Mexico Citroen Tactics

[Mintexmemory]

In the main event thread the theory was proposed that Loeb finished 2nd in Sweden deliberately to avoid being first on road for Day 1 in Mexico. Clearly this rally showed that you don't want to be first on Day2. That being the case why didn't Petter slow to put at least Ogier in front of him for Day 2?
I don't buy the 'I only drive one way' interviews Petter gave at the end of day 1. His day 1 lead was as much due to Loeb not wanting to be 1st as it was to his own pace. Losing a minute to Loeb on the first 2 stages of day 2 just seems like too big a reversal. I suspect that Petter is as much under team orders as Dani Sordo (Team Citroen No3 driver ;) )

[Langdale Forest]

Petter Solberg should be 100% free of Citroen team orders.

[Viking]

"Yes, I could have played a tactical game. But in the team we decided it was more important for us to show that we were leading a rally. We're still looking for sponsors for this season, and to be ahead of everybody else sends a strong message. Anyway, I needed to learn how to be fast in this car when the road conditions weren't ideal."

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=7191&desc=Petter+admits+to+a+%27little+regret%27+over+h is+tactical+choice

[Viking]

Day 1 Hirvonen lost 0,67s/km to fastest driver (Solberg 7th on the road)
Day 2 Solberg lost 0,52s/km to fastest driver (Loeb 3rd on the road)
Day 3 Loeb lost 0,64s/km to fastest driver (Ogier 3rd on the road)

[Mintexmemory]

"Yes, I could have played a tactical game. But in the team we decided it was more important for us to show that we were leading a rally. We're still looking for sponsors for this season, and to be ahead of everybody else sends a strong message. Anyway, I needed to learn how to be fast in this car when the road conditions weren't ideal."

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=7191&desc=Petter+admits+to+a+%27little+regret%27+over+h is+tactical+choice

Let me state right off that I admire PS immensely.
However I find the above quote, which is what I was referring to in my 1st post, very much a smokescreen. The man is a former World Champ (the only other one besides SL regularly competing) who has been driving the C4 for over six months - and he needs to learn how to be fast in conditions that aren't ideal! It's called rallying, Petter. Surely sponsors would be flocking all the more to back a winner?. At the end of Day 1 he could have done what Latvala did on SS19 and having proven how fast he could go drop to 30 secs behind Loeb, he would still have got the headlines and put himself in line for a real contest on Saturday, the real deciding day. Sorry I don't think the cost of the private C4 was only cash or if it was then spares come with lots of strings attached

[pettersolberg29]

Day 1 Hirvonen lost 0,67s/km to fastest driver (Solberg 7th on the road)
Day 2 Solberg lost 0,52s/km to fastest driver (Loeb 3rd on the road)
Day 3 Loeb lost 0,64s/km to fastest driver (Ogier 3rd on the road)

That's quite an impressive stat - I'd have thought based on Loeb's immense pace that Petter suffered more than Mikko, but this suggests Petter was actually right up there on pace alone.

[I am evil Homer]

To the thread stater....did you even watch the Swedish Rally? Loeb admitted he couldn't match Mikko's pace so decided to bag the points rather than risk going off the road.

To suggest he did so as a tactic is as laughable as Wilson's "5 year plan"

[playmo]

To homer, are the drivers obligued to tell the truth? as far as i know they can choose what to tell and to whoever they want, if Loeb said the end of the world is tomorrow, would you believe it?
the tactics will be present at every moment during the events, and between them, and it's been throughly discussed around here the "world rally tactics championship" that wilson/quesnell have got going on for quite a while...

2cents.

To think that Loeb runs with his heart on his sleeve all the time is what is laughable, him being the most calculating driver ever.

Maybe, and just maybe, he wasn't on mikko's pace on sweden by descicion, and why risk a dnf on a surface that will only be run once on the calendar?

[Red bull]

Let me state right off that I admire PS immensely.
However I find the above quote, which is what I was referring to in my 1st post, very much a smokescreen. The man is a former World Champ (the only other one besides SL regularly competing) who has been driving the C4 for over six months - and he needs to learn how to be fast in conditions that aren't ideal! It's called rallying, Petter. Surely sponsors would be flocking all the more to back a winner?. At the end of Day 1 he could have done what Latvala did on SS19 and having proven how fast he could go drop to 30 secs behind Loeb, he would still have got the headlines and put himself in line for a real contest on Saturday, the real deciding day. Sorry I don't think the cost of the private C4 was only cash or if it was then spares come with lots of strings attached
Thats true i also smell a big rat in the matter,solberg driving a simillar car to loed couldnt loose all that time within 2stages,those were team tactics 4rm citroen and seems they have solberg in their pockets.wheres the wrc heading to?

