Time for a fine for bringing the sport into dispute?

[janneppi]

Seeing as in F1 you can slab a team with a 100 million fine for "bringing the sport into dispute", maybe it should be done here too?
I'll say 10Million Euros for both Ford and Citroen, maybe even FIA themselves should pay up for creating stupid rules. Where's Max Mosley's shovel when you need it.
Event like this is a sad joke.

[AndyRAC]

Possibly, but no rules were broken. A €10M fine would probably make them walk away.
However, surely common sense will prevail and something will be done. The teams/FiA need to look at the 'bigger picture'. The sport is being made to look extremely foolish. I hope the 'Qualifying' idea is brought in.

[Langdale Forest]

A penalty should be a punishment for breaking the rules, and not a way of messing about with road postioning, so if a driver is deemed to get a early/late penalty delibratley, they should be disqualified from the rally.

[BDunnell]

To be honest, I don't see quite what all the fuss is about. Yes, it's unedifying, but drivers have been dropping back — if not deliberately incurring penalties — to get better road position since I've been watching the sport in the early 1980s, and surely for longer than that.

[bowler]

To be honest, I don't see quite what all the fuss is about. Yes, it's unedifying, but drivers have been dropping back — if not deliberately incurring penalties — to get better road position since I've been watching the sport in the early 1980s, and surely for longer than that.

agree 100%.

move on.

tactics start when there are two or more competitors

[TMorel]

Do I have a problem with the concept of tactics? Nope
Do I think either team are the big bad evil for pulling them? Nope
Do I think that we have a problem with the rules that needs to be addressed? Yes
Will any changes remove totally the need for tactics? No

I hope (and am confident that it'll happen) that Todt will sit down with the drivers and teams and listen to their suggestions even if it means that this season they try a couple of different ideas every few events.

Rallying doesnt get much media coverage and it doesnt help the sport if what little there is, is taken up with discussing the rights and wrongs of tactics instead of talking about Ogier and Solbergs pace.

[BDunnell]

Seriously, on this subject, am I missing something that I ought to be very concerned about as a rallying enthusiast?

[janneppi]

Possibly, but no rules were broken.
That's the beauty of the fine, it can, and has been given when no rules are broken, all that matters if some makes the sport look ridiculous. ;)

[BDunnell]

That's the beauty of the fine, it can, and has been given when no rules are broken, all that matters if some makes the sport look ridiculous. ;)

But, as I said, this is a tactic that's been in use for ages. And it's not as if anybody notices the alleged bringing-into-disrepute of rallying by such tactics — this is rallying we're talking about, after all.

[janneppi]

But, as I said, this is a tactic that's been in use for ages. And it's not as if anybody notices the alleged bringing-into-disrepute of rallying by such tactics — this is rallying we're talking about, after all.
And FIA it should have put a stop to it ages ago, IMO it seriously diminishes the sporting aspect of the series, this is rallying we a talking about, after all.

Especially now, when there are in effect two drivers fighting for the WDC. If teams are allowed to behave this way, why even bother with first two days. Why not have three guys per team cleaning the roads leaving Loeb and Hirvonen to poodle along 50% speeds for two days, then come last day, you have six cars in front of them sweeping the road driving just fast enough not to interfiere.
I know that's taking it too far, but there isn't anything in the rules preventing that either.

[AndyRAC]

We all know it has gone on; team tactics/orders - San Remo '86 left a foul taste in my mouth. However, there was something about this weekend that really was just Wrong!! Using a SupeRallyer who was miles behind seemed beyond the limit. As long as it's legal, and that we only have 2 Manufacturers, it will carry on.
My other problem is 'punishing' the leader by running first on the road. Why? Just so he doesn't run away from everyone, and keeps on winning? Tough. If someone is the best - so what? Stop trying to equalise everyone.

[Simmi]

Jean Todt should have walked through the door to FIA headquarters on his first day. Sat down at his desk with a cup of tea, opened the WRC file and changed this rule to how it was all of 3 years ago.

It would literally be the first thing I did.

Tactics are ingrained in the DNA of motorsport but this just detracts from the spectacle to the point that it becomes confusing and a mockery. The change would cost nothing and could be implemented at a moments notice.

