Greece: Burn the parliament

[Sonic]

Riots of the streets. Clashes between protesters and police outside the parliament building as they try to storm and burn their pariament down. What a mess :(

[anthonyvop]

Riots of the streets. Clashes between protesters and police outside the parliament building as they try to storm and burn their pariament down. What a mess :(


They want universal entitlements, and lifetime job security but they get mad when the bill comes in????



So typical.

[ioan]

Stupid people who didn't realize they were living in comfort on borrowed money and believe that they can change any of this with violence.

[edv]

Cannot blame the young people for being angry because it is their parents'/grandparents' generation that has brought this impending burden upon them.

Here's the rub: If you were suckled on the teat of government entitlement, how are you going to be convinced to vote for a government of austerity or even of common sense? The electorate have become captives of the system.

This is what happens when you're born with a Union Card. I fear only revolution will change the mindset.

[gloomyDAY]

I'm not sure what violent protests are going to solve for the Greeks. I remember two years ago that Greek youth were up in arms over the shooting of an unarmed young man and took to the streets for revenge. Then, the banking industry collapsed and Greek protesters committed over $1 billion worth of damage around the city of Athens. Instead of trying to fix the problem, they smash buildings and loot shopping malls. Am I missing something here? Nothing is being solved, and when George tells them they have revert to radical measure in order to ward off insolvency, Greeks turn violent again.

[ioan]

I'm not sure what violent protests are going to solve for the Greeks. I remember two years ago that Greek youth were up in arms over the shooting of an unarmed young man and took to the streets for revenge. Then, the banking industry collapsed and Greek protesters committed over $1 billion worth of damage around the city of Athens. Instead of trying to fix the problem, they smash buildings and loot shopping malls. Am I missing something here? Nothing is being solved, and when George tells them they have revert to radical measure in order to ward off insolvency, Greeks turn violent again.

This is proof that stupid people never change.
The problem is that my money is loosing value every day because of their lazy and stupid bums, and on top of that my taxes will certainly be raised soon to pay for these parasites well being.

[N.O.T]

the thing is around 60-70% of those who are on the streets and want to burn down the parliament voted for the guys that want to burn now and they will vote for them again again in order to have a safe job on the public services and the polititcians from their part in order to have the votes they inflate the public services with people that they do absolutely nothing becuase there isn;t anything to do.

An example is our public train transporter which requires 300.000 euros/month just for the payments of its employees while their profit is 100.000/month....the guy who is responsible of pressing a button to raise the bars on railroad crossings gets payed around 2.500-3000 per month...so go figure.

Europe did the mistake to accept greece in the first place...i don;t know what they were thinking. now they unfortunately pay the price and i think that smaller countries are going to get the hammering far worse than those with good exports and heavy industry.

[christophulus]

I get the feeling the other countries should just stand back and let Greece completely fail, I can't see how pumping more money in is anything other than a short term fix. Serves them right for racking up such a huge deficit in the first place.

It's worrying that the UK has a similar level of debt, hopefully we can reverse it before it gets too bad. Thankfully we're not in the Euro, or else we'd be considerably worse off.

[ioan]

I get the feeling the other countries should just stand back and let Greece completely fail, I can't see how pumping more money in is anything other than a short term fix.

That's easy to say when you don't get paid in Euros every month. If Greece collapses they will pull down the Euro, something no one wants. rest assured if they were not in the Euro currency group Germany wouldn't have accepted to help them (they were reluctant anyway) and they would have been right to do so.


It's worrying that the UK has a similar level of debt, hopefully we can reverse it before it gets too bad. Thankfully we're not in the Euro, or else we'd be considerably worse off.

The UK also has a public debt of around 130% of the GDP?!

[driveace]

If I had been Angela Merkel,or the German peoples spokesperson I would have said to greece ,you got into this mess,you get out of it,you dont help a bankrupt by throwing money at him.AND we are in the sh*t too,because of the crap government we have had for the last 13 years,spending money we are already borrowing nearly a quarter of all the money we are spending as a government.ITS Crazy!!
And now what will happen,we will be forced to pay VAT at 23%,you mark my words,none of them will tell you this NOW but come next week!

