Edwards Keselowski Accident

[Riley]

OK, so I'm not a NASCAR fan, but I just caught the accident between Edwards and Keselowski. I have to say I'm totally disgusted by this kind of driving. It seems that this is acceptable in this branch of motor sport and I'm at a total loss to understand why. How long do we have to wait before a driver is killed, or even worse spectators? If this behavior is allowed to continue then I'm afraid it is just a matter of time. Making the excuse that one driver did this or that to justify wrecking another car is never acceptable.

What is equally worrying to me is that this crass driving is making its way down to the lower levels, and young kids starting out in, for example Legends cars start to believe that the front bumper is a substitute for talent.

This is one of the reasons why this series is 'entertainment' and not motor sport. Very Sad.

[gloomyDAY]

http://www.gifanatics.com/files/InBeforeTheLock.gif

[Scotty G.]

That's how you take care of things on a racetrack in a stock car. As Carl said in his interview, that should be the end of it between those two and that will be that.

Certainly nobody wanted to see him take flight, but I betcha Ole' Brad learned a lesson today. Sometimes a real hard wallop into a wall, will give you a new apprecation for your actions on a racetrack.

Kid is bad fast, but he is a jerk on the track and he has pissed off almost everyone in Nationwide and Cup in the past few years.

You continue to mess with the same guy and someday, he's gonna get you.

[DanicaFan]

What a wild finish. I was so hoping Juan Montoya would of won though.

Im glad Brad K is alright but what comes around goes around. He got his payback from flipping Carl last year at Talladega.

[slorydn1]

We already have a thread for this:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137269&page=2

That said, I agree with Scotty G :up:

And Gloomy day, it took me three looks at your post before I got it...
LMAO!!!!!! :rotflmao:

We don't usually lock threads in the Nascar Forum...feelings don't get hurt quite as easily here as in other racing series...

:beer:

[gloomyDAY]

And Gloomy day, it took me three looks at your post before I got it...
LMAO!!!!!! :rotflmao:

We don't usually lock threads in the Nascar Forum...feelings don't get hurt quite as easily here as in other racing series...

:beer: :up:

[Riley]

That's how you take care of things on a racetrack in a stock car. As Carl said in his interview, that should be the end of it between those two and that will be that.

Certainly nobody wanted to see him take flight, but I betcha Ole' Brad learned a lesson today. Sometimes a real hard wallop into a wall, will give you a new apprecation for your actions on a racetrack.

Kid is bad fast, but he is a jerk on the track and he has pissed off almost everyone in Nationwide and Cup in the past few years.

You continue to mess with the same guy and someday, he's gonna get you.

So when a car gets into the crowd because of some stupid on track rivalry - what then? Seriously, if Keselowski's car had made it into the crowd would that still have been an acceptable move on Edwards' part? I just don't get it I'm afraid. In my old fasioned book, teaching a lesson would involve being faster than the other driver. What a quaint notion. I know I don't have to watch (and I don't generally, except the road races) but do you guys really think this is the way to go motor racing? It's so sad that a NASCAR drivers' skill set has to include bumping drivers out of the way. Anyone can do that. I'd rather finish second in fair fight that first by pushing my way to a win. Sportsmanship is not in the NASCAR vocabulary. How's that for a thread locker? - NASCAR want this kind of behaviour as it improves the 'show'. It's a soap opera every weekend. That's all it is.

[The instant classic]

What a wild finish. I was so hoping Juan Montoya would of won though.

Im glad Brad K is alright but what comes around goes around. He got his payback from flipping Carl last year at Talladega.

i agree
every week i see Keselowski wreck someone i always say he will learn, and maybe now he has learned

[call_me_andrew]

So when a car gets into the crowd because of some stupid on track rivalry - what then? Seriously, if Keselowski's car had made it into the crowd would that still have been an acceptable move on Edwards' part? I just don't get it I'm afraid. In my old fasioned book, teaching a lesson would involve being faster than the other driver. What a quaint notion. I know I don't have to watch (and I don't generally, except the road races) but do you guys really think this is the way to go motor racing? It's so sad that a NASCAR drivers' skill set has to include bumping drivers out of the way. Anyone can do that. I'd rather finish second in fair fight that first by pushing my way to a win. Sportsmanship is not in the NASCAR vocabulary. How's that for a thread locker? - NASCAR want this kind of behaviour as it improves the 'show'. It's a soap opera every weekend. That's all it is.

I'll agree that on track retaliation is wrong, but NASCAR has their way of keeping things "clean". NASCAR will just let the drivers hit each other all they want, while raising the catch fences and making the cars less prone to getting airborne. It's similar to the Star Trek episode "A Taste of Armageddon" in which to factions in a war no longer fight battles, but simulate battles via computer and then execute the "casualites". It takes all the emotional and physical trauma out of war so that it's no longer a thing to be avoided.

