IRL Safety Team = Epic Fail

[anthonyvop]

I watched today's race from Watkins Glen on my DVR. Watching Simona's wreck I waited for the arrival of the safety team in anticipation of seeing a marked improvement.

There wasn't.

I re-winded and timed it.

From the time the Yellow came on on the ABC feed till the arrival of the Safety Team truck a excruciating 1:23.5 past.

I realize that on a road course it can take a little longer than on an Oval but almost one and a half minutes is unacceptable.

[call_me_andrew]

Back in the old country, you were lucky if the safety team came at all. And when they did come, all they did was throw you into the fire.

I'm not sure why they were called the safety team.

[Easy Drifter]

My understanding is they will not dispatch the Safety Team until the entire field is under the control of the Safety Car. I might be wrong on that.
That may work on an oval but it is not satisfactory on a road course with much lower speeds and usually a longer track.
If it is the case IC must stop their USAC type hidebound thinking and adapt before someone dies.

[markabilly]

stupid once again... :rolleyes:

But it was quicker than easy's favorite old fart doctor, got to RS when he smashed the wall at Indy F1 race....while a safety crew and ambulance right a few hundred yards away was forced to wait until the ole doc figured out he needed help getting him out of the car since RS had a fairly serious back injury, and those who finally showed up did not have the muscle to get it done :rolleyes:

[call_me_andrew]

Mark, I think the main issues with F1's safety protocol are that:

1. The only ambulance is the medical car.
2. The medical car must travel in the same direction as traffic.

Ralf crashed near the pit entrance (far away from any marshals), so the medical car (once dispatched) had to travel the entire lenght of the track before it got to Ralf.

[markabilly]

Mark, I think the main issues with F1's safety protocol are that:

1. The only ambulance is the medical car.
2. The medical car must travel in the same direction as traffic.

Ralf crashed near the pit entrance (far away from any marshals), so the medical car (once dispatched) had to travel the entire lenght of the track before it got to Ralf.


protocal bs....just like the irl so it seems....plenty of safety crews were all over that track, including an ambulance and a crash truck probably 200 to three hunderd yards away in the vicinity of between the last banked corner and the next to last corner...perhaps from CC, I dunno, but there they sat, while I sat and watched

and those were the guys that finally pulled him out, when they were finally permitted to respond after being required to sit there for about five or more minutes by race control

I know as i sat there and watched

[anthonyvop]

stupid once again... :rolleyes:

But it was quicker than easy's favorite old fart doctor, got to RS when he smashed the wall at Indy F1 race....while a safety crew and ambulance right a few hundred yards away was forced to wait until the ole doc figured out he needed help getting him out of the car since RS had a fairly serious back injury, and those who finally showed up did not have the muscle to get it done :rolleyes:


Please spare me "the other guys" argument. What they did in F-1 years ago is irrelevant the the discussion.

We are talking about the IRL.

Today Simona sat in a heavily damaged car for almost a minute and a half before the safety crew pulled up.
That is unacceptable for even a SCCA club race let alone what is suppose the premier series in North America.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It is unacceptable, but it is just another case of pride going ahead of common sense. The best safety team in the world was mothballed and let go when the CCWS was folded up. Out of all the parts and pieces the IRL took from the CCWS, THAT should have been the first, but stupidity and pride dictated those guys were not required. Now twice in one year someone's safety was jeopardized for this stupidity. I think owners like Penske and Ganassi need to lean on Bernard, Barnhart and the like and get some changes made before someone suffers an injury or disability due to the dopey way things are being done...

1:23? My god, at Mosport our safety/med teams are quicker than that for club racing...

[Easy Drifter]

It appears IC will not use any 'local' rescue/safety crews. Not sure but it looks that way. At the Glen you have a 3.4 mile track so you could easily be talking over a mile and a half away. If they were to run Elkhart 2 miles!
Loaded as they are and from a standing start with hills and slow turns thrown in just using two vehicles and crews is not acceptable.
Maybe you do want them there for a major extraction but local crews could handle fires etc.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It appears IC will not use any 'local' rescue/safety crews. Not sure but it looks that way. At the Glen you have a 3.4 mile track so you could easily be talking over a mile and a half away. If they were to run Elkhart 2 miles!
Loaded as they are and from a standing start with hills and slow turns thrown in just using two vehicles and crews is not acceptable.
Maybe you do want them there for a major extraction but local crews could handle fires etc.

Here is a brainstorm? Why have only one rescue response unit? How about have 2 or 3? CART/CCWS did? What is more, as we saw in Texas, even when they do arrive, it is Keystone Cops time. They are a joke....