[pettersolberg29]

I just think that tactically, Petter has lost it. He's still quite fast, but is a little tactically naive in my opinion - both in sweeping here, and use of tyres, when and how much to attack etc. It makes for more exciting rallying though, and is one of the main reasons I support Petter so much.

[paddocknews]

Ogier slowed down on the penultimate stage. Team orders? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtt99BhQAzo

[MrJan]

Surely if Citroen wanted to do team tactics then they would just do like Ford did, or like they have done in the past, and stop one driver?

Sounds like a bit of a paranoid notion TBH, better staart fashioning that tin foil hat ready for when we get 'visitors' ;) :p :

[pettersolberg29]

Valmacher - not team orders. Seb just wanted to be 3rd on the road on Sunday to give him a better chance of beating Petter. Almost worked a charm.

[Mirek]

But that is not from saturday but from the penultimate stage of the rally according to the time.

[bretddog]

No..... this is indeed the penultimate stage..

wow, I didn't expect that. Will this be to push Petter up on the starting order in Jordan?

[TMorel]

Having seen his reaction I doubt that Petter was faking his joy so I dont believe he would have known that Seb II had to been told to slow, all this does is humiliate Petter - or is that their tactic, to unsettle him mentally after all, the works team must have known the footage would get out.

[AndyRAC]

Mmm, it very strange to slow on the penultimate stage - is there something going on? Citroen do a favour for Petter in return for what....???

Personally, I don't like all these tactics, I just want to see drivers flat out driving. It might not be as bad if there were 3-4 other Works teams.

[pettersolberg29]

That is bizarre then. Sorry - I assumed it was the last stage on Saturday.

[bretddog]

Remember in Citroen, everything is done for Loeb, and for Loeb only. I feel quite positive this was done to slow Petter down slightly for day 1 in Jordan, and also to have Ogier behind him, meaning they may be able to control to get the starting order Petter - Ogier - Loeb on day 2. Obviously there are other drivers that will probably get into that picture, but nervertheless, they may see Petter as the biggest threat next to Mikko, so this tactic actually makes sense. It's a fair trade, to pull Ogier down to 3rd, for having a better chance for Loeb on the next victory. It's just one scenario that could occur, but I think that is enough for them to make this tactic. They play the odds, simply. But this is way more tactic than I enjoy to see.

[pettersolberg29]

Just had a look at the splits from SS21 and Ogier only lost 1.1s on the last split. Petter said he was flat out and really good on the last bit, so I figure that something is wrong with that data. Maybe the picture is from the last stage on Saturday and the tmes have been pasted on from SS21?

Or am I just an optomistic and ill-informed Petter Solberg fan who can't accept it?

[paddocknews]

this is Motors TV fault...

[Viking]

I really dont get this, only 0,3s seperated them on the last split and Petter was faster than everybody else from the last split and in, it looks like Ogier is loosing seconds?? I think it is the tv-guys that is playing us here and the clip is from Saturdays stage that has the same finish...

[pettersolberg29]

I agree Viking. No way would Petter and Ogier react as they did if they knew this had happened.

[Stalks]

I thought when I posted the theory in the main Mexico thread I was going to get slaughtered, but now it seems I'm not the only one questioning it.

My 2 cents - Petter is either under Citroen umbrella, or they are playing him. Makes no sense to me why he didn't slow on Saturday - as stated a rally win is way better for sponsors than leading at some stage.
My money is on him 'miraculously' leading at the end of day 1 in Jordan....

Can't wait to see who will be pushed into running 1st on the road in New Zealand....probably the worst sweeping job of the championship!

[bretddog]

hehe.. yea, I guess it's a fake, probably just a home made youtube upload.
Otherwise someone here would know about this already.

[Blitzerflitzer]

yea, I guess it's a fake,

Sorry, but no fake. We have seen this also in the german MotorsTV-Version today. The Commentator stopp talking for a moment and then... ignore what he has seen on the screen.

But if they really make a mistake and the pictures are from Saturday, why is the Time they show, the right for stage 21 (and stop right on the Finish-Line) ?

[bluuford]

There is no difference in Jordan. Petter starts behind Ogier anyway.

[bretddog]

Wasn't this the stage Petter sounded completely nuts and "was on the doorhandles" and said he went really well.. As others have said, No chance Ogier could have beaten his time from that last split with several seconds, like the video indicates. If Petter was honest, which I'm sure he was, by the way he talked.

