Canadian Grand Prix

[Retro Formula 1]

I think this is really the Litmus test for Schumacher.

He has had more than enough time to bed down in the team and get up to maximum speed in the car. He loves this track, he's the most sucessful F1 driver, has the 3rd best car coming into the weekend and if it rains, he thinks a podium is on the cards.

This really is the weekend that he must comprehensively beat Nico and step up to the mark.

If he does it, he will have a good race but if Nico is close to him or in front, he'll probably put it in the wall. He does have a bit of a glass chin when pressured.

Well, he was outclassed yet again in qualifying and the race. I am sure there will be lots of excuses but it's starting to get embarrassing like some punch drunk old fighter still doing the rounds.

He has had a great career and achieved more than anyone else. Why tarnish his achievements with this display :(

[wedge]

Agreed, Anyone who was part of that sell-out crowd in Montreal today will have got great value for money, top class entertainment.

Formula 1, boring? pah

I need to find a the 2010 Bahrain GP thread :D

I couldn't think we could top Turkey but quite possibly the Canadian GP is the best race I've ever seen - in the dry I must add! No silly gimmicks apart from overnight rain over the weekend which meant I could not pick a winner halfway into the race. Any number of drivers could have won it.

Too bad Valencia is next.

[Marbles]

On behalf of Canada to Formula One, Bernie Ecclestone and all F1 fans:

You're welcome.

Now I know who Schumacher reminds of now that he isn't driving in the best or second best engineered equipment on the planet:

Andrea De Cesaris!

Imagine if Andrea got a chance to drive for the same quality teams that Schumi drove for.

Awesome race! More wheel to wheel stuff in this race alone than I've seen in entire seasons of Formula One.

[Tazio]

On behalf of Canada to Formula One, Bernie Ecclestone and all F1 fans:

You're welcome.

Now I know who Schumacher reminds of now that he isn't driving in the best or second best engineered equipment on the planet:

Andrea De Cesaris!

Imagine if Andrea got a chance to drive for the same quality teams that Schumi drove for.

Awesome race! More wheel to wheel stuff in this race alone than I've seen in entire seasons of Formula One. :up:
Easily the best race of the season!

[Triumph]

Excellent race and excellent result.

Well done Lewis and Jenson! :-)

[jens]

Well, what can be said! A truly brilliant, fantastic, awesome and spectacular race!!! :D One of the few races, which had action consistently right from the start to the end. The keyword here is the tyres. Why doesn't Bridgestone bring such tyres to every circuit and we would have exciting racing everywhere!

In some ways the race reminded me the old days, something from 20+ years ago. One aspect was tyre degradation, another is traffic. Nowadays it seems something new to see passes with the help of backmarkers, but once it was quite a standard occurence. Hungary '89 being one of the first examples to spring into mind. :p :

[wedge]

On behalf of Canada to Formula One, Bernie Ecclestone and all F1 fans:

You're welcome.

Now I know who Schumacher reminds of now that he isn't driving in the best or second best engineered equipment on the planet:

Andrea De Cesaris!

Imagine if Andrea got a chance to drive for the same quality teams that Schumi drove for.

Awesome race! More wheel to wheel stuff in this race alone than I've seen in entire seasons of Formula One.

Andrea was far far worse. He had little respect for others regardless of his position in the race. He would be a lap down and hold the lead lap cars on purpose out of spite and personal enjoyment.

[wedge]

Well, what can be said! A truly brilliant, fantastic, awesome and spectacular race!!! :D One of the few races, which had action consistently right from the start to the end. The keyword here is the tyres. Why doesn't Bridgestone bring such tyres to every circuit and we would have exciting racing everywhere!

In some ways the race reminded me the old days, something from 20+ years ago. One aspect was tyre degradation, another is traffic. Nowadays it seems something new to see passes with the help of backmarkers, but once it was quite a standard occurence. Hungary '89 being one of the first examples to spring into mind. :p :

Well in the old days you had tyre wars that could produce funny grids but yesterday the grid was set on merit and we still had a brilliant race.

It was as if we had an hour of practice instead of the usual 4 before quali/race.

Remember last year's Australian GP. Some people thought the bad tyres were a silly gimmick.