[Easy Drifter]

They do have two. On road courses especially long ones more are needed. Many local/track teams are quite good.
I commented quite a bit in one of my regular columns in the Garage Blog on safety issues and not just on IC.
F1, NASCAR, ALMS, IC and Grand Am plus others had better take a good look at their procedures.
For some reason fires seem to be occurring more frequently and if anything magnesium gets going it is extremely difficult to extinguish.

[call_me_andrew]

These days fires are more likey to be oil related than fuel related, so I guess that's some sort of win.

[Easy Drifter]

Fire is fire. It is the thing most drivers fear the most. I know I did.
Today I would never drive with the lack of protection I and everyone else did in the dark ages.
When I started I drove in a Tee shirt and jeans!
In my last car my right knee rested against one of my aluminum fuel tanks slung outside the tube frame protected by the thin fibregass body. No bladder or foam.
One layer nomex suit and underwear. Nomex bandana and open face helmet. String back gloves and boxing boots. No full face helmets or multi layer suits then. No nomex gloves, balaclavas, socks or boots. The first year I wore nomex it was one of 26 suits in Canada!
Yes we were nuts but that was all there was.

[markabilly]

Please spare me "the other guys" argument. What they did in F-1 years ago is irrelevant the the discussion.

We are talking about the IRL.

Today Simona sat in a heavily damaged car for almost a minute and a half before the safety crew pulled up.
That is unacceptable for even a SCCA club race let alone what is suppose the premier series in North America.
Last year, when Massa crashed, there was a repetition of the same response, as repeated per this year's Waktins Glen....

different organizations for sure, but all due to the ones in charge, having their little rules in place, and having failed to learn the lessons of history....or common sense

Guess we all were spoiled by the CC safety crews....

[markabilly]

They do have two. On road courses especially long ones more are needed. Many local/track teams are quite good.
I commented quite a bit in one of my regular columns in the Garage Blog on safety issues and not just on IC.
F1, NASCAR, ALMS, IC and Grand Am plus others had better take a good look at their procedures.
For some reason fires seem to be occurring more frequently and if anything magnesium gets going it is extremely difficult to extinguish.


That was my point above



Fire is fire. It is the thing most drivers fear the most. I know I did.
Today I would never drive with the lack of protection I and everyone else did in the dark ages.
When I started I drove in a Tee shirt and jeans!
In my last car my right knee rested against one of my aluminum fuel tanks slung outside the tube frame protected by the thin fibregass body. No bladder or foam.
One layer nomex suit and underwear. Nomex bandana and open face helmet. String back gloves and boxing boots. No full face helmets or multi layer suits then. No nomex gloves, balaclavas, socks or boots. The first year I wore nomex it was one of 26 suits in Canada!
Yes we were nuts but that was all there was.

I think the current suits provide a false sense of safety, and one reason for the slow and inadequate responses.....and heat transfer can quickly cause serious burns...

[downtowndeco]

Some of you guys are ridiculous. You want the impossible. A first class traveling safety team on every corner so that the response time is less than 15 seconds in every situation. And if there is a fire less than 10 seconds.

Perhaps each car should pull a "Safety Trailer", complete with a two man fire crew. That might not be good enough either, if it's a serious crash, so perhaps a certified Dr. should be assigned to follow each car on the track in a special "Race Ambulance". One car, one ambulance. Sure it would increase the traffic on track but think of how short the response time would be!!

Look, if the IRL sends an ambulance out onto the track before the entire field is under control we could have a far more serious situation other than a car sitting alongside a barrier. A safety truck with it's crew sitting in the back could get rear ended at 175 mph by one of the race cars.

Complain complain complain. I swear to god I don't know what would bring some of you joy in life if you didn't have the IRL to kick around. : )

[garyshell]

Some of you guys are ridiculous. You want the impossible. A first class traveling safety team on every corner so that the response time is less than 15 seconds in every situation. And if there is a fire less than 10 seconds.

Perhaps each car should pull a "Safety Trailer", complete with a two man fire crew. That might not be good enough either, if it's a serious crash, so perhaps a certified Dr. should be assigned to follow each car on the track in a special "Race Ambulance". One car, one ambulance. Sure it would increase the traffic on track but think of how short the response time would be!!

Look, if the IRL sends an ambulance out onto the track before the entire field is under control we could have a far more serious situation other than a car sitting alongside a barrier. A safety truck with it's crew sitting in the back could get rear ended at 175 mph by one of the race cars.

Complain complain complain. I swear to god I don't know what would bring some of you joy in life if you didn't have the IRL to kick around. : )

Mr. Hyperbole is back.. no one is calling for that ridiculous scenario you paint. But what we ARE calling for is better response time.

As for having the field under control, that control does NOT have to require a safety/pace car. It is just idiotic to have to wait for the car to be dispatched and get the field behind it in an emergency when we have (or should have) all these corner works with this in their hands:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/Auto_Racing_Red_Cross.svg/200px-Auto_Racing_Red_Cross.svg.png

The extra minute(s) required for the safety car is/are RIDICULOUS.

