Donkeys of the race

[PSfan]

Only because Vettel forgot how to complete a pass.

No because Webber decided that was a good time to do a "stubborn test"


WITH HIS TEAM-MATE!!!!

that part sinking in yet?

[SGWilko]

And had Hamilton got the double and got past Webber at the same time, then what? Does it make sense to have your faster driver held up and put in a position where he could be passed, when he could be sprinting out a workable lead incase rain where to come and cars would all pit en-mass, which never works out for the lead cars, specially the red bulls.

Lewis was with them all the time, it was gonna happen at some point - Vettel could have made an attempt to let Mark build a lead.

If not, and if Vettel was THAT much quicker - because he had more power, remember Webber had the legs of Vettel up to that point - why not just pass the OTHER side of Webber?

[SGWilko]

No because Webber decided that was a good time to do a "stubborn test"


WITH HIS TEAM-MATE!!!!

that part sinking in yet?

Since when are you not allowed to race your team mate?

Look at Alonso and Lewis, Brazil '07. Onlso had Lewis off the track.

[PSfan]

Lewis was with them all the time, it was gonna happen at some point - Vettel could have made an attempt to let Mark build a lead.

If not, and if Vettel was THAT much quicker - because he had more power, remember Webber had the legs of Vettel up to that point - why not just pass the OTHER side of Webber?

Red Bull claimed Vettel was faster during the previous 3 laps... Do we know that vettel hadn't sand bagged a little to give Webber a chance to build up his lead?

Vettel's onboard shows he looked outside before going inside, don't know if this was just a fake out, or if more thought was put into it, but conceivably Vettel could have chosen the inside to prevent Hamilton from following, and making it easier for Webber to defend 2nd going into the corner...

[SGWilko]

Red Bull claimed Vettel was faster during the previous 3 laps... Do we know that vettel hadn't sand bagged a little to give Webber a chance to build up his lead?

Vettel's onboard shows he looked outside before going inside, don't know if this was just a fake out, or if more thought was put into it, but conceivably Vettel could have chosen the inside to prevent Hamilton from following, and making it easier for Webber to defend 2nd going into the corner...

Lewis was not close enough to pass that lap IIRC, so scratch that theory.

[PSfan]

Since when are you not allowed to race your team mate?

Look at Alonso and Lewis, Brazil '07. Onlso had Lewis off the track.

What part off me agreeing with Mosley's suggestion that Webber could have tried to retake the lead later did you not understand? Obviously if I think its alright for Webber to try to pass Vettel (assuming in a safe and professional manner) then racing your team-mate is fine as long as its done right, going off-line to keep you team-mate in the dirt when he is clearly faster, and risking what eventually happened is clearly wrong.

[SGWilko]

What part off me agreeing with Mosley's suggestion that Webber could have tried to retake the lead later did you not understand? Obviously if I think its alright for Webber to try to pass Vettel (assuming in a safe and professional manner) then racing your team-mate is fine as long as its done right, going off-line to keep you team-mate in the dirt when he is clearly faster, and risking what eventually happened is clearly wrong.

It is for the guy overtaking to make a safe pass. Vettel chose the dirty side, Mark had already moved left - suggesting he would prefer Seb on the right.

Rather than try to re-take - which in fuel save mode is very hard I guess - just make it difficult but not impossible to overtake.

[PSfan]

Lewis was not close enough to pass that lap IIRC, so scratch that theory.

Going by the slow-mo youtube vid I would say yes Hamilton was close enough, and just so you don't have to search around for it I'll repost the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU

I believe Hamilton is close enough there even though he is probably being a little tentative while watching the red bulls dice... Had Vettel went outside, Hamilton would have gotten a good tow/pull and would have easily gotten Webber at the same corner.

[SGWilko]

Going by the slow-mo youtube vid I would say yes Hamilton was close enough, and just so you don't have to search around for it I'll repost the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU

I believe Hamilton is close enough there even though he is probably being a little tentative while watching the red bulls dice... Had Vettel went outside, Hamilton would have gotten a good tow/pull and would have easily gotten Webber at the same corner.

Thanks for re-posting. I have to disagree about Lewis. If he was close to Seb, he would have got a double tow from both Bulls, but he is just too far back.

[PSfan]

Thanks for re-posting. I have to disagree about Lewis. If he was close to Seb, he would have got a double tow from both Bulls, but he is just too far back.

