Toronto Honda Indy

[Easy Drifter]

Last year the organizers managed to alienate many of the local sports car clubs and volunteers. I heard more than a few people complaining at later races at Mosport, especially at the ALMS race.
Already on the CASC site there are complaints about spectator rules. I do not know how they compare to other IC races. They are certainly stricter than Mosport but the venues are totally different.

All bags including purses will be searched.
Any attempt to bring liquor in will mean no admission or refund and charges may be laid by the police.
No food or drink including water.
No smoking in any building, bridge, tunnel or grandstand. (The bldg. is Ont. law)
No video or audio recording device. (Not sure how they will deal with cellular phones with video capabilities)
No professional type cameras.
No coolers.
No Chairs.
No Computers.
Some of it will be to reduce the clean up costs.
Some of you regulars can let us know how this compares to other races.

[harvick#1]

wow, harsh, I'd boycott the race if I was gonna go, this is just insane. they are basically telling you to sit in the seat for the race and not do anything

[beachgirl]

Last year the organizers managed to alienate many of the local sports car clubs and volunteers. I heard more than a few people complaining at later races at Mosport, especially at the ALMS race.
Already on the CASC site there are complaints about spectator rules. I do not know how they compare to other IC races. They are certainly stricter than Mosport but the venues are totally different.

All bags including purses will be searched.
Any attempt to bring liquor in will mean no admission or refund and charges may be laid by the police.
No food or drink including water.
No smoking in any building, bridge, tunnel or grandstand. (The bldg. is Ont. law)
No video or audio recording device. (Not sure how they will deal with cellular phones with video capabilities)
No professional type cameras.
No coolers.
No Chairs.
No Computers.
Some of it will be to reduce the clean up costs.
Some of you regulars can let us know how this compares to other races.

Is this for a race, or the new airline rules? :(

[SarahFan]

I carried 5 litre bottles into Long beach this weekend...so the no water rule is completly bull**** IMO.....come on, its friggin water

and what if i want to bring my own PB&J?.....

whats a 'professional type' camera?

and like you pointed out....most phones currently have video and audio capabilities

[Mark in Oshawa]

This is pretty much what I heard last year. They used to not be too fussy on some of this stuff. You could never bring in booze, the archaic liquor laws we have in Ontario dictate THAT, but if I cant bring my own lunch and water, they can forget me showing up. I don't mind paying for lunch if it isn't overpriced crap, but I know it will be.

They will kill this race as dead as a doornail if they don't let up and make this a more inclusive deal...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Just about everything (but not all) are things that individual race organizers could do, however I highly doubt the IRL would have such policies. By the way, how do they plan to get all the volunteers, whom you can't do a street race without, if the no food, drink, coolers and chairs apply? 12 hour days for those folks, with no pay, means they bring most of their own gear.

Starter, the way they treated the great volunteer base that Molson's had started back in 86 is shameful. The marshals, course control, pit marshals, timing and scoring and support personnel all came from the local CASC affiliates. Andretti's organization came up here and alienated most of them right off the hop...

If this race is going to grow back into what it was, the last thing they should do is be kicking the more hard core racing fans and supporters in the teeth. The fact their sole marketing effort was newspaper ads featuring Marco and Danica didn't seem to work either.

All in all, this event was a no brainer from the very first year the race was held, and somehow the IRL sanction and the new promoters have not found that formula. Banning everything under the Sun wont help it.

[Easy Drifter]

Just read a post on the CASC forum that on race day they opened up the Gold Grandstands to everyone for free. I do not know if that is true but that is what is posted. If I had paid big bucks for a Gold stand seat ticket I would have been livid and would never return.
They wanted the stands full for TV.
So far there has been very little promo.

I know Mosport is totally different but what a different attitude to the spectators. Of course with camping it is different but there is no hassle on booze or food for those just coming in on race day. Technically unless you were camping that is illegal and even camping only at your actual campsite.
The only cops I saw were 2 Female Mounties and they couldn't have cared less. It is the Durham Regional Police area but the RCMP have authority anywhere in Canada although they usually don't step on local forces territory.
They were there as part of the opening along with a pipe band.

