Banning the Burkas.

[Sonic]

I meant to post this the other day but got distracted;

Belgium have banned the veil in public and France and others are trying to follow suit. What are your thoughts on banning the full face veil?

Personally I'm against the ban. I do not understand their reasons for wearing one, but surely it is their choice to, as they see it, respect their religion.

On the Radio today a chap from UKIP (UK independance party) was advocating a ban in this country too, saying that people feared the veil. Is this true?

[Dave B]

I think it's outmoded idea, increasingly worn by women looking to score a political point or to make a statement, but if somebody wishes to wear one that's their lookout.

My only stipulation would be that they respect calls to remove it for security reasons, the same way as motorcyclists are required to remove their helmets before entering most banks, for example.

[CarlMetro]

Sadly in this country it will never happen because the UK governemnt will never stand against a minority for fear of being accused as racist.

[Sonic]

I think it's outmoded idea, increasingly worn by women looking to score a political point or to make a statement, but if somebody wishes to wear one that's their lookout.

Oh I agree. I don't see/understand their reasons for covering themselves but if we live in a free society we can't shove our outlook on the world on others. Either everyone is free to express them as they wish (as long as they are within the law) or no one can.



My only stipulation would be that they respect calls to remove it for security reasons, the same way as motorcyclists are required to remove their helmets before entering most banks, for example.

I agree. If it needs to be done in private or whatever to respect their religion then steps should be taken to allow that to happen. To ban it outright just seems incredible in our suposed enlighten western world.

[fandango]

...... My only stipulation would be that they respect calls to remove it for security reasons, the same way as motorcyclists are required to remove their helmets before entering most banks, for example.

That makes sense. Perhaps the most sensitive place is secondary school. Religious tolerance should be part of any education, but there are also practical reasons for not wearing it in the classroom, as it makes the teachers' already difficult job more challenging. But it's difficult to know where to draw the line. Perhaps it shouldn't be allowed during class, but could be allowed outside of class time. I don't really know....

[Sonic]

That makes sense. Perhaps the most sensitive place is secondary school. Religious tolerance should be part of any education, but there are also practical reasons for not wearing it in the classroom, as it makes the teachers' already difficult job more challenging. But it's difficult to know where to draw the line. Perhaps it shouldn't be allowed during class, but could be allowed outside of class time. I don't really know....

That's something I'd not considered.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

UKIP wants to ban it. So much for the thread the fousto posted claiming that conservatives are less likely to want the mention of religion silenced.

[fandango]

Funny, the ad that pops up on my computer along with this thread is for International Muslim Matrimonials, with the rather enticing (for someone, I suppose) invitation to "Browse photos now"....

[driveace]

The big problem here is that one of the killers of a Bradford policewomen,escaped from this country whilst the police were looking all over for him ,by dressing as a woman in a Burka,and flew out to Pakistan.,and as already mentioned,if motorcyclists must remove their helmet before entering banks etc,then why not everybody?
If I had a really stunning looking partner,then I would like all to see how attractive,she was,not to hide her away from all eyes.
I can see it happening in other country's too ,beside France and Belgium.

[airshifter]

Firstly, a burqa does not cover a persons face. A hijab covers the hair and part of the face, and a niqab covers just about all but the eyes.

I would hope that in a modern day and time people could find a middle ground and a ways for identification without intruding on religious principles. Nothing stops me from growing a long beard and moustache, yet people worry about clothing which can be removed for identification.

For women that are devout followers of Islam they do not desire the attention based on physical attributes, regardless of their looks or lack of. They wish to be judged more on their character and wisdom. Covering all but their eyes is a display of piety.


It amazes me that the so called "open minded" countries seem to be the first trying to ban such things.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sadly in this country it will never happen because the UK governemnt will never stand against a minority for fear of being accused as racist.

They do all the time..just not THAT minority....

This is where political correctness is madness....where people are intimidated into not acting in the best way to help the nation. That said, in THIS particular case, I am against it. I hate the Burka..but the extermists will use THIS (moreso than the military actions in the Middle East) as the example that hits home to the common Muslim. We have a society based on freedom of religion and speech in most of the western world. Now you have politicians messing with that. Great...what message are they sending?

I cant count the number of people who have written on the subject over here, and most who understand what is going on with Islam will tell you that the one giant fear they have used against them is that the Westerners hate them and their religion. The Muslims on some level maybe understand the military in the Middle East and Afghanistan. They will however use this "persecution" to intimidate the moderates and rational Muslims to come to their way of thinking. The extremists will always hate the West, but by banning the Burka, the moderates will start to swing over to doubt over the system they believed would protect their religious freedoms.