[fandango]

I suppose it comes down to feeling powerless. I don't know anything about Greece, but I've read that corruption is a big problem, so ordinary hard-working people must feel that they aren't the ones who made the mess, but they'll have to pay.

I don't buy the "tut-tut, stupid people" judgement. It could happen in any country...

[Tomi]

If I had been Angela Merkel,or the German peoples spokesperson I would have said to greece ,you got into this mess,you get out of it,you dont help a bankrupt by throwing money at him.AND we are in the sh*t too,because of the crap government we have had for the last 13 years,spending money we are already borrowing nearly a quarter of all the money we are spending as a government.ITS Crazy!!
And now what will happen,we will be forced to pay VAT at 23%,you mark my words,none of them will tell you this NOW but come next week!

im sure she would if she could, but if greece would not get the loans, a few bigger european banks would collapse aswell, this puts many countries between a rock and a hard place, so actually by helping greece, they help their own banks who has been irresponible loaning money to greece, i have a feeling greece will not be the only one, portugal will be next.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Thatcher said socialism only works until you run out of everyone else's money..which is where Greece is at.

People at the polls in the UK tomorrow should take a long hard look at where they are going and what they expect from government. At some point, someone has to say no...because when you have to say no because you are broke and half the nation has their hand out, you are screwed!

[Tomi]

Thatcher said socialism only works until you run out of everyone else's money..which is where Greece is at.

dont you think it worked quite well 1 year back in us too :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

dont you think it worked quite well 1 year back in us too :)
Tomi..they haven't run out of money yet. That said, when Obama is done, the Chinese banks will own the US Gov't....

[christophulus]

That's easy to say when you don't get paid in Euros every month. If Greece collapses they will pull down the Euro, something no one wants. rest assured if they were not in the Euro currency group Germany wouldn't have accepted to help them (they were reluctant anyway) and they would have been right to do so.

The UK also has a public debt of around 130% of the GDP?!

That's exactly the problem, the other countries can't afford to let Greece fail, but nor can I see where they're going to find the billions needed to prop it up. The downside of a shared currency I suppose, I do sympathise with everyone in the EU who's going to lose out through no fault of their own.

And no, that's me getting confused. Our deficit is the same region as Greece, whereas the debt is "only" 60% of GDP..

[Tomi]

Tomi..they haven't run out of money yet. That said, when Obama is done, the Chinese banks will own the US Gov't....
Thats true, but who cares.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Thats true, but who cares.

If What happens in Greece happens to Washington..you better bet you should care. The World's largest economy or 2nd largest (China likely is now) goes into the state Greece does, and it will knock the economy of the world on its ear. Besides...Europe will be in a weakened state because what is happening in Greece likely will be happening across the continent in Portugal next...

[Tomi]

If What happens in Greece happens to Washington..you better bet you should care. The World's largest economy or 2nd largest (China likely is now) goes into the state Greece does, and it will knock the economy of the world on its ear. Besides...Europe will be in a weakened state because what is happening in Greece likely will be happening across the continent in Portugal next...

When the day comes that China will collect their debts, the us economy has lost a big part of their importance in economy, but before that we will see more of simular pathetic tries to protecting own "key" industries, like the Toyota case now.

[Mark in Oshawa]

When the day comes that China will collect their debts, the us economy has lost a big part of their importance in economy, but before that we will see more of simular pathetic tries to protecting own "key" industries, like the Toyota case now.

The US Economy is basically the largest still. If it goes through what Greece is going through, it will send a shockwave throughout the world, including Finland.

you are NAIVE if you think that is a good thing....

[Tomi]

The US Economy is basically the largest still. If it goes through what Greece is going through, it will send a shockwave throughout the world, including Finland.

you are NAIVE if you think that is a good thing....

yes but it wont happen as long as communist china is willing keeping them floating, and the growing markets are not in us, but in asia south america, and soon africa.

