British Grand Prix

[Saint Devote]

Next Sunday is THE home grand prix for all the British domiciled teams including Williams - the ENGLISH team, Mclaren, Red Bull and Brawn-Illmor - aka: Mercedes.

It will follow on from the world cup final - hopefully won by the Netherlands.

I think that Vettel has recovered well and will once again win - he KNOWS he can do it after his exquisite domination drive in 2009.

Mclaren is due to have its new kit on the cars and both Jense and Lewis will be fired up. CAN Jenson outqualify Lewis at this race - I think Hamilton has the "one tenth" advantage here but if teh car feels completely right to Jense, he will be able to do it.

Exciting that the new Arena section will be used and this could make it the fastest lap in f1.

The Ferraris were caught out at Valencia and have to be right up there - although historically British GP officialdom and Ferrari have not exactly seen eye to eye.

The British GP is like Monaco inthat everyone wants to have a win there on his resume.

I do not expect the Nigel Mansell thrill that will in my view never be beaten - Nigel was just special and none of the British drivers have that nowadays - "I was prepared to die in order to win"!

Nigel loved the fans, meant what he said and the fans loved him back :D

But the British Grand Prix is always a thrill and I am sure all veteran fans - have a special place for it in their souls.

[Rusty Spanner]

Definitely looking forward to seeing what the changes to the layout with the new Areana section have to offer. Hopefully the addition of the big stops into Village and the revised Brooklands corner will help make the track more racey. I've always like the track because it was one of the few true high speed circuits on the calendar but those sustained high speeds sometimes conspire to make passing very difficult.

Arguably Silverstone and the British Grand Prix is the oldest World Championship event on the calendar seeing as it was the location of the first. I am however a little disappointed that more doesn't seem to be being made of this what with it being the 60th anniversary of the founding of the World Championship. Still its going to be a stonking event. The sun is going to shine and we get to see F1 cars really stretching their legs through some of the best corners on the calendar.

[ShiftingGears]

Webber getting Vettel's damaged chassis. That will do him no favours.

[Daniel]

Well crashing into the back of Kovalainen did him no favours either...

[ShiftingGears]

Well crashing into the back of Kovalainen did him no favours either...

Obviously..

[Dave B]

Red Bull are certain that the problems with the rejected chassis were down to damage and are now fixed. Still, nice for Mark to know that he'll be driving Seb's hand-me-downs!

[Tazio]

Jeeezusss,
Is this a situation where they simply do not have another available (which I find highly unlikely), and not the time to fully construct another. Or has Dietrich Mateschitz suddenly become frugal? :confused:

[AndyL]

Webber getting Vettel's damaged chassis. That will do him no favours.

Unless he beats Vettel in it, in which case it will do Vettel no favours!

[Bagwan]

What's her name ?

[SGWilko]

What's her name ?

From now?

Sheila?

[SGWilko]

Red Bull are certain that the problems with the rejected chassis were down to damage and are now fixed. Still, nice for Mark to know that he'll be driving Seb's hand-me-downs!

A couple of years and he will grow into it.......

[ShiftingGears]

From now?

Sheila?

:laugh: :laugh:

[jens]

Silverstone should at least in theory be one of the strongest circuits for RBR, so they need a 1-2 to avoid McLaren securing a comfortable position in the battle for WCC. The British GP will also be quite a defining weekend for Ferrari - how much have they managed to solve their aero-problems? And of course - Lotus. Their last huge upgrade of the season. Can they beat a car from an established team on merit? :D I'm also looking forward to see Kobayashi getting into Q3 considering, which circuits seem to suit this year's Sauber based on car characteristics.

[Dave B]

A couple of years and he will grow into it.......
Shrink into it, surely? :p

[Saint Devote]

There is no point in RBR undermining Webber. He is already signed for another season and could be a deciding factor in the championship so upsetting him is not in anyone's interests unless you are Mclaren or Ferrari.

So the chassis is in good nick and returning to the track to ensure Mateschitz's main goal of the Constructors championship is achieved.

[Mia 01]

1 Felipe
2 Seb
3 Robert

A result I would like. Massa needs on up on Alonso now.

Robert is scoring all of Renualts points, I would like if they finish above Mercedes in the WCC.

[DazzlaF1]

If there's one thing we'll miss, it'll be Bernie looking for excuses to threaten to pull Silverstone off the calendar cos this time next year when all the shiny new facilities are completed, he will have no excuses :D

Aside from that though, it should be a cracking weekend's racing hopefully ending with a British winner.

[AndyL]

Aside from that though, it should be a cracking weekend's racing hopefully ending with a British winner.

I think that's pretty likely, whether it's Hamilton, Button, Horner/Newey, Ross Brawn, Frank Williams, Rob Smedley or Bob Bell & Alan Permane :D Just need to find someone in Fernando's camp to wave the flag for and we'll have all the bases covered :)

[MrJan]

Well crashing into the back of Kovalainen did him no favours either...

I'll think that you'll find that it was actually Heikki stupidly braking so that he could get round a corner that caused that accident. If only he'd had the sense to plough straight on into a wall then Webber would have got through cleanly.

[Tazio]

1 Felipe
2 Seb
3 Robert

A result I would like. Massa needs on up on Alonso now.

Robert is scoring all of Renualts points, I would like if they finish above Mercedes in the WCC.Mia have you been reading my mind? I have had a premonition that Massa would win this race. But as a, general rule I don't follow my premonitions any more. I lost too much money in Vegas following them. Realistically I think the podium will be Seb-Boss-Fred!
And now that I jinxed that outcome all bets are off! :roll: :s mokin:

[Tazio]

"It is a crucial moment in the season, with three races coming up in the space of four weeks," said Alonso.


"We are ready, both on the technical front and physically.


"In Valencia, we introduced significant updates on the F10 and there will be more in Silverstone and the races after that.


"The development programme is intensive and I think we will see it produce results."

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48767&PO=48767

This guy Fred is just blowing smoke! No one should take him, and his team of mental midgets seriously! :rolleyes: :s mokin:

[Retro Formula 1]

Well, at the moment the weather is for a dry race although there is a wet, stormy front moving in for Monday morning. Who knows, perhaps it might be early.

[Saint Devote]

Why do drivers have this dratted desire to change their helmet designs at a whim?

This weekend, Hamilton is going to have a different design - Jenson also did that in 2009.

Instead of Lewis' usual helmet design featuring the national colors of Granada, he will now have the helmet showing a Union Jack with the Grenada flag in addition to the usual colors on top of the UJ.

And split evenly on top.

At Valencia Barrichello changed the helmet.

Its bad enough that too many drivers have such awful busy "designs" that recognizing the helmet in detail is impossible - but they change them too.

At least Hamilton's Granada coloured usual helmet is straightforward compared to the ugliness of Kovaleinen's or the confusion of Vettel's.

I hope Jenson sticks with his usual lid sporting the UJ. Period!

[Tazio]

Why do drivers have this dratted desire to change their helmet designs at a whim?

This weekend, Hamilton is going to have a different design - Jenson also did that in 2009.

Instead of Lewis' usual helmet design featuring the national colors of Granada, he will now have the helmet showing a Union Jack with the Grenada flag in addition to the usual colors on top of the UJ.

And split evenly on top.

At Valencia Barrichello changed the helmet.

Its bad enough that too many drivers have such awful busy "designs" that recognizing the helmet in detail is impossible - but they change them too.

At least Hamilton's Granada coloured usual helmet is straightforward compared to the ugliness of Kovaleinen's or the confusion of Vettel's.

I hope Jenson sticks with his usual lid sporting the UJ. Period!
A couple of years back "Jense" changed his helmet livery to " The Cross of Saint George" for Silverstone.
Quit bugging us with such petty bitching.
Oi vay....Suddenly I'm reminded of the refrain to a Jackson Browne song:

I'm not worried 'bout the ozone layer, Just let those rays come through.
When I'm outside I'll keep my clothes on.
My problem is you

And I don't worry 'bout Madonna or the next thing she might do
And I don't worry 'bout your momma
My problem is you. :monkeedan :monkee: :burn:

[F1boat]

I want to see Jenson winning his home race ahead of Alonso and Michael, but it will be likely an easy win for Red Bull and third place for Hamilton.

