Anybody got a spare 3.2 million in their pockets?

[Scotty G.]

Sounds like RHR needs the tooth fairy to show soon, or his Indy Car season will be over. :( And he is not making any prize money either. As PT said in another forum today, "that is not a job". He's right.

My question is, why the hell does it cost $400,000 a race to field 1 car? For a series with most of its races on Versus? With the ROI (or lack there of) for sponsors? With NOBODY watching? With old cars and old equipment? With spec engines?

400K? Why? It makes NO sense, for things to cost that much in a sport like Indy Car of 2010.


Unless the costs come WAY down IN A HURRY, all of this supposed "momentum" is not going to last and the sport will go nowhere.

[TURN3]

Sounds like RHR needs the tooth fairy to show soon, or his Indy Car season will be over. :( And he is not making any prize money either. As PT said in another forum today, "that is not a job". He's right.

My question is, why the hell does it cost $400,000 a race to field 1 car? For a series with most of its races on Versus? With the ROI (or lack there of) for sponsors? With NOBODY watching? With old cars and old equipment? With spec engines?

400K? Why? It makes NO sense, for things to cost that much in a sport like Indy Car of 2010.


Unless the costs come WAY down IN A HURRY, all of this supposed "momentum" is not going to last and the sport will go nowhere.

Scotty, as mis-guided and wrong as you most often are, you couldn't be more correct here. Absolutely, "why" with all the factors you have listed.

BTW, what "other" forum did you read a post by PT? Would you PM me please?

[markabilly]

Well IRL supposedly gives 80 k per race....

me I had no idea...... I read a few years ago, some one went to indy and raced for about a total cost of 175k as a one shot deal, including the renting of car and engines, all as a simple one shot deal over the whole month.

I figured the cars would cost about 400k with an engine, add in a transporter at about 100k, some electronic stuff, get some volunteers to help out as crew, add in some salaried folks as the pros on the crew, split that over ten races and then sell the stuff at the end for about 50 cents on the dollar, .... but that adds up a net cost of 400k per race??

My, Nascar must look appealling....

[Chris R]

I am with Scotty on this one too - that is a crazy amount of money for what it is... I understand that is what it takes to win - but that is just plain nuts..... They need the series where $2 million will run a top notch single car team and 3.5 will run two cars for the whole season - all included... and someone could make it work with a million and - the public is fast losing its taste for such frivolous uses of money (unless of course it is REALLLYYY cool.....in which case they don't care...

[Jag_Warrior]

Mark this day in history: everybody (including me) is agreeing with Scotty G. :eek:

Along with Will Power, Ryan Hunter-Reay has been a breath of fresh air all season. If some way isn't found to keep him in that (or some) competitive seat, while scrubs and hack ride buyers clog up the field, this is a joke... without a punchline.


And it ain't lookin' good. :(

Hunter-Reay has the unwavering support of Izod, which sponsors his car, but Andretti said Izod officials have told him they have committed all the money they can. So has the team.

"I'm maxed out," said Andretti, who bought full control of the team in November. "I can't carry this through the rest of the season."

Andretti said it costs about $400,000 per race to compete at the highest level, which means $4 million is needed to continue after Texas. IndyCar guarantees full-time cars about $80,000 per race, which would provide $800,000.

Ryan Hunter-Reay: U.S. driver excels in IndyCar Series, but will it last? (http://www.indystar.com/article/20100501/SPORTS0107/5010329/-1/LIVING06/Ryan-Hunter-Reay-U.S.-driver-excels-in-IndyCar-Series-but-will-it-last?source=pn_s)

[Mark in Oshawa]

If this series is costing 400k a race...then we might as well shut the doors now....

I suspect a lot of this is hyperbole...


It may be a lot per race...but it likely can be done for less than that. If Roger Penske is spending that much to participate...it must be love..because he has never done this to lose money.....

[bzcam]

Sounds like RHR needs the tooth fairy to show soon, or his Indy Car season will be over. :( And he is not making any prize money either. As PT said in another forum today, "that is not a job". He's right.

I'll spring for it. But in order for me to pay, RHR has to renounce his US citizenship and take on some hard to pronounce and impossible to spell foreign name. Then he'll fit right in with the IRL (where the I apparently stands for International) and he'll do just fine.

Ir Ryan, vencer a grande corrida para o lar terra!

BZ

[anthonyvop]

Racing, especially at that level, is an expensive sport.
When a set of tires run about $2000 and then using about 8 sets a weekend it adds up.
Shocks, Springs, Gears are practically disposable items, Salaries, Haulers, Motorhome, Pit Box....INSURANCE.
Just the safety gear for the pit crew costs $10K plus.

It adds up quickly.

