F1 Idiots

[Roamy]

I watch JPM kick butt in the Mexican Nascar race. This was a brilliant win as he passed his way to the front. exciting as hell. F1 are complete idiots for letting this guy slide away. He is the real deal.

[Tazio]

I watch JPM kick butt in the Mexican Nascar race. This was a brilliant win as he passed his way to the front. exciting as hell. F1 are complete idiots for letting this guy slide away. He is the real deal.
I didn't see the race. Now that he is gone fom f-1 I feel I underapreciated him when he was here! It would be cool if he made an f-1 comeback!
I miss that little monkey!

[Roamy]

believe me he was brilliant today !!!!

[Knocker69]

believe me he was brilliant today !!!!

Yep, sure was right up to the point where he punted Pruett out of the way.

[tintop]

yeah, but the last 7 laps took almost an hour :dozey:

he still won't win consistently in the cup races, because it is all about collusion - none-the-less a good race, even if the collision was a little unnecessary

[klm-607]

Yep, sure was right up to the point where he punted Pruett out of the way.

That just shows he's dedicated to NASCAR's "bumper car" style of racing. Dirty or not, good for him. As I remember Dale Earnhart Sr.(the hillbilly messiah) was damn dirty ALOT over his career. I just hope no more F1 people jump ship... it's embarrasing to me as an F1 fan.

[wmcot]

Yep, sure was right up to the point where he punted Pruett out of the way.

It's not nice to drive through your teammate on the way to a win. I suspect that many drivers will be out to pay him back for the rest of the year.

(Crap, I must be really bored to be watching and talking about NASCAR!!! Hurry up OZ GP!!!!)

p.s. If I start talking about golf, please bar me from this forum!!! :)

[Roamy]

funny you euros - finally get to see some great races and you are bitching.
I watched the incident and it was purely racing. WOW what a great job by JPM. Hell if I were Pruett I would have just pulled over cuz you knew he was coming through. Does anyone remotely think that with 7 laps to go JPM would not get by purett???

[F1boat]

fousto, JPM is a great driver, but I am sure that he has a lot more fun in NASCAR. It's his style of racing - with bumping and very hard passes.

[janneppi]

Besides, F1 cars don't have enough torque to pull JPM off the line, he's better off with flying starts and big blocks. :p :
Good job for winning :up:

[raphael123]

What with JPM, MS and JV all leaving F1 during 06 it was a sad year in a way to lose 3 big characters. I would say Renault should have offered him a drive, or maybe even Red Bull, but at the end of the day he wanted to leave. I think he could have done something good at RedBull if not this year, next year with the new regulations. Still, I wish him luck. F1 is definately duller without someone like JPM around - and as fousto says, it's our loss, and their gain!

[leopard]

Does it mean big blocks for someone-else get the title because of his 3 of 10 McLaren's win in 2005? :)

[Rusty Spanner]

funny you euros - finally get to see some great races and you are bitching.
I watched the incident and it was purely racing. WOW what a great job by JPM. Hell if I were Pruett I would have just pulled over cuz you knew he was coming through. Does anyone remotely think that with 7 laps to go JPM would not get by purett???

It was a great race and showed what a sad loss for F1 Montoya leaving was. He might overstep the line sometimes and get too agressive and careless (although I don't think the Pruett incident was) but he was his own man and exciting to watch. Indianapolis will look more empty than usual this year for the US GP without the Columbian contingent.

PS: Nascar needs to learn how to use local yellows on road courses more. Even though they have them they seem a little too eager to go to a full course caution. Half those incidents in the closing laps could have been dealt with under local yellows. Then chances are half of the remain incidents wouldn't have happened because the field wouldn't keep being bunched up.

[janneppi]

PS: Nascar needs to learn how to use local yellows on road courses more. Even though they have them they seem a little too eager to go to a full course caution. Half those incidents in the closing laps could have been dealt with under local yellows. Then chances are half of the remain incidents wouldn't have happened because the field wouldn't keep being bunched up.
Isn't that almost the main purpose of Nascar yellows, bunch up the field for better show?

[savage86]

well yes but last night a couple of them really didnt need a full course yellow.
Especially the car that spun and then carried on.
If you think of some of the crashes in F1 where the saftey car hasnt come out a car spun on the grass is nothing.

[jens]

The name of the thread is "F1 idiots", but no-one is talking about idiots. :D

[race aficionado]

ahhhhhh . . . . my man fousto :s mokin:

yep, Juan was brilliant, check him out here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_if1mD1_mfc

and yes this is a F1 thread and we risk the chance to be booted out of here shortly - but as a side note, I usually go to the F1 news sites and it is full of JPM news.
f1 stilll is holding on to him - he was theirs only "yesterday" and many F1 eyes are watching his every move.

He rocked yesterday.

and he is a happy racer in NASCAR.

[airshifter]

JPM kicked butt, and the move was dumb only on the part of Pruett. :)

[tintop]

Isn't that almost the main purpose of Nascar yellows, bunch up the field for better show?



And to sell more products that make us Americans even fatter.

Commercial Breaks .......... wooo, get er done.

[Wilderness]

JPM isn't in F1 becasue he cannot manage brain fade. He's got the balls and the tallent, but he falls short on the brains dept.

JPM was exiting to watch until he had his usual rain fade with ten laps to go. He was faster, his tires were fresher but there was no need to force the issue that soon. Had it been the last lap, I would have said "racing deal". With so much time left, that was total brain fade and he was lucky he didn't do more damage to either car. Hell, he wasn't even alongside Pruett.

[revmeister]

He had to make a move sooner or later, the opening was there, but Pruett slammed the door a bit too late. He'll know better next time, cover the line properly or give it up. Served him right.
There was a lot of whining, but Montoya has served notice that he won't be screwed with.
Good on him, now let's get Villeneuve in there too!

[Wilderness]

More like a move worthy of Takuma Sato.

Oh, there's a new twist for an old idea, NA$CAR.

[revmeister]

I watched the event and the replays, Pruett clearly changed his line and cut across and Montoya tagged him in the quarter panel. If he'd chop him then, he would have done it later too.

[BoilerIMS]

I watched the event and the replays, Pruett clearly changed his line and cut across and Montoya tagged him in the quarter panel. If he'd chop him then, he would have done it later too.

Add in that Montoya locked up his brakes trying to stop and it was a poorly timed block by Pruett. Montoya was super-aggressive and could have waited for a clearer opportunity (say he used Pruett's tow the next lap - would have been a lot closer) but Pruett clearly contributed.

[Wilderness]

Of course JPM locked up. Anyone making an ill fated dive bomb "pass" would have locked the tires up.

Watch the clip again. Pruett might have left a little opening (it wasn't wide open), but he never changed his line. SP had the line all along, not JPM. JPM was too far for anyone with brains to imagine they would make a dive bomb attempt; which numb skull JPM did.

[veeten]

I watched the event and the replays, Pruett clearly changed his line and cut across and Montoya tagged him in the quarter panel. If he'd chop him then, he would have done it later too.

speaking of 'chops'... ;)

Hey Michael, that invite is still open... :D :p :

[tinchote]

Wilderness and Boiler :up:

The first thing I noticed is the lock in JPM's car. How can anyone claim that was a clean pass? :confused:

[Eki]

Mexican Nascar? Is it like Alaskan football?