Gary

[DBell]

Some of you guys are ridiculous. You want the impossible. A first class traveling safety team on every corner so that the response time is less than 15 seconds in every situation. And if there is a fire less than 10 seconds.

Perhaps each car should pull a "Safety Trailer", complete with a two man fire crew. That might not be good enough either, if it's a serious crash, so perhaps a certified Dr. should be assigned to follow each car on the track in a special "Race Ambulance". One car, one ambulance. Sure it would increase the traffic on track but think of how short the response time would be!!

Look, if the IRL sends an ambulance out onto the track before the entire field is under control we could have a far more serious situation other than a car sitting alongside a barrier. A safety truck with it's crew sitting in the back could get rear ended at 175 mph by one of the race cars.

Complain complain complain. I swear to god I don't know what would bring some of you joy in life if you didn't have the IRL to kick around. : )


Why is it everytime you post I'm reminded of Kevin Bacon in Animal House?

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/283164/remain_calm_medium.jpg

[Easy Drifter]

All F1 cars have warning lights that go on when the safety car is deployed. The drivers know instantly and cannot pass. It wouldn't take much with today's technolgy to then limit the revs they can use. There would need to be a few seconds delay on that to let any driver in mid corner get onto a straight.
There is no reason IC and other forms of racing could not use the same method.
I do not know why IC will not utilize local safety teams. All major permanent tracks have them.
They remind me of the old hidebound USAC. We did it this way in 1930 so it is good enough. Basically that was Frankie Del Roy USAC's chief tech man, one of those killed in the plane crash. Frankie had been a riding mechanic! Yes I did know him.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Some of you guys are ridiculous. You want the impossible. A first class traveling safety team on every corner so that the response time is less than 15 seconds in every situation. And if there is a fire less than 10 seconds.

Perhaps each car should pull a "Safety Trailer", complete with a two man fire crew. That might not be good enough either, if it's a serious crash, so perhaps a certified Dr. should be assigned to follow each car on the track in a special "Race Ambulance". One car, one ambulance. Sure it would increase the traffic on track but think of how short the response time would be!!

Look, if the IRL sends an ambulance out onto the track before the entire field is under control we could have a far more serious situation other than a car sitting alongside a barrier. A safety truck with it's crew sitting in the back could get rear ended at 175 mph by one of the race cars.

Complain complain complain. I swear to god I don't know what would bring some of you joy in life if you didn't have the IRL to kick around. : )

Deco, have you been around race tracks as something other than a spectator? Drifter and I have, as has Starter and a few others. WE know how local racing organizations (the ones The IRL is now spurning the help of) handle club racing and the like. Mosport, a 2.459 road course has 2 safety teams, one situated at the bottom of the track at Moss Corner and the other at S/F. I guarntee you that they would get to a burning car FASTER than the IRL guys seem to at places like the Glen, or god forbid, if they run at Road America. The way the IRL does it now, a car burning at Canada Corner of Road America would be ashes before they got their guys there.

The criticism's we have of the IRL are not only legitimate, but you can bet there are people in the paddock who are making similar ones.

The CART/CCWS safety teams set a standard and they were an expensive operation but they WORKED. Designed to hit the track from 2 to 3 locations, they arrived with the same guys week after week. All were firemen and/or paramedics and a doctor was with every truck. All the trucks were designed to bring everything required for every situation, and the crews trained. The fact is they were on the race track seconds after the Yellow flew. The drivers knew when the Yellow came out that the trucks would be rolling and watched what they were doing. It isn't rocket science. IF the DRIVERS know when the Yellow flies the safety trucks will also be going from a few locations, they will know to watch for them. Furthermore, CART used to radio to the crews where the incident was and where the truck was scrambled from. The drivers had ZERO reason to be surprised by the presence of a box on wheels with strobes all over it.

The fact is Deco, 15 seconds wouldn't be good enough if I was the guy in the car on fire and I was trapped.

No team can meet EVERY single situation perfectly. That said, the current IRL habit of getting the field under the pace car before scrambling crews is madness, and in the case of the burning car at Texas with young Simona in there, even when they got there they were clueless.

Deco, as usual, you see this as IRL bashing. It isn't....it is a kick right in their goolies because this is safety, and they are idiots if they cannot see the standard that was set years ago. The fact is, this is all about cost, and now saving face and making excuses, and it shouldn't be tolerated.

[downtowndeco]

I'm laughing when I read some of these posts, not stressed. Everyone of these keyboard jockey part time volunteer course workers have all of the answers but have none of the actual responsibilty if something where to go wrong. It's so easy to sit at home and nit pick and second guess every decision made. It's not so easy to step up to the plate and accept full responsibility for everything that goes down at the race track.