[bluuford]

We all know it has gone on; team tactics/orders - San Remo '86 left a foul taste in my mouth. However, there was something about this weekend that really was just Wrong!! Using a SupeRallyer who was miles behind seemed beyond the limit. As long as it's legal, and that we only have 2 Manufacturers, it will carry on.
My other problem is 'punishing' the leader by running first on the road. Why? Just so he doesn't run away from everyone, and keeps on winning? Tough. If someone is the best - so what? Stop trying to equalise everyone.

You know, favoring best drivers even more is also very wrong thing to do.
So I am again propagating my last idea. Every day drivers start according to their championship position. And additional change. When you arrive early to TC you get the penalty but you are not allowed to leave before your target time. Then only tactics we can see might be the tactics that driver nr 1 thinks that he is brave enough and take 30 sek penalty to fell behind his rival and hope to make that 30 sek back in one day (because every next day you are in front again). Then we can see multiple winners, very tight championship table and a lot of flatout rallying three days in a row. I would be happy :-)

[tmx]

Yes, impose massive fines, the trademark of the FIA, that would solve the problem, as McLaren has in proved Melbourne 2009.

Loeb already mentioned two ideas, that is the qualifying shakedown and early arriver to stage has to still wait for the preset starting position.

I'd like to see what happen in NZ. Haven't hear anything from the FIA yet, maybe they enjoy it.

[BDunnell]

OK, I can understand why people are irritated by this. However, reading this and other threads, I still can't see why this issue of starting order (leaving aside other team order issues) has become a bigger problem than ever before. Can anyone enlighten me?

[Daniel]

I think it's a problem because there's such a lack of competition.

[Tomi]

maybe and rallies has become shorter, the endurance factor is about gone, tyre rule, many things together effects to why its more difficult to win from the front.

[Barreis]

Possibly, but no rules were broken. A €10M fine would probably make them walk away.
However, surely common sense will prevail and something will be done. The teams/FiA need to look at the 'bigger picture'. The sport is being made to look extremely foolish. I hope the 'Qualifying' idea is brought in.

Hyundai walked away after 1 000 000 $ fine in 2003..

[AndyRAC]

I think it's a problem because there's such a lack of competition.

Yeah, if there were 15-20 factory seats (well, one can dream) it might not be as bad. However, with only 2 Manufacturers, the Privateer/semi-Works teams get involved. And a SupeRallyer who is about 15-20 minutes behind.
On last week's Total Rally show, George Donaldson was interviewed - and he didn't see any problem with the issue. Fair enough - however, those in the sport need to look at the 'bigger picture'. It looks amateurish/un-professional - and not he best way to attract new Manufacturers/sponsors, etc to the sport.

[AndyRAC]

Hyundai walked away after 1 000 000 $ fine in 2003..

I think they'd already pulled out through lack of money - and a disagreement between MSD/Hyundai.....

.....which resulted in the fine.

[bowler]

I think they'd already pulled out through lack of money - and a disagreement between MSD/Hyundai.....

.....which resulted in the fine.

I agree

[Langdale Forest]

Surley the actions of the last 2 WRC rallies in Australia and France have taken the sport into disrepute?

Latvala should have won in Australia but Malcolm Wilson made Hirvonen win, a move which took him a step closer to being a 'paper champion' after takeing a 'paper win'.

Then today Malcolm Wilson made JML take out a 2 minuete penaly for being early, penanlties are for people who break the rules, and Malcolm Wilson effectively 'forced' JML to break the rules.

All of this is giving Mikko Hirvonen a better advantage of the championship win, the point of the championship is that the fastest driver wins, so if a driver with the more points in a team is slower than the 2nd driver, it should stay that way.

[AndyRAC]

Team orders are still legal, so while what happened wasn't perfect, it was perfectly acceptable.
All teams have used them down the years; Lancia, Citroen, Subaru, Mitsubishi, etc

While I like Mikko, who is a good driver, but not a No1 - I hope either of the Sebs win the WRC....they've actually gone out to win events.

[bluuford]

Surley the actions of the last 2 WRC rallies in Australia and France have taken the sport into disrepute?

