The Future after the 94th Indy 500

[Scotty G.]

What could we see in the future, after the recent running of the Indy 500? Here are a few thoughts and questions to ponder:


1. Why will the next generation of Indy Car likely (in some fashion) have closed wheels? Because of accidents like the Conway one today. Can't afford to have cars launching into the air like that. And it happens way too often with Indy Cars. Have to keep the cars from launching over the tires of another car and out of catch fences/crowd. Indy Car has been very lucky over the years. One day, that luck will run out.

2. Could today's win for Dario mean retirement is near? I think its very likely now. Might have happened even without today's result. But I would guess we have seen Dario's last race at Indy.

3. Could Ganassi be looking at 2 new drivers in 2011? I think its possible. How could it shake out?

-Dario retires
-Dixon goes to deFerren/Dragon
-Chip hires Rahal and Wilson

4. Is Ryan Briscoe in any trouble with The Captain? Briscoe seems way too mistake-prone and has clearly fallen to 3rd on that team. Plus Roger has a former Indy 500 winner down in NASCAR (with no sponsor signed yet for 2011) who may ready for a return to his former #6 car in the Indy Cars. Sam reunited with his old sponsor Pennzoil in Indy Cars?

5. Who could be the hottest free agent for 2011? Simona de Silvestro should be in high demand and a higher level team should come calling. Keep your eye on Panther Racing, and a possible 2nd car there. If Stargate and the rest of her sponsors stay with her, they will no doubt be looking for a move up.

[call_me_andrew]

The Conway crash had me thinking about the future of catch fences without posts in them as Tony George mentioned a few years ago. These cars are so light that they spin when they hit the post, and the spin does the most damage.

Perhaps some sort of flying buttresss system would be ideal.

[NickFalzone]

3. I was going to bring up the same thing. Briscoe's a major talent, but particularly since the incident in Japan last year that cost him the championship, it seems like he's lost his focus. He's back on shaky ground with Penske right now IMO.

4. Simona has seriously impressed me. I agree if she may very well be picked up by a big team next season.

[Scotty G.]

3. I was going to bring up the same thing. Briscoe's a major talent, but particularly since the incident in Japan last year that cost him the championship, it seems like he's lost his focus. He's back on shaky ground with Penske right now IMO.

4. Simona has seriously impressed me. I agree if she may very well be picked up by a big team next season.


-I think The Captain's short and terse response to the Briscoe boner today (which was just on the local TV replay here in Central Indiana) tells me all I need to know about his standing with Team Penske right now. RP was pissed.

Briscoe has done a good job for RP, but he just makes too many unforced mistakes (especially now at Indy; where it matters most to RP) for a team of that caliber. With Power, he has a road/street course ace who still isn't all that great on ovals. With Helio, he has a marketable star and still one of the best at Indy. If you bring Sam back (which I think is very plausable), you don't get the best of road racers, but you get a top 2 or 3 oval talent who has proven he can win at Indy. With Helio and Power, you have 2 solid road racers. Getting Sam back into the fold, gives you a much better oval racer then Power and someone who has proven he can win at Indy (which Briscoe has failed to show he can do). Plus if Pennzoil is a part of the Indy Car equation next year, the Sam/Pennzoil connection is a natural. I would expect these "rumors" to start circulating sometime this summer.


-Simona is the "real deal". In fact, I heard a well known Indy Car owner make the exact comment this May. Its only natural she moves up to a bigger team very soon. I think Panther makes a ton of sense. If Wheldon moves on, they could team Simona up with a young (and much cheaper) driver in the #4 National Guard car to form a nice 2 car team. I am thinking Mr. Hildebrand would make some sense if Dan moves on, but we'll just have to see on that one. That is total speculation on my part (but I think JR has to figure in somewhere, soon). Dan's 2nd place run today and his improved performance this season may make him and the team want to continue this marriage past 2010.

But I think Simona is on her way up the ladder in this sport. She has exceeded most people's expectations of her and she looked very comfortable all month at Indy with a car that EJ Viso was never good in last year. She was solid in the race and kept her nose clean (although she had a few close calls). That says a lot, when you consider she had no teammates, had run 1 oval race in her life and one of the smallest operations in the field.

[NickFalzone]

Yeah, Roger really did look pissed, haven't seen him like that in awhile and usually it's directed at Barnhart, not one of his drivers.

Hornish probably should come back to Indy, he's embarrassing himself (and indycar a bit too) over in stock-car land. Won't happen though, too much pride on the part of RP and Sam to give up on it. Only way it will happen is if sponsorship for Sam's 77 becomes an impossibility. I also think that at this stage, Sam would not necessarily be a stronger Indycar driver than Briscoe. Yeah he was good on ovals, but he's prob lost a bit of that touch the last few years, and he was never all that good on road/streets. I'd stay with Briscoe, or go with another driver like Rahal.

What I see in Simona is focus. She may not be getting great cars but she is working with whatever she gets to run mid-pack or better. At Indy for her rookie year to run 14th with HVM is I think a significant accomplishment. She is not out there throwing tantrums or making desperate moves on the track. She's driving smart and fast. While she may not be making the "big" results yet, for those hardcore fans who watch every week, it's pretty clear that she's one of the most talented rookies to come along in awhile. That she is intelligent, well-spoken, and good with fans is just a bonus.

[px400r]

Time will tell.

Here's the IBJ's take on this year's 500...

http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2010/05/30/2010-indianapolis-500-full-of-winners-and-losers/PARAMS/post/20249

[SarahFan]

Time will tell.

Here's the IBJ's take on this year's 500...

http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2010/05/30/2010-indianapolis-500-full-of-winners-and-losers/PARAMS/post/20249


decent article.....


*wouldnt it be nice if Penske or the Pimp quitly slipped sarah a chassis next May...

[bblocker68]

Bring back Allmendinger and put him in the #6. That'll shake things up a bit.

[NickFalzone]

Bring back Allmendinger and put him in the #6. That'll shake things up a bit.

I would rather see the Dinger move to IndyCars rather than Hornish. More entertaining personality and certainly a major threat on the roads/streets. Unfortunately he's doing too well in NASCAR to even contemplate the move at the moment.

[ICWS]

-Simona is the "real deal". In fact, I heard a well known Indy Car owner make the exact comment this May. Its only natural she moves up to a bigger team very soon. I think Panther makes a ton of sense. If Wheldon moves on, they could team Simona up with a young (and much cheaper) driver in the #4 National Guard car to form a nice 2 car team. I am thinking Mr. Hildebrand would make some sense if Dan moves on, but we'll just have to see on that one. That is total speculation on my part (but I think JR has to figure in somewhere, soon). Dan's 2nd place run today and his improved performance this season may make him and the team want to continue this marriage past 2010.

But I think Simona is on her way up the ladder in this sport. She has exceeded most people's expectations of her and she looked very comfortable all month at Indy with a car that EJ Viso was never good in last year. She was solid in the race and kept her nose clean (although she had a few close calls). That says a lot, when you consider she had no teammates, had run 1 oval race in her life and one of the smallest operations in the field.