Let me ask you. What has been the IRL's record as far as responses to crashes on the track over the last 14+ years? How many drivers have been killed or seriously injured because the safety crew got there in 58 seconds vs 13 seconds (or whatever)? Other than the recent incident w/Simone where the driver got some minor burns I can't think of any. And that incident has been addressed and shoul not happen again.

My point is it's easy to sit at home and complain. It's a whole different ball game when you have to actually do something and then personally take reponsibilty for what happens because of it.


Why is it everytime you post I'm reminded of Kevin Bacon in Animal House?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm laughing when I read some of these posts, not stressed. Everyone of these keyboard jockey part time volunteer course workers have all of the answers but have none of the actual responsibilty if something where to go wrong. It's so easy to sit at home and nit pick and second guess every decision made. It's not so easy to step up to the plate and accept full responsibility for everything that goes down at the race track.

Let me ask you. What has been the IRL's record as far as responses to crashes on the track over the last 14+ years? How many drivers have been killed or seriously injured because the safety crew got there in 58 seconds vs 13 seconds (or whatever)? Other than the recent incident w/Simone where the driver got some minor burns I can't think of any. And that incident has been addressed and shoul not happen again.

My point is it's easy to sit at home and complain. It's a whole different ball game when you have to actually do something and then personally take reponsibilty for what happens because of it.

I guess someone like Drifter who actually has done marshalling and race rescue then has no idea? C'mon, you really are dense.

You don't get it do you? IT doesn't matter that no one has died. Hell, up to this spring, BP never had an oil well leak in the Gulf of Mexico either but we see the mess they have now. Never say never in safety, and your statement is epic proof to your naivety.

The day the IRL fails to have their safety guys on scene in time to make a difference will be the end of the IRL. You are obviously happy with the Keystone Cops approach to race safety....

[DBell]

Let me ask you. What has been the IRL's record as far as responses to crashes on the track over the last 14+ years? How many drivers have been killed or seriously injured because the safety crew got there in 58 seconds vs 13 seconds (or whatever)? Other than the recent incident w/Simone where the driver got some minor burns I can't think of any. And that incident has been addressed and shoul not happen again.


In many situations, a few seconds isn't a big deal because of the safety level of modern racing. But there will always be some where reaction time is critical. How many seconds were we from having Simone in a hospital undergoing skin grafts? A few seconds was the difference between Zanardi living and dying. To me, that was the gold standard of safety team work on any level of motor sports. From what I've seen this year, Zanardi would've been a goner if his crash happened this year.

[downtowndeco]

Marshalling and having to write the check and take full reponsibility if something goes wrong is an entirely different matter.

You want to talk about what would put an end to a series? How about having an Indycar rear end a safety truck full of rescuers at 175 mph because they just couldn't wait an extra 30 seconds to get to a crash scene?



I guess someone like Drifter who actually has done marshalling and race rescue then has no idea? C'mon, you really are dense.

You don't get it do you? IT doesn't matter that no one has died. Hell, up to this spring, BP never had an oil well leak in the Gulf of Mexico either but we see the mess they have now. Never say never in safety, and your statement is epic proof to your naivety.

The day the IRL fails to have their safety guys on scene in time to make a difference will be the end of the IRL. You are obviously happy with the Keystone Cops approach to race safety....

[downtowndeco]

So your solution is to fling a rescue truck out onto the track immediately, regardless of whether race traffic is under control or not? THAT is a huge incident just waiting to happen.

It's an imperfect world. Racing is dangerous. While things can always be improved (safer barrier, pit lane speed limits etc) other things are more more complicated and problematic in a real world situation. IMO this is one of them.


In many situations, a few seconds isn't a big deal because of the safety level of modern racing. But there will always be some where reaction time is critical. How many seconds were we from having Simone in a hospital undergoing skin grafts? A few seconds was the difference between Zanardi living and dying. To me, that was the gold standard of safety team work on any level of motor sports. From what I've seen this year, Zanardi would've been a goner if his crash happened this year.

[downtowndeco]

And yes, the CART safety team did a great job, no doubt. But take that exact same incident in F1, NASCAR, NHRA, any of the stick and ball sports and 9 times out of 10 you would probably have a fatality. While the CART team did a tremendous job and should be praised I bet they would be the first to admit they were damn lucky to have it turn out as well as it did.


In many situations, a few seconds isn't a big deal because of the safety level of modern racing. But there will always be some where reaction time is critical. How many seconds were we from having Simone in a hospital undergoing skin grafts? A few seconds was the difference between Zanardi living and dying. To me, that was the gold standard of safety team work on any level of motor sports. From what I've seen this year, Zanardi would've been a goner if his crash happened this year.

