Gay couples v B&B

[Hazell B]

Last week or so in the news there was a story about a male gay couple who were refused a stay at a Bed and Breakfast because the owners didn't want gay men sharing a bed in their house.

Now, while I'm all in favour of consenting adults having a happy relationship with any adult they like, I'm also all for being able to choose who stays in your own home. This story has left me torn.

A B&B here in the UK isn't like a hotel. It's a private house that allows people to stay for cash. A private home. I think that means the owner gets to choose who stays and who doesn't, although in this case I do not agree with that choice at all.
Thing is, if I say it's fine to stops a gay couple staying, am I also saying it's fine to stop a black couple staying? As I said, I'm torn about it all.

Your views?

[billiaml]

I'm with you, Hazel. I agree that the owners of the B&B have the right to turn away potential customers they aren't comfortable with.

While I disagree with their choice in this particular instance, I'm against forcing anyone to do business with anyone else. I'm assuming that there are other B&B's in the area where they can stay?

That said, I hope that the owners of the B&B eventually realize that 1) they aren't such bad people after all and 2) there's money to be made by opening your doors to them.

[Daniel]

I think it's fine to discriminate if there's a legitimate reason. For instance if someone turns up and looks rather rough and doesn't look like the sort of person who's going to respect your house. Like you say though if you can say no to gay people then why should you not be able to say no to black people or asian people or northern people etc etc.

Personally I feel that if you own a B&B you should only do so if you don't have such a closed mind as the people who own this house.

[Bob Riebe]

I think it's fine to discriminate if there's a legitimate reason. For instance if someone turns up and looks rather rough and doesn't look like the sort of person who's going to respect your house. Like you say though if you can say no to gay people then why should you not be able to say no to black people or asian people or northern people etc etc.

Personally I feel that if you own a B&B you should only do so if you don't have such a closed mind as the people who own this house.
Hmm, I stayed at small old hotel in South Dakota, which said they did not allow beer in the hotel, and if found to be drinking said same, I would be told to leave.

Damn I did not know they did not have the right to run their business as they so choose.
Evil beerophobic people.

[Daniel]

Hmm, I stayed at small old hotel in South Dakota, which said they did not allow beer in the hotel, and if found to be drinking said same, I would be told to leave.

Damn I did not know they did not have the right to run their business as they so choose.
Evil beerophobic people.
I think having a no beer rule is fine. People who drink beer are probably more likely to be the sorts of people who damage hotel rooms or are rowdy.

[Sonic]

This began with an MP backing the B&B owners did it not? The MP in question got a lot of stick for it if I recall, but I'm with him (and the majority on the board).

If I were a B&B owner, and if I had some irrational problem with, let's say clowns, I should be able to turn them away from my home without needing anymore reason than "its my home and I don't want you here".

Personally I love clowns ;) :D

[BDunnell]

Last week or so in the news there was a story about a male gay couple who were refused a stay at a Bed and Breakfast because the owners didn't want gay men sharing a bed in their house.

Now, while I'm all in favour of consenting adults having a happy relationship with any adult they like, I'm also all for being able to choose who stays in your own home. This story has left me torn.

A B&B here in the UK isn't like a hotel. It's a private house that allows people to stay for cash. A private home. I think that means the owner gets to choose who stays and who doesn't, although in this case I do not agree with that choice at all.
Thing is, if I say it's fine to stops a gay couple staying, am I also saying it's fine to stop a black couple staying? As I said, I'm torn about it all.

Your views?

I understand exactly what you mean. They are clearly quite awful people with neanderthal views — and furthermore, even leaving aside their homophobia, the sort of B&B owners who give the profession a bad name by being completely unwelcoming. Should you choose to open up your home to strangers, you should really be a more open-minded individual. Why do it otherwise? Why only throw your doors open to people who fall into certain categories? I genuinely don't understand that. And yes, to answer your last point, I think that any sort of discrimination could be tolerated if this sort of discrimination is.

[BDunnell]

Hmm, I stayed at small old hotel in South Dakota, which said they did not allow beer in the hotel, and if found to be drinking said same, I would be told to leave.

Damn I did not know they did not have the right to run their business as they so choose.
Evil beerophobic people.

Well, that rule too seems excessive. Don't ban people from doing something, but by all means take action if their behaviour in the course of those actions becomes unacceptable. What people do in the privacy of their own room should be up to them so long as they don't cause a disturbance or do any damage.

By the way, it is interesting that these two were turned away because they were a couple who wanted to share a room. The owners clearly have a problem with homosexuality full stop. Therefore, they should have the same objection to a single homosexual staying with them. After all, a gay couple isn't necessarily going to get up to anything in their room.

[BDunnell]

This began with an MP backing the B&B owners did it not? The MP in question got a lot of stick for it if I recall, but I'm with him (and the majority on the board).

As I said, I too am rather torn on the issue, but I do think that what David Mitchell had to say in the Observer last Sunday was spot-on:

'I don't think that his [Chris Grayling's] suggestion that B&B owners, perhaps balking at how those initials might be interpreted by gay couples, should be allowed to turn them away makes him a homophobe. It just means that he hopes homophobes will vote for him. The fact that he thought he could secure their support without repelling the rest of us shows a curious mixture of cynicism and ineptitude.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/apr/11/david-mitchell-boat-race-politics

[Bob Riebe]

I think having a no beer rule is fine. People who drink beer are probably more likely to be the sorts of people who damage hotel rooms or are rowdy.
Hmm, certain rules for certain people, you have second thoughts about is OK, but the owners are not supposed to be allowed the same grace.
Hypocrisy.
It is also amazing how quickly homosexuals become a separate race when people start throwing around analogies.
It is as asinine as using car insurance as an analogy for being forced to buy health insurance, but then progressives seem to have the same general narrow minded view of what peg to force society into.

[BeansBeansBeans]

The law says that it is illegal to refuse goods or services on account of a person's sexuality. The B&B owners should've been aware of this.