I think there were a number of factors. Green race track, low grip surface, Friday practice where teams looked clueless. These factors can work against you because it can produce less overtaking eg. hard to think now but the revamped Interlagos was notoriously difficult to overtake in its first few years.

I think the most important thing is that unlike years gone by and even in 2008 with no tyre war we had few marbles built up outside the racing line and the track held up very well and none of the race track tearing up during the weekend.

[Mia 01]

At the end of the race Lewis tires was very bad, Jensons was good, but the team probably asked him to back off this time.

[I am evil Homer]

Really? So when Button was catching him with 10 to go and Lewis then set 2 very quick laps that was due to Button backing off? I think you need to re-think what that actually means.

Lewis showed Jenson he had no chance of taking the win.

[Tazio]

Lost in all the hub-bub is this was the first all champion podium since
Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, and Nélson Piquet in 1991 in the first round at Phoenix!

[AndyL]

I also would like to know what gave you the impression Jenson's tyres were good? 40+ laps, and when both Mclarens were pushed up the pit lane next to the commentary crew it was remarked that Hamilton's tyres were heavily worn but in good shape considering the length of time they had been used. It was also said that Button's tyres were in a similar shape to Hamilton's. Its the first time the BBC have credited Lewis for being sensible with his tyres and complimenting this aspect of his race craft. He adopted a good strategy yesterday and spend a long stint caring for his tyres and also put in a fast lap when told Jenson had set the fastest lap previously. Jenson would have heard Lewis's time and known with 8 laps to go that it was best to stay where he was, and the chance of getting on the back of his gearbox was slim anyway. I am aware Button did a couple of laps more on his tyres than Lewis, but with a track like Canada which is notoriously hard on tyres, I think both Mclaren's did a great job.

I do remember seeing a super-slomo that appeared to show Button's tyres in visibly better conditions than Hamilton's... that was probably 10-20 laps from the end though (can't remember exactly when), before Button had chased and passed Alonso. As mentioned by evil Homer it was pretty clear that Hamilton had, if anything, more tyre left than Button when he put those couple of quick laps in near the end.

[AndyL]

Lost in all the hub-bub is this was the first all champion podium since
Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, and Nélson Piquet in 1991 in the first round at Phoenix!

Excellent trivia!

[I am evil Homer]

I do get the impression Mia you are either extremely new to watching F1, or the commentary on whatever channel you watch races on is hideously misleading. I would recommend subscribing to the BBC feed, which is at times annoying with Legard, but would clear up some of the assumptions you seem to make on here.. :)

I sense he really just dislikes Hamilton...though it's hard to tell as i've put him on ignore now.

[i_max2k2]

One of the best dry races in the past couple seasons, or as far as I can remember, Hamilton did really well, I think he paced himself perfectly, RB's were poor on strategy with Webber. Good driving by Alonso as well, luizzi had poor luck, Schumi had a frustrating race after his first pitstop, I really don't think his tangle with Kubica was his mistake, and that cost him his race, although with Massa it seemed he did not anticipate Mass going on his outside, and trying to get back to the racing line messed it up.
This season is definitely turnin out to be as exciting as was expected, but This race is also the turnin point for RBR they seemed to be losing their advantage, this car is probably Webbers best chance to score a WDC, he must have some strong finishes in the next few races to keep the momentum going.

[UltimateDanGTR]

random facts after the candian grand prix:

we have our 5th different championship leader of the season. alonso, massa, button, webber and now hamilton have all had the honour now. (sign of the times-epic epic F1)

we saw a podium of 3 world champs for the first time since pheonix '91.

after massa's epic race (that was great fun to watch) ending with him scoring nil points, webber is the only driver this season to have scored in every race.

and some more for you:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/06/14/hamilton-is-fifth-different-championship-leader-canadian-gp-stats-and-facts/

Now, what did we establish as the record number of championship lead changes in a season in that thread a while back? I wouldnt be surprised to see a new record when 2010 is over.

