Well, doom has been delayed at least

[MDS]

Before the beginning of the year there were a number of prognostications of doom and gloom for the ICS this year, a number of people were predicting car counts as low 19 for Infineon, which doesn't seem likely now unless a series of tragic events happen between now and then. We had 25 at Watkins Glen and we should be at 23/24 by the time the series rolls into Infineon later this year, and despite the predictions in Jan/Feb that the series might not make all of its stops after Indy, it looks like the ICS will continue for the foreseeable future.

It looks like things are actually getting better on many fronts instead of darker:

Ratings: While they haven't shown the improvement everyone would like, we are seeing an increase in the Versus ratings, and that's important because that is your dedicated fan base.

Small teams: Many said that HVM and Conquest would have a difficult time making it through the year and would need some "Help" after Indy. Certainly the season hasn't met Simona's expectations but the team appears solid through the end of the year. Conquest was expected to drop down to a partial one-car team after Indy, but is growing as a team and is finding sponsorship, having Angie's List on Bagett's car for a few weeks and now Ice-Watch.

Leadership: Despite the former leader's pledge of "Vision" Randy Bernard has done a stellar job in the first four months on the job. He's brought credibility and given the league a new start.

Yes there are some glaring problems, Graham Rahal is still out of a ride; Roger Penske has two sponsorless cars; I suspect Izod didn't so much come up with the additional money for RHR as much as shifted some of its commitment; the ratings haven't improved enough and attendance hasn't been great, but for now I'm hopeful.

[Phoenixent]

Roger Penske has two sponsorless cars

According to a Penske team member RJR is still paying the bills on those two cars for this year. They just could not have the classic paint job anymore do to some rules. Next year will be a telling year for Penske Racing on sponsorship for the 3 and 6 car.

[beachbum]

Before the beginning of the year there were a number of prognostications of doom and gloom for the ICS this year.....The "sky is falling" crowd is still around, blasting anything and everything related to the IRL. Some are still faithful to the "series that is no more" but haven't accepted that this is the new face of open wheel in the US.

I sometimes go to their old forum and read the posts of the dozen or so faithful who still wring their hands in glee at anything that is negative about the IRL as they still want it to fail. What they expect would replace it, I have no idea. But now that TG is gone, they lost their main focal point, so they blast everything else and regularly prognosticate that the series is ready to implode.

Some of those people now post here and on other forums. Most have accepted that time marches on and change is inevitable and make reasonable posts. But a few have never given up "hope" and still try to denigrate the IRL anyway they can. It is fun to compare what they post on that other forum and what they post here. They sometimes try to hide their disdain, but usually fail.

[px400r]

The "sky is falling" crowd is still around, blasting anything and everything related to the IRL. Some are still faithful to the "series that is no more" but haven't accepted that this is the new face of open wheel in the US.

I sometimes go to their old forum and read the posts of the dozen or so faithful who still wring their hands in glee at anything that is negative about the IRL as they still want it to fail. What they expect would replace it, I have no idea. But now that TG is gone, they lost their main focal point, so they blast everything else and regularly prognosticate that the series is ready to implode.

Some of those people now post here and on other forums. Most have accepted that time marches on and change is inevitable and make reasonable posts. But a few have never given up "hope" and still try to denigrate the IRL anyway they can. It is fun to compare what they post on that other forum and what they post here. They sometimes try to hide their disdain, but usually fail.

As is the "everthing is hunky-dory" crowd, crowing about how great things are (or will be)- just give it some time. Versus, Izod, Danica, and a new chassis will fix everything and restore Indy Car and the 500 to it's full glory.

They sometimes cast their eyes down in deference to the naked king, but usually fail.

[EagleEye]

Some people are "doom and gloomers". Others are pie in the sky dreamers.

Some are just living reality day to day, and tell it like it is.

The Good:

IZOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Races have been pretty decent

Versus coverage.

New rules for engines.

Randy Bernard!

Roger Penske paying for his three-car team.

Will Power.

Indy format.

RHR, TK, Dario, Dixon, Justin Wilson, Simona, HCN, and Briscoe.

The Bad:

17 PAYING drivers, (18 this past weekend) keeping the car counts up.

Lowest 500 ratings, ever.

NO improvement in ABC ratings.

We (teams, series officials) almost outnumberd the fans at the Glen!

Several teams (raises hand) on the bubble for next year.

The Ugly:

TV Ratings.

Milka Duno.

TV Ratings.

BB and his calling races.

TV Ratings.


IZOD, has been amazing. RB has equally impressed. And the racing has been quite good. But, the TV ratiings continue to dog us. Indy was a shock.

But RB has a plan, and so far he has people buying into it. Now go buy an IZOD shirt!

[Scotty G.]

1. Several teams (raises hand) on the bubble for next year.

2. But, the TV ratiings continue to dog us. Indy was a shock.




1. I have to think Conquest, AZZT, HVM, whatever is left of Newman/Haas and possibly Panther could be in trouble for 2011. Not sure how stable KV is either, as this season could put them in such a hole financially (despite each driver paying the team at least $5 million bucks to race) that they will be struggling to keep things going.

