Ross Brawn on Overtaking

[ST205GT4]

Was reading the official F1 site earlier today and stumbled across this from Ross Brawn.


I think we’ve got to be careful not to go too far. Formula One has a spirit, has a character, has a DNA that we don’t want to spoil. I find basketball a little bit difficult to follow when they’re scoring 90 points and football with one or two goals is exciting – for me. I think motor racing, with one or two great overtaking manoeuvres per race, is what we want.

Can't say I agree with his opinion. I want to see much more than one or two overtaking manoeuvres in a race. Thoughts?

To be completely honest I find it a bit discouraging to hear something like this from someone with such a big influence on the direction of the sport.

[Koz]

Yeah... I agree with Brawn... Let's just have a quali and end it at that, or better yet, let's have F1 Drag races! Makes racing much more exciting, don't it?

[ShiftingGears]

Was reading the official F1 site earlier today and stumbled across this from Ross Brawn.



Can't say I agree with his opinion. I want to see much more than one or two overtaking manoeuvres in a race. Thoughts?

He did say 'great' overtaking moves. Not every pass is great.

[Bobby_Hamlin]

It's hard to imagine a situation in F1 where there could be enough overtakes to compare it to points scoring in basketball. Unless of course they decide to race on an oval with a Hanford-wing type device.

[F1boat]

Was reading the official F1 site earlier today and stumbled across this from Ross Brawn.



Can't say I agree with his opinion. I want to see much more than one or two overtaking manoeuvres in a race. Thoughts?

To be completely honest I find it a bit discouraging to hear something like this from someone with such a big influence on the direction of the sport.

I agree with Ross completely.

[ST205GT4]

Each to their own I guess. I'd rather see much more overtaking amongst the front of the field. As much as I'm enjoying the current Webber purple run, it hasn't been the most exciting racing.

A lot of people on this forum were raving about how good this year had been after the first few races. Why? Because there was so much overtaking caused by the wet weather.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

The basketball analogy is good, the most pointless races I ever saw were the Handford device CART parades at Michigan. However, I don't think F1's current catenaccio if is great, either. We'd need something in the middle. Hockey, anyone?

[ioan]

The basketball analogy is good, the most pointless races I ever saw were the Handford device CART parades at Michigan. However, I don't think F1's current catenaccio if is great, either. We'd need something in the middle. Hockey, anyone?

There's destruction derby for hockey equivalent.

[ioan]

I fully agree with Brawn, F1 has to stick to it's 'DNA' not trying to become another pointless overtaking show.

[Bobby_Hamlin]

It depends whether you're talking about purely making overtaking more possible or somehow artificially creating lots of overtaking.

For example, it doesn't matter whether overtaking is easier if the quickest car qualifies on pole and then drives away from the field - that's just motor racing.

On the other hand - when a car can be catching another by nearly 2 seconds a lap and then hit the 'brick wall' of the dirty air and make no more progress - that's something that needs addressing in my opinion.

[ShiftingGears]

It depends whether you're talking about purely making overtaking more possible or somehow artificially creating lots of overtaking.

For example, it doesn't matter whether overtaking is easier if the quickest car qualifies on pole and then drives away from the field - that's just motor racing.

On the other hand - when a car can be catching another by nearly 2 seconds a lap and then hit the 'brick wall' of the dirty air and make no more progress - that's something that needs addressing in my opinion.

I concur.

What I would also like to see is a system which removes the safety car from races. It only artificially bunches the field back up and allows drivers to end up in positions they don't deserve, and inevitably causes more accidents due to close proximity of the vehicles.

Safety car periods breed safety car periods.

[fandango]

.......when a car can be catching another by nearly 2 seconds a lap and then hit the 'brick wall' of the dirty air and make no more progress - that's something that needs addressing in my opinion.

Excellent point. The solution is simple: Every car should have a wind tunnel test where it's illegal to dirty the following air by more than a certain limit (which would be defined as a percentage of lost downforce).

[steveaki13]

It depends whether you're talking about purely making overtaking more possible or somehow artificially creating lots of overtaking.

For example, it doesn't matter whether overtaking is easier if the quickest car qualifies on pole and then drives away from the field - that's just motor racing.

On the other hand - when a car can be catching another by nearly 2 seconds a lap and then hit the 'brick wall' of the dirty air and make no more progress - that's something that needs addressing in my opinion.

