The Elephant in the room [Archive]

Valve Bounce

5th April 2010, 09:49

While everyone has politely ignored it, everyone who witnessed teh podium celebrations must have seen that Mark Webber was "NOT HAPPY"
Mark Webber had won the start and was going nicely into the Turn 1; the he pulled to the left to get a better line into the corner and Vettel dived through for what was the move that gave him the win.

Now! was there some sort of agreement not to barge into Turn 1 between the drivers? Sorta like a Prost + Senna understanding?
or was there some instruction from Horner to take it easy and not take each other out?
Were team orders give out at some stage for Mark to simply hold back and look after his tyres?

I'm intrigued and looking for a juicy discussion. Any others fell something not quite right?

EuroTroll

5th April 2010, 09:58

Maybe he was unhappy because Vettel won and he didn't?

Juicy, I know. :p :

aryan

5th April 2010, 10:09

In motor racing, only one thing really matters: beating your team mate.

Mark is being comprehensively beaten by Vettel. And he knows that he's contract is up this year and Kimi is just waiting. I'm not surprised he's not happy, especially that he started from pole.

Mia 01

5th April 2010, 11:04

Mark knows that nothing is sorted for next year.

Some pressure.

Saint Devote

5th April 2010, 11:14

Beating one's teammate is one thing but the only people that that is neccessary for is the team management.

If there was an agreement of sorts, then it was unethical for Sebastian. If not then nothing more.

Winning at all costs is not part of motor racing. It is nothing new since the past 28 years or so and was aggravated by the banning of team orders in a knee-jerk reaction to "fan" emotions. Ferrari were correct and the FIA and the world were indeed wrong. That Barrichello did not speak up and acted in his usual emotionalist way.

I do not think that there was an "agreement" and that if there was then it did look as if Mark ran wide. The RBR drivers have a good relationship and Vettel is not a dirty driver or resort to tactics that is becoming synomymous with Hamilton.

steveaki13

5th April 2010, 13:08

In motor racing, only one thing really matters: beating your team mate.

No! Only one thing matters in Motor Racing. Beat Everyone :D

callum122

5th April 2010, 13:36

It must be tough dealing with the fact you are being comprehensively beaten by your team mate, who happens to be 11 years your junior. I like Mark, great having an Aussie on the grid but I've never felt he is the real deal. He doesn't seem to have it all together mentally and if he doesn't start showing up Vettel soon, I fear he will just fall to bits. With his contract running out looming ahead that will only make him worse. I expect to see some average performances from Webber later this season.
I don't think there were team orders or instructions for Webber to go easy on tyres. I think Webber lets it get to his head and that beats him.

steveaki13

5th April 2010, 14:17

IMO I think Mark struggles to come to terms with a superior team mate, in the past he liked to dominate his team mate on and off track.
Remember Alex Yoong, Pizzonia, Klien in his early years
Then he had had Heidfeld, Rosberg who were more his equal but on his day he could beat.
Then came Coulthard who on the whole Webber was superior too, but now he has Vettel who is really for the first time in Marks career, completely over shadowing him.
i know he beat Vettel on occasions last year, but this season Vettel has been way ahead in the first two races and then turned it around when Mark was actually ahead in Malaysia..
All of which I don't think Mark Webber is happy or used to dealing with.

Ent

5th April 2010, 14:19

It must be tough dealing with the fact you are being comprehensively beaten by your team mate...

Um, actually, I think it's the other way around. The fact that he wasn't 'comprehensively beaten' by his team mate might have been the cause for his disappointment. He pretty much stuck with Vettel throughout the race, so he knew he had the pace to beat him if he'd had been leading, making the mistake at the start that much more costly. I believe that was the face of a man who should have won the race, and knew he should have, but took the first corner too easy and blew it.

Ranger

5th April 2010, 14:50

Um, actually, I think it's the other way around. The fact that he wasn't 'comprehensively beaten' by his team mate might have been the cause for his disappointment. He pretty much stuck with Vettel throughout the race, so he knew he had the pace to beat him if he'd had been leading, making the mistake at the start that much more costly. I believe that was the face of a man who should have won the race, and knew he should have, but took the first corner too easy and blew it.

Yep, Malaysia was the one that got away for Mark.

Roamy

5th April 2010, 14:58

Good stuff here: Mark need to wake up and step on the gas and I am sure he will from this point on. Mark realized that the cars were too equal for him to make a pass and he probably knew the wheel nut man was on vettels payroll.