To take advantage off the "double tow" Hamilton would have had to follow Webber off the racing line, which he choose to take the safe route and see what would unfold instead, Had Vettel went outside, then Hamilton could have used the tow...

[airshifter]

To take advantage off the "double tow" Hamilton would have had to follow Webber off the racing line, which he choose to take the safe route and see what would unfold instead, Had Vettel went outside, then Hamilton could have used the tow...

And if pigs had wings they could fly too.

Vettel made the pass on the bad side of the track, and then got upset when his team mate didn't simply yeild since he couldn't make the pass on his own.

Vettel punked himself, and Webber was lucky to not be taken out of the race by his idiot team mate.

[PSfan]

And if pigs had wings they could fly too.

Vettel made the pass on the bad side of the track, and then got upset when his team mate didn't simply yeild since he couldn't make the pass on his own.

Vettel punked himself, and Webber was lucky to not be taken out of the race by his idiot team mate.

What does any of that have anything to do with my theory that Hamilton would have been able to follow Vettel past Webber had he took the outside line?

I would have thought I gave plenty of more posts you could have quoted that might actually be related to your rant, but come on...

and idiot team mate: pardon me while a quote the real idiot in this tussle:

"I obviously wasn't totally happy with the situation because obviously he was coming down the inside, and I thought that at that stage I was pretty much not giving the lead up but it was pretty much his corner, well, not his corner but his situation because he was on the inside, but I just stayed on the inside, tight, to make sure that he was still staying on the dirty stuff"

That combined with the news that Webber had to turn his fuel down, combined with the supposed undelivered message to actually let Seb by, and Webber looks like a spoiled brat not wanting to give up his toy when his parents told him to put it away for supper. From my perspective it looks more like Webber taking the "If I can't win this race, Neither will Vettel" stance.

[markabilly]

Thats not something I feel happened if I'm honest. I've watched every replay in existance now or so it feels, and from a frontal shot of the incident there is a clear gap and it looks very much like Vettel's change in direction caused the impact. If you feel differently we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. This replay clip shows the rapid direction change and he appears to turn into Mark and Vettel's right rear seems to make contact with the side pod area of Marks car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C7Fh7AHQwQ&feature=fvst

From looking at the design of the RB6, the side pod has a very sharp lip which is most likely the cause of shredding Vettel's tyre.

that video shows nothing and proves nothing.

you guys are like a broken record trying over and over to defend Chopper.

what that video shows is the effect of the wheels touching.

Geaas

In the screen shots i posted, FROM THE ON BOARD CAMERA OF MARKS CAR, the initial contact is not even a complete overlap of tires and shows how the CENTER of webber's tire caught the edge of vettels tire and caused that tire to come off the rim and then turn the car towards Mark

There is no sidepod contact. :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

what is more is that webber stopped moving to the right and moved the steering ever so slightly, to put his car on the collision path--INSTEAD OF CONTINUING TO MOVE TO THE RIGHT.

And bagwell makes an interesting point about webber lifting off or maybe hitting the brakes, explaining the nature of the contact and crash

talk about blind loyalty......

[CNR]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/f1-warring-red-bull-pair-the-victims-of-mismanagement-2209826.html



Webber, as befits a tough Aussie who is also a leading member of the Grand Prix Driver's Association (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Grand+Prix+Driver's+Association) and, as such, a prominent campaigner for safe racing, gave Vettel the absolute minimum amount of room and no more. He was tough but entirely fair.

[CNR]

http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-137461.html

Hamilton Told Button Would Not Pass Him At Turkey (http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=137461&newlang=&topic=8&catid=0)‎

[CNR]

you do not need to put up with posts from markabilly just put him on your Ignore list

goto Miscellaneous
Buddy / Ignore Lists (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/profile.php?do=editlist)
Add New User to List
add markabilly
save list

[Mia 01]

The team told Seb that he should overtake the slower Mark. He tried but Mark squized him off very brutal. The team knowed what happened and blamed Mark. Marks share are low now very low. There will be a bill to pay.

[Ranger]

you do not need to put up with posts from markabilly just put him on your Ignore list

goto Miscellaneous
Buddy / Ignore Lists (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/profile.php?do=editlist)
Add New User to List
add markabilly
save list

With all due respect you need to grow up.

I don't agree with his opinion but it just that - an opinion. If you let forumer's opinions wind you up then you probably shouldn't be on an internet forum in the first place.