[tolis]

The situation in Greece is very bad those days... We, the Greeks, should change our minds completely and stop thinking about our personal interest but about our country's next day. Unfortunately, in today's massive demonstration in Greece, a bank caught fire by the angry protesters and three members of the staff were trapped in the building and died... The politicians every time something bad happens, express their deepest condolences, but I don't think that the situation will change in the near future...However, I think that the responsible about this bad situation are not only the politicians, but also the Greeks who don't care about the whole country, but only for their personal interest and their own prosperity.

[gadjo_dilo]

This is proof that stupid people never change.
The problem is that my money is loosing value every day because of their lazy and stupid bums, and on top of that my taxes will certainly be raised soon to pay for these parasites well being.

Ioane, no offence but sometimes you are such a bighead....
As if you're belonging to a hard working nation. :laugh:

[Mark in Oshawa]

The situation in Greece is very bad those days... We, the Greeks, should change our minds completely and stop thinking about our personal interest but about our country's next day. Unfortunately, in today's massive demonstration in Greece, a bank caught fire by the angry protesters and three members of the staff were trapped in the building and died... The politicians every time something bad happens, express their deepest condolences, but I don't think that the situation will change in the near future...However, I think that the responsible about this bad situation are not only the politicians, but also the Greeks who don't care about the whole country, but only for their personal interest and their own prosperity.

Greece is teaching the world a lesson of where entitlements and socialist democracy's can go when the money runs out. I doubt highly too many people will learn the lesson tho. Just like the Greek's rioting, they just think it is THEIRS by right..and it isn't.

It is one thing for your government to help you when you truly are in need, it is another when you just think it owes you everything...

[edv]

Well the markets took a big tumble today on fears that European banks are no longer liquid.
Here's a quote from an analyst, and it's not looking good for Greece either way:
"There is simply a growing recognition that Greece has got to default, said Rochdale banking analyst Dick Bove. "The riots in the streets showed the decision to repay the debt was not going to be made by the people in Germany, France and Switzerland, it's going to be made by people in Greece and they're not going to repay it," he said. "Anyone seeing the riots is going to recognize that this government is going to be thrown out and anything replacing this government is going to be far more leftist leaning and they're going to repudiate."

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well the markets took a big tumble today on fears that European banks are no longer liquid.
Here's a quote from an analyst, and it's not looking good for Greece either way:
"There is simply a growing recognition that Greece has got to default, said Rochdale banking analyst Dick Bove. "The riots in the streets showed the decision to repay the debt was not going to be made by the people in Germany, France and Switzerland, it's going to be made by people in Greece and they're not going to repay it," he said. "Anyone seeing the riots is going to recognize that this government is going to be thrown out and anything replacing this government is going to be far more leftist leaning and they're going to repudiate."

They can refuse to pay, and the world will refuse to lend them money. At some point...someone will wake up and hear Dr. Phil's famous line "so hows THAT working for you?"....

I do know that I heard a radio pundit today state that the German people were roasting Merkel when she wanted to help out with money from Germany with the debt. The taxpayers of Germany don't want to bail out the retired and entitled bloated bureaucrats that drove Greece into the Aegean....

I am not happy about how the world's economy will be rocked by situations like this, but I do think it is going to teach people a lesson about what happens when you run out of money. My signature quote from Thatcher is ringing VERY loudly in my head...

[Bob Riebe]

Greece is teaching the world a lesson of where entitlements and socialist democracy's can go when the money runs out. I doubt highly too many people will learn the lesson tho. Just like the Greek's rioting, they just think it is THEIRS by right..and it isn't.

It is one thing for your government to help you when you truly are in need, it is another when you just think it owes you everything...

Sadly the U.S. is right now roaring down the path that put Greece into the situation that it is in.

Or to paraphrease as Gary Kasparov said in the WSJ some years back: " Our country is slowly adopting the best of yours, but yours is rapidly adopting the worst of mine."