Should be fun to watch the next race.

chuck34

5th April 2010, 15:25

As others have said, I think the reason he was disapointed was more because he could have beaten Vettel, than simply being beaten by him. I think he knows he botched the start a bit. Then his crew botched his stop a bit when the nut or gun or whatever jammed up on his right front. That costed him just enough to not get out ahead of Vettel. Had he gotten out ahead of his team mate I think Webber wins the race. Just my 2 cents worth.

billiaml

5th April 2010, 15:43

Yeah, I noticed that he wasn't happy. It'll be interesting to see how things develop as the season progresses.

airshifter

5th April 2010, 16:22

I'm intrigued and looking for a juicy discussion. Any others fell something not quite right?

Mark was crap again in the race. Juicy enough? :laugh:

To be serious, I think he knew that leaving the door open that one time might have cost him a race win. I hope there wasn't any agreement with the team and it was just a matter of Vettel getting past him.

TBH I'm starting to see Webber much like Coulthard was. A very good driver and deserving to be on the grid, but really too inconsistent to be in the car he is in. Both have a history of "almosts" and "could haves" and not really a history of making it happen as much.

fandango

5th April 2010, 17:34

I'm not saying they should be jumping up and down with joy just for being there, but I've always thought Webber carries a bit of a sour look all the time. He didn't seem too happy about getting pole on Saturday, most drivers are ecstatic, and I'd say I agree with Ent, that after the race he knew he should have won.

Both RBR drivers strike me as prone to little mistakes, mistakes that they shouldn't make, and I'd be more inclined to expect tension between them during the season to build up rather than in other teams.

Valve Bounce

5th April 2010, 23:08

All good points. Not a good poker player. Vettel was very happy on the podium, and I felt Mark could have masked his feelings better and shared the joy of getting a one/two for Red Bull; there is always the next race to make amends. All that talk about not knowing where Nico or Vettel was simply showed his hand, where he stuffed up.

CNR

5th April 2010, 23:53

http://www.crash.net/f1/News/158460/1/webber_we_blew_everyone_away__without_even_pushing .html

Whilst wheelspin when the starting lights went out allowed Vettel to out-drag him off the grid, and a subsequent wheel gun delay at his pit-stop put paid to any hopes he might have had of leapfrogging the German into the lead – 'a little bit of salt in the wounds', he admitted – Webber was full of praise for his team for what was by any measure a consummate success. It was, moreover, one for which he acknowledged the drivers didn't need to overly stretch either themselves or their equipment, even if the pair did trade fastest lap times in the run-up to the stops.

CNR

5th April 2010, 23:58

Maybe he was unhappy because Vettel won and he didn't?

Juicy, I know. :p :
http://www.crash.net/f1/News/158460/1/webber_we_blew_everyone_away__without_even_pushing .html

Obviously if I stopped first there was a big chance I could jump Sebastian, but that would not have been fair for the guy who was leading. It was really down to the start and who had track position in the first stint.

Rollo

6th April 2010, 00:07

This morning's Courier Mail has an article written by none other than... Mark Webber.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/motor-sport/wheelspin-costs-mark-webber-malaysian-grand-prix-to-sebastian-vettel/story-e6frepn6-1225849959242
A ONE-TWO finish in the Malaysian Grand Prix was a great result for Red Bull Racing, even if second place was a slightly frustrating outcome for me. My RB6 was completely hooked up all weekend and after taking a dominant pole position on Saturday, I was focused on victory in the race.

In the end, I lost the race in the opening 500 metres. I got a little bit too much wheelspin away from the line, which allowed my teammate Sebastian Vettel to gain on me from third on the grid.
I immediately moved to the inside to defend my position, but as we approached the braking area for Turn 1, I edged towards the centre of the racetrack to defend my position from Nico Rosberg and that's when Seb took advantage.
We both braked incredibly late, but Seb dived down my inner. We passed through Turn 1 side by side, but he came out ahead and that was pretty much it.
I got a run on him towards Turn 4, but I didn't have enough momentum to make a clean pass, so I backed off because I didn't want to risk an accident.

In answer to this question:

or was there some instruction from Horner to take it easy and not take each other out?

It's also much harder to race your teammate than someone from another team because the last thing you want to do is have an accident that takes out both of your cars.