2. Why would anyone continue to be "shocked" by Indy's ratings? They have continued to go down by the year and there were the least amount of American drivers in the race in the almost 100 years of Indy 500's. Without Americans dominating the sport again in numbers, America is not going to pay attention. Doesn't matter who is in charge, who the series sponsor is, what cars are used or anything else.



And with the TEAM deal, all of these teams basically have to continue to show up for races. So nobody should be surprised that the small teams have soldiered on. Plus those small teams are all financed by drivers, so as long as those checkos cleared, they will continue to race.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ah yes....Scott has the answers.....

Scott, it isn't just the lack of Americans...I keep telling you that, but you keep whipping that horse. IT is a part of the puzzle but it is much more than that.

Personally, I think they hit rock bottom last year as a series. This year they will start to trend up.

I think a lot of teams will soldier on, and find ways to hang in, but I do agree with Scott on this point that the pay drivers are the issue. That said, how do teams survive without major sponsors if they don't take the ride buyer? Face this reality too, the ride buyer is just a driver with a sponsor looking for a team. Rather than a team with a sponsor looking for a driver. Sponsors like the former, we fans and team owners like the latter.

The drivers with sponsors are not the best drivers always, they just are the best at getting money, and if more American drivers of skill were better at this game, much of the complaints Scotty has would be made moot...

[EagleEye]

1. I have to think Conquest, AZZT, HVM, whatever is left of Newman/Haas and possibly Panther could be in trouble for 2011. Not sure how stable KV is either, as this season could put them in such a hole financially (despite each driver paying the team at least $5 million bucks to race) that they will be struggling to keep things going.

2. Why would anyone continue to be "shocked" by Indy's ratings? They have continued to go down by the year and there were the least amount of American drivers in the race in the almost 100 years of Indy 500's. Without Americans dominating the sport again in numbers, America is not going to pay attention. Doesn't matter who is in charge, who the series sponsor is, what cars are used or anything else.



And with the TEAM deal, all of these teams basically have to continue to show up for races. So nobody should be surprised that the small teams have soldiered on. Plus those small teams are all financed by drivers, so as long as those checkos cleared, they will continue to race.

Agree, sadly, on point 1. Ride buyers will be needed to save the day again.

As for the "shock" ratings for Indy, we all were told and expected a bump up for ratings based the increased exposure from Izod, additional marketing on ABC, and some other factors. The only projection for ratings going down was if there was rain, and ABC and the production crew had some good stuff to run with to hold the ratings if we had that issue, which we didn't.

I was among many who thought for sure that the Indy rating would trend upward, so that is what I mean by it being a shock to us.

While I agree a lack of America drivers is one reason, I recall good ratings in Champcar when several non-americans did well. I talked to one persone at the Glen that indicated his disgust with all the ride buyers, which might be the heart of the problem. Most those who follow open wheel are fairly smart, and I assume many are getting tired of those who have paid for rides, while those like Rahal, and others who have earned rides sit and wait.

God Bless Izod though as they look to stand pat and give it a go for another year.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ride buyers are the only thing keeping some of these teams going unfortunately. As I said, the old method of having a team and a sponsor and putting a DESERVING driver in the seat just isn't going to work. The sponsors look for drivers....

[SoCalPVguy]

Unfortunately I think doom has only been delayed. Yes the car count is good but trouble signs for next year abound:

1. The VERSUS deal is a killer an assures that even a fine on track product won't be seen by any significant number of people, which leads to...

2. Lack of sponsorships due to both the low rating for the network that isn't seen any way, and coupled with...

3. A poor economy, some experts liken to 1932 depression all over again --- high taxes, high forced health care costs, and disincentives from a socialist ideologue congress and president prevent businesses for having discretionary cash for optional type sports marketing (hurts all sports, but hurts marginal specialty sports like Indy racing more than say the NFL), there is no 'recovery' now and next year will be worse, as evidenced by ...

4. IZOD's apparent upcoming pull back of sponsorship money next year, which could lead to ...

5. Small teams with already thin sponsorship being in real trouble, that causes...

6. These small teams to rely on no name foreign "ride buyer" drivers to stay afloat, which results in ...

7. Lack of fan knowledge and familiarity with no name foreign drivers, lessening their interest and causing ...

8. Even LESS people watching VERSUS and starting the cycle again.

[SoCalPVguy]

I was among many who thought for sure that the Indy rating would trend upward, so that is what I mean by it being a shock to us.

I was one of those who thought that after "unification" that the Indy 500 rating would go up as these will be no further market confusion. However it looks like people who can't find the other races on VERSUS gave up entirely and didn't even try to watch ABC.

[MDS]

I'm not saying its perfect, its going to take some time to turn the sport around, but I believe its heading in the right direction, and I haven't been able to say that years. Yes it could still go in the tank, but there were some people on this forum hinting that the IRL could cease to operate at the end of the year, it doesn't look like that is going to happen and hopefully the teams are starting to build a decent foundation.

There is a future for Open Wheel Racing in this country, its just going to look take longer than most would like and look different than what we expect.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Unfortunately I think doom has only been delayed. Yes the car count is good but trouble signs for next year abound:

1. The VERSUS deal is a killer an assures that even a fine on track product won't be seen by any significant number of people, which leads to...