:up:

Spot On

[Allyc85]

It depends whether you're talking about purely making overtaking more possible or somehow artificially creating lots of overtaking.

For example, it doesn't matter whether overtaking is easier if the quickest car qualifies on pole and then drives away from the field - that's just motor racing.

On the other hand - when a car can be catching another by nearly 2 seconds a lap and then hit the 'brick wall' of the dirty air and make no more progress - that's something that needs addressing in my opinion.

Agreed with that :)

I also agree with Ross brawn that we dont want it to easy as right now it does make very move so much more exciting when it comes off.

[Chaparral66]

It depends whether you're talking about purely making overtaking more possible or somehow artificially creating lots of overtaking.

For example, it doesn't matter whether overtaking is easier if the quickest car qualifies on pole and then drives away from the field - that's just motor racing.

On the other hand - when a car can be catching another by nearly 2 seconds a lap and then hit the 'brick wall' of the dirty air and make no more progress - that's something that needs addressing in my opinion.

I agree for the most part. I don't want a situation that creates artificial passing (if some of you think that's what the Handford Device did in CART, that's not quite accurate). However, the way it is in F1 now, there's hardly any suspense to it (though that was not the case in Turkey, much to my pleasant surprise), it's like whoever gets pole will probably win and any passing is mostly done in the pits.

Well, that is the pits.

I want to see competition on the racetrack, battles for positions, not forgone conclusions. F1 is supposed to be the cream of the crop, and no, it's not supposed to be easy.

It's not supposed to be predictable, either.

[Jag_Warrior]

I concur.

What I would also like to see is a system which removes the safety car from races. It only artificially bunches the field back up and allows drivers to end up in positions they don't deserve, and inevitably causes more accidents due to close proximity of the vehicles.

Safety car periods breed safety car periods.

Yes, but don't you think that most of the time we see a safety car, it probably needs to be out there? I mean, compared to American motorsports, I think F1 does a very good job of deploying the safety car only when absolutely necessary. In NASCAR they throw a yellow (and even have "competition" yellows) for unseen debris and hotdog wrappers on the track. The IRL throws a full course yellow and deploys a pace car, where F1 would have a local yellow, because they're apparently too broke to hire cranes to snag & bag wrecked cars off line.

Since I'd put emphasis on the "great" in Brawn's response, I'd have to agree with him. One or two great passes are memorable. Twenty or thirty meaningless, drafting passes are not.

Just my 2 cents...

[UltimateDanGTR]

It depends whether you're talking about purely making overtaking more possible or somehow artificially creating lots of overtaking.

For example, it doesn't matter whether overtaking is easier if the quickest car qualifies on pole and then drives away from the field - that's just motor racing.

On the other hand - when a car can be catching another by nearly 2 seconds a lap and then hit the 'brick wall' of the dirty air and make no more progress - that's something that needs addressing in my opinion.

:up:

perfectly summed up.

[52Paddy]

Overtaking should come naturally within the races structure. If there is a lack of overtaking, it is very important to pinpoint the definite area where the problem lies. It's very clear that the difficulty with closing a gap in dirty air poses the biggest threat to overtaking, or even creating an overtaking opportunity for yourself. But making new regulations, dicing around current ones, without actually focusing on the biggest hindrance, just wastes time, money and confuses/irritates fans, drivers and team personnel. That said, the dirty air flaw doesn't seem to be as bad as it was in the past.

However, taking that out of the equation, I don't believe that there is any other serious flaws regarding overtaking in the sport currently. And this year, I must say, I've enjoyed the increase in on-track racing which I don't for one minute put down to some wet or damp conditions we have experienced. We have had some absolutely stupid moves by a number of drivers this season and, while this could be argued to be careless driving as opposed to skilled or professional, it is creating more spectacle and entertainment.

Interesting point about the safety car too. I, for one, hate the field being bunched up. Safety is a very important element of the sport, of course. But, remembering that up to the early 1990s some cars were even left road-side for the remaining race distance after retiring, how essential are the safety car periods we have endured in recent years? If a car stops on track, but off the racing line, then the only threat that it really poses is to another which is badly off the racing line, with the possibility of hitting the stricken car. I think that leaving cars abandoned road-side (perhaps only in slow areas of the course and when enough racing line is left) creates interesting changes to the approach of lapping the track during a race. Though that idea is quite far-fetched in many respects I know, I think it could be done safely and improve the races structure since there would be no safety car to deal with. Though, obviously, in cases where the racing line and driver safety is at risk, I do agree that the safety car is a welcome addition to the race.