[Bob Riebe]

I understand exactly what you mean. They are clearly quite awful people with neanderthal views — and furthermore, even leaving aside their homophobia, the sort of B&B owners who give the profession a bad name by being completely unwelcoming. Should you choose to open up your home to strangers, you should really be a more open-minded individual. Why do it otherwise? Why only throw your doors open to people who fall into certain categories? I genuinely don't understand that. And yes, to answer your last point, I think that any sort of discrimination could be tolerated if this sort of discrimination is.
You are saying they should operate by the rules YOU think are proper and to hell with what they prefer, for their business and their property; therefore if they do not view things as YOU, you throw out some vacuous insult.

Ah a superiority complex based on personal prejudices as you see proper.
If there is something wrong with the B&B owners, I see no difference between you and they.

An owner should have the right to say no to anyone they wish,(in the U.S. laws do not allow exclusion or special rules because of race) including non-married heterosexual couples, as to a single homosexual, why would he even tell them he is such?

[BeansBeansBeans]

It is illegal to refuse goods or services to a person on the grounds of their sexuality. It isn't illegal to refuse people permission to drink alcohol on your property. Quite simple Mr Riebe.

[Bob Riebe]

It is illegal to refuse goods or services to a person on the grounds of their sexuality. It isn't illegal to refuse people permission to drink alcohol on your property. Quite simple Mr Riebe.
Show me the laws.

So certain prejudices are OK by you, as long as they fit your prejudicial constraints?

At the same time this can, or might spread to religious freedoms as the Muslim religion does not tolerate homosexuality, and in the U.S. Muslims have sometimes been give more freedom to act as their religion dictates (special breaks at work to pray [forced by a court decision in Minn.]); therefore if a Muslim B&B owner were to be the one enforcing such a rule, it would be interesting to see how the U.S. legal heads would react.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am thinking there is what is "right" and what is the law. The law in the UK, and in Canada ( there was a similar complaint to the human right's commissions here a few years back ) states you cannot discriminate based on sexual preference. It is the law you can't do it. Full stop. However, a B and B isn't a motel, it isn't a hotel, and it isn't run by a chain. It is someone's home...and last I time I looked, I as a property owner should have the right to dictate who I want as a house guest.

You can argue all you like that the guy is a homophobe and out to lunch, but it is his home. Personally, I figure the minute you hang out the shingle as a B and B, you better prepared to welcome everyone ethically, but in the end, it is someone's home. I forget how the case in Canada went, but I can guess the B and B operator isn't after spending a lot of money defending himself before one of those kangaroo court human rights tribunals.

The law says you cant discriminate, morally I think it is up to the home owner, despite the fact he is a bit thick in this case.

Private property laws either mean something or they don't, but I must say, the second anyone discriminates against the mores of society, they are really kicking themselves in the privates...because the rep as being unwelcoming will COST you more in money and public goodwill than it is worth.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Show me the laws.

The Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20071263_en_1#l1g4)

[BeansBeansBeans]

I am thinking there is what is "right" and what is the law. The law in the UK, and in Canada ( there was a similar complaint to the human right's commissions here a few years back ) states you cannot discriminate based on sexual preference. It is the law you can't do it. Full stop. However, a B and B isn't a motel, it isn't a hotel, and it isn't run by a chain. It is someone's home...and last I time I looked, I as a property owner should have the right to dictate who I want as a house guest.

You can argue all you like that the guy is a homophobe and out to lunch, but it is his home. Personally, I figure the minute you hang out the shingle as a B and B, you better prepared to welcome everyone ethically, but in the end, it is someone's home. I forget how the case in Canada went, but I can guess the B and B operator isn't after spending a lot of money defending himself before one of those kangaroo court human rights tribunals.

The law says you cant discriminate, morally I think it is up to the home owner, despite the fact he is a bit thick in this case.

Private property laws either mean something or they don't, but I must say, the second anyone discriminates against the mores of society, they are really kicking themselves in the privates...because the rep as being unwelcoming will COST you more in money and public goodwill than it is worth.

Private property laws mean something. However, if you choose to run your home as a commercial business (a guest house or B&B) then you must follow the laws governing the provision of services. End of story.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Show me the laws.

So certain prejudices are OK by you, as long as they fit your prejudicial constraints?

At the same time this can, or might spread to religious freedoms as the Muslim religion does not tolerate homosexuality, and in the U.S. Muslims have sometimes been give more freedom to act as their religion dictates (special breaks at work to pray [forced by a court decision in Minn.]); therefore if a Muslim B&B owner were to be the one enforcing such a rule, it would be interesting to see how the U.S. legal heads would react.

I would love to see a Muslim B and B and what would happen. I would have a gay couple go in there just to see the fireworks!

Freedom of religion meets freedom from discrimination of sexual choice. Oh boy..that would be a lovely mess for the lawyers in whatever nation you pick.

This is a really good discussion because I don't think for a second this B and B owner made a really smart decision at all. He has the right to be wrong however...AS I said..it is his house.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Private property laws mean something. However, if you choose to run your home as a commercial business (a guest house or B&B) then you must follow the laws governing the provision of services. End of story.

Maybe that is the way you see it personally, or the way the law in the UK reads, I don't know, but I am telling you that running a B and B is different than running a motel. A B and B is also YOUR primary home. THAT I would think SHOULD mean something. I agree that is foolish for anyone in the B and B business to discriminate in this fashion, but there is no crime against not liking anyone based on any reason. It is the actions that person takes that make it a potential human rights violation. I am really leary about telling people they cannot have any property rights when they become a B and B. It is a distasteful thing to be out on that limb, but you cannot dictate people love everyone, no matter how much sense it may be.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think the point that is being missed here is that, once you open your home as a business - charging people for the services - it is no longer a private home. It's now a place of business subject to all applicable regulations.

I guess in the end that is the way the law will read and I have no problem with it really if that is the law. I don't like it, because I am a firm believer in private property rights when it comes to one's home, but some where the line has to be drawn, and if that is where it is drawn now, then I am not going to argue with it at this point.

