Mini in WRC 2011

[ProRally]

According to this link, its official ?

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/top/topnews/d16/d/2010/04/30/bmw-gibt-gruenes-licht/index.html

Any other places where they confirm this ? Would be good to have a new make in WRC

[N.O.T]

i can smell failure already if they enter with this thing....

[TMorel]

NOT,
Does anything ever smell of roses to you? You make eeyore seem optimistic.
Are you sure you dont need a {hug} ?

[Langdale Forest]

i can smell failure already if they enter with this thing....

i have a sixth sense that tells me that Mini will fail at WRC... :rolleyes:

[N.O.T]

NOT,
Does anything ever smell of roses to you? You make eeyore seem optimistic.
Are you sure you dont need a {hug} ?

i am neither pesimistic or optimistic

I am realistic...

i would prefer a serious manufacturer to enter with a longterm plan rather than a publicity trick for 1-2 years then disappear.

[Langdale Forest]

That is pure poetry!

[J.Lindstroem]

"I am neither pesimistic or optimistic, I am realistic"

Is'nt that what all pesimistic people say to make optimistic people feel dumb?

[N.O.T]

i don;t really know that.....what i do know is, that i am not trying to sound pesimistic.

to launch a crossover car for rally purposes i think its a bit stupid....how are they going to have a low centre of gravity with this thing?

[serial jeff]

I think it'll have tough competition, but it might be okay. Doesn't matter whether or not they call it a "crossover", it's still approximately the same size as the Fiesta and significantly smaller than the Focus. It's basically just a slighter longer Mini with AWD and a raised suspension, I don't think there'll be any problem with centre of gravity.

What's tougher will be competing against the thoroughly tested Fiesta and DS3.

[Josti]

i would prefer a serious manufacturer to enter with a longterm plan rather than a publicity trick for 1-2 years then disappear.

It's not just about the manufacturer, it's also Prodrive. I think they are well capable of handling this project in all seriousness.

[gloomyDAY]

It's not just about the manufacturer, it's also Prodrive. I think they are well capable of handling this project in all seriousness.Yeah, tell that to Subaru. The last rally car ProDrive made was a complete dog.


i can smell failure already if they enter with this thing.... :laugh:

[Brother John]

i am neither pesimistic or optimistic

I am realistic...

:D To be realistic here on the forum can be dangerously!
A lot of people don´t know what that is. ;)

[Langdale Forest]

to launch a crossover car for rally purposes i think its a bit stupid....how are they going to have a low centre of gravity with this thing?

The Suzuki Sx4 was a 'crossover' car?, and that failed miserabley...

[Francis44]

The Suzuki Sx4 was a 'crossover' car?, and that failed miserabley...

Failed Miserabley?! Seriously how can you think a new manufacter can fight for top spots in it's first year, if Suzuki decided to stay some more years perhaps they would be on the pace. For all of you thinking that new manufacters will be in it's first year on speed, I can't believe you can be so naive.

Both Ford and Citroen have been running last years on top performance, new manufacters will obviously struggle to compete with them. The manufacter I can see (if entering) getting to speed quickly is Skoda and Peugeout, they have been running on a competitive championship and I am sure they have loads of info for development of the car.

So it isn't fair to judge a car performance in one year.

[Rallyper]

I don´t think the bodyshell itself is different to any other car. The crossover is made by higher(longer) springs and just fool the consumer to believe he has a Land Rover.

So why shouldn´t prodrive make a sucess with this one? The have the experience anyway, no matter what the outcome of the joint venture with Subaru ended.

[Langdale Forest]

Failed Miserabley?! Seriously how can you think a new manufacter can fight for top spots in it's first year, if Suzuki decided to stay some more years perhaps they would be on the pace. For all of you thinking that new manufacters will be in it's first year on speed, I can't believe you can be so naive.

So it isn't fair to judge a car performance in one year.