[slorydn1]

It depends whether you're talking about purely making overtaking more possible or somehow artificially creating lots of overtaking.

For example, it doesn't matter whether overtaking is easier if the quickest car qualifies on pole and then drives away from the field - that's just motor racing.

On the other hand - when a car can be catching another by nearly 2 seconds a lap and then hit the 'brick wall' of the dirty air and make no more progress - that's something that needs addressing in my opinion.

Well said :up:

Hey I have an idea....lets invert the field. The pole sitter starts p24, and last place on the pole! That would surely increase passing, LOL :D :p ;)

[wmcot]

All we need is one team to figure out a way to run well in another car's "dirty air" and you'll hear the biggest outcry of cheating on this forum - until everyone else copies it, of course.

[Sonic]

Ross is on the money here.

For me a good race involves great racing. That does not automatically equal overtaking in my mind. For example I thought Turkey was excellent; tense, nip and tuck with a few brilliant passes thrown in for good measure. We all enjoy overtaking, and whilst it needs to be easier to chase we don't want to be watching Moto 125cc!

From my own personal experience the two races I would call my "best", one involved 15 passes and the other none at all.

[wedge]

Ross is on the money here.

For me a good race involves great racing. That does not automatically equal overtaking in my mind. For example I thought Turkey was excellent; tense, nip and tuck with a few brilliant passes thrown in for good measure. We all enjoy overtaking, and whilst it needs to be easier to chase we don't want to be watching Moto 125cc!

From my own personal experience the two races I would call my "best", one involved 15 passes and the other none at all.

:up:

As with Crofty on 5live you're on the money. His analogy is that a 0-0 scorline in footie can produce dramatic and exciting and is just the same in racing - as long as cars can follow each other within a second or so, jinking and darting to put pressure/looking for an opening.

[F1boat]

Ross is on the money here.

For me a good race involves great racing. That does not automatically equal overtaking in my mind. For example I thought Turkey was excellent; tense, nip and tuck with a few brilliant passes thrown in for good measure. We all enjoy overtaking, and whilst it needs to be easier to chase we don't want to be watching Moto 125cc!

From my own personal experience the two races I would call my "best", one involved 15 passes and the other none at all.

Yes, very well said.

[rallyrazz]

Ross is on the money here.

For me a good race involves great racing. That does not automatically equal overtaking in my mind. For example I thought Turkey was excellent; tense, nip and tuck with a few brilliant passes thrown in for good measure. We all enjoy overtaking, and whilst it needs to be easier to chase we don't want to be watching Moto 125cc!

From my own personal experience the two races I would call my "best", one involved 15 passes and the other none at all.

Well said indeed.

[ClarkFan]

It depends whether you're talking about purely making overtaking more possible or somehow artificially creating lots of overtaking.

For example, it doesn't matter whether overtaking is easier if the quickest car qualifies on pole and then drives away from the field - that's just motor racing.

On the other hand - when a car can be catching another by nearly 2 seconds a lap and then hit the 'brick wall' of the dirty air and make no more progress - that's something that needs addressing in my opinion.
:up:

That is the nub of the problem. NASCAR "overtaking" is mainly stagecraft, but F1 really needs to work on the problem of slow cars being able to stay in front of fast ones.

[penagate]

The basketball/soccer analogy is very good.

I think in addition to the design of the cars, there's also the design of the tracks to consider. One thing that Hermann Tilke does well is create tracks which encourage overtaking, but this comes at the expense of the actual spectacle. At Shanghai we often see slipstream passes down the long back straight. These are all valid overtakes, but they are just not exciting to watch, because — like points in basketball — they're easy to come by.

In its most recent F1 incarnation the Imola circuit was criticised for creating processional races. Yet the 2005 and 2006 San Marino GPs produced brilliant, tense battles to the finish between Alonso and Schumacher. Even though there was no passing and very little chance of it, there was always the possibility that one driver would make a mistake or send a wild move up the inside of the other.

That's exciting racing and we had that in Turkey as well.


In my opinion Formula 1 should focus on reducing the aerodynamic wake of the cars, but also race on more tracks like Imola. The barriers to pulling off a move should then be more in the drivers' minds rather than purely coming from the cars in front.

[F1boat]

The basketball/soccer analogy is very good.

