Ford Fiesta RS WRC

[Allyc85]

Look what Mikko is doing at about 2':28" :eek: :eek: :eek:

Oooooh yea :D

[Bobcat]

looks a lot faster in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSJ4ofHtfcg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogdk1pgGXOU

[N.O.T]

the pace is not there yet i think compared to the ds3....

of course the difference in how a car looks and how the times go may vary....

[Daniel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogdk1pgGXOU
How much do M-Sport pay you for this? Because however much they're paying you, perhaps they should spend it on making a decent rallycar rather than being 2nd best to Citroen. They might win something next time :laugh:

I see your point but Malcolm was a very decent driver...far more so than Matthew. Not a world beater but fast.

Agreed,
remember in the beginning of the kid's driving when the wilson clan was declaring he would do rally with the goal to become champion ? First in 3 years, then 5... what next ? ten years maybe ?

The secret wish of malcolm is for the kid to win, or at least it was. Then reality kicked in probably already 2 or 3 years ago. Since then it is just DENIAL.

This is how it goes in their heads :

The kid starts a rally all pumped up, thinking now it will go, then after the first stage reality kicks in. He then struggles to keep up all the way until the last stage, when nobody takes risk anymore, then suddenly the kid, who doesn't need to lift in that last stage suddenly finds himself only 1 sec/km slower than Loeb instead of the usual 2 or 3 sec/km.
he then goes home and thinks that for sure now he found the pace and all will be better. etc.. etc.. etc.. etc..

It sounds really stupid but that is the only way for him to find motivation to continue.

[Barreis]

Still remember GB rally 1993 on ScreenSport when comentator said: And Malcolm Wilson wins the stage in his Micheline Pilot Ford Escort from his own workshop..

[ste898]

Everyone calls Matt Wilson useless but he is a top class driver compared too Al Qassimi, he is truely totally useless!!!!!

[Daniel]

Everyone calls Matt Wilson useless but he is a top class driver compared too Al Qassimi, he is truely totally useless!!!!!
Quite right. Still doesn't make Matty any less craptastic!

Just wish Malcolm would focus on getting a decent car out there rather than backing his son with millions and paying shills to post on forums.

[Mirek]

Everyone calls Matt Wilson useless but he is a top class driver compared too Al Qassimi, he is truely totally useless!!!!!


Would M-Sport still be in WRC without Abu Dhabi money? Let the sheikh have fun, it's win-win situation for everybody.

[Bobcat]

How much do M-Sport pay you for this? Because however much they're paying you, perhaps they should spend it on making a decent rallycar rather than being 2nd best to Citroen. They might win something next time :laugh:

Quite right. Still doesn't make Matty any less craptastic!

Just wish Malcolm would focus on getting a decent car out there rather than backing his son with millions and paying shills to post on forums.
Yeah, Peugeot-Citroen's fans seems to be worried that it can beat frankly Citroens next year. ;)

[Red bull]

you just brought the english language to a whole new level.....

are you serious son ?
Am really sorry sir but i come from some part of the dark continent(afrika)so english is my third language,once again am sorry if i offended you,thanks in advance. :o

[Daniel]

Yeah, Peugeot-Citroen's fans seems to be worried that it can beat frankly Citroens next year. ;)

:rotflmao:

Only twice during the PSA era (2000 onwards) have Ford won the manufacturers title and no drivers titles. So out of a possible 22 titles since 2000 PSA have taken 18.

The track record says that Bobshill is going to be wrong :laugh:

The new WRC cars and the fact that the active center diff will be out will change things for next season.

Basically the cars are going to be more difficult to drive without that active center diff. The tendency will be quite strong with understeer, and drivers will need to use aggressive driving style to turn in corners. I think this may be good for nordic drivers who are very familiar with this way of driving.

Just going around a tight hairpin with handbrake is going to be interesting since there is no more active center diff to disconnect rear drive when handbrake is pulled, allowing car to turn on a dime... not anymore in future!

By looking at latest Hirvonen test with FIESTA in portugal one can see the understeer going in and oversteer going out of corner. The slippery muddy conditions are quite nice indeed because it emphasizes the negative or positive sides of the general car balance. In this test you can see in medium speed long corners that he has to overcome some understeer going in, resulting in too much oversteer going out of corner once the car's lateral momentum is in action. Which means he won't have optimal corner exit speed and car will not be straight enough for maximum traction on acceleration. If this car balance is not right, Hirvonen will be forced to throw the car very agressively into corners; which wont be so much trouble in fast stages, but in twisty areas he will be in trouble and lose tenths in every corner. If he loses a tenth of second out each of 10 corners on one kilometer you can do th math !! Things will depend a lot on grip level and twistiness of stages, but I suspect Citroen is already working on finding specific car setups for all different types of roads, so they can have a specific setup with best compromise for each rally, this thanks to their philosophy of starting to develop the car very early with their top drivers. As Hirvonen has only now tested the car for first time, Ford have a lot of work ahead of them in the next 3 months before first rally. Too bad it is now soon winter and finding right conditions will be difficult for the first gravel rallies of next season. I guess they should have thought of that earlier.
This also means that tires will wear quite a lot more next year. Some long stages on hard gravel in hot conditions will be very very difficult on tires. The team who can find best car balance will be able to use tires full potential better.

... ;)

[Doon]

:rotflmao:

Only twice during the PSA era (2000 onwards) have Ford won the manufacturers title and no drivers titles. So out of a possible 22 titles since 2000 PSA have taken 18.

The track record says that Bobshill is going to be wrong :laugh:

16; Subaru have won two drivers titles

[Daniel]

There have been 11 seasons so 22 titles -4 = 18

[modri dirkac]

The new WRC cars and the fact that the active center diff will be out will change things for next season.

Basically the cars are going to be more difficult to drive without that active center diff. The tendency will be quite strong with understeer, and drivers will need to use aggressive driving style to turn in corners. I think this may be good for nordic drivers who are very familiar with this way of driving.

Just going around a tight hairpin with handbrake is going to be interesting since there is no more active center diff to disconnect rear drive when handbrake is pulled, allowing car to turn on a dime... not anymore in future!

By looking at latest Hirvonen test with FIESTA in portugal one can see the understeer going in and oversteer going out of corner. The slippery muddy conditions are quite nice indeed because it emphasizes the negative or positive sides of the general car balance. In this test you can see in medium speed long corners that he has to overcome some understeer going in, resulting in too much oversteer going out of corner once the car's lateral momentum is in action. Which means he won't have optimal corner exit speed and car will not be straight enough for maximum traction on acceleration. If this car balance is not right, Hirvonen will be forced to throw the car very agressively into corners; which wont be so much trouble in fast stages, but in twisty areas he will be in trouble and lose tenths in every corner. If he loses a tenth of second out each of 10 corners on one kilometer you can do th math !! Things will depend a lot on grip level and twistiness of stages, but I suspect Citroen is already working on finding specific car setups for all different types of roads, so they can have a specific setup with best compromise for each rally, this thanks to their philosophy of starting to develop the car very early with their top drivers. As Hirvonen has only now tested the car for first time, Ford have a lot of work ahead of them in the next 3 months before first rally. Too bad it is now soon winter and finding right conditions will be difficult for the first gravel rallies of next season. I guess they should have thought of that earlier.
This also means that tires will wear quite a lot more next year. Some long stages on hard gravel in hot conditions will be very very difficult on tires. The team who can find best car balance will be able to use tires full potential better.

... ;)

Kaffi, you are wrong. There still be some kind of disconnection of the rear wheeels when handbrake is pulled, but - as you mentioned - with no active centre diff. ;)

Ok thanks for that. Does someone know how this happens ? As far as I understand they are not allowed any "active" system in the car, so this device can only be mechanically activated from handbrake mechanism when the driver pulls it, which implicates some kind of clutch plate system ?

...?

[MJW]

The team who can find best car balance will be able to use tires full potential better.

... ;)
And I bet that will be Citroen!!!

[JRodrigues]

Ok thanks for that. Does someone know how this happens ? As far as I understand they are not allowed any "active" system in the car, so this device can only be mechanically activated from handbrake mechanism when the driver pulls it, which implicates some kind of clutch plate system ?

...?

Yup. Citroën engineer has said that:
http://autosport.aeiou.pt/gen.pl?p=stories&op=view&fokey=as.stories/90601

by google translator:

The Citroen WRC DS3 viewed Xavier Mestelan-Pinon

The Citroen WRC DS3 born to be, first, a World Rally Car, and never a S2000 would later be converted into a WRC. According to Xavier Mestelan-Pinon, the project director, "the greatest challenge was the construction of the engine as we made an aluminum propeller to direct injection, whose crankshaft, for example, took six months to be drawn. With just a 1.6 liters to explore, we have less power and torque than half had at C4 and a range of minor use. The turbo boost pressure is limited to 2.6 bar and using the direct injection system has to be different from that used in cars series, due to the smaller flow of gas. " Regarding the coke, the DS3 is smaller, which means that "there is less space to mount the bow of security and increase the height of the center of gravity. But the car was extended up to 1820 mm regulations and stood weight below 1200 pounds regulations and then make a better weight distribution. In the broadcast we have a box six Sadev sequential relationships without paddles on the steering wheel. The delivery of torque to the axles, although smaller, is more violent, by we have had the axles of the C4 WRC, but we do not use central differential, which forced him to create a system that turns off the transmitter back when the handbrake is activated. Finally, we use the same suspension geometry of the C4, Citroen Racing to shocks with four types of pitches, "said the Frenchman.

[AMSS]

The new WRC cars and the fact that the active center diff will be out will change things for next season.

Basically the cars are going to be more difficult to drive without that active center diff. The tendency will be quite strong with understeer, and drivers will need to use aggressive driving style to turn in corners. I think this may be good for nordic drivers who are very familiar with this way of driving.

Just going around a tight hairpin with handbrake is going to be interesting since there is no more active center diff to disconnect rear drive when handbrake is pulled, allowing car to turn on a dime... not anymore in future!