Discuss the post, not the poster. :bounce:

[airshifter]

What does any of that have anything to do with my theory that Hamilton would have been able to follow Vettel past Webber had he took the outside line?

I would have thought I gave plenty of more posts you could have quoted that might actually be related to your rant, but come on...

and idiot team mate: pardon me while a quote the real idiot in this tussle:

"I obviously wasn't totally happy with the situation because obviously he was coming down the inside, and I thought that at that stage I was pretty much not giving the lead up but it was pretty much his corner, well, not his corner but his situation because he was on the inside, but I just stayed on the inside, tight, to make sure that he was still staying on the dirty stuff"

That combined with the news that Webber had to turn his fuel down, combined with the supposed undelivered message to actually let Seb by, and Webber looks like a spoiled brat not wanting to give up his toy when his parents told him to put it away for supper. From my perspective it looks more like Webber taking the "If I can't win this race, Neither will Vettel" stance.

What does it have to do with Hamilton getting past? The fact that your entire theory is based on nothing other than speculation. If Webber moved off the racing line and IF Hamilton followed him. Of course that once again assumes that Webber would move off of the racing line to let the "faster" Vettel through.

We could speculate a thousand scenarios but the reality is that team orders are not allowed, and that Vettel caused the contact, which is a breach of sporting regs that could have been investigated by the stewards. I'll ask you the same question as others. What regulation did Webber violate?

[SGWilko]

that video shows nothing and proves nothing.

you guys are like a broken record trying over and over to defend Chopper.

what that video shows is the effect of the wheels touching.

Geaas

In the screen shots i posted, FROM THE ON BOARD CAMERA OF MARKS CAR, the initial contact is not even a complete overlap of tires and shows how the CENTER of webber's tire caught the edge of vettels tire and caused that tire to come off the rim and then turn the car towards Mark

There is no sidepod contact. :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

what is more is that webber stopped moving to the right and moved the steering ever so slightly, to put his car on the collision path--INSTEAD OF CONTINUING TO MOVE TO THE RIGHT.

And bagwell makes an interesting point about webber lifting off or maybe hitting the brakes, explaining the nature of the contact and crash

talk about blind loyalty......

Mumbler!

[pino]

you do not need to put up with posts from markabilly just put him on your Ignore list

goto Miscellaneous
Buddy / Ignore Lists (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/profile.php?do=editlist)
Add New User to List
add markabilly
save list


Do yourself a favour: go and read my stucky thread on top page once again, because your next personal comments will cost you 2 weeks ban !

[CNR]

Do yourself a favour: go and read my stucky thread on top page once again, because your next personal comments will cost you 2 weeks ban !

look i do not wont to read what he post so i put him on the Ignore Lists
you need to read what he has posted
time to take a holiday anyway

[markabilly]

look i do not wont to read what he post so i put him on the Ignore Lists
yo
That is okay with me

Just means there will be one less poster out of 500 around here, calling me a cheap boozing idiot, like I did not already know that already :D

but i do not want you taking any vacations because of your irritation with me, as i prefer people with strong hard nosed opinions who let it all rip out----rational or otherwise ........besides Webber might again stomp the field next sunday, and you will lose the chance to broadcast your pleasure

[pino]

Back to the topic...thank you !

[PSfan]

What does it have to do with Hamilton getting past? The fact that your entire theory is based on nothing other than speculation. If Webber moved off the racing line and IF Hamilton followed him. Of course that once again assumes that Webber would move off of the racing line to let the "faster" Vettel through.

We could speculate a thousand scenarios but the reality is that team orders are not allowed, and that Vettel caused the contact, which is a breach of sporting regs that could have been investigated by the stewards. I'll ask you the same question as others. What regulation did Webber violate?

Are you incapable of commenting on whatever post you quote? thats 2 for 2 now :cheese:

And I am glad you are finally getting around to commenting on my first post you quoted, but you obviously didn't understand a word of it, "If Webber moved off the racing line" ?!?! There was no IF, Webber moved off the racing line to force Vettel on the dirtiest part of the track. So do you really find issue in my theory why Hamilton didn't follow?!?!

And according to Mosley (who was in charge of the FIA when the "Team orders" rules was created incase you forgot that) had basically said that Red Bull could have radio'd Webber and told him "Get out of the f'n way you turtle, you are f'n up Vettels race" and it wouldn't be illegal team orders...