[Dave B]

There's a cheeky little bump in the new section which has unsettled a few cars.

I wish I'd known that when I was driving the circuit in a simulator last week - I could have had a handy excuse!

[ArrowsFA1]

Good to see so many spectators at Silverstone for the first free practice :up: Looks like there are more there than attend race days at some other events :eek:

[CaptainRaiden]

Looking at practice, comparing the onboard footage from both Vettel and Hamilton's cars, it's amazing how much more unstable and bumpy the Mclaren is compared to the Red Bull. Both Jenson and Lewis have a really hard time over bumps, all the time correcting the steering, while the way that Red Bull rides the kerbs so smooth, it's like they have cotton balls stuffed in their suspension.

[Dave B]

Why do drivers have this dratted desire to change their helmet designs at a whim?
Because they have personalities? Because they like to recognise fans and family? Maybe just because they can.

[Dave B]

Good to see so many spectators at Silverstone for the first free practice :up: Looks like there are more there than attend race days at some other events :eek:
"A few empty seats, but not many" according to the BBC commentary. :up:

[Saint Devote]

I want to see Jenson winning his home race ahead of Alonso and Michael, but it will be likely an easy win for Red Bull and third place for Hamilton.

Silverstone is a track that Vettel is mega at - if there is one thing a British Grand Prix tends to be and that is unpredictable.

Its only first practice and I think Webber will have something to say before the weekend is out!

[christophulus]

What does everyone think of the new track then? It certainly looks weird, especially around Club and along the pit straight where they've tweaked the layout and the run off areas. Overall though, pretty good.

[DazzlaF1]

One thing David Croft mentioned on the commentary during FP2

On Top Gear this sunday, Rubens Barrichello will be on taking the reasonably priced car (Suzuki Liana) for a spin.

http://www.carsuk.net/rubens-barrichello-does-top-gear/

Deffo worth watching if the World Cup Final isnt your thing. Wonder if he'll beat Hamilton & Button or even the best F1 driver so far, Mansell

[Tazio]

McLaren has abandoned its exhaust-blown diffuser for the rest of the British Grand Prix weekend, AUTOSPORT can reveal, after a difficult first day of running with the concept at Silverstone on Friday.

The Woking-based team had high hopes that the update package it brought on to the car for this weekend's race would help lift its performance to take the fight to pre-event favourites Red Bull Racing.

However, both Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button failed to get comfortable with the new handling and set-up of the revised MP4-25 at Silverstone - with Hamilton running off-track several times as he took the car to the limit.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85141

Saturday morning practice should be quite interesting as McLaren will need to come to terms with Silverstone’s new configuration post haste! :s ailor:

[Saint Devote]

Mclaren have a problem - Jense and Lewis [getting all crossed-up and off track several times during fp2] so far back during fp2 I thought they were running full tank tests. It looks unlikely that either can win this weekend.

Mark Webber with that SUPERB lap was the highlight. Also Speed had a few questions with the great Patrick from WGPE. Another highlight.

Not surprising and nice to see Scuderia Ferrari at the sharp end with Brawn-Illmor on their tails.

If Jense does not then I hope Webber wins pole.

Vettel's helmet is pretty kewl - similar to what he ran in 2009 when he won in fine style.

New circuit looks good and as usual Silverstone provides a tremendous sensation of speed as the cars power around. Great to see a track where the fans and supporters are so many.

[Saint Devote]

A couple of years back "Jense" changed his helmet livery to " The Cross of Saint George" for Silverstone.
Quit bugging us with such petty bitching.
Oi vay....Suddenly I'm reminded of the refrain to a Jackson Browne song:

I'm not worried 'bout the ozone layer, Just let those rays come through.
When I'm outside I'll keep my clothes on.
My problem is you

And I don't worry 'bout Madonna or the next thing she might do
And I don't worry 'bout your momma
My problem is you. :monkeedan :monkee: :burn:

You are another exceptionally rude individual that is I see allowed to get away with flaunting the rules here.

In future, please ignore me.

[truefan72]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85141

Saturday morning practice should be quite interesting as McLaren will need to come to terms with Silverstone’s new configuration post haste! :s ailor:

good,

I was a bit unconvinced by the performance of the update, or actually why mclaren needed it in the first place. I thought the cars were running fine before and maybe some updates in other areas (especially handling in lower speed corners) might be more important.

This just highlights the problem with no testing.
A wasted Friday, but an important lesson learned.

"if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it"

[Saint Devote]

With the Barmy Army out in full force its time for Jense to kick some butt at Silverstone :devil: :p imp: :bandit:

Pimpin' yo! PIMPIN'!!!

[Garry Walker]

With the Barmy Army out in full force its time for Jense to kick some butt at Silverstone :devil: :p imp: :bandit:

Pimpin' yo! PIMPIN'!!!

Here is a picture I found of some Barmy Army members relaxing in a pool near Silverstone, waiting for the race weekend to start.

http://callhart.com/crazy/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/poolidiots.jpg

[DazzlaF1]

Here we go, the qualifying session for arguably the most pivotal race of the season is underway

[CaptainRaiden]

With the Barmy Army out in full force its time for Jense to kick some butt at Silverstone :devil: :p imp: :bandit:

Pimpin' yo! PIMPIN'!!!

Yep, all Jenson managed was to get his own butt kicked. ;)

[wedge]

With the Barmy Army out in full force its time for Jense to kick some butt at Silverstone :devil: :p imp: :bandit:

Pimpin' yo! PIMPIN'!!!

Looks like LH did it for him, again

[jens]

Well... Especially with in-season testing ban we have often seen teams getting their upgrades wrong. The more unusual thing is that now it has been McLaren's turn to get it completely wrong, which makes the season even more unpredictable than what it has been so far. Red Bull's golden chance to capitalize on it, but can they do it? (a bit of a Legardism here :D ) McLaren, who has seemed to be capable of almost match Red Bull recently, has even dropped behind Ferrari. Astounding. Button faced his most common problem and couldn't get heat into the tyres again?

Lotus is another team, who has been taking a step backwards with their upgrade. Now they are back on the level they were in the beginning of the season and are being matched by Virgin - massively disappointing. Not to mention the huge amount of car problems in FP's. Sauber in Q3 again on this type of circuit, which could have been expected. Nice job by de la Rosa, hopefully Kobayashi will show more of his pace again in the race trim again. And besides all, Yamamoto lost to Chandhok only by 0.4 seconds, so I guess overall it shows the level of drivers at HRT.

PS. Garry Walker, great picture! :D

[wedge]

Well... Especially with in-season testing ban we have often seen teams getting their upgrades wrong. The more unusual thing is that now it has been McLaren's turn to get it completely wrong, which makes the season even more unpredictable than what it has been so far. Red Bull's golden chance to capitalize on it, but can they do it? (a bit of a Legardism here :D ) McLaren, who has seemed to be capable of almost match Red Bull recently, has even dropped behind Ferrari. Astounding. Button faced his most common problem and couldn't get heat into the tyres again?

Considering there were teams who struggled with their diffusers in Valencia I'm surprised McLaren never had a proper contingency plan. I get the impression that they thought the diffuser would work straight out the box.

[Ranger]

Considering there were teams who struggled with their diffusers in Valencia I'm surprised McLaren never had a proper contingency plan. I get the impression that they thought the diffuser would work straight out the box.

Same with most other teams and the F-duct.

With chassis homologation it is extremely hard to integrate a component which was not originally designed to be there.

[F1boat]

Awesome pace from Red Bull and impressive laps from their drivers, pity about the wings situation, but that's how the team wants it and in the end they pay the bills... Good laps from both Alonso and Hamilton and very poor showing for Jenson Button, sadly.

[truefan72]

those RBR's are bloody fast in silverstone. A good half second better than the competition. The Ferrari's have also made some majotr advancements and Alonos' 3rd place is well deserved. Hamilton, wrestling that Maclaren to 4th by sheer will and determination is something to behold./ .Meanwhile Button simply did not brign it and continues his poor qualy form. Rubens did very well as did the slightly improving Mercedes.