[Easy Drifter]

Mark, Have you forgotten that out favourite (yeah right!!!!!) Prime Minister P.E.T. very deliberately left Property Rights out of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?
That is one reason the MNR can enter your home without a search warrant.
Why the City of Toronto is able to pass laws forbidding you to cut down trees on your own Ppty.
Midland is considering a by law allowing By Law Enforcement Officers the right to enter your Ppty. without permission.
If Ppty. rights had been enshrined in the Charter, as they should have been, then these draconian laws could be challenged in court.
As it stands the Ppty. owner has very few rights unless spelled out in other laws such as the Trespass Act.

[gloomyDAY]

The gay dudes could have pinky-promised that they wouldn't have butt sex during the duration of their stay. :p OK OK OK! Gay jokes aside, the people running this bed and breakfast are pretty stupid. Discriminating against particular guests is probably going to hurt their reputation and their bottom line. Also, I would much rather deal with pleasant homos than hetero cretins.

[Bob Riebe]

The Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20071263_en_1#l1g4)
I started reading this piece which is vague at best, but does it mean that Muslims must take in homosexuals even though it is against their religion?

[Bob Riebe]

The gay dudes could have pinky-promised that they wouldn't have butt sex during the duration of their stay. :p OK OK OK! Gay jokes aside, the people running this bed and breakfast are pretty stupid. Discriminating against particular guests is probably going to hurt their reputation

With whom?

[Roamy]

ain't checking in to brokeback hotel

that sh!t ain't right - that sh!t ain't right. :)

So did the fags sue?? How did the story end? That seems to be the point of the deal. Either they were allowed to discriminate or not. If I ever own a B and B it will be in Montana :)

[gloomyDAY]

With whom?This is in the UK. Most plain folk are going to look down on this little B&B with a little disdain.


ain't checking in to brokeback hotel

that sh!t ain't right - that sh!t ain't right. :)

So did the fags sue?? How did the story end? That seems to be the point of the deal. Either they were allowed to discriminate or not. If I ever own a B and B it will be in Montana :) lmfao!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, Have you forgotten that out favourite (yeah right!!!!!) Prime Minister P.E.T. very deliberately left Property Rights out of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?
That is one reason the MNR can enter your home without a search warrant.
Why the City of Toronto is able to pass laws forbidding you to cut down trees on your own Ppty.
Midland is considering a by law allowing By Law Enforcement Officers the right to enter your Ppty. without permission.
If Ppty. rights had been enshrined in the Charter, as they should have been, then these draconian laws could be challenged in court.
As it stands the Ppty. owner has very few rights unless spelled out in other laws such as the Trespass Act.

Geeze...I forgot. Stupid me...I thought paying a mortgage and having my name on the deed would give me some rights. I forgot, the greatest waste of time we ever had as leader brought us a Charter of Rights that didn't give us property rights provisions...

OH hell...never mind....

[Mark in Oshawa]

I started reading this piece which is vague at best, but does it mean that Muslims must take in homosexuals even though it is against their religion?

Well the Idea of Muslims being in the B and B business is a stretch...but by god you have to know if one Muslim family does, you can bet some gay activist and his lover will be all over it, and I want to see how the PC crowd twists themselves into a pretzels trying to decide who is in the wrong.

Personally, what people do behind closed doors in their bedroom, even if it is rented should be their business as long as it is by consent and no laws are broken. In short.....If I am a B and B owner, I know the gay guys are not going to trash and destroy the place like a drunk who likes to beat on his wife will....

[Eki]

A B&B here in the UK isn't like a hotel. It's a private house that allows people to stay for cash. A private home. I think that means the owner gets to choose who stays and who doesn't, although in this case I do not agree with that choice at all.
I must admit of being B&Bphobic. I wouldn't feel comfortable to stay at a home of strangers. I prefer to stay in a motel or a hotel instead. Maybe it's an alien concept to Finns, I don't know any B&Bs here.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I must admit of being B&Bphobic. I wouldn't feel comfortable to stay at a home of strangers. I prefer to stay in a motel or a hotel instead. Maybe it's an alien concept to Finns, I don't know any B&Bs here.

Some places I would agree with, but I have stayed in a few, and MOST have pretty separate areas from the living wings of the house. They are big in North America, and apparently the UK.

[555-04Q2]

I don't see a problem here. I also turn people away that I don't want in my house. It's my sanctuary and tough luck if you don't like my decision, it's my right.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't see a problem here. I also turn people away that I don't want in my house. It's my sanctuary and tough luck if you don't like my decision, it's my right.

The problem is if the law states that once you open your doors to strangers for pay, you are running a business. In the UK, this means it isn't your home any more, it is a hotel, and you cannot discriminate on guests in a hotel based on sexual preference.

I hear where you are coming from man....I am all for property rights, but I am afraid the law has pretty much been gutted from them in a lot of nations.

Sadly, that would likely include the US, or it will soon.

[Daniel]

I guess in the end that is the way the law will read and I have no problem with it really if that is the law. I don't like it, because I am a firm believer in private property rights when it comes to one's home, but some where the line has to be drawn, and if that is where it is drawn now, then I am not going to argue with it at this point.

If you don't want gays, muslims, people with one leg longer than the other staying in your house then don't open a B&B

[Mark]

A B&B here in the UK isn't like a hotel. It's a private house that allows people to stay for cash. A private home. I think that means the owner gets to choose who stays and who doesn't, although in this case I do not agree with that choice at all.
Thing is, if I say it's fine to stops a gay couple staying, am I also saying it's fine to stop a black couple staying? As I said, I'm torn about it all.


It may be someones home. However it's also a business. And as BBB says, it's illegal to refuse someone service on grounds of their sexuality. Same as it would also be illegal to stop a black couple staying.

However it's *not* illegal to refuse someone service because they have died their hair green, or other trivial things.