[harvick#1]

We already have a thread for this:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137269&page=2

That said, I agree with Scotty G :up:

And Gloomy day, it took me three looks at your post before I got it...
LMAO!!!!!! :rotflmao:

We don't usually lock threads in the Nascar Forum...feelings don't get hurt quite as easily here as in other racing series...

:beer:

because we dont have a moderator that checks the forums from time to time

[slorydn1]

because we dont have a moderator that checks the forums from time to time

Harv, c'mon....Cut him some slack, OK? If it was any other mod around here doing that I would agree 1000000% .....But he's been sick as a dog caught in post experimental hell for a long time now, on top of having periodic computer problems.

Heck...I'll be honest...even if I had the power to lock the thread, I wouldn't have. I made my feelings clear with my first post,then moved on.....

I had hoped others would have followed me back to the orginal thread (some did, some didn't)

[Scotty G.]

1. So when a car gets into the crowd because of some stupid on track rivalry - what then? Seriously, if Keselowski's car had made it into the crowd would that still have been an acceptable move on Edwards' part?

2. It's so sad that a NASCAR drivers' skill set has to include bumping drivers out of the way.


1. Not defending Edwards actions at all. He was wrong in this deal. He certainly wasn't intending to get BK into the catch fence. He was just trying to turn him and spin him into the infield. If he would have, the other 40 drivers in the race would have probably gotten out of their cars and applauded. ;)

Maybe in hindsight, he should have just waited until Bristol and punted him there. But I think the fact that BK was on his way (most likely) to a top 5 finish, helped make Carl's mind up for him.

Nobody wants to see cars get into the air and yes, it could have been a bad, bad deal for a lot of folks today. But the retaliation from Carl today, was very justified. BK had gotten Carl more then a few times the past few years and today, BK got his. The way things are done in NASCAR, that will probably be the end of this thing. Both have made their points and this dispute should end (for a while). No whining in the press or stomping down the pit lane to put on a show for the fans and pretend to fight. Take care of your business on the track and be done with it.


2. That "skill set" only applies at a few tracks. You touch in NASCAR at most places, and big wrecks happen (like today at the end of the race). Bumping and grinding has always been a part of stock car racing and always will. Its part of the reason (along with having drivers people care about) stock car racing is so popular.

[Lee Roy]

So when a car gets into the crowd because of some stupid on track rivalry - what then? Seriously, if Keselowski's car had made it into the crowd would that still have been an acceptable move on Edwards' part? I just don't get it I'm afraid. In my old fasioned book, teaching a lesson would involve being faster than the other driver. What a quaint notion. I know I don't have to watch (and I don't generally, except the road races) but do you guys really think this is the way to go motor racing? It's so sad that a NASCAR drivers' skill set has to include bumping drivers out of the way. Anyone can do that. I'd rather finish second in fair fight that first by pushing my way to a win. Sportsmanship is not in the NASCAR vocabulary. How's that for a thread locker? - NASCAR want this kind of behaviour as it improves the 'show'. It's a soap opera every weekend. That's all it is.

Boo hoo hoo

[71Fan]

If a car gets in to the crowd, it is the fault of the sanctioning body, and track ownership.

When you build tracks where 190 to 200mph is reachable, and then put an upside down airplane wing on the back of the cars, it follows that cars are going to get airborne.

As to Carl punting Brad.....Punts have been part and parcel of stock car racing since it's inception, as have paybacks. If you don't like it, I don't have a problem with that in and of itself. But please don't try to turn stock car racing in to a gentlemen's sport. It's not and never has been.

[PitMarshal]

The only thing I'm disgusted by is the fact that people are actually defending Edwards here. The guy is a jerk and in any other race series his license would have been ripped up long before now. The only thing Keslowski is guilty of is planting his wheels on the yellow line and then refusing to give way when someone else moves down on him. Obviously Edwards didn't expect him to go airborn but the fact remains that someone of his experience should know better than to turn someone around at 190mph+ Nascar need to come down on him and come down hard before someone gets killed or seriously injured.

[ShiftingGears]

What an idiot. NASCAR should come down on him hard.


http://www.gifanatics.com/files/InBeforeTheLock.gif

LOL

[ghostdancing]

OK, so I'm not a NASCAR fan, but I just caught the accident between Edwards and Keselowski. I have to say I'm totally disgusted by this kind of driving. It seems that this is acceptable in this branch of motor sport and I'm at a total loss to understand why. How long do we have to wait before a driver is killed, or even worse spectators? If this behavior is allowed to continue then I'm afraid it is just a matter of time. Making the excuse that one driver did this or that to justify wrecking another car is never acceptable.

What is equally worrying to me is that this crass driving is making its way down to the lower levels, and young kids starting out in, for example Legends cars start to believe that the front bumper is a substitute for talent.

This is one of the reasons why this series is 'entertainment' and not motor sport. Very Sad.