[kalasend]

I'm surprised no one said something yet about a F1 drop-out won in NASCAR in his rookie season, at the very beginning(not sure if it's his first race, but it's early enough anyways)

[PSfan]

I watch JPM kick butt in the Mexican Nascar race. This was a brilliant win as he passed his way to the front. exciting as hell. F1 are complete idiots for letting this guy slide away. He is the real deal.

As already mentioned... I believe Montoya wanted out of F1 after his stays at Williams and Mcleran probably gave him a sour taste. I have little doubt that Ralf was treated a little better at Williams, and then at McLaren, I sensed that Mika and Kimi where treated better then Couldhart and Montoya. I think the only team that would have been a good fit for Montoya would have been RBR, but then they wouldn't be getting Renault engines, Team Torro would be using Cosworths, and Webber would have either stayed at Williams or had to sit out the season... But as stated already, Montoya was already fed up of F1...

And just to do a little ranting (that maybe should have been saved for a different forum...) But man I have lost ALL respect for Pruet after that race. The guy is older then dirt, whole career is based on road racing, this can't be the first time its happened to him, and I'm sure he's gotten his nose dirty too, and he bumps Montoya during the cool down lap, gives him the two thumbs first chance he gets to be seen on tv after the race, and that little rant interview after the race! Gannasi should get rid of the guy asap!

thank you, and back to your regularly scheduled program... :cheese:

[Garry Walker]

funny you euros - finally get to see some great races and you are bitching.
I watched the incident and it was purely racing. WOW what a great job by JPM.

LOL. Whenever Schumi was involved in a little touch of wheels, you used to go crazy over him and call him a cheat, now jpm rams out his own teammate and its great racing. Freaking funny.


As already mentioned... I believe Montoya wanted out of F1 after his stays at Williams and Mcleran probably gave him a sour taste. I have little doubt that Ralf was treated a little better at Williams, and then at McLaren, I sensed that Mika and Kimi where treated better then Couldhart and Montoya.
do you have any proof about ralf and Kimi getting better treatment than JPM? I mean facts, not your subjective opinions trying to cover up for the failed hype that was montoya?

[Hawkmoon]

Forgive my ignorance but what is the difference between the Nextel Cup and the Busch series? I thought JPM was driving in the Nextel Cup?

[Garry Walker]

Forgive my ignorance but what is the difference between the Nextel Cup and the Busch series? I thought JPM was driving in the Nextel Cup?

to my understanding Nextel is to busch as F1 is to gp2. Simply a feeder series, and in the case of Busch series - has a very weak line-up.

[msaxman]

What with JPM, MS and JV all leaving F1 during 06 it was a sad year in a way to lose 3 big characters. I would say Renault should have offered him a drive, or maybe even Red Bull, but at the end of the day he wanted to leave. I think he could have done something good at RedBull if not this year, next year with the new regulations. Still, I wish him luck. F1 is definately duller without someone like JPM around - and as fousto says, it's our loss, and their gain!

i heard he was offered a drive at red bull, and turned it down.

[ioan]

... now let's get Villeneuve in there too!

Better not, by the end of the season every other driver will get accused that they tried to kill him! :p :

[Dave B]

LOL. Whenever Schumi was involved in a little touch of wheels, you used to go crazy over him and call him a cheat, now jpm rams out his own teammate and its great racing. Freaking funny.

You've got to admit, that's a valid point :laugh:

[555-04Q2]

LOL. Whenever Schumi was involved in a little touch of wheels, you used to go crazy over him and call him a cheat, now jpm rams out his own teammate and its great racing. Freaking funny.

Its called double standards and it is common practice on this forum :( Whats good for the goose...

[555-04Q2]

You've got to admit, that's a valid point :laugh:

Fousto will find a reason to justify his views :down:

[PSfan]

LOL. Whenever Schumi was involved in a little touch of wheels, you used to go crazy over him and call him a cheat, now jpm rams out his own teammate and its great racing. Freaking funny.

Funny you should mention that, Montoya at least had the guts to apologize for his mistake, it took ALL of Schumi's fellow drivers to demand one before he would apologize for HIS mistake.


do you have any proof about ralf and Kimi getting better treatment than JPM? I mean facts, not your subjective opinions trying to cover up for the failed hype that was montoya?

While not all teams make the preference towards one driver as obvious as Ferrari did, I'm sure the might be some real proof of this if you dig hard enough (for example how often the spare car was set to a particular driver, etc etc...) But it would be a safe assumption the BMW would have prefered Ralf win instead of Montoya. I also also think it a little more then ironic that Montoya won his final race with William's which was about 3 races after Ralf announced signing with Toyota, which also leads me to believe they wheren't being treated equally up to that point. As for his time at McLeran, lets face it, Kimi is the second coming of Mika. And also I don't think Montoya ever recovered from his motocross tennis match.

And while I'm no Montoya fan, even I can see that his accomplishes in F1 have proven the hype. Also based on some of the sour grapes comments by Ron, and the seat offered at Team Torro by Berger, its also somewhat clear to me that F1 wants Montoya more then Montoya wants F1.

[SGWilko]

Watching the racing highlights on the Speed TV clip via youtube, it is clear that at the particular corner where monty and pruett touch, monty had taken a very similar line as other overtaking manoeuveres. I think pruett has an axe to grind....

[Dave B]

Funny you should mention that, Montoya at least had the guts to apologize for his mistake, it took ALL of Schumi's fellow drivers to demand one before he would apologize for HIS mistake.
So if Schuey had apologised to, say, Damon Hill in '95 that would have been acceptable all of a sudden? If Barrichello received an apology for the team orders then everything would've been ticketty-boo? Don't make me laugh...

[SGWilko]

So if Schuey had apologised to, say, Damon Hill in '95 that would have been acceptable all of a sudden? If Barrichello received an apology for the team orders then everything would've been ticketty-boo? Don't make me laugh...

Still would not have made the blatant ramming acceptable, no, but the apology would have spoken volumes for his character....

[ArrowsFA1]

I think pruett has an axe to grind....
Maybe, but JPM should have waited. It was obvious to anyone watching that JPM was heading for the front anyway. He'd made up around 20 places in 20 laps :eek: and was the fastest out there. Just a little more patience and Ganassi would have had the 1-2.

Ah well, all part of the learning process I guess. JPM must have been reeling from so much overtaking in one race :crazy: :p

As for comparing incidents in NASCAR and F1...chalk and cheese.

[SGWilko]

Maybe, but JPM should have waited.

Hot headed Colombian temperament?

[raphael123]

So if Schuey had apologised to, say, Damon Hill in '95 that would have been acceptable all of a sudden? If Barrichello received an apology for the team orders then everything would've been ticketty-boo? Don't make me laugh...

Dave, with that attitude are you saying 'sorry's' are completely pointless?

I feel saying sorry is a way of saying your apologetic, and admit it was wrong. By not saying sorry, your doing the complete opposite.

[race aficionado]

Maybe, but JPM should have waited. It was obvious to anyone watching that JPM was heading for the front anyway. He'd made up around 20 places in 20 laps :eek: and was the fastest out there. Just a little more patience and Ganassi would have had the 1-2.

Ah well, all part of the learning process I guess. JPM must have been reeling from so much overtaking in one race :crazy: :p

As for comparing incidents in NASCAR and F1...chalk and cheese.

Reading all the Colombian newspaper reports, Juan was not at all happy with the punting. I for one still believe that Pruett should have gotten out of the way right away - and he did mention that he was well aware that Juan was fastest and would eventually pass him. Juan was on a mission and high on adrenaline and Pruett probably wanted to enjoy every minute he had left being leader of a race in a series that he has never won. He should have settled for second and not try to milk the inevitable.