I agree; Simona is the driver to look out for during the off-season. Getting a good ride with a team like Panther, KVRT, D&R, etc. would improve her situation greatly. She seems to go along with what she has and makes the best of it and she seems to also lack a sense of entitlement, which is a good thing. She's doing a terrific job considering her situation right now, which should appeal to other teams. I also think that she presents a good representation of a female auto racer and is a better role model for aspiring female racers in comparison to Danica Patrick and Milka Duno.

What I like most about her is that although she races aggressively in order to maintain or improve her position on the track, she has enough etiquette to not race like a moving chicane and knows when to get out of other drivers' way if she doesn't run as fast as them. This shows that she has integrity and has a more honest approach to racing in comparison to some of the other drivers out there (John Andretti).

[Anubis]

Be interesting to see what Adam Carrol can do later in the season and if that secures him a drive for next year.

[Scotty G.]

I would rather see the Dinger move to IndyCars rather than Hornish. More entertaining personality and certainly a major threat on the roads/streets. Unfortunately he's doing too well in NASCAR to even contemplate the move at the moment.

Dinger is a stock car driver now. Plus he never seemed to have much of a passion for the Indy 500 (although it would be nice to see him be one of the NASCAR guys that come over and try for the 20 million).

Sam is a Penske driver. They might only be able to run 3 Cup cars next year and Kurt Busch, Keselowski and Allgaier are a lock for those 3 seats. Sam's Cup career is going nowhere and its time for him to go back (like Dario did) where he was best.

Sam was a Pennzoil driver for many years. Sam won the Indy 500 with Penske. Penske won the Indy 500 with Pennzoil before. Pennzoil is going to be a part of the Penske Indy Car program next year.

Makes a lot of sense. RP has Power and Helio for the road courses. Sam was a stud on the ovals and would win again in short order for RP in Indy Cars. Would make a complete team and would add a winning American driver to the sport. Plus Sam had developed quite the fan following in his last few years in the IRL (he would regularly get one of the biggest hands during driver intros).

Just something to keep an eye on.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I like the idea of Sam back at Indy. Like DP, it is a track where he runs REALLY well, even if nothing is working anywhere else. Briscoe isn't ready for prime time and at Penske, that is a death knell to the career with him.

Simona to me is doing all the right things, and I hope she gets a result that makes the great unwashed and the idiots in the tv trucks pay attention. It is clear that the Danicamania the grips ESPN and to a lesser extent VS has blinded them to the rise of Simona di Silverstro.

AS for other things I noticed from this year's race. I think the idea of the covered front wheels anyhow might be coming. The one thing on the Delta Wing that has great merit is those faired in front wheels....

That crash with Conway and Hunter-Reay was scary stuff, and I thought of two things when it was over. 1) Conway was about 5 to 10 feet short of clearning the fence, and I would think no car could get that high but it was just too scary to conteplate. I will also say that those posts holding the fence really tore his car up. Much like the fatal crash in Toronto years ago, the posts are hard on a monocoque chassis, and Mike was lucky in a sense for all the research done on making cars survive these hits. 2) Mike's crash was because he was desparately trying to make something happen. Indy is a hard place to get by people with stock cars or IRL cars, but I think this format of Dallara's with Honda's for everyone has made it really hard.

I hope in the future the first step to making this series interesting is letting the teams pick and choose chassis that fit the rules, and do some mod's that are property of the teams. In short, maybe spread the field out a little....The fact is, the best teams are the best teams in any format, but at least with some speed differential and some ability to find ways to make a car much faster, it gives hope...

[e2mtt]

I...
I hope in the future the first step to making this series interesting is letting the teams pick and choose chassis that fit the rules, and do some mod's that are property of the teams. In short, maybe spread the field out a little....The fact is, the best teams are the best teams in any format, but at least with some speed differential and some ability to find ways to make a car much faster, it gives hope...

How about a standard chassis/tub (that could be produced by any manufacturer as long as it fit in a tight envelope & had the same hardpoint attachment points) that the teams were free to put their own bits all over? Wings, wheels, sculpted fairings, engine, all fair game. Let independent manufacturers of car accessories step up with retail-available wings, intake scoops, mirrors, etc., or let the Penske & Ganassi's fab their own.

[Bob Riebe]

Yeah, Roger really did look pissed, haven't seen him like that in awhile and usually it's directed at Barnhart, not one of his drivers.

Hornish probably should come back to Indy, he's embarrassing himself (and indycar a bit too) over in stock-car land. Won't happen though, too much pride on the part of RP and Sam to give up on it. Only way it will happen is if sponsorship for Sam's 77 becomes an impossibility. I also think that at this stage, Sam would not necessarily be a stronger Indycar driver than Briscoe. Yeah he was good on ovals, but he's prob lost a bit of that touch the last few years, and he was never all that good on road/streets. I'd stay with Briscoe, or go with another driver like Rahal.

What I see in Simona is focus. She may not be getting great cars but she is working with whatever she gets to run mid-pack or better. At Indy for her rookie year to run 14th with HVM is I think a significant accomplishment. She is not out there throwing tantrums or making desperate moves on the track. She's driving smart and fast. While she may not be making the "big" results yet, for those hardcore fans who watch every week, it's pretty clear that she's one of the most talented rookies to come along in awhile. That she is intelligent, well-spoken, and good with fans is just a bonus.

As many years as Penske has been in NASCAR, he never has really been able to fit (out spend or make advantageous outside deals) the way he has in other series.
He has had success, and sometimes unique success, but he really is outside his comfort zone there.

[Mark in Oshawa]

How about a standard chassis/tub (that could be produced by any manufacturer as long as it fit in a tight envelope & had the same hardpoint attachment points) that the teams were free to put their own bits all over? Wings, wheels, sculpted fairings, engine, all fair game. Let independent manufacturers of car accessories step up with retail-available wings, intake scoops, mirrors, etc., or let the Penske & Ganassi's fab their own.

That is what I would advocate. Have Dallara or whomever build a basic tub, and have mounting points for noses, mirrors, wings, and appendages. Have the only common parts the tub, the mounting points at the back of the chassis where any motor could be mounted as a stressed member, and the fuel bladder/side pods without fairings standard. Basically, let the teams dress the cars to suit the rules. Give them all a flat bottom between the axles and demand only single element wings up front.

Maybe I am naive, but I think something that allows people to see new ideas, and the innovation that we used to see in racing have some sort of resurgence. I am not pining for the days of people showing up with diesels or gas turbines....but at some point, fresh ideas have to be in the mix.

[Bob Riebe]

That is what I would advocate. Have Dallara or whomever build a basic tub, and have mounting points for noses, mirrors, wings, and appendages. Have the only common parts the tub, the mounting points at the back of the chassis where any motor could be mounted as a stressed member, and the fuel bladder/side pods without fairings standard. Basically, let the teams dress the cars to suit the rules. Give them all a flat bottom between the axles and demand only single element wings up front.

