Whats the best option for 2011

[MJW]

If someone could set up a poll for this (as I don't know how to) what do you think is the best option for drivers in 2011. The WRC is clearly a Citroen / Ford show. You can see that from the way the rules are made, the way they control what event organisers do, (Malcolm saying he wants to go back to Cardiff rather than have remote service in Mid Wales on RGB e.g) It looks like Citroen will have 4 "new" cars and Ford 4 "new" cars for 2011 so the factory 4 will be covered, what about the rest, currently in WRC cars, S2KCup, PCWRC and JWRC?
If you, as many are relying on sponsors money, Henning, Sandell etc. whats the best place to be in 2011. WRC just because its WRC, with a tv programme dedicated to the support event you have entered on TV a week later, with NO during event coverage / publicity for your sponsors or IRC with the excellent Eurosport coverage?
Also rans in WRC or IRC, including 2WD cup instead of JWRC for the front wheel drive cars?
If we cant have a poll, just comment as per other threads.

[N.O.T]

stay home.

[AndyRAC]

If I was Mr Loeb, I'd be having a word with Olivier Quesnel about getting into the Peugeot 90XX HDi FAP.........at the start of it's Le Mans/Sportscar programme.

And while Ford/ Citroen think the WRC is their personal fiefdom - Jean Todt should go hardline with them - if they don't like it - TOUGH!! Go somewere else, a sport shouldn't be held to ransom by the competitors.

[xavier]

And while Ford/ Citroen think the WRC is their personal fiefdom - Jean Todt should go hardline with them - if they don't like it - TOUGH!! Go somewere else, a sport shouldn't be held to ransom by the competitors.

I've really a hard time to see why the FIA would try to alienate the only 2 manufacturers that committed to the WRC... can you explain your reasoning?

[AndyRAC]

I've really a hard time to see why the FIA would try to alienate the only 2 manufacturers that committed to the WRC... can you explain your reasoning?

Simple - because there are only 2 Manufacturers, they can get what they want - to the detriment of the sport. The governing body should be deciding the future of the sport (in consultation with Manufacturers). Look what's happening by listening to Ford/Citroen - only a possible 8 cars next year.

[Tomi]

The governing body should be deciding the future of the sport (in consultation with Manufacturers).

And what make you think they dont do like that?

[sal]

Read Martin Holmes article in GPWEEK! Have to agree with his view that Ford and Citroen have rejected proposals to reduce development costs and attract new entries. Quesnel quoted as saying Citroen dont mind spending as long as they "get value for money" and that the FIA "have lost control of their premier rally championship". Doesnt make appealing reading when a comparison with the IRC and this weekends event in Ypres is made...

[Viking]

When Ford and Citroen says they only can have 4 cars ready to the start of the season where does this leave Petter (and other paying customers)??
Maybe Skoda can give him a call to run a "semiofficial" Fabia team...

[AndyRAC]

When Ford and Citroen says they only can have 4 cars ready to the start of the season where does this leave Petter (and other paying customers)??
Maybe Skoda can give him a call to run a "semiofficial" Fabia team...

Seb hasn't signed a contract for next year. Maybe this is his last year full time in the WRC. Peugeot have a new Sportscar for next year, 90XX HDi FAP - maybe he wants to be in at the start of the programme.

[MJW]

Seb hasn't signed a contract for next year. Maybe this is his last year full time in the WRC. Peugeot have a new Sportscar for next year, 90XX HDi FAP - maybe he wants to be in at the start of the programme.

Autosport magazine published in UK today confirm that both Audi and Peugot have commited to the new championship for sportscars in 2011, this will be a 7 round world championship but with the classic LeMans 24 hour race attracting double points. Seb Loeb was a visitor to this years LeMans race and indicated that he would like to race ther in 2011.

Interesting thread...
In my opinion today it is impossible to come into this sport as a "new" team and expect to win in a short to medium term unless you have serious backers.

FORD and CITROEN have such a huge "know how" about building and running competitive rally cars. A new team would need full manu. back up and enough finances for 3 years in the order of 20 million Euro per year to even think about beating these guys.

After that, you need to get your hands on a proper driver, which seems to be a died out species nowadays, thanks to the FORD pay and drive philosophy.

If you want newcomers to even think about coming in, they need to have a chance.

First thing FIA needs to do is standardise parts that FORD and CITROEN spend millions on in development, ie : GEARBOX, DIFFS, ENGINE, TURBO, CPU, BRAKES, SHOCKS.

Then they have to BAN all exotic materials, ie: Titanium, beryllium, Carbon fibre, Magnesium alloys, etc..
These materials cost fortunes.
The richest teams want to use these as much as possible so as to have such a light car that, they actually add weight in specific areas of the car to make the equilibrium right and lower the center of gravity.

I believe the 03 Focus had a rear differential guard which had a weight of 80 kilos (just the metal part to protect it from stones). They needed two guys to remove it at service.
This is an example of how they managed to have 50/50 weight distribution and it is how they can get cars which have such unbelievable handling.

Small past teams like SUZUKI and SKODA had no chance against this.

just my 2 cents..