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sadly the U.S. is right now roaring down the path that put Greece into the situation that it is in.

Or to paraphrease as Gary Kasparov said in the WSJ some years back: " Our country is slowly adopting the best of yours, but yours is rapidly adopting the worst of mine."

Kasparov was dead on the money there. I do think though the US has a lot more rope to use to hang itself before it gets to the situation in Greece...That said, this next set of US Elections will tell everyone if the people of the US are dumb enough to fall into this trap or not....

[dunes]

That said, this next set of US Elections will tell everyone if the people of the US are dumb enough to fall into this trap or not....


You really believe our votes matter or count. We don't we know its all propaganda for ratings.lol
Just to let you know were watching everything and we will not fall into any thought of helping or bailing out greece. Thier credits not good enough.

[Malbec]

Greece is teaching the world a lesson of where entitlements and socialist democracy's can go when the money runs out. I doubt highly too many people will learn the lesson tho. Just like the Greek's rioting, they just think it is THEIRS by right..and it isn't.

It is one thing for your government to help you when you truly are in need, it is another when you just think it owes you everything...

So Mark, why is it that the two developed countries with the greatest level of debt, Italy and Japan, are the ones where the left is in disarray and where the right have ruled in Japan's case for the past 60 years and in Italy's case for most of the past two decades?

Bleating on about socialist democracy just reveals how you view this problem through your rightist prism and not with any understanding of the problems that afflict Greece. Remember that this is a country that for most of its modern history has been run by the military and the right wing too.

This is a country that simply has never been able to tax in any form recognisable to someone from a properly run country, one that is quite happy to tax turnover rather than profit and then wonder why industries shift overseas wholesale. It is corrupt from top to bottom and had to cook the books to enter into the Euro.

One of the main reasons why there is so much anger in Greece isn't because of a sense of entitlement but due to anger at the degree of mismanagement that people have known has gone on for decades.

What the place needs isn't a bailout, its a purge.

[anthonyvop]

So Mark, why is it that the two developed countries with the greatest level of debt, Italy and Japan, are the ones where the left is in disarray and where the right have ruled in Japan's case for the past 60 years and in Italy's case for most of the past two decades?


Japan and Italy ruled by the right?

HaHaHaHa....Now that is funny.

[Roamy]

The chinese will own what we let them. We will rise back up but we may hit the ditch first which may be a good thing. You Euros sucked in all the poorer countries and now the bill has arrived. If I were Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy
I would withdraw from the EU. Sorry it didn't work - Much of what we will tell China. Oh sorry it didn't work out!! But we are years away I think. But the climax will be some good sh!t.

[AAReagles]

I suppose it comes down to feeling powerless. I don't know anything about Greece, but I've read that corruption is a big problem, so ordinary hard-working people must feel that they aren't the ones who made the mess, but they'll have to pay.

I don't buy the "tut-tut, stupid people" judgement. It could happen in any country...
:up: Exactly what I was thinking. The media seems to going into the happy-happy-joy-joy mode of Obamanomics whenever the slightest good news is relayed from the gov't., tag that with consumerism of iPads, American Idol and such, people have this false security that we're just about out of the woods, when we're still far from it yet.

Can't say I judge folks either, especially when there had been some long standing resentment of gov't malfeasance. Like here in the states.

[Mark in Oshawa]

So Mark, why is it that the two developed countries with the greatest level of debt, Italy and Japan, are the ones where the left is in disarray and where the right have ruled in Japan's case for the past 60 years and in Italy's case for most of the past two decades?

Bleating on about socialist democracy just reveals how you view this problem through your rightist prism and not with any understanding of the problems that afflict Greece. Remember that this is a country that for most of its modern history has been run by the military and the right wing too.

This is a country that simply has never been able to tax in any form recognisable to someone from a properly run country, one that is quite happy to tax turnover rather than profit and then wonder why industries shift overseas wholesale. It is corrupt from top to bottom and had to cook the books to enter into the Euro.