[Saint Devote]

I also would like to know what gave you the impression Jenson's tyres were good? 40+ laps, and when both Mclarens were pushed up the pit lane next to the commentary crew it was remarked that Hamilton's tyres were heavily worn but in good shape considering the length of time they had been used. It was also said that Button's tyres were in a similar shape to Hamilton's. Its the first time the BBC have credited Lewis for being sensible with his tyres and complimenting this aspect of his race craft. He adopted a good strategy yesterday and spend a long stint caring for his tyres and also put in a fast lap when told Jenson had set the fastest lap previously. Jenson would have heard Lewis's time and known with 8 laps to go that it was best to stay where he was, and the chance of getting on the back of his gearbox was slim anyway. I am aware Button did a couple of laps more on his tyres than Lewis, but with a track like Canada which is notoriously hard on tyres, I think both Mclaren's did a great job.

I do get the impression Mia you are either extremely new to watching F1, or the commentary on whatever channel you watch races on is hideously misleading. I would recommend subscribing to the BBC feed, which is at times annoying with Legard, but would clear up some of the assumptions you seem to make on here.. :)

Jenson worked his tyres extremely hard going after and beating Alonso, after conserving them and beating Vettel.

Jenson said that he was trying to catch but could not get closer to Hamilton than 2 seconds behind with his tyres.

It makes a change for Mclaren to have two winning drivers that are sensible where the team is concerned compared to what recent history has been.

It was an excellent drive by Jenson.

If the championship is to be decided between the Woking drivers it appears it will literally turn on a couple of points - qualifying could turn out to be critical in this intra-team struggle.

What a superb job Martin Whitmarsh is doing and he has to be so pleased with his first signing as the Mclaren principle - Jenson.

[truefan72]

One of the best dry races in the past couple seasons, or as far as I can remember, Hamilton did really well, I think he paced himself perfectly, RB's were poor on strategy with Webber. Good driving by Alonso as well, luizzi had poor luck, Schumi had a frustrating race after his first pitstop, I really don't think his tangle with Kubica was his mistake, and that cost him his race, although with Massa it seemed he did not anticipate Mass going on his outside, and trying to get back to the racing line messed it up.
This season is definitely turnin out to be as exciting as was expected, but This race is also the turnin point for RBR they seemed to be losing their advantage, this car is probably Webbers best chance to score a WDC, he must have some strong finishes in the next few races to keep the momentum going.

to me it comes down to the management and Horner. The 2 drivers are winning in-spite of his complete ineptitude. TBH the rBR is probably still the best car on the gird and how they manage to go from 2/3 with the preferred tyres to finishing 4/5 is down to poor strategy. Even though Hamilton had the pole, it was essentially setup right for them

That phantom gearbox change on Webber is also dubious in my book.

[Ranger]

That phantom gearbox change on Webber is also dubious in my book.

Nope, Vettel also had a gearbox problem through the race, so its just a simple reliability problem.

In that regard Red Bull can be fortunate that both cars made it to the end.

[i_max2k2]

to me it comes down to the management and Horner. The 2 drivers are winning in-spite of his complete ineptitude. TBH the rBR is probably still the best car on the gird and how they manage to go from 2/3 with the preferred tyres to finishing 4/5 is down to poor strategy. Even though Hamilton had the pole, it was essentially setup right for them

That phantom gearbox change on Webber is also dubious in my book.

I do agree, RBR messed up their strategy and that hamilton's pole was more cause of the car's setup, but yeah when I heard about webbers gearbox issue, it almost sounded like they somehow want webber to lose the wdc lead to vettel, and they'll do anything for it. I really want webber to go for the WDC!

[Saint Devote]

The biggest weakness at Red Racing are their strategy calls.

Just look back at this season and listening to their radio transmissions to the drivers is evidence of that.

[Saint Devote]

Indeed, there were circumstances as to why Jenson's tyres were so worn, but it also demonstrated that Lewis is capable of adapting his style to conserve his tyres over a long distance. It seems to have turned into an old cliché where fans assume Lewis is aggressive with the car and Jenson is an early breaker and vastly smoother. Obviously its not quite as simple as that. There was a good article on Autosport yeserday which discussed this very topic.

Not simple, but in Turkey Jenson had more fuel left. The difference is that being easy on machinery and conserving the car comes naturally to Jenson.

[ShiftingGears]

Not simple, but in Turkey Jenson had more fuel left. The difference is that being easy on machinery and conserving the car comes naturally to Jenson.

That is because Hamilton was battling against the dirty wake the whole time, while Button was not.

It's the same as Button destroying his tyres when trying to get past Schumacher in Spain, while Hamilton did not.