[Macd]

Interesting thread...
In my opinion today it is impossible to come into this sport as a "new" team and expect to win in a short to medium term unless you have serious backers.

FORD and CITROEN have such a huge "know how" about building and running competitive rally cars. A new team would need full manu. back up and enough finances for 3 years in the order of 20 million Euro per year to even think about beating these guys.

After that, you need to get your hands on a proper driver, which seems to be a died out species nowadays, thanks to the FORD pay and drive philosophy.

If you want newcomers to even think about coming in, they need to have a chance.

First thing FIA needs to do is standardise parts that FORD and CITROEN spend millions on in development, ie : GEARBOX, DIFFS, ENGINE, TURBO, CPU, BRAKES, SHOCKS.

Then they have to BAN all exotic materials, ie: Titanium, beryllium, Carbon fibre, Magnesium alloys, etc..
These materials cost fortunes.
The richest teams want to use these as much as possible so as to have such a light car that, they actually add weight in specific areas of the car to make the equilibrium right and lower the center of gravity.

I believe the 03 Focus had a rear differential guard which had a weight of 80 kilos (just the metal part to protect it from stones). They needed two guys to remove it at service.
This is an example of how they managed to have 50/50 weight distribution and it is how they can get cars which have such unbelievable handling.

Small past teams like SUZUKI and SKODA had no chance against this.

just my 2 cents..


If everything is standardised then why not just have one car?

If everything is standardised then why not just have one car?

You have a point. The same question is always asked when we speak of this. We are only talking about internal car parts, not visible from outside. So to the naked eye they still look different.

Undoubtedly I agree with you that cars should keep their features distinct. The problem here is that we have 2 teams who are lightyears ahead in terms of technology and development, and it just costs too much for anyone to catch up to them.

FORD and CITROEN know that they have this advantage, and they don't want to lose the millions they have put in the technology for their cars.

So I guess unless something drastic happens, the sport is doomed to remain this little circus where only two teams of cars can fight for podium. :(

[OldF]

Then they have to BAN all exotic materials, ie: Titanium, beryllium, Carbon fibre, Magnesium alloys, etc..
These materials cost fortunes.
The richest teams want to use these as much as possible so as to have such a light car that, they actually add weight in specific areas of the car to make the equilibrium right and lower the center of gravity.

Titanium parts have not been allowed, for most of the parts it was allowed earlier, for many years. I don’t remember what year it was, but it was in NORF when Petter crashed and lost a wheel and it was amazing how thin the wishbone or lower arm (whatever the official name of that suspension part is) was compared what I’ve seen on the WRC cars today.


I believe the 03 Focus had a rear differential guard which had a weight of 80 kilos (just the metal part to protect it from stones). They needed two guys to remove it at service.
This is an example of how they managed to have 50/50 weight distribution and it is how they can get cars which have such unbelievable handling.

With the Fiesta S2000 this is made possible with under floor protections. The Fiesta’s weight is little below the allowed 1200 kg without the under floor protections and the difference between the weight distribution between the front and rear axels are only 2,7% which means about 30 kg. With the driver, co-driver and the under floor protections, they can have a perfect balance between the front and rear. Depending on the weight of the under floor protections, the balance can be transformed either to the front or rear.


First thing FIA needs to do is standardise parts that FORD and CITROEN spend millions on in development, ie : GEARBOX, DIFFS, ENGINE, TURBO, CPU, BRAKES, SHOCKS.

Not only for Ford and Citroen but also for all. As I said in another thread, I think the engine rules will be quite simple and moving parts in the engine will be “standardized”. I agree with you that some kind of standardisation for parts like gearbox, diffs, brakes and dampers should be made like in S2000. There should be 2-3 manufacturers to choose from, or how many as ever, if they’ve sell the parts for a certain max price and these parts should be available for everyone.

[rv65]

http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/quesnel_fears_new_car_delays/

Quesnel is worried that a delay could cause them to miss Rally Sweden. Malcolm Wilson says that he is used to tight schedules. Citroen likes to take their time in developing a car, but this could cause them to mess up. It would be interesting to see Ford being the only make during Rally Sweden.

[Sulland]

With Citroen delayed:

So how many new cars will we see in Sweden in 13 Feb 2011 ?

Will we see more than manufacturers in Sweden, and how many will we see at the final in GB in November ?

How many 2011 WRCars will we see in total in GB ?

[MJW]

Hope the FIA dont fall for this trick by Citroen to get the extension for the current cars. Anyone remember that in 2010 we were due to have S2000 with a bodykit, including a Fiat, Proton and VW Sciricco joining wrc. The current two have managed to keep newcomers away quite succesfully.

[COD]

Read Martin Holmes article in GPWEEK! Have to agree with his view that Ford and Citroen have rejected proposals to reduce development costs and attract new entries. Quesnel quoted as saying Citroen dont mind spending as long as they "get value for money" and that the FIA "have lost control of their premier rally championship". Doesnt make appealing reading when a comparison with the IRC and this weekends event in Ypres is made...

It is a great article. Just what I have been saying here for a year now...