And lastly you claim Vettel caused the contact, Well I say Webber caused an avoidable accident...

[PSfan]

Oh and interesting news coming out from red bull:

Red Bull Drivers Must Let Each Other Pass - Marko: In the future, Red Bull drivers Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel will not prevent the fastest RB6 from overtaking.

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-grand-prix-news-briefs54/

geez wonder who that is directed at....

[truefan72]

Oh and interesting news coming out from red bull:

Red Bull Drivers Must Let Each Other Pass - Marko: In the future, Red Bull drivers Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel will not prevent the fastest RB6 from overtaking.

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-grand-prix-news-briefs54/

geez wonder who that is directed at....

that statement only confirms the stupidity of marko who is still in a bubble about the situation.

Team asked webber to save fuel, told Vettel to push, Horner then went personally to Webber's race engineer and told him to tell webber to let Vettel through, The race engineer to his credit did no such thing, then webber comes on the radio and asked the team what is going on with vettel's engine map because he doesn't seem to be on the same strategy (vis a vis he was told to get slower and vettel was told to push)

Vettel then tries to pass, webber holds his line, vettel turns into webber and causes both to crash, vettel makes crazy signs to the whole world to see, comes over to the team, hugs all around. Webber and his engineer get ripped to shreds in a personal meeting with marko and horner, and both issue damming statements on webber, before being forced to retract their foolish statements later ...

...and out of all this you seem incapable of issuing your own mia culpa on the matter when the team has? priceless

[PSfan]

that statement only confirms the stupidity of marko who is still in a bubble about the situation.

Team asked webber to save fuel, told Vettel to push, Horner then went personally to Webber's race engineer and told him to tell webber to let Vettel through, The race engineer to his credit did no such thing, then webber comes on the radio and asked the team what is going on with vettel's engine map because he doesn't seem to be on the same strategy (vis a vis he was told to get slower and vettel was told to push)

Vettel then tries to pass, webber holds his line, vettel turns into webber and causes both to crash, vettel makes crazy signs to the whole world to see, comes over to the team, hugs all around. Webber and his engineer get ripped to shreds in a personal meeting with marko and horner, and both issue damming statements on webber, before being forced to retract their foolish statements later ...

...and out of all this you seem incapable of issuing your own mia culpa on the matter when the team has? priceless

Hay, thanks for the recap, your order of events might be off a little, but I do appreciate the effort

Funny how its alright for Webber to ask for Vettel to back off, but not alright for the team to ask Webber to let Vettel by. Looks kinda the same to me (except Red Bull racing pays Webber to drive...)

Lets give the Webbers engineer credit for not giving Webber the option to follow the teams orders. Heck 3rd is a much better result the 2nd behind Vettel anyways!!!

Unlike Red Bull racing, I'm not trying to promote energy drinks, or sell anything. So I can be steadfast in my opinions.

[truefan72]

Hay, thanks for the recap, your order of events might be off a little, but I do appreciate the effort

like what?


Funny how its alright for Webber to ask for Vettel to back off, but not alright for the team to ask Webber to let Vettel by. Looks kinda the same to me (except Red Bull racing pays Webber to drive...) as has been cleared by the team, horner, the radio feeds and the media. Webber did not ask vettel to back off, but asked why he was not on the same engine map as he was if they were both supposed to be saving fuel.


Lets give the Webbers engineer credit for not giving Webber the option to follow the teams orders. Heck 3rd is a much better result the 2nd behind Vettel anyways!!!

as you know team orders are illegal and what you are blatantly advocating is against the rules, wich is all benign compared to the fact that vettel turned into webber causing the accident.


Unlike Red Bull racing, I'm not trying to promote energy drinks, or sell anything. So I can be steadfast in my opinions.
you are most certainly entitled to your opinions. and they are just that, opinions. Now if you do come on a forum and state those opinions, then expect them to be questioned and challenged. But in this case, it is RBR themselves refuting and correcting and admitting their own erroneous assertions regarding the matter and it is strange to see you still vehemently hanging on to yours in contrast to the now known facts. Either you really like vettel or really dislike Webber which seems to be driving your thought process.

But it 's time for me to move on to Canada. So I will leave you to your opinions and move on.

