Should A trip to the mountains be regulated?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Here is a quandary. Well maybe not for some but for others. In British Columbia, the famous sights of mountains is a invitation for people to ski down them, snowmobile up them or just hike and climb all over. However, mountains don't come with warning labels or legal waivers. People get killed, and this past weekend, an avalanche that swept down the mountain into 200 people and killed 2. The snowmobiliers were in a mountain meadow full of deep powder for an unofficial get together of friends. Now...avalanches come with mountains, especially in the western rockies as the snow can often be moisture laden, and as the year goes on, it can be dangerous. The RCMP and Military do have advisories for the mountains, and block people from going in while the military sets off avalanches using mortars. So it isn't like society isn't trying to make the situation safe.

That said, the Vancouver Province had this editorial : http://www.theprovince.com/opinion/Editorial+snowmobilers+must+regulated/2687334/story.html

Now Iam all for making people be more responsible with a snowmobile, or where they go, BUT this is a thin argument thinking this would save any of those lives. People do stupid things behind the wheel of cars with valid licenses, so I fail to see how adding more laws helps.

The real worry is though they may restrict people from going into the crown lands that are much of the interior. This is more or less a public domain, and will laws be on people to NOT do this, NOT do that, not mountain climb, not do extreme sports etc. I know there is a line, but I just am wary of trying to draw up lines that mean people will become smarter. The reality is, the mountains are what they are, and there was no avalanche advisory for the area in question that day...... so where is the line drawn?

[Easy Drifter]

Mark I believe there were avalanche warnings for that area that day.
That said we are becoming more and more of a nanny state and the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Ontario does require helmets and permits to use the trails. I think all snowmobiles are licenced here. I mean McGuinty never misses a chance to grab more money. They still kill themselves usually through stupidity.
I have been in those mountains and seen the results of avalanches but have never seen one. I have never climbed in those mountains but have hiked in some of them even above the tree line, but not in winter. I have been out on the Columbia icefields.
There is a certain amount of minor risk taking when you go out in the mountains and then there is stupidity.
Look at that fellow who was a TV survival fan and went into the wilderness with only the clothes he was wearing, a knife, hatchet and fishing gear in mid winter. He died. A real experienced woodsman would have survived with that equipment. But he took a chance. You cannot really regulate that.
I have hunted in the wilderness in the winter and always carried some food, a compass, matches in a waterproof container and either a good knife or hatchet. I was on snowshoes too. I did know survival tips but who knows. I also really dressed for it.
The ice on Geogian Bay has that blue/gray look that tells anybody with ice knowledge 'I ain't safe' and yet yesterday there were snowmobiles out on it. There was also a snowmobiler jumping open water at the mouth of the Hog River time after time. He got away with it but if he had gone in I doubt if anyone with rescue gear could have got to him in time.
A canoer drowned today right in the town of Newmarket when he went over a dam. People were there but until the police dive team arrived nobody could do a thing in that swift ice cold water.
There are accidents and there is stupidity and you cannot regulate the latter.

[Mark]

We have the same problem in the UK. A lot of people climb up mountains in the Lake District, and 99.999% of them are perfectly fine. One particular current forum member who likes to climb up mountains comes to mind! But even so, several people die on the Lake District fells every year, mostly in winter. Sure it's people going up in trainers and shorts in December, but also experienced climbers.

In order to get them out it invariably requires the RAF to send a helicopter to winch people out to safety, and the tireless work of unpaid mountain rescue crews. It's to get people out of a situation they didn't need to be in the first place, but what else to do you, leave them there? Start charging people, if so where do you draw the line at who to charge and who not?

[Dave B]

My answer would be for people to take out insurance for dangerous sports and activities. Premiums should be cheaper for experienced or qualified people, and the emergency services should reclaim any costs that way.

[Mark]

My answer would be for people to take out insurance for dangerous sports and activities. Premiums should be cheaper for experienced or qualified people, and the emergency services should reclaim any costs that way.

But then do you police the mountains saying that you cannot come here unless you have insurance? Impossible to enforce, and probably not legal either.

[GridGirl]

We have the same problem in the UK. A lot of people climb up mountains in the Lake District, and 99.999% of them are perfectly fine. One particular current forum member who likes to climb up mountains comes to mind! But even so, several people die on the Lake District fells every year, mostly in winter. Sure it's people going up in trainers and shorts in December, but also experienced climbers.

Now I like happen to like my Lakeland fell's but truth be told I havent ventured up any since late September and I'm itching to get back up again. The main reasons I havent been up the fell's is becuase I lack equipment, experience and adequate training for the winter conditions. I have no great desire to going on any training courses either so I just don't bother going up in winter. You have to know your own capabilities and I simply don't have the necessary skills in winter. There's no point in going looking for trouble. I can find plenty of other hobbies to keep me occupied during the winter months. :)

[mjh]

The BMC (British Mountaineering Council) does offer specialist insurance for mountain sports. I don't see why it should be mandatory though. The reality is that the vast majority of people that go into the mountains (or the bush) appreciate the risks and take due precautions. Most 'normal' people who don't know how to look after themselves have enough common sense to know their limits and don't get into trouble either.
The minority of people that get into trouble are generally those who lack a bit of common sense. Darwins theory at work again....
The very very small minority of experienced people who get into trouble knew and prepared for the risks as best they could, but sometimes nature just outsmarts you.
The day I accept anyones suggestion that mandatory adventure sports insurance is necessary to enable the emergency services to 'reclaim the costs' is the day after all the drunks, druggies, smokers, obese people, irresponsible drivers etc etc take out extra insurance that enables the emergency services to reclaim the (much greater) costs incurred from them.
Will be interesting to see what happens in the UK after the SAR choppers are privitised though.... http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3984057

[Mark in Oshawa]

The reason why I posted this is I read the headline "Gov't looking at licensing Snowmobiliers" on a Facebook story, with a link to the editorial I posted. It made me mad. The editorial I don't disagree with a lot of, but I know where it leads. You cannot legislate common sense, nor can you make sure everyone who goes out the door have specialist insurance for extreme sports.

Here, in Canada with our socialized healthcare, we have people advocating what sports should be legal, and should people carry EXTRA insurance to go skiing or ride a snowmobile. Sounds reasonable, but now we are starting to dicate people's behaviour, and where does freedom become a regulated commodity in one's life?

As Drifter points out, here in my part of Canada, people need licenses to operate snowmobiles. We don't have mountains with avalanches, but we have lots of lakes, and you hear all the time of guys going through the ice thinking they can "puddle jump" their snowmobiles across stretches of water. AT some point, we have to allow for the fact some people are idiots. You cannot advocate also for things like this get together in the mountains where the avalanche swept them away being "Banned." I think at some point, people will do stupid things, and it is part of living in a free society.