Well it could be a snore fest tomorrow if it were any other team than RBR 1-2 at the start. We will see if the wing holds up, if webber/vettel get into something, if the car holds up and more. Also interesting would be to see how Alonso deals with them and how aggressive he will be at the start, although I think Hamilton and Alonso will be in their own duel for 3rd spot.

[markabilly]

and MS waiting to the very end to qualify in the very back??

Only one really hot lap and then almost another??

Could not even match his Q2 time....

[Mia 01]

Williams made their EBD work, MacLaren didn´t.

[Mia 01]

the man today was Pedro de la rosa, the likes of MS and Button are behind him.

[Jag_Warrior]

the man today was Pedro de la rosa, the likes of MS and Button are behind him.

It's always amazed me that when there are rumors that a driver could be on the bubble with the team, he suddenly begins to perform.

[wedge]

Same with most other teams and the F-duct.

With chassis homologation it is extremely hard to integrate a component which was not originally designed to be there.

I meant a work programme for Friday; because of Button's moaning Paffet had to work on the simulator on Saturday morning

I may have been been a bit harsh and it may seem that they had a severely compromised day of practice and testing.

testing ban happy happy joy, joy and to think McLaren were heading the right direction Turkey onwards. Another twist in car development arms race, happy happy, joy joy!

[Saint Devote]

Jense always does his best and his supporters always stand by him.

The time difference between Jense and Lewis iin qualifying indicates logically that there is a problem with the car which I am sure Mclaren will find overnight through use of the car data and Paffett in the simulator.

Hopefully it can be rectified during the race - this is more evidence just how irrational the rules are - in this case those that pertain to parc ferme.

And the socialistic course [Bernie's words] that unfortunately F1 has set itself through the ban of testing which could have discovered the RBR problem, preventing the front wing situation from, happening.

The lack of testing and the parc ferme rules compromise the safety of drivers and the grand prix for fans.

[Saint Devote]

Jense's won his first grand prix from 14th on the grid at the Hungaroring.

He was just superb that day and always races better than qualifying at the best of times.

At his home track Silverstone, all fired up in the Mclaren - he CAN do it again and WIN the British Grand Prix.

LETS GO JENSE!!!! :-]

[Ranger]

Jense's won his first grand prix from 14th on the grid at the Hungaroring.

He was just superb that day and always races better than qualifying at the best of times.

At his home track Silverstone, all fired up in the Mclaren - he CAN do it again and WIN the British Grand Prix.

LETS GO JENSE!!!! :-]

If he wins a dry race today I'll eat my hat.

[Saint Devote]

If he wins a dry race today I'll eat my hat.

I hope its made of rice paper and not too sweaty - although that WILL flavor it up somewhat :s mokin: :D

Jense can kick major ASS tomorrow. Pimpin' yo! PIMPIIIIIIIN!

[mstillhere]

Jense's won his first grand prix from 14th on the grid at the Hungaroring.

He was just superb that day and always races better than qualifying at the best of times.

At his home track Silverstone, all fired up in the Mclaren - he CAN do it again and WIN the British Grand Prix.

LETS GO JENSE!!!! :-]

As much as I like Jenson, I don't think it's up to him tomorrow. It's going to be up to his car. Tomorrow morning is going to be a very busy morning for his mechanics.

[Saint Devote]

As much as I like Jenson, I don't think it's up to him tomorrow. It's going to be up to his car. Tomorrow morning is going to be a very busy morning for his mechanics.

I have complete confidence in his crew. They are as good as he is and after all - this is Mclaren.

They are the best team in racing, which is why Jense signed on :D

[e2mtt]

Vettel is off at the first corner! Running again, but last place!!! :-)

[markabilly]

and the slow butt Kube does a trulli, jams everyone behind him and causes huge loss of time...seems battle will be between Hamilton and Vesttel's Brutus

[Daniel]

Alonso is such a whiney bitch. Bring back Kimi.

[markabilly]

Lap 18, Rosbaerg around Kube,,,Amazing racing by him, and Freddie, well he did manage to keep MAssa behind him :rolleyes:

And now unless someone busts something they should not bust, the usual yawner parade to the end....unless you really care if webber can lap his team mate :confused: ..err I mean Brutus

Horner thinking, et tu bruti


opps, did freddie do his massa to the kube......................

[Dave B]

When's Alonso getting a penalty for overtaking Kubica by cutting a corner?

[RJL25]

Alonso is such a whiney bitch. Bring back Kimi.

I'm dissapointed Daniel, no attacking Webber for running Vettel out of road on the first corner, or where you too distracted by the big "chop" Vettel had at Webber off the start ;)

[Dave B]

drivethru for Alonso - red mist on standy!

[Ranger]

When's Alonso getting a penalty for overtaking Kubica by cutting a corner?

Drive through!

Safety Car!

:s hock:

Alonso has to wait for the SC to come in to serve it, he will be dead last. That is pretty tough.

[Hawkmoon]

How was Alonso supposed to give the place back to Kubica when the Renault was parked in the pits?

[markabilly]

Drive through!

Safety Car!

:s hock:

Alonso has to wait for the SC to come in to serve it, he will be dead last. That is pretty tough.
Freddie is just so lucky with those ssafety cars.....by the time he does his drive through, all those cars bunched up, he will be a long ways behind der mass and Vestall

[RJL25]

Well the stewards just look stupid in this, what was Alonso supposed to do? Drive at the apex and cause an accident?

[RJL25]

Just showed a shot of Mansell on tv thinking "man I look like a dumbass here"

All I can say is yes Nigel, yes you do.

[Daniel]

I'm dissapointed Daniel, no attacking Webber for running Vettel out of road on the first corner, or where you too distracted by the big "chop" Vettel had at Webber off the start ;)

It was push and shove stuff but nothing wrong was done.


Well the stewards just look stupid in this, what was Alonso supposed to do? Drive at the apex and cause an accident?

Of course not, but he's not meant to get an advantage from it

[Daniel]

Just showed a shot of Mansell on tv thinking "man I look like a dumbass here"

All I can say is yes Nigel, yes you do.

Huh?

[RJL25]

Huh?

Mansell is the driver standards observer, he made the decision.

and the chop thing was just a joke ;)

[Daniel]

Gutsy move by Sutil? More like a cheaty move.

[Daniel]

Yeah the right decision.....

[Ranger]

Well the stewards just look stupid in this, what was Alonso supposed to do? Drive at the apex and cause an accident?

He should have given the place back after the corner.

Unfortunately Kubica retired before he could do that.

Tough but fair, based on precedent.

Luca will need a new TV. :D

[markabilly]

Need to put same drive by on Sutile....he used the dirt

Rules are clear, one can not pass or defend anymore unless all wheels remain on the pavement at all times :rolleyes:

[RJL25]

It's not Alonso's fault that the Renault broke down, so he couldn't redress the situation. You could argue however that because the Renault broke down, Alonso would have got past anyway, therefore he didn't actually gain a benefit because the Renault broke down anyway.

[Hawkmoon]

Huh?

I think the point is that Mansell and the stewards are a bunch of dunbasses for giving Alonso a drive-through when he had no chance to give the place back.

Kubica said that he was told that Alonso would have to give back the place on the lap the Renault broke. What was Alonso supposed to do? Follow the Renault into the pits?

[Daniel]

He should have given the place back after the corner.

Unfortunately Kubica retired before he could do that.
Please stop talking sense. Did you not see Manell on that kerb forcing Alonso to gain an advantage and not give it back? Didn't you?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Daniel]

I think the point is that Mansell and the stewards are a bunch of dunbasses for giving Alonso a drive-through when he had no chance to give the place back.

Kubica said that he was told that Alonso would have to give back the place on the lap the Renault broke. What was Alonso supposed to do? Follow the Renault into the pits?

Boo-frickin-hoo

It was obvious that he should have given it back. Do we not remember Spa back in 2007 when Hamilton got Kimi like that? Alonso isn't a moron, he knew he had to give it back and didn't.

[RJL25]

Just goes to show the kind of power that Todt wielded within the FIA when he was running Ferrari, if that happened in the Todt/Schumacher days there is no way in hell that penalty would have been handed down.

[markabilly]

[quote=Hawkmoon]I think the point is that Mansell and the stewards are a bunch of dunbasses for giving Alonso a drive-through when he had no chance to give the place back.