The bottom line is that Vettel got a better run off the line, and both drivers are smart enough not to take each other out. I don't see anything sinister about this at all. It looks more like Webber was being sensible.

Mark in Oshawa

6th April 2010, 01:22

Saint Devote

6th April 2010, 01:24

I believe Webber in that he did not push the matter on track. We have all seen him deal with other drivers and Alonso is fully aware of that.

Anyone expecting him to go "weak in the head" did not watch the German Grand Prix in 2009 and in my experience, Aussies in F1 are not people that shrink back from mixing it on track or off.

At worst, put this down to error and expect Webber to go all out from here on. It is his teammate but unless he is in a situation where Jenson vs Lewis yesterday was slower due to tyre wear, I think Webber is going to change his tactic.

And I hope he does. Drivers like Webber and Button are good for F1 because they are more like rugby players than the average weakling looking F1 driver.

Valve Bounce

6th April 2010, 02:55

The bottom line is that Vettel got a better run off the line, and both drivers are smart enough not to take each other out. I don't see anything sinister about this at all. It looks more like Webber was being sensible.

That was my take. Had mark defended his position against Vettel rather than move to the centre of the track, he would have lead after turn 1 and possibly have lead until the power gun jammed on his wheel nut.

I don't think his performance was as bad as many here seem to suggest, because either could have won the race. Maybe next time they will use some WD40 on that power gun before the wheel change.

Valve Bounce

6th April 2010, 02:57

Webber lacks the killer instinct. Not that he may not develop it, or maybe win the championship through smarter race tactics and keeping the car together. At this point, I doubt it if Vettel keeps his car on the track most races. Webber is good..not great.

Maybe he realised that exercising his killer instinct (as he has done before) against his team mate may not have been the smartest thing. The team did score maximum points.

ST205GT4

6th April 2010, 08:22

I wonder if what we saw this weekend is the difference in perception of risk between a young firestarter and the older Webber?

Webber mentioned in the post race interview that Horner had cautioned them not to take each other out. Did Webber think he'd arrived at the first corner in the lead and that therefore Vettel wouldn't dive in under brakes and potentially put them both at risk? I think Webber got hi-jacked by his own naivety.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out for the remainder of the year.

If Webber seriously thinks he has a shot at the WDC, then he needs to think more about himself and less about the team. And if that means a bit of biffo with his team mate, then so be it. How many "team players" have won the WDC in the modern era? I struggle to think of one....

ArrowsFA1

6th April 2010, 08:31

Did Webber think he'd arrived at the first corner in the lead and that therefore Vettel wouldn't dive in under brakes and potentially put them both at risk? I think Webber got hi-jacked by his own naivety.
Prost v Senna all over again. San Marino 1989.

RJL25

6th April 2010, 08:42

I too saw the body language and initially thought he may have been pissed off about some kind of first corner arrangment but when you think about it they couldn't have a first corner arrangment because at the first corner you are also fighting other cars, you can't fend off other cars whilst still maintaining formation, not gonna happen. I believe RBR have always allowed their drivers to race.

I believe it was just a case of a bloody hot race, he was physically spent combined with being dissapointed in the fact that he could have won but didn't, simple as that

Storm

6th April 2010, 11:24

I'm intrigued and looking for a juicy discussion. Any others fell something not quite right?

Vettel is better than Webber. Thats what is not right eh? ;)

Rollo

6th April 2010, 12:10

If Webber seriously thinks he has a shot at the WDC, then he needs to think more about himself and less about the team. And if that means a bit of biffo with his team mate, then so be it.

Maybe, but scoring points for coming second is far more valuable than binning both cars and scoring none.

How many world champions have there been through consistent driving?

ST205GT4

6th April 2010, 13:00

Plenty.

Not many that consistently treated their team-mates with a softly softly approach though.

jens

6th April 2010, 14:45

Webber underperformed significantly in the first two races, so I personally think he should be satisfied with the result and use it as a confidence builder for the rest of the season. He looked cautious at the start, but maybe it was due to the crash he had had in Australia and just wanted to play it safe this time. Well, at least he has got one proper result from the season by now.

Mark in Oshawa

6th April 2010, 23:18

Maybe he realised that exercising his killer instinct (as he has done before) against his team mate may not have been the smartest thing. The team did score maximum points.

