View Full Version : Ward Churchill got the American Free Speech Treatment
Some say Mohammad and Muslims should be free game for cartoonists and others. I'd like to hear their views on what happened to Ward Churchill. Before he published his essay "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens" nobody was interested in his alleged "research misconduct", so it was clearly an excuse, maybe even a fabricated one, and the real reason for firing him was said essay and his views.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Churchill
In January 2005, Churchill's work attracted publicity because of the widespread circulation of a 2001 essay, "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens". In the essay, he claimed that the September 11, 2001 attacks were a natural and unavoidable consequence of what he views as unlawful US policy, and he referred to the "technocratic corps" working in the World Trade Center as "little Eichmanns".[1]
In March 2005 the University of Colorado began investigating allegations that Churchill had engaged in research misconduct; it reported in June 2006 that he had done so.[2] Churchill was fired on July 24, 2007,[3] leading to a claim by some scholars that he was fired over the ideas he expressed.[4][dead link][5] Churchill filed a lawsuit against the University of Colorado for unlawful termination of employment. In April 2009 a Denver jury found that Churchill was wrongly fired, awarding him $1 in damages.[6][7] In July, 2009, a District Court judge vacated the monetary award and declined Churchill's request to order his reinstatement, deciding the university has "quasi-judicial immunity". In February, 2010, Churchill appealed the judges decision.
Some say Mohammad and Muslims should be free game for cartoonists and others. I'd like to here their views on what happened to Ward Churchill. Before he published his essay "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens" nobody was interested in his alleged "research misconduct", so it was clearly an excuse, maybe even a fabricated one, and the real reason for firing him was said essay and his views.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Churchill
In any case, last I heard nobody headbutted him or killed him for what he said.
Nice touch calling innocent financial workers "Little Eichmanns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann)". :champion:
One of the most sickening analogies I've ever heard.
Nice touch calling innocent financial workers "Little Eichmanns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann)". :champion:
One of the most sickening analogies I've ever heard.
Those cartoons weren't very flattering to Mohammad and the Muslims either.
In any case, last I heard nobody headbutted him or killed him for what he said.
I'm sure Churchill got his share of death threats:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0502/04/pzn.01.html
ZAHN: Churchill himself says he's received more than 100 death threats. And claims that his truck was vandalized. His daily life now is in the media spotlight.
And what about the Dixie Chicks death threats:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2972043.stm
Dixie Chicks 'get death threats'
The Dixie Chicks have said they fear for their lives following the backlash against singer Natalie Maines' comments about US President George Bush.
The band say they have received death threats after Maines told a London audience she was ashamed that Mr Bush came from her home state, Texas.
Easy Drifter
26th May 2010, 20:43
And Damon Hill got death threats over the Schumacher decision. But none of these were by Govt. or Religious leaders, just whack jobs that abound in every country.
Then there is the Islamic group that planned to blow up the CN Tower and behead Cdn. Prime Minister Harper.
And Damon Hill got death threats over the Schumacher decision. But none of these were by Govt. or Religious leaders, just whack jobs that abound in every country.
Then there is the Islamic group that planned to blow up the CN Tower and behead Cdn. Prime Minister Harper.
None of the headbutters or death threat givers of Lars Vilks were Govt. or Religous leaders either, and neither is that group that planned to blow up the CN Tower and behead Cdn. Prime Minister Harper. Al Qaeda is also not run by Govt. or Religious leaders.
anthonyvop
26th May 2010, 22:35
Ward Churchill?
Seriously?
The Wikipedia King has struck again.
The man was fired over plagiarism.
Easy Drifter
26th May 2010, 22:36
No just a sweet innocent little group of Islamic terrorists. Not a few individual whack jobs.
I also think Churchill's theories are ridiculous and anyone who would kill thousands of innocent people demented, just because of preceived wrongs.
I will defend his right to make those statements though.
The man was fired over plagiarism.
Wrongly fired, as the court decided. And nobody was interested in his alleged plagiarism before he wrote that essay, so it was clearly an excuse, since they couldn't fire him for expressing his opinions.
anthonyvop
27th May 2010, 06:21
Wrongly fired, as the court decided. And nobody was interested in his alleged plagiarism before he wrote that essay, so it was clearly an excuse, since they couldn't fire him for expressing his opinions.
No.
The courts decided that his dismissal was 100% legal.
His plagiarism was more than just one paper. He even forged art. It doesn't matter how or why it was discovered. The fact is he is a liar and a thief.
Deal with it.
No.
The courts decided that his dismissal was 100% legal.