That wiil teach Frerddie not whine and fussat the stweards......in some places it is called payback




Kubica said that he was told that Alonso would have to give back the place on the lap the Renault broke. What was Alonso supposed to do? Follow the Renault into the pits?
[/quote:13y8szzb]

Yes.

as long as none of his wheels were on the dirt

[Daniel]

What evidence do you have for that? :laugh:

[RJL25]

The point is that yes he should have redressed the situation, but the Kubica car breaking down means that not only was he not able to redress the situation, but he also no longer gained an advantage because he would have taken the position anyway when Kubica blew up

[RJL25]

What evidence do you have for that? :laugh:

Did you watch F1 5 years ago?

[Daniel]

He got past The torro rosso because of his cheating. That situation has now been redressed.

[Daniel]

Did you watch F1 5 years ago?
That's not evidence.

[markabilly]

The point is that yes he should have redressed the situation, but the Kubica car breaking down means that not only was he not able to redress the situation, but he also no longer gained an advantage because he would have taken the position anyway when Kubica blew up
or the least they could have done was think about it until one hour after the race ended and given him a .5 second penalty

[RJL25]

That's not evidence.

can you not handle a bit of light hearted banter mate without coming along beating your chest saying YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE FOR THAT!!!

[RJL25]

or the least they could have done was think about it until one hour after the race ended and given him a .5 second penalty

But then Mansell wouldn't have got his face on TV!!!

[markabilly]

and freddie tells his pit crew, to shut up....and mansell has such an ugly fat face....the years have not been kind...

[SilverArrows]

Didn't Kubica say in his interview he was told Fernando was going to give him the place back? It just happened the Renault had to retire on that same lap. That suggests a decision had already been made so it was pretty harsh to then give Alonso a drive through penalty.

[Hawkmoon]

Boo-frickin-hoo

It was obvious that he should have given it back. Do we not remember Spa back in 2007 when Hamilton got Kimi like that? Alonso isn't a moron, he knew he had to give it back and didn't.

Obvious my arse! Alonso claimed he was forced off the circuit. It's then up to the stewards to make a call. They did, once again too late, and decided to give Alonso a penalty because he didn't give back the place. Surely the fact that he couldn't should have factored into their decsion?

[RJL25]

Massa being Massa again....

[Daniel]

Obvious my arse! Alonso claimed he was forced off the circuit. It's then up to the stewards to make a call. They did, once again too late, and decided to give Alonso a penalty because he didn't give back the place. Surely the fact that he couldn't should have factored into their decsion?
Alonso didn't claim he was pushed off, he whined that he was pushed off. What was clear was that he didn't take the corner, was never in front and took a shortcut. Every driver knows you have to give the place back, if Kubica's car had failed moments later then you'd have to let it ride, but his car lasted a while longer and he didn't make any effort to give the place back. Penalty well deserved :up:

[Daniel]

can you not handle a bit of light hearted banter mate without coming along beating your chest saying YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE FOR THAT!!!

You made a claim and didn't back it up, don't try and dress it up as banter.

[markabilly]

Obvious my arse! Alonso claimed he was forced off the circuit. It's then up to the stewards to make a call. They did, once again too late, and decided to give Alonso a penalty because he didn't give back the place. Surely the fact that he couldn't should have factored into their decsion?
actually with my crummy feed, it looked like that Freddie comitted no foul...as the Kube put him there but with my IQ over 50, I am not stupid enough to be a steweard, so what do i Know????

[RJL25]

for god sake daniel are you ever off?

quite clearly it was a subjective comment about how Ferrari always seemed to get away with these kinds of things in the past whereas now they never get away with these things, it wasn't a factual claim. Your just being pig headed

[JRodrigues]

Didn't Kubica say in his interview he was told Fernando was going to give him the place back? It just happened the Renault had to retire on that same lap. That suggests a decision had already been made so it was pretty harsh to then give Alonso a drive through penalty.

How convenient.. To say that he was going to give the place back when the car was already on the pits.. Why didn't he give it right after he passed him?

[markabilly]

If it weren't for love taps, SC and steweards, this would be a very boring race....

[RJL25]

How convenient.. To say that he was going to give the place back when the car was already on the pits.. Why didn't he give it right after he passed him?

the stewards made the call that he was to redress it on that lap or get a penalty, it wasn't alonso saying he would

[Hawkmoon]

Alonso didn't claim he was pushed off, he whined that he was pushed off. What was clear was that he didn't take the corner, was never in front and took a shortcut. Every driver knows you have to give the place back, if Kubica's car had failed moments later then you'd have to let it ride, but his car lasted a while longer and he didn't make any effort to give the place back. Penalty well deserved :up:

You're such a clever guy. :dozey:

I agree that he had to give the place back. But it's not up to him to make that call when he was contesting the place and was side-by-side with the Renault. It's up to the stewards to make that call.

The stewards once again took too long to make the call, just as they did in Valencia.

[pino]

Another poor decision by the stewards :down: Alonso was supposed to lose 1 pos only, not his fault Kubica retired...so why the drive through ? :crazy:

[RJL25]

Stop making un-biased and obviously logical comments Hawkmoon!

[SilverArrows]

the stewards made the call that he was to redress it on that lap or get a penalty, it wasn't alonso saying he would

Exactly. That's what makes it so harsh considering Kubica retired.

[RJL25]

No one is really denying that if you read the rules backwards forwards and upside down then TECHNICALLY the stewards made the right decision, but it's massively harsh and thats the point, they should have taken a breath and realised that the penalty didn't fit the crime and showed a bit of discression.

[pino]

Well done Mark...I am so glad for you ! :up:

[markabilly]

First, based on what i saw, I saw no foul, unless you got some iron rule that says the wheel can not leave the area between the two white lines, in which case, Sutil also need a penalty for his move on MS

And Second, here come da stewturds, more likely than not, putting some payback on the whiner...for the second race in a row

[RJL25]

Wow - the post race radio chat!

Didn't Horner sound totally un-excited about the victory and I loved Webbers "not bad for a number 2 driver!"

Seriously... that is not a happy team

[Daniel]

Wow - the post race radio chat!

Didn't Horner sound totally un-excited about the victory and I loved Webbers "not bad for a number 2 driver!"

Seriously... that is not a happy team
Agreed. A little silly of Webber to say that on team radio tbh as he won't be popular ;) Better to just let your driving do the talking IMHO.

[slinkster]

*awaits more whining from Alonso*

Congrats to McLaren... Expected a little bit more from Lewis but it's nice to see him driving consistently. Nice drive from Button too. :)

[RJL25]

Agreed. A little silly of Webber to say that on team radio tbh as he won't be popular ;) Better to just let your driving do the talking IMHO.

Horner's tone said just as much as Webber's comments did anyway, just one was subtle and one wasn't.

[Robinho]

First, based on what i saw, I saw no foul, unless you got some iron rule that says the wheel can not leave the area between the two white lines, in which case, Sutil also need a penalty for his move on MS

And Second, here come da stewturds, more likely than not, putting some payback on the whiner...for the second race in a row

assuming your referring to Alonso, there is a rule about all 4 wheels not being over the white line, and aout gaining an advantage by cutting the circuit.

He should have given the place back on that lap, rather than drive off into the sunset moaning about being forced off. he cought an unlucky brerak with the safety car, but he could have taken the drive through the lap before.

it took a few laps to investigate, but no more than normal.

[ArrowsFA1]

Great result :up: Well done Mark Webber and his side of the garage :s mokin:

[Hawkmoon]

Agreed. A little silly of Webber to say that on team radio tbh as he won't be popular ;) Better to just let your driving do the talking IMHO.

You're right but Webber probably felt like a number 2 during the last 24 hours or so.

[Robinho]

I think Marks radio thing was probably pretty tongue in cheek on both sides, it suits everyone else to think the team is imploding

[Hawkmoon]

assuming your referring to Alonso, there is a rule about all 4 wheels not being over the white line, and aout gaining an advantage by cutting the circuit.

He should have given the place back on that lap, rather than drive off into the sunset moaning about being forced off. he cought an unlucky brerak with the safety car, but he could have taken the drive through the lap before.

it took a few laps to investigate, but no more than normal.