Juan has definitely learned lessons, as he has on every NASCAR race he has been involved in so far. And as for "learning" is concerned, all the other NASCAR racers are also learning that all this Juan hype is for real and as Juan said on his interviews, ovals is where he wants to win and I for one will be watching and waiting for that fun moment where he gets his first oval win.

race
:s mokin:

[Wilderness]

Reading all the Colombian newspaper reports, Juan was not at all happy with the punting.
Yes, I can see the remorse in this picture. (http://www.motorsport.com/photos/nascar-busch/2007/mex/nascarbus-2007-mex-tm-0028.jpg)

[race aficionado]

Yes, I can see the remorse in this picture. (http://www.motorsport.com/photos/nascar-busch/2007/mex/nascarbus-2007-mex-tm-0028.jpg)

nice picture! thanks Wilderness ;)

He should smile, he won a thrilling race.

:s mokin:

[ioan]

I for one still believe that Pruett should have gotten out of the way right away - and he did mention that he was well aware that Juan was fastest and would eventually pass him.

So is NASCAR some sort of racing or rallying?! Racing is about passing not about waiting for the guy in front to let you by because you have a better pace.

[race aficionado]

So is NASCAR some sort of racing or rallying?! Racing is about passing not about waiting for the guy in front to let you by because you have a better pace.

and passing and racing there was.

I don't know if you wached the race ioan but it is a different animal than f1.

They are team mates and Juan, who was now second, had fresher tires and he was the fastest racer out there. I'm sure the team told Pruett that Juan had sliced himself through other 19 drivers in front of him and that Pruett would sure be the next. He could have fought for it by trying to block him (like it happpens if F1 when the guy in the back is faster) but rules should not be broken when trying to avoid being passed.
I don't know if team orders are permitted in NASCAR but I'm sure Pruett was told to avoid the fight so that no one would get hurt and assure the 1-2 with Juan getting his deserved maiden win.

The fact is, juan was not going to be stopped by anyone, including his team mate and as you have noticed there are varied oppinions as to how Juan could have approached the situation and the most popular being that he should wait for a safer place to pass. This I find interesting now that in all the restarts, Juan always passed someone on the same corner where the two team mates colided.

any way . . . . I will be watching F1 and NASCAR.
Let's see if once JV (your fave driver) :p : joines NASCAR, we will have you visiting our NASCAR forum.

:s mokin:

[janneppi]

Looking at the video of the pass, JPM wasn't in a position to own the line, it wasn't a deliberate shunt, but it certainly was his fault. If he had the speed, and he should have waited for a real opening.

[ioan]

Let's see if once JV (your fave driver) :p :

Don't ever say that again! :mad:

[Wilderness]

Looking at the video of the pass, JPM wasn't in a position to own the line, it wasn't a deliberate shunt, but it certainly was his fault. If he had the speed, and he should have waited for a real opening.
I fail to understand why it is so difficult to see it this way. I'm much more of a JPM fan than Scott Pruett (who?) fan, but in this case, there's no way I can defend Monty.

[race aficionado]

I enjoyed this article, but hey! I'm a JPM fan. :D

this article by the way, I read at a F1 news site.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/lars_anderson/03/06/montoya/index.html


:s mokin:

[revmeister]

I enjoyed this article, but hey! I'm a JPM fan.

Thanks for the link, great story! I guess open wheel racers can bring something to Nascar after all.

Come on Jacques, get your deal done, there's fresh meat out there! :)

[race aficionado]

Well, while we can still mention Jack here . . . .

man, it would be great if he joined the NASCAR circuit - and it probably still can happen.

[ArrowsFA1]

I enjoyed this article, but hey! I'm a JPM fan. :D
Thanks for the link RA :s mokin:

As it says
...the thing is, what Montoya did on Sunday is in line historically with how the guy races. He possesses an all-or-nothing style when he gets behind the wheel of a racecar, and that's what makes him so electric on the track...

:up:

[Big Ben]

nobody can accuse him of doing it purposely, just one of those moments when his brain stopped working.
he was far from being able to overtake him at that point.
he can't be compared to MS. SCHU always knew what he was doing.
i don't see it to be such a big achievement... and I don't see how does this relate to f1... i mean... the same maneuver would have meant the end of the race in f1.
didn't he do the same thing at Indianapolis?
Nascar is the best place for him. It covers much better inconsistency and leaves room for more mistakes.

[race aficionado]

. . . . thanks for letting us get away with JPM/NASCAR stories on our F1 site.

but the buzzing all around is so electric and he is a former F1 racer doing good . . . .

any way, we will soon clean out our mess once the partying has ended.

and in the mean time, I'm partying on!!!!

[VresiBerba]

LOL. Whenever Schumi was involved in a little touch of wheels, you used to go crazy over him and call him a cheat, now jpm rams out his own teammate and its great racing. Freaking funny.
What's even more funny is that Shufosis like you thought is was great racing when Shumi did it.


Fousto will find a reason to justify his views :down:
Like you could be sure that Ioan would find any means to justify whatever Shumi did. It's forum 101, don't get so upset everyone :rolleyes:

[rlenis]

I always been a JPM fan and in this case I put the blame on both. On Monty for not waiting and misjudging his opponent and Scott for hard headed. If he said he was gonna let him through he clearly did not show it by cutting down on that corner like that. What he said after the race is pure BS, he wanted that win as much as Monty and he was not going to make it easy for the Colombian in any corner. I am actually glad that Monty took him out because if Monty would have made a clean pass and Pruett was second, it could have been Pruett hampering Montoya's win by pulling a similar move. There are no team orders when the two drivers have the same car and are both in contention for a maiden NASCAR win.

[veeten]

to my understanding Nextel is to busch as F1 is to gp2. Simply a feeder series, and in the case of Busch series - has a very weak line-up.

actually, the major difference is that Nextel Cup regulars (Gordon, Stewart, Earnhart, Jr., etc.) often run in BGN races as well, giving the 'up & coming' drivers something that you don't get in most other racing genre; a chance to go head-to-head with the top drivers.

Not for money, fame, or glory, but for the sheer love of racing. Something that, I believe, Montoya has found again. :)

[janneppi]

I always been a JPM fan and in this case I put the blame on both. On Monty for not waiting and misjudging his opponent and Scott for hard headed. If he said he was gonna let him through he clearly did not show it by cutting down on that corner like that. What he said after the race is pure BS, he wanted that win as much as Monty and he was not going to make it easy for the Colombian in any corner. I am actually glad that Monty took him out because if Monty would have made a clean pass and Pruett was second, it could have been Pruett hampering Montoya's win by pulling a similar move. There are no team orders when the two drivers have the same car and are both in contention for a maiden NASCAR win.
Has Pruett said he was allowing JPM to win?
At least in the bit i saw his words were something like:
"if he was faster than me, ok , will work it out, and he can go, but not take each other out."
Pruett wasn't hard headed, he was first in the corner and took his line, as any driver should.

[ioan]

nobody can accuse him of doing it purposely, just one of those moments when his brain stopped working.
he was far from being able to overtake him at that point.
he can't be compared to MS. SCHU always knew what he was doing.

Well I suppose that fellow racers would prefer to race along MS who knows always what he is doing than along Juan "brain fade" Montoya who has his brain out of order and does stupid things.