Hush, I think you will find Formula 1 has more guilt when it comes to spectators being hurt and killed. Watch a whole race, not just one talking point.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Weird. I thought the drivers settling themselves was the way to go. So now Carl does it, and he gets a trip to the wood shed. First off, Brad is obviously a jerk out there, although when it was just Denny Hamlin spinning him out, everyone had a big laugh about it. When one of the "good guys" goes postal and puts him on his lid, now all the sudden it is a BIG deal....

NASCAR loves this, because we are talking about it, and Bruton Smith loves it because it was a wild day at one his tracks. The only two guys not liking it are Keselowski and Edwards. I am sure Carl would rather be on the lead lap, and not in the NASCAR hauler for for putting Brad on his lid. Should have waited for Bristol or Martinsville Carl. 190mph is too fast to be spinning people out.....

NASCAR wanted guys to settle stuff on their own. Said, "We will let the drivers settle it". Well that lasted...what..4 races? It cannot be done because like hockey fights or beaning batters in baseball, it escalates and to a point that is fine, but we had a 3400 lb. race car going a good clip into the fence. NASCAR's lawyers and insurance types probably all clutched their hearts when they saw that....

I dunno. I am torn....I think Brad is a good driver who just knows how to tick guys off, but I figure Carl isn't known for dumping guys in retaliation. That said, Carl's act has worn thin, and he should have come right out and said "Damn right I dumped him, and while I didn't like him hitting the fence like that, this punk has had everyone ticked off. Now NASCAR, put your money where your mouth is...we settled it ON the track."

The sad reality is, NASCAR cant let them always settle it ...because one day a settling of accounts will end up with a fatality in the stands or in the car. Carl just proved that a hot head will not use judgement. Doing this at Atlanta was just stupid.....

[ghostdancing]

The payback was always on the cards, the bad blood is there for all to watch. But not when your 100 laps down, and not when the other guy is in 4th.

The timing was bad, the result was bad, and Edwards knew it.

It's not over, I just hope they don't involve an Earnhardt or a Johnson in their silly lovers tiff, then NASCAR will be upset.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Oh, and for those people who dislike NASCAR because of stuff like this, it is a) the exception, and b) stock car racing. No room for wimps out there...on occasion people are going to lean on each other. Last I looked, that is why the cars have fenders!

[Mark in Oshawa]

The payback was always on the cards, the bad blood is there for all to watch. But not when your 100 laps down, and not when the other guy is in 4th.

The timing was bad, the result was bad, and Edwards knew it.

It's not over, I just hope they don't involve an Earnhardt or a Johnson in their silly lovers tiff, then NASCAR will be upset.

Edwards paid him back because he had nothing to lose, and he blamed Brad for being those 100 odd laps down. I get why he wanted revenge...totally get that. I would rather meet him the garage later and lay him out with a right cross....but of course, NASCAR woudln't like that either.

You say they better not get Earnhardt or Johnson in there? NASCAR is upset now....if Brad had taken out anyone else when is car went sideways, you can bet Carl would have more than NASCAR to worry about.

[ghostdancing]

Edwards paid him back because he had nothing to lose, and he blamed Brad for being those 100 odd laps down. I get why he wanted revenge...totally get that. I would rather meet him the garage later and lay him out with a right cross....but of course, NASCAR woudln't like that either.

You say they better not get Earnhardt or Johnson in there? NASCAR is upset now....if Brad had taken out anyone else when is car went sideways, you can bet Carl would have more than NASCAR to worry about.

Aplogies Mark, I keep forgetting the differences in the way we all come across on the board. Being English is was being ironic, which as a fine Canadian you might not have picked up on. You right though, wish these issues were sorted in the garage not the track.

[Alexamateo]

The only thing I'm disgusted by is the fact that people are actually defending Edwards here. The guy is a jerk and in any other race series his license would have been ripped up long before now. The only thing Keslowski is guilty of is planting his wheels on the yellow line and then refusing to give way when someone else moves down on him. Obviously Edwards didn't expect him to go airborn but the fact remains that someone of his experience should know better than to turn someone around at 190mph+ Nascar need to come down on him and come down hard before someone gets killed or seriously injured.

Yes, it's a shame he didn't conduct himself with the grace and class of a 7 time F1 champion.

Oh wait......

Nevermind :D

[Alexamateo]

Edwards paid him back because he had nothing to lose, and he blamed Brad for being those 100 odd laps down. I get why he wanted revenge...totally get that. I would rather meet him the garage later and lay him out with a right cross....but of course, NASCAR woudln't like that either.

You say they better not get Earnhardt or Johnson in there? NASCAR is upset now....if Brad had taken out anyone else when is car went sideways, you can bet Carl would have more than NASCAR to worry about.

This goes back to last year. Brad wrecked Carl out of the lead in the Nationwide race in Memphis in addition to his other more publicized run-ins with other drivers. Talladega actually has very little to do with it as that was caused by Nascar rules. (Regan Smith was penalized out of a win because he chose not to wreck Stewart the previous fall, so no one was going to give an inch after that.)