[Easy Drifter]

Tony is so right.
There is a myramid of things that add up in a hurry.
Fuel for the haulers, car rentals, motel/hotel, food for crew, dry cleaning/laundry, air fare for some of the crew, hospitality, internet fees, telephone, air freight, courier fees, pr & office staff salaries, tools, spare parts not to say shop rental, heating, power, often water plus expensive machine shop equipment.
Dozens of other misc. expenses.

[garyshell]

Tony is so right.
There is a myramid of things that add up in a hurry.
Fuel for the haulers, car rentals, motel/hotel, food for crew, dry cleaning/laundry, air fare for some of the crew, hospitality, internet fees, telephone, air freight, courier fees, pr & office staff salaries, tools, spare parts not to say shop rental, heating, power, often water plus expensive machine shop equipment.
Dozens of other misc. expenses.

I am not suggesting you are wrong, but has anyone actually seen a budget breakdown for a team? I am really curious about the specifics of where $400,000 goes. That works out to $7,200,000 per season. I understand it costs a lot. I just want to understand WHY.

Gary

[vintage]

I think that around 7 million is probably the going rate to run with a team like AA for a year. Yes, you might be able to run with Sarah Fisher or Coyne for 3 million, but you're not going to get a sniff of victory circle.

[Easy Drifter]

Just hotel costs for a 1 car team would run from low of about $70,000 to $120,00+ for the year. Remember there are test days in addition to the races and if you are not based in Indianapolis at least 2 weeks there in a hotel. Add in meals of up to $40 or $50 thousand a year for the crew while on the road.
It could easily be higher and you can see how costs add up in a hurry.

[garyshell]

Just hotel costs for a 1 car team would run from low of about $70,000 to $120,00+ for the year. Remember there are test days in addition to the races and if you are not based in Indianapolis at least 2 weeks there in a hotel. Add in meals of up to $40 or $50 thousand a year for the crew while on the road.
It could easily be higher and you can see how costs add up in a hurry.


I am really serious about wanting to get a handle on an estimated budget and propose a Google docs spreadsheet. If anyone else is interested in playing along, I'll put together the spreadsheet and post a link.

So let's assume an 18 race season with two official test dates. Let's also assume this is a full blown two car effort. How many folks are taken on the road for a race weekend for BOTH cars? How many for a test session, again for both cars? Further let's assume the worst case and the team is NOT based at Indy. How many folks are there for the full two week cycle?

Gary

[anthonyvop]

I have worked for some teams and familiar with budgets but none were IRL.

Lets make it a project.

This would be the bare minimum for a race weekend for a one car team.

1-Owner
1-Crew Chief
1-Engineer
1-Spotter
6-Pit Crew(doubling as mechanics)
1-Driver Hauler
1-Driver Motor-home
1-Driver
1-P.R.

I have left off some as not really essential but don't forget a gopher, a cook and a Physical therapist/masseuse.

Now add up transportation, Housing, food, salary, uniforms, insurance..ect.

[Easy Drifter]

There are people on the forum more qualified than I on the numbers but I think you can figure on a bare minimum of 10 crew per car, excluding driver.
That would apply at test sessions too. Probably 12 to 14, counting the engineers.
I was also figuring on 2 crew to a room in hotels.
Figure on 3 to 5 nights in a hotel per race weekend. 3 nights on a two day event and 5 on a three.
Also have to figure in on the road costs for the truck drivers. At least 2 transporters for a two car team. Probably a team motor home.
Fly away costs for Japan and Brazil. Longer periods there in Hotels.
Depends on where a team is based to which races many of the crew will drive or if they will fly. Team principals, drivers and probably engineers will fly either First Class or Business. Regular crew not travelling with the cars Economy. Some teams will use private jets.
Back in the day I usually flew Economy but ocasionally First Class.
At Hotels not near major cities costs will likely be less. Places like Long Beach, Miami, Toronto, Edmonton and so on high. Sometimes deals can be made.
Good luck trying to sort it out!
MDS probably can help out if he will.
My actual pro experience is 30 years out of date now.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't doubt this series is expensive, and racing is expensive...but again, if this series is costing 400k to race ONE race in, and the average paying position is about a quarter of that...and there are no sponsors...then maybe about 17 cars out there are losing money.

The stat I heard was GP2 costs less and provides better racing. Now it is Europe, and there is a different economics to an extent, but I still think Penske or Ganassi is spending 400k a race but I don't believe Sarah Fisher or Bachelart are spending any where close to that per race.

It shows in the finishes I would expect, but racing isn't a socialist deal...who spends the most money usually is competitive...

[markabilly]

well I would think what does the average to below average team spend?

Compare that with Nascar, per race and for the entire series.
I think that would highlight things a bit better.

I do not know the numbers

One thing that cut costs in europe is the fact thaat there are so many different tracks that would fit in an area the size of texas(the area between London, Barrcelona, Rome and Berlin back to London, would easily fit inside Texas (a state with only one major track----TMS), where as the USA is very spread out, so travel costs would add up quick.