2. Lack of sponsorships due to both the low rating for the network that isn't seen any way, and coupled with...

3. A poor economy, some experts liken to 1932 depression all over again --- high taxes, high forced health care costs, and disincentives from a socialist ideologue congress and president prevent businesses for having discretionary cash for optional type sports marketing (hurts all sports, but hurts marginal specialty sports like Indy racing more than say the NFL), there is no 'recovery' now and next year will be worse, as evidenced by ...

4. IZOD's apparent upcoming pull back of sponsorship money next year, which could lead to ...

5. Small teams with already thin sponsorship being in real trouble, that causes...

6. These small teams to rely on no name foreign "ride buyer" drivers to stay afloat, which results in ...

7. Lack of fan knowledge and familiarity with no name foreign drivers, lessening their interest and causing ...

8. Even LESS people watching VERSUS and starting the cycle again.

Some of those I agree with, some I don't, but I just hope you are dead wrong on all of it.....

[SoCalPVguy]

Some of those I agree with, some I don't, but I just hope you are dead wrong on all of it.....

I love open wheel racing too and hope I am wrong, but...

1. I am certain the bad Versus deal will eventually be the death of us.

2. I doubt any one here or the general public realizes how bad our economy is now with rising taxes to support unchecked govt spending where the all time national debt is approaching $13 trillion, we are only months away for potentially becoming greece with our debt to gross product ratios. There will be no corporate money for optional things like niche sport openwheel autoracing sponsorships, and spare capital presently sitting on the sidelines due to uncertainty will be shifted to other countries such as china to avoid confiscation by the ideologue socialist president and congresss now in power. Predict no change in our economy until 1/23/2013.

[DBell]

2. I doubt any one here or the general public realizes how bad our economy is now with rising taxes to support unchecked govt spending where the all time national debt is approaching $13 trillion, we are only months away for potentially becoming greece with our debt to gross product ratios. There will be no corporate money for optional things like niche sport openwheel autoracing sponsorships, and spare capital presently sitting on the sidelines due to uncertainty will be shifted to other countries such as china to avoid confiscation by the ideologue socialist president and congresss now in power. Predict no change in our economy until 1/23/2013.

Thanks for the right wing editorial.

[grungex]

I doubt any one here or the general public realizes how bad our economy is now with rising taxes to support unchecked govt spending where the all time national debt is approaching $13 trillion, we are only months away for potentially becoming greece with our debt to gross product ratios. There will be no corporate money for optional things like niche sport openwheel autoracing sponsorships, and spare capital presently sitting on the sidelines due to uncertainty will be shifted to other countries such as china to avoid confiscation by the ideologue socialist president and congresss now in power. Predict no change in our economy until 1/23/2013.

Do you you have to spout your right-wing crap in every thread? Go to TF, they'll welcome you with open pitchforks...

[SoCalPVguy]

Thanks for the right wing editorial.
You are welcome, unfortunately the poor economic situation is affecting our sport.

[elan 02]

I would not jump to hard on SoCal for his non racing post. He is very near the truth about how many of us view the current State of Affairs. He mite be wise to post that elsewhere?

[Jag_Warrior]

All I know is, the people and companies who have solid business plans are still making money in this country. Not as much as before maybe, but anyone who can't roll with the punches is doomed to failure anyway. And any company whose business success depends on a +/- 3% change in the marginal tax rate, I would look to short sell that company as quickly as I could. If the only time you can make money is in the best of times, you're not good, you've just been lucky... dumb lucky. And any CEO dumb enough to shut down operations here, so that he could escape "socialism" (:rolleyes :) , and move to a state managed economy run by unabashed communists, where intellectual property rights (and human rights) mean next to nothing, ASK THAT MAN FOR A CHECK RIGHT NOW! Get him to sponsor five or six cars, or hell, the whole dang series! He's clearly an idiot, so you could promise him anything and he'd believe it. Get as much money as possible up front though. It's going to be an MCI/WorldCom type deal, so ya gotta take the money and run (fast!).

I got an interesting email today from an old pal and former co-worker. We shared a deep interest in cars and racing, so we fast became friends, even though he worked for a different division than I did. It seems that his division is sponsoring Kevin Harvick Racing now. It's not the first time the conglomerate has dipped its toe into NASCAR, but we had typically been an open wheel sponsor since the early 90's. I asked him how Harvick got the deal. He said quite dryly, "He asked." :dozey: Hell, who woulda ever thought of that?! Ask! I wonder what Ivy League MBA program Kevin and DeLana attended to learn that complex business strategy???

If Michael Andretti and the other IRL team owners could cobble together a business proposal that made sense for a sponsor, and had something of value to offer, perhaps they could get more real sponsors too (instead of just ride buyers). Yeah, I know... more crazy talk, huh? NASCAR and its teams understand that sponsors aren't there to help the teams or the series. They're there so that the teams and the series can help THEM! CART forgot that. CCWS never figured it out. And the IRL (and some of its fans) continues to be a little ball lost in the tall grass on that topic. Companies are still spending money on sponsorships... for those that have the b#lls and good sense to get off their butts and ask for it. Stop crying in your soup and go out there and get some of it!!!