[wedge]

TBH the rBR is probably still the best car on the gird and how they manage to go from 2/3 with the preferred tyres to finishing 4/5 is down to poor strategy. Even though Hamilton had the pole, it was essentially setup right for them


There were a number or factors.

Vettel had a problem with his car mid race but the main problem was tyres. RBRs were struggling to make the tyres go a long way.

It was a great unknown because of the track conditions.

On paper you'd think RBR should win it easily but it was not that simple.

Alonso and Hamilton made gains from pitting early because they were doing 1m20s whereas RBR in the 1m21s. So by then it was damage limitation, just how do you cover your bases? I think it was entirely correct to split the strategy between Webbo and Seb.

No one knew if the strategies would work out. Even with 10 laps to go it was touch and go whether Hamilton would last the distance.


Indeed, there were circumstances as to why Jenson's tyres were so worn, but it also demonstrated that Lewis is capable of adapting his style to conserve his tyres over a long distance. It seems to have turned into an old cliché where fans assume Lewis is aggressive with the car and Jenson is an early breaker and vastly smoother. Obviously its not quite as simple as that. There was a good article on Autosport yeserday which discussed this very topic.

Yep, I was very impressed. Very Senna/Schumi-esque. There was enough tyres at the end to pull out his middle out his middle finger to his podium peers!

Same old Bunsen. Too smooth for my liking. Needs to pull his finger out over a single lap Q3 in particular.

[Saint Devote]

That is because Hamilton was battling against the dirty wake the whole time, while Button was not.

It's the same as Button destroying his tyres when trying to get past Schumacher in Spain, while Hamilton did not.

It was a deliberate decision by Jenson to drive that way in order to have fuel at the end and not an incidental result.

Pity the race was not one lap longer!

[Saint Devote]

Same old Bunsen. Too smooth for my liking. Needs to pull his finger out over a single lap Q3 in particular.

Jenson did his best and he finished second after starting fourth. Montreal was an excellent performance by him.

[wacamo]

Jenson did his best and he finished second after starting fourth. Montreal was an excellent performance by him.
The race telemetry clearly shows Hamiltons and Alonso's laptime heading up and Buttons generally downwards. Another couple of laps and we would have had another chance to see team driver etiquette. If you're interested in sets of cool charts for about the last 15 race/quali/practice, check out a free strategy F1 game with live telemetry... http://themajordomo.com

http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae67/themajordomo/Montreal-2010/Mtl-last-laps.jpg

[Saint Devote]

I really cannot but think that the people attacking Schumi in the media today, which includes Eddie Jordan, Coulthard and Brundle are doing so with an axe to grind.

This is NOT 2006 and backwards. This is the era of control tyres, no testing, engines that have no torque band and must comply to a standard that enforces a reliability requirement and so on.

The cristicism being levelled at Schumi is quite usual. There is a residual dislike of the German driver and resentment that powers all criticism.

Canada actually started out as a very good race for him. He made up FIVE places at the start then by lap 12 was up to third. After his first pitstop he was in 7th and looked set to drive a good race.

Unfortunately he had the contact with Kubica and the puncture and had to stop again the next lap after his first.

This decided his race and given the stupid tyre regulations and that he had to drive more than half the race on one set.........

Those who expect so soon Schumi to win AND in an era of regulated F1 of a type we have never witnessed before, are wrong.

I would have expected more from Coulthard. Brundle does not know what it takes to win a grand prix. Eddie Jordan is perhaps still sore over what happened so many years ago - a grudge perhaps?

[Saint Devote]

The race telemetry clearly shows Hamiltons and Alonso's laptime heading up and Buttons generally downwards. Another couple of laps and we would have had another chance to see team driver etiquette. If you're interested in sets of cool charts for about the last 15 race/quali/practice, check out a free strategy F1 game with live telemetry...

Track position is everything and Jenson moved up solidly from lap 49 from 4th to 2nd.

He tried but could not get less than two seconds behind Hamilton, so within the last 15 laps he was racing to finish the 1 - 2 for Mclaren.

Jenson drove very well.

[wacamo]

I dunno. I was sitting at the hairpin and he continued to muscle his way through every chance he got. And how many times did he head across the grass? 3? And, Nico pummeled him, again.