To say nothing about these foreign races like in Canada.... :D

[Easy Drifter]

Just because our dollar is worth as much and sometimes more than your's. :eek: :D :D :p :

[anthonyvop]

The stat I heard was GP2 costs less and provides better racing. Now it is Europe, and there is a different economics to an extent,

That reminds me of another issue.....Taxes.

Believe it or not the US has one of the Highest Corporate tax rates in the world.

It all adds up.

[vintage]

GP2 budgets are around one to 1.2 million euro.

[Mark in Oshawa]

well I would think what does the average to below average team spend?

Compare that with Nascar, per race and for the entire series.
I think that would highlight things a bit better.

I do not know the numbers

One thing that cut costs in europe is the fact thaat there are so many different tracks that would fit in an area the size of texas(the area between London, Barrcelona, Rome and Berlin back to London, would easily fit inside Texas (a state with only one major track----TMS), where as the USA is very spread out, so travel costs would add up quick.

To say nothing about these foreign races like in Canada.... :D

Balance that off a little though. First off, London to Barcelona to Rome and Berlin would swallow up a few Texas's.....I know this only based on my buddy who is from the UK who drove truck in Europe. So they do travel a bit further than you think. That said, you are correct, it still isn't the distances the teams travel here.

Europe though is a much more expensive place, from meals, the price of fuel, and just the redtape of employing people there. It is still a higher tax regime than the US.

My point is, I don't believe the 400k per race figure for the IRL, and while I am not naive, I think a lot of teams are getting by with less, and when I see Tagliani buy basically his own team and operate it and get good finishes..(not great but good), I know it is possible to do more with less. Just means though you wont beat Penske and Ganassi. Well...that isn't anything new.

[vintage]

I believe that Joe Gibbs gets $20 million from Mars for Kyle Busch.

[Jag_Warrior]

I believe that Joe Gibbs gets $20 million from Mars for Kyle Busch.

I don't know the precise figure, but that wouldn't surprise me. NASCAR operates on the premise that AOWR used to operate on: teams selling sponsorships based on the value of the sponsorship, not based on (the bare minimum of) what it takes to run the program. One (former) NASCAR team owner in my area raked in so much cash from his primary sponsor that he siphoned off some of the money and bought a large farm. He rolled it into the building of a new shop and that's how he justified it. Imagine if Apple Computer or Mercedes priced their products based on nothing more than the cost. But even worse, imagine if the perceived value of their products was LESS than the cost of production. That seems to be the situation that AOWR has been in for the past decade +.

I would have to go back and find the story (maybe someone else here has a better memory than I do), but Carl Haas gave an interview a few years ago where he mentioned that when Mario and Nigel were running for his team, his budget for the two car team was around $30 million a year. It sounds like a foreign concept now, but the top teams used to actually turn a profit... like they do in NASCAR and Formula One. Joe Gibbs Racing turns a profit (I'm sure). McLaren turns a profit (strictly on the racing side), I'm sure. And at least in the case of the top NASCAR sponsors, Forbes ran a piece a couple of years ago which detailed the ROI factors. Several, Budweiser for one, had a factor above 4. For every $1 they put into NASCAR, they were seeing a return of $4. This was back when CCWS still existed. I can't recall that there was a single AOWR sponsor that did much more than break even. Maybe Argent Mortgage (with Danica), but I can't recall - and a lot of good that did them anyway.

IMO, what's particularly sad about Ryan Hunter-Reay's situation, and that of Andretti, is that after he won Long Beach, things went from bad to worse. According to Andretti, the deals that did have some promise apparently dried up.

[markabilly]

Balance that off a little though. First off, London to Barcelona to Rome and Berlin would swallow up a few Texas's.....I know this only based on my buddy who is from the UK who drove truck in Europe. .
Actually that diagram fits very easily inside Texas, have to twist it a little bit, but not too much--it is only 600 miles to berlin, ... 700 miles from berlin to Rome, and from rome to barcelona, it is 500 miles...and back to london about 700 or so....

And inside that area there are a great number of great race tracks....
OTOH, dallas to el paso is about 650 miles, to waskom from Dallas about 200 or so, from waskom to el paso about 850, from Houston to el paso about 750 miles; from Houston to amarillo about 650 miles..... and one major track (and I do not think it has a road course, just an oval).....

places like this all over the usa, that do not even have one track :(

No one should wonder why there are some great road racers who come from Europe, but one should wonder why, there are as many as we do have, who do show up from the usa..... :(

[anthonyvop]

Sounds about right. So, double it and you're still at 2.4 mill and not at 4 mil plus per car.
Can't really compare GP2 with the ICS.

The GP2 Series is a true spec series. Except for wing angles and suspension set-up there is little you can do with the cars. Also testing is very restricted.

Racing costs money!!!! Big Money.
If you want multiple chassis and engines then you better be prepared to pay through the nose.