[raphael123]

I'm not so sure, with Schumacher there's always the doubt he's going to try and shove you off the tarmac at 200mph, or run his car into yours :P

I liked Mika's quote on Montoya, saying when racing wheel to wheel with Montoya you can't even fit a sheet of paper between yourselfs. So true lol.

We'll definately miss him! Though I think McLaren changed him for the worse, apart from the odd race in a McLaren like Oz 06 etc, he was not the same driver as he had been for Williams.

[rlenis]

Has Pruett said he was allowing JPM to win?
At least in the bit i saw his words were something like:
"if he was faster than me, ok , will work it out, and he can go, but not take each other out."
Pruett wasn't hard headed, he was first in the corner and took his line, as any driver should.

you are right, hard headed was not the word, I think he was not cautious enough to realized that Montoya was coming after everyone including himself and should have done a better job in protecting his corner. From my POV, I think he left the door wide open for JPM to sneak in. If he didn't see him he was careless. Cutting in like that would only mean a wreck for himself because even when Monty hit on the breaks he could not avoid the collision.
You cannot assume anything when you are racing for the lead. (if he was thinking Monty was not gonna attempt an overtaking maneuver)

[janneppi]

You cannot assume anything when you are racing for the lead. (if he was thinking Monty was not gonna attempt an overtaking maneuver)
But you have to assume that the guy behind you doesn't ram into you.
Also JPM should have assumed that Pruett wasn't a going to give way when he was clearly in the lead.
Only thing you can fault Pruett is perhaps a too wide line, everything else was JPM's own fault, he was behind and wen't into a opening he should have known wasn't going to stay open.

[ArrowsFA1]

Well I suppose that fellow racers would prefer to race along MS who knows always what he is doing than along Juan "brain fade" Montoya who has his brain out of order and does stupid things.
He's far from being alone in possessing that ability :p

[Roamy]

you are right, hard headed was not the word, I think he was not cautious enough to realized that Montoya was coming after everyone including himself and should have done a better job in protecting his corner. From my POV, I think he left the door wide open for JPM to sneak in. If he didn't see him he was careless. Cutting in like that would only mean a wreck for himself because even when Monty hit on the breaks he could not avoid the collision.
You cannot assume anything when you are racing for the lead. (if he was thinking Monty was not gonna attempt an overtaking maneuver)

Absolutely correct. Many drivers can't drive out of the fast line. Pruett already admitted the JPM was faster to he had two choices. MTFO or block. Blocking is pretty simple as you move down out of the fast line to block the entry to the corner. With Pruett's post race comments he is obviously concerned with JPM's presence and speed. Again very good job JPM.

[Garry Walker]

Funny you should mention that, Montoya at least had the guts to apologize for his mistake, it took ALL of Schumi's fellow drivers to demand one before he would apologize for HIS mistake.
montoya has always been a driver who has a hard time admitting his mistakes and even this time, I havent seen him apologize. He only said its Terrible what happened, but I havent seen him apologize or admit fault.
Schumacher, when he is guilty, has admitted his mistake - just look at malaysia 2003.





While not all teams make the preference towards one driver as obvious as Ferrari did, I'm sure the might be some real proof of this if you dig hard enough (for example how often the spare car was set to a particular driver, etc etc...)
So why dont you dig deep and look up the info and try to prove Ralf was given more help than jpm?



But it would be a safe assumption the BMW would have prefered Ralf win instead of Montoya. I also also think it a little more then ironic that Montoya won his final race with William's which was about 3 races after Ralf announced signing with Toyota, which also leads me to believe they wheren't being treated equally up to that point.
LMAO. I remember you saying that stuff before, and i educated then already. Do you really want more? I will gladly give it.

1) How was Ralf given preferred treatment? Spare car doesnt count, because very often in the last few years, due to the engine rules, they have very little use for it during the weekend. so that doesnt cut it. You have to come up with something better for your case, its look weak like an old mans bladder at the moment.

Brazil has always been a strong circuit for JPM and in 2004 the BS tyres failed Ferrari, forcing them out of the run for the victory which gave the Michelin guys a chance.

In any case, your belief that BMW was giving preferred treatment to Ralf, in Williams - a team known for treating its drivers EQUALLY - is quite stupid.




As for his time at McLeran, lets face it, Kimi is the second coming of Mika. And also I don't think Montoya ever recovered from his motocross tennis match. Excuses excuses as always. Never montoygas fault, always the fault of someone else. Montoya simply never was good enough, he wasnt "schumi-killer" he was hyped to be, and instead he took the cowards way out when he saw the F1 drivers are too good for him.



And while I'm no Montoya fan, even I can see that his accomplishes in F1 have proven the hype. Also based on some of the sour grapes comments by Ron, and the seat offered at Team Torro by Berger, its also somewhat clear to me that F1 wants Montoya more then Montoya wants F1.

What sore comments? Ron dumped him and was glad to see the back of him, even Kimi said that he was happy to see Montoya gone because he was not nice to work with.

Toro Rosso was the only team offering him a drive, no other team was interested in him at all. FACT - montoya didnt cut it in f1, and no one is missing him at all.

[rlenis]

montoya has always been a driver who has a hard time admitting his mistakes and even this time, I havent seen him apologize. He only said its Terrible what happened, but I havent seen him apologize or admit fault.
Schumacher, when he is guilty, has admitted his mistake - just look at malaysia 2003.





Scott Pruett:
“Sunday’s race brought out a wide range of emotions from me. Although I am still upset that I did not win the race in Mexico City or finish 1-2, I do feel a lot better. I spoke to Juan Pablo and he apologized and I do know that what happened was not intentional on Juan’s part. He and I have worked great together in the past – winning the 24 Hours - and I know we will work together in the future. Racing is an emotional sport and that is part of its beauty. I have been in racing for a long time and sometimes these things happen. I have moved on and now just look forward to getting back to racing.”


Juan Pablo Montoya:
“As I said for the last couple of days, I am very sorry about what happened with Scott and I am really disappointed that we did not finish 1-2. I think that we had the best cars in the field and I know Scott, Brian and the whole 41 team deserved better. I feel bad that the whole situation happened and told Scott that I was sorry about it. I completely understand Scott’s frustration as I would feel the same way. I am now just looking forward to Las Vegas.”

[ArrowsFA1]

FACT - montoya didnt cut it in f1, and no one is missing him at all.
I guess that's because there is no F1 anymore :p :D

[rlenis]

montoya didnt cut it in f1, and no one is missing him at all.

speak for yourself.

[Osella]

actually, the major difference is that Nextel Cup regulars (Gordon, Stewart, Earnhart, Jr., etc.) often run in BGN races as well, giving the 'up & coming' drivers something that you don't get in most other racing genre; a chance to go head-to-head with the top drivers.

Not for money, fame, or glory, but for the sheer love of racing. Something that, I believe, Montoya has found again. :)


Yeah, but it has to be said that in Mexico there were very few full-time Nextel Cup Regulars in the field, Hamlin, Biffle and Edwards(only to gain a few points for the BGN championship) were the only real contenders.

But to say that F1 must regret Montoya leaving is an odd thing to start a thread on, surely F1's biggest regret most therefore be that they didn't sign up Richard Petty or Dale Earnhardt?.. Perhaps they just dont care!
As for Red Bull...they just wanted the name and the new market opening up! Quite rightly Montoya turned them down, the team might want to win, but as long as he sells cans in Mexico, Colombia and Venezuela, they probably wouldn't really be overly fussed as long as if offset his salary...