Maybe I am naive, but I think something that allows people to see new ideas, and the innovation that we used to see in racing have some sort of resurgence. I am not pining for the days of people showing up with diesels or gas turbines....but at some point, fresh ideas have to be in the mix.
Remove wings front and rear, that would slow the cars down considerably.

Go back to trim tabs and spoilers such as were run up to 1971.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Remove wings front and rear, that would slow the cars down considerably.

Go back to trim tabs and spoilers such as were run up to 1971.

I would go for that. Hell, I have always said if Tony in 1996 dictated the IRL would run roadsters with no wings at all, I would have been on board. Aero has made cars really fast no doubt, but it has made cars so vulnerable to turbulence that passing is almost a lost art now at Indy....

[e2mtt]

I've said it many times... one of the big reasons why I'd like to see a LOT more variation & heavy use of bolt-on parts is for sponsorship & fan involvement reasons. Rather then have a chassis totally built by Dallara (some Italian race-car company) with engines leased from Honda (engines you can't buy for any other reason), you could have cars with parts bolted on from Brembo & Roots & Stillen & K&N & BBS & American Racing & all of the hundreds of other small manufacturers specializing in performance aftermarket parts. Maybe even bolted onto Ford & Honda engines that are the same displacement as what's in street cars.

[e2mtt]

Also relative - the cost of entry has got to come down.

Most figures say you can buy/build a complete Nascar Cup car for $125,000. Of course the salaries & travel & facilities mean there is no upper limit on what you can spend, but $125,000 gets you a shiny new racecar that can make the field on Sunday and pick up an $65,000+ purse for being dead last.

Best as I can figure, right now it cost over $400,000 to buy a new chassis these days. A lease for a full year of engines costs 1 million, and you don't get to keep 'em. A lease for an engine for the Indy 500 costs between $90,000 & $210,000 depending on how much you want to practice. Indy pays great purses, but most Indycar races don't pay a purse at all - you get 1.2 million at the end if you run all the races in a season.

Anyway you look at it, racing is incredibly expensive, but it sure seems like Indycar could do some work in making entry easier.

[call_me_andrew]

Remove wings front and rear, that would slow the cars down considerably.

Go back to trim tabs and spoilers such as were run up to 1971.

How would that make them slower at Indy? They already trim the wings to -5 degrees for qualifying; they're sacrificing drag for lift!

[racer69]

In the corners they'd be slower

[anthonyvop]

In the corners they'd be slower


Not in qualifying trim. In fact they would actually be quicker down the straights without any appreciable loss of cornering speed.

[Bob Riebe]

How would that make them slower at Indy? They already trim the wings to -5 degrees for qualifying; they're sacrificing drag for lift!
When wings were allowed, speeds jumped amost twenty mph in just two years.

There is a HUGE difference between trim-tabs and spoilers, and wings- front and rear.

[Bob Riebe]

Not in qualifying trim. In fact they would actually be quicker down the straights without any appreciable loss of cornering speed.
They would be slower by a great degree in the cornes; straight speeds might go up.

[px400r]

I've said it many times... one of the big reasons why I'd like to see a LOT more variation & heavy use of bolt-on parts is for sponsorship & fan involvement reasons. Rather then have a chassis totally built by Dallara (some Italian race-car company) with engines leased from Honda (engines you can't buy for any other reason), you could have cars with parts bolted on from Brembo & Roots & Stillen & K&N & BBS & American Racing & all of the hundreds of other small manufacturers specializing in performance aftermarket parts. Maybe even bolted onto Ford & Honda engines that are the same displacement as what's in street cars.

I don't see how aftermarket bolt-on parts will increase sponsorship and fan involvement. There are other forms of motorsport that fit your description but don't get the exposure the IRL gets (as small as it is).

The genie was let out of the bottle when F1 engineers came in the 60's and displaced the regular old mechanics. Science and engineering (and it's associated cost) became the new source of innovation rather than the one off specials built in someone's backyard.

[Mark in Oshawa]

In the corners they'd be slower

By taking the aero off the cars, the corner speeds would be less, but the straightaway speeds might be higher. What you would see however is a differential, and it would require the drivers to drive and feel out that sweet spot through the corners. It would add an element of skill and feel to this sport to an extent we don't see now. We would see people getting out braked going into the corners.....

[Bob Riebe]

By taking the aero off the cars, the corner speeds would be less, but the straightaway speeds might be higher. What you would see however is a differential, and it would require the drivers to drive and feel out that sweet spot through the corners. It would add an element of skill and feel to this sport to an extent we don't see now. We would see people getting out braked going into the corners.....
BRAVO!

Mario Andretti same pretty mfuch the same thing last year in Motorsport magazine.
He also said now any competent driver can flat-foot it around the track, it used to be being truly fast separated the good from the great.

[call_me_andrew]

I don't see how aftermarket bolt-on parts will increase sponsorship and fan involvement. There are other forms of motorsport that fit your description but don't get the exposure the IRL gets (as small as it is).

From the sponsors point of view: Common parts mean that there is only one part supplier involved in the race. That one part supplier may use its involvement in the series as a means of advertising the quality of its products, but it would be the only one doing so. Multiple suppliers mean that different companies could use examples of how their parts preform in a race compared to other companies to promote their product.

From the fans point of view: If everyone has the same parts save for a few "gray area" pieces, then whoever invests the most money in this "gray area" will win the most races. When we expand this "gray area", it becomes harder to dial-in a "perfect car".

EDIT: That means different teams will win oval races.

[garyshell]

By taking the aero off the cars, the corner speeds would be less, but the straightaway speeds might be higher. What you would see however is a differential, and it would require the drivers to drive and feel out that sweet spot through the corners. It would add an element of skill and feel to this sport to an extent we don't see now. We would see people getting out braked going into the corners.....

Many of us have been repeating this mantra for a long time. Aero is NOT our friend, taken to its extreme it has taken the driver too far out of the equation. I want to see lots of oversteer due to less aero, more horsepower and harder tire compounds (not to the point of lots of marbles though). I want to see the drivers actually drive the cars. From the stands, they appear to be passengers most of the time. Change that and the fans get a more exciting product than what we have.

Gary

[racer69]

Back to the first post for a second;

-What evidence, if any, is there that Dixon would go to Deferran/Dragon? You'd be pretty silly to give up a Ganassi car while they are still running the current regs.

-Not sure this Indy win will be enough for Franchitti to call it quits, he was quoted in Motorsport as saying he saw himself in Indycars for years to come.

-Agree that Briscoe must be on some slightly shaky ground... but he may have been anyway as i'd find it hard to believe Penske would run 3 cars next year like he is this year (the two 'main' cars un-sponsored).... i'd see a Castroneves/Power team next year as most likely.


By taking the aero off the cars, the corner speeds would be less, but the straightaway speeds might be higher. What you would see however is a differential, and it would require the drivers to drive and feel out that sweet spot through the corners. It would add an element of skill and feel to this sport to an extent we don't see now. We would see people getting out braked going into the corners.....