If you want inexpensive racing then spec is the way to go......but then you have another "driver development series"

[Scotty G.]

Racing costs money!!!! Big Money.



Yes, it does.

But it shouldn't take anywhere near as much money as it does today, in a spec series, with nobody watching on TV.

NASCAR gets the sponsorship, because they have fans and a product that people want to see and sponsors can get decent ROI on.

Indy Car gets no sponsorship, because they have no fans and a product that nobody wants to see and sponsors get less then zero ROI on.

[Jag_Warrior]

That's for 36 races a year, not 16. Also for more infrastructure to support a 36 race effort and the extra personnel for same. Not to mention the Gibbs effort is more in line with Penske than the average IRL team.

But also keep in mind that he's just talking about the primary sponsor. In addition to the $20 million (or whatever) they're getting from the primary, major associate sponsorships are in the $4-$5 million range.

We used to make fun of them on here. But swing by any of the shops in or around Charlotte/Concord: the NASCAR boys are livin' large these days. Judging by what they pay guys who don't do much more than sweep the floor and the toys (oh, the TOYS!) that fill the shops and parking lots, the sponsorship amounts being demanded in NASCAR (at the top) seem based more on what the market will bear, and not on what it takes just to get by.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Can't really compare GP2 with the ICS.

The GP2 Series is a true spec series. Except for wing angles and suspension set-up there is little you can do with the cars. Also testing is very restricted.
Other than the testing, that pretty much seems to be what we have now...you show up with a Dallara with either an speedway package or a regular package, and you cant do much with it. No work on the motors, no chassis development or options really.

I think the places money is spent in the IRL now is just polishing the last few thousands of a second off per lap and only the big teams have the money to get those final fractions of a second.




If you want inexpensive racing then spec is the way to go......but then you have another "driver development series"

No one is calling a spec series anything worth watching. IRL ratings nose dived when the general public I think figured out that all the cars were basically locked into a strict formula. When you couldn't tell a G-Force apart from a Dallara, that was the beginning of the end..

[nigelred5]

Actually that diagram fits very easily inside Texas, have to twist it a little bit, but not too much--it is only 600 miles to berlin, ... 700 miles from berlin to Rome, and from rome to barcelona, it is 500 miles...and back to london about 700 or so....

And inside that area there are a great number of great race tracks....
OTOH, dallas to el paso is about 650 miles, to waskom from Dallas about 200 or so, from waskom to el paso about 850, from Houston to el paso about 750 miles; from Houston to amarillo about 650 miles..... and one major track (and I do not think it has a road course, just an oval).....

places like this all over the usa, that do not even have one track :(

No one should wonder why there are some great road racers who come from Europe, but one should wonder why, there are as many as we do have, who do show up from the usa..... :(


Texas is roughly the same size as France. Texas is approximately 678054 sq kilometers, France is 674843 sq/km. That said, I believe they likely still cover a hell of a lot more road between races on the IRL schedule than the GP2.

[markabilly]

Texas is roughly the same size as France. Texas is approximately 678054 sq kilometers, France is 674843 sq/km. That said, I believe they likely still cover a hell of a lot more road between races on the IRL schedule than the GP2.
not quite
france has 211,209 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France

and texas has over 25% more with
texas at 268,581 sq miles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas

But my point was more of dimensions and lenght with being able to squeeze the distances between those cities almost completely into Texas and what that area has interms of race tracks........now start talking the USA only, and I guess we are talking some travel distances in excess of 3,000 miles....

o think I could live in germany or even london, and drive aday or so, to see a race in Spa, to monza, to lemans, the Ring, Valencia and even Monaco......

[Easy Drifter]

Back in the mid 70's one year we ran 8 races in Canada and 3 in the US for a total of 11. Travel distance on the rig over 14,000 miles. After that we were afraid to keep track! We were based in Toronto and races included Mosport, the Glen, St. Jovite and Waterford all less than 300 miles away. Mosport only 60. Longest distance to a US race was to Road Atlanta.
That just gives a small idea of the mileage we covered and I am sure the IC teams travel far further.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Back in the mid 70's one year we ran 8 races in Canada and 3 in the US for a total of 11. Travel distance on the rig over 14,000 miles. After that we were afraid to keep track! We were based in Toronto and races included Mosport, the Glen, St. Jovite and Waterford all less than 300 miles away. Mosport only 60. Longest distance to a US race was to Road Atlanta.
That just gives a small idea of the mileage we covered and I am sure the IC teams travel far further.

Road Atlanta aint far Drifter...not quite two days there man....lol

wusses.....

[V12]

I'll spring for it. But in order for me to pay, RHR has to renounce his US citizenship and take on some hard to pronounce and impossible to spell foreign name. Then he'll fit right in with the IRL (where the I apparently stands for International) and he'll do just fine.