So yes, the Busch race was a weak field, but it also sucked that after showing Montoya's comeback drive, ESPN then totally ignored Pruett's!! (19th to 5th in the last 3 racing laps!!) And, for the record, it was a dumb move from Montoya (did you see Ganassi/Sabates' faces! :eek: ),. but then again, that's why people like him I guess...you always know he's going to provide a 'talking point'

But if he's enjoying it that's fine, a lot of drivers and fans do! Just don't think that he is going to start winning everything in sight, because he's just not at that level yet in Cup.

[race aficionado]

. . . . Just don't think that he is going to start winning everything in sight, because he's just not at that level yet in Cup.

And Juan is the first one to acknowledge that. His win was on a type of track that he is very familiar with - and in this case with a big heavy racing machine - one that he is learning how to drive in leaps and bounds.

Let's see how long it takes him to win his first oval race - which by the way, the ones I've seen so far look like a crap shoot, a lottery, a crazy - let's see whos can make it first before crashing out or being hit from behind/side type of deal.

That's why enjoyed the Mexican track so much. I still have to get accustomed to the oval type of racin' and I really want to be able to appreciate what so many NASCAR fans already do.

race
:s mokin:

[rlenis]

Do you guys know that Boris Said is a road course expert who teaches Dale Jr. how to run on circuits. He is also a rolex 24 hours/Sebring12 hrs/and Nurburing 24 hours winner. Pruett is another 2 time 24 hours rolex winner and one of the best road course racers in America.
Other then Gordon, Steward and Bobby Gordon I don't see anyone else from cup really challenging Montoya on a cup road course. Must of the Cup drivers are primarily just that cup drivers on ovals.

[kalasend]

Let's face it. F1 people do miss JPM for the excitements he bring. But that doesn't change the fact that JPM couldn't do well in F1.

And speaking of Ron Dennis's sour comments for "losing" JPM...wow, this is new to me. If i'm Ron, I don't know if I would ever miss JPM while having FA and LH driving for me. Even if JPM didn't leave, I would have to make room for FA and LH.

[Roamy]

from what I saw on the road course. Nascar may as well award all the races to Juan and move on!!

[rlenis]

I also have a feeling he will dominate at the Glen on the cup race. I mean he's only got a handful of guys he needs to worry about and the gap between him and Pruett/Said/Hamlin/Edwards was tremendous.

[jens]

Oh dear. When the topic is about Villeneuve or Montoya, it is gonna be a "never-ending topic". It seems that it takes some time for these drivers to settle in our minds as history. :D

[PSfan]

montoya has always been a driver who has a hard time admitting his mistakes and even this time, I havent seen him apologize. He only said its Terrible what happened, but I havent seen him apologize or admit fault.
Schumacher, when he is guilty, has admitted his mistake - just look at malaysia 2003.

Just wondering, Did Schumacher make his heartfilled apology before or after he was found guilty and forced to serve a drive through penalty?


So why dont you dig deep and look up the info and try to prove Ralf was given more help than jpm?

LMAO. I remember you saying that stuff before, and i educated then already. Do you really want more? I will gladly give it.

1) How was Ralf given preferred treatment? Spare car doesnt count, because very often in the last few years, due to the engine rules, they have very little use for it during the weekend. so that doesnt cut it. You have to come up with something better for your case, its look weak like an old mans bladder at the moment.

Brazil has always been a strong circuit for JPM and in 2004 the BS tyres failed Ferrari, forcing them out of the run for the victory which gave the Michelin guys a chance.

In any case, your belief that BMW was giving preferred treatment to Ralf, in Williams - a team known for treating its drivers EQUALLY - is quite stupid.

Shame I don't have the time to see if there are any archives of the old forum or I would make you eat your words regarding educating me on this topic.

However, it didn't take me that long to dig up proof that at least Montoya believed he was being treated as a 2nd driver at Williams:

"Some of his actions were unacceptable," said Head. "He was unhappy at what he saw as playing number two to Ralf."


Excuses excuses as always. Never montoygas fault, always the fault of someone else. Montoya simply never was good enough, he wasnt "schumi-killer" he was hyped to be, and instead he took the cowards way out when he saw the F1 drivers are too good for him.

What sore comments? Ron dumped him and was glad to see the back of him, even Kimi said that he was happy to see Montoya gone because he was not nice to work with.

Evidence that Kimi was probably gonna get prefered treatment:

"I don't think he will fit in at McLaren," said Head. "It will be interesting. McLaren is not shy in saying how much they regard Kimi Raikkonen."

See sometimes Head and I agree...
To steal a quote from the goodbye thread:

Ron Dennis "The accident that hurt his shoulder was very counter-productive," Dennis told reporters at Shanghai. "It took that year out of play and created some tensions, but not any that anyone created other than the circumstances that existed as a result of it."

And evidence that Ron was just a tad Bitter about the defection to NAscar:

"A few races ago we had a conversation that was based on his desire to continue with McLaren, his desire to stay in F1 and we came to a clear understanding that it was immaterial whether his objective was to stay in F1, or whether the team would keep him, or if he went to another team, the best way to achieve that was to have the best results in the latter part of the season, that is how we moved forward."

Dennis suggested that, despite paddock scuttlebutt, Montoya was still in the running for the vacant seat at the Woking-based team in 2007.

"I felt if he was focused on having the best end of season, I thought it would be easier for me to take the decision to keep him in the team, and better for him to get a better offer, so common objective was to get the best out of the season," he explained.

"Obviously that objective somewhat changed when he decided that in 2007 he was going to race in NASCAR so the objectives became different. The appropriate action was for him to cool off and think about his situation until we have a common objective for the remaining races."

It was rather obvious that Ron was a little upset that he could no longer play Montoya off of Kimi with any contract negotiations. ANd while the preference was probably to keep Kimi, he was probably hoping to use Montoya as a back up plan. To suggest a cool off period was needed is plain absurd. In his final year at Williams under the shadow of his deffection to Williams Montoya scored more then double the points that Ralf did.


Toro Rosso was the only team offering him a drive, no other team was interested in him at all. FACT - montoya didnt cut it in f1, and no one is missing him at all.

This kinda reminds me of the recent Ryan Smith deal in the NHL, and that alot of teams didn't realise he was an option until it was to late. And I'm also sure alot of other teams that already had obligations would have also loved to have him, Honda being one of them based on Fry's recent comments.

[Roamy]

ha ha what a shame. Now Montoya is proving his greatness. He ran with the drivers with straight up equipment and beat them like a drum at a Who concert!!
Now he will never come back !!

[W8&C]

ha ha what a shame. Now Montoya is proving his greatness. He ran with the drivers with straight up equipment and beat them like a drum at a Who concert!!
Now he will never come back !!hahaha, I guess, the teambosses are highly aware that running a F1 car like „a drum at a Who concert“ isn´t the appropriate way to finish a race. Don´t forget: F1 cars don´t have neither bumpers nor cowcatchers and therefore ain´t suitable for Rambo-like driving styles... :D

[Tazio]

hahaha, I guess, the teambosses are highly aware that running a F1 car like „a drum at a Who concert“ isn´t the appropriate way to finish a race. Don´t forget: F1 cars don´t have neither bumpers nor cowcatchers and therefore ain´t suitable for Rambo-like driving styles... :D
Evidently not all team bosses!
Sato still has a seat!

[race aficionado]

I like the fact that you can bump and grind and not fall apart in a shower of carbon fibre. I like it when I see them using a sledge hammer to straighten the bumper up. If the wheels can move and the engine is still running, send it back to the track.