Remember the Peugot 206 WRC won both championships in its return to the WRC in 2000, although that was with Marcus Gronholm in the driving seat. :)

And remember the Citroen Xsara got on the podium after just a few rallies, altough this was with Sebastien Loeb driving. ;)

[Tom206wrc]

BMW/Mini will use services of PRODRIVE ???? Good, but what to expect against a team like Citroën Racing who assures the entire developpment/budget of the cars(look at Ford with M-Sport currently) ???? :mark:

[J.Lindstroem]

I think this thread is very full of pessi... oh sorry realism.. maybe you are right guys. But i sure hope that this will be great and i really think that prodrive has the right things to make a car work great. About the crossover thing yeah its a little bit strange, the car looks much bigger than the others but i cant wait untill the first draft of the design.

[bretddog]

Remember the Peugot 206 WRC won both championships in its return to the WRC in 2000, although that was with Marcus Gronholm in the driving seat. :)

And remember the Citroen Xsara got on the podium after just a few rallies, altough this was with Sebastien Loeb driving. ;)

Obviously both fantastic driver's. But there is one common factor, or should you say a relentless genius engineer behind both those cars; Jean-Claude Vaucard. You don't just burp up the best WRC cars of your era because you badly want to. You need some freakin talent and a clever brain behind it, among other things.

But of course one can hope the DS3 may not be dominant right off the bat.

[bretddog]

..or was he just involved in the 205, not 206? maybe I'm a bit mistaken here.. anyway, it's not a walk in the park.

[Josti]

Yeah, tell that to Subaru. The last rally car ProDrive made was a complete dog.

Well, not everything lasts. But I on the other hand remember a long period when Prodrive Subaru was competitive and successful.

[N.O.T]

I am not trying to diminish prodive, BMW or anyone involved in the project....the thing is i see 3 things that they have failure written all over them

1. The mini crossover is the wrong car to go with...the mini itself would be a better choice

2. I see only rumours so far for an involvement in the 2011...thats 7 months from now....no testing not even a plan (long or short term)

3. BMW a car collosus are tipped to use one of their sub manufacturers for their involvment... we know how thats usually ends from previous examples.

and for those who are going to argue with the old "So NOT you know far better than BMW and prodrive when it comes to rallying" the answer is.... yes i do.

[Juha_Koo]

and for those who are going to argue with the old "So NOT you know far better than BMW and prodrive when it comes to rallying" the answer is.... yes i do.

http://open.salon.com/blog/pretend_farmer/2008/08/11/files/bush_laugh1218473430.jpg

[Langdale Forest]

I am not trying to diminish prodive, BMW or anyone involved in the project....the thing is i see 3 things that they have failure written all over them

1. The mini crossover is the wrong car to go with...the mini itself would be a better choice



You have never diminished anyone. :rolleyes:

Prehaps the smaller Mini would be too small for S2000 regulations?


http://open.salon.com/blog/pretend_farmer/2008/08/11/files/bush_laugh1218473430.jpg


:rotflmao:

[Rallyper]

I am not trying to diminish prodive, BMW or anyone involved in the project....the thing is i see 3 things that they have failure written all over them

1. The mini crossover is the wrong car to go with...the mini itself would be a better choice

2. I see only rumours so far for an involvement in the 2011...thats 7 months from now....no testing not even a plan (long or short term)

3. BMW a car collosus are tipped to use one of their sub manufacturers for their involvment... we know how thats usually ends from previous examples.

and for those who are going to argue with the old "So NOT you know far better than BMW and prodrive when it comes to rallying" the answer is.... yes i do.

N.O.T: Sorry you´re wrong here:

1) The bodyshell is just good, wait and see.
2) Everything must not be written on first page in London Herald or Kerdos to be ongoing. Very much happens as you probably know in the boarder rooms nowadays. Even this project is a way too make money.
3) With BMW backing it must be just what is needed to go rallying.

When it comes to rallying there are many more experts than you can imagine... :cool:

[N.O.T]

N.O.T: Sorry you´re wrong here:

1) The bodyshell is just good, wait and see.
2) Everything must not be written on first page in London Herald or Kerdos to be ongoing. Very much happens as you probably know in the boarder rooms nowadays. Even this project is a way too make money.
3) With BMW backing it must be just what is needed to go rallying.