[Chamoo]

As much as I hate to say this, but maybe this event would be better off being transferred to Mosport? Of course, we would lose the history of the Toronto Indy, but, with the current promoters of the event, is it really that much different?

I think the proper event to compare Toronto to is St. Pete as they are both promoted by the same company, the men that left AGR last season. I've never attended either (St. Pete ever, and Toronto in years) for a long time, but maybe someone on here can compare the various restrictions between St. Pete and Toronto?

[SoCalPVguy]

Last year the organizers managed to alienate many of the local sports car clubs and volunteers. I heard more than a few people complaining at later races at Mosport, especially at the ALMS race.
Already on the CASC site there are complaints about spectator rules. I do not know how they compare to other IC races. They are certainly stricter than Mosport but the venues are totally different.

All bags including purses will be searched.
Any attempt to bring liquor in will mean no admission or refund and charges may be laid by the police.
No food or drink including water.
No smoking in any building, bridge, tunnel or grandstand. (The bldg. is Ont. law)
No video or audio recording device. (Not sure how they will deal with cellular phones with video capabilities)
No professional type cameras.
No coolers.
No Chairs.
No Computers.
Some of it will be to reduce the clean up costs.
Some of you regulars can let us know how this compares to other races.

Typical Canadian leftist nanny-state fascism inflicted upon racegoers in the name of 'safety'. That is of course the second most abused phrase for tyranny right after " for the children". I refer you to a great Canadian May Steyn ... Mark Steyn is an international bestselling author, a Top 41 recording artist, and a leading Canadian human rights activist. That's to say, his book America Alone: The End Of The World As We Know It was a New York Times bestseller in the United States and a Number One bestseller in Canada; his Christmas single with Jessica Martin reached Number Seven on Amazon's easy listening bestsellers, and Number 41 on their main pop chart; and, as for being a leading Canadian human rights activist, he is actively trying to destroy the Canadian "Human Rights" Commission, for reasons he explains in his book Lights Out: Islam, Free Speech And The Twilight Of The West. Mark is also a visiting fellow of Hillsdale College; and a popular guest host of America's Number One radio show The Rush Limbaugh Program, and America's Number Two cable show Hannity. In addition, his writing on politics, arts and culture can be read each week throughout much of the English-speaking world.

But back to the topic at hand... Several USA sporting events and concerts like Coachella have tried the water ban but courts have found that promoters cannot deny basic human-needs like water. Beer unfortunately isn't considered a basic human-need although I would disagree.

As for what's a professional camera and what's an amateur camera I wouldn't say but it sets up an unnecessary conflict between promoter and paying fan.

All these bozos need is some handicapped patron to be denied a chair (a 'wheel' chair ?) to test that part of the rules.

As for 'computer' ban... ludicrous, does that include small iPADS like the ... iPhone ? Totally unenforceable and potential to set up bad publicity and bad feelings.

All in all its typical modern Canadian leftist control that just plain ol' sucks the fun out of everything.

[MDS]

About the only thing on here I agree with is the no outside alcohol rule. I think a venue should be able to decide whether or not people can bring alcohol to their event. It worked at Barber because there was a lot of camping and people were encouraged to bring their own chairs and drinks, Toronto is in the middle of a city, so I get that things are different.

I wonder how much of this is legal boiler plate that they have to have to meet legal requirements, or if it is going to be rigorously enforced. Like some news agency might have paid for exclusive photography from the event, and they have to write this but don't plan on turning anyway anyone with a D60 at the gate.