I agree with you, completely

[px400r]

From the sponsors point of view: Common parts mean that there is only one part supplier involved in the race. That one part supplier may use its involvement in the series as a means of advertising the quality of its products, but it would be the only one doing so. Multiple suppliers mean that different companies could use examples of how their parts preform in a race compared to other companies to promote their product.

Perhaps, but I can't imagine these types of suppliers putting enough money into a sport to make a difference. The more likely outcome is that the cost of these parts will drive up the price of competition.



From the fans point of view: If everyone has the same parts save for a few "gray area" pieces, then whoever invests the most money in this "gray area" will win the most races. When we expand this "gray area", it becomes harder to dial-in a "perfect car".

EDIT: That means different teams will win oval races.

This gray area is where Penske and Ganassi excel because the have the budget and the means to exploit it. If you want more teams to win oval races, take away the "gray area", don't expand it.

IMO.

[SarahFan]

over the past few seasons everytime the collective seems to think briscoe is on the way out he just happens to win a race or two

[e2mtt]

Perhaps, but I can't imagine these types of suppliers putting enough money into a sport to make a difference. The more likely outcome is that the cost of these parts will drive up the price of competition.


The thought being that when open specs for Indycar parts are released, there are 25 to 40 teams looking to buy parts. Wings, wheels, brakes, suspension parts, etc. get changed all the time, they are wear items, especially if crashed. When it is time for new bits, teams could buy whatever fit their need. Yes some parts might be more expensive, but others could decrease, as competition & innovation between parts manufacturers competing for sales drove development. If HPI, HyperPerformance, Lola, etc. all create a nose wing, they would try to both make it competitive, durable, & economical, or nobody would buy their stuff next time they needed spares. The parts suppliers wouldn't need to "put enough money into" Indycar, they would just need to put money into manufacturing stuff teams want to buy.

Rather then spend tons of large team man-hours trying to develop custom mods just for your car that may not work, you buy the part that works the best & put your modest sized team to work making it fast. If you see Penske sporting a new trick part, you snap a picture of it & email to your suppliers saying: Put this on your next version!


This gray area is where Penske and Ganassi excel because the have the budget and the means to exploit it. If you want more teams to win oval races, take away the "gray area", don't expand it.

IMO.

Not usually. The good thing about lots of "gray areas" is that teams will have many combinations to work with it. Sometimes the good teams will get it wrong, sometimes a back-marker will get it exactly right for a race. When everything is so closely controlled & defined the way it is now in both Indycar & Nascar, there is no room for experiments. The team with more money and especially more manpower will always be in front.

[Lousada]

By taking the aero off the cars, the corner speeds would be less, but the straightaway speeds might be higher. What you would see however is a differential, and it would require the drivers to drive and feel out that sweet spot through the corners. It would add an element of skill and feel to this sport to an extent we don't see now. We would see people getting out braked going into the corners.....

Am I right thinking this will also solve the marbles problem? Maybe with slower cornering speeds we can finally have multiple grooves back.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This gray area is where Penske and Ganassi excel because the have the budget and the means to exploit it. If you want more teams to win oval races, take away the "gray area", don't expand it.

IMO.

There is no gray area now and show me who wins besides Penske and Ganassi on ovals.....spurious and untrue. With changes, a small team might find something the big guys miss and find a way to compete.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Am I right thinking this will also solve the marbles problem? Maybe with slower cornering speeds we can finally have multiple grooves back.

Marbles are from tire compounds used now. You see marbles at Indy with NASCAR and I think if you built a race car at Indy that had no aero aids, they would turn faster laps than NASCAR, but still cornering/straightway speed differentials would be relative, and marbles likely would be an issue unless the tire company found a compound that wouldn't create marbles but still give the performance required. Since the cars are lighter than a Sprint Car, in theory this should be doable, but who would have thought Goodyear would have made the mess they did 2 years ago at Indy with NASCAR? Tire science is on the ragged edge right now...

[Mark in Oshawa]

The answer is pretty easy. Only allow no or, at most, one tire change per race. With the exception of punctures of course. The further a tire must go the less "gummy" it will be and the fewer marbles.

DANGER Will Robinson!!!! That was sort of what Goodyear was trying to do with their NASCAR tire when they screwed up. They wanted a harder compound to avoid the marbles...and they ended up with a tire that was too hard to rubber up the track at all....and it just turned to dust.

This is a very complicated thing for the tire makers, because as Goodyear proved that weekend, and Michelin proved with their f1 tires blowing up, this isn't an exact science yet...

[Scotty G.]

Back to the first post for a second;

1. What evidence, if any, is there that Dixon would go to Deferran/Dragon? You'd be pretty silly to give up a Ganassi car while they are still running the current regs.

2. Not sure this Indy win will be enough for Franchitti to call it quits, he was quoted in Motorsport as saying he saw himself in Indycars for years to come.

3. Agree that Briscoe must be on some slightly shaky ground... but he may have been anyway as i'd find it hard to believe Penske would run 3 cars next year like he is this year (the two 'main' cars un-sponsored).... i'd see a Castroneves/Power team next year as most likely.




1. Maybe Dixon wants to actually make some money for once? Maybe Scott needs a different challenge? Maybe he is tired of working for Floyd? Maybe Jay Penske and Gil are about ready for a big step up in their games?

2. Dario about quit after last season. He's 37 and has more money then God. He has won everything he ever wanted to and has never had a serious injury. He's married to Ashley Judd. If he does hang it up, strong rumors that Graham Rahal will replace him (and its been in the works for a while). If Dixon leaves, Chip likes Justin Wilson. For Chip, he gets to save some money (which is always a key for him). And he doesn't think drivers are all that important in the sport anyway nowadays (which unfortunately, he is probably right).

3. Penske is going to have Pennzoil on at least one his Indy cars next year (through a "freebie" deal he did to get them to sponsor his Cup car). He has no sponsor currently for Sam in Cup. He has 3 Cup cars all ready to go for 2011 (Busch in the #22 Pennzoil car; Keselowski in the Miller Lite #2 and Allgaier in the Verizon #12). Sam's is up in the air. Sam and Pennzoil go way back. He won more then a few races for them back in the day of the real IRL. RP likes Sam. Sam wants to stay with RP (smart guy). Sam is a Indy 500 champion. Add it all up and it makes a lot of sense.

Power stays in the Verizon #12, Sam runs the Pennzoil #6 and a sponsor to be names runs the ???? #3 for Helio. 3 cars are no problem for RP. And with Will, Helio and Sam he will have a complete team.

Briscoe is just too error-prone to last long with RP. Plus he has made serious boners at Indy 2 of his 3 years there. RP doesn't put up with those kinds of mistakes at Indy, when there are so few teams/drivers capable of winning there now.

[e2mtt]

Good points. I can't argue with you on anything there.

[Mark in Oshawa]

1. Maybe Dixon wants to actually make some money for once? Maybe Scott needs a different challenge? Maybe he is tired of working for Floyd? Maybe Jay Penske and Gil are about ready for a big step up in their games?