To a Muslim, even a moderate, religion is a very serious part of their soul, and we cannot mess with that over something trivial as that. It is funny, most of the nations banning the burka are run by people who chastise the Americans as paranoid about Muslim terrorism. Yet just this last week, we saw evidence that America still has a bullseye on it from radical Islam.

[gadjo_dilo]

I can't understand a thing: so much fuss about the muslim veil but not a bit of concern about women who these days show " too much ". :laugh:

Probably the next stupid step will be the banning of nun clothes outside the monastery. :laugh:

[Sonic]

Firstly, a burqa does not cover a persons face. A hijab covers the hair and part of the face, and a niqab covers just about all but the eyes.

I would hope that in a modern day and time people could find a middle ground and a ways for identification without intruding on religious principles. Nothing stops me from growing a long beard and moustache, yet people worry about clothing which can be removed for identification.

For women that are devout followers of Islam they do not desire the attention based on physical attributes, regardless of their looks or lack of. They wish to be judged more on their character and wisdom. Covering all but their eyes is a display of piety.


It amazes me that the so called "open minded" countries seem to be the first trying to ban such things.

:up:

This will only make hard working, peaceful Muslims angry with the west - even those who currently choose not to cover themselves.
I just can't understand what planet those who want to ban it are on.

[fandango]

Probably the next stupid step will be the banning of nun clothes outside the monastery. :laugh:

It's better not to get into bad habits... ;)

[CarlMetro]

:laugh:

[Bob Riebe]

Firstly, a burqa does not cover a persons face. A hijab covers the hair and part of the face, and a niqab covers just about all but the eyes.
.The hijab and niqab are head covers; the burqa covers the whole body.

[Easy Drifter]

I consider a total ban to be an overreaction.
However I do feel the open face must be present at times for ID.
Passport Photos, Security ID, especially airports, Drivers Licenses, or any photo ID, to vote and so on requiring the uncovering is reasonable in todays world.

[ioan]

For women that are devout followers of Islam they do not desire the attention based on physical attributes, regardless of their looks or lack of. They wish to be judged more on their character and wisdom. Covering all but their eyes is a display of piety.

Do you believe that anyone can be devoted to a religion that treats them worse than dogs?
Most of those Muslim women wear these outdated pieces of crap because they have to or else they fear for their lives and that's why I find it a great move to ban these wherever it is possible.

[Lousada]

I cant count the number of people who have written on the subject over here, and most who understand what is going on with Islam will tell you that the one giant fear they have used against them is that the Westerners hate them and their religion. The Muslims on some level maybe understand the military in the Middle East and Afghanistan. They will however use this "persecution" to intimidate the moderates and rational Muslims to come to their way of thinking. The extremists will always hate the West, but by banning the Burka, the moderates will start to swing over to doubt over the system they believed would protect their religious freedoms.

To a Muslim, even a moderate, religion is a very serious part of their soul, and we cannot mess with that over something trivial as that. It is funny, most of the nations banning the burka are run by people who chastise the Americans as paranoid about Muslim terrorism. Yet just this last week, we saw evidence that America still has a bullseye on it from radical Islam.

This is an oversimplification of the situation. You can't label all the Muslims and say "they will do this or that". There are many different variations of Islam, just like there are many different sorts of Cristianity.
In many Muslim countries they actually view burqa-wearers the same as we do: as attractions and also as extremists. Burqas are already banned in countries like Tunisia and Turkey. That the western world allows it is the real crazy part.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This is an oversimplification of the situation. You can't label all the Muslims and say "they will do this or that". There are many different variations of Islam, just like there are many different sorts of Cristianity.
In many Muslim countries they actually view burqa-wearers the same as we do: as attractions and also as extremists. Burqas are already banned in countries like Tunisia and Turkey. That the western world allows it is the real crazy part.


Simplifying it? Maybe...but the point is you look at how many of the terrorist converts are not from the poor in the Middle East, but are often immigrants or 1st generation Muslims from families who came west for a better life in a democracy. These converts look at Western society, and see it as "evil" and go to join the Jihad. These kids, or young men often have families, money, education, and are NOT born into this radical class. Yet...when they see the west "attack" Islam's culture...THEY overreact.

The point is, and it should be stated over and over again. IN the last 10 years, the most militant, effective and open terrorist threat to the West and its democratic freedoms is coming from the adherents of radical Islam. So to attack any form of Islam over the trivial helps fuel their arguments...