[Easy Drifter]

I also agree on the beer. It is in the middle of the city and it is also Ont. law. Beer will be sold at the track so they do not want to upset the vendors. But the beer sold will have to be consumed in the 'beer venues'. Again Ont. law not the organizers.
The water is something else as many people will not drink munincipal water. There is nothing dangerous about Toronto water but it sure is not a great tasting water and tends to be warmish. I lived in TO for many years.
Heck our Georgian Bay water gets too warm in the summer.
By the way the organizers are from the US not Canada and are the split off from Andretti Green Racing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Typical Canadian leftist nanny-state fascism inflicted upon racegoers in the name of 'safety'. That is of course the second most abused phrase for tyranny right after " for the children". I refer you to a great Canadian May Steyn ... Mark Steyn is an international bestselling author, a Top 41 recording artist, and a leading Canadian human rights activist. That's to say, his book America Alone: The End Of The World As We Know It was a New York Times bestseller in the United States and a Number One bestseller in Canada; his Christmas single with Jessica Martin reached Number Seven on Amazon's easy listening bestsellers, and Number 41 on their main pop chart; and, as for being a leading Canadian human rights activist, he is actively trying to destroy the Canadian "Human Rights" Commission, for reasons he explains in his book Lights Out: Islam, Free Speech And The Twilight Of The West. Mark is also a visiting fellow of Hillsdale College; and a popular guest host of America's Number One radio show The Rush Limbaugh Program, and America's Number Two cable show Hannity. In addition, his writing on politics, arts and culture can be read each week throughout much of the English-speaking world.

But back to the topic at hand... Several USA sporting events and concerts like Coachella have tried the water ban but courts have found that promoters cannot deny basic human-needs like water. Beer unfortunately isn't considered a basic human-need although I would disagree.

As for what's a professional camera and what's an amateur camera I wouldn't say but it sets up an unnecessary conflict between promoter and paying fan.

All these bozos need is some handicapped patron to be denied a chair (a 'wheel' chair ?) to test that part of the rules.

As for 'computer' ban... ludicrous, does that include small iPADS like the ... iPhone ? Totally unenforceable and potential to set up bad publicity and bad feelings.

All in all its typical modern Canadian leftist control that just plain ol' sucks the fun out of everything.
Nope...it isn't the nanny state doing all this pal. It is the organizers. Outside of the booze rules, all of this is organizers doing.

I am a big Mark Steyn fan by the way, so I know the nanny state when I see it, but this isn't to do with that.

[Mark in Oshawa]

As much as I hate to say this, but maybe this event would be better off being transferred to Mosport? Of course, we would lose the history of the Toronto Indy, but, with the current promoters of the event, is it really that much different?

I think the proper event to compare Toronto to is St. Pete as they are both promoted by the same company, the men that left AGR last season. I've never attended either (St. Pete ever, and Toronto in years) for a long time, but maybe someone on here can compare the various restrictions between St. Pete and Toronto?

I would love to see them at Mosport, but the event is a Toronto event. It has in theory a lot better audience there. The casual race fan wont trek out to Mosport. They WILL if sold properly show up at the Ex to watch Indycar. Chamoo, you are from this area and have seen Mosport. Do you really think the pretty and trendy crowd love Mosport? Some make it up there for ALMS, but it isn't the same and you know it.

This race will succeed or fail on how the promoters correct their heavy handed and short sighted methods from last year. Based on what I have seen so far, I am not optimistic.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

A little bit off topic, but are there any news about the Canadian Motor Speedway? I vaguely recall a proposed short oval somewhere in Southern Ontario...

[Mark in Oshawa]

A little bit off topic, but are there any news about the Canadian Motor Speedway? I vaguely recall a proposed short oval somewhere in Southern Ontario...

Not off topic, since it would be a great place to hold this race in time. It is to be built just minutes from the US Border Crossing (the Peace Bridge) across the Niagara at Buffalo. 2 hours down the Queen Elizabeth Way from Toronto. The problem I think is funding. They have the green light from the planning committee's and the local councils, but to this date, I couldn't tell you if they have turned a shovel full of dirt.