By looking at latest Hirvonen test with FIESTA in portugal one can see the understeer going in and oversteer going out of corner. The slippery muddy conditions are quite nice indeed because it emphasizes the negative or positive sides of the general car balance. In this test you can see in medium speed long corners that he has to overcome some understeer going in, resulting in too much oversteer going out of corner once the car's lateral momentum is in action. Which means he won't have optimal corner exit speed and car will not be straight enough for maximum traction on acceleration. If this car balance is not right, Hirvonen will be forced to throw the car very agressively into corners; which wont be so much trouble in fast stages, but in twisty areas he will be in trouble and lose tenths in every corner. If he loses a tenth of second out each of 10 corners on one kilometer you can do th math !! Things will depend a lot on grip level and twistiness of stages, but I suspect Citroen is already working on finding specific car setups for all different types of roads, so they can have a specific setup with best compromise for each rally, this thanks to their philosophy of starting to develop the car very early with their top drivers. As Hirvonen has only now tested the car for first time, Ford have a lot of work ahead of them in the next 3 months before first rally. Too bad it is now soon winter and finding right conditions will be difficult for the first gravel rallies of next season. I guess they should have thought of that earlier.
This also means that tires will wear quite a lot more next year. Some long stages on hard gravel in hot conditions will be very very difficult on tires. The team who can find best car balance will be able to use tires full potential better.

... ;)
One thing that struck my eye is that the heavy oversteer and lots of weight movement to the rear wheels ,charasteristic to the Focus, seems to be a lot less on the Fiesta compared to the current Focus especially in the corner exits.
Also body roll seems to be less than on the DS3 which appears to run a very soft setting in the dampers.
All of these comparisons are of course useless at this stage but anyway interesting to look at different approaches to get speed.
But as usual as soon as rally Sweden is on its way will be at least a little wiser waht comes to who has done the best job.

[Mirek]

Ok thanks for that. Does someone know how this happens ? As far as I understand they are not allowed any "active" system in the car, so this device can only be mechanically activated from handbrake mechanism when the driver pulls it, which implicates some kind of clutch plate system ?

...?


It's same as in modern S2000 cars. Peugeot, Škoda, Ford, Proton and newer Abarths don't have center diff also. There is just a clutch in rear differential case which disconnects rear axle when You use handbrake. In my opinion the prediction of driving style is quite simple. New WRC cars will behave basically same as S2000 cars, just with stronger engine. I personally like S2000 appearance very much.

[GigiGalliNo1]

you just brought the english language to a whole new level.....

are you serious son ?

I think he's 15

thanks for that guys. Wasn't aware of it.

One thing that struck my eye is that the heavy oversteer and lots of weight movement to the rear wheels ,charasteristic to the Focus, seems to be a lot less on the Fiesta compared to the current Focus especially in the corner exits.
Also body roll seems to be less than on the DS3 which appears to run a very soft setting in the dampers.
All of these comparisons are of course useless at this stage but anyway interesting to look at different approaches to get speed.
But as usual as soon as rally Sweden is on its way will be at least a little wiser waht comes to who has done the best job.

I noticed that also. The DS3 seems to sit down a hell of a lot more than the FIESTA. I wonder if the DS3 has more suspension travel than FIESTA ?

And I bet that will be Citroen!!!

That's right, MJW, the return of the FRENCH CONNECTION

michelin-citroen-sebastien(s)
:D

[Mirek]

I noticed that also. The DS3 seems to sit down a hell of a lot more than the FIESTA. I wonder if the DS3 has more suspension travel than FIESTA ?

I think that it's impossible. DS3 have almost vertical dampers while Fiesta has them angled a lot which allows them to be much longer with same ground clearance.

I noticed in Citroën press release that they use 4-way adjustable dampers on DS3 WRC. Does anyone know if they use them also on C4? I guess it's something similar to Reiger fast rebound.

I think that it's impossible. DS3 have almost vertical dampers while Fiesta has them angled a lot which allows them to be much longer with same ground clearance.

I noticed in Citroën press release that they use 4-way adjustable dampers on DS3 WRC. Does anyone know if they use them also on C4? I guess it's something similar to Reiger fast rebound.

As far as I know there is high and low speed bump adjustment and same on rebound, a low speed and the fast rebound.

[dimviii]

As far as I know there is high and low speed bump adjustment and same on rebound, a low speed and the fast rebound.

+1

[Bobcat]

:rotflmao:

Only twice during the PSA era (2000 onwards) have Ford won the manufacturers title and no drivers titles. So out of a possible 22 titles since 2000 PSA have taken 18.

The track record says that Bobshill is going to be wrong :laugh:
Everything comes to an end eventually (fortunately), see PSA's IRC era.

[Daniel]

Everything comes to an end eventually (fortunately), see PSA's IRC era.
I very much doubt that MSport will be the ones to end PSA's reign of terriffic performances. Have you told your boss to spend his money more wisely?

I very much doubt that MSport will be the ones to end PSA's reign of terriffic performances. Have you told your boss to spend his money more wisely?

Highly doubt it as well. And as far as logic can tell, Citroën are in there for at least 3 more years with the DS3, because that is roughly the market life of this car. After that is unknown.

And as far as Malcolm who thought after Loeb retires maybe he can start going for the championship again, he can guess again cause now there is Ogier :D . Good thing it doesn't take him 5 years of driving a top car in World Championship financed by some billionaire cargo boat company manager before he can go for it.
Sorry for wilson but luckily greed doesn't always lead to success, it takes a little more than that like having a soul and giving chances to the real talented young drivers.

[Bobcat]

I very much doubt that MSport will be the ones to end PSA's reign of terriffic performances. Have you told your boss to spend his money more wisely?
You're dead right just like your PSA "100% sports" director. ;)

Now, for all the PSA-Matthew's fans: Fiesta potential cheers Matthew Wilson... http://www.wrc.com/news/fiesta-potential-cheers-matthew-wilson/?fid=13785

[Woodeye]

You're dead right just like your PSA "100% sports" director. ;)

Now, for all the PSA-Matthew's fans: Fiesta potential cheers Matthew Wilson... http://www.wrc.com/news/fiesta-potential-cheers-matthew-wilson/?fid=13785

Somehow Matt commenting a rally car is a bit like tractor pulling enthusiast commenting on the handling of F1 car.

[Daniel]

Somehow Matt commenting a rally car is a bit like tractor pulling enthusiast commenting on the handling of F1 car.

Rather.....

[AndyRAC]

Somehow Matt commenting a rally car is a bit like tractor pulling enthusiast commenting on the handling of F1 car.

Oooh, that's harsh....... :p :

[Bobcat]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs814.snc4/69418_149317418444652_106632069379854_241005_56592 12_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs405.ash2/68324_149317348444659_106632069379854_241003_66144 8_n.jpg

[Red bull]

I think he's 15
Cant comment more on that but i remember to have said sorry to N.O.T when he came up with the insue,so will you please excuse me......your highness...thank you in advance :confused:

From WRC is free:

Mikkio Hirvonen (http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/news/439-ford-drivers-excited-after-debut-test-in-all-new-ford-fiesta-rs-world-rally-car) : "La plus grosse différence entre la Fiesta RS WRC et le Focus RS WRC est le moteur. Il y a moins de couple avec le moteur 1,6L de la Fiesta qu'avec le 2L de la Focus, cela demande un style de pilotage différent. Le moteur a besoin de rester dans les tours. Une approche plus agressive est nécessaire, spéciale dans les virages lents, où le pilote doit prendre les commandes et attaquer plus dur, plutôt que de laisser la voiture travailler"

So after rough translation this confirms that they will have to drive with agressive driving style, especially in twisty. And you cannot let the car do the work like before.

Things will change. No more clean driving and letting active diffs turn the car. The engine is also making things more difficult.

Somehow Matt commenting a rally car is a bit like tractor pulling enthusiast commenting on the handling of F1 car.

Not really good for a manufacturer's brand image to put matt Wilson so much forward on the official WRC site as an official spokesperson on the future FIESTA WRC car. :confused:

I hope the Ford Europe execs are not reading the international press concerning matt wilson. I don't know how they talk about him in england but as far as the rest of the world is concerned the guy has no credit at all, anywhere. In fact he brings negative image.

What are thy going to do next ? A matt wilson special edition FIESTA ?? :D

If there is even the slightest attention on him in england, the only reason is that he is the ONLY brit in WRC. Thank God this will change next year when KRIS MEEKE will show him how to drive. :)

[Bobcat]

From WRC is free:

Mikkio Hirvonen (http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/news/439-ford-drivers-excited-after-debut-test-in-all-new-ford-fiesta-rs-world-rally-car) : "La plus grosse différence entre la Fiesta RS WRC et le Focus RS WRC est le moteur. Il y a moins de couple avec le moteur 1,6L de la Fiesta qu'avec le 2L de la Focus, cela demande un style de pilotage différent. Le moteur a besoin de rester dans les tours. Une approche plus agressive est nécessaire, spéciale dans les virages lents, où le pilote doit prendre les commandes et attaquer plus dur, plutôt que de laisser la voiture travailler"

So after rough translation this confirms that they will have to drive with agressive driving style, especially in twisty. And you cannot let the car do the work like before.

Things will change. No more clean driving and letting active diffs turn the car. The engine is also making things more difficult.
Ford thrilled with Fiesta test progress http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87497
Ford drivers excited after debut test in all-new Fiesta RS World Rally Car http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/news/439-ford-drivers-excited-after-debut-test-in-all-new-ford-fiesta-rs-world-rally-car

[ste898]

Well with Hirvoslow behind the wheel Ford have no chance

When is Wilson gonna wake up!!!!!!!!

[Juha_Koo]

Well with Hirvoslow behind the wheel Ford have no chance

When is Wilson gonna wake up!!!!!!!!

Don't worry, they have JML - World Rally Champion 2011. :)

[Daniel]

Well with Hirvoslow behind the wheel Ford have no chance

When is Wilson gonna wake up!!!!!!!!

Ah come on Ste! Listen to the Iraq... errr I mean M-Sport information minister, Ford will win everything forever now!

The stages will run red with the blood of Citroens! The Citroens came and attacked us! We were strong, the Citroens went home to their mums and cried, just as they have done for the last 10 years almost! and so on and so forth.

[Barreis]

Don't worry, they have JML - World Rally Champion 2011. :)

Hope not.. Payers don't deserve to be champs.. Just saw some old JWRC stuff with JML..

[Juha_Koo]

Hope not.. Payers don't deserve to be champs.. Just saw some old JWRC stuff with JML..