[truefan72]

I like edwards, but he should get a severe penalty in the likes of a 3 race ban for his actions. They could have killed Brad K. And they were deliberate. I'm telling you if Brad K was seriously hurt and with edwards statements, he would be looking at more than race sanctions. It could have gotten into a court of law.

[Alexamateo]

From Carl Edwards' Facebook Page:


Carl Edwards My options: Considering that Brad wrecks me with no regard for anyones safety or hard work, should I: A-Keep letting him wreck me? B-Confront him after the race? C-Wait til bristol and collect other cars? or D-Take care of it now? I want to be clear that I was surprised at his flight and very relieved when he walked away. Every person has to decide what code they want to live by and hopefully this explains mine.

Actually, his attitude is not that different than Bobby Allison's was back in the day.

[rabf1]

I didn't like it one bit because I really felt like JPM was going to catch the #2 car.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This goes back to last year. Brad wrecked Carl out of the lead in the Nationwide race in Memphis in addition to his other more publicized run-ins with other drivers. Talladega actually has very little to do with it as that was caused by Nascar rules. (Regan Smith was penalized out of a win because he chose not to wreck Stewart the previous fall, so no one was going to give an inch after that.)

Listen, I don't doubt Carl has ample reason to dislike Brad, and why. Most of the garage has had issues with Brad's take no prisoners attitude. That said, Carl picked the wrong place to do it and a damned dangerous place. That said, if NASCAR comes down really hard on Carl, they are really just punishing him for something that they refused to do. They said "we will let the drivers police themselves" and let Brad push people all over the race track most of last year. Never once was Brad called into the trailer and disciplined. Maybe he was talked to, but that was about it. He just kept dumping people this year I guess, so why is anyone surprised when the stakes multilply and Carl does what he does? I think they should step in, but they said they WOULDN'T and they HAVEN'T. Either they should step in at any time they see someone get someone into the fence, or never step in...or maybe use their brains like they used to and step in before we have a driver put another in the fence at one of the fastest tracks in NASCAR?

This letting drivers settle their own hash is like hockey fans complaining about the level of danger in a hockey fight and then cheering like mad when there is a fight......tad hypocrtical.

[Oli_M]

Absolutely nothing wrong with what Carl did.

Brad's done it many many times and never been penalised.

I don't see a problem here. NASCAR have GOT to be consistent, and that means parking Carl for the rest of the race should be the end of his punishment, just as they've taken no further action in many similar situations in the past.

[Easy Drifter]

All I will say is the title of the thread should be changed.
That was NO Accident.
That was deliberate payback that got way out of hand.

[NickFalzone]

I like hard racing, bumping and banging to the finish. But what crosses the line for me is when a driver is many laps down, clearly not racing for anything but a few spots up from 43rd, goes out and crashes another driver (running in the top 5) deliberately. Not only tries to crash once, but tries to do so the lap prior, doesn't get it done, then the following lap literally turns right into him in order to cause a big wreck. To me, what Brad has done in the past, is simply VERY aggressive RACING. He generally is trying to squeeze into a spot that is a longshot to get into. So he sometimes causes wrecks that way. That early wreck at AMS between the 2 is completely debatable as to whose fault it even was, I actually think it was Carl's. And what Carl did as "payback" is NOT racing, it's purely using his car as a weapon to crash out someone he's pissed off at. There are ways that Carl couldn't have handled this, aggressively, without resorting to what he did at AMS. Hopefully NASCAR can see that as well.

[wedge]

Absolutely nothing wrong with what Carl did.

Brad's done it many many times and never been penalised.

I don't see a problem here. NASCAR have GOT to be consistent, and that means parking Carl for the rest of the race should be the end of his punishment, just as they've taken no further action in many similar situations in the past.

Agreed

What Edwards' intention did was to rub him. There was a slight tap and it unfortunately a huge wreck.

There's been worse, eg Gilliland ramming straight into JPM at Texas and JPM punting Kyle Busch at New Hampshire were far more disgraceful.

[NickFalzone]

Agreed

What Edwards' intention did was to rub him. There was a slight tap and it unfortunately a huge wreck.

There's been worse, eg Gilliland ramming straight into JPM at Texas and JPM punting Kyle Busch at New Hampshire were far more disgraceful.

No... his intention was to wreck him, and he pretty much confirmed as such in his interview and in comments he supposedly made to Pemberton in the hauler. He rubbed him on the previous lap, but that wasn't enough. Only thing he apologized for/didn't expect is for Brad to flip over and into the fence, the crash was part of "payback" that Brad was supposedly due.

[harvick#1]

Nascar said they are gonna let the drivers police themselves.

as Denyy Hamlin has said, there a plenty of drivers wanting payback on Brad K., Edwards was just the next in line.