[call_me_andrew]

Guys, I'm very sorry for what this, but I have to get political.


I doubt any one here or the general public realizes how bad our economy is now with rising taxes to support unchecked govt spending where the all time national debt is approaching $13 trillion, we are only months away for potentially becoming greece with our debt to gross product ratios. There will be no corporate money for optional things like niche sport openwheel autoracing sponsorships, and spare capital presently sitting on the sidelines due to uncertainty will be shifted to other countries such as china to avoid confiscation by the ideologue socialist president and congresss now in power. Predict no change in our economy until 1/23/2013.

1. No one is actively raising taxes.

2. Assuming debt trends remain constant, the U.S. is years away from entering a Greece-like situation. Greece's problems are grossly inflated (no pun intended) by sharing the Euro; it cannot devalue it's own currency to minimize it's debt.

3. If the United States was nearing a debt crisis, the dollar would be inflating like mad right now. Inflation is remarkably low right now.

[Chris R]

I guess the economy is not exactly off topic as it is at the root of at least some of the major problems facing AOWR....

I have to at least partially agree with soCal. The economy is worse than many perceive it at the moment... I am self employed and have been my entire life (4th generation in a family horticulture business). The problem with this economy is that the last "boom" was not all that much of a boom for many sectors of the economy.... By the end of the boom, margins had shrunk tremendously due to increased production (at least in our industry) so profitability was already an issue even if cash flow was not. Much of the "prosperity" of the last boom was "on paper" and that supposed wealth has entirely evaporated but the debt it supported in both the public and private sectors continues.

Our business is down approaching 40% in the past 3 years and that is average for our industry in our region of the country - sadly enough our region is outperforming most of the rest of the nation in the horticulture industry. There is no realistic sign of recovery in our industry anytime soon. My ties in the business community seem to indicate to me that other sectors of the economy are in no better condition....

To top it off the someone decides to tell us the economy is IMPROVING because the unemployment rate has gone down because 1.5 million people GAVE UP??? The report actually said the economy lost 125,000 jobs last month but the unemployment rate went down??? HUH??? I do not pretend to know the answers nor will I speculate on the cause - but let be real and honest - the economy is terrible and it has a direct effect on the ability of any sport to attract sponsors and operate a profitable AND SUSTAINABLE enterprise....

To answer someones assertion earlier - yes, a 3% marginal tax rate could affect a business' ability to survive in this economy that has now been a mess for 3 years running with no signs of improvement... especially if you have tapped out your personal capital and depend on funds obtained from the banking sector too move forward/survive until the economy finally improves in 3-5 years.....

so yes, this is a MAJOR issue for the IRL (and will be for all other sports requiring sponsorship as time goes on and current contracts expire...)

[DBell]

I would not jump to hard on SoCal for his non racing post. He is very near the truth about how many of us view the current State of Affairs. He mite be wise to post that elsewhere?

SoCal often puts in his editorials with his post and I, for one, come to this section to talk about racing. I don't come here to read Republican or Democratic editorials. As you state in your last sentence, there is a place in this forum to talk about this and I would like it to be kept there.

[SarahFan]

bottomline is the D&G was delayed and hopefully eliminated when mom and the sisters removed the cancer

is there much still to do? obvioslt there is, it wont happen overnite......... but thankfully leadership has a clue

[Chris R]

bottomline is the D&G was delayed and hopefully eliminated when mom and the sisters removed the cancer

is there much still to do? obvioslt there is, it wont happen overnite......... but thankfully leadership has a clue

good assessment and sorry to everyone for my wordy mostly off topic post - I did want to re-enforce the point that the economy is a big deal in any D&G about our sport....

[SarahFan]

The report actually said the economy lost 125,000 jobs last month but the unemployment rate went down???


hmmmm....sounds like a AOWR attendance and TV ratings

maybe a couple forum memebers wrote the unempolyment report!


*ken ducks and runs

[Chris R]

hmmmm....sounds like a AOWR attendance and TV ratings

maybe a couple forum memebers wrote the unempolyment report!


*ken ducks and runs

or the attendance counters for several of the old champ car races... (sorry I was a champ car guy but some of the attendance numbers were beyond belief....)
:D

[Jag_Warrior]

Just to be clear, what I said was: "And any company whose business success depends on a +/- 3% change in the marginal tax rate..."

I didn't say or mean survival. We're talking about two totally different conditions there. If a business is in survival mode, then of course any incremental increase in after tax net (whether by way of a small tax cut or ANY increase in revenues) is going to be a big deal. That business is simply trying to make it to the next quarter... or maybe the next pay period. But that is not success. That is not a business that would suddenly be in a position to sign a strong sponsorship deal and then be able to actually activate that sponsorship, just because the marginal tax rate is 3% lower. That's a business with a sales or revenue problem, first and foremost. Even with a tax cut, such a business is, or should be looking to cut costs. And sponsorship, being an expense, would probably be the first line item to get slashed.