Ir Ryan, vencer a grande corrida para o lar terra!

BZ

When it comes to US drivers (or lack of) in IndyCar, while I can sympathise with the patriotic argument, but I never understand the impossible to spell/pronounce argument, since American names come from some foreign ancestor immigrant anyway.

Maybe I'm missing something but I find a name like Justin Wilson or Will Power easier to pronounce than some of the good old-fashioned all-American NASCAR boys like Kahne, Keselowski, Reutimann (thought it was same pronounciation as an Argentine ex-F1 driver with a similar name but apparently not), that Hmiel guy being discussed in the thread up there, and even Earnhardt has that awkward silent 'd'.

On the subject of the spare £3.2 million, can the certain company who have invested in both the driver and the entire series not pony it up, and if not is it a case of they CAN'T, or they WON'T?

[markabilly]

well one could increase the prize money or pay for teams to show up, like f1 used to do in the sixties...or make some split in TV revenue...

and I do not think it is so much patriotic but who. It is much easier to support someone who you easily identify with, such as Spain for Alonso, England for Hamilton, etc and so forth and especially some local hero or someone who brings something different to the table (such as DP)

[Mark in Oshawa]

When it comes to US drivers (or lack of) in IndyCar, while I can sympathise with the patriotic argument, but I never understand the impossible to spell/pronounce argument, since American names come from some foreign ancestor immigrant anyway.

Maybe I'm missing something but I find a name like Justin Wilson or Will Power easier to pronounce than some of the good old-fashioned all-American NASCAR boys like Kahne, Keselowski, Reutimann (thought it was same pronounciation as an Argentine ex-F1 driver with a similar name but apparently not), that Hmiel guy being discussed in the thread up there, and even Earnhardt has that awkward silent 'd'.

On the subject of the spare £3.2 million, can the certain company who have invested in both the driver and the entire series not pony it up, and if not is it a case of they CAN'T, or they WON'T?

Quit being realistic now...you might get in the way of a good Scotty Rant again.....

That last paragraph says volumes. Corporate America WONT pony up often enough to keep more Americans in the series. The same way corporate Canada wouldn't give Paul Tracy 50Cents to put towards a coffee.

[markabilly]

Quit being realistic now...you might get in the way of a good Scotty Rant again.....

That last paragraph says volumes. Corporate America WONT pony up often enough to keep more Americans in the series. The same way corporate Canada wouldn't give Paul Tracy 50Cents to put towards a coffee.
no but if it brings them pr like they like it like that....go daddy....

bottom line, one can spend 3,2 m and get advertizing...where are thye going to get the most bang for the buck in the domestic market?????

Well duh, think cars with fenders

[Jag_Warrior]

I'll go back to something I've been hung up on for years: while I'm sure that Michael Andretti could show receipts, invoices and the like, to demonstrate that it costs $3.2 million to run this car for the balance of the season, could he demonstrate that the sponsorship value of that car equals or exceeds the $3.2 million that he's asking for?

Again, what it costs to produce something or provide a service does not determine its (market) value. For some reason, the owners in AOWR (who I thought were mostly businessmen) have had trouble with that economic FACT for the past 10 years+. You can buy houses all day long in Arizona for $95K... yet it cost well over $200K to build some of them just two or three years ago. I suspect that if any of them are owned by AOWR people, they'd stick to that $200K price tag, and wonder why no one shows up for their open house tours.

[markabilly]

I'll go back to something I've been hung up on for years: while I'm sure that Michael Andretti could show receipts, invoices and the like, to demonstrate that it costs $3.2 million to run this car for the balance of the season, could he demonstrate that the sponsorship value of that car equals or exceeds the $3.2 million that he's asking for?

Again, what it costs to produce something or provide a service does not determine its (market) value. For some reason, the owners in AOWR (who I thought were mostly businessmen) have had trouble with that economic FACT for the past 10 years+. You can buy houses all day long in Arizona for $95K... yet it cost well over $200K to build some of them just two or three years ago. I suspect that if any of them are owned by AOWR people, they'd stick to that $200K price tag, and wonder why no one shows up for their open house tours.
yes much better than my rambling statement i was trying to make--

[Mark in Oshawa]

It all comes down to the fact that the people running Indycar cannot prove ratings high enough to give the TV exposure the ad agencies and companies need to get their ROI. IF you get someone's company on the car, chances are they are race fans and are willing to pay to get the exposure at the track and be in the world of racing, or you are getting people who can write it off at a loss just to have their name at Indy once a year.

I have no idea where all of this will change, but it will not change if the series runs all ovals, it will not change if the drivers were all American and it will not change if the series was running at road/street venues with 100000 people in the stands every week. It will change when the people become attracted to the racing. Improve the product, and people tuning in will stay interested, and in time, draw in more race fans. Once upon a time people watched Indycar, and the split drove them off....or at least, that is the only deduction we can make since the drop in popularity happened from 96 on....