If it was as clear cut as you suggest it would have taken 1 replay to make the call. It took more than a couple of laps. The stewards got it right in that Alonso had to give the place back but totally wrong in giving him the drive through.

[wedge]

Worried for McLaren after quali but its still a damn good race car

[truefan72]

very happy with the results

very happy indeed!

not bad for a #2 driver!!


And all things considering an outstanding drive for Hamilton, a good drive for Button, and an encouraginh result for Rosberg, as well as Barrichello & Kobasyashi along with their teams

As to the alonso situation, it was harsh, but it would have been a non issue if he had given the spot back. you don't need to wait for the stewards to tell you. The team could tell him to give the spot back just to make sure.

It was a great race. BBC interviewing that creep Horner.

[Valve Bounce]

If it weren't for love taps, SC and steweards, this would be a very boring race....

Yeah! you missed Valve Bounce's HEX in Vettel

[RJL25]

I think Marks radio thing was probably pretty tongue in cheek on both sides, it suits everyone else to think the team is imploding

Interesting take... but Horner did sound dead set surly on the radio, he said "you drove very well" as sarcastically as he possibly could....

[ShiftingGears]

I think Marks radio thing was probably pretty tongue in cheek on both sides, it suits everyone else to think the team is imploding

I agree. But then choosing who he wants on the podium...

[markabilly]

I think Marks radio thing was probably pretty tongue in cheek on both sides, it suits everyone else to think the team is imploding
I might agree, except Horner!!!! His tone clearly saw things differently like he was clearly thinking.....et tu brutus

Clearly Web is not the chosen one....

[RJL25]

BBC interviewing that creep Horner.

What's he saying? We're not getting that on the Aussie telecast

[RJL25]

Horner and RBR may as well be open and honest about it now, Vettel is the number 1 and Webber is the petulant number 2

[Dave B]

Back on a proper keyboard!

Alonso well and truly DID deserve that penalty. He cut a corner to pass Kubica and refused to yield. By the time Robert retired, Alonso had passed another car - it was clear he never intended to give the place back. He can't bleat on about Lewis taking an advantage when he's shown himself willing to do exactly the same thing, and he can't bleat about his penalty either.

[AndyL]

The point is that yes he should have redressed the situation, but the Kubica car breaking down means that not only was he not able to redress the situation, but he also no longer gained an advantage because he would have taken the position anyway when Kubica blew up

I don't think it's true that Alonso had no longer gained an advantage. He was really quick immediately after passing Kubica, and that enabled him to stay ahead of Button when Button stopped. If he hadn't passed Kubica, or had immediately given the place back, then he may have lost out to Button.

The result of the penalty was undoubtedly very harsh, what else should the stewards have done though? Just let it slide? A 5 second penalty after the race would have been more proportionate to the offence, don't know if that was still within their power if they had already decided that Alonso should let Kubica back past.

[Robinho]

Back on a proper keyboard!

Alonso well and truly DID deserve that penalty. He cut a corner to pass Kubica and refused to yield. By the time Robert retired, Alonso had passed another car - it was clear he never intended to give the place back. He can't bleat on about Lewis taking an advantage when he's shown himself willing to do exactly the same thing, and he can't bleat about his penalty either.

100% agree

[Daniel]

He can't bleat on about Lewis taking an advantage when he's shown himself willing to do exactly the same thing, and he can't bleat about his penalty either.

Oh yes he can!

Alonso is without a doubt the bleater of the season so far :p Lewis did things by the rules and took his penalty and got lucky :( Schumacher passed me under green flags at Monaco :( I passed Kubica by shortcutting the track, didn't let him back and got a penalty for it :(

http://doogs.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/whambulance.jpg

[markabilly]

very make sure.

It was a great race. BBC interviewing that creep Horner.


What's he saying? We're not getting that on the Aussie telecast


Horner is giving his Mark Anthony speech......

[truefan72]

Back on a proper keyboard!

Alonso well and truly DID deserve that penalty. He cut a corner to pass Kubica and refused to yield. By the time Robert retired, Alonso had passed another car - it was clear he never intended to give the place back. He can't bleat on about Lewis taking an advantage when he's shown himself willing to do exactly the same thing, and he can't bleat about his penalty either.

and if it were the other way around he would have been on the radio telling the team to talk to the stewards.

Vettel once again showing poor class in his post race bbc interview
saying "I guess hamilton achieved today what he tried and couldn't in Valencia" referring to the first lap incident. :down:

[Daniel]

and if it were the other way around he would have been on the radio telling the team to talk to the stewards.

Vettel once again showing poor class in his post race bbc interview
saying "I guess hamilton achieved today what he tried and couldn't in Valencia" referring to the first lap incident. :down:
Well Lewis did give him a puncture..... It wasn't deliberate but it still happened.

[Hawkmoon]

Alonso passed Kubica on lap 17. Kubica retired on lap 20. Alonso was given a drive through on lap 27. Why did it take 10 laps for the stewards to make that call?

Renault would have been on the radio to race control as soon as they saw Alonso's pass. Kubica himself said that Renault told him that Alonso would have to give him the place back on lap 20 just before he retired. If Renault knew that, so too did Ferrari. Kubica's retirement made that situation impossible.

[VkmSpouge]

Good race once the safety car came out. Vettel's drive through the field was excellent to watch and with Mark Webber controlling the race it empathises Red Bull's dominance at Silverstone. Lewis Hamilton did really well to hang onto Mark Webber and keep him honest. It was a good race for McLaren with Button climbing ten places, they have been maximising their points of late.

Alonso's penalty was deserved and was entirely avoidable had he just let Robert Kubica back through immediately or in following laps while the Renault was still going. The opportunity was there to avoid the penalty. It was just unfortunate timing that the Sauber sprayed debris over half the track which caused the safety car to come out and hurt Alonso even further.

Good race for Rubens Barrichello and Kamui Kobayashi, both of them scoring decent points for the second race in a row. Well done to Sakon Yamamoto for actually making the finish of the race, I really thought he would spin off and retire.

[Valve Bounce]

Well Lewis did give him a puncture..... It wasn't deliberate but it still happened.

Lewis must have shot Vettel's tyre with his BB gun :p :
By hte way Daniel, how did you enjoy Marks race? I put a Hex on Vettel just before the start. :D

[Daniel]

Alonso passed Kubica on lap 17. Kubica retired on lap 20.

One could also ask why Fernando didn't give the position back during those 3 laps? If he'd done that then where would he have been?

[TMorel]

I asked in chat about comparing it to the situation in Spa 2008
Lewis overtakes off track, gives the place back(ish), then Kimi fails to finish but Lewis still got a penalty.
Surely that means Ferarri should know the score

[Daniel]

Lewis must have shot Vettel's tyre with his BB gun :p :
By hte way Daniel, how did you enjoy Marks race? I put a Hex on Vettel just before the start. :D

I thought Mark drove a good race. I'm not one of these petty people who sit there bawling because a driver I don't particularly like did well.

[UltimateDanGTR]

very good race, though without the safety car I feel it would have become a dull affair thereafter.

Im glad to see some consistency in the stewards decisons, Alonso forced off track, cuts corner and takes place, then gets penalised despite kubica retiring, sounds very similar to spa 2008 to me. which is a good sign.

[Daniel]

I asked in chat about comparing it to the situation in Spa 2008
Lewis overtakes off track, gives the place back(ish), then Kimi fails to finish but Lewis still got a penalty.
Surely that means Ferarri should know the score

Exactly my take on events as well. Everyone knew the score except Alonso and he paid for it.

Oh and just a correction, wasn't it Spa 2007?

[Dave B]

I asked in chat about comparing it to the situation in Spa 2008
Lewis overtakes off track, gives the place back(ish), then Kimi fails to finish but Lewis still got a penalty.
Surely that means Ferarri should know the score

This :up:

I don't think Alonso deliberately cut the corner - it was a simple racing incident. But having gained the advantage he should have given the place back. He didn't, and by going on to overtake the Toro Rosso ahead of him he made it clear that he never intended to.

Kubica didn't retire until two or three laps later, Alonso had plenty of time to correct the situation if he so wished. His penalty was deserved, perhaps unlucky with the timing of the safety car, but totally justified.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Exactly my take on events as well. Everyone knew the score except Alonso and he paid for it.