Is the economy hurting the IRL? Sure. It's hurting NASCAR, F1 and most every other series in the world too. But even before the recession, and when unemployment was much lower than it is now, the IRL was not growing and had NEVER turned a profit. The down global economy is simply highlighting a condition that already existed. And when I hear of sponsors, which HAD BEEN open wheel sponsors, signing deals with second tier NASCAR series (ya know... just cause the owner ASKED), it confirms that the problem isn't JUST the economy. If it's true that Izod is getting cold feet, I'd say it has more to do with the IRL's failure to deliver on the ratings and ROI front than it does with the economy.

Does the IRL have a sponsor contingency program? What's the official beer, hotel, airline, bank, auto parts supplier, etc. of the IRL? If they have any of those things, I've not heard a word about it. Keeping a sponsorship on the QT/down low is probably not the best way to maintain or get more sponsors. I don't know all that much about marketing or sponsorships. But I went to a sponsor round table in Charlotte years ago. And while it was mainly just for fun (and to get out of the office for a few days), it seemed pretty clear that sponsors wanted something in return for their $. Something more than just the satisfaction of knowing that they were enabling an otherwise broke team to field a car.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Jag, you say the IRL owners should be asking? I will just say provide me with proof they are not? Scotty spouts this crap off all the time that the team owners are whiners wait for the money to come to them. I would love someone to talk to a Roger Penske and say that, or a Jimmy Vasser.

I think the IRL is not a great product to put a lot of money into right now....the TV package doesn't work and THAT is the problem I think holding off any serious sponsors outside of some niche marketing.

[anthonyvop]

I don't think most people realize how important it is for the IRL to post a significant improvement quickly.

They are planning on introducing a new engine and chassis package for the 2012.

How many teams can afford to basically toss their cars and parts and other sundry equipment in the garbage and buy all new equipment? Many teams today survive by buying used tubs and parts from other teams.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't think most people realize how important it is for the IRL to post a significant improvement quickly.

They are planning on introducing a new engine and chassis package for the 2012.

How many teams can afford to basically toss their cars and parts and other sundry equipment in the garbage and buy all new equipment? Many teams today survive by buying used tubs and parts from other teams.

How did all those nearly bankrupt CCWS teams buy DP-01's? The one constant in racing is the constant whine that the sport is too expensive. You have guys like Jack Roush complaining about the costs of NASCAR when it is he and other's that have pushed the envelope on what it is to be competitive. It is the same in the IRL. Team owners will complain about it, and in THEIR CASE they have a point BUT at some point, if this series is going to step forward; new cars and new technology has to be on the menu. They haven't bought new tubs really for years.....

At some point, a new car would have been required, and it has been postponed long enough. Pay up, or get out....

[anthonyvop]

How did all those nearly bankrupt CCWS teams buy DP-01's? The one constant in racing is the constant whine that the sport is too expensive. You have guys like Jack Roush complaining about the costs of NASCAR when it is he and other's that have pushed the envelope on what it is to be competitive. It is the same in the IRL. Team owners will complain about it, and in THEIR CASE they have a point BUT at some point, if this series is going to step forward; new cars and new technology has to be on the menu. They haven't bought new tubs really for years.....

At some point, a new car would have been required, and it has been postponed long enough. Pay up, or get out....

The Champ Car Panoz were subsidized by the 3 amigos. Actually most were owned by the series and leased to the teams.....and we all know what happened after a year of that program.

I agree that racing is expensive and if you can't afford it get out.

but

Can the IRL stand a total rebuild if the sponsor situation doesn't improve significantly?

[chuck34]

Just to be clear, what I said was: "And any company whose business success depends on a +/- 3% change in the marginal tax rate..."

..snip...



You are right, but there isn't just one cut-off level (success/failure). We are talking about companies who want to sponsor race cars here. And there are marginal levels there as well. So yes, the successfull companies will be the ones sponsoring cars. However, if you now go and impose 3% more taxes on them what are they going to do with their racing sponsorship?

Hint: do you think that the budget they allot to the sponsorship is more or less than 3% of their profits?

[Jag_Warrior]

Jag, you say the IRL owners should be asking? I will just say provide me with proof they are not? Scotty spouts this crap off all the time that the team owners are whiners wait for the money to come to them. I would love someone to talk to a Roger Penske and say that, or a Jimmy Vasser.

I think the IRL is not a great product to put a lot of money into right now....the TV package doesn't work and THAT is the problem I think holding off any serious sponsors outside of some niche marketing.

I can only tell you that no one related to the IRL or its teams has approached the company that my pal works for and I used to work for (AFAIK). It's not a big one, but Kevin and DeLana got that deal, so too late now. I'm sure they're asking some companies. But what are they asking for? Whatever you ask for has to be within reason. Gerry Forsythe once insisted that he was NOT going to accept a primary sponsorship for less than a certain amount of money ($5 or $7 million... I can't remember which). I understand these guys have to meet the costs of running, or they might as well sit at home. But what have I been saying for about 8 years now... that everyone continues to gloss over? As much as everybody loves to talk about cutting costs and making things affordable, you also have to make sure that there is a sufficient amount of value in what you're selling. It's the value side of the IRL (and the old CCWS) that has suffered. Cutting costs is great. It's great that you got the costs down from $10 million to $7 million (for example). But you're still not going to get someone to give you $7 million for something that has a market value of say, $3-$5 million. My uncle is all gaga trying to get me to meet him in Arizona so we can look at these "great deals". There's all these "$250K houses that can be bought for $95K or less." I don't give a flip how much it cost to build them three or four years ago (and I'm sure it was $200K+)... all they're worth now is what the market values them at: $95K +/-. And that's not my idea of a great deal.