[Easy Drifter]

I have been to approximately 70 tracks world wide. I have seen safety crews from excellent to basically clueless. I have marshaled, raced, wrenched, worked race control, been a steward, spectator, tech inspector and had training on fire fighting from Cdn Air Force. I am now in the media.
As I pointed out there is currently the technology to advise the drivers instantly. F1 uses it. There is also the technology for race control to limit the speed of the cars. No one uses it yet. I can see it coming in F1 very shortly.
At Valencia 9, yes 9, drivers received penalties because they did not slow sufficiently or quickly enough under the Safety car.
Just because it has not happened does not mean it won't. Not every circumstance can be controlled but IC, and some other sanctioning groups had better seriously review their procedures.
Because of the basic track design ovals are far easier for safety equipment to get to an incident. Mostly they are also shorter. The Glen is 3.4 miles.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Marshalling and having to write the check and take full reponsibility if something goes wrong is an entirely different matter.

You want to talk about what would put an end to a series? How about having an Indycar rear end a safety truck full of rescuers at 175 mph because they just couldn't wait an extra 30 seconds to get to a crash scene?

I don't have to write the check. CART did, even when they were broke. They never cut back on safety. NEVER. What the IRL is doing is just silly when they bought up the assets of the CCWS/CART mess and the only thing they really didn't keep WAS the safety teams.

The difference in costs between what they were in CART/CCWS and what is happening now likely isn't that great.

AS for the assertion of drivers hitting the safety vehicles, puleeze. That chesnut is a joke. The reality is, safety trucks with full strobes would be scrambled the second the field had stopped racing, and that is maybe 10 seconds after the yellow lights/flags come out. Once the track is yellow, any driver hitting a safety vehicle is too dumb to race IMO.

The Zanardi incident was a perfect example of where the CART teams proved their worth. The would scramble before the pace car even picked up the leader...and the ONLY time a racer hit one of them was in Detroit by Mike Andretti and that was on the THIRD lap the truck was out there.... proving that race drivers can be brain dead 2 or 3 laps into a yellow...

[Mark in Oshawa]

And yes, the CART safety team did a great job, no doubt. But take that exact same incident in F1, NASCAR, NHRA, any of the stick and ball sports and 9 times out of 10 you would probably have a fatality. While the CART team did a tremendous job and should be praised I bet they would be the first to admit they were damn lucky to have it turn out as well as it did.

Luck? Maybe....but the NHRA and CART teams were the top of the heap. The IRL is using ideas that don't work as well. ONE safety vehicle works on a short oval, but on a longer track? No. Not scrambling them faster? No.....

There is an institutional mindset with the IRL I think that has caused them to just block out the reality that it was done better 15 years ago because THEY Didn't invent it. It was a CART thing..and god knows we don't like what they were about do we?

[DBell]

The Zanardi incident was a perfect example of where the CART teams proved their worth. The would scramble before the pace car even picked up the leader...and the ONLY time a racer hit one of them was in Detroit by Mike Andretti and that was on the THIRD lap the truck was out there.... proving that race drivers can be brain dead 2 or 3 laps into a yellow...

Acually, it was Mario first, then Michael.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwEqjuvAZzE&feature=PlayList&p=9D967A36626AF41D&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=10

Even one of the all time great's can have a serious brain cramp.

[downtowndeco]

Here's another mindset I see here often. "IRL bad. CART good". It's usually the same 3 or 4 guys too.




There is an institutional mindset with the IRL I think that has caused them to just block out the reality that it was done better 15 years ago because THEY Didn't invent it. It was a CART thing..and god knows we don't like what they were about do we?

[Chris R]

Here's another mindset I see here often. "IRL bad. CART good". It's usually the same 3 or 4 guys too.

Those who live in glass houses....

seriously, like horsepower, this all gets down to cubic dollars - back in the day CART had it to spend... today the IRL does not....

The important thing is to do the best with what they have... it might not always measure up to some ideal- but they should do the best they can (I am not convinced that is what is happening right now - but I am in no position to judge....)

[downtowndeco]

By "writing the check" I meant in human costs, not dollars. Sorry, I should have been clearer. Didn't CART lose a couple of marshalls over the years? All I'm saying is there is a reason why the safety crew waits before entering the track.

Again, the cost in human lives is something you can't put a price on. Ripping a truck full of guys onto a hot track has disaster written all over it.


I don't have to write the check.

[garyshell]

You want to talk about what would put an end to a series? How about having an Indycar rear end a safety truck full of rescuers at 175 mph because they just couldn't wait an extra 30 seconds to get to a crash scene?

I am sorry, boot me from the forum if you want Starter, but this has to be the STUPIDEST statement I have ever seen on these forums. Do you really think the ONLY alternative is to allow this idiotic delay while the pace car picks up the field? On board yellow flashing lights or radio to the teams combined with a waving "emergency vehicle on course" flag can put the field under control a hell of a lot faster than a damn pace car.