Here is the link: http://www.cdnmotorspeedway.com/

The webpage claims they are racing in 2011. I will believe it when I see it...we have heard a lot about race tracks of this nature before, many in this exact area; and this is the closest it has come to fruition BUT I didn't read anything in the new about the earth being turned....

[Easy Drifter]

For all you youngsters out there (I remember Ben Hur in his chariot) the Indy cars have run at Mosport.
Both in the 60's and late 70's still under USAC sanction.

[Chamoo]

I would love to see them at Mosport, but the event is a Toronto event. It has in theory a lot better audience there. The casual race fan wont trek out to Mosport. They WILL if sold properly show up at the Ex to watch Indycar. Chamoo, you are from this area and have seen Mosport. Do you really think the pretty and trendy crowd love Mosport? Some make it up there for ALMS, but it isn't the same and you know it.

This race will succeed or fail on how the promoters correct their heavy handed and short sighted methods from last year. Based on what I have seen so far, I am not optimistic.

I think it is definitely more beneficial for the historic Toronto Indy to remain in Toronto, however, in its current state, running the Indycars at Mosport might be a step up if the product in Toronto doesn't improve in a couple of years.

I hate seeing the Toronto Indy in such a state, it is a travesty really.

[SoCalPVguy]

I am a big Mark Steyn fan by the way,

Any fan of Mark Steyn is a friend of mine.

[Mark in Oshawa]

For all you youngsters out there (I remember Ben Hur in his chariot) the Indy cars have run at Mosport.
Both in the 60's and late 70's still under USAC sanction.

I remember alright Drifter, I was 13 the last time they ran at Mosport.

Doesn't mean they would be better off up there. Mosport is still rather rustic facility wise....and if you really want to impress sponsors, roll out the red carpet and show off the series in its best light, then Mosport needs a little more than just a little makeup. It needs plastic surgery facility wise. Track wise? OH superb.....still one of the scariest and fastest road courses going, and it would put on a show. The problem is, racing isn't just about the on track experience at this level. The infrastructure HAS to be there.....and it is that and the perception level of the casual race fans that means the Indy has to work at the EX...or just give it up.

Torontonians are fickle and shallow towards any sport not the Maple Leafs.....

Putting the cars at Mosport wont work. If it was a good option, then the Ex would have NEVER happened.

[markabilly]

Ty

As for what's a professional camera and what's an amateur camera I wouldn't say but it sets up an unnecessary conflict between promoter and paying fan.

.
I used to take large camears and lens to all sorts of sport events, but no more.

Last year, I took a Canon S2 IS (a great little camera with its optical lens and stabilizer) to the Stars on Ice show that my two daughters wanted to see.....turned away at gate and had to take it back to the car. It is out of production and only a little larger than the pocket point and shoot (primarily due to the grip and lens) but i highly recommend it over later models. easy to hold in one hand and snap away.

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Powershot-S2-Digital-Stabilized/dp/B0009GZSSO/ref=dp_cp_ob_p_title_2

Why?

"Too professional---need a special licensce and pass"

well, they did not strip search us at the gate..

[SarahFan]

have you always been markabilly or did you used to post under another name

[markabilly]

have you always been markabilly or did you used to post under another name
yes

[Mark in Oshawa]

yes

good answer...lol

[elis]

I travelled across the Atlantic around 30 times in 10 years to watch champ car, plus around Europe for F1 etc, & never had any issue with using my camera.. a Canon Eos, with an extendable 300mm lens. I would say back then it perhaps might've been deemed more 'pro', yet never ever had any probs, including at Toronto! Heck Fontana & Montreal even accepted a 500mm without raising an eyebrow.

I would be ready for a stand up face off with any jobsworth who tried to tell me I couldn't take it in to a race, especially having travelled so far, but moreso as it'd now be deemed antiquated & totally unprofessional, given it uses ye olden styley film not digi!