Oh wow... :D I find your post always very amusing... Full of BS usually riddled with inaccuraties and false presumptions...

So your saying that Seb Loeb doesn't deserve to be champion? He has really never paid anything by himself during his career. All of his early campaigns were funded by FFSA and more importantly by a steel entrepreneur mr. Jean-Pierre Champeau (who actually lost his son Mark in a recce accident back in 1999) and Citroen.

JML has never had and doesn't have any major companies nor a manufacturer behind him. Only his family and Timo Jouhki. I can guarantee that money needed to by a factory seat is never to be found in Finland. 100% sure.

[DonJippo]

Hope not.. Payers don't deserve to be champs..

As you seem to be the ones that know I wonder if you care to tell then how much is he paying?

[Daniel]

Hope not.. Payers don't deserve to be champs.. Just saw some old JWRC stuff with JML..
I agree with the others, as long as the paydriver is actually a decent driver then who cares.

Personally I don't rate JML as championship material but he's as worthy a driver as anyone else aside from the Seb's at the moment.....

[sollitt]

Hope not.. Payers don't deserve to be champs.. Just saw some old JWRC stuff with JML..

Whether or not JML actually pays anything , are you suggesting that a driver who pays doesn't deserve to win? Why on earth not? What a ridiculous statement!

[urabus-denoS2000]

From the WRC.com article

"Wilson’s final scheduled event in a Focus RS WRC is next month’s Wales Rally GB. Afterwards he hopes to secure the budget required to continue in the sport’s highest echelon from 2011."

Thanks wrc.com , this made my day :D :D :D

[Barreis]

That's my opinion.. Payers RUINED this sport.. Rich sons are driving these days.. And that's why I'm even more happy that Seb.Loeb who hadn't millions behind him is seven times champ.. I don't have anything against anybody but don't like to much patriotism and Finns are here on the top of the list.. Chill!

[Daniel]

Huh? Wtf? How is JML different to Loeb? They've both had backers.....

[Juha_Koo]

And that's why I'm even more happy that Seb.Loeb who hadn't millions behind him is seven times champ..

Please read my post...! Seb had millions behind him! Mr. Champeau and his friends funded (=PAID!) Seb's drivings until Citroen started to pay salary to him. Sometimes it feels that you don't read anything that others write...


I don't have anything against anybody but don't like to much patriotism and Finns are here on the top of the list.. Chill!

Oh c'mon! Why don't you answer to DonJippo's pretty straight-forward question? Because you're too busy making completely false accusations based on your own, distorted views which have no real life basis at all! This has nothing to with patriotism.

[noel157]

Ah come on Ste! Listen to the Iraq... errr I mean M-Sport information minister, Ford will win everything forever now!

The stages will run red with the blood of Citroens! The Citroens came and attacked us! We were strong, the Citroens went home to their mums and cried, just as they have done for the last 10 years almost! and so on and so forth.

Tariq Azzi school of grandiose presumptions.

[sollitt]

That's my opinion.. Payers RUINED this sport.. Rich sons are driving these days..

Any particular year spring to mind when "payers" ruined the sport. Non contracted drivers have been renting, or paying, for cars to contest the WRC since the WRC has existed.
Some have been sons of rich daddies, some have been rich daddies themselves, others just determined competitors who managed to put a deal together.
None have "ruined" the sport. All have added value.

[Barreis]

If you have brain, you all know what I'm talking about.. Seb.Loeb's father wasn't millioner and his son successed.. :)

[Daniel]

So everyone else is wrong and you're right.

[Daniel]

You do also realise that JML and Mathew Wilson are different people right?

[Barreis]

JML was here in Zagreb, Croatia few months ago and seems to be really pleasant bloke but I would rather see some JWRC champ as WRC champ then rich son who's when turned to 18 in WRC car in BRC or WRC.. Anyway stop this.. If you'll come to Zagreb, Croatia I invite you for a coffie and then we can have propper conversation (fight :D ), especially Finns.. :D :D :D

LOEB was supported by CHAMPEAU for rallies in the french championship, driving a citroen SAXO kit car. In 2001 for the rally du Var guy frequelin offered him his first salary to drive a rally in the XSARA kit car, about 30.000Euros. He won the rally and from that point on he was paid a salary.
LOEB was overall supported by sponsors for max 2 seasons in french champ. to run in a SAXO, about 400.000Euro per season. So it is nowhere to be compared with the sort of sums that JOUHKI has pumped to keep Hirvonen and Latvala alive in motorsport.

I don't care if somebody gets support, good for him afterall. The problem is that JOUHKI's tactics are unfair to others. He kills off other drivers, just as skilled or potentially better as his drivers, by using his endless supply of cash to forcefully and endlessly place HIS drivers in the OFFICIAL teams.

Ask Gronholm, Pykalisto, Tuohino, Paasonen how it was for them when they started without help from JOUHKI ??

If you are Wilson and you get 2 calls in November : one from JOUHKI and his 2.5mill Euros to take Hirvonen as n°2 factory driver or Pykalisto who is supported by Gronholm and DHL, with maybe 3 or 400.000 Euro, or nothing.
Who does Wilson take ?

And then what happens when Hirvonen crashes ? first time is ok, says Wilson...then 2nd time Wilson starts to make a face...3rd crash Wilson rings Jouhki and says who pays for my crashed cars ??

A guy like Pykalisto would not have this kind of insurance. After 2 crashes you are OUT. :(

When the second SUBARU seat was open for 2004 season, Jouhki knew that PRODRIVE was not so hot to take his Hirvonen, so what does he do ? :confused:
He flies, together with his driver TOMMI MAKINEN who had just been retired, over to the SUBARU HQ in JAPAN and convinces the JAPS to have PRODRIVE hire Hirvonen, seeing MAKINEN support the kid, they agree and apply the pressure.

Do you see Tuohino being able to do that ??

But this stunt backfired in Hirvonen's face because PRODRIVE was so unimpressed that he never got equal treatment with SOLBERG, and got the boot at the end of the year.

In 2005 JOUHKI rented JARI VIITA's car for Hirvonen. They chose a few rallies where they thought they could be really competitive. There was proper testing organised and god knows what else. Naturally, with very good starting positions on gravel rallies due to him not competing in the WRC, a very competitive car supported by M-Sport and some good experience he managed to pull off a performance. 6 rallies, 3 retirements, 2 times 5th and a 3rd place, including one factory drive in NESTE RALLY (5th).

Luckily for Hirvonen an official pay to drive seat opened at Ford in 2006 for the n°2 car. GRONHOLM was hired by Wilson for a fortune so JOUHKI's money was very welcome. At that moment Hirvonen's CV was not good enough to hope for a free drive, needless to say a salary. Afterall his best results was 3rd in Catalunya and 2 times fourth in the IMPREZA.

Hirvonen's first win came in Australia 2006, on his 52nd WRC event since GB 2002, driving a top WRC car, of which he retired 18 times for various reasons including multiple accidents. :eek:

Over the years KANKKUNEN, ROVANPERA, MAKINEN, MIKKOLA, GARDEMEISTER, LATVALA, HIRVONEN have all been supported by JOUHKI, and in some cases have only managed to survive thanks to his cash, to the detriment of some other poor blokes who should have had their chance too.

To give you an idea about JOUHKI's abilities, in 2003 season he managed

Gardemeister in factory SKODA
Rovanpera in factory PEUGEOT
Makinen in factory SUBARU
Hirvonen in semi-factory FORD
Latvala in semi-factory FORD.

[Francis44]

If what Kaffi wrote is true, then Hirvonen lost some of my respect as I thought he got his seat out off pure talent.

Hirvonen talented ? yes obviously but probably never would have made it without the manager.
He shortcircuited other drivers who had made it through the steps and were talented as well, took the place and maintained himself there with cash for as long as it took until reliability and speed came along years later.

[Macd]

McRae was lined up for the 2004 Subaru seat and in an interveiw at the time he said that he thought he had got the drive and so did DR. So clearly some money was passed around at that time..

[Josti]

Hirvonen was never suited for the 2nd Subaru seat with his cv at that time, so of course money had to be involved (but remember that Burns would've originally taken the seat had it not been for his ilness, and McRae as Macd said was also in contention, but even more money was involved in that only the other way around).

I do think Hirvonen did very good as a privateer in 2005, most prominent his 3rd place at Catalunya (where road position didn't matter at all). By then he was good enough to be a 2nd driver at Ford, but bar 2009, his role as the lead driver has never felt fulfilling enough imo. I have more faith in Jari-Matti anytime and, despite him being under Joukhi's control too, he has all the right to be in the place he is right now.

[AndyRAC]

Hirvonen was obviously worth more in terms of PR/Marketing than Mc Rae……. ;)

[Leon]

LOEB was supported by CHAMPEAU for rallies in the french championship, driving a citroen SAXO kit car. In 2001 for the rally du Var guy frequelin offered him his first salary to drive a rally in the XSARA kit car, about 30.000Euros. He won the rally and from that point on he was paid a salary.
LOEB was overall supported by sponsors for max 2 seasons in french champ. to run in a SAXO, about 400.000Euro per season. So it is nowhere to be compared with the sort of sums that JOUHKI has pumped to keep Hirvonen and Latvala alive in motorsport.

I don't care if somebody gets support, good for him afterall. The problem is that JOUHKI's tactics are unfair to others. He kills off other drivers, just as skilled or potentially better as his drivers, by using his endless supply of cash to forcefully and endlessly place HIS drivers in the OFFICIAL teams.

Ask Gronholm, Pykalisto, Tuohino, Paasonen how it was for them when they started without help from JOUHKI ??

If you are Wilson and you get 2 calls in November : one from JOUHKI and his 2.5mill Euros to take Hirvonen as n°2 factory driver or Pykalisto who is supported by Gronholm and DHL, with maybe 3 or 400.000 Euro, or nothing.
Who does Wilson take ?

And then what happens when Hirvonen crashes ? first time is ok, says Wilson...then 2nd time Wilson starts to make a face...3rd crash Wilson rings Jouhki and says who pays for my crashed cars ??