His plagiarism was more than just one paper. He even forged art. It doesn't matter how or why it was discovered. The fact is he is a liar and a thief.
Deal with it.
Funny that he didn't plagiarize anything before 2005.
Bob Riebe
27th May 2010, 07:43
Anyone who uses the Wiki as an authoritative source of information cannot be expected to be able to give an analogy that holds water.
Common guys give him a break.
Just make sure you flush when you are done.
DexDexter
27th May 2010, 08:06
Anyone who uses the Wiki as an authoritative source of information cannot be expected to be able to give an analogy that holds water.
Common guys give him a break.
Just make sure you flush when you are done.
Still, according to studies, Wikipedia is still pretty reliable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia ;)
Bob Riebe
27th May 2010, 08:24
Still, according to studies, Wikipedia is still pretty reliable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia ;)
The WIKI says the WIKI is reliable-- Brilliant.
Bob Riebe
27th May 2010, 08:55
Here is what a liberal magazine had to say about Churchill:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/kamiya/2009/04/09/ward_churchill
He was awarded one dollar and then the verdict was totally thrown out by another judge.
Churchill is a fraud and liar.
markabilly
27th May 2010, 13:44
In any case, last I heard nobody headbutted him or killed him for what he said.
Nice touch calling innocent financial workers "Little Eichmanns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann)". :champion:
One of the most sickening analogies I've ever heard.
Those cartoons weren't very flattering to Mohammad and the Muslims either.
I heard that if osama butt ladin had known there were nothing other than "little eichmanns" inhabiting the towers, he would not have ordered the attacks and killed his idols, but for some reason he thought that there were some cartoonists operating out of the twin towers...
Churchill is a thief, cheat and a liar who would have continued his stealing......paid for by american taxpayers....but he squealed loud enough over 911 to get some attention, and when they looked closely at what he was doing....well bingo.
so yeah, his squealing is what lead to getting him fired....and if he had not sqwawked like a chicken in heat, he would still be there, cheating and stealing the works of others
but i have not heard any religious leader openly supporting killing him or head butting or anything and he ain't been headbutted or had other acts of physical violence committed upon his ivory tower face
but i have not heard any religious leader openly supporting killing him or head butting or anything and he ain't been headbutted or had other acts of physical violence committed upon his ivory tower face
When have you heard some religious leader openly supporting to kill the cartoonists? Name one and we'll see what kind of leader he is.
Mark in Oshawa
27th May 2010, 19:20
EKi...no one has tossed Ward in jail or stopped him from speaking his mind. He can write a book, go on radio or TV if they want to talk to him. His Free speech has NOT been quelled. His job was. Last I looked, if you stole, lied or plagerized as a professor, you usually would lose your job.
It isn't the right to have state funding for your stupidity, although you I am sure would approve. When will you do a story of people losing their freedom in Iran for various and sundry "offences" against the state?
When will you do a story of people losing their freedom in Iran for various and sundry "offences" against the state?
I'm sure Amnesty International is doing that already. So is the US Department of State, who publish every year the sins of every country in the world except their own:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/index.htm
Do you not think they are hypocritical?
Here's what they say about Canada:
Human rights problems included harassment of religious minorities, violence against women, and trafficking in persons.
Here's what they say about Finland:
Human rights problems included police failure to provide detainees timely access to legal counsel, questionable contributions to political campaigns, violence against women, trafficking in persons, and societal discrimination against foreign-born residents and Roma.
Yes, we are bad and evil people. We should take our detainees to a Caribbean holiday camp like Guantanamo Bay like you . And we are deeply sorry that our politicians have accepted campaign funds from private entrepreneurs unlike your squeaky-clean politicians. We are also sorry that our law-enforcement is crap and could not prevent each and every hate-crime towards minorities, domestic violence and prostitution like your super-efficient law-enforcement could.
anthonyvop
27th May 2010, 20:40
Here's what they say about Finland:
Yes, we are bad and evil people. We should take our detainees to a Caribbean holiday camp like Guantanamo Bay like you . And we are deeply sorry that our politicians have accepted campaign funds from private entrepreneurs unlike your squeaky-clean politicians. We are also sorry that our law-enforcement is crap and could not prevent each and every hate-crime towards minorities, domestic violence and prostitution like your super-efficient law-enforcement could.
Don't forget that Finland heavily restricts speech!!!!!
Don't forget that Finland heavily restricts speech!!!!!