The TV package doesn't work. OK, why doesn't it work and what are they going to do about it? Seriously. Why are the ratings, mainly for Indy, down so much year-to-year? That's not a question for you or me, Mark. We can speculate, but we don't REALLY know. That's a question that any meaningful sponsor is going to ask when approached, and I'm not sure that anyone within the IRL or its teams has a believable answer to it.

I'm not doom & gloom. I just watch the races when it's convenient. And after that, on the track or off, what happens happens. I don't have a dog in the fight. But like with any business that has fundamental issues, the economy isn't going to "fix" the IRL's problems, because the state of the economy isn't the root cause of the IRL's problems, IMO.

[Jag_Warrior]

You are right, but there isn't just one cut-off level (success/failure). We are talking about companies who want to sponsor race cars here. And there are marginal levels there as well. So yes, the successfull companies will be the ones sponsoring cars. However, if you now go and impose 3% more taxes on them what are they going to do with their racing sponsorship?

Hint: do you think that the budget they allot to the sponsorship is more or less than 3% of their profits?

No, it's not so much that they want to sponsor race cars. They want to invest in marketing activities that produce some sort of meaningful returns... whether it be racing or additional ads on Dancing With the Stars. When I went to that thing in Charlotte, a lot of the companies present were new to racing. They were just on a fact finding mission. But they came to see it as the next big thing, because NASCAR was still growing very fast back then. And the thing with NASCAR is and was: fan loyalty to sponsoring brands is nothing short of amazing. As much as we may like to poke fun at DanicaFan, he is close to the typical hardcore NASCAR fan - and that gives a sponsor a warm feeling as they write that check.

A 3% increase or decrease in MARGINAL tax rates would not affect profits by 3%. But I do understand your point just the same. A "meaningful" increase or decrease in net profits is likely going to affect decisions made on costs. True. And as has been said, sponsorships are costs/expenses related to advertising and marketing. We can look at Dupont. When sales fell dramatically, they had to sharply decrease their marketing costs last fiscal year, to the point that Jeff Gordon even offered to take a salary cut. A lot of other companies did the same. So yes, they were looking at costs. But they were also looking at the returns on whatever dollars they were still spending. For probably a quarter of what they spent in NASCAR, they could have easily had a fully funded IRL team (or maybe two) instead. Why didn't they, or any of the other major NASCAR sponsors make that move? ;)

Would a 3% +/- adjustment in the marginal tax rate affect SOME racing sponsorships? Maybe... possibly in some marginal cases. I doubt that it would mean anything off the margin, but I don't know that for a fact. What I do know is that if one series typically and consistently offers a higher ROI than another series, no matter what the marginal tax rates are, that series will have fewer issues finding sponsorships. The demographics for the sponsor that Kev and DeLana got WOULD have been ideal for open wheel... years ago. Now, who knows what the demographics for open wheel even look like? I have no idea. About all that's being discussed is letting the Bush tax cuts expire. So answer me this, did IRL sponsorships suddenly go through the roof when those cuts were enacted and have they remained at some high level, or has sponsorship basically followed the same downtrending line as the ratings and viewership??? I think the correlation (and also the causation) relates more to that than the marginal tax rates.

Also, I think back to when McLaren-Mercedes got tagged with that $100 million fine a couple of years back. On a board where I used to post, some fans speculated that McLaren and/or Mercedes would/should come to Champ Car. For $100 million, they could have bought CCWS a few times over, right? They meant well. But as fans often do, they were thinking with their hearts and not their heads. McLaren-Mercedes had no more intention of coming to CCWS than Dupont does of coming to the IRL... or than I do of scampering off to Arizona to look at a bunch of foreclosed houses that are probably still selling for more than they'll be worth in 6 months. The government can cut my tax rate in half, but a bad investment is still a bad investment, and I'm not going to do it. And neither is any CEO who enjoys being employed.

[chuck34]

I get your point about ROI. And yes the ROI on the IRL isn't as good as it should be right now. We all see that. But the ROI isn't going to increase by much in the next few years, no matter what anyone does. A new TV deal won't help that (besides the TV deal itself is a factor of the ROI), TG being run off didn't help that, unification didn't help that, and cost cutting hasn't helped that. So we are where we are. Therefore a 3% increase in taxes (yes I know what marginal tax rates mean, I worded that badly last time although the point is still valid) will only HURT sponsorship on IRL cars.