In these cases the people concerned would have to prove they were discriminated against, which if the B&B owner had said that's why they aren't allowed to stay, wouldn't be too much of a problem!

[Mark]

I must admit of being B&Bphobic. I wouldn't feel comfortable to stay at a home of strangers. I prefer to stay in a motel or a hotel instead. Maybe it's an alien concept to Finns, I don't know any B&Bs here.

Me too. For some reason a lot of people will only stay in B&B's. Personally I want a nice, modern, clean hotel room, and as little interaction with the staff and other guests as possible!

[Eki]

Me too. For some reason a lot of people will only stay in B&B's. Personally I want a nice, modern, clean hotel room, and as little interaction with the staff and other guests as possible!
Same here. Actually I prefer motels where I can walk strait from the car to my room any time I want without having to pass the reception desk or even doormen as in hotels.

[markabilly]

Mark, Have you forgotten that out favourite (yeah right!!!!!) Prime Minister P.E.T. very deliberately left Property Rights out of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?
That is one reason the MNR can enter your home without a search warrant.
Why the City of Toronto is able to pass laws forbidding you to cut down trees on your own Ppty.
Midland is considering a by law allowing By Law Enforcement Officers the right to enter your Ppty. without permission.
If Ppty. rights had been enshrined in the Charter, as they should have been, then these draconian laws could be challenged in court.
As it stands the Ppty. owner has very few rights unless spelled out in other laws such as the Trespass Act.

Huh??? :confused:

That ain't right----You must be wrong, or if you are right, it must be wrong

Otherwise what good is a search warrant if you do not need it to be searching someone's home??

this means search warrant's only use is for searching in public places?

That makes real good sense.........Guess a strip search on a public street in front of everyone is not okay without a warrant, but one conducted in someone's home or other private place is okay

BTW---Just have a rule that says only one person per room and bed is allowed at one time. Without discriminating between homo and hetro.

Either inclination of people get to going at it in the middle of night can really be disturbing with those moans, screams, headbanging, wallbanging and squeaking.

Now that I solved that problem, back to the search warrants.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

If you don't want gays, muslims, people with one leg longer than the other staying in your house then don't open a B&B

Common sense would dictate that Daniel, but if sense was common, we wouldn't read about this stuff.

[Eki]

Me too. For some reason a lot of people will only stay in B&B's. Personally I want a nice, modern, clean hotel room, and as little interaction with the staff and other guests as possible!
Mark, you'd probably love this concept of a Finnish hotel chain:

http://www.omenahotels.com/concept


Omena Hotels is a new no-frills hotel chain, which offers high-class accommodation at a significantly lower rate than the general price level. At Omena, you do not pay for services that you do not need. We do not have a reception or sales office in every hotel, but a common remote reception at your service 24/7. You book your room on the Internet without having to queue to a sales office. Having completed your booking, you will receive a booking confirmation, which includes the room number and a personal door code that is valid throughout your stay. No further check-in or check-out procedures are needed.

Human interaction is kept to the minimum.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, you'd probably love this concept of a Finnish hotel chain:

http://www.omenahotels.com/concept



Human interaction is kept to the minimum.

Eki, somehow this dovetails with that 60 minutes story about the stoic, humourless Finns who don't really like that much human interaction...lol..

I didn't believe the story then, but now...well....your statement "Human interaction is kept to the minimum" I think maybe Morley Safer was not all wet after all..

[Daniel]

Eki, somehow this dovetails with that 60 minutes story about the stoic, humourless Finns who don't really like that much human interaction...lol..

I didn't believe the story then, but now...well....your statement "Human interaction is kept to the minimum" I think maybe Morley Safer was not all wet after all..
From my ~2 weeks in Finland I wouldn't say that Finns don't like human contact, it just seems to me that they don't see the point of having human contact if they don't need to.

[BeansBeansBeans]

From my ~2 weeks in Finland I wouldn't say that Finns don't like human contact, it just seems to me that they don't see the point of having human contact if they don't need to.

Thanks for the insight Daniel. I've always admired the Finnish outlook, though admittedly it is based on stereotypes and a tiny bit of knowledge about four or five famous Finns!

I remember Jake Humphrey interviewing Heikki Kovalainen at home in Finland. He asked Heikki whether it was hard to go about his business in his home nation, with everyone looking at him, pointing, wanting autographs...etc Heikki looked at him like he was nuts, saying something like "No, in Finland, nobody really cares if you're famous or not."

[Roamy]

I wonder what they would do if you checked in with a "Screamer" :)

[Roamy]

The best policy in running a B&B is to be sure your clients pay on check in. That's so they don't get in arears. :p
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Well I won't be going to any B & B in Greece at any point in my lifetime :)

[Easy Drifter]

Markabilly: Police need a search warrant. MNR (Ministry of Natural Reasourses) do not although they are supposed to have cause.
The result is, especially on the water the Provincial Police go out with the MNR who can check for illegal fish and if something else turns up then the cops are right there.
Same on a house or business search. The cops love to go along. Story is to protect the MNR Officer. Minor detail the MNR Officer carries the same sidearm as the cop.
As far as I know there has never been a court challenge when the cops find something but sooner or later there will be on probable cause and or illegal search.
The proposal by the Midland Town Council to give a By Law officer the right to enter private Ppty. without a warrant has not been passed as yet. I am sure it will be challenged in court if it is passed.

[Garry Walker]

It should be up to the B&B owner to decide who he accepts and who he doesnt. Simple as that. If he has a problem with someone, then tough luck, that person has to fcuk off.

[Bob Riebe]

Markabilly: Police need a search warrant. MNR (Ministry of Natural Reasourses) do not although they are supposed to have cause.
The result is, especially on the water the Provincial Police go out with the MNR who can check for illegal fish and if something else turns up then the cops are right there.
Same on a house or business search. The cops love to go along. Story is to protect the MNR Officer. Minor detail the MNR Officer carries the same sidearm as the cop.
As far as I know there has never been a court challenge when the cops find something but sooner or later there will be on probable cause and or illegal search.
The proposal by the Midland Town Council to give a By Law officer the right to enter private Ppty. without a warrant has not been passed as yet. I am sure it will be challenged in court if it is passed.