Yes, hate speech is restricted. And that's bad as we all know:
Section 2 Respect for Civil Liberties, Including:
a. Freedom of Speech and Press
The constitution and law provide for freedom of speech and of the press, and the government generally respected these rights in practice. An independent press, an effective judiciary, and a functioning democratic political system combined to ensure freedom of speech and of the press. The independent media were active and generally expressed a wide variety of views without restriction, with the exception of hate speech.
Publishing hate material and public speech intended to incite discrimination or violence against any national, racial, religious, or ethnic group are crimes.
Internet Freedom
There were no government restrictions on access to the Internet or reports that the government monitored e-mail or Internet chat rooms. Individuals and groups could engage in the peaceful expression of views via the Internet, including by e-mail. According to International Telecommunication Union statistics for 2008, more than 82 percent of the country's inhabitants use the Internet.
Courts can fine persons found guilty of inciting racial hatred on the Internet, and there were reports of court decisions in 2008 against persons for publishing and distributing hate material via the Internet. On March 17, the Helsinki District Court found a municipal politician in Turku guilty of circulating hate material and fined him 615 euros (approximately $920). The court found the defendant's remarks during the 2007 election campaign to be derogatory and slanderous toward immigrants. The Helsinki District Court also found an independent member of the Helsinki City Council guilty of writing hate material on his blog and fined him 330 euros (approximately $470). During the year the Kouvola Court of Appeals upheld the conviction of a man for posting anti-Roma hate material on the Internet.
Academic Freedom and Cultural Events
There were no government restrictions on academic freedom or cultural events.
b. Freedom of Peaceful Assembly and Association
The constitution and law provide for freedom of assembly and association, and the government generally respected these rights in practice.
c. Freedom of Religion
The law provides for freedom of religion, and the government generally respected this right in practice. According to the law, the Evangelical Lutheran Church (ELC) of Finland and the Finnish Orthodox Church are established state churches.
Citizens who belong to one of the two state churches pay a 1-2 percent church tax as part of their income tax but may opt out by officially leaving the ELC or Orthodox Church. Other registered religious communities that qualified by having 200 or more members may receive state funds to help defray operating costs.
Religious instruction in Lutheran or Orthodox doctrine is a part of the public school curriculum; however, students could substitute philosophy or world religion courses. In some urban communities, students may receive Islamic religious instruction in public schools.
The Ministry of Defense stated that between seven and 12 persons annually refuse to perform military service, and it estimated that 30 to 40 persons also refuse to perform civilian service. In April the NGO Union of Conscientious Objectors (a member of NGO War Resisters' International) reported that 11 conscientious objectors were in prison for refusing to perform either compulsory military service or alternative civilian service. The 2009 Amnesty International USA report on the country put the number of imprisoned conscientious objectors between October 2007 and September 2008 at 18. Some of those imprisoned stated their objection to military or civilian service was based on religious conviction. However, there was no evidence that the government singled out any individuals for prosecution because of their religious beliefs or their membership in a religious minority. The law specifically exempts Jehovah's Witnesses from military service. Regular military service is between 180 and 362 days. The period prescribed for nonmilitary service is 362 days. There is no obligation to repeat the service.
Societal Abuses and Discrimination
According to Statistics Finland, the country's Jewish community numbered approximately 1,500. There were no reports of anti-Semitic acts.
The Ministry of Education continued to integrate tolerance and antibias courses and material into the public school curriculum. Students begin studying the Holocaust and the phenomenon of anti-Semitism in the eighth grade.
For a more detailed discussion, see the 2009 International Religious Freedom Report at http://www.state.gov/g/drl/irf/rpt.
Mark in Oshawa
27th May 2010, 21:54
I'm sure Amnesty International is doing that already. So is the US Department of State, who publish every year the sins of every country in the world except their own:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/index.htm
Do you not think they are hypocritical?
Here's what they say about Canada:
They said that about Canada? Well hell, if that is your standard, move to the moon man...because if Canadians are oppressed, I would have to say the only voice attacked are conservatives who tend to rail against the obsessive reach of the nanny state human rights tribunals.
The sad reality is you are trying to change the argument because you HAVE none...
Ward Churchill isn't being oppressed, he got fired for being an idiot. You can say what you like as a professor, but you are required to actually think of it and take ownership of it, not steal it from someone with your name on it....
Bob Riebe
27th May 2010, 21:58
When have you heard some religious leader openly supporting to kill the cartoonists? Name one and we'll see what kind of leader he is.
Your rhetoric shows you are one biased and hate filled youth; an atypical Finlander thank God.