When it comes to rallying there are many more experts than you can imagine... :cool:

1. no

2. citoren spent 2 years developing/testing the c4 before entering same for xsara so nope

3. no

experts yes...people who are right very few.

[Langdale Forest]

experts yes...people who are right very few.

You are an expert at entertaining people, and that is a good thing. :)

[HaCo]

I must agree with NOT about the crossover. Not only it is ugly, it doesn't have much Mini anymore.

[Rallyper]

I must agree with NOT about the crossover. Not only it is ugly, it doesn't have much Mini anymore.

Be patient. Let´s wait and see.

Why must you guys turn down something that might bring one more manufacturers team to the WRC?

Isn´t that what we all discussed a while ago?

[N.O.T]

Be patient. Let´s wait and see.

Why must you guys turn down something that might bring one more manufacturers team to the WRC?

Isn´t that what we all discussed a while ago?

between 1 manufacturer with no future that will just come and go... and no manufacturer i prefer the second.

[Rallyper]

between 1 manufacturer with no future that will just come and go... and no manufacturer i prefer the second.

Now you said it yourself - you´re not a realist. Only pessimist.

And that is not what the sport needs.

For me any manufacturer joining the WRC is better than noone does. Or you might prefer Citroen-WRC-Cup??

[N.O.T]

yes i would prefer a lineup of 10 citorens and 10 fords instead of 2 citroens 2 fords and the rest of different manufacturers with no chance of winning....

what would you prefer ?? PG in a citroen or PG in a suzuki/mini/hyundai in order to have more manufacturers ?

and how i know that mini will fail....well all the signs are there...no testing/no development no official info...just rumours...so if it happens in 2011 it will FAIL.

[J.Lindstroem]

I agree with you NOT i would rather have 10 citroens and 10 fords, but these only seems to hire Wilsons and Rautenbachs and raikkonens and Blocks... It sucks!

Maybe it will be different next year though. I dont know. Is 1,6T really cheaper than Wrc so can we really expekt something else than this money money money and no talent thing?

[Langdale Forest]

I don't know why people are so nagative about Kimmi Raikkonen, when in turkey he got a 5th place finish, in only his 5th WRC event.

It is a real shame that Duval does not have a drive, he is a talanted driver who keeps on crashing, rather like Latvala.

If Duval stayed with Ford in 2005 onwrds, he could have been world champion by now considering all the podiums he got towards the end of 2004. His win in Australia 2005 was well deserved, but what impresses me the most was his exellent performance on the opening day of Rally Germany 2007, he was faster than Loeb on his return to the WRC in and old Xsara, and Loeb was in a C4!

And although it is always good to have more manufactures, the good drivers like Duval should always be in the better teams.

[koko0703]

I don't have problem with the cross-over in the WRC but I wonder if the 4-door hatchback is a good choice for a rally car. 206, Xsara (coupe may be right term than hatchback), Focus, and C4 are all 2-door hatchback. Compared to those, 4-door hatchbacks like Fabia, Impreza (2008 model), and SX4 all struggled to keep up with 2-door hatchback. Oh and all these team end in withdrawal from the championship. I'm no strutural engineer but just get the impression that the 4-door hatchback doesn't have enough stiffness.

[Motorsportfun]

The Suzuki Sx4 was a 'crossover' car?, and that failed miserabley...

Cant believe someone thinks that. :rolleyes:

At the end of the 1st year, with budget cuts (Andersson has 2 rallies paid, the rest was covered by PGs sponsors) and internal team changes, they reached results around the top-five. Was that miserable?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[janvanvurpa]

I don't have problem with the cross-over in the WRC but I wonder if the 4-door hatchback is a good choice for a rally car. 206, Xsara (coupe may be right term than hatchback), Focus, and C4 are all 2-door hatchback. Compared to those, 4-door hatchbacks like Fabia, Impreza (2008 model), and SX4 all struggled to keep up with 2-door hatchback. Oh and all these team end in withdrawal from the championship. I'm no strutural engineer but just get the impression that the 4-door hatchback doesn't have enough stiffness.