[TMorel]

Ok, at the last split they were 8:13.2 for Petter and 8:12.9 for Seb II
A difference of 0.3seconds

90seconds later Petter has lost 2-3seconds, Citroen have got a message thru to them, Ingrassia has done the maths and Seb II slows down and cruises to the finish?

Wow

[tmx]

I am sure Petter can make his own calls, but for how long will he have a competitive car if he is hampering the factory team and taking away their points?

Imagine Henning with a car comparable to leading factory Ford and with testings.

[ridder]

Ok, at the last split they were 8:13.2 for Petter and 8:12.9 for Seb II
A difference of 0.3seconds

90seconds later Petter has lost 2-3seconds, Citroen have got a message thru to them, Ingrassia has done the maths and Seb II slows down and cruises to the finish?

Wow

It seems more like 4-5 seconds drop (specially following the counting), so he'd have to get 4-5 seconds at the last 2 mins of driving in a section where people like Hirvonen lost another 2 seconds to Solberg.

And the proof of this is a black and white badly cropped video on youtube?

Interestingly 4-5 seconds is what Ogier dropped on Saturday and again interestingly SS 19 (Saturday) and SS21 (Sunday) have same last part of the stage as described here: http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=7161&desc=Rally%20Mexico%20-%20Sunday%27s%20stage%20guide

So what do you think is more probable?

[playmo]

everything is possible with this greedy team bosses (specially works ones), the thing that must have Malcom coursing to the skies, is that he does not have any competitive driver to make favours to Hirvonen and Latvala.
I personally don't doubt that Solberg is under some kind of control on behalf of citroen, in the end seems that Quesnell is the one teaching a lesson on tactics and "team work" to Wilson, hehehaha.

[TMorel]

Well, if Citroën announce the signing of Nelson Piquet Jr. for Rally Jordan then we know that something dodgy is going on with tactics.

[ridder]

So let's get the "facts" straight.

1. Citroen sabotages Solbergs car by changing his engine right before rally Sweden.
2. This way Solberg gets a bad result and starts late in Mexico
3. Loeb deliberately drops to 2nd in Sweden to be behind Hirvonen in Mexico
4. Solberg whom after Sweden people tell to go home stays first after day 1 just to clean for Loeb even though Ogier is already ahead of Loeb.
5. Ogier gets 5 seconds on Solberg in some 90 seconds of driving, something which he hasn't done the whole weekend and then immediately slows down to stay only a bit ahead.
6. Ogier further "slows" down on superspecial by beating Loeb and matching Sordos time ( who has everything to prove after being worst Citroen the whole weekend) to give 2nd place to Solberg.

:D

Stay tuned for the explanation how Kennedy got hijacked by Aliens which used his mind to cause the planes to crash into WTC to which the US responded by sending a HAARP message that backfired and caused Earthquakes on Haiti and in Chile.

[curry]

In the main event thread the theory was proposed that Loeb finished 2nd in Sweden deliberately to avoid being first on road for Day 1 in Mexico.

No way.

Did you see Loeb's body language after Mikko trumped him with the tyre change. I've never seen Seb's as angry about getting tactically beaten, probably because he thinks (rightly so) he is the best tactician in the championship.

As for Petter being under control of Citroen, I just don't buy it. Petter had a shocker in Sweden and he just wanted to race as hard as he could without worrying about anything else so that he could right some wrongs and maybe prove a few things to himself along the way. Maybe he didn't quite believe that he could fight for a win and as such didn't want to get into a tactical battle. I believe he made the right decision as a privateer who has a lot to worry about outside of just driving his car.

[MrJan]

Can I just get this straight, Citroen slowed one of their factory cars (albeit part of their junior team) to allow a privateer to get ahead so that, instead of getting his first podium, Ogier might have slightly better road position in Jordan? If it had been Solberg slowing then I could understand this argument but I really can't see Citroen slowing a factory car for a privateer, no matter how close a relationship they have with that driver.

There are some seriously hilarious ideas on this thread, I reckon that Citroen are probably testing nuclear missiles too.

[Mintexmemory]

To the thread stater....did you even watch the Swedish Rally? Loeb admitted he couldn't match Mikko's pace so decided to bag the points rather than risk going off the road.

To suggest he did so as a tactic is as laughable as Wilson's "5 year plan"
Agreed, I didn't say that, I was merely reporting what someone said on the main rally thread.

If there is an 'understanding' then it will be along the lines of:- if Seb L is in a top 5 position Petter must let him through, unless that also benefits MIkko. On their part, if Petter plays ball, Citroen won't let any other C4 driver ahead of him.