I'm in no way saying that what Carl did was ok, but thanks to that rear wing, its what caused the car again to flip, if it was a rear spoiler, Brad would've have his rearend wrecked

Karma will always come back around and Brad K has to face the reality is that you piss off and wreck enough people, they are gonna do the same for you.

Welcome to the Cup Series Brad

[TURN3]

All of you people saying there isn't anything wrong with what Carl did seem to be neglecting the fact that car could've ended up in the stands. Look around the media world and see what types of people are saying what...(i.e. Jimmy Vasser for example). For those of you that think there was nothing wrong, ask yourself what type of person you are as compared to the clase and educated folk that see the reality. There isn't anything wrong with retaliation or teaching BK is bones but...not when lives are endagered...and especially innocent ones. You want to be a man? Go whip his a$$!! If I had a family member in the stands in Atlanta I'd be whipping Carl's a$$ myself just for the sake of what could've been.

[nigelred5]

NACAR got exactly what they want and what they said they were going to allow before the season ever started. That kind of driving is as old as NASCAR itself, and is exactly what many NASCAR fans have said has been lacking for a few year now. Any NASCAR "reprimand" for on-track behavior is a joke. They don't like cheaters when it comes to the equipment and they have never really tolerated physical altercations in the paddock, but taking it out on the track HAS always been accepted to a large extent. No one wants to flip anyone, but the old sayin rubbin is racin has always been an understatement. Most drivers use a little more common sense when doing it.

It's idiotic, dangerous and rediculous, but that's NASCAR. Don't watch it if you don't have the stomach.

[youtellme]

Open the links to see what BradO has done

http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/blog/from_the_marbles/post/Did-Keselowski-deserve-Edwards-payback-A-video?urn=nascar,226627

[71Fan]

The payback was always on the cards, the bad blood is there for all to watch. But not when your 100 laps down, and not when the other guy is in 4th.

The timing was bad, the result was bad, and Edwards knew it.

It's not over, I just hope they don't involve an Earnhardt or a Johnson in their silly lovers tiff, then NASCAR will be upset.

Wowzer....I think the timing was perfect. Carl had nothing to lose. I mean ya sure wouldn't do that as you were lapping a guy coming to the checkers would ya?

[71Fan]

You do all realize that in the early days of NASCAR, it is rumored that Big Bill actually paid people to crash out don't you?

[Hoss Ghoul]

Nascar said they are gonna let the drivers police themselves.

The most pathetic argument regarding this incident, repeated ad nauseum as though by mindless drones.

Part of that "policing" is the policing of ones self and ones own actions, for instance knowing when and when not to do said "policing"/payback on others.

NASCAR didn't say go try to kill each other, they said go race hard.

If people can't see the difference between the two they are as dumb as Edwards.

[call_me_andrew]

NASCAR said they were going to "take the gloves off" which I think just means not fining drivers $20,000 for using the word **** on television.


My options: Considering that Brad wrecks me with no regard for anyones safety or hard work, should I: A-Keep letting him wreck me? B-Confront him after the race? C-Wait til bristol and collect other cars? or D-Take care of it now? I want to be clear that I was surprised at his flight and very relieved when he walked away. Every person has to decide what code they want to live by and hopefully this explains mine.

The answer is B, dumbass!

[NickFalzone]

The most pathetic argument regarding this incident, repeated ad nauseum as though by mindless drones.

Part of that "policing" is the policing of ones self and ones own actions, for instance knowing when and when not to do said "policing"/payback on others.

NASCAR didn't say go try to kill each other, they said go race hard.

If people can't see the difference between the two they are as dumb as Edwards.

so true. who in their right mind thinks that when NASCAR said "police yourselves" they mean "it's OK to be 100 laps down and go out and find and wreck another driver". No one interpreted the rule that way, not Edwards, not Kez, not anyone. If you think Edwards did that thinking "yeah NASCAR will let me off because they said we can police ourselves" you've got to be kidding.

[71Fan]

Shucks, I saw a guy at the Vegas Bullring re-fire his car after being shoved in to the wall, and go straight across the infield to T-bone the guy that put him there. Best dang on-track payback I've ever seen

[Easy Drifter]

Not the best time or place to do it.
But as pointed out previously the wing was a big part of it and something NASCAR should have thought of when they introduced wings. That has happened in many other series when a car goes backwards at high speed for any length of time. It could happen in any spin.
Putting people into, or over, the wall has been part of taxi cab racing since it started.
Being a little more circumspect might have been wise though!

[call_me_andrew]

Excellent point Easy Drifter. No spoiler-bound stock car has ever become airborne.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The most pathetic argument regarding this incident, repeated ad nauseum as though by mindless drones.

Part of that "policing" is the policing of ones self and ones own actions, for instance knowing when and when not to do said "policing"/payback on others.

NASCAR didn't say go try to kill each other, they said go race hard.