2. Dario about quit after last season. He's 37 and has more money then God. He has won everything he ever wanted to and has never had a serious injury. He's married to Ashley Judd. If he does hang it up, strong rumors that Graham Rahal will replace him (and its been in the works for a while). If Dixon leaves, Chip likes Justin Wilson. For Chip, he gets to save some money (which is always a key for him). And he doesn't think drivers are all that important in the sport anyway nowadays (which unfortunately, he is probably right).

3. Penske is going to have Pennzoil on at least one his Indy cars next year (through a "freebie" deal he did to get them to sponsor his Cup car). He has no sponsor currently for Sam in Cup. He has 3 Cup cars all ready to go for 2011 (Busch in the #22 Pennzoil car; Keselowski in the Miller Lite #2 and Allgaier in the Verizon #12). Sam's is up in the air. Sam and Pennzoil go way back. He won more then a few races for them back in the day of the real IRL. RP likes Sam. Sam wants to stay with RP (smart guy). Sam is a Indy 500 champion. Add it all up and it makes a lot of sense.

Power stays in the Verizon #12, Sam runs the Pennzoil #6 and a sponsor to be names runs the ???? #3 for Helio. 3 cars are no problem for RP. And with Will, Helio and Sam he will have a complete team.

Briscoe is just too error-prone to last long with RP. Plus he has made serious boners at Indy 2 of his 3 years there. RP doesn't put up with those kinds of mistakes at Indy, when there are so few teams/drivers capable of winning there now.

Only point I quibble about is your assertion that Chip doesn't think drivers are all that important for the sport anyhow. That is dead wrong. I think he just hires the guys who will win for him, and in your eyes, because he hasn't hired an American in a while, that therefore invalidates what he thinks of drivers. IT is just your opinion. Furthermore, Dario has been pretty much seen by many race fans as popular as any American (who could root against a man married to Ashley Judd??). I don't think for a second Chip considers the drivers for anything but their ability to put the right pedal down and bring home wins...

[Scotty G.]

Only point I quibble about is your assertion that Chip doesn't think drivers are all that important for the sport anyhow. That is dead wrong. I think he just hires the guys who will win for him, and in your eyes, because he hasn't hired an American in a while, that therefore invalidates what he thinks of drivers. IT is just your opinion. Furthermore, Dario has been pretty much seen by many race fans as popular as any American (who could root against a man married to Ashley Judd??). I don't think for a second Chip considers the drivers for anything but their ability to put the right pedal down and bring home wins...


Mark, I just heard a very insightful interview that Chip's right hand man Mike Hull gave to Curt Cavin and Kevin Lee this week, where he is quoted as saying "with the current formula, the driver means very little" (or words to that effect).

Chip and Hull both believe (correctly so, IMO) that there are a WHOLE lot of drivers who would look good driving one of their cars or one of Penske's cars.

Not saying Dixon and Dario aren't talented drivers. But Chip and RP's teams are so much farther ahead and better financed and better prepared and have better equipment then all the other teams, its not even funny. There are a few teams that have the finances and personnel but their drivers are terrible. There are a few teams that have a good driver, but don't have the money or equipment. There are a few teams that don't have anything.

Just telling you what Mike Hull thinks.

[call_me_andrew]

Marbles are from tire compounds used now. You see marbles at Indy with NASCAR and I think if you built a race car at Indy that had no aero aids, they would turn faster laps than NASCAR, but still cornering/straightway speed differentials would be relative, and marbles likely would be an issue unless the tire company found a compound that wouldn't create marbles but still give the performance required. Since the cars are lighter than a Sprint Car, in theory this should be doable, but who would have thought Goodyear would have made the mess they did 2 years ago at Indy with NASCAR? Tire science is on the ragged edge right now...

Marbles are a necessary evil. When a tire gets hot, it sheds rubber to dissipate heat; the softer the compound, the more it sheds. Rain tires are the exception as they're cooled by water.

[call_me_andrew]

This gray area is where Penske and Ganassi excel because the have the budget and the means to exploit it. If you want more teams to win oval races, take away the "gray area", don't expand it.

IMO.

How's that working out for IROC?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, I just heard a very insightful interview that Chip's right hand man Mike Hull gave to Curt Cavin and Kevin Lee this week, where he is quoted as saying "with the current formula, the driver means very little" (or words to that effect).

Chip and Hull both believe (correctly so, IMO) that there are a WHOLE lot of drivers who would look good driving one of their cars or one of Penske's cars.

Not saying Dixon and Dario aren't talented drivers. But Chip and RP's teams are so much farther ahead and better financed and better prepared and have better equipment then all the other teams, its not even funny. There are a few teams that have the finances and personnel but their drivers are terrible. There are a few teams that have a good driver, but don't have the money or equipment. There are a few teams that don't have anything.

Just telling you what Mike Hull thinks.

If that is the case, then they would have Joe the ride buyer in there if the driver means nothing. The fact is, a savvy and smart driver still matters, and it is why Chip has another Indy 500 to his credit. Hull is referring to the fact they prepare their cars better and that gives them a large edge, but I don't see Chip hiring cheap talent, so that says to me the driver definately matters. Just ask Roger Penske, who is wondering why he put Briscoe in one of his cars for Indy......

[Jag_Warrior]

The thought being that when open specs for Indycar parts are released, there are 25 to 40 teams looking to buy parts. Wings, wheels, brakes, suspension parts, etc. get changed all the time, they are wear items, especially if crashed. When it is time for new bits, teams could buy whatever fit their need. Yes some parts might be more expensive, but others could decrease, as competition & innovation between parts manufacturers competing for sales drove development. If HPI, HyperPerformance, Lola, etc. all create a nose wing, they would try to both make it competitive, durable, & economical, or nobody would buy their stuff next time they needed spares. The parts suppliers wouldn't need to "put enough money into" Indycar, they would just need to put money into manufacturing stuff teams want to buy.

Rather then spend tons of large team man-hours trying to develop custom mods just for your car that may not work, you buy the part that works the best & put your modest sized team to work making it fast. If you see Penske sporting a new trick part, you snap a picture of it & email to your suppliers saying: Put this on your next version!.

While I think it would be great to see companies becoming more involved in the sport from a supplier standpoint (as a sponsor, we actually had one of our divisions develop a wheel nut for Team Rahal which wouldn't cross-thread and was claimed to shave several tenths off of each pitstop), these days, they're trying to keep the series as "spec" as possible. It doesn't seem that the league wants a variety of suppliers, because that would mean a variety of opportunities for teams to find an advantage over other teams.

And when it comes to certain items, while one might be able develop and produce a version of the item, depending on what it was, there would likely be patent issues if it represented something the company was going to use in OEM applications.