Latvala should have won in Australia but Malcolm Wilson made Hirvonen win, a move which took him a step closer to being a 'paper champion' after takeing a 'paper win'.

Then today Malcolm Wilson made JML take out a 2 minuete penaly for being early, penanlties are for people who break the rules, and Malcolm Wilson effectively 'forced' JML to break the rules.

All of this is giving Mikko Hirvonen a better advantage of the championship win, the point of the championship is that the fastest driver wins, so if a driver with the more points in a team is slower than the 2nd driver, it should stay that way.

I think that taking those road penalties is much more reasonable choice than hanging around the stage a few tens of minutes or so..

[BDunnell]

Team orders are still legal, so while what happened wasn't perfect, it was perfectly acceptable.

I couldn't agree more. Also, rules banning team orders are always impossible to implement.

[Mintexmemory]

I couldn't agree more. Also, rules banning team orders are always impossible to implement. A way to minimise the effect of team orders is to award a proportion of the championship points on any event for each stage won. This would have minimised the benefit to any driver who is 'allowed' a win on the final day / stage. I haven't thought through the ramifications, but if, as our Hellenic friend pointed out, Ogier was sandbagging Sordo then he would have been giving up points by not trying to win every stage he could.

[BDunnell]

A way to minimise the effect of team orders is to award a proportion of the championship points on any event for each stage won. This would have minimised the benefit to any driver who is 'allowed' a win on the final day / stage. I haven't thought through the ramifications, but if, as our Hellenic friend pointed out, Ogier was sandbagging Sordo then he would have been giving up points by not trying to win every stage he could.

The main ramification of such an idea, as far as I'm concerned, is to over-complicate matters.

[Mintexmemory]

True, but it would act against unworthy wins

[dumb]

Oportunity to win without taking first place in every stage (or maybe in any stage at all, remember Gronholm victory in Cyprus 2002) is a part of the sport. Trying to minimize effect of team orders in that way would take out one of the key factors of rallying - importance of surviving.

[N.O.T]

Stage wins

Loeb 55
Latvala 51
Ogier 49
Hirvonen 32 (13 of those around 10kms from his house)

paper champ is an understatement.

[dumb]

Well, rallying is not only about winning stages.

[N.O.T]

of course is not but still the reason we like it is speed...not cruising.

Hirvonen will deserve the title if he gets it since he hasn't done anything illegal... but i doubt in the future when we talk about rally champions we will include his name in it. Burns for example i think was remembered more about his 1999 and 2000 season rather than his 1 win title in 2001.

As i said...there is no way for Hirvonen to win the title this year with his attitude...the only way he does that is if he collects it from the garbage.

[Co-driven]

I'd say that if Hirvonen wins the 2011 championship, it would be more a matter of the others losing it than he winning it.

[dumb]

You can not too much cruise in rally. Someone faster will simply beat you :) Ofcourse it is a theoretical oportunity that all crews can go on 50 km/h and wait untill someone crashes out, but in this game the speed is required naturally. Without any rules.

[tfp]

Oportunity to win without taking first place in every stage (or maybe in any stage at all, remember Gronholm victory in Cyprus 2002) is a part of the sport. Trying to minimize effect of team orders in that way would take out one of the key factors of rallying - importance of surviving.

Or JML last year in new zealand?


You can not too much cruise in rally. Someone faster will simply beat you :) Ofcourse it is a theoretical oportunity that all crews can go on 50 km/h and wait untill someone crashes out, but in this game the speed is required naturally. Without any rules.

That brings us back to the similarities of the 2007(?) F1 season. Just like Alonso/Hamilton, (the two sebs :) ) I think Ogier would prefer raikkonen(Mikko :) ) to win rather the championship rather than his team mate (If you get what I mean:cool :)

[dumb]

That brings us back to the similarities of the 2007(?) F1 season. Just like Alonso/Hamilton, (the two sebs :) ) I think Ogier would prefer raikkonen(Mikko :) ) to win rather the championship rather than his team mate (If you get what I mean:cool :)

Interesting idea :) Maybe. But I say that he is Citroen driver at least for the next two WRC rallies.