In Minn. the DNR (separtment of natural resources) is the only law enforcement agency that can enter without a search warrant, but they can also arrest for any crime without the need for other police agencies.

[BeansBeansBeans]

It should be up to the B&B owner to decide who he accepts and who he doesnt. Simple as that. If he has a problem with someone, then tough luck, that person has to fcuk off.

Everything is simple in Garryworld.

Personally if I booked a room in a B&B and arrived to be told I wasn't welcome without good reason, I'd be as miffed as these two chaps.

[Garry Walker]

Everything is simple in Garryworld.

Personally if I booked a room in a B&B and arrived to be told I wasn't welcome without good reason, I'd be as miffed as these two chaps.
Yes, you would be. With a reason. But I still stand by my point.

btw: for that owner, refusing to have 2 gays under his roof was a good reason, because it was against his religious beliefs. Now, I despise religion, but everyone has a right to practise theirs. So too this man.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Does this extend to other businesses? If you rolled up at the only petrol station for miles with only fumes in your tank, how would you feel if the owner refused to serve you because he didn't approve of your sexuality? Personally, I'd probably think "This sort of thing should be illegal!"

Thankfully it is.

[Garry Walker]

Does this extend to other businesses? If you rolled up at the only petrol station for miles with only fumes in your tank, how would you feel if the owner refused to serve you because he didn't approve of your sexuality? Personally, I'd probably think "This sort of thing should be illegal!"

Thankfully it is.

Very unlikely to happen, but in any case, those are not quite the same things.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I'd just like to point out that the B&B owner in this case was female. It's not an important point but for some reason everyone seems to assume it was a man.

[gloomyDAY]

Can someone post the article on the incident?

[BeansBeansBeans]

Can someone post the article on the incident?

Sure. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/21/gay-couple-refused-hotel-room)

[gloomyDAY]

Sure. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/21/gay-couple-refused-hotel-room)Thanks.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/3/21/1269194671003/Michael-Black-left-and-Jo-001.jpg

Unfortunately, I agree with the owner. I would never let someone like the guy on the right anywhere near my home.


Mrs Wilkinson said: "I don't see why I should change my mind and my beliefs I've held for years just because the government should force it on me. "The property is not a hotel. It operates as a guest house and private home."

[BeansBeansBeans]

I'm wary of who I allow into my house. So I don't rent the rooms out to strangers in exchange for cash. Simple really.

[Eki]

Everything is simple in Garryworld.

Personally if I booked a room in a B&B and arrived to be told I wasn't welcome without good reason, I'd be as miffed as these two chaps.
Be careful or you'll end up on Garry's list of cretins like I did.

[Tomi]

He asked Heikki whether it was hard to go about his business in his home nation, with everyone looking at him, pointing, wanting autographs...etc Heikki looked at him like he was nuts, saying something like "No, in Finland, nobody really cares if you're famous or not."

Thats true mr.beans, there is many who can do their job well, not only car drivers, but the media for some reason likes to make hype about the others, like when beckham was here some time ago to get his foot operated it was quite much fuss about him, but in reality the real star was the guy who operated his foot.

[Eki]

Thats true mr.beans, there is many who can do their job well, not only car drivers, but the media for some reason likes to make hype about the others, like when beckham was here some time ago to get his foot operated it was quite much fuss about him, but in reality the real star was the guy who operated his foot.
Finns fuss only about foreign stars.

[Mark in Oshawa]

No, they are exactly the same thing. We're talking about the provision of a service or commodity for pay. To allow discrimination toward any one sex, race, orientation, national origin, hair color or whatever opens the door for discrimination for any reason what so ever.

If we are going to consider a B and B just another hotel, then you are 100% correct. My only feeling is a B and B should have a little more discretiion since it is the home that the owner actually lives in. I don't approve of what happened here, and I wouldn't be in the B and B business if I felt as this owner does, but it is a very gray area in my mind. Some would say as soon as you take money for that spare room, you sacrifice those rights, and I suppose that is the way the law has come down, but I am really leary about how this principle could be extended to further erode the right of a private property owner.

[Tomi]

Finns fuss only about foreign stars.

Yes but not so much i think, i have a friend who use to be bodyguard for those famous, music and movie people who sometimes visit here, he said they are surprised how people let them be in peace.
I think thats why Vettel and other F1 guys like to be here, nobody is hanging in the clothes all the time.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes but not so much i think, i have a friend who use to be bodyguard for those famous, music and movie people who sometimes visit here, he said they are surprised how people let them be in peace.
I think thats why Vettel and other F1 guys like to be here, nobody is hanging in the clothes all the time.

Vettel could walk down just about any street in Canada and not be really recognized. Other than Hamilton or maybe Alonso, I wouldn't know for sure if I was looking at an F1 guy in the flesh if he walked by me. So I might just say in Finland maybe you guys may not recognize them as who they are.

Now...if Jeff Gordon or Dale Earnhardt Jr, or Paul Tracy walks down a Canadian street, THEY will be recognized in short order, although with Jeff or Dale, one might wonder what the heck they were doing up here!

[Tomi]

Vettel could walk down just about any street in Canada and not be really recognized. Other than Hamilton or maybe Alonso, I wouldn't know for sure if I was looking at an F1 guy in the flesh if he walked by me. So I might just say in Finland maybe you guys may not recognize them as who they are.

Now...if Jeff Gordon or Dale Earnhardt Jr, or Paul Tracy walks down a Canadian street, THEY will be recognized in short order, although with Jeff or Dale, one might wonder what the heck they were doing up here!

Maybe so, those guys you mentioned i dont think i never heard about.

[christophulus]

I can't really see the distinction between a B&B and a hotel. You pay money for a room, regardless of whether it's someone's house or not. So while the owners have the right to refuse entry to their house, they accepted money so they're now operating a business, and rules have to apply. If you want to be picky about your guests, maybe operating a B&B isn't for you..