I just don't get the feeling that most of these teams have enough money to do much besides buy a spec chassis, buy some spec parts and show up for races (with ride buyers). The ones who do have the money (Penske, Ganassi, maybe Andretti) have already established a gap between themselves and the rest of the field. If they could develop (or buy) custom mods, I think the gap would just get that much wider. And since outside makers would need extensive R&D (wind tunnels, shakers, on-track testing, etc.) to even have a basic idea of whether or not their parts were effective vs. other parts, we're talking about money that does not exist in this series at the present. Either that or the teams would have to use the old shotgun approach/try it til ya get it right and waste even more money that they don't have.

But still, it's a nice thought. Back in the CART days it was fun to see people at the track who worked for automotive aftermarket suppliers who were trying to dip their toe in the water. It added more to the buzz than people realize. But what we have now is more like an Americanized version of GP2. Where once companies proudly proclaimed that they made spark plugs, air filters, wheels, brakes etc. for Indy/Champ cars, only a hardcore fan could tell you much more than the engines are Hondas, the tires are Firestones and they run on ethanol now. Steve Horne attended the last Champ Car race in Cleveland and noted how sad it was: it had become so GP2 like (his words). IMO, the same now applies to the IRL, so that's why I used that phrase. Where did the buzz and excitement go??? It's not just the parts suppliers, technical partners and associate sponsors who could bring some buzz back. It's the parts suppliers, technical partners, associate sponsors and 50 other things.

I like where you're coming from. But it's like a guy with bad credit who needs to refi his mortgage. If he could refi, that would certainly help him. But the fact that he has bad credit prevents him from getting that help. The IRL needs to prove to sponsors and suppliers that it's worth the risk. If you owned a machine shop or a fab shop, would you make Indy car specific parts, thinking that you would make any (real) money, or even get paid on time? I wouldn't. I'd do what a friend of mine does: make parts for stock cars and rake in a comfortable six figure income.

[Mark in Oshawa]

While I think it would be great to see companies becoming more involved in the sport from a supplier standpoint (as a sponsor, we actually had one of our divisions develop a wheel nut for Team Rahal which wouldn't cross-thread and was claimed to shave several tenths off of each pitstop), these days, they're trying to keep the series as "spec" as possible. It doesn't seem that the league wants a variety of suppliers, because that would mean a variety of opportunities for teams to find an advantage over other teams.

And when it comes to certain items, while one might be able develop and produce a version of the item, depending on what it was, there would likely be patent issues if it represented something the company was going to use in OEM applications.

I just don't get the feeling that most of these teams have enough money to do much besides buy a spec chassis, buy some spec parts and show up for races (with ride buyers). The ones who do have the money (Penske, Ganassi, maybe Andretti) have already established a gap between themselves and the rest of the field. If they could develop (or buy) custom mods, I think the gap would just get that much wider. And since outside makers would need extensive R&D (wind tunnels, shakers, on-track testing, etc.) to even have a basic idea of whether or not their parts were effective vs. other parts, we're talking about money that does not exist in this series at the present. Either that or the teams would have to use the old shotgun approach/try it til ya get it right and waste even more money that they don't have.

But still, it's a nice thought. Back in the CART days it was fun to see people at the track who worked for automotive aftermarket suppliers who were trying to dip their toe in the water. It added more to the buzz than people realize. But what we have now is more like an Americanized version of GP2. Where once companies proudly proclaimed that they made spark plugs, air filters, wheels, brakes etc. for Indy/Champ cars, only a hardcore fan could tell you much more than the engines are Hondas, the tires are Firestones and they run on ethanol now. Steve Horne attended the last Champ Car race in Cleveland and noted how sad it was: it had become so GP2 like (his words). IMO, the same now applies to the IRL, so that's why I used that phrase. Where did the buzz and excitement go??? It's not just the parts suppliers, technical partners and associate sponsors who could bring some buzz back. It's the parts suppliers, technical partners, associate sponsors and 50 other things.

I like where you're coming from. But it's like a guy with bad credit who needs to refi his mortgage. If he could refi, that would certainly help him. But the fact that he has bad credit prevents him from getting that help. The IRL needs to prove to sponsors and suppliers that it's worth the risk. If you owned a machine shop or a fab shop, would you make Indy car specific parts, thinking that you would make any (real) money, or even get paid on time? I wouldn't. I'd do what a friend of mine does: make parts for stock cars and rake in a comfortable six figure income.

Good points. The thing is, if the IRL is to survive and grow again, this spec racing mentality has to go. We have all agreed on it. As you point out though, the money is the issue. I will just say this much: The spec racing formula has NOT enhanced the product on track. So for you to say opening up mods and development would favour Penske and Ganassi is one thing, but who is winning most of the races now anyhow? Same teams. See the problem? I do....the product is as dull as dish water on some circuits because the specs of the cars as they stand right now don't encourage passing, it creates a situation where no one can build up enough of a speed differential to get by. Dull product on the track is killing this series, and if the gimmicky push to pass was to really matter, I would love Honda to be giving guys an extra 100 hp for those 15 pushes. Anyone think that wouldn't change things?

[e2mtt]

...
I like where you're coming from. But it's like a guy with bad credit who needs to refi his mortgage. If he could refi, that would certainly help him. But the fact that he has bad credit prevents him from getting that help. The IRL needs to prove to sponsors and suppliers that it's worth the risk. If you owned a machine shop or a fab shop, would you make Indy car specific parts, thinking that you would make any (real) money, or even get paid on time? I wouldn't. I'd do what a friend of mine does: make parts for stock cars and rake in a comfortable six figure income.

True words there. Great credit analogy.

[racer69]

over the past few seasons everytime the collective seems to think briscoe is on the way out he just happens to win a race or two

You weren't half wrong, He's started the right way this weekend :)

[Jag_Warrior]

Good points. The thing is, if the IRL is to survive and grow again, this spec racing mentality has to go. We have all agreed on it. As you point out though, the money is the issue. I will just say this much: The spec racing formula has NOT enhanced the product on track. So for you to say opening up mods and development would favour Penske and Ganassi is one thing, but who is winning most of the races now anyhow? Same teams. See the problem? I do....the product is as dull as dish water on some circuits because the specs of the cars as they stand right now don't encourage passing, it creates a situation where no one can build up enough of a speed differential to get by. Dull product on the track is killing this series, and if the gimmicky push to pass was to really matter, I would love Honda to be giving guys an extra 100 hp for those 15 pushes. Anyone think that wouldn't change things?

I agree with where both you and e2mtt are coming from. I used to have ideas on what should/could be done. But so much value (money) has been taken out of the series, I really don't know how they could do anything meaningful now, without also robbing a bank (or asking for a bailout) to pay for it.

Penske having problems finding a primary sponsor?! Did you ever think you'd hear of such a thing???!!! That's why it seems to me that adding in extraordinary development costs would just set the backmarkers that much farther back.

But yeah, I'd love to see something be done to spice up the show (short of All Danica, All the Time). F1 certainly did it with its new chassis and engine regs. But there are no Ross Brawns or Adrian Neweys in the IRL. :(

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree with where both you and e2mtt are coming from. I used to have ideas on what should/could be done. But so much value (money) has been taken out of the series, I really don't know how they could do anything meaningful now, without also robbing a bank (or asking for a bailout) to pay for it.