Cheers ;)

[CNR]

That is okay with me

Just means there will be one less poster out of 500 around here, calling me a cheap boozing idiot, like I did not already know that already :D

but i do not want you taking any vacations because of your irritation with me, as i prefer people with strong hard nosed opinions who let it all rip out----rational or otherwise ........besides Webber might again stomp the field next sunday, and you will lose the chance to broadcast your pleasure

before the last 3 races i was hoping that Vettel would win the championship
this year to take youngest away from lewis

[Valve Bounce]

"Vettel confirmed for the first time that he had indeed turned right into Webber's path - but said he had done so because he believed he had the right to as the car in front."http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84212

So this will finally put an end to all the BS from Markabilly. Others might feel deflated at their inflammatory jibes at Mark.
__________________

[Valve Bounce]

Did you not read the news yesterday? Its been revealed Webber never actually asked for Vettel to be told to back off. He asked a question and that question was "is Seb using the same engine setting's as me, because he seems faster"... Thats abit different to asking for him to back off wouldn't you agree? :)

Ah! yes!! and it turns out that Horner instructed Mark's race engineer to tell Mark Webber to let Vettel pass, but his race engineer ignored it. Naughty! naughty!!

[Instant Mash]

Should make for an interesting Canadian GP.

[Dave B]

So, from various horses' mouths:


Mark did not receive an instruction to let Vettel pass.



Vettel admits that he turned into Webber (although makes clear it wasn't deliberate) [Link] (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84212)



Horner admits it was a mistake to blame Webber [Link] (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84256)
I hope those who blamed Webber will now either admit they were wrong to do so, or STFU, and look forward to a cracking race in Canada.

[Valve Bounce]

So, from various horses' mouths:


Mark did not receive an instruction to let Vettel pass.



Vettel admits that he turned into Webber (although makes clear it wasn't deliberate) [Link] (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84212)



Horner admits it was a mistake to blame Webber [Link] (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84256)
I hope those who blamed Webber will now either admit they were wrong to do so, or STFU, and look forward to a cracking race in Canada.

They will admit nothing. It would mean severe loss of face in this forum. They will just troll on with whatever BS that they can that baffles the truth with BS.

[Dave B]

Would anybody object if I asked for this thread to be closed, as the conversation is being duplicated on the "Who was at fault" thread? No point having 2 threads discussing the same thing. :)

[markabilly]

"Vettel confirmed for the first time that he had indeed turned right into Webber's path - but said he had done so because he believed he had the right to as the car in front."http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84212

So this will finally put an end to all the BS from Markabilly. Others might feel deflated at their inflammatory jibes at Mark.
__________________



What ??? That you take an incomplete quote out of context and misconstrue it so as to screw it around to support your view of the chopper??? :crazy:
I can not believe you guys are still trying to justify what happenned and feel the need to provide as many false alibis as possible

:rotflmao:

The quote was (and as I have already said repeatedly about Vettel's actions),

"I had already passed Mark and then obviously tried to come slowly back to the right. At that time I was the leading car so usually then the leader dictates when to go. All of a sudden we made contact and that was the end of the race for me."

I looked at another video that shows the cars much earlier and what it shows was an illegal block by Webber. (wish I could link it, but f1 managment quickly strikes again...)

Cars are allowed one move:

Vettel comes up and starts to go to webber's right, and Webber moves over to block him, clearly.

So Vettel goes to the left, and Chopper again changes direction to go left to block him--Illegal-naughty, naughty, chopper-blocker

But chopper is slow, so Vettel manages to get his front wheel besides chopper and chopper stops moving into vettel and then starts moving slowly over to the right--even though vettel's left wheels are on the line from having to move over to avoid contact.

Vettel is then clearly in the lead....as his nose is in front....I suppose all of you wish to misconstrue what "in the lead" means to mean that your whole car must be in completly in front of another car to be "leading", as though one has never heard the terms "leading by a nose" :rolleyes:

In any event Chopper moves over to give Sebo room as though moving over for the next corner, and vettel starts to also "Slowly" move to the right.
Chopper stops moving, and then even gives the steering a little jink to move over to the car slightly to the left right at point of contact, even though vettel is clearly ahead

and Webber is the one with the perfect view of what is getting ready to happen unlike vettel whose in a different position

Now had Chopper had continued his move to the right or even more, given the steering a little jink, to move the car over to the right to make room for Vettel and the accident still happenned, my opinion of fault would change and I would say, hey Vettel, your fault.....