A guy like Pykalisto would not have this kind of insurance. After 2 crashes you are OUT. :(

When the second SUBARU seat was open for 2004 season, Jouhki knew that PRODRIVE was not so hot to take his Hirvonen, so what does he do ? :confused:
He flies, together with his driver TOMMI MAKINEN who had just been retired, over to the SUBARU HQ in JAPAN and convinces the JAPS to have PRODRIVE hire Hirvonen, seeing MAKINEN support the kid, they agree and apply the pressure.

Do you see Tuohino being able to do that ??

But this stunt backfired in Hirvonen's face because PRODRIVE was so unimpressed that he never got equal treatment with SOLBERG, and got the boot at the end of the year.

In 2005 JOUHKI rented JARI VIITA's car for Hirvonen. They chose a few rallies where they thought they could be really competitive. There was proper testing organised and god knows what else. Naturally, with very good starting positions on gravel rallies due to him not competing in the WRC, a very competitive car supported by M-Sport and some good experience he managed to pull off a performance. 6 rallies, 3 retirements, 2 times 5th and a 3rd place, including one factory drive in NESTE RALLY (5th).

Luckily for Hirvonen an official pay to drive seat opened at Ford in 2006 for the n°2 car. GRONHOLM was hired by Wilson for a fortune so JOUHKI's money was very welcome. At that moment Hirvonen's CV was not good enough to hope for a free drive, needless to say a salary. Afterall his best results was 3rd in Catalunya and 2 times fourth in the IMPREZA.

Hirvonen's first win came in Australia 2006, on his 52nd WRC event since GB 2002, driving a top WRC car, of which he retired 18 times for various reasons including multiple accidents. :eek:

Over the years KANKKUNEN, ROVANPERA, MAKINEN, MIKKOLA, GARDEMEISTER, LATVALA, HIRVONEN have all been supported by JOUHKI, and in some cases have only managed to survive thanks to his cash, to the detriment of some other poor blokes who should have had their chance too.

To give you an idea about JOUHKI's abilities, in 2003 season he managed

Gardemeister in factory SKODA
Rovanpera in factory PEUGEOT
Makinen in factory SUBARU
Hirvonen in semi-factory FORD
Latvala in semi-factory FORD.

I have a couple of questions.
where JOUHKI's money come from?
is he making a profit with his latest drivers JML and Hirvo or a loss?
why he is doing so?
who are the "failed" drivers he picked up and then regret (read an interview about this)
who is the british driver he was ready to promote and what happened then

Jouhki's money comes from shipping vessel company(cargo ships and stuff), and other companies. I believe his family is richest in Finland. He himself is apparently not caring so much about the family business, as he likes to play the driver's manager. He seems to have a brother taking care of the family business (not sure exactly).

I don't know really about his profits on driver's contracts. I have heard at the time that he gets back 40% of his drivers salaries once they start earning money.
At the moment he has probably started earning money back from his two latest drivers.

[MJW]

Picking up on what Kaffi said about the Hirvonen / McRae / Subaru thing, DR was forced into taking MH by Subaru Japan, and I think the whole Prodrive / Subaru Japan relationship unraveling can be traced around that time. Things got worse, and whispers about Subaru going with Tommi Makinen Racing all started after this. Dont underestimate Juokhi, his influences go back a long time, it was Timo Juohki's father who gave Hannu Mikkola a start, along long time ago.

[Leon]

Jouhki's money comes from shipping vessel company(cargo ships and stuff), and other companies. I believe his family is richest in Finland. He himself is apparently not caring so much about the family business, as he likes to play the driver's manager. He seems to have a brother taking care of the family business (not sure exactly).

I don't know really about his profits on driver's contracts. I have heard at the time that he gets back 40% of his drivers salaries once they start earning money.
At the moment he has probably started earning money back from his two latest drivers.

thank you

more about this:
who are the "failed" drivers he picked up and then regret (read an interview about this)
who is the british driver he was ready to promote and what happened then

[Frozzy]

that is completey unfair to brandish "Pay" drivers as worthless and damaging to the WRC. if it gets them on the international stage and they can provide a challenge to the established drivers like loeb then surely its a win win situation if there are more poeple challanging for the wins?

[Rallyper]

Don´t forget that CMR was a driver in his last years and MH was a rising star. I know.
Remember what happened to CMR in Citroen. Just crashes.

I do really like CMR and all he did. But at the time it was different.
That has to be considered.

[Juha_Koo]

Jouhki's money comes from shipping vessel company(cargo ships and stuff), and other companies. I believe his family is richest in Finland. He himself is apparently not caring so much about the family business, as he likes to play the driver's manager. He seems to have a brother taking care of the family business (not sure exactly).

I don't know really about his profits on driver's contracts. I have heard at the time that he gets back 40% of his drivers salaries once they start earning money.
At the moment he has probably started earning money back from his two latest drivers.

Actually a very very small amount of Jouhki's money comes from shipping industry... He has made his fortune by investing and by other means on financial market (trusts, major stock exhchange stuff etc.). Jouhki family has been involved in forest industry, real estate stuff, biomedicine industry, and all kinds of technology business. You're right about the scheme though - the main player in the family businesses is in fact his brother.

They are most definately not the richest family in Finland. They might just fit to TOP 20 nowdays... Back in 2006 the family had a net revenue of 57 million euros. For comparison the richest family in Finland, the Erkko media mogul family had a net revenue of around 3 billion euros..!

In 2008 Jouhki told in an in-depth interview that managering is just a hobby for him. He said that he couldn't do it without the wealth gotten from other sources. He has had some business schemes but he says that the results for him from the managering are pretty much + - 0 euros... For example he never took any money from Juha Kankkunen because of excellent sponsor (and car) deals which he negotiated.

You also didn't told the whole story regarding the Hirvonen/Subaru deal. Prodrive wanted McRae badly for their team (mainly because of his nationality - same with the team), but the Japanese directors back at Subaru weren't really happy - because he was a very expensive driver. So Jouhki and Tommi helped Hirvonen to Subaru. By appointing Hirvonen to the team Subaru guys saved a lot of $$ and everyone except Prodrive/Richards were happy. Hirvonen never got nearly any support from Prodrive and we all know the results...

Leon asked about British drivers that Jouhki had looked into. These were Wilks and Meeke. But they never passed Jouhki's rigorous mental tests which he conducts to his rally proteges and brokers with the help of one of the Finland's leading (sport/society)psychologist Seppo Heino.

Yes, Jouhki might be a very tough businessman - even harsh at times. But then again, motorsport, like any other sport, is run by MONEY. Money, money, money. You just can't escape the fact. Personally I admire mr. Jouhki very much. He has been one of Finland's key figures in the rallying scene for many decades now and I'm deeply grateful to him because he has invested sh*tloads of his own money to help young Finnish guys to climb to the top.

[serial jeff]

Motorsport has always been about money. Like it or not, it takes a lot of money to build and race these expensive machines.

Also, I have a hard time taking a post seriously when every other proper noun is written in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.

[dimviii]

Nice thread lads.
Very good unknown(for me) stories from backstages.
keep em going :)

Actually a very very small amount of Jouhki's money comes from shipping industry... He has made his fortune by investing and by other means on financial market (trusts, major stock exhchange stuff etc.). Jouhki family has been involved in forest industry, real estate stuff, biomedicine industry, and all kinds of technology business. You're right about the scheme though - the main player in the family businesses is in fact his brother.

They are most definately not the richest family in Finland. They might just fit to TOP 20 nowdays... Back in 2006 the family had a net revenue of 57 million euros. For comparison the richest family in Finland, the Erkko media mogul family had a net revenue of around 3 billion euros..!

In 2008 Jouhki told in an in-depth interview that managering is just a hobby for him. He said that he couldn't do it without the wealth gotten from other sources. He has had some business schemes but he says that the results for him from the managering are pretty much + - 0 euros... For example he never took any money from Juha Kankkunen because of excellent sponsor (and car) deals which he negotiated.

You also didn't told the whole story regarding the Hirvonen/Subaru deal. Prodrive wanted McRae badly for their team (mainly because of his nationality - same with the team), but the Japanese directors back at Subaru weren't really happy - because he was a very expensive driver. So Jouhki and Tommi helped Hirvonen to Subaru. By appointing Hirvonen to the team Subaru guys saved a lot of $$ and everyone except Prodrive/Richards were happy. Hirvonen never got nearly any support from Prodrive and we all know the results...

Leon asked about British drivers that Jouhki had looked into. These were Wilks and Meeke. But they never passed Jouhki's rigorous mental tests which he conducts to his rally proteges and brokers with the help of one of the Finland's leading (sport/society)psychologist Seppo Heino.

Yes, Jouhki might be a very tough businessman - even harsh at times. But then again, motorsport, like any other sport, is run by MONEY. Money, money, money. You just can't escape the fact. Personally I admire mr. Jouhki very much. He has been one of Finland's key figures in the rallying scene for many decades now and I'm deeply grateful to him because he has invested sh*tloads of his own money to help young Finnish guys to climb to the top.

Thanks for the corrections and additional info. very interesting stuff i didn't know. :)

[ProRally]

Motorsport has always been about money. Like it or not, it takes a lot of money to build and race these expensive machines.

Also, I have a hard time taking a post seriously when every other proper noun is written in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.

Lot of people on this forum are NON english speaking, so I am happy to read everything. Errors , typo's and even capital letters :D :D :D

Lot of people on this forum are NON english speaking, so I am happy to read everything. Errors , typo's and even capital letters :D :D :D

;)

[Barreis]

I'm glad that somebody wrote all this stuff..

[Tomi]

McRae was lined up for the 2004 Subaru seat and in an interveiw at the time he said that he thought he had got the drive and so did DR. So clearly some money was passed around at that time..

How could DR think that, when he knew he did not have the money needed to pay McRae, and Subaru was not going to pay?

[Tomi]

Over the years KANKKUNEN, ROVANPERA, MAKINEN, MIKKOLA, GARDEMEISTER, LATVALA, HIRVONEN have all been supported by JOUHKI, and in some cases have only managed to survive thanks to his cash, to the detriment of some other poor blokes who should have had their chance too.

And who are theese other blokes who should have had their chance?

Dont underestimate Juokhi, his influences go back a long time, it was Timo Juohki's father who gave Hannu Mikkola a start, along long time ago.

Absolutely agree on that. Jouhki's arm is very long, he is powerful man in rallysport. The guy knows all the ropes and what not to do, knows how to get his drivers the best cars, and has the cash on hand to push his driver through the deal when needed.