So the question really is how do we increase the ROI of the series? I would suggest, looking at the evidence, that we should stop with all the "cost cutting" measures, allow anyone who wants to make a chassis, engine, or any other widget to make them. Sure it will hurt in the short term by driving up costs a bit (maybe), but it's the long-term health of the series that we need to look at. Facts are facts, fans are more and more turning off "spec" series. Look no further than NASCAR's decline in TV and attendance. F1 is very popular worldwide, and the ALMS seems to still have a pretty good following despite amazingly low car counts.

[Scotty G.]

Scotty spouts this crap off all the time that the team owners are whiners wait for the money to come to them. I would love someone to talk to a Roger Penske and say that, or a Jimmy Vasser.




I'd love to say that to Vasser. Its 100% the truth.

All Vasser has done in 2010, is take a lot of very good cars with very good equipment and tear it all to hell because he took 3 driver's BIG checks (all over 5 million dollars) instead of doing what professional race owners are SUPPOSED to be able to do...find the money for YOUR team and hire the drivers (instead of the other way around).

Vasser has a horse-**** team now and he and Kalkhoven are the ones that have to take the blame for it.

[anthonyvop]

instead of doing what professional race owners are SUPPOSED to be able to do...find the money for YOUR team and hire the drivers (instead of the other way around).



Just like all the NASCAR teams...........Oh.......Sorry.

[Jag_Warrior]

I get your point about ROI. And yes the ROI on the IRL isn't as good as it should be right now. We all see that. But the ROI isn't going to increase by much in the next few years, no matter what anyone does. A new TV deal won't help that (besides the TV deal itself is a factor of the ROI), TG being run off didn't help that, unification didn't help that, and cost cutting hasn't helped that. So we are where we are. Therefore a 3% increase in taxes (yes I know what marginal tax rates mean, I worded that badly last time although the point is still valid) will only HURT sponsorship on IRL cars.

So the question really is how do we increase the ROI of the series? I would suggest, looking at the evidence, that we should stop with all the "cost cutting" measures, allow anyone who wants to make a chassis, engine, or any other widget to make them. Sure it will hurt in the short term by driving up costs a bit (maybe), but it's the long-term health of the series that we need to look at. Facts are facts, fans are more and more turning off "spec" series. Look no further than NASCAR's decline in TV and attendance. F1 is very popular worldwide, and the ALMS seems to still have a pretty good following despite amazingly low car counts.

The best that I can give you, Chuck, is that anything which affects the overall economy MAY affect IRL sponsorships. So yeah, a company that now says, "No!" may end up saying "Hell no!" if business conditions get worse.

I don't know why NASCAR's numbers are down. The COT is quite ugly, IMO. But at the same time, one driver and team has been completely dominating the series. F1's TV numbers fell off the longer Schumacher dominated that series. So while there may be a correlation to spec racing and falling popularity, I don't know that there is causation.

As for what the IRL can do to increase ROI, since I have no idea at this point, I'll just agree with whatever ideas you may have. My idea of enlisting some Zetas to kidnap high profile NASCAR drivers' family members, forcing them to race part time in the IRL and at the Indy 500 might be considered a bit radical. Short of that, I am a believer in the power of prayer. So I'll suggest that too.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'd love to say that to Vasser. Its 100% the truth.

All Vasser has done in 2010, is take a lot of very good cars with very good equipment and tear it all to hell because he took 3 driver's BIG checks (all over 5 million dollars) instead of doing what professional race owners are SUPPOSED to be able to do...find the money for YOUR team and hire the drivers (instead of the other way around).

Vasser has a horse-**** team now and he and Kalkhoven are the ones that have to take the blame for it.

Scotty, that is assuming someone was going to give him the 5 million to put the car on the track. Corporate America quit doing that a long time ago with IRL/CART/CCWS teams. You think Vasser just fell out of an apple tree on his head yesterday? I know he is taking the money hoping like hell one of these idiots can win a race or two and get him some legitmacy before they destroy everything but that is the reality. KK didn't get rich by being stupid Scott. You think he wouldn't rather do it the other way? God knows he saw how the CCWS imploded.....it cost him a ton of money and yet he sticks around trying to make things go.

I aint saying you are wrong in ride buyers being a problem, but it isn't a problem if you pick the ones with talent as opposed to just money. on THAT, Vasser and KK are idiots because I could have told them both Sato was out to lunch and Viso was a loser.

The sad part is though Scott, and here is where you theory falls apart, is a guy like RHR isn't getting the support from Corporate America outside of IZOD and THAT wasn't supposed to be what it is turning into. PT, the most marketable name from CART's era and the CCWS cannot get funding from anyone in America for a full time ride, yet gives some of the best press interviews and is likely the best guy to have creating press for the circuit. Corporate America, which gives millions to idiot basketball players who barely can speak the language wont give it up for a Canadian who is as brash and entertaining as any American. What is more, they wont give it up for a talented young guy like Reay or Rahal. Don't tell me they haven't tried looking either.....If the companies wont back the drivers, and they wont back the teams...it leads us back to they wont back the series.

[px400r]

I'd love to say that to Vasser. Its 100% the truth.

All Vasser has done in 2010, is take a lot of very good cars with very good equipment and tear it all to hell because he took 3 driver's BIG checks (all over 5 million dollars) instead of doing what professional race owners are SUPPOSED to be able to do...find the money for YOUR team and hire the drivers (instead of the other way around).