[ioan]

ha ha what a shame. Now Montoya is proving his greatness. He ran with the drivers with straight up equipment and beat them like a drum at a Who concert!!
Now he will never come back !!

You must be kidding yourself fousto, he's proving his greatness in NASCAR (what a great racing series :D ), and not even in the Nextel Cup for that matter. ;)

[raphael123]

montoya has always been a driver who has a hard time admitting his mistakes and even this time, I havent seen him apologize. He only said its Terrible what happened, but I havent seen him apologize or admit fault.
Schumacher, when he is guilty, has admitted his mistake - just look at malaysia 2003.



If Malaysia 03 is the best example you can come up with in that Schumacher admits to his mistakes when guilty it doesn't prove much. Yes JPM isn't the greatest for admitting to his mistakes, but to say 'Schumacher is though' is ridiculous. What about Adelaide 94, Jerez 97, Argentina 98, Canada 98, Monaco 06, and that's ignoring 7yrs in in the middle!! I'm sorry, but Schumacher and Montoya may be complete opposites, but when it comes to admitting to their mistakes, they are quite similar. The difference then is when Montoya knocks a fellow driver off track, or collides, it's never done with the intention of knocking them out of the race :)



So why dont you dig deep and look up the info and try to prove Ralf was given more help than jpm?


I'm not sure why people think Ralf was given better treatment. I know that in 2004 when Sam Michael took over from Head that JPM felt he would have to move due to the close relationship Sam Michael enjoyed with Ralf Schumacher, who had been working together since 97 when Ralf first came into F1.


LMAO. I remember you saying that stuff before, and i educated then already. Do you really want more? I will gladly give it.

1) How was Ralf given preferred treatment? Spare car doesnt count, because very often in the last few years, due to the engine rules, they have very little use for it during the weekend. so that doesnt cut it. You have to come up with something better for your case, its look weak like an old mans bladder at the moment.


I agree, the only team to use extreme team orders was Ferrari, in assisting Michael Schumacher, like Benettons did in 94 and 95. Hopefully, though we shall miss Michael, it shall result in the end of unfair play.



Brazil has always been a strong circuit for JPM and in 2004 the BS tyres failed Ferrari, forcing them out of the run for the victory which gave the Michelin guys a chance.

In any case, your belief that BMW was giving preferred treatment to Ralf, in Williams - a team known for treating its drivers EQUALLY - is quite stupid.


I agree :)
Only Ferrari have a No1 and No2 system in place - to that extreme anyway. Though not any more since MS has retired


Excuses excuses as always. Never montoygas fault, always the fault of someone else. Montoya simply never was good enough, he wasnt "schumi-killer" he was hyped to be, and instead he took the cowards way out when he saw the F1 drivers are too good for him.


I think JPM was good enough. He didn't reach his full potential, but he showed he was good enough. He got bored of F1 unfortunately, and the move to McLaren, though he got 3 wins in a season where he had to adapt to changing teams, and carried a shoulder injury for the majority of the season, and play second fiddle for the 2nd part of the season, he still managed 3 victories, but he was a shadow of the driver he showed to be at Williams.

I don't think he was a coward, not by any means.
I think it's a shame Schumacher retired, when for the first time ever he was going to be put against another fellow top driver, he choose to retire. Fair enough, it's his choice, he's achieved more than anyone else ever has...however if he completed this year, against Kimi and beat him, with equal treatment, I think there wouldn't be many questions over how great he truly was! It's quite easy to make a case that Schumacher was a coward :(

[Big Ben]

Well I suppose that fellow racers would prefer to race along MS who knows always what he is doing than along Juan "brain fade" Montoya who has his brain out of order and does stupid things.

I agree. They know what MS is capable of espeacially when championships are at stake.
JPM is more unpredictable. Not even outlapped drivers are safe with him. Monteiro knows that very well.

[Wilderness]

... He ran with the drivers with straight up equipment and beat them like a drum at a Who concert!!

Do we know this for sure? Given NA$CAR's track record, I wouldn't put much stock on that. Monty's car looked like it had easily 50 HP over the competition...

[rlenis]

Montoya schooled everyone because he is an expert at road racing. He was the only driver on that circuit who had the breaking experience of an F1 car. If you noticed he passed almost everyone outbreaking them into turns 1, 2, and 3. When the other guys had their foot on their breaks, JPM was still going full throttle. Did you see how he put a gap of 8-10 second to Pruett at every pit stop? and his teammate had the exact same car but with a setup more suited to his driving style. Haw about the Aussie, Ambrosie- He did not have the best car on the field but he someone managed to pass like 20 cars to finish 8th. Road racing driving skills was what made the good drivers stand out on this race, not the car.

[Wilderness]

I hope you're right. I hope Monty is not just "Mr. Right Now" as far as NA$CAR is concerned, and old news when the next flash in the pan comes up.

NA$CAR isn't any better than F1 treating drivers as commodities to suit whatever their needs are at that particular moment.

[Garry Walker]

Just wondering, Did Schumacher make his heartfilled apology before or after he was found guilty and forced to serve a drive through penalty? Yeah, tell me how could he have apologized during the race? What great logic you have.



Shame I don't have the time to see if there are any archives of the old forum or I would make you eat your words regarding educating me on this topic.

However, it didn't take me that long to dig up proof that at least Montoya believed he was being treated as a 2nd driver at Williams:

"Some of his actions were unacceptable," said Head. "He was unhappy at what he saw as playing number two to Ralf."
Indeed, Montoya being paranoid like he is, believed he was playing nr.2, but he wasnt. The only reason he took a hissy at his team was because he tried to outsmart Ralf, but Ralf returned the favour. Williams gave them both as good treatment as possible, as im sure you will agree that BMW preferred winning the most. Have you ever known a team to hold back a faster driver to make the slower one look better? Do you think BMW would prefer to lose with Ralf beating JPM, or win with JPM winning? answer these questions.



Evidence that Kimi was probably gonna get prefered treatment:

"I don't think he will fit in at McLaren," said Head. "It will be interesting. McLaren is not shy in saying how much they regard Kimi Raikkonen."
hahahahaha is that the best you can come up with??? For your info, Montoya was extremely well-supported at McLaren - McLaren designed quite a few different suspensions just because JPM asked for them and did their best to accomodate his wishes and needs. And in return JPM behaved like a prat.



And evidence that Ron was just a tad Bitter about the defection to NAscar:

"A few races ago we had a conversation that was based on his desire to continue with McLaren, his desire to stay in F1 and we came to a clear understanding that it was immaterial whether his objective was to stay in F1, or whether the team would keep him, or if he went to another team, the best way to achieve that was to have the best results in the latter part of the season, that is how we moved forward."

Dennis suggested that, despite paddock scuttlebutt, Montoya was still in the running for the vacant seat at the Woking-based team in 2007.

"I felt if he was focused on having the best end of season, I thought it would be easier for me to take the decision to keep him in the team, and better for him to get a better offer, so common objective was to get the best out of the season," he explained.

"Obviously that objective somewhat changed when he decided that in 2007 he was going to race in NASCAR so the objectives became different. The appropriate action was for him to cool off and think about his situation until we have a common objective for the remaining races."