Oh and just a correction, wasn't it Spa 2007?

no, it was 2008 ;)

Raikkonen won in 2007.

[ShiftingGears]

Oh and just a correction, wasn't it Spa 2007?

No, that event was relatively uneventful with Kimi leading a Ferrari 1-2

[Daniel]

no, it was 2008 ;)

Raikkonen won in 2007.
Correct you are :) My bad!

[Dave B]

I know: I was there :p

[Daniel]

I know: I was there :p
*shuts up* :p

[Norwegian Blue]

For anyone else watching the BBC coverage, i swear this is one of the first seasons where they've been able to do this relaxed drivers chat stuff afterwards, with Jenson and Rubens... I don't remember this kind of coverage ever before! Having the newly confident and chilled Jenson must be a factor! I think it's fantastic!

[truefan72]

I asked in chat about comparing it to the situation in Spa 2008
Lewis overtakes off track, gives the place back(ish), then Kimi fails to finish but Lewis still got a penalty.
Surely that means Ferarri should know the score

:up:

[Valve Bounce]

I thought Mark drove a good race. I'm not one of these petty people who sit there bawling because a driver I don't particularly like did well.
No! not that! about my hex!!

[Somebody]

(double post, see two posts down)

[steveaki13]

A good GP, not the best ever but never the less a better race for me than last year.

I am really interested in the Red Bull problems as the go forward to Vettels home race.
How much will Webber want to win and more than that dominate Vettel their, like last year.

[Somebody]

Re: Alonso, It's very simple - "during practice and the race, drivers may use only the track". Alonso gained an advantage through not doing so. Ergo, he should have given the place back AT THE NEXT CORNER. He didn't. Ergo, he became eligible for a drive-though or Stop/Go penalty. Game over.

[Telling him to give the place back is tantamount to a final warning. If you don't - or by that point can't - then you get penalised because the stewards can no longer turn a blind eye to it. The rule-breaking is, however, holding onto the place for ANY length of time.]

Oh, and for those saying "Kubica retired, so Alonso didn't gain an advantage" - how far ahead of RK was Alonso when Kubica was forced to slow by his car trouble? There's your advantage gained, measured in seconds.

[Mia 01]

I was expecting grat things from Alonso before the season, but so far.

[christophulus]

Wow, an agreement on a penalty... that must be a first? :p

Good race though, spoiled slightly by our Sky box packing up mid-way through.

[markabilly]

Just got to see the race on real TV....the in-car shows that the kube bumped FA off the track, and at that point, looked like Fred had already gotten the upper hand, so I see no advantage gained

When one car forces another off track, I see no reason to require the car forced off track to give up that which he clearly had BEFORE he went off track.

and then the wait....the wait....the wait....

Sorry, that was stupid, even if all wheels are off the track, this is stupid.

Just bump a guy off the track, and then get his place....

and then where is the advantage when the engine blows....

[jens]

Before the race I suspected it may be a procession, but the reality turned out quite different! Thankfully this circuit enabled overtaking as well, so we saw some nice battles.

Alonso was unfortunate with the timing of penalty, like Rosberg at Singapore '09. But his cutting and pass on Kubica was blatant and he should have given the position back. Funny that there was a touch between the two Ferraris in the beginning, which was seen in replay only after the race. :p : Didn't look like either concentrated on taking each other into account there.

Overtaking Schumacher is usually not easy, but Sutil managed it in nice fashion, catching the old-timer half-asleep. Force Indias are one of the hardest cars to pass due to high top-speed, which Vettel and Alonso found out like Hamilton did in Malaysia.

Vettel got some damage limitation points, but unclear, how much are these going to help him in the championship in such - erm, cursed? - season anyway.

[markabilly]

Fred made the pass and Kube was trying to take it back when he pushed Fred off the track...

[Dave B]

Just got to see the race on real TV....the in-car shows that the kube bumped FA off the track, and at that point, looked like Fred had already gotten the upper hand, so I see no advantage gained

When one car forces another off track, I see no reason to require the car forced off track to give up that which he clearly had BEFORE he went off track.

and then the wait....the wait....the wait....

Sorry, that was stupid, even if all wheels are off the track, this is stupid.

Just bump a guy off the track, and then get his place....

and then where is the advantage when the engine blows....
Following that logic, where was Lewis' advantage at Spa 2008? Kimi forced him off track, he cut the corner and gained the place, gave the place back, then repassed... then Kimi threw it off the track all on his own a few corners later.

The slagging that Hamilton got on this forum was amazing... then two years on Alonso does the same thing and people defend him!

[jens]

Fred made the pass and Kube was trying to take it back when he pushed Fred off the track...

There wasn't anything to "take back" for Kubica as Alonso was never ahead of him, maybe at best alongside in the braking area.

[Daniel]

Following that logic, where was Lewis' advantage at Spa 2008? Kimi forced him off track, he cut the corner and gained the place, gave the place back, then repassed... then Kimi threw it off the track all on his own a few corners later.

The slagging that Hamilton got on this forum was amazing... then two years on Alonso does the same thing and people defend him!

I'd just like to point out that I've stayed consistent and I thought Lewis was in the wrong then and Alonso in the wrong now

[Dave B]

I'd just like to point out that I've stayed consistent and I thought Lewis was in the wrong then and Alonso in the wrong now
Furry muff.

[F1boat]

Great race, I am very happy for Mark!!! Justice prevailed today!

[DazzlaF1]

I asked in chat about comparing it to the situation in Spa 2008
Lewis overtakes off track, gives the place back(ish), then Kimi fails to finish but Lewis still got a penalty.
Surely that means Ferarri should know the score

My thoughts exactly :up:

After Spa 2008, Ferrari should have known better, it cant be one rule for them and one for everyone else

[Wasted Talent]

My thoughts exactly :up:

After Spa 2008, Ferrari should have known better, it cant be one rule for them and one for everyone else

It usually is - one rule for Ferrari one rule for the rest........

WT

[truefan72]

Just got to see the race on real TV....the in-car shows that the kube bumped FA off the track, and at that point, looked like Fred had already gotten the upper hand, so I see no advantage gained

When one car forces another off track, I see no reason to require the car forced off track to give up that which he clearly had BEFORE he went off track.

and then the wait....the wait....the wait....

Sorry, that was stupid, even if all wheels are off the track, this is stupid.

Just bump a guy off the track, and then get his place....

and then where is the advantage when the engine blows....

i refer you to france 2007 (or was it 2008?)where Hamilton already made the pass on the car behind and his momentum carried him off track. He was then asses a drive through penalty, although he already made the pass and did not gain an advantage over the car behind.

So you can use that incident as the precedent if you don't like spa 2008 :\

[markabilly]

Following that logic, where was Lewis' advantage at Spa 2008? Kimi forced him off track, he cut the corner and gained the place, gave the place back, then repassed... then Kimi threw it off the track all on his own a few corners later.

The slagging that Hamilton got on this forum was amazing... then two years on Alonso does the same thing and people defend him!
I fussed mightly that the penalty on LH was wrong, WRONG....

Anyway

If FA momentum had taken him off track, I would agree, but it is NOT what happenned


This is different, FA was slightly ahead, and Kube was cooked, and since FA had the inside line for the next corner, game over...but then Kube bumps him and pushes him off...and then loses momentum...so, I have no problem with what FA did

I suppose he could have turned into him to stay on track and taken them both out....In any event, while at first glance it does appear that his momentum took himself off track, that is clearly not what happenned...

OTOH, the penalty should be to give the place back...TAKE AWAY ADVANTAGE GAINED..and since Kube was now gone..(and the merry crew of stewards deliberated again for hours) .....well too late for that, so the next thing they do is really stupid.

Anyway, FA makes millions doing what I would do for free....so screw all of them!!!!

[wedge]

There's Hungary 2006 where Schumi cutting and he got no penalty and again in Canada this year when he chopped across Massa and still no penalty.

Sometimes decision go for or against you.

There's a case for holding out but really Alonso should've given the position back becauase he would've caught up again with Kubica.

[wedge]

Following that logic, where was Lewis' advantage at Spa 2008? Kimi forced him off track, he cut the corner and gained the place, gave the place back, then repassed... then Kimi threw it off the track all on his own a few corners later.