If people can't see the difference between the two they are as dumb as Edwards.

I don't disagree Hoss, but the point is, Carl can look them right in the eye and tell them he was policing Brad.....what can they say? We both know it was bone headed, but drivers ARE Boneheads.....

The visor goes down, the brain shuts off.....which is why every sanctioning body cannot let the drivers "police themselves".......

NASCAR opened up this can of worms when they stated that, and now you have one of the more intelligent drivers thinking it was ok to put a guy into the fence on the dog leg of Atlanta when he is 150laps down. If he was on the lead lap it would have been wrong, but Carl of all people to do that after his Talladega ride just shows you how dopey race drivers can be when they think they are right.

NASCAR looks stupid on this one, and they brought it on themselves.

Brad is a punk, but he comes out golden on this one.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Excellent point Easy Drifter. No spoiler-bound stock car has ever become airborne.

Really? ASK Richard Petty that after his wild ride at Daytona one July. Ask Tony Stewart in 01 in the 500. This myth that the wing is the only way these guys come off the ground is conveniently forgetting why we have plates on the cars at Dega and Daytona. Enough airspeed will turn any race car into one GIANT wing, spoiler or not. Now, I do agree, it seems the Wing helps get that back end up easier, but I am sure NASCAR has had cars pointing every which way in wind tunnels on and off and knows for sure how much extra lift that wing may or may not cause.

They are going to the spoiler mainly to help the drivers see out their back windows and give the car more feel again. At least that is what they are saying....

[slorydn1]

Excellent point Easy Drifter. No spoiler-bound stock car has ever become airborne.

Mark beat me to T-Stew in the 01 Daytona 500...

Lets see, there's Johnny Sauter at Talladega in the Nationwide race in 2002.....

How about Elliot Sadler in the Cup race at Talladega....Twice...in successive years.

How about Kyle Busch at 'Dega in a Nationwide race a few years ago....

And there's Matt Kenseth at 'Dega in the Nationwide race last year....

Dale Earnhardt Jr in the Nationwide race at Daytona THIS YEAR....(I'll give everyone a free pass on this one; by the time this wreck occurred everyone was too busy ooohin and ahhhing over all the Danica interviews 20 minutes after she crashed out of the race to notice that this occurred).


A few years back at Daytona the Camping World trucks were doing it with such frightening regularity at Daytona (something like 5 in the same race, I "think" it was 2005ish) that it eventually lead to the dreaded tapered spacer....

And lets not forget the granddaddy off them all, The 1987 wreck of Bobby Allison at Talladega which is THE reason the cars are saddled with those damn restrictor plates in the first place (Nascar tried a 390 CFM Carb first, but the cars were still "too fast" (whiny voice)......

The spoiler is not the be all and end all. BUT, the spoiler should increase the V2 speed (aviation term for take off speed) over what it is for the wing. And maybe NASCAR should look into adding the aero aids it intro'd at Daytona this year for ALL the races instead of just the plate races (the bigger, longer shark fin). It may be ugly, but according to NASCAR it added about 7 mph to the V2 speed, allowing them to utilize the larger plate). They may need to look into adding another roof flap, or even flaps on the trunk lid and/or rear fenders similiar to the ones they added to the front of the car several years ago. They have to find a way to plant these cars when the go backwards, just have to.

[Lee Roy]

Excellent point Easy Drifter. No spoiler-bound stock car has ever become airborne.

It hasn't?? Bobby Allison might differ with you.

[Superkarter]

NASCAR isn't fooling anyone. They are loving this. This "scandal" is NASCAR's version of Tonya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan which boosted women's skating from a long slump. People will actually start watching NASCAR again. For awhile............. Until Digger and the COTs drive them away again.

The only thing about this that scares NASCAR is the potential for injured fans in the stands. But even if that happened, they could always send out Bruton Smith's preacher to talk the families out of suing :)

[Alexamateo]

Mark beat me to T-Stew in the 01 Daytona 500...

Lets see, there's Johnny Sauter at Talladega in the Nationwide race in 2002.....

How about Elliot Sadler in the Cup race at Talladega....Twice...in successive years.

How about Kyle Busch at 'Dega in a Nationwide race a few years ago....

And there's Matt Kenseth at 'Dega in the Nationwide race last year....

Dale Earnhardt Jr in the Nationwide race at Daytona THIS YEAR....

Some of these (Dale Earnhardt for example) were not aero related. Jr. was turned and the tires dug in and the car physically rolled over and started tumbling. I don't believe Petty's was aero related either so there are really two classes of accidents where the car goes airborn.

[Lee Roy]

Some of these (Dale Earnhardt for example) were not aero related. Jr. was turned and the tires dug in and the car physically rolled over and started tumbling. I don't believe Petty's was aero related either so there are really two classes of accidents where the car goes airborn.