And who are theese other blokes who should have had their chance?

Nobody knows for sure who they were. There are plenty of potential drivers out there. Who would have thought Ogier would be this good without a chance? I am not interested to debate who should get a chance or not, it is irrelevant in my opinion.

What I will say is that for the past years, factory (nominated) seats have been regularly occupied by Jouhki drivers for cash reasons only and not based on prior results. Example : Hirvonen at Subaru in 2004. These seats became untouchable for other young drivers, even for a JWRC champion for example who busts his balls for years going up the ladder with small budgets.

After thee team bosses got used to the pay-to-drive attitude it was over for the other young guys who don't have access to 2.5mil for a season.

The ease with which Jouhki can place not only one but multiple drivers in factory seats with cash when necessary is disconcerting and has highly contributed this "pay-to-drive for a factory phenomenon" we have seen lately. It used to be that a factory seat was for the best guy of the moment, whoever it might be, not anymore.

[Barreis]

Kaffi, YOU'RE THE MAN!

[julkki]

Absolutely agree on that. Jouhki's arm is very long, he is powerful man in rallysport. The guy knows all the ropes and what not to do, knows how to get his drivers the best cars, and has the cash on hand to push his driver through the deal when needed.

I'm confused. Do you like Jouhki and his bisness or do you have a problem with that?

[Barreis]

Who could like this that the best guy can not be in factory seat 'cos of some guy with extra money?!

[julkki]

Barreis and Kaffi give us some examples. Who of these hasn't deserved their seat and why, and who would have been the replacement?

[Barreis]

C.McRae, 2004, Subaru.. I wrote about this FOR SO LONG but every time some Finn comes and tells me I'm talking bull****..

[Tomi]

Nobody knows for sure who they were. There are plenty of potential drivers out there. Who would have thought Ogier would be this good without a chance? I am not interested to debate who should get a chance or not, it is irrelevant in my opinion.

What I will say is that for the past years, factory (nominated) seats have been regularly occupied by Jouhki drivers for cash reasons only and not based on prior results. Example : Hirvonen at Subaru in 2004. These seats became untouchable for other young drivers, even for a JWRC champion for example who busts his balls for years going up the ladder with small budgets.

After thee team bosses got used to the pay-to-drive attitude it was over for the other young guys who don't have access to 2.5mil for a season.

The ease with which Jouhki can place not only one but multiple drivers in factory seats with cash when necessary is disconcerting and has highly contributed this "pay-to-drive for a factory phenomenon" we have seen lately. It used to be that a factory seat was for the best guy of the moment, whoever it might be, not anymore.

What comes to Subaru in 2004, everyone else could have done the same, contact the Japaneese.
How about Sainz then? What if he would never have got support or sponsor money?
Loix also spent time sitting in winning cars because of sponsor money, only different from Jouhkis guys is that they usually get the job done, everyone is a WRC rally winner except Gardemeister.

[julkki]

C.McRae, 2004, Subaru..

Yeap, your whining with ONE clear "unfair" placement becouse of Jouhki. Hardly the big picture right? All the other locks have filled their seat complitely.

[Barreis]

I don't care.. I'm glad that all the Citroen's JWRC champs (except Prokop and don't know why; maybe they smelled money) got their chances in factory teams.. That should be formula - JWRC champ in factory seat at least for one season.. Don't remember when some Finn won some JWRC round (Honda gp.N guy in Finland-don't remember name and Katajamaki I guess but was disqualified in MC rally 2003)..

[julkki]

I don't care.. I'm glad that all the Citroen's JWRC champs (except Prokop and don't know why; maybe they smelled money) got their chances in factory teams.. That should be formula - JWRC champ in factory seat at least for one season..

Hahhhahah, it seems that you care. There's plenty of posts where you are whining becouse of Jouhki.

[Barreis]

It's useless to argue with you anymore.. Kaffi rules..

[urabus-denoS2000]

Obviously Seb succeded with great money behind him , it's necessary .
The thing Barreis points out is that money didn't come out of Seb's pocket but out of other ( sponsor ) pocket's , which I have enourmous respect for . JML was driving a GrN Mitsubishi at the time when he was 17-18 . No talent is recognized at the age of 18 , he drove it because the huge amount of money his family had . When Seb was 18 , he was an electrical engineer and he only drove a rally car at the age of 21 in FFSA Rallye Jeunes , and that was a Peugeot 106 N1 . Therefore , the career path of Seb and JML cannot be put in the same sentence , so is my respect for Seb as huge as it is .

[Barreis]

+1

[Tomi]

Obviously Seb succeded with great money behind him , it's necessary .

Offcourse it is, there is not a single driver there without sponsors or somekind of backing.

[MJW]

Excuse me guys but shouldn't this thread be about the new Fiesta RS and not about Timo Juokhi managed drivers?

[DonJippo]

he drove it because the huge amount of money his family had .

WTF? When has his family had a huge amount of cash? His father owns a company yes but it's small business not that kind you get money for rallying in WRC.

[DonJippo]

Excuse me guys but shouldn't this thread be about the new Fiesta RS and not about Timo Juokhi managed drivers?

It is Jouhki not Juokhi... and talking about him in this thread is more than appropriate as according to some it is him who makes the call who drives with new Fiesta RS in WRC ... :rolleyes:

[MJW]

Sorry for spelling mistake (spelling is not my strongest point) but this thread is rambling back to 2004, and Colin, Loeb, Prokop (spelling?) and everybody else is getting a mention. It is true that Jouhki manages both MH and JML so I guess its kind of relevent, but if we are onto debates about pay drivers again its a shame to clutter up a thread about a new generation rally car. I am a sad techie who wants to know who supplies the gearbox and diffs etc. how does it turn in, etc etc not who is paid or not to drive it.

[Tomi]

I am a sad techie who wants to know who supplies the gearbox and diffs etc.

Its propably Jouhki who supplies. ;)

[MJW]

Its propably Jouhki who supplies. ;)
OK - that's a good one - goodnight everyone

[Juha_Koo]

:D

This is getting interesting. :)

[urabus-denoS2000]

WTF? When has his family had a huge amount of cash? His father owns a company yes but it's small business not that kind you get money for rallying in WRC.

I don't know as much about him or his business as you do of course , but how many 17-year olds can afford to drive a Mitsubishi Evo VI ? And not on a national level , but on a WRC level ( Rally GB 2002 ) ?

[Barreis]

Don't forget Ford focus WRC season in BRC when he was 17 or 18..

[noel157]

Leon asked about British drivers that Jouhki had looked into. These were Wilks and Meeke. But they never passed Jouhki's rigorous mental tests which he conducts to his rally proteges and brokers with the help of one of the Finland's leading (sport/society)psychologist Seppo Heino.



We spoke about this some years ago J_K. Meeke has never spoken to Jouhki so I'm not sure how he managed to complete a "rigorous mental test" unless he did when watching Meeke on TV :) Don't know about Wilks.

Speaking of Meeke he must be the first driver in a very long time to earn a WRC seat without a cheque book or a high-falutin' manager who can pull strings and offer money.
I wish there were more drivers offered seats without an invoice.

[sollitt]

We all do Noel, we all do. But unfortunately we live in the real world. At least ... most of us do.

[Daniel]

Can we get back to saying how much better the DS3 will be than the Fester please?

[Brother John]

It is Jouhki not Juokhi... and talking about him in this thread is more than appropriate as according to some it is him who makes the call who drives with new Fiesta RS in WRC ... :rolleyes:

Hi Don good answer here. :up:
Why so many here want to know what managers does!
Boys go to rallies and look at the cars, don´t forget to read the forum signature...of Don Jippo!!!! ;)
There are two rules for success
1. Never tell everything you know.

Managers do not tell how that they work overtime himself and certainly not with how much money. As on the most of forums many young people think that they know everything what a manager does.

[Daniel]

Hi Don good answer here. :up:
Why so many here want to know what managers does!
Boys go to rallies and look at the cars, don´t forget to read the forum signature...of Don Jippo!!!! ;)
There are two rules for success
1. Never tell everything you know.

Managers do not tell how that they work overtime himself and certainly not with how much money. As on the most of forums many young people think that they know everything what a manager does.
I know this is sillyof me especially as I've reported this thread but I'll bite........


Then why are you always slagging off Sebastien and Citroen?

[Mark]

I've reopened this thread on the condition that it remains on topic!

[ProRally]

So JM-L and Mikko have put more then 1200km on the Fiesta WRC last week...

[Bobcat]

I've reopened this thread on the condition that it remains on topic!
Thank Mark!

The full-specification 1.6-litre Ford EcoBoost turbo engine being flown out to Spain for the car’s next major asphalt test. http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/ford_set_for_the_real_deal_next_week/

[ProRally]

Did they not use the 1.6T engine last week ? But like you mention might not have been 'full spec' one....

[Mirek]

It was 1.6 for sure. The sound was very different to 2.0 ;)

[Barreis]

I've reopened this thread on the condition that it remains on topic!

Thanks.. :)

[Juha_Koo]

Did they not use the 1.6T engine last week ? But like you mention might not have been 'full spec' one....

Yes, it was 1,6 engine but according to Mikko, it wasn't the direct injection model which is to be used next year. Now they're going to get it.

[Bobcat]

The full-specification 1.6-litre Ford EcoBoost turbo engine being flown out to Spain for the car’s next major asphalt test. http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/ford_set_for_the_real_deal_next_week/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfwtjQGIdo8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSXcbYvyIpA

[N.O.T]

slow...

[julkki]

slow...

True..on tarmac one can see a slight difference between the power of the new Fieasta WRC and the old Focus. Fiesta reminds too much S2000 on tarmac. Should be more aggressive :S

Shortly put: New T1.6 WRC's needs more power!

[HaCo]

The sound is, no launch control anymore?

[Bobcat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc9jKb-KeuA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy1GHoNarKk

[Mirek]

The sound is, no launch control anymore?

Yes, I think so.

[Mirek]

True..on tarmac one can see a slight difference between the power of the new Fieasta WRC and the old Focus. Fiesta reminds too much S2000 on tarmac. Should be more aggressive :S

Shortly put: New T1.6 WRC's needs more power!

I would wait for different tarmac roads. To me everything looks really boring on this type of stages (current WRC cars also).