As for the recording devices.. they'd be hard pressed to confiscate everyones cell phones, there'd be a revolution at the gates! :D

[Mark in Oshawa]

I travelled across the Atlantic around 30 times in 10 years to watch champ car, plus around Europe for F1 etc, & never had any issue with using my camera.. a Canon Eos, with an extendable 300mm lens. I would say back then it perhaps might've been deemed more 'pro', yet never ever had any probs, including at Toronto! Heck Fontana & Montreal even accepted a 500mm without raising an eyebrow.

I would be ready for a stand up face off with any jobsworth who tried to tell me I couldn't take it in to a race, especially having travelled so far, but moreso as it'd now be deemed antiquated & totally unprofessional, given it uses ye olden styley film not digi!

As for the recording devices.. they'd be hard pressed to confiscate everyones cell phones, there'd be a revolution at the gates! :D

Up until this recent change in promoters, That is the reality in Toronto. You could bring in a big ole camera and no one would get bent out of shape. NOW this new promoter is going to crack the whip. It is why the Toronto race is in jeopardy in my mind. The IRL didn't find a way to run it when the merger went through in late winter of 08, and that lost year kicked it in the teeth. The new guys running the race I think dropped the ball on it, and it is almost May, and I have yet to see an ad in the paper for tickets or even internet ads for the race on racing webpages.

Add in restrictive rules...and this sounds like a disaster in the making....

[Easy Drifter]

I have seen no promotion although I believe they were at a couple of the performance car shows. I do not know if they were at the huge Toronto Auto Show. I could find out from my editor.
I will complain on here where we are all real fans but much as I feel like it I will not post on the Blog I write for. I do not want the race to fail and we have over 20,000 readers most of whom are not gearheads like us.
Mind you the way they are going they are going to fail. The people I heard complaining at the ALMS race, and Regional races indicated they would not be attending the Indy this year.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I have seen no promotion although I believe they were at a couple of the performance car shows. I do not know if they were at the huge Toronto Auto Show. I could find out from my editor.
I will complain on here where we are all real fans but much as I feel like it I will not post on the Blog I write for. I do not want the race to fail and we have over 20,000 readers most of whom are not gearheads like us.
Mind you the way they are going they are going to fail. The people I heard complaining at the ALMS race, and Regional races indicated they would not be attending the Indy this year.

The sad reality is...we want to go, but we don't want our intelligence insulted...like it was last year.

[the bro]

There was an interesting article in The Star in March.

People complained and Honda Indy Toronto listened

http://www.wheels.ca/article/785079


They say the promotion for the event will start around the time of the 500.

“This year, we plan to use the Indianapolis 500 at the end of May as the jumping-off point for what we expect will be seven solid weeks of promotion,” Johnstone said."

May not be a bad plan? Have to wait and see.


As for all the restrictions, it is a little heavy handed. Last year they claimed that the food restrictions were per IRL rules. Last year I took them at their word, but after looking at the rules for the Long Beach Grand Prix, I am not so sure. If it is against IRL rules the Long Beach Grand Prix is completely ignoring them. In fact Long Beach allows coolers as long as there are of a certain size. I would have to wonder if hassling your customers for a bottle of water, or a pack of chips is really worth it. Making your customers feel like a criminal at the gate, for smuggling in a bottle of water on 90 degree day, doesn't build much fan loyalty.

http://www.gplb.com/policies.html


I can personally attest from last year that they let anyone in the Gold Grandstands. I was there all 3 days and I never showed my ticket once.

On the upside major improvement in support races this year.

[Mark in Oshawa]

They say the promotion for the event will start around the time of the 500.

“This year, we plan to use the Indianapolis 500 at the end of May as the jumping-off point for what we expect will be seven solid weeks of promotion,” Johnstone said."

May not be a bad plan? Have to wait and see.

Molson's used to start as far back as March. I guess they think they know what they are doing...but wait and see works if they didn't do what they did last year. They cannot afford to have a poorly attended event. I would be pulling out all the stops.