I am not advocating we turn a blind eye to terrorism and not call it for what it is. Obama has, it is is clear it hasn't changed a thing...but you should also be consistent. Religious freedoms dictate Muslim headscraves and women being in Burka's should be tolerated. I dislike it, I don't like it, and I think women who succumb to this have to be pretty much brainwashed BUT ...everyone has to be free to be what they are as long as they don't attack society.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Do you believe that anyone can be devoted to a religion that treats them worse than dogs?
Most of those Muslim women wear these outdated pieces of crap because they have to or else they fear for their lives and that's why I find it a great move to ban these wherever it is possible.

I agree...but you ban them, you say to the moderate Muslims that you dislike part of their religion..and they will react. It is a tricky line.....

[christophulus]

I agree that the veil/niqab should be outlawed. It's hardly helping with "integration" if you go around hiding your face, whatever the reason. At the very least they should be removed in shops etc, it's almost impossible to hear what someone is asking for if their mouth is covered.

Otherwise, headscarves and full length coverings are fair enough in my view, as long as your face is on show.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree that the veil/niqab should be outlawed. It's hardly helping with "integration" if you go around hiding your face, whatever the reason. At the very least they should be removed in shops etc, it's almost impossible to hear what someone is asking for if their mouth is covered.

Otherwise, headscarves and full length coverings are fair enough in my view, as long as your face is on show.

I don't want it outlawed. However, officialdom has to see the face of the wearer. Also, Store owners can discriminate in this case too.....

See...there are ways to make the point without changing laws...

[airshifter]

Do you believe that anyone can be devoted to a religion that treats them worse than dogs?
Most of those Muslim women wear these outdated pieces of crap because they have to or else they fear for their lives and that's why I find it a great move to ban these wherever it is possible.

That has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever seen on this forum. In countries where the women are oppressed it's mostly due to cultural tradition, not the Muslim religion.

Based on the actual religion, Muslim women were given more authority and more rights much earlier than those of the more "modern and civilized" world, when women had to fight for equal rights many, many years later.

[airshifter]

It's better not to get into bad habits... ;)

You know how it is with those ladies. All or nun.

[bluegem280]

They have to follow standard rules in condition some of which require the face uncovered such as taking photograph for ID card or driving license. Consequently they have to do the same for identification if officials need to make sure their face and the ID are match. They should not consider this as an act of insult.

I will respect women who cover their whole body with burqa, it's their choice. We will not find them too much walking on the street, hang out in stores or malls. They don't go out of home unless if they have to. So they will not create deformity or discontent that may need regulation to ban them or a rule they have to abide by. They can talk behind the cover, they talk or write anything carefully, to hear what they say we should listen to them carefully... ;)

[71minus2]

i got into a dispute at Stansted airport the other month when a Muslim "woman" i say "woman" as it wasnt clear due to full on body covering complete with letterbox passed through passport/security without being asked to remove it. I was asked to remove my coat and enquired why i had to do this yet the potential male terrorist behind me was just left to pass through unchecked.

The response i got was "coat please sir" which i duly gave and moved along.

The conversation was loud enough for others to hear, nobody gave me a funny look or said anything about me being racist.

Ban them now! Especially in airports for the sake of nervous air travellers like me!

[gadjo_dilo]

Do you believe that anyone can be devoted to a religion that treats them worse than dogs?.

Since this religion is so spread on earth for so many years than I believe it may have devoted followers.


Most of those Muslim women wear these outdated pieces of crap because they have to or else they fear for their lives and that's why I find it a great move to ban these wherever it is possible.

I still can't understand why you're so bothered by these clothes. Just because they're not fashionable?

[edv]

airshifter is correct...this is a cultural issue, not a religious one. It basically comes down to the women having to cover up due to the jealousy and weakness of men.

[Mark in Oshawa]

i got into a dispute at Stansted airport the other month when a Muslim "woman" i say "woman" as it wasnt clear due to full on body covering complete with letterbox passed through passport/security without being asked to remove it. I was asked to remove my coat and enquired why i had to do this yet the potential male terrorist behind me was just left to pass through unchecked.

The response i got was "coat please sir" which i duly gave and moved along.

The conversation was loud enough for others to hear, nobody gave me a funny look or said anything about me being racist.

Ban them now! Especially in airports for the sake of nervous air travellers like me!
That is what the politcal correctness of the planet has given you...

Remember that when you vote today..