Both camps tried their formulae and both failed. Yet, there was a viable product in 1994. Somehow, someone has to do the marketing and research to find out where those fans went and why.

A good on track product has to be there though, no matter what comes back, because in the end, you cant sell the sizzle without the steak.

[markabilly]

It all comes down to the fact that the people running Indycar cannot prove ratings high enough to give the TV exposure the ad agencies and companies need to get their ROI. IF you get someone's company on the car, chances are they are race fans and are willing to pay to get the exposure at the track and be in the world of racing, or you are getting people who can write it off at a loss just to have their name at Indy once a year.

I have no idea where all of this will change, but it will not change if the series runs all ovals, it will not change if the drivers were all American and it will not change if the series was running at road/street venues with 100000 people in the stands every week. It will change when the people become attracted to the racing. Improve the product, and people tuning in will stay interested, and in time, draw in more race fans. Once upon a time people watched Indycar, and the split drove them off....or at least, that is the only deduction we can make since the drop in popularity happened from 96 on....

Both camps tried their formulae and both failed. Yet, there was a viable product in 1994. Somehow, someone has to do the marketing and research to find out where those fans went and why.

A good on track product has to be there though, no matter what comes back, because in the end, you cant sell the sizzle without the steak.
I also think the perceived quality in both series started dropping even more dramactically when all the tobacco money went away...

Perception is reality and reality is not always perceived, hence the DP deal and the potential for a real crash for OW racing in the usa, such that all we are left is formula atlantic except that series As of March 3, 2010, is on "hiatus"

[markabilly]

so bye bye miss american pie......went down to the levy....

Indeeed, if the cigarette money were still around, the two series would probably still be fighting...and we might still have people with big names wanting to be in both and staying in the series, not jumping to fenders....IF

[Mark in Oshawa]

I also think the perceived quality in both series started dropping even more dramactically when all the tobacco money went away...

Perception is reality and reality is not always perceived, hence the DP deal and the potential for a real crash for OW racing in the usa, such that all we are left is formula atlantic except that series As of March 3, 2010, is on "hiatus"

Oh there was a drop in quality. You cant take the top 28 teams in OW racing, split 8 to 10 away, and add 15 new ones out of the ether or lower formulae and form the IRL, and have the remaining upper 20 stay with CART with some new ones, and have a better show in either series. After 5 years of split loyalties, a dysfunctional marketplace split on who was "right", and then teams migrating back to keep sponsors (based purely on the 500. without it, the IRL was still born), you still never had two healthy series. People saw this lack of depth and quality and looked around, and saw NASCAR, where people were not playing poltics, and they left.

I cant count the number of people who think OW racing has lost quality in the last 15 years. Yet, the thing is, in the last 2, I think the actual depth of potential winners has grown, and if the formula was opened up to new ideas, chassis and engines, this series would be considered top rate. The designated chassis idea, as was passed by the IRL is actually the one thing holding them back. Now that no one has any money, it is still seen as the one cost cutting move they can hang on to keep teams on the track, but it is a millstone around the neck of the series when it comes to perception.

The fact is, the American drivers not being up front and a large part of a series that mainly takes place in the USA is a big deal, but the fact is no one looks at the series as a technologically on the edge series no more. In the 70's and 80's, it was seen as that.....The drivers didn't have to be from New Mexico, Indiana or PA, but the series DID have to be seen as technologically advanced, and competitive. Most of that image in the public's mind is lost...

[Jag_Warrior]

so bye bye miss american pie......went down to the levy....

Indeeed, if the cigarette money were still around, the two series would probably still be fighting...and we might still have people with big names wanting to be in both and staying in the series, not jumping to fenders....IF

Maybe. Or maybe the cigarette money would have followed the beer money and migrated to other series too. It's hard to say. But I agree, losing the cancer stick money did hurt.

Oh, and please don't sing or hum The Day the Music Died or Speedway At Nazareth on AOWR forums. You'll cause some of us who followed open wheel prior to 1995 to start sobbing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Cig money was leaving...but somehow NASCAR found a way to replace it...and no one in the OW world really did...

[Scotty G.]

Yet, there was a viable product in 1994.


It ain't 1994 anymore. Them days are long gone.

There were marketable and sellable names in the sport in 1994. But there were red flags already being waved. The big names (most of whom were Americans) from the 70's, 80's and early 90's, were all leaving. It was those name drivers, that helped raise the sport and keep in mainstream. TV is also completely different now, then it was 16 years ago. There wasn't much competition back then, compared to now.

It wasn't the racing. The racing generally sucked back then (1 or 2 cars on the lead lap at most ovals and 15 MPH spreads at Indy) compared to even what we have now.