As for all the restrictions, it is a little heavy handed. Last year they claimed that the food restrictions were per IRL rules. Last year I took them at their word, but after looking at the rules for the Long Beach Grand Prix, I am not so sure. If it is against IRL rules the Long Beach Grand Prix is completely ignoring them. In fact Long Beach allows coolers as long as there are of a certain size. I would have to wonder if hassling your customers for a bottle of water, or a pack of chips is really worth it. Making your customers feel like a criminal at the gate, for smuggling in a bottle of water on 90 degree day, doesn't build much fan loyalty........

On the upside major improvement in support races this year.

A little? A lot..and that wasn't IRL rules.. That was a BS excuse.

If they were confiscating water of people walking in the gate last year, they were just kicking in the nads the people they need every year. With brain dead morons like this, this race is doomed unless they really sell the product properly.

I have little faith in this mess. Drifter had it best last year. The way they treated the volunteers, some who never missed going back to 1986's first event is a sign that the people running the race now are just clueless to marketing and people skills. This event was a turnkey event...and they tried to reinvent the wheel. Not a wise move...

[the bro]

Last year there was a lot of anger about the food policy. The strategy this year seems to be to make the rules clearer. Doesn't solve the problem. I don't see what the big deal is to allow people to bring food or drink inside the venue, within reason.

The rationale given in the article is

"However, as is consistent with every other street course racetrack in North America, and most arenas, ball parks and amusement parks like Canada’s Wonderland, we will still not allow outside food or drink to be taken into the CNE grounds."


I am not sure how many tracks allow food and drink, but given that Long Beach allows it, the policy is not consistent with "every other street course racetrack" as stated in the article.


You have to wonder based on the complaints last year why they still persist with this policy. How much money are they really going to lose by allowing this? At the cost of alienating your fan base. Somehow it is probably not worth it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Last year there was a lot of anger about the food policy. The strategy this year seems to be to make the rules clearer. Doesn't solve the problem. I don't see what the big deal is to allow people to bring food or drink inside the venue, within reason.

The rationale given in the article is

"However, as is consistent with every other street course racetrack in North America, and most arenas, ball parks and amusement parks like Canada’s Wonderland, we will still not allow outside food or drink to be taken into the CNE grounds."


I am not sure how many tracks allow food and drink, but given that Long Beach allows it, the policy is not consistent with "every other street course racetrack" as stated in the article.


You have to wonder based on the complaints last year why they still persist with this policy. How much money are they really going to lose by allowing this? At the cost of alienating your fan base. Somehow it is probably not worth it.

We have beaten to death. You know it..I know it...they are idiots....and they are going to screw this up. Racing fans wont be made to pay through the nose for concessions like fans at a Leaf's game or going to Canada's Wonderland amusement park. Racing fans are smarter than that. Anyone who has gone to a NASCAR race knows there is a more fan friendly enviroment, and this is the boat these guys are missing. They are being greedy. This is no different than the government raising taxes beyond the pale and then wondering why there is an underground economy. In this case, people know they can have their summer excursion to a big time racing event and NOT be forced at "gunpoint" to buy the overpriced crap. They can go to NASCAR CTS series, they can go to the ALMS at Mosport, or they can suck up the bucks a bit more, and hike to the NASCAR races at the Glen or Michigan. Pocono isn't that far either. IF they are so hung up on the IRL, I can lay you even money the Glen doesn't care about the coolers.

Stupid is as stupid does....

[the bro]

and keeps doing apparently.

[Easy Drifter]

Did they ever even think of Diabetics who need to eat regularly and not overpriced fast food and other people with medical conditions. Two listed fountains!!! I expect the concessions will have water at grossly inflated prices. Many people do not or cannot drink pop (Sodas).

[Chamoo]

Did they ever even think of Diabetics who need to eat regularly and not overpriced fast food and other people with medical conditions. Two listed fountains!!! I expect the concessions will have water at grossly inflated prices. Many people do not or cannot drink pop (Sodas).

You would think they would know since one of the competitors in the FIL race is diabetic and is a spokesperson for Diabetes.