Im sure Dennis was angry at JPM, people often have that after having been around him for a while. Give ganassi a few years and you will see the same,



It was rather obvious that Ron was a little upset that he could no longer play Montoya off of Kimi with any contract negotiations. ANd while the preference was probably to keep Kimi, he was probably hoping to use Montoya as a back up plan. To suggest a cool off period was needed is plain absurd. In his final year at Williams under the shadow of his deffection to Williams Montoya scored more then double the points that Ralf did.
hahaha. You do realize Ralf missed 7 races because of the heavy crash at indy in 2004? Added to that, he was "lucky" enough to get taken out by JPM once. In races that both drivers finished, Ralf beat JPM 3:2. That is a FACT.


This kinda reminds me of the recent Ryan Smith deal in the NHL, and that alot of teams didn't realise he was an option until it was to late. And I'm also sure alot of other teams that already had obligations would have also loved to have him, Honda being one of them based on Fry's recent comments. Honda has 2 better drivers already, Button and Barrichello. Why would they want a crash-prone over-emotional prat in their team?
Everyone knew Smyth was available btw, the question was about the price.




If Malaysia 03 is the best example you can come up with in that Schumacher admits to his mistakes when guilty it doesn't prove much. Yes JPM isn't the greatest for admitting to his mistakes, but to say 'Schumacher is though' is ridiculous. What about Adelaide 94, Jerez 97, Argentina 98, Canada 98, Monaco 06, and that's ignoring 7yrs in in the middle!! I'm sorry, but Schumacher and Montoya may be complete opposites, but when it comes to admitting to their mistakes, they are quite similar. The difference then is when Montoya knocks a fellow driver off track, or collides, it's never done with the intention of knocking them out of the race :)


MS wasnt to blame at Argentina, adelaide and probably wasnt to blame at monaco either.


I'm not sure why people think Ralf was given better treatment.

They need to make excuses as to why MontoyaTheSchumiKiller never managed to beat Ralf

I think JPM was good enough. He didn't reach his full potential, but he showed he was good enough. He got bored of F1 unfortunately, and the move to McLaren, though he got 3 wins in a season where he had to adapt to changing teams, and carried a shoulder injury for the majority of the season, and play second fiddle for the 2nd part of the season, he still managed 3 victories, but he was a shadow of the driver he showed to be at Williams.

People so often say JPM didnt reach his full potential, but I think he did. But the fact simply remains that he never was as good and talented as his fanboys hyped him up to be. I also think JPM was at least as good of a driver at McLaren as he was at Williams, but Kimi simply was somewhat quicker and more consistant than Ralf and made JPM look stupid and slow.



I don't think he was a coward, not by any means.
I think it's a shame Schumacher retired, when for the first time ever he was going to be put against another fellow top driver, he choose to retire. Fair enough, it's his choice, he's achieved more than anyone else ever has...however if he completed this year, against Kimi and beat him, with equal treatment, I think there wouldn't be many questions over how great he truly was! It's quite easy to make a case that Schumacher was a coward :( Schumacher was the man behind getting Kimi to Ferrari, why would he do that if he was afraid of him? Schumi simply was getting tired of F1, he has worked so incredibly hard for so long, it simply takes a toll on you.

[truefan72]

garry "the hater " walker at it again.

Man give it a rest. How do you survive everyday with such malice in your heart. While most peoples' points are made with some passions but mostly common sense whether they like their particular drivers or not, you seem to thrive on complete disdain for said drivers and others on your hit list. You'll probably celebrate if he got involved in a serious crash.

Your love for your favorite driver is completely blinding you to anything else. Your comments remind me of the Republicans here who seem to beleive their own madness and justify everything that is wrong even when it is completely obvious to the rest of the world.

JPM was/is a great driver , MS was one of the greatest, JPM maybe hot headed, but I would challenge you to tell me who currently in F1 apart from kimi and Alonso is better than him. It's a shame he isn't in F1 this year, but I fully expect him back in perhaps 2 years.

[Roamy]

God truefan don't tell me you are voting for Hillary !! I would rather have Montoya

[donKey jote]

I'd rather have Shakira :dozey:

[Big Ben]

MS wasnt to blame at Argentina, adelaide and probably wasnt to blame at monaco either.

Schumacher was the man behind getting Kimi to Ferrari, why would he do that if he was afraid of him? Schumi simply was getting tired of F1, he has worked so incredibly hard for so long, it simply takes a toll on you.

Yeah... right! I was really enjoying your post but this is too much. I don´t know what happened in Argentina... but he was to blame at adelaide and at monaco and beyond any doubts at Jerez.

Schumacher was behind getting Kimi to Ferrari???? That´s the most ridiculous claim I ve heard so far. Why did he retire then? Why did he postponed so much his decission?

JPM may be a little unstable but he's no cheat. He didn´t took out his team mate just to win... he did it because he´s a moron.

[Mihai]

The fact that JPM won that road course race in NASCAR's second division, the Busch series, doesn't incriminate F1 bosses for getting rid of the Colombian driver. It's just an illogical speculation by the starter of this thread. I think we should look for an idiot elsewhere.

Of course JPM is a very gifted driver, but he wasn't getting anywhere in F1 championship-wise. Now he has the chance to become a legend in NASCAR and this would be more rewarding than a 10 to 12 year career in F1 with a couple of wins per season. I think he has the chance to earn more in NASCAR if he will be successful in the Nextel Cup and he would have to cope with a lot less pressure in the process.

[Wilderness]

I'd rather have Shakira :dozey:
Nah. Sofia Vergara.

[rlenis]

Nah. Sofia Vergara.
For myself I go with Natalia Paris.. Also from Colombia.

[Heidfeldrulez]

. F1 are complete idiots for letting this guy slide away.

i like him and miss him too but it was a 100% his own desicion to leave. If he really wanted to he coulda stay with Mclaren in the first place as he was under contract. Plus he had offers from both Red Bull teams. Even Bernie said in an interview that he thinks JPM will come back (which indicates that he is still welcome in F1 circles) . Simply noone told the guy the leave.

As for the race, you can NOT do that to your team-mate, full stop.

[truefan72]

i like him and miss him too but it was a 100% his own desicion to leave. If he really wanted to he coulda stay with Mclaren in the first place as he was under contract. Plus he had offers from both Red Bull teams. Even Bernie said in an interview that he thinks JPM will come back (which indicates that he is still welcome in F1 circles) . Simply noone told the guy the leave.

As for the race, you can NOT do that to your team-mate, full stop.

As I mentioned in another thread:
...Also about teammates, in both open wheel, Nascar racing and most North American auto series, The term "teammate" is used in the most liberal of ways and assumed the loosest of all affiliations. In Nascar, the only thing making them a teammate is through ownership of the actual vehicle. These teams have separate sponsors, crews, team bosses, setups, strategies, communication and very individual goals. and are most senses of the word independant. Until I see cohesive strategy and "teamwork" I wouldn't put much stock into this being an incident amongst teamates.

[Osella]

As I mentioned in another thread:
...Also about teammates, in both open wheel, Nascar racing and most North American auto series, The term "teammate" is used in the most liberal of ways...the only thing making them a teammate is through ownership of the actual vehicle... I wouldn't put much stock into this being an incident amongst teamates.

Well, there is a lot of hearsay about NASCAR in this thread!! Actually, in NASCAR the teams are often a lot more cohesive than in most of motorsport, especially single seaters!
In fact, all of the current Toyota teams are working together in testing and practices to get as many Camrys on the grid as possible. Last time out in California Jeff Gordon was all at sea, so the team took Jimmie Johnson's setup and stuck it on his car on race morning. For the record, Gordon finished 2nd.

Also, at races with a strong draft (especially plate races), teammates will often work together to pull themselves to the front, how often do we see that voluntarily in F1?!?