Al, there's an old saying. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

[POS_Maggott]

Excellent point Easy Drifter. No spoiler-bound stock car has ever become airborne.

I'm going to say there was a bit more sarcasm here than most of you are noticing :P

[Lee Roy]

I'm going to say there was a bit more sarcasm here than most of you are noticing :P

Probably. I find C_M_A to usually be pretty spot-on with whatever he says. There just wasn't one of those winky things.

[MD24]

http://www.nascar.com/2010/news/headlines/cup/03/09/cedwards.probation.bkeselowski/index.html

[71Fan]

Yup...probation...and oh yea, they're going to look in to why the car took off. It ain't rocket science...the wing gives it a little lift and the underpan flies if off in to space. Duh.

So what's going to be the fix....more restrictor plates. NASCAR loves restrictor plates....sigh....

[slorydn1]

Some of these (Dale Earnhardt for example) were not aero related. Jr. was turned and the tires dug in and the car physically rolled over and started tumbling. I don't believe Petty's was aero related either so there are really two classes of accidents where the car goes airborn.

Petty's was not, that's why I left it off the list. Sauter was involved in the 27 car "big one", and didn't go airborne until he was hit by several cars, but went airborne once the rear end faced the wind. In both of Sadlers wrecks, he didn't go airborne until the rear faced the wind (espesially the second one right at the end of the race when he spun around back wards, took off, and landed on his roof then flipped back over onto his wheels at the finish line).

Kyle busch in the 5 car at dega was the same deal, tunred around backwards and took off...

kenseth's could have been 50/50 digging in the grass....looked to me like he was starting to take flight before he got there but ill give you that one.

Jr was airborne before he ever hit the wall, didn't leave the paved area until he had already landed again and was going slow enough to not take off a second time.

I also left off Michael Waltrip at Daytona, and Ryan Newman at Daytona, both dug into the grass and barrel rolled.

I forgot to add Ricky Rudd in the 1984 Busch Clash. He flew for 100 yds before he landed in the grass and started his barrel rolls.....

[Alexamateo]

Thanks for the list slo, I wasn't familiar with all of the individual instances. I will disagree on the Jr crash, I went back and looked. I saw a car turned to the right and roll over with it's left wheels still on the ground who then slid a good bit of distance on his roof. I was just saying that all flips are not aero related and you basically agree.

[Alexamateo]

Back to Carl Edwards. While I wasn't expected him to be suspended, I did expect a fine and loss of points. A three race probation is just a slap on the wrist. His only real penalty was being parked which only cost him one position and 3 points. The only poetic justice would be for Carl to miss the chase by 3 points or less.

[spiritone]

WOW!! Does this mean that if someone was to die the penalty would be 6 race probation.

Nascar your a joke.

[jeffmr2]

3 race probation is practically giving approval to what Carl done,what a disgracefull decision by nascar.

[DazzlaF1]

3 race probation is practically giving approval to what Carl done,what a disgracefull decision by nascar.

Strange decision, he's admitted taking him out as an act of revenge, surely that warrants at least a one race ban

[NickFalzone]

Strange decision, he's admitted taking him out as an act of revenge, surely that warrants at least a one race ban

My thought as well. By admitting that his intention was to wreck Brad, he deserved at least a single-race suspension (thought I'd have voted for 2 or 3). Intentional wrecks happen fairly often, but usually they are hidden well enough by the drivers that no one can be liable one way or the other, and they certainly don't admit to it later. But in this instance, Carl admitted intentionally wrecked him, and Brad or someone in the stands could VERY easily have gotten significantly injured. How can NASCAR say that is just par for the course? I know that on the one hand, they do NOT want to set a precedent that drivers can get suspended any time they MIGHT have intentionally wrecked someone. But when it's black and white, I think they need to say that's uncalled for, and deserves a significant penalty. I appreciated Carl's honesty, and I also think that he was very honest about it because he KNEW that they would not penalize him all that much for it.

[DanicaFan]

3 race probation is practically giving approval to what Carl done,what a disgracefull decision by nascar.

No matter what the penalty was that NASCAR handed down, they would get scrutinized for it. If it had been much harsher, people would of said it was too much, now that its fairly light, people say not hard enough. NASCAR could not win in this decision no matter what.

The thing that gets me is, had the car not went airborn, nothing else would of been said or done by NASCAR or the fans and all this discussion would not have happened.

I dont like Brad K. Im glad he was fine but maybe he will show some respect for the better and more seasoned drivers out there.

[Mark in Oshawa]

No matter what the penalty was that NASCAR handed down, they would get scrutinized for it. If it had been much harsher, people would of said it was too much, now that its fairly light, people say not hard enough. NASCAR could not win in this decision no matter what.

The thing that gets me is, had the car not went airborn, nothing else would of been said or done by NASCAR or the fans and all this discussion would not have happened.

I dont like Brad K. Im glad he was fine but maybe he will show some respect for the better and more seasoned drivers out there.