but no, ole chopper just can not stand the thought of little sebo beating his scrawny butt, so he has to go back to doing what choppers do best: chop and block



and unlike the many around here, could care less what the so-called "majority" else thinks, as i do not need a poll of others to determine what to think :rolleyes:







Did you not read the news yesterday? Its been revealed Webber never actually asked for Vettel to be told to back off. He asked a question and that question was "is Seb using the same engine setting's as me, because he seems faster"... Thats abit different to asking for him to back off wouldn't you agree?
I agree that it means nothing.......except chopper wants to keep vettel behind him......maybe we need another poll on that quote, so you guys will have some alleged "foundation" to argue to the contrary

[markabilly]

Would anybody object if I asked for this thread to be closed, as the conversation is being duplicated on the "Who was at fault" thread? No point having 2 threads discussing the same thing. :)
NO, because we have more kool aid to drink, and not only that, we all need the all important poll to tell us what to think....otherwise we have no support for justifying what webber did.......so if anything, close the other thread :vader:

[markabilly]

They will admit nothing. It would mean severe loss of face in this forum. They will just troll on with whatever BS that they can that baffles the truth with BS.
Oh, my, another personal attack??

As they say in law, when the law is against you, argue the facts,
when the facts are against you, argue the law,
and when the facts and law are against you,
call the other side....a troll that baffles the truth with BS

[CNR]

NO, because we have more kool aid to drink, and not only that, we all need the all important poll to tell us what to think....otherwise we have no support for justifying what webber did.......so if anything, close the other thread :vader:
:grenade: :arrows: :?: :rotate:

[Valve Bounce]

What ??? That you take an incomplete quote out of context and misconstrue it so as to screw it around to support your view of the chopper??? :crazy:
I can not believe you guys are still trying to justify what happenned and feel the need to provide as many false alibis as possible

:rotflmao:

The quote was (and as I have already said repeatedly about Vettel's actions),

"I had already passed Mark and then obviously tried to come slowly back to the right. At that time I was the leading car so usually then the leader dictates when to go. All of a sudden we made contact and that was the end of the race for me."

I looked at another video that shows the cars much earlier and what it shows was an illegal block by Webber. (wish I could link it, but f1 managment quickly strikes again...)

Cars are allowed one move:

Vettel comes up and starts to go to webber's right, and Webber moves over to block him, clearly.

So Vettel goes to the left, and Chopper again changes direction to go left to block him--Illegal-naughty, naughty, chopper-blocker

But chopper is slow, so Vettel manages to get his front wheel besides chopper and chopper stops moving into vettel and then starts moving slowly over to the right--even though vettel's left wheels are on the line from having to move over to avoid contact.

Vettel is then clearly in the lead....as his nose is in front....I suppose all of you wish to misconstrue what "in the lead" means to mean that your whole car must be in completly in front of another car to be "leading", as though one has never heard the terms "leading by a nose" :rolleyes:

In any event Chopper moves over to give Sebo room as though moving over for the next corner, and vettel starts to also "Slowly" move to the right.
Chopper stops moving, and then even gives the steering a little jink to move over to the car slightly to the left right at point of contact, even though vettel is clearly ahead

and Webber is the one with the perfect view of what is getting ready to happen unlike vettel whose in a different position

Now had Chopper had continued his move to the right or even more, given the steering a little jink, to move the car over to the right to make room for Vettel and the accident still happenned, my opinion of fault would change and I would say, hey Vettel, your fault.....

but no, ole chopper just can not stand the thought of little sebo beating his scrawny butt, so he has to go back to doing what choppers do best: chop and block



and unlike the many around here, could care less what the so-called "majority" else thinks, as i do not need a poll of others to determine what to think :rolleyes:







I agree that it means nothing.......except chopper wants to keep vettel behind him......maybe we need another poll on that quote, so you guys will have some alleged "foundation" to argue to the contrary


I read the first sentence of your post and I really can't bother to read the rest of your tripe. Just suck up the tripe and choke, fella!!

[Valve Bounce]

Oh, my, another personal attack??

As they say in law, when the law is against you, argue the facts,
when the facts are against you, argue the law,
and when the facts and law are against you,
call the other side....a troll that baffles the truth with BS

Please tell me which two words of my post constitutes a personal attack.