I watched the whole BGN race from Mexico, and the incident was certainly a shame as it ruined a great race!
Also, to state that Montoya was the class of the field is not quite correct either, both Ganassi cars were right at the sharp end all weekend (working together perhaps?..) so clearly they had a good handle on setup. Also, immediately up to the point when Montoya made his unscheduled stop, Pruett was the quickest car on the track, by over a second a lap from Montoya!

Also, bear in mind that the aero downforce on a NASCAR is very, very different to the way an F1 car works. The wing angles are far shallower and less efficient, and they also change under pitch far more due to softer springing of the cars. At the point of impact between Montoya and Pruett, both cars would have had zero downforce, and just relying on the tyres.

Anyone who has watched NASCAR regularly could see that as soon as Montoya pulled out, they were going to hit! Pruett took the normal line for the corner, Juan took a tight line, but I think he basically forgot how long it takes to slow a Busch car from 175 MPH, and how ponderous they are on turn-in. Pruett had no choice but to turn exactly when and where he did, he was trying to make the corner! Juan on fresher tyres obviously had better grip, but probably didn't appreciate that Pruett had no choice but to take the line and timing he did (because he's not the world's most thinkingest-to borrow a Simpsons quote-driver!)

As to those who say Pruett should have 'moved the F--- outa the way!', what is this? A Race? Or is it only okay for Montoya to try and win, and not anyone else!?

Also, in the past few seasons, road races (Cup and Busch), have been won by Stewart, Robby Gordon, Jeff Gordon, Dale Jarrett, Denny Hamlin, Kurt Busch, and Scott Pruett, and that's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head!) Throw in Ron Fellows, Boris Said, Marc Goossens and a few other road course 'ringers' and I don't think anyone will be giving Montoya the 185 points from The Glen or Sears Point just yet!!
And don't forget that Boris Said and Marcos Ambrose are also undergoing a very similar learning curve, so sing some praises that way too! :up:

Anyway, rant over ;) And good luck to the guy ('cos he's gonna need it! ;) )
From a long-time F1 fan, and NASCAR follower of over 10 years.

[Easy Drifter]

To me it appears very few posters have watched many NAPCAR races, especially road courses or short tracks like Bristol or Martinsville. Bamming and Framing or trading paint is normal.
Just about every Nextel cup or Busch race on a road course has several accidental on purpose spin outs. Many a race on the bigger ovals has also been won by a little shove in the right place at the right time. It is a standard part of the game. Most of these guys learned it on the way up through the Sat. night bullrings.
How many of the posters on this thread have ever been to a race at a bullring (short track)? I have many times and I have even driven a stocker on a dirt oval many moons ago.
On short tracks a few years ago most late models had no brakes for the first few laps until they warmed up. Then they had brakes for several laps until they faded and back to very little. A friend developed a brake that worked right away and kept working. He gave a set to a driver that had never won a feature race. He won 3 in a row and then everyone used him as a brake. The system was then banned by the "powers that be' at that track.
What Juan did was a little more blatant than normal but it was standard stock car practice. :vader:

[Osella]

Just about every Nextel cup or Busch race on a road course has several accidental on purpose spin outs.

Yeah, but there are some races Kurt Busch isn't in! ;)

[rlenis]

Last time out in California Jeff Gordon was all at sea, so the team took Jimmie Johnson's setup and stuck it on his car on race morning. For the record, Gordon finished 2nd.

If I am not mistaken Jeff Gordon owns Jimmy Johnson's car.




Also, to state that Montoya was the class of the field is not quite correct either, both Ganassi cars were right at the sharp end all weekend (working together perhaps?..) so clearly they had a good handle on setup. Also, immediately up to the point when Montoya made his unscheduled stop, Pruett was the quickest car on the track, by over a second a lap from Montoya!

Is that why Montoya put a comfortable 8-10 seconds gap between himself and Pruett after the first two pit stops?



Also, in the past few seasons, road races (Cup and Busch), have been won by Stewart, Robby Gordon, Jeff Gordon, Dale Jarrett, Denny Hamlin, Kurt Busch, and Scott Pruett,

Pruett has never won a NASCAR race. He was going for his maiden win in Mexico same as Montoya.

[Osella]

If I am not mistaken Jeff Gordon owns Jimmy Johnson's car.

Is that why Montoya put a comfortable 8-10 seconds gap between himself and Pruett after the first two pit stops?


Jeff is indeed the 'owner' of Johnson's car (as NASCAR has rules governing the ownership of cars, intruduced a few years ago to prevent 3/4 car teams, but Jimmie has been supported by Jeff (as his protege) for several seasons. SO yes, it's not a surprise, but it's not as though Jimmie was forced into it! In fact it was Jeff's crew chief who suggested the move, and they then refined the setup through the race. At Daytona this year, Jimmie (again) was concerned he had a slow puncture, so got (teammate) Casey Mears to check his tyres under caution.
If you see much NASCAR you will see teammates working together a lot, and more to the point, treating each other with respect when racing one another.

Yes Montoya pulled out a gap of about 10 seconds on Pruett between stops, but after the unscheduled stop, Pruett was by far the fastest car on track.

And why I said Pruett had won I don't know! I was thinking of Ron Fellows!! :p

[VresiBerba]

Im sure Dennis was angry at JPM, people often have that after having been around him for a while. Give ganassi a few years and you will see the same.
You DO know that Montoya already raced for Ganassi 'a few years' (1999-2000) :rolleyes:

Added to that, he was "lucky" enough to get taken out by JPM once.
Oh really, when was that?

[ioan]

Nah. Sofia Vergara.

One of the rare times I agree with Wilderness on a topic.

[Garry Walker]

You DO know that Montoya already raced for Ganassi 'a few years' (1999-2000) :rolleyes:

Oh really, when was that?

yes i know that.

Nürburgring 2004 where montoya rammed out Ralf at the start. They also had other collisions, typically of Montoya to try to push his way through cars.

[555-04Q2]

but I would challenge you to tell me who currently in F1 apart from kimi and Alonso is better than him.

If that is your feeling then F1 is full of useless prats then. Monty was overrated :down:

[jens]

Internet connection is slow today, but I'm doing my best to post one more post. :p :

You have discussed about JPM so thoroughly that I have to admit that I even haven't indagated into all those post you have written. But people still can't get over him, so I felt somehow that I should say something as well.

Well, I believe Montoya's raw speed is among the very best ones and he can be consistently quick. That is his main strength + ability to make risky manouvers (alas all of them don't pay off). But he has his own minuses. There has been a lot of discussion about his attitude, testing work, strategical thinking, unmotivation in an uncompetitive car (like 2004 and 2006), even physical preparation, which all tend to put him into 'Group B' of drivers, if we make such groups. As I mentioned his unmotivation, then I don't agree with those, who think that for example Toyota should have hired him to get out of the hole - JPM can be competitive and useful for the team only in a good car. Montoya has driven in a top team for the whole of his career - even in CART and F3000. Maybe that has changed him into what he is - he hasn't been used doing exceptionally hard work, when team is in real trouble. He hasn't been in a "backmarker" situation, when and where he doesn't get much attention.

But I think we shouldn't talk too much about "ifs" that what he could do if he was still in F1 or wasn't so arrogant etc, because also 'personality' is after all a part of a racing driver. Alas many seem to think that only "raw speed" is what makes a racing driver and don't bother themselves, what is done outside a Grand Prix race - actually most of the work needed to be successful.