Mark in Oshawa
27th May 2010, 21:59
Your rhetoric shows you are one biased and hate filled youth; an atypical Finlander thank God.
yes...most of the Finns seem to be sensible folk. Just Eki loves to argue...and when you shoot him down, the argument changes....I am waiting for him to rotate 180 degrees on a point during a long thread....and start arguing from the other side...lol
Easy Drifter
27th May 2010, 22:01
Avast Mateys The Eki is on another hijack!
anthonyvop
27th May 2010, 22:15
Yes, hate speech is restricted. And that's bad as we all know:
So if you are critical of something in Finland they slap on a "Hate Speech" charge to shut you up.
Sounds like Fascism to me.
Bob Riebe
27th May 2010, 22:21
yes...most of the Finns seem to be sensible folk. Just Eki loves to argue...and when you shoot him down, the argument changes....I am waiting for him to rotate 180 degrees on a point during a long thread....and start arguing from the other side...lol
He sounds more and more like a troll, who knows how to do it without being banned from site obvious.
The subtle child like why, why, why, why, why manner works far better than the old-- your mother wears army boots, method.
Mark in Oshawa
27th May 2010, 22:29
Avast Mateys The Eki is on another hijack!
He had to. He was losing...
It's not nice of you to come down on Eki like that. We should all admire him for standing up for the Weak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad#.22Earthquake_Saferoom.22), Innocent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Nasrallah), Defenseless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il) and generally nice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) people of this world.
Eki, I salute you!
Mark in Oshawa
27th May 2010, 22:50
It's not nice of you to come down on Eki like that. We should all admire him for standing up for the Weak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad#.22Earthquake_Saferoom.22), Innocent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Nasrallah), Defenseless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il) and generally nice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) people of this world.
Eki, I salute you!
Yes...well you know, Rani, he loves democracy and freedom so much that he never says anything about such paragons of virtue and freedom....
AAReagles
28th May 2010, 18:55
... Eki loves to argue...and when you shoot him down, the argument changes....I am waiting for him to rotate 180 degrees on a point during a long thread....and start arguing from the other side...lol :laugh:
Sorry to get off-track, but that crosses my mind as well, on occasion. Sometimes I’m not certain if he's sincere about his discussion or practicing for the local debate club meeting.
I have to admit I’ve even adopted some of his tactics after reading his #1 best seller, The Manifesto Of Eki. Such as Chapter 3, Paragraph 2: ‘Public forums should be regarded like family reunions; never ever admit that you’re “wrong.”
He had to. He was losing...
How was I losing? How can anyone win? Who are the referees?
yes...most of the Finns seem to be sensible folk.
How about Muslims, Iraqis and Afghans, do most of them seem to be sensible folks to you?
yes...most of the Finns seem to be sensible folk. Just Eki loves to argue...and when you shoot him down, the argument changes....
Shot me down? Who, where and how?
I am waiting for him to rotate 180 degrees on a point during a long thread....and start arguing from the other side...lol
Of course I will do that, but only if you change your view 180 degrees. I look at things from 360 degrees perspective (that is something you never do), but as long as you're defending the other side, I don't have to. You should have learnt by now that I like balance. Too much of anything is too much.
He sounds more and more like a troll, who knows how to do it without being banned from site obvious.
The subtle child like why, why, why, why, why manner works far better than the old-- your mother wears army boots, method.
I try to be thought provoking and not a troll, but obviously those who can't think consider me a troll.
It's not nice of you to come down on Eki like that. We should all admire him for standing up for the Weak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad#.22Earthquake_Saferoom.22), Innocent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Nasrallah), Defenseless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il) and generally nice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) people of this world.
Eki, I salute you!
Nice one. You found the lowest common denominators. Almost every one hates THOSE people, so it's a clever idea to use them to rally people to defend Israel. A smoke screen to hide your own sins.
Mark in Oshawa
28th May 2010, 20:42
Shot me down? Who, where and how?
Of course I will do that, but only if you change your view 180 degrees. I look at things from 360 degrees perspective (that is something you never do), but as long as you're defending the other side, I don't have to. You should have learnt by now that I like balance. Too much of anything is too much.
You claimed Ward Churchill lost his job due to what he said only, as if it was a crime. We refuted that, and you are not talking about that.
As for my view changing, I change my views on occasion as facts and circumstances change on some subjects. You on the other hand are consistently: Anti George Bush, Anti Israel, and you ignore human rights violaters who are more obvious, more venal, nasty and insipid than the supposed enemies of the human race you keep bringing up. When you lose any argument or anyone refutes directly your "facts" you either dig up more Wiki factoids to change the argument or just let it degenerate in another direction. IN short, you have hijacked more threads than any other poster on Chit Chat. Which is fine...we do have a good time with it...but please spare me this theory you don't..and you are about balance...