The slagging that Hamilton got on this forum was amazing... then two years on Alonso does the same thing and people defend him!

IIRC the stewards got most of the slagging and not Lewis.

[Saint Devote]

Glory glory hallelujah, glory glory hallelujah, glory glory hallelujah, the SAINTS go marching IN, IN, IN!!!!

Wonderful WARRIOR Webber Whacks "W"ettel!!

The war continues and today Webber showed that he will not be vanquished by the bias of Vienna.

What a great sight to see Vettel CRACK under pressure as RBR's precious little boy is shown what it means to race with men.

Webber destroying Vettel [who resorted to dirty tactics to pass Sutil] and Jense in FOURTH - great British grand prix :-]]] Booyah!!!!

[Bullet]

Drivers are there to drive, not decide whether or not to give themselves a penalty. A driver should take any advantage they can, their competitors will... and should be expected to. This wasn't a clear cut case, it even took the stewards a few laps to make a decision. Alonso didn't outbreak himself and shoot the corner, he got bumped off while they were side by side. I think it's perfectly justifiable for him to keep pushing and let the team and stewards sort it out. Giving the position back is fair... there was a slight argument the team could have made to the stewards but once the decision was made I doubt Ferrari and Alonso were flat out refusing to give it back. But, it's not Ferrari's fault that the Renault died so what was Alonso to do?

[Bullet]

Oh... and way to go Webber!!! Would like to see him win the WDC.

[Saint Devote]

Drivers are there to drive, not decide whether or not to give themselves a penalty. A driver should take any advantage they can, their competitors will... and should be expected to. This wasn't a clear cut case, it even took the stewards a few laps to make a decision. Alonso didn't outbreak himself and shoot the corner, he got bumped off while they were side by side. I think it's perfectly justifiable for him to keep pushing and let the team and stewards sort it out. Giving the position back is fair... there was a slight argument the team could have made to the stewards but once the decision was made I doubt Ferrari and Alonso were flat out refusing to give it back. But, it's not Ferrari's fault that the Renault died so what was Alonso to do?

The problem relates to the rule apparently 16.4 - if a driver gains position with all four wheels off the track there WILL be a drive through penalty.

So even if Alonso gave the position back he would still have had the penalty.

[wedge]

I would just like to give the new layout :up: :up:

Still keeps the essence of high speed.

Tilke take note - we don't need your 1km straights!

[F1boat]

Glory glory hallelujah, glory glory hallelujah, glory glory hallelujah, the SAINTS go marching IN, IN, IN!!!!

Wonderful WARRIOR Webber Whacks "W"ettel!!

The war continues and today Webber showed that he will not be vanquished by the bias of Vienna.

What a great sight to see Vettel CRACK under pressure as RBR's precious little boy is shown what it means to race with men.

Webber destroying Vettel [who resorted to dirty tactics to pass Sutil] and Jense in FOURTH - great British grand prix :-]]] Booyah!!!!

YES!!!

[Daniel]

What a great sight to see Vettel CRACK under pressure as RBR's precious little boy is shown what it means to race with men.

Explain to me how Vettel cracked under pressure? Would Webber have been able to drive around a puncture? No. Well then he didn't crack.

[Daniel]

Vettel was too busy focussing on Mark's move at the first corner he didn't see Hamilton on the inside and cut in far too erratically IMO. He got an unfortunate puncture, but thats racing. I think with all the upset within the Red Bull team, maybe Vettel forgot about his second biggest threat off the start and that was Lewis.. :)
That's hardly what I'd call cracking though. Lewis driving his tyres to destruction in China and then putting it into the pit entrance kitty litter. That's cracking.

[Mia 01]

The Championship is slowely slipping out of reach for alonso.

[wedge]

That's hardly what I'd call cracking though. Lewis driving his tyres to destruction in China and then putting it into the pit entrance kitty litter. That's cracking.

People will react to pressure in different ways. Hamilton stupidly willing to go over the limit and Schumi is willing to crash into an opponent or park his car.

And I agree Vettel didn't crack, just the usual antics because his aggressive driving have not been out of the ordinary.

[Valve Bounce]

People will react to pressure in different ways. Hamilton stupidly willing to go over the limit and Schumi is willing to crash into an opponent or park his car.

And I agree Vettel didn't crack, just the usual antics because his aggressive driving have not been out of the ordinary.

Had Vettel driven straight after the start, I just wonder whether he would have won the race or at least come second.

[Saint Devote]

Explain to me how Vettel cracked under pressure? Would Webber have been able to drive around a puncture? No. Well then he didn't crack.

Question: have you been in an extreme pressure situation where physical action is required? There is an extreme of emotion where one does not think because it is too quick and therefore your mind and your movement must react immediately and properly.

[incidentally it was THIS that Alain Prost found lacking when he drove an f1 car some years after he retired - just to see maybe....]

That was where Vettel was yesterday at the start. As a top racing driver he is a highly trained professional. Without traction control the driver is required to take off.

With Webber just to his right and the pressure of the situation from qualifying he overdid the clutch where normally he does not - at the start.

In such a situation that is cracking under pressure - and Vettel admitted his mistake with the clutch.

The only experience I have are newly trained troops when having to respond to fire for the first time and despite constant training, they tend to shoot and empty the entire clip because their finger gets "stuck". With a bit of "encouragement" that sort of bs ends.

Vettel is a weaker driver than say Lewis - and he showed this in Valencia at the restart. Both Lewis and Vettel do not have the trained calm yet of "battle vets" such as Rubens and Jense although Lewis is ahead of Seb.

Webber does not crack under THAT sort of pressure - he tends to have a red mist that can get out of hand when he becomes flustered.

In fact, given what heppened in Valencia and the icy cool way he responded at Silverstone, he is definitely the new "Ice Man". Nice :D

There is a very interesting article written by the Lewis "uberfan" Mark Hughes in this week's Autosport that writes about a similar position that Schumi may find himself. It has been raised by Niki Lauda and is very astute because Niki found a similar thing on HIS return, but computed a solution to beat Prost.

And the driver that was the pioneer of the Schumi way is Lauda of course.

This is a mind situation and drivers HAVE to manage it otherwise what heppaened to Vettel at the start, happens.

[Saint Devote]

Had Vettel driven straight after the start, I just wonder whether he would have won the race or at least come second.

He could not help himself because he worked out his plan of action before the start and it was the implementation that went all awry.

In Valencia he ALMOST did the same thing at the restart in his haste to keep Lewis at bay. He was just lucky that Hamilton appeared mesmerized by the German's gearbox [they teach you that sort of problem solving at racing school at Windfield] and reacted slowly.

It is funny when all this basic stuff happens to the best but it also shows how wonderfully human these drivers are :D :s mokin:

[ShiftingGears]

Again a suggestion that the sharing of set-ups between RBR drivers has been rather one-way, as we heard pre-race. I think that issue needs to get discussed behind closed doors as well.

[christophulus]

Apparently the stewards weren't being slow in deciding Alonso's penalty:



Although the penalty was given nine laps after Alonso passed Kubica, Whiting said Ferrari was advised to let Kubica through immediately, but that the team decided against it.

"We told Ferrari three times that in my opinion they should give the position back to Kubica," Whiting was quoted as saying by Autosprint magazine.

"And we told them that immediately, right after the overtaking manoeuvre. On the radio, I suggested to them that if they exchange position again, there would be no need for the stewards to intervene.

"But they didn't do that and on the third communication they said that Kubica was by then too far back to let him regain the position.

"It's not true at all that the stewards took too long to decide. For us the facts were clear immediately: Alonso had gained an advantage by cutting the track."

(emphasis added)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85258

Maybe that's why Ferrari didn't complain too much?

[wedge]

Had Vettel driven straight after the start, I just wonder whether he would have won the race or at least come second.

Hard to say. Vettel got such a poor start he had Hamilton breathing down his neck.

[mstillhere]

Apparently the stewards weren't being slow in deciding Alonso's penalty:
Yep, only when it comes down to punish LH things get slow, confused, unsure. Oh please.......pathetic :(

[wedge]

Yep, only when it comes down to punish LH things get slow, confused, unsure. Oh please.......pathetic :(

The stewards had to find conclusive proof in Valencia and it was only until Charlie and his team stumbled on the helicopter footage which provided it.