Penske having problems finding a primary sponsor?! Did you ever think you'd hear of such a thing???!!! That's why it seems to me that adding in extraordinary development costs would just set the backmarkers that much farther back.

But yeah, I'd love to see something be done to spice up the show (short of All Danica, All the Time). F1 certainly did it with its new chassis and engine regs. But there are no Ross Brawns or Adrian Neweys in the IRL. :(

Well first off, Penske not having sponsors is partially due to his staying with Marlboro for about a year or so too long....when the music stopped at that party, just about any major sponsors were tied up.

The thing is Jag, the money isn't there, but the racing is dull. If you cannot find any way to spread the field, make passing happen, make something happen, and add uncertainty into all the races, not just the ones with rain, then it is a dead issue anyhow. The only way they get back sponsor attention is if they put a better show on at every opportunity on every type of track in every market. They have the car count now to make it happen. I think they have to an extent the number of talented guys and gals behind the wheel to make for a decent series, but there is NO room for the cars to evolve as it stands now. Brian Barnhart legislated this series in to a static death spiral.

It may have to take some awkward steps to get out of it, but I think it can be done. Lets put it this way Jag, it HAS to be done. They are just treading water right now....and that is an optimistic look. Scotty and other D and G guys would say they are dead man walking. I notice they wont quit kicking the body tho.

[px400r]

How's that working out for IROC?

IROC? Really? You want to compare a NASCAR side show that has spec and equally prepared cars as it's premise to Indy Car?

Really?

[px400r]

Good points. The thing is, if the IRL is to survive and grow again, this spec racing mentality has to go. We have all agreed on it. As you point out though, the money is the issue. I will just say this much: The spec racing formula has NOT enhanced the product on track. So for you to say opening up mods and development would favour Penske and Ganassi is one thing, but who is winning most of the races now anyhow? Same teams. See the problem? I do....the product is as dull as dish water on some circuits because the specs of the cars as they stand right now don't encourage passing, it creates a situation where no one can build up enough of a speed differential to get by. Dull product on the track is killing this series, and if the gimmicky push to pass was to really matter, I would love Honda to be giving guys an extra 100 hp for those 15 pushes. Anyone think that wouldn't change things?

Well we all agree that the racing, i.e., the on-track product stinks. It's dull, predictable, and only two teams are competitors for wins every weekend. Road and street courses have more competition for pole position and a few more teams that can put up a fight.

However, I don't think the dull racing is due to a spec formula as much as it is due to the formula itself. GP2 is a spec series yet they manage to have more teams and drivers win.

I'm not saying that the IRL should stay a spec series, but those who advocate "opening up the rules" to "open up the competition" are spending other people's money. Right now, IRL teams cannot afford to "open up their wallets."

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well we all agree that the racing, i.e., the on-track product stinks. It's dull, predictable, and only two teams are competitors for wins every weekend. Road and street courses have more competition for pole position and a few more teams that can put up a fight.

However, I don't think the dull racing is due to a spec formula as much as it is due to the formula itself. GP2 is a spec series yet they manage to have more teams and drivers win.

I'm not saying that the IRL should stay a spec series, but those who advocate "opening up the rules" to "open up the competition" are spending other people's money. Right now, IRL teams cannot afford to "open up their wallets."
Here is where you and I differ. You think a spec series like GP2 works. IT does work for the first few years while everyone is still learning the car and what they need to do. AFTER 7 years however, they have wrung out the last bits of speed out of this car for the most part. What is more, you say mods would favour the rich teams but who is winning now? The rich teams. What changing the car does is allow new ideas in, and not all of them cost money, and not all of them come from the top two teams. What is more, while the series is hamstrung for cash, they wont GET any more if there isn't a movement for change, and an appearance of competition. Right now....it is actually very competitive in that everyone has almost the same stuff and knows the same settings. Look closer, and it all comes down to turning and prep time and that favours the rich. Except no one is really THAT much faster than anyone else, and on some tracks....say Indy, it is a bear to get by anyone. So then Honda has to bring in PTP to help. Except, it is such a incermental extra, and used sparingly so basically, you have 15 attempts to really get by people, and even then, it is a casual pass.

The racing is dull because everyone is in the same box, with the same stuff, and even though Penske and Ganassi can tune and tweak things better, and have the better drivers, they cannot really even race each other in an entertaining fashion.

[e2mtt]

Great discussions. I have quite an essay in my head also, but I don't feel like writing it all right now.

Mark In O's points about spec chassis are spot on... everybody is even, & it takes a gigantic effort to get a very small gain. Only the very richest & best run teams will ever find that gain, and the small teams will never even accidentally have the fastest car for the weekend.

What makes Indycar even worse is the mandated spec is a dull, slow, downforce-heavy setup. (slow being relative... they are extremely fast, just slow compared to F1 & CART) To GP2's credit, their spec is rather racy, you get a lot of very close on-track action.

How much better would the show be if Indycar's current chassis spec had 100 more HP, another 100 in PTP, half the ground-effect downforce, & ran superspeedway wings everywhere?

[Jag_Warrior]

Here is where you and I differ. You think a spec series like GP2 works. IT does work for the first few years while everyone is still learning the car and what they need to do. AFTER 7 years however, they have wrung out the last bits of speed out of this car for the most part. What is more, you say mods would favour the rich teams but who is winning now? The rich teams. What changing the car does is allow new ideas in, and not all of them cost money, and not all of them come from the top two teams. What is more, while the series is hamstrung for cash, they wont GET any more if there isn't a movement for change, and an appearance of competition. Right now....it is actually very competitive in that everyone has almost the same stuff and knows the same settings. Look closer, and it all comes down to turning and prep time and that favours the rich. Except no one is really THAT much faster than anyone else, and on some tracks....say Indy, it is a bear to get by anyone. So then Honda has to bring in PTP to help. Except, it is such a incermental extra, and used sparingly so basically, you have 15 attempts to really get by people, and even then, it is a casual pass.

The racing is dull because everyone is in the same box, with the same stuff, and even though Penske and Ganassi can tune and tweak things better, and have the better drivers, they cannot really even race each other in an entertaining fashion.

But remember, in the time that the IRL has had its current chassis formula, F3000 became GP2, and GP2 has already had two chassis formulas, and working on a third right now. So 1 F3000, and soon to be 3 GP2 chassis: 4 in the time that the IRL has continued to hang onto these museum pieces.

In supposed "top tier" series, I'm not in favor of spec chassis either. But at the same time, you pointed it out yourself: "It does work for the first few years while everyone is still learning the car..." The GP2 formula works. There's passing. There's excitement. It tends not to be a procession, as The Danica claimed about road course racing. I'm getting ready to watch the last GP2 race on my DVR in a few minutes. I suspect that I'll see there what I seldom see in IRL races these days: drivers going balls to the wall and putting on a great show.