I have been on the same side of many threads with you at times, and against you at other times, so if anyone is about balance, I would wager it is me. I took a beating on the thread about the Apache helicopter guntape release from people usually on my side of the political fence. I think I am the guy who does the balance thing on occasion, but I wouldn't pretend to be politically neutral. I don't know if there is such a person on this board.
You claimed Ward Churchill lost his job due to what he said only,
I didn't say only. I said they started to dig up dirt on him only after he wrote that essay and said what he said in it. Before that they weren't even interested in him.
I didn't say only. I said they started to dig up dirt on him only after he wrote that essay and said what he said in it. Before that they weren't even interested in him.
He was getting too close to the naked truth, and that was what made people nervous. Otherwise they would not have given a damn about him.
Mark in Oshawa
28th May 2010, 22:51
Eki...you just agree with him. Ward wouldn't know the truth if someone didn't write it for him....
Easy Drifter
29th May 2010, 05:45
Ok gang. Collection time and I hope Eki contributes first and big time.
The Forum will build a Synagogue in the next lot to Eki's place on the right, a Mosque to the left and a Hindu temple behind him.
I am not sure where to put the RC and Greek Orthadox churches or the Buddaist temple. :eek:
ShiftingGears
29th May 2010, 05:50
He was getting too close to the naked truth, and that was what made people nervous. Otherwise they would not have given a damn about him.
If no-one read what he wrote, then he wouldn't get busted for plagiarism.
Which is evidently the case for this guy pre-publicity.
Bob Riebe
29th May 2010, 05:54
I try to be thought provoking and not a troll, but obviously those who can't think consider me a troll.
Your rhetoric shows a definite lack of logic or serious thought, so you consider your-self a troll?
Lies and a half-truths are not thought provoking they are biased lies, half-truths.
Bob Riebe
29th May 2010, 05:55
He was getting too close to the naked truth, and that was what made people nervous. Otherwise they would not have given a damn about him.
Do you have proof for your rhetoric or is just more vacuous accusations and simple BS?
Ok gang. Collection time and I hope Eki contributes first and big time.
The Forum will build a Synagogue in the next lot to Eki's place on the right, a Mosque to the left and a Hindu temple behind him.
I am not sure where to put the RC and Greek Orthadox churches or the Buddaist temple. :eek:
There already is a Mosque, a Greek Orthodox church and a Roman Catholic church in my city, so you could start with the Synagogue. Don't make it too big though, less than hundred sitting places should be enough. I just checked the statistics. They said that in the two Jewish parishes in Finland is 1637 members, of which 1453 were in the Helsinki parish and 184 in the Turku parish. They already have their Synagogues. In addition to those, just over one hundred Israelis live elsewhere in Finland and don't belong to neither parish. So you should cater to those just over one hundred. And I'm quite sure that not all of them live in my city.
markabilly
29th May 2010, 14:34
wikie eki has a small point. ward's rant got him the attention ward wanted, and when his credibility was found to be so lacking in what he wrote, the question was what about his other stuff?
Then bingo.That is why Ward got a whole one dollar as the jury reward
It is like the IRS used to audit those who blew the whistle on others....and very often they got a two for the price of one, a double dip...
or someone running to the cops and hollering about my neighbor stole six televisions from my van........and the cops investigate, and ask why did you have six TVs in your van , and why does your van fit the description of the van in a robbery the other night....of televisions from a business.......and why are all those Tvs and other electronic gear in your garrage.....
yep, never would have happened, if the guy had not started sqawking and stuff.
Of course some might say, well it also never would have happenned if the guy had not been such a BIG Thief, or in Ward's case, quilty of the sins he would ascribe to others of being such a liar....but why confuse the issues and mess up Eki's rant
Bob Riebe
29th May 2010, 17:54
Then bingo.That is why Ward got a whole one dollar as the jury reward
plus a later judge threw the entire case out- Ward lost.
Of course trolls do not like the truth.
markabilly
29th May 2010, 18:17
plus a later judge threw the entire case out- Ward lost.
Of course trolls do not like the truth.
the judge tossed it because you got to show there was no legal justification AND it happenned only because he was hooting.
Sort of hard to do with Ward since it was his theft that was proved up via his own writings
No different than telling the cops, yeah, well just cause I stole some TVs does not mean someone can steal them from me and you arresting me is just retaliation for me reporting the other guy for stealing........ :rolleyes:
but when trolling, often the truth and logic must be sacrificed for the greater glory of the troll.......
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.