Future of National Series

[Rally Power]

There’s a interesting topic at this forum showing that N4 and S2000 are the main categories in the majority of national championships around the world, but even so FIA has forbid further S2000 homologations, and traditional N4 could be limited to a unique make (after ralliart close down), rousing serious doubts on national series future.

Because FIA hasn’t yet clarified the admission of 1.6tWRC in national championships and we’re only a few months from the beginning of 2011 series, it’s more than time to clarify these issues:

Should national teams be forced to step into 1.6tWRC cars, which are expected to be 40% more expensive than today’s S2000 cars?

What effects will this upgrade have in national championships?

Shouldn’t FIA reconsider the S2000 ban and the review of traditional N4 regulations for national use?

Or, in alternative, create a 4wd affordable category (R4) suitable for national championships?

[Mirek]

In my opinion if 1.6T should stay alive for some time, they must be allowed in national series. It will take time to spread them around and to create secondary market but it will work like it worked with previous WRC before they were banned.

On the other hand I know that some teams are afraid of that as they would have to buy new car right after first of their rivals does so.

[Tomi]

I belive that here the main class will remaine GrN, but those who are seriously trying international carreer will drive 1.6T 1-2 years before they start entering WRC events, that recepie has worked good sofar, so no need to change it.

[Mirek]

I don't agree. In my opinion ban for WRC in national series is the main reason for their sad fate after 2004 when it was applied.

[Tomi]

]I don't agree. In my opinion ban for WRC in national series is the main reason for their sad fate after 2004 when it was applied.

what do you mean, what sad fate?

[Mirek]

You didn't notice that since then the number of WRC cars in WRC championship is going stadily down and that we ended with 2 factory teams from 6 or so?

Think just logically, is it more expensive for team to built 3-4 cars per year for their WRT which they can't sell further or to built 20 cars and 16 of them sell to privateers for cash and provide service and spare parts? In early 2000' there were some 5x more WRC cars built per year.

It's quite simple math when You take development cost and devide it by number of built cars to get what the real cost of one car for factory team is.

[NaBUru38]

I've heard that South American rally organizers are dropping all Group A classes and using N1 to N4 (old-school, current and last-gen Impreza vs Lancer, not Super 2000).

[Tomi]

]You didn't notice that since then the number of WRC cars in WRC championship is going stadily down and that we ended with 2 factory teams from 6 or so?

Think just logically, is it more expensive for team to built 3-4 cars per year for their WRT which they can't sell further or to built 20 cars and 16 of them sell to privateers for cash and provide service and spare parts? In early 2000' there were some 5x more WRC cars built per year.

It's quite simple math when You take development cost and devide it by number of built cars to get what the real cost of one car for factory team is.

ah, i tought you was talking about national series.

[Mirek]

WRC and national series are not different worlds. They need to coesist as one depends on the other. We can't talk about one and doesn't think about the other in the same time.

I understand Your point. Gr.N formula makes national series for sure much more competitive but on the other hand it significantly weakens WRC as it makes it elite different space.

And there is also the point of publicity. In Finland it's not that bad as Gr.N cars are still atractive on Your stages but on tarmac they are mostly boring as hell. We had crowds of people everywhere around stages and after 2005 there was almost noone because there were 30 same Lancers from which two or three were worth watching. The situation started getting better only later with more and better S2000 cars but it's still far from WRC era (except barum Rally which is different case).

[Tomi]

]WRC and national series are not different worlds. They need to coesist as one depends on the other. We can't talk about one and doesn't think about the other in the same time.

I understand Your point. Gr.N formula makes national series for sure much more competitive but on the other hand it significantly weakens WRC as it makes it elite different space.

No, what i mean is there is no point to drive WRC cars in national series, if and when the car types changes, the cars prepaire the drivers for nothing.

[OldF]

Should national teams be forced to step into 1.6tWRC cars, which are expected to be 40% more expensive than today’s S2000 cars?

If the direct injection will increase the price by 40%, how much will the price increase with the hydraulic gearbox? Lets hope at least it’s going to be the same format as in S2000. Three manufacturers make the gearboxes and the teams choose which on to use. No more for a team purpose made gearboxes. One issue that will affect the price of the hydraulic gearbox, is an active centre differential allowed or not.

What cars are used in national championships depends on the decision of the national ASN.


Shouldn’t FIA reconsider the S2000 ban and the review of traditional N4 regulations for national use?

N4 and S2000 as they’re now are IMO OK. If there will be more freedom in the technical regulations for N4, the prices will increase again.

[rv65]

The FIA proposed to have a paddle shift gearbox made by 1 or even 2 vendors.

[Rally Power]

]You didn't notice that since then the number of WRC cars in WRC championship is going stadily down and that we ended with 2 factory teams from 6 or so?

Think just logically, is it more expensive for team to built 3-4 cars per year for their WRT which they can't sell further or to built 20 cars and 16 of them sell to privateers for cash and provide service and spare parts? In early 2000' there were some 5x more WRC cars built per year.


I understand your point Mirek, but selling WRC cars was always more important to private structures like Prodrive or MSport than to manufactures rally departments, like the ones of Citroën, Peugeot, Mitsubishi, etc, because for these providing 2nd hand cars was a residual budget fraction.

More than development costs, the “death” of WRC cars it’s linked with the inflated level of technology involved, that arouse a degree of expertise accessible to very few.

[Rally Power]

]WRC and national series are not different worlds. They need to coesist as one depends on the other. We can't talk about one and doesn't think about the other in the same time.


Knowing how easily world rally manufacturers involves in “armour races”, forgetting costs and costumers accessibility, it really makes sense to split world and national rally cars, in order to provide top national teams affordable and competitive machinery.

1.6tWRC cars will be great for WRC use, but other 4wd category will be urgently needed for national series, otherwise will live a Gr.B look like scenario, with only one or two competitors fighting for national champs titles.

[Mirek]

In my opinion if WRC stays completely separated, nothing will change. We will continue with 2-3 manufacturers, maybe sometimes 4 for one year experiment.

Only Citroën can afford to run WRC with no sales to privateers now. Others need that.