Killer instinct in terms of making sure Vettel cant get up past him. Making sure no one has his line going into the corner. Webber has always struck me as a great driver, but he is polite out there to an extent. Either that, or he is put in situations where he has had to give way...

EuroTroll

7th April 2010, 09:11

To me, Webber has always seemed like a slow race driver. I mean, slow in the head. Can't process all the information that comes his way in a race quite as fast as, say, Hamilton. I think that's why he makes so many mistakes, and why in previous years he's been quite the dirty chopper. Information overload!

In qualifying, with far less information to process, he's always been brilliant.

Valve Bounce

7th April 2010, 10:27

EuroTroll

7th April 2010, 10:35

Can you name a single moment during the Malaysian GP where Webber displayed any of the attributes that you have so kindly assigned to him?

The start.

Don't get upset now. I'm not bashing the man. When I say his "computer" is slow I obviously mean compared to the very best drivers.

Valve Bounce

7th April 2010, 12:10

The start.

Don't get upset now. I'm not bashing the man. When I say his "computer" is slow I obviously mean compared to the very best drivers.

The guy got wheelspin. So he was slow off the mark. But that doesn't qualify for any of your attributes. Try harder.

ShiftingGears

7th April 2010, 12:21

He should've pitted earlier than Vettel to give himself a better chance to steal victory, but then maybe he would've been baulked. Maybe not. In any case, the one that got away. Next time he needs to take better advantage of being faster than Vettel.

EuroTroll

7th April 2010, 13:27

The guy got wheelspin. So he was slow off the mark. But that doesn't qualify for any of your attributes. Try harder.

Ah, so he had no chance in the first corner then? Then what's all this talk of a possible deal-braking or lack of killer instinct?

I'm saying it's not a matter of killer instinct. You don't need to kill anyone in F1. What you need to do is come up with good solutions in very complicated and fast-changing situations. This is where Webber has always lacked. He has always qualified better than he's raced, and most probably always will.

I think this start qualifies as an example. Not to mention the two silly mistakes on home soil..

markabilly

7th April 2010, 13:37

In motor racing, only one thing really matters: beating your team mate.

Ma.

No! Only one thing matters in Motor Racing. Beat Everyone :D

beating everyone is best. :D Getting beat by a team mate is the worst. :(

Ent

7th April 2010, 14:29

He should've pitted earlier than Vettel to give himself a better chance to steal victory...

The team wouldn't have let him. There is a distinct advantage in pitting first, and the team will always bring in the front driver first when on the same strategy, otherwise it would be showing favouritism to the driver behind.

It was for this reason that Webber was not happy when he got his first ever podium, a 3rd in Monaco in the Williams. Never seen a driver so angry at getting his first podium. He was in front of Heidfeld all the way and when the two Williams got stuck behind a slow Alonso, the team pulled Heidfeld in first in the final stop, gifting him Webber's second place.

markabilly

7th April 2010, 15:24

The team wouldn't have let him. There is a distinct advantage in pitting first, and the team will always bring in the front driver first when on the same strategy, otherwise it would be showing favouritism to the driver behind.

It was for this reason that Webber was not happy when he got his first ever podium, a 3rd in Monaco in the Williams. Never seen a driver so angry at getting his first podium. He was in front of Heidfeld all the way and when the two Williams got stuck behind a slow Alonso, the team pulled Heidfeld in first in the final stop, gifting him Webber's second place.
The advantage depends on track position and traffic. Sometimes and far more often the advantage belongs to he who pits second in the days of fueling during pitstops. webber lost out because of a slow Freddie, not because of the stop per se.

Now, I am not so sure.

wedge

8th April 2010, 15:40

The team wouldn't have let him. There is a distinct advantage in pitting first, and the team will always bring in the front driver first when on the same strategy, otherwise it would be showing favouritism to the driver behind.

It was for this reason that Webber was not happy when he got his first ever podium, a 3rd in Monaco in the Williams. Never seen a driver so angry at getting his first podium. He was in front of Heidfeld all the way and when the two Williams got stuck behind a slow Alonso, the team pulled Heidfeld in first in the final stop, gifting him Webber's second place.

Brawn was happy to let his drivers race last year.

It seems like this is RBR protocol and Webbo is too nice to be a b*****d (as Senna once referred to himself to Mansell).

If Webbo is ever to become WDC then he needs to grow balls in the garage, become a selfish SOB and tell Horner to do away with protocol. Let the drivers race by seeing who blinks first.