[Allyc85]

Give them more power dam it, im guessing they still run a restrictor?

[Mirek]

Yes, even smaller one - 33 mm.

[julkki]

I would wait for different tarmac roads. To me everything looks really boring on this type of stages (current WRC cars also).

Yep, very true, but I was only referring to performance of the car. In these kind of road and conditions you can see the performance difference of the WRC-cars most clearly.

For me, at least, there's a visible power difference between the new 1.6t and the old WRC.

[Mirek]

Yes, for sure. But on the other hand I prefer S2000 on certain situations like fast changes of direction where they behave much more roughly due to absence of central differential or in very hard braking from high speeds. Since I rarely watch places where they accelerate from slow speeds, I'm not that worried about the engine :)

[vkangas]

Current top spec WRC's are putting out around 400 horses. I'm expecting top 1.6T engines to have almost 350 hp of power somewhere next year when the second development generation of new engines is ready. Yes, there is a tight restrictor but teams have also more freedom with engines because they are allowed to use more custom made parts than before.

For example Malcom Wilson has said that the new Fiesta is propably be as fast as current Focus. With lower weight and much lower air resistance this sounds realistic.

[Mirek]

I don't believe that. They may get faster than current cars in time but it will be mostly because of tyre and suspension development.

By the way there are quite small aerodynamic forces in rally speeds. You can make some basic estimation from a formula Fx = 1/2 * ro * A * cx * v2. If You have frontal area A = 2 m2, cx let's say 0,4, air density ro = 1,3 kg/m3 and speed v = 150 km/h, You have only some 900N of counter force. If You have let's say 0,2 m2 smaller front area You have some 90 N less aerodynamic force. That's like 9 kg. Nothing reasonable ;)

The weight difference is only 30 kg, that's also nothing special. It's a bit more than one spare wheel.

[vkangas]

I don't believe that. They may get faster than current cars in time but it will be mostly because of tyre and suspension development.

By the way there are quite small aerodynamic forces in rally speeds. You can make some basic estimation from a formula Fx = 1/2 * ro * A * cx * v2. If You have frontal area A = 2 m2, cx let's say 0,4, air density ro = 1,3 kg/m3 and speed v = 150 km/h, You have only some 900N of counter force. If You have let's say 0,2 m2 smaller front area You have some 90 N less aerodynamic force. That's like 9 kg. Nothing reasonable ;)

The weight difference is only 30 kg, that's also nothing special. It's a bit more than one spare wheel.

Ok, didn't do the math...although I'm an engineer... :D . But I still believe that they are going to get surprisingly good numbers out of those engines, it only takes some time so I don't expect it straight away.

[AMSS]

I would wait for different tarmac roads. To me everything looks really boring on this type of stages (current WRC cars also).
I have to agree with Mirek, on that sort of tarmac road and also a start you`d need a dragster to make it look fast, can`t really say anything about the performance based on that!
Other than that the handling seems good compared to the Focus which looks like a Hippo trying to hump.
Anyhow the car sounds great and that will give a whole new feeling watching them live I think, thay might even give the effect of being faster when looking at them on the stage due to the sound/ higher revs.

[Donney]

I totally agree, the high revving noise is also a part of the show which has been somewhat lost with the wRC's

[6789]

Does anyone thin Ford should get a tarmac tester since Mikko and Jari don't prefer tarmac? Might be good to get someone who has tarmac as their preferred surface, just a thought

[Bobcat]

6789 yes, we agree: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=856219&postcount=42

[Bobcat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ26TsIJpuo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89E0DvZBQ5o

[N.O.T]

long year ahead for mr-wilson if this car is the one to run in the championship...

[Bobcat]

Wilson: next year will be the best yet for privateers...

“For the first time in years, all of our cars, like all of them – from one end of our service park to the other, through the BP cars, to the Stobarts, the Monsters, the Munchi’s, all of them, they’re all the same. Anything we learn in testing with Mikko [Hirvonen] and Jari [-Matti Latvala] will be passed on and shared. It’s going to be an incredible year.”
http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/wilson_next_year_will_be_the_best_yet_for_privatee rs/

[TyPat107]

I am not sure I understand the above article... Currently what is the difference between a Stobart car and Mikko and Jari's cars?

[AndyRAC]

So currently what is the difference between a Stobart car and Mikko and Jari's cars?

The drivers........ ;)

[Bobcat]

I am not sure I understand the above article... Currently what is the difference between a Stobart car and Mikko and Jari's cars?
TyPat107, the difference between their 2008-spec cars and 2009-spec cars is in the WRC car specification.

[TyPat107]

TyPat107, the difference between their 2008-spec cars and 2009-spec cars is in the WRC car specification.

thanks. and i appreciate the patience. i didnt know the stobart cars were 2008 spec. and i am still trying to understand fia regs since we dont exactly use those here...

Wilson: next year will be the best yet for privateers...

http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/wilson_next_year_will_be_the_best_yet_for_privatee rs/

Only thing to be understood there is that Wilson is looking for suckers.
The two official cars will always be ahead in terms of performance, and especially engine power. I hope that no privateer will fall in this trap and think his private Fiesta is as good as the factory Fiesta. :mad:

I have an idea for Wilson:

If he has 5 "so called" identical Fiestas in Sweden next year, lets have all 5 engine CPU's in a bag and every driver picks his CPU blindfolded for the rally, then leave it sealed in the car for all rally. After that we can talk about identical cars. :D

[N.O.T]

If he has 5 "so called" identical Fiestas in Sweden next year, lets have all 5 engine CPU's in a bag and every driver picks his CPU blindfolded for the rally, then leave it sealed in the car for all rally. After that we can talk about identical cars. :D

with the current driver lineup wilson has in his factory and private cars doing this will not affect the results between them...

Wilson has a company to run its its normal to say those things and his loyal "yes-men" to post them.

with the current driver lineup wilson has in his factory and private cars doing this will not affect the results between them...

Wilson has a company to run its its normal to say those things and his loyal "yes-men" to post them.


True you have a good point. My thoughts were of good drivers thinking to get a car from M-Sport next year. A Guy like PG for example to do Sweden.

[Mirek]

With new cars the difference should be smaller because there is same rule as in S2000 cars - even engine management software must be homologated.

[Barreis]

Wilson: next year will be the best yet for privateers...

http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/wilson_next_year_will_be_the_best_yet_for_privatee rs/

He meant for his pocket.. :D

[Bobcat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXGQrPSapTI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-0m3Pxc3XY

[N.O.T]

worryingly slow....

[Daniel]

worryingly slow....
In the M-Sport tradition :up:

[cali]

Unbelievable guys you are. Judgement based on a video! Makes me laugh :d

[Bobcat]

Thanks the true red fans (N.O.T, Daniel...), “...next year I put the DS3 and my red army in there and then Ford won’t exist...Take care! Take care! Take care! The WRC will be empty, because nobody can do anything against Citroen.”
As if we didn't already know this, lol. :ninja:

[N.O.T]

well it does look slow....even the mini seems faster right now.

[Bobcat]

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/959/75754458665209706686719.jpg

[Allar]

I love Santander livery on Fiesta <3

[N.O.T]

are these the same people that game that horid photoshop of the fiesta with the abu dhabi livery ?? thier photoshop skills haven't improved much....

[Allyc85]

Yea thats shocking that is, anyone could do better in MS Paint..

[cali]

well it does look slow....even the mini seems faster right now.
well, I prefer to judge the performance of the Fiesta after first few rallys

[ste898]

are these the same people that game that horid photoshop of the fiesta with the abu dhabi livery ?? thier photoshop skills haven't improved much....

I would love to see you do better, I doubt you could I really do wish you would shut up sometimes

Well done bobcat looks brill

[Mirek]

I would love to see both Sordo in Fiesta (he could bring Ford back to game on tarmac) and such nice livery instead of fugly Abu Dhabi one (which is just a mess).

[Josti]

are these the same people that game that horid photoshop of the fiesta with the abu dhabi livery ?? thier photoshop skills haven't improved much....

It's just an impression NOT, it looks ok. Better than the actual BP/Castrol/Abu Dhabi livery, which reminds me of vomit.

[N.O.T]

is the deal done ??

[MJW]

is the deal done ??
From what I hear NO

[Barreis]

Sordo deal?

[MJW]

Sordo deal?
Yes, that is what I was replying to, Sordo in a Ford Fiesta, and I hear that it is not a done deal.

[Iskald]

well it does look slow....even the mini seems faster right now.

Your judgement is as always spot on, N.O.T! Based on an amateur video, shot from long distance and out of focus, from a wet gokart track. Yes certainly, the Fiesta is painfully slow...Everybody can se that!

[N.O.T]

thats why i used the verb "look" .... compare it with the footage with the rest and please make a judgement yourself....as i said i hope that the car posts good times on the stages, but right now it LOOKS more like an s2000.

[Daniel]

Your judgement is as always spot on, N.O.T! Based on an amateur video, shot from long distance and out of focus, from a wet gokart track. Yes certainly, the Fiesta is painfully slow...Everybody can se that!
Oh come on. Lets be honest, compared to the test videos of the DS3, the Fiesta looks slower.

[cali]

Oh come on. Lets be honest, compared to the test videos of the DS3, the Fiesta looks slower.

Sorry, something wrong with my eyes then cos' i have never seen videos of those two cars on the same track or stage under identical road condition :rolleyes:

[Juha_Koo]

Oh come on. Lets be honest, compared to the test videos of the DS3, the Fiesta looks slower.

Video distorts reality so much...

I'm going to quote this piece of text after Rally Sweden next year when JML has won it and Fiesta has kicked Citroen's ass. ;)

I'm good at this, I can still remember when people were uncertain and doubting about Mikko winning in Monte Carlo this year. I was so sure about it and quite honestly didn't see any other scenario happening, he's still one of the best in the world compared to some of the IRC regulars. And what happened... :) Post #13: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136045

Mikko won, 2nd lost nearly two minutes, 3rd over three minutes and 5th was almost nine minutes behind. I can still remember the grin on my face after the rally. :cool:

[cali]

Video distorts reality so much...