Many teams were either bankrolled by the cancer-stick companies or by engine manufactueres. Both of those were going to eventually leave, whether there was any "split" or not. Many long-time sponsors like Valvoline, Pennzoil, K-Mart and STP all left....for NASCAR. Why? Better ROI. Still that way (in a even bigger way) today.

NASCAR took off in the early 90's and when they took off, Indy Car didn't know how to fight them. They could have battled them with new American and Canadian stars. Instead, they chose a different path. They chose wrong and the American consumer left them.

The "split" happens, and even more Americans leave them. They sample NASCAR, and see many drivers who in prior years would have been Indy Car drivers. They see a much more interesting form of racing, with sponsors they have heard of and a TV product that resonates. They see personalities that interest them. Drivers that 20 years ago, would have been racing at Indy in May instead of August.

The economy then goes in the toilet and TV numbers continue to tank. Indy Car is stuck with an awful TV contract and very few sponsors, willing to pony up 6 million dollars a year for a sport that only resonates for one day a year.

The negativity from all sides helps bring down AOW and its all over. They have been in this condition (just a few diehards and anti-NASCAR folks left) for years and show very little sign of ever getting out of it.

[Easy Drifter]

3 lemons, 4 sour cherries and a bunch of sour grapes.

[Jag_Warrior]

Many teams were either bankrolled by the cancer-stick companies or by engine manufactueres. Both of those were going to eventually leave, whether there was any "split" or not.

NASCAR took off in the early 90's and when they took off, Indy Car didn't know how to fight them. They could have battled them with new American and Canadian stars. Instead, they chose a different path. They chose wrong and the American consumer left them.

NASCAR did grow in the 90's... especially after the BY 400 in 1994. ;) But NASCAR's Daytona ratings were higher in the mid to late 70's than they were in the early to mid 90's. Once NASCAR got a solid ESPN deal, it grew & grew as a sport and a business. NASCAR has continued to build its momentum from that point right up to today. Then came the mega network deals. In the mid 80's and early 90's, CART was not beating NASCAR in the ratings (on over air network). The ratings were (of course) closer, but CART was not beating NASCAR. That is a popular internet urban legend, spread by people who want to create the illusion that what happened in AOWR was somehow inevitable, almost fateful. Nothing is inevitable, except death to mortal beings. The Indy 500's ratings had been in decline since the late 70's early 80's (just like Daytona's). But they literally fell off a cliff in 1996. It was only after the split that the Daytona 500 began (soundly) beating the Indy 500 in the ratings. In 1995, the Indy 500 beat the Daytona 500 in the ratings (as it always had, as best I can recall). But in 1996, for the first time ever(?), the Daytona 500 beat the Indy 500 in the ratings - and they've never looked back. Even a struggling first year stats student could draw a correlation and then prove causation on what happened there.

It is also not true that the engine manufacturers were eventually going to leave. My former company was tied to a CART team (Indy and the series itself) by a Chairman and CEO who had a real passion for AOWR. We also had close B2B ties to one of the manufacturers. Several of the other major associates on that team and in CART were also tied to this company (and others) for the same reason. Ford was not completely happy with the ratings decline, but that didn't come until after the split. It was after the split that we ponied up additional cash to act as primary sponsor for an up & coming American (:eek :) CART Indy Lights driver (who didn't really pan out). And even after the split, Mercedes tried to convince CART to work on a new engine formula. It was CART sitting on its hands, combined with reduced ROI (largely because of the split), that drove them away. Honda showed no signs of leaving, except for the split. Toyota? Who knows what they would have done. Yes, I suspect they would have eventually left, just because that's what Toyota does. They either win and leave... or they get beaten silly (F1) and leave. But the others? No. Short of someone providing actual, factual quotes, from someone in the know, I'm aware of no such eventuality.

It actually frustrates me that I do find myself agreeing with some of your posts sometimes. To be fair, there are times when you get it right. But in your zeal to hammer on everything that is, and was AOWR, I find that you often fill in the blanks with anecdotals (passing as facts), or you just straight make things up. I don't know all of what went on. But I do know some of it. And I know that you sometimes don't tell the truth. Doing that is what causes me to be frustrated when I do agree with you. Knowing that you have an (obvious) agenda here, well, it gives me a somewhat creepy feeling when I agree with you. Just shoot straight(er) and don't try to beat a dead horse with every post, eh?

Were there concerns in AOWR (CART and Indy) prior to 1995 or so? Sure! Was there some set of circumstances that made the failure of all of AOWR (including Indy) inevitable? No. Not that I can see. Every business has its ups & downs. But a down only represents the end if the business doesn't react properly. Unless you're borrowing money at high rates to make buggy whips, you're not (necessarily) destined to fail.