[SGWilko]

What ??? That you take an incomplete quote out of context and misconstrue it so as to screw it around to support your view of the chopper??? :crazy:
I can not believe you guys are still trying to justify what happenned and feel the need to provide as many false alibis as possible

:rotflmao:

The quote was (and as I have already said repeatedly about Vettel's actions),

"I had already passed Mark and then obviously tried to come slowly back to the right. At that time I was the leading car so usually then the leader dictates when to go. All of a sudden we made contact and that was the end of the race for me."

I looked at another video that shows the cars much earlier and what it shows was an illegal block by Webber. (wish I could link it, but f1 managment quickly strikes again...)

Cars are allowed one move:

Vettel comes up and starts to go to webber's right, and Webber moves over to block him, clearly.

So Vettel goes to the left, and Chopper again changes direction to go left to block him--Illegal-naughty, naughty, chopper-blocker

But chopper is slow, so Vettel manages to get his front wheel besides chopper and chopper stops moving into vettel and then starts moving slowly over to the right--even though vettel's left wheels are on the line from having to move over to avoid contact.

Vettel is then clearly in the lead....as his nose is in front....I suppose all of you wish to misconstrue what "in the lead" means to mean that your whole car must be in completly in front of another car to be "leading", as though one has never heard the terms "leading by a nose" :rolleyes:

In any event Chopper moves over to give Sebo room as though moving over for the next corner, and vettel starts to also "Slowly" move to the right.
Chopper stops moving, and then even gives the steering a little jink to move over to the car slightly to the left right at point of contact, even though vettel is clearly ahead

and Webber is the one with the perfect view of what is getting ready to happen unlike vettel whose in a different position

Now had Chopper had continued his move to the right or even more, given the steering a little jink, to move the car over to the right to make room for Vettel and the accident still happenned, my opinion of fault would change and I would say, hey Vettel, your fault.....

but no, ole chopper just can not stand the thought of little sebo beating his scrawny butt, so he has to go back to doing what choppers do best: chop and block



and unlike the many around here, could care less what the so-called "majority" else thinks, as i do not need a poll of others to determine what to think :rolleyes:







I agree that it means nothing.......except chopper wants to keep vettel behind him......maybe we need another poll on that quote, so you guys will have some alleged "foundation" to argue to the contrary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKFGREngKC0

[markabilly]

I read the first sentence of your post and I really can't bother to read the rest of your tripe. Just suck up the tripe and choke, fella!!



Please tell me which two words of my post constitutes a personal attack.

I would....but i am too busy choking.... :p :

[Retro Formula 1]

I don't think there's any real point trying to reason with Markability on this one as he's determined not to change his mind.

At least Horner has conceded that it was not Marks fault but a racing incident. He couldn't go all the way and admit what most other people think is bloody obvious but at least they have admitted that It wasn't Webbers fault.

Markability obviously knows better.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84256



"I think it was a mistake - if blame was adjudged to have been placed on Mark - because I think it was a racing incident," said Horner in a BBC interview.
"Certainly the view that I took was that the drivers should have given each other more room, that they should as team-mates have more respect for each other.
"The problem is in the heat of the moment immediately after the event, a couple of opinions were made without sight of all of the facts, and that's subsequently been dealt with.


End of the story really. On to Canada and the next big silly arguement I suppose.

[Dave B]

I don't think there's any real point trying to reason with Markability on this one as he's determined not to change his mind.

At least Horner has conceded that it was not Marks fault but a racing incident. He couldn't go all the way and admit what most other people think is bloody obvious but at least they have admitted that It wasn't Webbers fault.

Markability obviously knows better.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84256




End of the story really. On to Canada and the next big silly arguement I suppose.

Aye. As I posted earlier, we've now heard from various horses' mouths (including Horner and Vettel) that this wasn't Webber's fault. To continue holding a contrary stance in the face of clear evidence is baffling in extreme.

To that end, I'm bowing out of this discussion (and t'other thread) unless new evidence presents itself. There's no point debating with people who refuse to accept facts, so I shan't waste my time.

:wave:

[SGWilko]

On to Canada and the next big silly arguement I suppose.

OK, I'll start with.....

Canada should become part of the USA. Discuss. :D

[Retro Formula 1]

OK, I'll start with.....

Canada should become part of the USA. Discuss. :D

Now come on Wilko. I'm no great fan of the good 'ole "US of A" but what have they done to deserve that????

Can't we just ship the French over there instead :D

[pino]

Let's continue this here :

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138526