You are pretty callous saying 30 seconds is acceptable. But the reality is if we have to wait for a pace car, it will be longer than 30 seconds at some tracks.

Gary

:eek:

[garyshell]

Here's another mindset I see here often. "IRL bad. CART good". It's usually the same 3 or 4 guys too.


And there is the problem. You see any comparison like that and the "red mist" sets in. You think any mention of the IRL and CART in the same sentence is a drumming up of the old war. Guess what bud, it isn't. It is a comparison, nothing more, nothing less.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Look who started the thread. Is he a fan of the IRL in any way, shape or form? Does he currently post on the hate site? Answer honestly.


And there is the problem. You see any comparison like that and the "red mist" sets in. You think any mention of the IRL and CART in the same sentence is a drumming up of the old war. Guess what bud, it isn't. It is a comparison, nothing more, nothing less.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Stupid in your opinion. It's easy for you to sit at home and take pot shots at safety procedures. It's a whole different matter when you actually have to take responsibility for what happens on the track to the drivers and the course workers, both legally and morally.

Again, how many IRL drivers have been killed or seriously injured because of slow (in your opinion) safety team procedures? And how many marshals or members of the safety crew have been injured or killed in that same time?

I know of at least two incidents where course workers were killed at CART events. And what, three or four drivers? I'm just saying if you take a deep breath, remove personal agendas and bias out of the agenda and only look at the facts the IRL's safety crew and safety procedurees have on whole done at least as good of a job as CART in helping the drivers while at the same time keeping the course workers safe.

It's not an easy job. It's an imperfect situation. Changes are made when it becomes appartent that there is a better way to do things. But series officials have to be careful to create an even more dangerous situation when making safety procedure changes.


I am sorry, boot me from the forum if you want Starter, but this has to be the STUPIDEST statement I have ever seen on these forums. Do you really think the ONLY alternative is to allow this idiotic delay while the pace car picks up the field? On board yellow flashing lights or radio to the teams combined with a waving "emergency vehicle on course" flag can put the field under control a hell of a lot faster than a damn pace car.

You are pretty callous saying 30 seconds is acceptable. But the reality is if we have to wait for a pace car, it will be longer than 30 seconds at some tracks.

Gary

:eek:

[garyshell]

Look who started the thread. Is he a fan of the IRL in any way, shape or form? Does he currently post on the hate site? Answer honestly.

Who gives a rat's @$$ who STARTED the thread. You sound like a 5 year old. "Mommy, Mommy he hit me first." Pathetic.

You didn't say anything in your message (quoted below) about directing your response at one person and several folks here mentioned the IRL and CART.


Here's another mindset I see here often. "IRL bad. CART good". It's usually the same 3 or 4 guys too.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

You like calling names, don't you? How about just addressing the actual facts of the situatuion?


Who gives a rat's @$$ who STARTED the thread. You sound like a 5 year old. "Mommy, Mommy he hit me first." Pathetic.

You didn't say anything in your message (quoted below) about directing your response at one person and several folks here mentioned the IRL and CART.



Gary

[garyshell]

Changes are made when it becomes appartent that there is a better way to do things.

Again it doesn't matter how many were or were not killed. Here is a chance to make a change because there is an OBVIOUSLY better way to do it. Wave an "emergency vehicle on track" flag at all stations.

I don't have to remove all "agenda and bias", there never was one in my thinking that the response time to the last two incidents was unacceptable when there is clearly a better way.

You may think you are the only one without bias here. Some of us know better.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

OK. That's one way of looking at it. I have a different opinion.


Again it doesn't matter how many were or were not killed.

[garyshell]

There is an institutional mindset with the IRL I think that has caused them to just block out the reality that it was done better 15 years ago because THEY Didn't invent it. It was a CART thing..and god knows we don't like what they were about do we?


Here's another mindset I see here often. "IRL bad. CART good". It's usually the same 3 or 4 guys too.


And there is the problem. You see any comparison like that and the "red mist" sets in. You think any mention of the IRL and CART in the same sentence is a drumming up of the old war. Guess what bud, it isn't. It is a comparison, nothing more, nothing less.


Look who started the thread. Is he a fan of the IRL in any way, shape or form? Does he currently post on the hate site? Answer honestly.


Who gives a rat's @$$ who STARTED the thread. You sound like a 5 year old. "Mommy, Mommy he hit me first." Pathetic.

You didn't say anything in your message (quoted below) about directing your response at one person and several folks here mentioned the IRL and CART.



You like calling names, don't you? How about just addressing the actual facts of the situatuion?

Which facts are we talking about? The above quotes are the EXACT sequence of events leading us to here. You quoted Mark and then went on your usual "us versus them" tirade. Then when called out on that, you attempt to divert your remarks to the original poster. Facts? Again what "facts" might that be?