[Lousada]

NASCAR did grow in the 90's... especially after the BY 400 in 1994. ;) But NASCAR's Daytona ratings were higher in the mid to late 70's than they were in the early to mid 90's. Once NASCAR got a solid ESPN deal, it grew & grew as a sport and a business. NASCAR has continued to build its momentum from that point right up to today. Then came the mega network deals. In the mid 80's and early 90's, CART was not beating NASCAR in the ratings (on over air network). The ratings were (of course) closer, but CART was not beating NASCAR. That is a popular internet urban legend, spread by people who want to create the illusion that what happened in AOWR was somehow inevitable, almost fateful. Nothing is inevitable, except death to mortal beings. The Indy 500's ratings had been in decline since the late 70's early 80's (just like Daytona's). But they literally fell off a cliff in 1996. It was only after the split that the Daytona 500 began (soundly) beating the Indy 500 in the ratings. In 1995, the Indy 500 beat the Daytona 500 in the ratings (as it always had, as best I can recall). But in 1996, for the first time ever(?), the Daytona 500 beat the Indy 500 in the ratings - and they've never looked back. Even a struggling first year stats student could draw a correlation and then prove causation on what happened there.

Great post. According to these numbers Daytona first beat Indy in '94. The core of what you are saying is correct though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Daytona_500_broadcasters
http://sportsmediawatch.blogspot.com/2009/05/indianapolis-500-numbers-game.html

[Marbles]

It wasn't the racing. The racing generally sucked back then (1 or 2 cars on the lead lap at most ovals and 15 MPH spreads at Indy) compared to even what we have now.


Scotty G., in all seriousness -- think of yourself as a nation and your word as your currency. As your currency devalues, printing more currency simply decreases it's value even more -- to the point of worthlessness.

You continually assert that mid-nineties CART was a boring affair. I don't think you could find even the most die-hard IRL fan to back you up on this. One, that is, who's actually old enough to have witnessed the racing back then.

[Jag_Warrior]

Great post. According to these numbers Daytona first beat Indy in '94. The core of what you are saying is correct though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Daytona_500_broadcasters
http://sportsmediawatch.blogspot.com/2009/05/indianapolis-500-numbers-game.html

Whoops! :D But Indy did come back (for the last time) in 1995 for the ratings win. Now Indy struggles against the Coca Cola 600. Daytona roughly doubles up on Indy's ratings now. :(

Thanks, that's a handy page. So now I can go there instead of opening three spreadsheets or trying to depend on my fading memory. My issue with making that post was I couldn't remember where I saved the spreadsheets!

[Jag_Warrior]

Scotty G., in all seriousness -- think of yourself as a nation and your word as your currency. As your currency devalues, printing more currency simply decreases it's value even more -- to the point of worthlessness.

He's getting to the place where the German mark was in the 20's. I'm just sayin'. :dozey:



You continually assert that mid-nineties CART was a boring affair. I don't think you could find even the most die-hard IRL fan to back you up on this. One, that is, who's actually old enough to have witnessed the racing back then.

It was pretty damn exciting on my TV most of the time. Emmo Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Mario and Michael Andretti, Paul Tracy, Robby Gordon... yeah, these guys put on some really boring shows.

Scotty might want to put forth a less disingenuous effort before he looks like this at the grocery store.
http://preparingyourfamily.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/weimar_currency_wheelbarrow-320x252.jpg

[Marbles]

Scotty might want to put forth a less disingenuous effort before he looks like this at the grocery store.
http://preparingyourfamily.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/weimar_currency_wheelbarrow-320x252.jpg

LOL! Where do you get this stuff?

I know, the internet, but.. where do you get this stuff? :)

[Jag_Warrior]

LOL! Where do you get this stuff?

I know, the internet, but.. where do you get this stuff? :)

According to my friend's teenage son, I'm "mental". Is that a good thing? :confused:

[garyshell]

The negativity from all sides helps bring down AOW and its all over.

And continues right here, just look in the mirror.

Gary

[markabilly]

And continues right here, just look in the mirror.

Gary
Yeah it is much better to be happy like the band on the titanic and continue playing then spend time worrying over the source of the leak, trying to figure out how to fix it and worrying about what will happen if it does not get fixed.

seems some gave up and took the lifeboats to nascar....


they caught the last train for the coast....
the day the music .....

[garyshell]

The negativity from all sides helps bring down AOW and its all over.


Yeah it is much better to be happy like the band on the titanic and continue playing then spend time worrying over the source of the leak, trying to figure out how to fix it and worrying about what will happen if it does not get fixed.

seems some gave up and took the lifeboats to nascar....

Show me ONE post where Scotty has done anything except spread the same sort of negativity he bemoans in the post above. And speaking of which, where's your's??? You keep running around declaring that the Titanic is going down and worrying about the consequences. I see very little about a fix, just a lot of hand wringing or shooting down attempts to fix the issue.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

What is surprising is that people think that $3.2 Million is a lot for a top tier racing series.

$3.2 Million would get you on the back of the grid with a ALMS LMP2 or a Daytona Prototype.