Vasser has a horse-**** team now and he and Kalkhoven are the ones that have to take the blame for it.

So easy to say (and post) for someone who doesn't have to do it or risk anything...

[chuck34]

The best that I can give you, Chuck, is that anything which affects the overall economy MAY affect IRL sponsorships. So yeah, a company that now says, "No!" may end up saying "Hell no!" if business conditions get worse.

I don't know why NASCAR's numbers are down. The COT is quite ugly, IMO. But at the same time, one driver and team has been completely dominating the series. F1's TV numbers fell off the longer Schumacher dominated that series. So while there may be a correlation to spec racing and falling popularity, I don't know that there is causation.

As for what the IRL can do to increase ROI, since I have no idea at this point, I'll just agree with whatever ideas you may have. My idea of enlisting some Zetas to kidnap high profile NASCAR drivers' family members, forcing them to race part time in the IRL and at the Indy 500 might be considered a bit radical. Short of that, I am a believer in the power of prayer. So I'll suggest that too.

Or a sponsor that says ok now to a little bit, may end up saying no. Or a primary sponsor now may fall to an associate level. Etc. I don't belive that most companies in the IRL will stay at the same funding levels after a tax increase (contract dependent). And that does of course, also factor in ROI issues as you rightly pointed out.

[Jag_Warrior]

Or a sponsor that says ok now to a little bit, may end up saying no. Or a primary sponsor now may fall to an associate level. Etc. I don't belive that most companies in the IRL will stay at the same funding levels after a tax increase (contract dependent). And that does of course, also factor in ROI issues as you rightly pointed out.

Two things (for our discussion) happened in the early to mid 90's: Clinton raised taxes and NASCAR went up, up & away. CART was also still raking in some really nice deals back then too. If the IRL teams could sell their primary sponsorships for what we spent on major associate sponsorships back then, they could declare themselves successful. A tax cut or a tax increase doesn't do much for the IRL's relative value on a team by team basis. That's really what the IRL is fighting here. Tax rates aside, how do you convince a sponsor that he should spend $5 million in the IRL and get a payback of maybe 1/1, when he can invest $15 million in NASCAR Cup and get a 5/1 payback? Even worse, he can go to Nationwide and probably get 3/1 for about what he'd spend in the IRL. Or... he could spend less and probably get the same payback in the truck series.

I can't move around much right now. So I've been amusing myself over the past few days by looking back through hard drive folders with old CART pictures. It is truly amazing how many of the sponsors that were once in CART (and then the IRL) that are now in NASCAR... or somewhere else. I sure do miss the Tecate Girls. Yeppers, I do. :s mokin:

This is just flat sad. It's going to take a lot more than a tax cut to fix this.

IZOD Indy Car Series Official Sponsors (http://www.indycar.com/default/content/34236-sponsors/)

Give the Zetas some thought before dismissing them. Gordon, Stewart, Montoya, Johnson... ya want Scott Speed and Allmendinger too? The series needs drivers that people do (or can) care about. On that point, I believe that Scotty G. is absolutely correct.

[Mark in Oshawa]

A tax break for sponsoring sport would be the ideal, but it isn't really something that would politically fly.

The IRL just has to soldier on making its product more viable, better on TV, better show in person and more competitive and interesting to the casual fan. If they can trend the curve upwards, then the advertisers and Fortune 500 people will pay more attention.

[Jag_Warrior]

How many teams can afford to basically toss their cars and parts and other sundry equipment in the garbage and buy all new equipment? Many teams today survive by buying used tubs and parts from other teams.

I think that's the $64,000 question. As CCWS found out, moving to a new chassis formula isn't cheap, and involves a lot more than just buying the chassis. But we'll see. I read somewhere that the IRL might allow the current cars to run with the new cars. But that assumes that Honda would be willing to supply and service two totally different engine specs (one turbo and one N.A.).

But you're correct: the antique/used race car market has kept many of these teams on the grid. So it'll be interesting to see how they deal with having to buy new ones (and parts, tooling, etc.). Maybe the IRL will buy a certain number of chassis and lease them back to the teams?

[Bob Riebe]

A tax break for sponsoring sport would be the ideal, but it isn't really something that would politically fly.

The IRL just has to soldier on making its product more viable, better on TV, better show in person and more competitive and interesting to the casual fan. If they can trend the curve upwards, then the advertisers and Fortune 500 people will pay more attention.
You do remember that when sports car racing owners could no longer write off the racing expenses, that is when sports car racing as a mostly non-paying sport, was replaced by sports car racing mostly FOR MONEY.

I do not think that the government, much less THIS ONE, is going to go back the fifties when owners raced because they could write off their racing expenses.

[Mark in Oshawa]

You do remember that when sports car racing owners could no longer write off the racing expenses, that is when sports car racing as a mostly non-paying sport, was replaced by sports car racing mostly FOR MONEY.

I do not think that the government, much less THIS ONE, is going to go back the fifties when owners raced because they could write off their racing expenses.

Exactly what I was thinking when I said it. Politically it wont fly....