[Eki]

Now...if Jeff Gordon or Dale Earnhardt Jr, or Paul Tracy walks down a Canadian street, THEY will be recognized in short order, although with Jeff or Dale, one might wonder what the heck they were doing up here!
The only reaction here might be:

http://www.woosk.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/banjos.jpg

[gloomyDAY]

:laugh:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Maybe so, those guys you mentioned i dont think i never heard about.
Well people who follow NASCAR and many who don't know who follow still would know them. Much of the art of famous people being able to be have an ordinary experience in public is going where they wont be recognized. Like I said, Vettel would not be known by many over here, just like NASCAR guys in Finland wouldn't stand out...unless of course they started to speak.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The only reaction here might be:

http://www.woosk.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/banjos.jpg

Now those guys are not in the woods...sheesh...you only hear the banjo's in the hills of Northern Georgia!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Christo has it right in his post below yours. But to further expound - Let's say I build an apartment building, with my own money. I own that puppy. I decide to live in one of those apartments as my full time permanent home. Does that give me the right to refuse to rent to a black man; a French man; a woman; a catholic? Nope. It's a business and all rules pertaining to a business apply.

The same applies when the state inspector shows up at a B&B. If it was your private home then you could legally refuse him permission to enter, without consequence. However, because you've hired it out, he has the right to enter and inspect - and close you down if you don't pass the inspection.

Hey, I can buy all that...but I always treated any time I was in a B and B as if I was in their home...unlike if I rented a apartment or hotel suite.

[Easy Drifter]

There are a few things both B&Bs and Hotels/Motels can demand. One is no pets. Another is no smoking. Most Hotels/Motels do have rooms set aside for smoking but Ont. law bans smoking in any public or work area in any building. That includes restaurants and bars.
B&B's can also state no liquor as can Campgrounds.
Guide or working dogs are excluded from the ban. They must be permitted.
Some Provincial Campgrouds ban all liquor for the May 24 weekend. Too many University and College students just out for the summer having huge drunken parties.
It created a major problem at Mosport in the 70's for the early pro races. Actually at one time any pro race at Mosport.
Current ownership has changed that.

[Roamy]

Thanks.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/3/21/1269194671003/Michael-Black-left-and-Jo-001.jpg

Unfortunately, I agree with the owner. I would never let someone like the guy on the right anywhere near my home.


nice - the packer family
fudge and fecal

[BDunnell]

You are saying they should operate by the rules YOU think are proper and to hell with what they prefer, for their business and their property; therefore if they do not view things as YOU, you throw out some vacuous insult.

Ah a superiority complex based on personal prejudices as you see proper.
If there is something wrong with the B&B owners, I see no difference between you and they.

An owner should have the right to say no to anyone they wish,(in the U.S. laws do not allow exclusion or special rules because of race) including non-married heterosexual couples, as to a single homosexual, why would he even tell them he is such?

Do inform me as to which groups you would not permit to enter your home, then. I'm sure it's a charming abode, by the way.

[ioan]

Last week or so in the news there was a story about a male gay couple who were refused a stay at a Bed and Breakfast because the owners didn't want gay men sharing a bed in their house.

Now, while I'm all in favour of consenting adults having a happy relationship with any adult they like, I'm also all for being able to choose who stays in your own home. This story has left me torn.

A B&B here in the UK isn't like a hotel. It's a private house that allows people to stay for cash. A private home. I think that means the owner gets to choose who stays and who doesn't, although in this case I do not agree with that choice at all.
Thing is, if I say it's fine to stops a gay couple staying, am I also saying it's fine to stop a black couple staying? As I said, I'm torn about it all.

Your views?

It's a question of how much money the owner is making and how he is able or not to keep up with the realities of life.

As far as I care if it's a man and a woman, two men or two women who share a bed somewhere in a room for rent in my house it makes no difference (well the two women scenario is more appealing ;) ).

[BDunnell]

The law in the UK, and in Canada ( there was a similar complaint to the human right's commissions here a few years back ) states you cannot discriminate based on sexual preference. It is the law you can't do it. Full stop.

The problem only arises when it's a gay couple wanting to share a room, no matter what they get up to in there. Would it be deemed acceptable for a single person to be asked what their sexuality is in such circumstances?



Private property laws either mean something or they don't, but I must say, the second anyone discriminates against the mores of society, they are really kicking themselves in the privates...because the rep as being unwelcoming will COST you more in money and public goodwill than it is worth.

Exactly right.

[BDunnell]

Well the Idea of Muslims being in the B and B business is a stretch...but by god you have to know if one Muslim family does, you can bet some gay activist and his lover will be all over it, and I want to see how the PC crowd twists themselves into a pretzels trying to decide who is in the wrong.

I dislike the notion that those people who object to a homosexual couple being refused admission to a B&B are somehow part of the 'PC crowd', as though to consider this wrong is somehow an extreme viewpoint rather than just a matter of standing up for common human decency and politeness.



Personally, what people do behind closed doors in their bedroom, even if it is rented should be their business as long as it is by consent and no laws are broken. In short.....If I am a B and B owner, I know the gay guys are not going to trash and destroy the place like a drunk who likes to beat on his wife will....

Well, quite.

[BDunnell]

The problem is if the law states that once you open your doors to strangers for pay, you are running a business. In the UK, this means it isn't your home any more, it is a hotel, and you cannot discriminate on guests in a hotel based on sexual preference.

I hear where you are coming from man....I am all for property rights, but I am afraid the law has pretty much been gutted from them in a lot of nations.

I don't consider it unreasonable at all to categorise a B&B in the same way as an hotel for legal purposes. The notion of opening up a selective B&B strikes me as absurd.

[BDunnell]

Be careful or you'll end up on Garry's list of cretins like I did.

To be honest, there's not a great deal of careful selection that goes into the compilation of that list.