But like I said, I have no idea what the IRL could or should do at this point. And Penske knew for years when PM/Marlboro was going to exit. He couldn't have predicted this deep recession, but the point still remains that his is the most successful name in AOWR. Would he have had the same problem finding a primary for his NASCAR teams (minus Hornish)? I doubt it. Williams GP has already announced that it is on track to have sponsorship set for 2011. So a mid-pack F1 team, in an environment at least as bad as that here in the U.S., has already got 2011 set... but Mr. Indy Car might have to write Helio on the side of one of his cars? A successful businessman like Penske doesn't just get caught with his pants down like that.

So what's THE answer? :confused: Hey, they could try what is being suggested here: open up the rules and see what happens. I don't know for sure what the result would be. But I do know that they are running out of chances to get it right. National, local Indy 500 TV ratings take dive (http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2010/06/01/national-local-indy-500-tv-ratings-take-dive/PARAMS/post/20274) A 3.6 final???!!! :eek: As bad as I expected things to get years ago, I never thought I'd see the Indy 500 getting a 3.6 TV rating. Another drop like this next year, and the Indy 500 will be getting about what the Long Beach Grand Prix was getting in the 90's. If someone hasn't done it already, it is definitely time to hit the panic button.

[Lousada]

But remember, in the time that the IRL has had its current chassis formula, F3000 became GP2, and GP2 has already had two chassis formulas, and working on a third right now. So 1 F3000, and soon to be 3 GP2 chassis: 4 in the time that the IRL has continued to hang onto these museum pieces.

The Dallara's are literally museumpieces. Historic Openwheel racing has a timelimit of 10 years, and the current formula will be 10 years in 2012...

[00steven]

I think Dario will stay put for a couple years. Dixon won't leave, he's finished 2,1,2 in points the last 3 years. However, I do expect Graham Rahal to race a 3rd Ganassi entry. Briscoe is gone, Sam Hornish is not working in NASCAR and will be a nice replacement.

[Lousada]

I think comparing Indycar to a development series like GP2 is not fair. If Gp2 had teams like Penske and Ganassi that spent twice as much as all the rest and hire the best, most experienced drivers, then GP2 wouldn't be as spectacular as it is now.
In GP2 you see all ride-buyers and all young, talented and slightly reckless drivers. In Indycar the race between the ridebuyer teams is just as exciting as GP2 imo. But sadly you never see that because Penske and Ganassi and Danica take 90% of the airtime and all the glory.

[call_me_andrew]

IROC? Really? You want to compare a NASCAR side show that has spec and equally prepared cars as it's premise to Indy Car?

Really?

No, I want to compare a "NASCAR side show" to what you think IndyCar should be.

[Jag_Warrior]

I think comparing Indycar to a development series like GP2 is not fair. If Gp2 had teams like Penske and Ganassi that spent twice as much as all the rest and hire the best, most experienced drivers, then GP2 wouldn't be as spectacular as it is now.
In GP2 you see all ride-buyers and all young, talented and slightly reckless drivers. In Indycar the race between the ridebuyer teams is just as exciting as GP2 imo. But sadly you never see that because Penske and Ganassi and Danica take 90% of the airtime and all the glory.

I see what you mean. But ART is sort of the Penske/Ganassi/McLaren/Ferrari of GP2. They've won 3 of the past 5 GP2 championships, and tend to always run up front. And it's my understanding that they're looking at an F1 entry for next year. Even though the (top) ride buyers only hang around for a couple of years at the most, they tend to go with ART. And from the front of the GP2 grid to the rear, they all race like their lives depend on picking up even a single position. Once they get to F1, that "kill or be killed" mentality doesn't go away. Look at Alonso vs. Massa, Hamilton vs. Button, Rosberg vs. Schumacher and most especially, Vettel vs. Webber. :eek: All have taken their teammates to task. And they were competing against virtually identical (team) cars. And it used to be that way in AOWR. IMO, what made 1980's-90's CART races so exciting was the balls to the wall exploits of people like Paul Tracy, Mike Andretti, Danny Sullivan, Alex Zanardi, Greg Moore, Juan Montoya, et al... and even Robby Gordon (even though he didn't win much). See, we used to have guys who had the same ruthless win or wreck tryin' mentality as the GP2 (and F1) guys do. I don't think the problem is JUST down to the current chassis/engine formula. I think part of it is in the current "driver formula". A little less lovey-dovey and a little more with the dueling pistols would help, IMO. Put Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso in one of these spec cars and see how many problems they would have in getting by Danica's 14 foot wide sled on a road course. It might end in tears, but they certainly wouldn't just sit behind her and motor around in fuel conservation mode. She'd either get passed or she'd get wrecked. Why? Cause those guys don't race and hope to have friends at the end of the race. They see their friends at home, not on the track.

Just my 2c...

[Lousada]

I see what you mean. But ART is sort of the Penske/Ganassi/McLaren/Ferrari of GP2. They've won 3 of the past 5 GP2 championships, and tend to always run up front. And it's my understanding that they're looking at an F1 entry for next year. Even though the (top) ride buyers only hang around for a couple of years at the most, they tend to go with ART. And from the front of the GP2 grid to the rear, they all race like their lives depend on picking up even a single position. Once they get to F1, that "kill or be killed" mentality doesn't go away. Look at Alonso vs. Massa, Hamilton vs. Button, Rosberg vs. Schumacher and most especially, Vettel vs. Webber. :eek: All have taken their teammates to task. And they were competing against virtually identical (team) cars. And it used to be that way in AOWR. IMO, what made 1980's-90's CART races so exciting was the balls to the wall exploits of people like Paul Tracy, Mike Andretti, Danny Sullivan, Alex Zanardi, Greg Moore, Juan Montoya, et al... and even Robby Gordon (even though he didn't win much). See, we used to have guys who had the same ruthless win or wreck tryin' mentality as the GP2 (and F1) guys do. I don't think the problem is JUST down to the current chassis/engine formula. I think part of it is in the current "driver formula". A little less lovey-dovey and a little more with the dueling pistols would help, IMO. Put Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso in one of these spec cars and see how many problems they would have in getting by Danica's 14 foot wide sled on a road course. It might end in tears, but they certainly wouldn't just sit behind her and motor around in fuel conservation mode. She'd either get passed or she'd get wrecked. Why? Cause those guys don't race and hope to have friends at the end of the race. They see their friends at home, not on the track.

Just my 2c...

I agree with you. Although we do have drivers with a kill-or-be-killed mentality, Mario Moraes anyone :eek:

[Jag_Warrior]

Well yeah, that's true. I forgot about Mario. :D

[px400r]

No, I want to compare a "NASCAR side show" to what you think IndyCar should be.

Here's what I think Indy Car should be. It should be competitive, with multiple teams and drivers capable of winning. A driver running away from the field at the start of the race should be the exception. It should be economically feasible for new teams to enter the sport and for less established teams to mature and become competitive.

The on-track product should be the focus. Call it a sport- but in the end it is entertainment. How they get there- whether spec or open rules matters not. It's about what happens on the track.