We're done, I am not wasting another keystroke on this garbage. If you can't stand folks actually trying to compare and critique how things were done and are done now without turning it into some CART vs. IRL battle, then just skip any post where you see the four letter CART.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

The "facts" are that the IRL safety crew and procedures have AT LEAST as good of a track record as CART had. The IRL has had no driver injuries due to slow response (other than recent fire incident and quite frankly they got there quick they just dropped the ball) and no marshall/safety crew deaths, something that cannot be said about CART.

I think some like to look back with rose colored glasses....

And with that, I'll let it go. Cheers.




Which facts are we talking about? The above quotes are the EXACT sequence of events leading us to here. You quoted Mark and then went on your usual "us versus them" tirade. Then when called out on that, you attempt to divert your remarks to the original poster. Facts? Again what "facts" might that be?

We're done, I am not wasting another keystroke on this garbage. If you can't stand folks actually trying to compare and critique how things were done and are done now without turning it into some CART vs. IRL battle, then just skip any post where you see the four letter CART.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

The "facts" are that the IRL safety crew and procedures have AT LEAST as good of a track record as CART had. The IRL has had no driver injuries due to slow response (other than recent fire incident and quite frankly they got there quick they just dropped the ball) and no marshall/safety crew deaths, something that cannot be said about CART.

I think some like to look back with rose colored glasses....

And with that, I'll let it go. Cheers.

STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT!
Stop using other series as an excuse. You are like a 3rd grader who got caught passing notes in class and saying that another passes more.

I don't care what CART did. I don't care what F-1 did.


I care about at least One Minute and Twenty Three Seconds passing before a rescue crew arriving at the site of an accident.

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!

[downtowndeco]

Yes yes we get it. You're a "concerned" fan.


STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT!
Stop using other series as an excuse. You are like a 3rd grader who got caught passing notes in class and saying that another passes more.

I don't care what CART did. I don't care what F-1 did.


I care about at least One Minute and Twenty Three Seconds passing before a rescue crew arriving at the site of an accident.

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Here's another mindset I see here often. "IRL bad. CART good". It's usually the same 3 or 4 guys too.

With you it is the other way around. And you are also dead wrong. Your idea that things are fine is not backed up by any argument other than no one died. Sounds like NASCAR when Adam Petty died....."well this is a unique accident". Then Kenny Irwin and then Dale Earnhardt. It is besides the point.

You think it is acceptable for a driver in a burning car to wait a minute and a half almost and when the stupid safety guy gets there, he cannot even figure out how to tackle the blaze and get her out. IF that is what you call acceptable, There is no point in having the conversation.

This isn't about CART good IRL bad by itself, but it is clear to me that was Tony George's reasoning for dumping the only thing that worked about CART/CCWS the way it was designed.

This is typical of you Deco, accuse others of what you are actually doing, and yet not see it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Stupid in your opinion. It's easy for you to sit at home and take pot shots at safety procedures. It's a whole different matter when you actually have to take responsibility for what happens on the track to the drivers and the course workers, both legally and morally.

Again, how many IRL drivers have been killed or seriously injured because of slow (in your opinion) safety team procedures? And how many marshals or members of the safety crew have been injured or killed in that same time?

I know of at least two incidents where course workers were killed at CART events. And what, three or four drivers? I'm just saying if you take a deep breath, remove personal agendas and bias out of the agenda and only look at the facts the IRL's safety crew and safety procedurees have on whole done at least as good of a job as CART in helping the drivers while at the same time keeping the course workers safe.

It's not an easy job. It's an imperfect situation. Changes are made when it becomes appartent that there is a better way to do things. But series officials have to be careful to create an even more dangerous situation when making safety procedure changes.

The two course workers died not 300 yards from me in Toronto. They were placed there by a guy who obviously was clueless. Changes were made. Unlike the IRL mindset, where people are so brilliant they don't need to learn anything more, CART learned a lot from their mistakes. This isn't about course marshals though Deco. Your argument is full of holes because you are still on this CART/IRL warfare mindset, which makes arguing anything with you both easy and frustrating. Easy, because it is so obvious, and frustrating because you continually ignore facts.

The safety system that CART used right to the end was more efficient and did demonstrate that on god knows how many occasions. This isn't about the course marshals, who are often placed by officials not connected with the governing body. This is about the concept of the rolling safety truck. An idea pioneered ironically by the NHRA, who were the first ones to have a full time safety team to rip down the strip and save a driver's life if necessary. CART picked up the concept, adapted it to road racing and ovals alike, and unlike the IRL, constantly upgraded it and improved it at great expense. It was the ONLY thing they did better constantly at all times better than almost any other organization.