One of the main reasons why there is so much anger in Greece isn't because of a sense of entitlement but due to anger at the degree of mismanagement that people have known has gone on for decades.

What the place needs isn't a bailout, its a purge.

Explain to me how Japan is a right wing country? The state sponsors and bends over backwards to subsidize their industry, and it is one of the few truly protectionist nations on earth. Also, you say they are more in debt? I have my recent issue of MacLeans ( a Canadian Magazine ) that has debt figures far higher per capita for Spain and Portugal.

Also, I am not saying a "right" government cannot be in debt. On the contrary, some get caught up in their own little pet projects and run up the credit card. Look at Bush's America with the money spent on Iraq, a war that is of dubious value. That said, Obama has come in and cut nothing, so what does THAT tell you?

I can also tell you that I am not against ANY government of the left or right if they can balance the budget without just going to the taxpayer first all the time. THAT is the problem tho, and governments of the right at least on occasion DO lower taxes, but I am still looking for a any left of center state or provincial/ national governments in the US or Canada that have actually cut taxes and ran a fiscally sound government. The centerist Liberal party in Canada under Jean Chretien DID balance the books but they did it on the back of the provincial transfers and raising taxes. They only did this because they knew that idea of balancing the books and paying down the debt was a growing issue gaining traction with the opposition. 5 years later, they did the deed and then used the surplus to start up more state welfare schemes.....

Also, take note of something else. You cannot tell me how any nation can prosper when it is perennially in debt and having to borrow more and more. Eventually, the tide HAS to change. I have seen all sorts of numbers and the nations in the lead as debtors vary, but in the end, most of Western Europe is in debt right now, the USA is in debt, and Canada is in debt to a lessor degree but still in debt. Doesn't matter what political stripe of gov't is in power either. I do know this much tho. Most of the Right of center governments will eventually have to be more fiscally responsible or lose their base. THAT is why the Tea Party movement is growing in the US, and it is why many nations with high debt loads are polarizied between those taking the money and those paying it. Eventually, the bill comes due, but it only seems to be the hardass right wingers such as myself that have to keep saying that.

[AAReagles]

... Also, I am not saying a "right" government cannot be in debt. On the contrary, some get caught up in their own little pet projects and run up the credit card. Look at Bush's America with the money spent on Iraq, a war that is of dubious value. That said, Obama has come in and cut nothing, so what does THAT tell you?.

That he's the same as presidents in the past, which is why I didn't vote this last (presidential) election.




.... Eventually, the bill comes due, but it only seems to be the hardass right wingers such as myself that have to keep saying that.

Hardass right-winger?... you? I don't see that. Like me, you believe abortion should remain legal, plus you're at least against CP.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That he's the same as presidents in the past, which is why I didn't vote this last (presidential) election.





Hardass right-winger?... you? I don't see that. Like me, you believe abortion should remain legal, plus you're at least against CP.

You talk to Dylan, and I am a right winger....

I am a fan of a lot of conservative principles, but I am more a libertarian actually. I am against having my money constantly being taken from me to support causes that are not logical, feasible or sustainable in the long term. Yet, every year, it seems someone invents new ones. Like the chap in the EC that says having a vacation is a human right. The fact he wasn't laughed right out of the building says all you need to know about the idiots in the EC parliament....

[ioan]

You talk to Dylan, and I am a right winger....

I am a fan of a lot of conservative principles, but I am more a libertarian actually. I am against having my money constantly being taken from me to support causes that are not logical, feasible or sustainable in the long term. Yet, every year, it seems someone invents new ones. Like the chap in the EC that says having a vacation is a human right. The fact he wasn't laughed right out of the building says all you need to know about the idiots in the EC parliament....

To be honest there are no left winger in the US, not if you compare your policies to Europe.

[AAReagles]

To be honest there are no left winger in the US, not if you compare your policies to Europe.

Trust me, you'll see it (Left-wing lunacy) in California politics.