I don't buy all the possible conspiracy theories that can be postulated around the first 2 events of the season but I'm willing to bet that any time this year the Loeb is on the podium Petter will be on a lower step

[Halvis]

So let's get the "facts" straight.

1. Citroen sabotages Solbergs car by changing his engine right before rally Sweden.
2. This way Solberg gets a bad result and starts late in Mexico
3. Loeb deliberately drops to 2nd in Sweden to be behind Hirvonen in Mexico
4. Solberg whom after Sweden people tell to go home stays first after day 1 just to clean for Loeb even though Ogier is already ahead of Loeb.
5. Ogier gets 5 seconds on Solberg in some 90 seconds of driving, something which he hasn't done the whole weekend and then immediately slows down to stay only a bit ahead.
6. Ogier further "slows" down on superspecial by beating Loeb and matching Sordos time ( who has everything to prove after being worst Citroen the whole weekend) to give 2nd place to Solberg.

:D

Stay tuned for the explanation how Kennedy got hijacked by Aliens which used his mind to cause the planes to crash into WTC to which the US responded by sending a HAARP message that backfired and caused Earthquakes on Haiti and in Chile.

Very funny :)

If you look at the video and check the split times towards other drivers, it is clear that the video must be a fake - there is no way that Ogier could have been that much faster than Petter on those 2 minutes of driving that it would have been possible to slow so much down and still achieve his stage time. No way.

[MrJan]

I'm willing to bet that any time this year the Loeb is on the podium Petter will be on a lower step

So am I....because Loeb is clearly the better driver.

[Ghostwalker]

I am sure Petter can make his own calls, but for how long will he have a competitive car if he is hampering the factory team and taking away their points?



I dont think Citroen will downgrade his car. A fast Petter can take points from Miko in the Drivers Championship.

[Blitzerflitzer]

No sabotage, no secret plans, just an error. I ask Motors TV, here is the answer:

It was indeed an editing mistake... Thanks for noticing it, and apologies for this inconvenience, we´ll make sure it doesn´t happen again.

[MrJan]

No sabotage, no secret plans, just an error. I ask Motors TV, here is the answer:

It was indeed an editing mistake... Thanks for noticing it, and apologies for this inconvenience, we´ll make sure it doesn´t happen again.

:laugh: It happens all the time. They fob off parts of one stage as part of another fairly regularly. Whenever I've been to watch a WRC even they clearly use one section and say it's something else, have done for years too.

[Viridian Black]

good old motors tv screw up

[Hartusvuori]

Once again checking the facts ruins a perfect story. But of course for conspiracy theories that doesn't make a difference.

And because I haven't said it earlier, I was very happy about the level of performance from both Ogier and P. Solberg. Only if they could challenge for the win on a few occasion it'd make the championship far more interesting. I remember Ogier being consistently improving from day to day on last year's NORF and it could be that once the faster gravel rallies come, he'll be there to add pressure for Sordo and JML at least. Also for P. Solberg Mexico must've been really good for his mojo, whereas Hirvonen's mojo took quite a few punches throughout the weekend. The worst case scenario is that he'll shell back to his last year's approach (the not-aggressive-enough-to-win) and we'll see a serie of victories from Loeb before the summer break.

[Daniel]

So let's get the "facts" straight.

1. Citroen sabotages Solbergs car by changing his engine right before rally Sweden.
2. This way Solberg gets a bad result and starts late in Mexico
3. Loeb deliberately drops to 2nd in Sweden to be behind Hirvonen in Mexico
4. Solberg whom after Sweden people tell to go home stays first after day 1 just to clean for Loeb even though Ogier is already ahead of Loeb.
5. Ogier gets 5 seconds on Solberg in some 90 seconds of driving, something which he hasn't done the whole weekend and then immediately slows down to stay only a bit ahead.
6. Ogier further "slows" down on superspecial by beating Loeb and matching Sordos time ( who has everything to prove after being worst Citroen the whole weekend) to give 2nd place to Solberg.

:D

Stay tuned for the explanation how Kennedy got hijacked by Aliens which used his mind to cause the planes to crash into WTC to which the US responded by sending a HAARP message that backfired and caused Earthquakes on Haiti and in Chile.

I think I'm going to like having you on the forum :D

[MikeD]

Well, if Citroën announce the signing of Nelson Piquet Jr. for Rally Jordan then we know that something dodgy is going on with tactics.

...especially if they ask Hamilton to tell the lies about what happened afterwards :D

[Daniel]

...especially if they ask Hamilton to tell the lies about what happened afterwards :D
Yeah then they need to fire one of their semi-senior people :)