[BDunnell]

It's a question of how much money the owner is making

Why?

[markabilly]

Why?

I think he is thinking in terms of how big the operation is.
I have seen some where the B and B is a big house converted over the a hotel type arrangment and is clearly commercial, including some being run by people hired to run it, while the owners watch over their chain of B&Bs located where ever.

Others are truly a homeowner, who maybe needs some cash & they have what some might call a boarder or maybe they want some company but the owner really lives in the house as their home, not as a large scale business operation. The latteer I have a great deal of sympathy for, the former I do not...

[BDunnell]

I think he is thinking in terms of how big the operation is.
I have seen some where the B and B is a big house converted over the a hotel type arrangment and is clearly commercial, including some being run by people hired to run it, while the owners watch over their chain of B&Bs located where ever.

Others are truly a homeowner, who maybe needs some cash & they have what some might call a boarder or maybe they want some company but the owner really lives in the house as their home, not as a large scale business operation. The latteer I have a great deal of sympathy for, the former I do not...

Ah, that I see.

[Hondo]

I see the B&B issue as no different than privately owned charter yachts. Many are crewed by their owners, especially the sailboats, and all will have a list of what is provided and what is acceptable and what is not. Gay, nude, smoking, pets, children are all decisions left up to the yacht owner or charter captain. Some owners have live aboard cats and dogs that the guests might have to tolerate or look for another charter. I don't think it's ever been a problem in the charter business.

[airshifter]

Personally I think any business owner should have the right to refuse service to anyone they desire. If anything I think the laws should only require that they advertise what restrictions they might have. Any business that the public felt was too restrictive would likely fail.

In this case, a couple with religious beliefs is forced to compromise their beliefs to comply with the law. Is this not discrimination against their religion?

The majority of "rules" in establishments discriminate against somebody, but it seems that only in some cases does the law become involved.

[Eki]

I see the B&B issue as no different than privately owned charter yachts. Many are crewed by their owners, especially the sailboats, and all will have a list of what is provided and what is acceptable and what is not. Gay, nude, smoking, pets, children are all decisions left up to the yacht owner or charter captain. Some owners have live aboard cats and dogs that the guests might have to tolerate or look for another charter. I don't think it's ever been a problem in the charter business.
Do they also have nude, smoking gay captains with children?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Personally I think any business owner should have the right to refuse service to anyone they desire. If anything I think the laws should only require that they advertise what restrictions they might have. Any business that the public felt was too restrictive would likely fail.

In this case, a couple with religious beliefs is forced to compromise their beliefs to comply with the law. Is this not discrimination against their religion?

The majority of "rules" in establishments discriminate against somebody, but it seems that only in some cases does the law become involved.

This is the point I should have made earlier. At some point, the religious belief's of the B and B owner are being ignored. In this case, I get that they are in the wrong since they are putting a room out for use by the public, but what about instances where religious intolerance of homosexuality? I don't think gays can be discriminated against getting lodging, getting a table at a restaurant, or any other public place. There isn't room for it because in the end, they can't help their preference, it just IS. However, when it comes to religion, you are talking about a belief system that is running at times (in the case of evangelical faith's and the Catholic Church, not to mention Islam) in the face of it? What if a gay couple decides they want to join a church? We can all agree that there is conflict here and we can all agree that the gay couple shouldn't be discriminated against EXCEPT...and here is the rub, you cannot impose a belief system into a religion that isn't in the face of the law's of the land. What are the laws on this? Should a Catholic diocese be forced to marry two gays in a state where there is gay marriage? Can the political state put that sort of pressure and force the issue? Should they? Most states have religious freedom laws, and that pretty much would be a really thorny issue.

At some point, this is just the tip of the iceberg. I think there has to be some accomodation, but a religion is based on all the member of it believing in one set of princples. Like it or not, some of them may not always jive with the mores of society. Good luck becoming a Muslim if you are gay, and ditto becoming a Catholic? OH my..I can see the courts just chock full of lawyers arguing this one....

[Roamy]

Do they also have nude, smoking gay captains with children?


Well they did but the Muslims shot them :)

[Hondo]

Do they also have nude, smoking gay captains with children?

For the right price, somebody could probably provide one for you.

[Bob Riebe]

Do inform me as to which groups you would not permit to enter your home, then. I'm sure it's a charming abode, by the way.
Who said I would not allow anyone, you are trolling.

For the record among people that entered my abode, were an armed robber and a pimp, both who later spent time in the crow-bar motel, and yes they were guests.

[Mark]

Christo has it right in his post below yours. But to further expound - Let's say I build an apartment building, with my own money. I own that puppy. I decide to live in one of those apartments as my full time permanent home. Does that give me the right to refuse to rent to a black man; a French man; a woman; a catholic? Nope. It's a business and all rules pertaining to a business apply.

The same applies when the state inspector shows up at a B&B. If it was your private home then you could legally refuse him permission to enter, without consequence. However, because you've hired it out, he has the right to enter and inspect - and close you down if you don't pass the inspection.

But if you are living in a house and you decide to rent out a room to someone. In that case it is perfectly legal for you to choose who to rent that room to.

[Mark]

I think he is thinking in terms of how big the operation is.
I have seen some where the B and B is a big house converted over the a hotel type arrangment and is clearly commercial, including some being run by people hired to run it, while the owners watch over their chain of B&Bs located where ever.

Others are truly a homeowner, who maybe needs some cash & they have what some might call a boarder or maybe they want some company but the owner really lives in the house as their home, not as a large scale business operation. The latteer I have a great deal of sympathy for, the former I do not...

Well the law is different on that too. If you just want to rent out your spare room for a bit of cash, you are entitled to choose who you want to stay there and who you do not. Although technically you would be commiting an offence still if you refused someone because of race / sexuality etc, most people are choosy who they want as housemates and it's acceptable to be so, as it's quite different to renting a room on a nightly rate.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I do not respect the religious beliefs of anybody. However, I'm happy to live-and-let-live providing laws and general decency are upheld.