[AndyRAC]

There are rumours that Toyota are interested in returning with Prodrive. So what happened to BMW-Mini, VW?? Any series with them 2 manufacturers is stronger. So why have they been put off?

[MJW]

There are rumours that Toyota are interested in returning with Prodrive. So what happened to BMW-Mini, VW?? Any series with them 2 manufacturers is stronger. So why have they been put off?
Saw something on some website yesterday that VW unconvinced by the current TV package for WRC, article goes on to compare Eurosports coverage of Dakar, (VW's current motorsport activity). Only downside from VW's point of view with Dakar was the rally last 3 weeks and then nothing to keep their name up there.

[grugsticles]

I agree mostly on the standardisation of parts.
Even if complete standardisation only lasts for a season or 2 and then is amended later to suit, at least that would encourage manufactures and teams to contemplate entering the WRC.

Personally I think the best idea is to actually only allow parts that are available 'off the shelf' as opposed to self manufactured or modified components.
This could be fine for things like brake rotors, ECU, struts and other suspension components, but things like turbo, diffs and gearbox are something that need to be selected to work best with the car they are used with.

As far as gearboxes go ill use a Subaru as an example.
You can buy a 6 Speed box from a STi for AU$15,000 new from Subaru (retail). Hugely over priced for what it is, but its a strong H pattern box in stock form and comes with a Helical front differential and an active centre differential.
You can buy a kit that you bolt on which converts the box to a sequential shift. This costs about AU$2500 from memory.
Then you can change the gears to stronger straight cut ones and switch to dog engagement. This is about the AU$10,000 mark.
End result is a sequential 6 speed box thats tough as nails (proven to handle 350kw atw easily), will shift as quick as you can move your hands and costs less than AU$30,000 even after you add a front clutch pack differential (~AU$1500) and its far less expensive than a current WRC Subaru gearbox costs.

Apply the same ideas and practices to other manufacture components and if your smart the WRC can maintain the same basic idea of what components are used now in current WRCars but will be a little slower.

If it were my decision, that is how thigns would run.
the public wouldnt know the difference between an 2010 car and a new car and the teams would save a packet of cash.

Im absolutely SERIOUS when I say I, just your regular backyard car enthusiast, could build a car that would be close if not out perform a current WRCar on a budget of about AU$250,000.

[OldF]

Personally I think the best idea is to actually only allow parts that are available 'off the shelf' as opposed to self manufactured or modified components.

That’s what was trying to say in my earlier post. It will always cheaper with some kind of mass production compared to in house design and built parts. Even if for example the gearbox isn’t built in house, it’s designed and is made for a particular make and that’s what makes the WRC parts expensive.


This could be fine for things like brake rotors, ECU, struts and other suspension components, but things like turbo, diffs and gearbox are something that need to be selected to work best with the car they are used with.

IMO also the turbo and gearbox should be some kind of “off the shelf” parts as in S2000 as it’s defined in the Xtrac brochure.
“The gearbox specification meets all of the requirements of the FIA S2000 homologation regulations and has been approved for use in S2000 championships by the FIA.”

http://www.xtrac.com/pdfs/532%20SUPER%202000%20RALLY%20REAR%20GEARBOX.pdf

Even in WRC there are maximum dimensions for the turbo’s impeller and turbine wheels with no variable pitch and geometry and any turning or coating parts made of ceramics.

Parts that of course are specific for a certain make are parts like wishbone / lower arms of the suspension.


As far as gearboxes go ill use a Subaru as an example.
You can buy a 6 Speed box from a STi for AU$15,000 new from Subaru (retail). Hugely over priced for what it is, but its a strong H pattern box in stock form and comes with a Helical front differential and an active centre differential.
You can buy a kit that you bolt on which converts the box to a sequential shift. This costs about AU$2500 from memory.
Then you can change the gears to stronger straight cut ones and switch to dog engagement. This is about the AU$10,000 mark.
End result is a sequential 6 speed box thats tough as nails (proven to handle 350kw atw easily), will shift as quick as you can move your hands and costs less than AU$30,000 even after you add a front clutch pack differential (~AU$1500) and its far less expensive than a current WRC Subaru gearbox costs.

AU$30,000 = 21183.00 €, not a bad price for sequential gearbox.

Well, I suppose that if you have intimate knowledge and can handle with expertise the following domains:

electronics, engineering, aerodynamics, thermodynamics, hydrodynamics, mechanics, carbon fibre work, car mass transfer dynamics, welding, machining, designing, applied mathematics, materials and their resistance to stress, heat and vibrations, computers and autocad, etc..

access to supply of raw exotic materials such as titanium, berrylium, magnesium alloys, carbon fibre for machining ultra light weight parts.
access to the machines required to fabricate those parts.
access to a wind tunnel

Then, maybe, you can be serious about building something that will get within viewing distance of the dust lifted by the likes of FORD and CITROEN.

Todays WRC cars are as close as it gets to FORMULA ONE on gravel. They are on another planet as far as building rally car goes.
And remember that whatever you build HAS to be homologuated by FIA.

FORD and CITROEN have spent millions in pushing the boundaries to squeeze every little ounce of performance out of their cars.

This is why they will always reject standardisation..