I think in addition to the design of the cars, there's also the design of the tracks to consider. One thing that Hermann Tilke does well is create tracks which encourage overtaking, but this comes at the expense of the actual spectacle. At Shanghai we often see slipstream passes down the long back straight. These are all valid overtakes, but they are just not exciting to watch, because — like points in basketball — they're easy to come by.

In its most recent F1 incarnation the Imola circuit was criticised for creating processional races. Yet the 2005 and 2006 San Marino GPs produced brilliant, tense battles to the finish between Alonso and Schumacher. Even though there was no passing and very little chance of it, there was always the possibility that one driver would make a mistake or send a wild move up the inside of the other.

That's exciting racing and we had that in Turkey as well.


In my opinion Formula 1 should focus on reducing the aerodynamic wake of the cars, but also race on more tracks like Imola. The barriers to pulling off a move should then be more in the drivers' minds rather than purely coming from the cars in front.
Good comment!

[Redstorm]

Agreed. Overtaking just for the sake of overtaking isn't what any of us are after. If you can suck up behind the leading car and have a go at it you have excitement. It's when you can only follow within ten car lengths and can't close in that a procession becomes boring.

Also look at the comment from Brawn's standpoint. What does a team principle want? Little drama, just Schui passes for the lead----->Schui pulls out a one lap advantage and cruises home. Brawn and Merc go home happy and without breaking a sweat. The races we find the most exciting give these guys ulcers!!!

[ArrowsFA1]

On the other hand - when a car can be catching another by nearly 2 seconds a lap and then hit the 'brick wall' of the dirty air and make no more progress - that's something that needs addressing in my opinion.
:up:


All we need is one team to figure out a way to run well in another car's "dirty air" and you'll hear the biggest outcry of cheating on this forum - until everyone else copies it, of course.
If a team could find such a solution then it would be on a par with things like 'ground effect' IMHO i.e. the kind of innovative thinking that F1 had been all about until the increasingly restrictive regulations we've seen in recent years.

[NaBUru38]

The basketball analogy is good, the most pointless races I ever saw were the Handford device CART parades at Michigan. However, I don't think F1's current catenaccio if is great, either. We'd need something in the middle. Hockey, anyone?
How about handball? Spectators get to see points every few minutes (unlike football association), but these aren't trivial to score as in basketball. It doesn't have unnecessary violence as American football, ice hockey or Nascar.

I want the front-runners to drive close to each other the whole race, but that's not enough: they must try to overtake each other the whole time. I don't need lead changes every minute, one overtake among the front-runners every few minutes is fine.

[52Paddy]

I want the front-runners to drive close to each other the whole race, but that's not enough: they must try to overtake each other the whole time. I don't need lead changes every minute, one overtake among the front-runners every few minutes is fine.

Personally, I couldn't care less if there was no overtaking if it was on the driver's own accord. That's all part of motor racing, as has already been said. But every driver should have the possibility of overtaking open to them (i.e. get rid of dirty air syndrome).

I think what you want, NaBUru, is some 1980s British touring car racing. One overtake among the front runners every few minutes is asking quite a lot in my opinion.

[Sonic]

Personally, I couldn't care less if there was no overtaking if it was on the driver's own accord. That's all part of motor racing, as has already been said. But every driver should have the possibility of overtaking open to them (i.e. get rid of dirty air syndrome).

I think what you want, NaBUru, is some 1980s British touring car racing. One overtake among the front runners every few minutes is asking quite a lot in my opinion.

Agreed. Even slicks and no wings formula struggle to make a pass every other lap as NaBUru has suggested.

[call_me_andrew]

Yes, but don't you think that most of the time we see a safety car, it probably needs to be out there? I mean, compared to American motorsports, I think F1 does a very good job of deploying the safety car only when absolutely necessary. In NASCAR they throw a yellow (and even have "competition" yellows) for unseen debris and hotdog wrappers on the track. The IRL throws a full course yellow and deploys a pace car, where F1 would have a local yellow, because they're apparently too broke to hire cranes to snag & bag wrecked cars off line.

Since I'd put emphasis on the "great" in Brawn's response, I'd have to agree with him. One or two great passes are memorable. Twenty or thirty meaningless, drafting passes are not.

Just my 2 cents...

I think this has more to do with the cost of insurance and the attitudes towards safety. These days you can't allow anyone to set foot on the track while cars are still racing on it (even if it is at two completely different points of the track). There's a reason why WRC never comes here!