[Easy Drifter]

Quite a few B&B owner here put in their ads if they have dogs or cats and others advise no pets. Some say no liquor.

I wonder if my ad saying venomous snakes is why I don't get any customers? :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

[Garry Walker]

I noticed many ads for gay stuff when surfing this thread :D

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7609/gaystuff.jpg

[markabilly]

Well the law is different on that too. If you just want to rent out your spare room for a bit of cash, you are entitled to choose who you want to stay there and who you do not. Although technically you would be commiting an offence still if you refused someone because of race / sexuality etc, most people are choosy who they want as housemates and it's acceptable to be so, as it's quite different to renting a room on a nightly rate.
seems to me to be the same, be it one day/night only each time or a month.....I would want to be able to say who stays and who does not-discrminatory or not, in my home.
But at some point, it does become a clearly commercial operation, in one's home or not.

[markabilly]

I think Walker just revealed what he has been doing and where he has been surfing....as that is how these popups are determined to appear on your computer.....

I have never gotten such. Mine have always been car ads and such true macho stuff.... :D :D

[markabilly]

Quite a few B&B owner here put in their ads if they have dogs or cats and others advise no pets. Some say no liquor.

I wonder if my ad saying venomous snakes is why I don't get any customers? :eek: :eek: :eek: :D
No, it is all those scalps hanging from the front door and donkey buzzards on the roof

[BDunnell]

A big can of worms opens up in that case because if I were to check in to their B&B with my unmarried girlfriend, they would have to refuse us too as we would effectively contravene the very code they have chosen to live by.

There are all sorts of scenarios. Two gay people, one male and one female, would presumably not cause a problem in the way that two gay men would. And would two straight men wanting to share a room for cost reasons, for instance, be forced to say whether or not they were gay? The whole thing is nonsensical.

[BDunnell]

seems to me to be the same, be it one day/night only each time or a month.....I would want to be able to say who stays and who does not-discrminatory or not, in my home.

But would you seek to discriminate against certain types of person on the 'blanket' basis of a characteristic of theirs, rather than individuals on the basis that you wouldn't like them in your home? From what you've said so far in this discussion, I'm sure the answer is no.

[markabilly]

But would you seek to discriminate against certain types of person on the 'blanket' basis of a characteristic of theirs, rather than individuals on the basis that you wouldn't like them in your home? From what you've said so far in this discussion, I'm sure the answer is no.
Well there are some gay couples who I already know that I would let in my home and even more hetrosexual couples I would not want within a mile of my home......

and would not let Drifter in, NEVER, even if he agreed to park his snakes on my front porch rather than under my bed. :mad:

Problem is dealing with strangers and making snap decisions based mostly on appearances and guessing...because there is no real opportunity to get to know them.

so the unavoidable tendency is to exclude people solely based on how they appear and first act. The problem with that approach, is that many psycho serial killers are often very charming people :D and you do not know the truth until too late :eek:

So that is why i guess I do not B and B in my home....

[BDunnell]

Well there are some gay couples who I already know that I would let in my home and even more hetrosexual couples I would not want within a mile of my home......

and would not let Drifter in, NEVER, even if he agreed to park his snakes on my front porch rather than under my bed. :mad:

Problem is dealing with strangers and making snap decisions based mostly on appearances and guessing...because there is no real opportunity to get to know them.

so the unavoidable tendency is to exclude people solely based on how they appear and first act. The problem with that approach, is that many psycho serial killers are often very charming people :D and you do not know the truth until too late :eek:

So that is why i guess I do not B and B in my home....

You make some genuinely good points all round.

[Alexamateo]

Do they also have nude, smoking gay captains with children?



:s ailor: :monkeedan :imu: :s mokin: :dog:

[F1boat]

The law says that it is illegal to refuse goods or services on account of a person's sexuality. The B&B owners should've been aware of this.

I agree. Homophobia is disgusting and primitive.

[Roamy]

I agree. Homophobia is disgusting and primitive.


Yea I have no problem with gorgeous lesbians. Especially if they are
"bi"

[markabilly]

Yea I have no problem with gorgeous lesbians. Especially if they are
"bi"

Then I am certain that you and Boat, would have been more than happy to have had
Aileen Carol Pratt-Wuornos and her friend Tyria Moore come stay for a few days.
In their younger days, they were fairly attractive and into being "bi", and no doubt, entertained you all very well :D

[Roamy]

I think in this country it depends on how many rooms you have to rent.
If it under so many you are not subject to discrimination laws. Or other hotel/motel either.

[Roamy]

Then I am certain that you and Boat, would have been more than happy to have had
Aileen Carol Pratt-Wuornos and her friend Tyria Moore come stay for a few days.
In their younger days, they were fairly attractive and into being "bi", and no doubt, entertained you all very well :D

Yee Haw I still have a set of "spurs"

[markabilly]

You make some genuinely good points all round.
Thanks, It just seems to me when you start talking about letting folks into your actual home to spend the night, you really do need to be making careful selections, but how can you realistically do that except by discriminating based on mere appearances which is a very unreliable method, regardless of any laws?

And when you simply open the door to anyone, well, it just seems to be asking for trouble.

And as to going around the B & B to be spending the night, well the same rule might apply, as you never know, the sweet little ole granny whose real name is Dorothea Puente, might have a special dessert for you.

[Roamy]

Marky I will give your two to Boat free of charge and take for myself Michelle Bonilla

[markabilly]

Marky I will give your two to Boat free of charge and take for myself Michelle Bonilla
Okay. Just be sure to get Dorothea to cook your dinner before you wonder off to the bedroom with Michelle :)

[BDunnell]

It just seems to me when you start talking about letting folks into your actual home to spend the night, you really do need to be making careful selections, but how can you realistically do that except by discriminating based on mere appearances which is a very unreliable method, regardless of any laws?

And when you simply open the door to anyone, well, it just seems to be asking for trouble.

Exactly!