[Dave B]

Apparently the stewards weren't being slow in deciding Alonso's penalty:



(emphasis added)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85258

Maybe that's why Ferrari didn't complain too much?
And yet theytook a deliberate decision not to give the place back to Kubica, despite the FIA's "advice". Arrogant or stupid?

[ShiftingGears]

Yep, only when it comes down to punish LH things get slow, confused, unsure. Oh please.......pathetic :(

Anyone with eyes knew that Alonso gained an advantage by going off-track, and therefore an obvious decision could be taken much more quickly than the one concerning Hamilton.

[wedge]

And yet theytook a deliberate decision not to give the place back to Kubica, despite the FIA's "advice". Arrogant or stupid?

Charlie Whiting is Race Director and not a steward.

Schumi has got away with murder before so it was worth a try but probably not on this occasion.

[Daniel]

And yet theytook a deliberate decision not to give the place back to Kubica, despite the FIA's "advice". Arrogant or stupid?
To take a line from the Simpsons.... A little from column a, a little from column b

[DazzlaF1]

And yet theytook a deliberate decision not to give the place back to Kubica, despite the FIA's "advice". Arrogant or stupid?

Very stupid on Ferrari's part especially when reading this line further down the article


Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali said the team did not ask Alonso to let Kubica through because it did not feel the Spaniard has gained an advantage.

Domenicali needs to learn that you do NOT follow your own judgement on these matters, once Whiting and/or the stewards tell you to give the place back, YOU DO IT! And it does not matter one jot how far Kubica is behind, he could have slowed up, given the place back and Alonso (who clearly had the faster car) could have retaken him later in the lap, and no-one would have complained.

[Hawkmoon]

And yet theytook a deliberate decision not to give the place back to Kubica, despite the FIA's "advice". Arrogant or stupid?

Stupid I'd say. In light of this I have to eat some humble pie after complaining about the decision during the race. This was a stupid call on Ferrari's part and their excuse that Kubica was too far behind to give the place back is bollocks.

Why on earth they didn't pass Charlie's instructions on to Alonso and then back him to re-pass the Renault I don't know. He's a two-time world champion for god's sake! If you don't think he can pass a slower car what the hell did you hire him for?

Stupid, stupid call.

[Saint Devote]

The problem is that the miscreants are the same people most of the time.

[Mia 01]

With this team, their management and their drivers, the No 1 very insecure,. The solution, make a superior car. Or reconsider the best driver, yes that one.

[mstillhere]

Well Ferrari didn't help their cause by ignoring the advice from the stewards at Silverstone so its a bit rich for the team and fans to whinge about Lewis Hamilton the previous race. Its not his fault it took 20 minutes for the stewards to clarify whether a penalty was needed, and its not his fault Ferrari ignored advice to let Kubica through. Glass half empty or what?.. :eek:

There two issues being discussed:
1. Was LH wrong in passing te sc? Period.
2. Was the punishement handed slowly? Well, compared to the speed they got Alonso punished the answer is a giant yes. There is no question Ferrari were at fault. I have no idea what kind of pot they smoke every other Sunday. But the difference between me and the McLaren fans is that a have no desire to defend what's wrong. Unfortunately I can't say the same thing about the McLAren's fans. LH benifeted enormously from the FIA slowness and Alonso suffered enourmously for teh FIA fast performance. Things just seem to go in one direction, no matter how you look at it. Isn't that funny?

[truefan72]

Apparently the stewards weren't being slow in deciding Alonso's penalty:



(emphasis added)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85258

Maybe that's why Ferrari didn't complain too much?

explains a lot. Ferrari have no one to blame but themsleves

[truefan72]

But there it is. You've fallen into the trap of not properly reading what is written. No Mclaren fan here defended what Lewis did as it was clearly a rule break, and I've never said otherwise. What annoyed me was the hypocrital stance some took by going down the breach of safety route which is frankly laughable when you look at how many drivers have ignored yellow flags in practise this season The fact that it was half a cars length also leaves it open to the possibility of him getting a punishment by the skin of his teeth. I did make this point and didn't get a response first time around which spoke volumns.

The 'Us and Them' mentality in either of these situations is ridiculous as the FIA are the body responsible in both to a degree. Its not Lewis's fault it took them so long to dish out a punishment (and they did issue one), and its not the Mclaren fans fault that Ferrari had advice to let Kubica through and possibly escape punishment but they chose to ignore that advice and then cry about it later. Alonso was rightly p!ssed off after the race and he only has his team to blame, not the FIA and certainly not Lewis and his fans. :rolleyes:

excellent post

its hard for some to find ways to vent their anger and unwisely misplace their own frustration when simple common sense would suffice. But then again when things were so tilted towards Ferrari for over a decade, it must seem like the world is coming to an end when punishment is now handed fairly across the board. and in the latter incident even given 3 courtesy warnings and advice to concede the position. I'm sure if it was the other way around he would be raging as to why LH would be given 3 opportunities to escape punishment and how pathetic the Stewards are and how that shows a clear bias towards maclaren, etc, etc, etc.

[wedge]

Stupid I'd say. In light of this I have to eat some humble pie after complaining about the decision during the race. This was a stupid call on Ferrari's part and their excuse that Kubica was too far behind to give the place back is bollocks.

Why on earth they didn't pass Charlie's instructions on to Alonso and then back him to re-pass the Renault I don't know. He's a two-time world champion for god's sake! If you don't think he can pass a slower car what the hell did you hire him for?

Stupid, stupid call.

Charlie is Race Director and not a steward so his say is not final.

Charlie has been wrong before. Magny Cours 2007 IIRC when LH short cut a chicane McLaren asked for Charlie for assistance. Charlie said it was OK and had did not have to give back a place but the Stewards still penalised LH with drive-thru penalty.

[truefan72]

Charlie is Race Director and not a steward so his say is not final.

Charlie has been wrong before. Magny Cours 2007 IIRC when LH short cut a chicane McLaren asked for Charlie for assistance. Charlie said it was OK and had did not have to give back a place but the Stewards still penalised LH with drive-thru penalty.

in that incident Charlie was probably correct, but the stewards had their own agenda. LH made the pass already and did not overtake the car in front. He was been given a penalty for simply being off the track which still remains a dubious decision, given that we have had a few similar incidents since then and no penalties have been issued. Most recently MSC/Kubica in Canada.

But this time around he told them that if they gave the position back that would pretty much end the matter and Ferrari's response was to 1 - do nothing. although being asked to 3 times
2 - Not give the driver ( a very savvy 2 time WDC and currently probably the best driver on the grid) the option to decide what's best for him,

3 - and then telling the race control that he was too far ahead to give the position back. Which only compounds the mistake with arrogance.

[Daniel]

in that incident Charlie was probably correct, but the stewards had their own agenda. LH made the pass already and did not overtake the car in front. He was been given a penalty for simply being off the track which still remains a dubious decision, given that we have had a few similar incidents since then and no penalties have been issued. Most recently MSC/Kubica in Canada.

Lewis overtook Kimi, dropped back into his slipstream and then used that to overtake him. Whilst not as bad as what Alonso did, he still got an advantage out of it.

[truefan72]

Lewis overtook Kimi, dropped back into his slipstream and then used that to overtake him. Whilst not as bad as what Alonso did, he still got an advantage out of it.

that was spa 2008

but i guess it set a precedent that you cannot slip stream the driver immediately. I have learned to accept that decision (although I felt it was a bit overboard since he did give the spot back, and in that same sequence of events kimi weaved and bobbed and nearly took him out) and just hope that the same sort of verdict would be applied to others. But I do get your point about the slight advantage of slipstreaming ;)

[airshifter]

To me it was clear that Alonso gained advantage by passing Kubica when off track. He should have known at that instant to give the position back... I did.

Though I agree that the final decision from the stewards should have taken place within maybe 1 lap at the most, I can't agree that they should have ignored a penalty since Kubica had his car expire. Alonso would have been held up longer behind Kubica if not for the illegal pass.

In this case:

Stewards 0

Alonso 0

Kubica 0 because his car broke anyway