Yet people like you Deco poo poo it...consider it unnecessary and dangerous. The concept isn't a theory, it WORKED for 2 decades plus. Alex Zanardi is arguably alive today because of it. So for you to dump on it is out of ignorance, and just being contrarian. That's fine, you can do that....but you notice of course no one is really backing your argument.

IN short, you would be wise to realize you are wrong.....

[Easy Drifter]

I did not mention CART/CC in my comments. I said how to get rescue trucks rolling SAFELY before the field is under control of the Pace car. This technology is fairly new.
IC's methods are probably ok on most if not all ovals. But they need to adapt on road/street courses.
I also cannot comprehend why they will not use track safety people and equipment.
Two trucks are not enough on road/street courses even if they can roll almost immediately. Whereas on an oval they can run flat out they sure cannot on a road course with often slow corners.
IC and Deco seem to have the closed mindset that was typical of USAC. It is the 21st Century so embrace new technology and quit thinking and acting the same way it was 10 or so years ago.
There is always room for improvement.

[00steven]

My God enough already, downtowndeco! I think we can all agree that safety is most important. We have seen far to many lose thier lives in accidents and a minute and a half is just too slow.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I have to stand corrected. A little bird reminded me there was ONE marshal killed in Toronto, Gary Avrin, and Krosnoff was the other fatality in the car. The other marshal was killed in Vancouver in their first race, and it was a QRFA marshal who took it into his own head to venture onto a race track not under control to push a car....

AS for Deco, he just thinks ok is ok....and on safety, in a top flight series, ok is not enough...especially when you consider people like Deco figure 2 minutes is ok when SCCA regions and CASC here in Ontario often can do better than that with half the resources and VOLUNTEERS!

[markabilly]

I have to stand corrected. A little bird reminded me there was ONE marshal killed in Toronto, Gary Avrin, and Krosnoff was the other fatality in the car. The other marshal was killed in Vancouver in their first race, and it was a QRFA marshal who took it into his own head to venture onto a race track not under control to push a car....

AS for Deco, he just thinks ok is ok....and on safety, in a top flight series, ok is not enough...especially when you consider people like Deco figure 2 minutes is ok when SCCA regions and CASC here in Ontario often can do better than that with half the resources and VOLUNTEERS!


Even 60 seconds can be too long in a fire given this......


she was lucky to have not been hurt worse.
from the time the first respneder had his foot on the pavement until she was out of the car was about 40 seconds....but she had already been in a car on fire for about another 25 seconds with the fire coming up into her face and on one side.
time to second degree burn in a top rated suit under the SFI 3.2A/20, is 40 seconds
but a heavy and hot suit.

http://www.profoxracing.com/sfi.html

http://www.circletrack.com/featuredvehicles/ctrp_0702_racing_firesuits/tips_advice.html





I do not beleive most drivers wear anything more than a SFI 3.2A/5....which is good for about a whole 9 seconds before 2nd degree burns set in......

she was lucky the fire had not gotten down inside the leg and/or body area inside the cockpit, or she would be in serious or critical condtion in a burn unit without question

[Easy Drifter]

IC had a serious issue with Simona's fire and offered nothing but propoganda and a feel good statement. Then at the Glen they had another serious failure which they have not even acknowledged with the unacceptable response time to Simona's crash. Luckily she was unhurt.
Meanwhile F1 has a minor foul up with the deployment of the Safety Car and resulting penalties. One race later and changes have been made!
Not to say F1 is perfect. Far from it but at least they do something and quickly.
F1 also have corner workers who can and do respond to an incident, usually very quickly. The Monaco workers are super efficient.
As far as I know neither of Ontario's well trained marshal groups has been contacted to work the Honda Indy in Toronto.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I just checked both the MMS and CRCA websites and neither is supporting the Toronto race. That means that there will be few, if any, experienced corner workers at the race.
I suspect Finger Lakes Lakes SCCA and those down into Ohio will be supporting a bunch, and I also bet a few MMS and CRCA folks will be moonlighting.

I wouldn't say this is the ideal, but this is just more proof of the Andretti organization kicking the locals in the teeth. The organization of marshals and volunteers that my friend Mr. Ellsworth was in charge of for years was second to none. CART used to just show up and turn the key.....

ON the safety trucks and their capablilities, I do wish The IRL would get their head out of the sand. At Toronto, There is no reason a prepositioned team couldn't be sitting on the back stretch to get to 3 within 30 seconds of dispatch, and another team could be sitting up at the top end by the Gardiner or over by the GO train entrance in the runoff of turn 11.

The cost of having a second and maybe 3 dispatch trucks is a lot, but as events this year have proven, they are getting by on luck right now...

[Easy Drifter]

With the size of the field you can be almost positive there will be at least one collision at 3. Hopefully not until they have got slowed down and not on the approach at close to 200.