The rather extensive cage welding in and attached in 20-30 points out to negate and initial structural issues.
Seriously for the last 20+ years all cars are, aside from the coupe where people sit, extremely flimsily built, and since corrorsion and paint processes are better, and rot not a much of an issue as in the past, the thickness of the metal is amazingly thin..

I take it you've never had to stitch weld a modern car... they are all wafer thin.
As such the cage and local doubling and gusseting OUGHT to make the torsional rigidity the same for any bodyshell structure.
I would look elsewhere than just 2 door or 4.

(I actually do weld shells and install cages in cars for rally, but mostly nicer older cars for clubbies)

[miksu]

yup, next year will probably be crappy for them if they enter. There's a chance theyll become new suzuki if they dont put enough funds to the program and next year is too soon for a new car that hasnt even run yet (?)

[Maui J.]

All I can say is bring it on!
The Citroen/Ford show is getting a little tedious. Variety is the spice of life.
If they struggle in their first year I don't really care. You can only improve by doing. IMO, having an top driver in a Mini or any other new manufacturer that may not be on the pace as the big guns, will still be more entertaining than watching a B driver make up the numbers in a top spec car.

[N.O.T]

what is the difference between a b class driver in a top spec car and a top class driver in a b class car ?? the results will still not be there....

and what makes you think that mini/BMW/prodrive will have the budget to pay for a top spec driver ??

nobody will ever expect mini to be competitive on their 1st year...not even their second....but i doubt if its going to be able to manage and be ahead of the citroen junior team.

[Maui J.]

what is the difference between a b class driver in a top spec car and a top class driver in a b class car ?? the results will still not be there....

and what makes you think that mini/BMW/prodrive will have the budget to pay for a top spec driver ??

nobody will ever expect mini to be competitive on their 1st year...not even their second....but i doubt if its going to be able to manage and be ahead of the citroen junior team.

Did I mention results? I mentioned variety and being entertained by something different than the usual suspects.

...and obviously you know they don't have the budget because you have access to all financial records at BMW and Prodrive.
With limited seats available and many top drivers out of a job, I seem to think it won't be too expensive or difficult to find the right drivers for the job.

[Gard]

I am not trying to diminish prodive, BMW or anyone involved in the project....the thing is i see 3 things that they have failure written all over them

1. The mini crossover is the wrong car to go with...the mini itself would be a better choice

2. I see only rumours so far for an involvement in the 2011...thats 7 months from now....no testing not even a plan (long or short term)

3. BMW a car collosus are tipped to use one of their sub manufacturers for their involvment... we know how thats usually ends from previous examples.

and for those who are going to argue with the old "So NOT you know far better than BMW and prodrive when it comes to rallying" the answer is.... yes i do.

1. Why? what's the difference.

2. A version of the Mini has already been tested

And 2011 rules are very different to what the SX4 was up against.

The success of this project, is down to how the project is run and how good engineers they get.

[Daniel]

I agree with NOT. No testing now would mean they will be pretty sucky in 2011

[Walach]

Well mate, but remember that if you don´t know about something, so it does not necessarily mean that it doesn´t exist :) Maybe they are testing somewhere in wasteland for a long time yet :D
And don´t forget Fiesta S2000 project, it was really similar. Talking about from everywhere, but first pictures of car was sometimes in autumn... :)

[Daniel]

Well mate, but remember that if you don´t know about something, so it does not necessarily mean that it doesn´t exist :) Maybe they are testing somewhere in wasteland for a long time yet :D
And don´t forget Fiesta S2000 project, it was really similar. Talking about from everywhere, but first pictures of car was sometimes in autumn... :)
Meh, I don't buy that argument. Things will always get out, shells will be spotted etc etc etc.