As for an axe to grind... probably. But you usually don't grind an axe out of pure fantasy.

[Saint Devote]

I dunno. I was sitting at the hairpin and he continued to muscle his way through every chance he got. And how many times did he head across the grass? 3? And, Nico pummeled him, again.

As for an axe to grind... probably. But you usually don't grind an axe out of pure fantasy.

Rosberg pummeled him? - prior to his stop because of a puncture, Schumi had moved UP whilst Rosberg had slid backwards.

After the first stops, Schumi was in 7th and Rosberg in 11th then came Schumi's puncture.

Schumacher is not a miracle worker although people act as if he has some mystical force.

He is a human being that applies himself using logic and reason and the the forces of physics that in a racing car he has a wonderful ability to leverage.

He is dialling himself in, in an era that is not conducive to driver ability. Anyone expecting more than he has already shown is not being rational or reasonable.

[markabilly]

lord I hate agreeing with da devoted

found your soul yet, or has the devil still got it...

[airshifter]

It was a deliberate decision by Jenson to drive that way in order to have fuel at the end and not an incidental result.

Pity the race was not one lap longer!

Pity he didn't use the gas during the race!

Why on earth would you conserve more fuel as to keep the car heavier through the race? Both were told to conserve fuel, and I'm sure the team and telemetry are much more valuable than any driver strategy during the course of a race.

[SGWilko]

Apologies for working for dept of the bleeding obvious, but shoe got the puncture as a result of his gtasstracking and kurb hopping at turn 3, set up in turn two where he deliberately put Kubica on the grass.

He drove like a pensioner in Canada, very poor indeed.

[ArrowsFA1]

The cristicism being levelled at Schumi is quite usual. There is a residual dislike of the German driver and resentment that powers all criticism.
There's some truth in what you say, but not all criticism is powered by "resentment". Much of the criticism over MS's performance in Canada is based simply on his poor performance, and his defensive driving which put two opponents into the grass. It's criticism that would have been levelled at any other driver doing that kind of thing.

Seeing MS, a lap down, fighting to stay in the top 10, and failing is probably more than frustrating for him and rather sad for us to watch. Graham Hill, rather than Niki Lauda, springs to mind.

Graham Hill, twice champion and 5-time Monanco GP winner, continued racing long after he should probably have retired, but he continued because he loved racing. His failure to qualify for the 1975 Monaco GP was a sad sight and triggered his decision to retire.

Niki Lauda walked away from F1 in 1979 on his own terms, and returned to win the title on his own terms, and soon walked away again. He knew when to quit on both occasions.

I hope we see more of a Lauda-type comeback from MS, rather than a Hill decline, but at the moment it's looking more like the latter.

[AndyL]

I really cannot but think that the people attacking Schumi in the media today, which includes Eddie Jordan, Coulthard and Brundle are doing so with an axe to grind.

...

I would have expected more from Coulthard. Brundle does not know what it takes to win a grand prix. Eddie Jordan is perhaps still sore over what happened so many years ago - a grudge perhaps?

I think the phrase "what it takes to win a grand prix" is a significant one here. Schumacher's ruthlessness in the past was, if not liked, then at least accepted as an intrinsic part of winning and being a multiple champion. The same ruthlessness is much harder to accept as an intrinsic part of finishing 11th.

[Retro Formula 1]

Rosberg pummeled him? - prior to his stop because of a puncture, Schumi had moved UP whilst Rosberg had slid backwards.

:rolleyes:

Nico was heavily involved in the start line issues and was seriously baulked by the shunt. He didn't slide back but was taken out of the running by another drivers accident which incidentally Schumacher benefited from.

From there, he fought his way back finish ahead of his team mate in one of his best drives ever.

[wedge]

There's some truth in what you say, but not all criticism is powered by "resentment". Much of the criticism over MS's performance in Canada is based simply on his poor performance, and his defensive driving which put two opponents into the grass. It's criticism that would have been levelled at any other driver doing that kind of thing.

Seeing MS, a lap down, fighting to stay in the top 10, and failing is probably more than frustrating for him and rather sad for us to watch. Graham Hill, rather than Niki Lauda, springs to mind.