I'm going to quote this piece of text after Rally Sweden next year when JML has won it and Fiesta has kicked Citroen's ass. ;)

I'm good at this, I can still remember when people were uncertain and doubting about Mikko winning in Monte Carlo this year. I was so sure about it and quite honestly didn't see any other scenario happening, he's still one of the best in the world compared to some of the IRC regulars. And what happened... :) Post #13: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136045

Mikko won, 2nd lost nearly two minutes, 3rd over three minutes and 5th was almost nine minutes behind. I can still remember the grin on my face after the rally. :cool:
You forgot one thing - Ogier was helluva faster than MH on that rally. Only one silly mistake prevented him being on top before his retirement. Ofcourse there are lot's of IF's, but Ogier was the man of the rally back then, not Mikko :)

[Juha_Koo]

You forgot one thing - Ogier was helluva faster than MH on that rally. Only one silly mistake prevented him being on top before his retirement. Ofcourse there are lot's of IF's, but Ogier was the man of the rally back then, not Mikko :)

Still, Mikko won.

:D

[Rallyper]

Still, Mikko won.

:D

yeah. :p

So the worst case scenario for mr N.O.T. then is:

Kimi in a Fiesta beside Ken Block... winning his first round of WRC.... :cool:

[Ondra WRC]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs948.snc4/74130_1682626911311_1406751981_1792580_7646923_n.j pg

[N.O.T]

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6576/p90067305verte2smallcr.jpg

[alleskids]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs948.snc4/74130_1682626911311_1406751981_1792580_7646923_n.j pg

Even this years livery would look good on the Fiesta, because the lines of the Fiesta make it better for the eyes to watch it

If one wants to consider that M-Sport is behind in terms of development in comparison to Citroën (which is my case), it would be wise to think maybe Pipo is not running the engine at max output yet.
Homologuation will happen early in January so by then, hopefully for them, they might be on par with the chevron boys power wise.

[serial jeff]

If one wants to consider that M-Sport is behind in terms of development in comparison to Citroën (which is my case), it would be wise to think maybe Pipo is not running the engine at max output yet.
Homologuation will happen early in January so by then, hopefully for them, they might be on par with the chevron boys power wise.

it would be wisest, I think, to just ignore the troll(s)- everyone else agrees that you can't make any useful judgement based on those videos

[Bobcat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AvPQhQKsNc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M7yy5RuhnE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N6WAFq2j5U

[Gard]

This sounds like the s2000 engine. Maybe my pc sound sucks, but it sounded like a NA engine. No wonder it appears slow.

[cali]

This sounds like the s2000 engine. Maybe my pc sound sucks, but it sounded like a NA engine. No wonder it appears slow.

Definitely turbo engine, you should consider changing your pc sound system ;)

[Roy]

Who was driving? That was slow!

Who was driving? That was slow!

High probability it's Wilson jr. he seems to be main development driver for Ford these days. At least it is cheaper to use him than pay plane ticket for Latvala to fly over there. :D

[N.O.T]

High probability it's Wilson jr. he seems to be main development driver for Ford these days. At least it is cheaper to use him than pay plane ticket for Latvala to fly over there. :D

sure its cheaper....but the results might be a little different.

[Daniel]

Video distorts reality so much...

I'm going to quote this piece of text after Rally Sweden next year when JML has won it and Fiesta has kicked Citroen's ass. ;)

I'm good at this, I can still remember when people were uncertain and doubting about Mikko winning in Monte Carlo this year. I was so sure about it and quite honestly didn't see any other scenario happening, he's still one of the best in the world compared to some of the IRC regulars. And what happened... :) Post #13: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136045

Mikko won, 2nd lost nearly two minutes, 3rd over three minutes and 5th was almost nine minutes behind. I can still remember the grin on my face after the rally. :cool:

Yes, you're the unboubted master of rallying :dozey:

I remember seeing the Xsara at Rally Australia back in 2002 and even though it only finished 7th or something I knew it was going to be quick. The Fiesta doesn't look like that.

[Daniel]

it would be wisest, I think, to just ignore the troll(s)- everyone else agrees that you can't make any useful judgement based on those videos

Boohoohoo I don't agree with what others are saying :( They must be trolls. Boohoohoo

[Iskald]

it would be wisest, I think, to just ignore the troll(s)- everyone else agrees that you can't make any useful judgement based on those videos

Agree completely, jeff, but it just continues to amaze me the knowledge these guys have about absolutely anything regarding rallying. ;-)

[Daniel]

Agree completely, jeff, but it just continues to amaze me the knowledge these guys have about absolutely anything regarding rallying. ;-)

Yes you Norwegians do astound me. You have one decent driver in the WRC and you think you know everything :laugh:

[Mirek]

The question of those discussed videos isn't if Fiesta looks slow on them because it really does look awfully slow. The question is why. And since we don't know the reason, it's impossible to judge the car from that.

[Daniel]

The question of those discussed videos isn't if Fiesta looks slow on them because it really does look awfully slow. The question is why. And since we don't know the reason, it's impossible to judge the car from that.
Not even that. if they're not testing it at 110% then they've already lost.

[Mirek]

Are You sure it was a proper test run? Anyway wet tarmac is usually the most boring surface to watch ;)

[cali]

Yes you Norwegians do astound me. You have one decent driver in the WRC and you think you know everything :laugh:

OK, I know you tried to be funny, but when I have a choice to believe a guy who has been in rallying for all of his life or a forum hummingbird (some say troll) .... tough one :D

[Roy]

What can we see from 1 minute youtube films? They tested long days! What we saw in the movies was a slow driver.

We have to wait for Rally Sweden 2011 for a good view.

[Daniel]

What use is 80% speed testing with a crap driver? I repeat myself again, for this very reason they'll be behind next year

[Roy]

What use is 80% speed testing with a crap driver? I repeat myself again, for this very reason they'll be behind next year

Do you mean why Ford used Wilson for test and not Hirvonen and Latvala? You are right. It is a lack of vision that the team spend no money for more test with these guys.
But maybe they test later, from Wales until Sweden? Not yet?

Do you mean why Ford used Wilson for test and not Hirvonen and Latvala? You are right. It is a lack of vision that the team spend no money for more test with these guys.
But maybe they test later, from Wales until Sweden? Not yet?

+1

Lack of vision and a primary interest being business nowadays. Although there seems to be budget for a company helicopter registered G-MSPT (MSPT for M-Sport, nice!)
seen here: watch at 5:49 to see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqCkkypKj4w


This chopper is a EUROCOPTER EC 135 twin turbine machine.
http://www.eurocopter.com/site/en/ref/Overview_86.html

estimated price per unit : 4.000.000USD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC135

So apparently budget is tight for developping a rally car and hiring proper drivers but for this it's OK. :eek:

[AndyRAC]

Can't say I'm a huge Ford fan, but how much do they actually put in?? Can't be that much.

The WRC seems to be more about making money than making it a successful sport!!

[Daniel]

Roy and Kaffi, that is exactly why Ford will always be second best. Wasting money on helicopters, your useless son and other crap will not help you win titles....... Let's remember that these last few years have been the least competitive for a while and still no drivers titles....

[janvanvurpa]

OK, I know you tried to be funny, but when I have a choice to believe a guy who has been in rallying for all of his life or a forum hummingbird (some say troll) .... tough one :D

When i was a boy i was told stories about Trolls and was under the impression they lived under bridges in the western provinces of Sweden and all over Norway.
Did some take the ferry to Englanti?

[Mise]

I now know why some of you think the Fiesta is slow.
The first clips were in slow motion. :D :D :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSJ4ofHtfcg&feature=related

[Bobcat]

Mise, janvanvurpa +1! :D

Yeah, trolls from Skoda and bots from PSA. ;) :D

[Mirek]

How old are You? At least fifteen?

[Francis44]

Mise, janvanvurpa +1! :D

Yeah, trolls from Skoda and bots from PSA. ;) :D


OH NOES it's a conspiracy.

[Bobcat]

How old are You? At least fifteen?
Hello, the boss of Skoda trolls. What's up? ;) :D

Please stop all off-topic and anti-Ford postings!!!

[Daniel]

Mise, janvanvurpa +1! :D

Yeah, trolls from Skoda and bots from PSA. ;) :D

As opposed to paid plants from Ford?

Mise, that video is hardly proof of anything. I stand by my words and am happy to be proven wrong next year when the Fester takes to the stages against the DS3, but I've been following the WRC for 20 years and have seen all manner of good, bad, slow, middle of the road and just plain rubbish cars and I'd say that the Fester looks set to join the middle of the road group of cars.

I said back in 2002 after seeing the Xsara WRC finish 7th and 9 minutes behind Marcus Gronholm's 206 WRC at Rally Australia. Sure it was slow on the stages but you could see that all it was lacking was a driver who was 100% confident in it and someone who knew the rally. Funnily enough a year later it lead for most of the rally and was pipped at the post by a very determinded Solberg who made a better tyre choice on the last stage.

Bobcat, I think you've misunderstood what a discussion forum is. It's not a place where you can start a Fester thread and no on can say anything negative about it, it's a DISCUSSION forum and as such there will be discussion regardless of whether it's good or bad.

[noel157]

Hello, the boss of Skoda trolls. What's up? ;) :D

Please stop all off-topic and anti-Ford postings!!!


Must admit Bobby that you do appear from your posts to be of school age, which in itself is not a problem of course, but use your head please. We all have opinions and if you disagree with them just write a few lines of reasoned and sensible discussion, it's not difficult but you'll gain little respect if you take on the mantle of George Bush II and act accordingly - "You're either with us or against us". There middle ground you know.

Anyway, so what about that Judas Mikkelsen betraying the blue oval and going to those terrible Czech folk? I think you were telling us a few days ago how happy he was with Papa Wilson.

[RS]

Nice to hear that this car revs slightly higher than the Focus, but it sounds too similar IMO. I've never liked the sound of pipo motors, the 307 was boring too.

In these videos the car doesn't even look as agressive as the S2000 version. Anyone have any ideas yet how much slower the 1.6Ts will be than the old 2.0 WRCs? It will be interesting to see how Hanninen can do next year against Ford's pay boys.

[HaCo]

It will be interesting to see how Hanninen can do next year against Ford's pay boys.
As a rallyfan I'm looking forward to that as well, altough I think FIA would change very quickly the rules if the 'older', non-wrc cars are faster, which is a shame of course.