Graham Hill, twice champion and 5-time Monanco GP winner, continued racing long after he should probably have retired, but he continued because he loved racing. His failure to qualify for the 1975 Monaco GP was a sad sight and triggered his decision to retire.

Niki Lauda walked away from F1 in 1979 on his own terms, and returned to win the title on his own terms, and soon walked away again. He knew when to quit on both occasions.

I hope we see more of a Lauda-type comeback from MS, rather than a Hill decline, but at the moment it's looking more like the latter.

Schumi's a racer. He still has fire in his belly.

If he's not bothered about his reputation/legacy and still waiting for Sunday then he can't be criticised.

[SGWilko]

Schumi's a racer. He still has fire in his belly.


Trouble is, it is probably excess acid......

[wedge]

Trouble is, it is probably excess acid......

I'd give that accolade to Vettel. I'm currently of the opinion he's more of spoiled brat than a racer. On my scorecard he's 2-1 up on Schumi with dirty racing

[Saint Devote]

Pity he didn't use the gas during the race!

Why on earth would you conserve more fuel as to keep the car heavier through the race? Both were told to conserve fuel, and I'm sure the team and telemetry are much more valuable than any driver strategy during the course of a race.

Simply because he could not get within two seconds of Hamilton - so had the race been a lap longer he would have benefitted.

Now dont be ridiculous and criticize a driver for using less fuel!
I guess Jenson and the team are just not as good as you are at this...... :vader:

[i_max2k2]

Michael started the race well but fighting drivers who had more pace than himself on parts of the track he was never going to come out on top, was rather pointless and put him in the ranks of Di Grassi, and Kobayashi in Canada IMO. He made mistakes you'd expect from a rookie, not a 7 times WDC. Still a drivers performance cannot be judged on one race.


I don't think the criticism thats being thrown at Michael is correct, and I don't think he should have just let people go, of all tangles he was involved in, I felt the one with Massa was his mistake, the rest say with Kubica, it was pretty fair, he was unlucky because he got a puncture on another day, it could have been similar to, what happened in Spain between him and button, all I'm saying is he is a racer, and he can't just let people go, he was trying to defend, and I think most times it was more or less like what most other racing drivers would do.

[Saint Devote]

Schumi did perform poorly in Canada - read back through the messages on this thread.

Schumi is a tough driver that pushes to the maximum and is a product of a period that was probably the toughest in f1 ever.

[airshifter]

Simply because he could not get within two seconds of Hamilton - so had the race been a lap longer he would have benefitted.

Now dont be ridiculous and criticize a driver for using less fuel!
I guess Jenson and the team are just not as good as you are at this...... :vader:

Maybe he couldn't get within two seconds of Lewis because he was conserving fuel. Or are you suggesting that he was in fact driving as hard as he could, yet couldn't catch Lewis?

[Mia 01]

Maybe he couldn't get within two seconds of Lewis because he was conserving fuel. Or are you suggesting that he was in fact driving as hard as he could, yet couldn't catch Lewis?

Jenson was, during the last six or seven laps, much faster than Lewis.

It was teamorders.

[Saint Devote]

Maybe he couldn't get within two seconds of Lewis because he was conserving fuel. Or are you suggesting that he was in fact driving as hard as he could, yet couldn't catch Lewis?

By the time he began chasing Lewis both drivers' tyres had gone off and combined with Lewis being quickest at Montreal bar nobody else, Jenson simply could not get closer to his teammate.

So it was a combination of the tyres AND Lewis' driving really.

[ShiftingGears]

Jenson was, during the last six or seven laps, much faster than Lewis.

It was teamorders.

No. It was perfectly clear that Hamilton was simply faster. Button was closing for a lap or two and then Lewis got wind of it and blew him out of the water. Jenson knew once he put that lap out that he wasn't going to catch Lewis.

[truefan72]

No. It was perfectly clear that Hamilton was simply faster. Button was closing for a lap or two and then Lewis got wind of it and blew him out of the water. Jenson knew once he put that lap out that he wasn't going to catch Lewis.

who should we believe Mia slanted view on things or Button's own words
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/6/10911.html

[wedge]

Jenson was, during the last six or seven laps, much faster than Lewis.

It was teamorders.

Button should've quicker through for the entire race full stop. No point doing it at the end of the race where team orders comes into play.