[Bobcat]

Anyway, so what about that Judas Mikkelsen betraying the blue oval and going to those terrible Czech folk?
Anyway, good luck Andreas. I know rallying costs a lot of money... ;)


Ok back to the Fiesta: http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blog/?p=13473

"Fiesta RS WRC ran well in testing." said Gerard Quinn!

[Iskald]

Anyway, so what about that Judas Mikkelsen betraying the blue oval and going to those terrible Czech folk? I think you were telling us a few days ago how happy he was with Papa Wilson.

"Judas" Mikkelsen? Even if you`re trying to be funny, you`re really stepping out of line with that one. Being critical to a driver is one thing, but this is an insult, if I ever saw one!

[Gard]

"Judas" Mikkelsen? Even if you`re trying to be funny, you`re really stepping out of line with that one. Being critical to a driver is one thing, but this is an insult, if I ever saw one!

Come on Henning! You're getting too old?
Check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic

[Iskald]

Come on Henning! You're getting too old?
Check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic

Don`t lecture me on this topic! It may be irony, it may be trying to be funny, but there is nothing funny whatsoever in calling a person Judas.

[Halvis]

Come on Henning! You're getting too old?
Check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic

Maybe I'm too old too, I don't think it was meant ironic ether...

[Mirek]

Guys, don't get everything so serious. Noel of course meant that to be ironic answer to Bobcat's talks.

[N.O.T]

last time i remember judas was payed to betray....not using daddys money to get a better deal...

[A.F.F.]

Here comes N.O.T and saves the day :D

[Daniel]

You gotta admit that was funny AFF

[A.F.F.]

You gotta admit that was funny AFF

Hence the smiley !

[Daniel]

Sorry. Was posting on my mobile :p

[A.F.F.]

Sorry. Was posting on my mobile :p

Yes, littlebirds sing that you're reinstalling windows and it's not just fun but it's fun fun fun ;)

[Daniel]

That it is. Almost as much fun as seeing M-Sport fail yet again

[noel157]

Don`t lecture me on this topic! It may be irony, it may be trying to be funny, but there is nothing funny whatsoever in calling a person Judas.

Will you wise up?

And nobody picked up my remark about the good citizens of the Czech Republic? :)

Seriously, I think something was lost in translation although I don't really think I need to explain myself. I was being ironic in the sense that I was saying something that meant the opposite of what I wrote and in a joking manner. If you are au fait with Bobcat's evangelical missives on Ford you might understand.
Did I call Andreas Judas? No.

Do I like Mikkelsen? Here's a clue http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117874&highlight=mikkelsen

[Gard]

Don`t lecture me on this topic! It may be irony, it may be trying to be funny, but there is nothing funny whatsoever in calling a person Judas.

somebody have to. you totally missed the context. Not much possitive from you lately? If you wanted, you could be such a asset to this forum. But what do you choose to do?

[Daniel]

Is it just me or do the Nowegians have something stuck up their butts?

[Sulland]

Yes, we all have an Ice Spike there !! :s mokin:

[A.F.F.]

But think how easily you may place it with all that oil you guys have :)

Roy and Kaffi, that is exactly why Ford will always be second best. Wasting money on helicopters, your useless son and other crap will not help you win titles....... Let's remember that these last few years have been the least competitive for a while and still no drivers titles....

least competitive years and if you look at big picture you can see that since 2005, and except for the couple Gronholm years, the drop of competitivity is in perfect sync with the increase of paying drivers arriving in the Ford cars.

The days of M-Sport with Delecour, Martin, Duval, McRae and Sainz all driving the Focus with soul like the real racers that they are, and being paid to take risks like a real racer should be are over. Now you put a kid with a suitcase of dollars in the bucket seat, let him "learn" and pay for 5 years and wait.....maybe he might be champion.....or not! :D

[Francis44]

Ford's faith is in Latvala hands. And if they keep this second driver crap and keep Hirvonen as number 1 then it's over for them.

[Barreis]

least competitive years and if you look at big picture you can see that since 2005, and except for the couple Gronholm years, the drop of competitivity is in perfect sync with the increase of paying drivers arriving in the Ford cars.

The days of M-Sport with Delecour, Martin, Duval, McRae and Sainz all driving the Focus with soul like the real racers that they are, and being paid to take risks like a real racer should be are over. Now you put a kid with a suitcase of dollars in the bucket seat, let him "learn" and pay for 5 years and wait.....maybe he might be champion.....or not! :D

+1

[Juha_Koo]

Yes, we all have an Ice Spike there !! :s mokin:


But think how easily you may place it with all that oil you guys have :)

Hahah! :D :D

Do teams have now somekind of limited testing times or can they test their new cars 24/7 if they want to?

[Barreis]

24/7..

[Hartusvuori]

Do teams have now somekind of limited testing times or can they test their new cars 24/7 if they want to?

Before homologations it should be 24/7, right?

Fiesta WRC is being tested as we speak in Wales, I think. Jarmo Lehtinen wrote in Finnish AutoBild that they're considering an extra week on gravel in December as well + it's being tested in Sweden before Christmas.

[Bobcat]

Adapta Motorsport confirms Ford Fiesta RS WRC for 2011: http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/news/488-adapta-motrosport-confirms-ford-fiesta-rs-wrc-for-2011

[Mise]

Mads Østberg vs Andreas Mikkelsen

A little off topic, but I would like to know
which one do you rank as a faster driver. :eek:

Edit:
Okey this shoud be in the Adapta thred.
Sorry for beeing blind.

[Bobcat]

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/5724/fiestacarte.jpg

[Bobcat]

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/5518/fordfiestarswrcabudhabi.jpg

[Roy]

What a creativity! A lot of colours and always the same boring stripes. :\

can't they do it any better? And please stop posting the same Fiesta. Wait for the official livery...

[alleskids]

@ Roy.It is not the official livery, but a fantasy of Jean-Charles.

A lot of the exposure of the sponsor get wasted by the stripes. Can't you create a more colourful livery? Al Qassimi has a nice one on his MERc Fiesta S2000. Ad some BP and Castrol to it :)

I hope that Mads keeps the orange livery of his Fiesta S2000. Mads and Henning could form Team Orange :) , with 2 diffferent sponsors ( Coca Cola and Expert)

[Walach]

It will look like your national team :D

[alleskids]

Which makes it an other reason to cheer for Mads and Henning.
Hup Mads, je kan het!
Hup Henning, mijn kampioen! :)

[julkki]

I hope Kuipers gets his financing ok and gets those WRC-starts next year :)

I'm actually curious to know how popular rallying is in Netherlands? At least there's some drivers driving some races in international level. Kuipers, Abbring and Merkenstejn's? In rallymedia.nl videos in youtube there's quite nice amount of spectators in the stages. Nice tarmac roads too, very similar to Ypres Rally.

Would be nice to see a Dutch-man in WRC-level.

[alleskids]

rally is alive and kicking in The Netherlands, with lot of WRCars, but most are hobbiest. Most of the rally stages are .. too soft, not demanding enough like in WRC or IRC. The step from national to international is quite big.
Some now and then big talents rise up, like Peter Bijvelds and now Hans Weijs and Kevin Abring, who can challange for the real top given the time and equipement. Kuipers is good, but Weijs and Abbring are better :) .

[OldF]

What I remember from rallies in Netherlands is the Tulip rally, which was won by Timo Mäkinen in 1964 and, by Rauno Aaltonen in 1966. But that’s a while ago.

[Barreis]

rally is alive and kicking in The Netherlands, with lot of WRCars, but most are hobbiest. Most of the rally stages are .. too soft, not demanding enough like in WRC or IRC. The step from national to international is quite big.
Some now and then big talents rise up, like Peter Bijvelds and now Hans Weijs and Kevin Abring, who can challange for the real top given the time and equipement. Kuipers is good, but Weijs and Abbring are better :) .

This's really honest when we compare it with some comments from Finns..

[OldF]

This's really honest when we compare it with some comments from Finns..

If you mean mine comment that one wasn’t to be a in any way to underestimate the changes of drivers from the Netherlands. I just said that what I remember from rallies from Netherlands in the way of the old good times. I’m not been following European rallies so closely and therefore I don’t know so much what is happening.

I was once on a training course held by a guy from Netherlands and I’ve also once trained a guy from Netherlands that was visiting the company in which I was working in that time. Both very nice guys and I got very well along with them.

Sorry if I offend someone.

[Barreis]

Don't worry.. Tomi and few other are radicals.. :D

[alleskids]

Rallying and racing is too much under restrictions from local goverments, enviroment activities, local citizens who are against motorsport. It is hard to get permisisons for an event. Plus good rallyroads are hard to find, Other countries have the "luck"" to have exciting roads were drivers can realy learn to control their car. Finland is among the countries has that privilage, which translates in many really good rally drivers.

[Barreis]

Yeah, but your comment was really honest and if you think that way-realistic.. :)

[alleskids]

thanks :) . I want to have Dutch rallydrivers dominating WRC, like the Fins and the French, but for the time being Nederland has to settle for top 20, and an occacionally point scoring, thanks to driving in high tech WRCars, and other drivers having trouble.

[jim84]

hi guys i'm new to this site. I notice you lot do talk rubbish sometimes. Anyawy.... I heard the fiesta did about 800km this week at kielder forrest with mikko and jari.

ps. If you lot were wondering why it was slow at kames(Go kart track), it was a engineer doing the driving not matt. They were just putting miles on the engine. All the other drivers were at greystoke testing the focus before GB Rally.

[Retlub Ecaps]

hi guys i'm new to this site. I notice you lot do talk rubbish sometimes.

Yeah.. There are a few people like that, but not many, so you learn who to ignore pretty quickly. :D Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the info!

[Bobcat]

hi guys i'm new to this site. I notice you lot do talk rubbish sometimes. Anyawy.... I heard the fiesta did about 800km this week at kielder forrest with mikko and jari.

ps. If you lot were wondering why it was slow at kames(Go kart track), it was a engineer doing the driving not matt. They were just putting miles on the engine. All the other drivers were at greystoke testing the focus before GB Rally.
Thanks for this info. Here's a few photos from the test, right jim84?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs467.ash2/74067_1707075873639_1140309712_31921577_6060316_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs568.ash2/149039_1707074673609_1140309712_31921573_1346225_n .jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs969.snc4/76287_1707073673584_1140309712_31921571_6011725_n. jpg