You really think there would have been critcism if they sat him down a race or three? Maybe The Duck people, Jack Roush and a few Edward's fans.

That would be it. I would given him a race off...and wake people up BUT NASCAR said they had no interest in governing drivers settling things on the track. This is the end result so they cannot now slap Carl hard. I figured this would be the result, a relative slap on the wrist. I would have given him a points penalty ( the amount of points Brad would have gotten for his 5th place at the time subtracted FROM Carl) AND a race off. This isn't the first really obvious case of someone putting someone into the fence on purpose but at Atlanta, it is just BAD news.....you cannot be doing that with cars doing 195mph in the dog leg. Carl knew better, and did it anyhow, not thinking Brad would be on his roof....but that is why NASCAR saying "We will let drivers settle things" is so retarded. Drivers over react in the heat of battle and do stupid things. If Brad's car made it through the fence...well we are talking manslaughter aren't we? Bet the law wouldn't be talking probation...

[harvick#1]

3 race probation is practically giving approval to what Carl done,what a disgracefull decision by nascar.


why???? for all what Brad K has done to competitors, hows he a innocent victim in all this?

Brad K should've been parked along time again for all the crap he pulled last year, he got his justice, and I guarantee you that hes gonna race Carl and Denny ALOT more cleaner now because he knows what gonna happen if he wrecks them again

[DazzlaF1]

You really think there would have been critcism if they sat him down a race or three? Maybe The Duck people, Jack Roush and a few Edward's fans.

That would be it. I would given him a race off...and wake people up BUT NASCAR said they had no interest in governing drivers settling things on the track. This is the end result so they cannot now slap Carl hard. I figured this would be the result, a relative slap on the wrist. I would have given him a points penalty ( the amount of points Brad would have gotten for his 5th place at the time subtracted FROM Carl) AND a race off. This isn't the first really obvious case of someone putting someone into the fence on purpose but at Atlanta, it is just BAD news.....you cannot be doing that with cars doing 195mph in the dog leg. Carl knew better, and did it anyhow, not thinking Brad would be on his roof....but that is why NASCAR saying "We will let drivers settle things" is so retarded. Drivers over react in the heat of battle and do stupid things. If Brad's car made it through the fence...well we are talking manslaughter aren't we? Bet the law wouldn't be talking probation...
Policing the sport, isnt that what these governing bodies (including NASCAR) are there for. Whats the point of making rules when you are not going to enforce them?

If you want to make a statement of intent, you've got to come down hard on them to act as a deterrent to others.

If it were me, i'd have given a fine of whatever prize money Keselowski would have won for where he was at the time (which i think would have been around $125'000), a 100 point penalty and a 2 race ban.

[mgreb]

In nascar, safety is secondary to the show. Remember years back when Nascar drivers were getting killed on the track on a regular basis? Nascar didn't really do anything until a superstar, Dale Earnheart got killed. If Edwards intentionally wrecking a competitor isn't enough for an immediate suspension, I don't know what is.

[jeffmr2]

why???? for all what Brad K has done to competitors, hows he a innocent victim in all this?

Brad K should've been parked along time again for all the crap he pulled last year, he got his justice, and I guarantee you that hes gonna race Carl and Denny ALOT more cleaner now because he knows what gonna happen if he wrecks them again

But all Keselowski has done is raced hard,sure he's made some mistakes and a few enemies but havent all the drivers.I wouldnt say he's intentionally wrecked anyone.Isnt the way he drives the good ol racing style people yearn for? Edwards returned to the track primarily to wreck Keselowski,i even wondered if such a pre-meditated action would and should end up in the High Court,after all he used his car as a weapon.

What happens when we get to texas after the next 3 short track races,is it going to be a free for all wreckfest with all the drivers serving thier justice?

I'm curious how much media attention did this get in the USA,wonder if it will give a ratings boost for the next few races.

[NickFalzone]

I am certainly no supporter of Mayfield getting back on the track, but in many ways what he did is LESS egregious than what Carl did. Mayfield possibly went into a race on some uppers (meth or derivative) which is certainly very poor judgement, but to me that is less offensive than actually going through some significant effort to wreck another driver.

And yes, there is a difference between what Brad has done to other drivers, and what he had done to him. Like others said, he's very aggressive and will pull out all stops to get ahead or win. But to me, that's racing. Cheap in some circumstances, but racing nonetheless. What Carl did is simply not racing, being 150 laps down, etc. it was purely getting revenge on the track, Racing was not part of it.

[Riley]

DanicaFan "The thing that gets me is, had the car not went airborn, nothing else would of been said or done by NASCAR or the fans and all this discussion would not have happened."


I sometimes just have to shake my head when I read things like this. The whole point of this thread was to encourage discussion on this type of driving and the potential disaster that could be round the corner. The car did get airborn, and did head towards the fence. I hope it's not just a matter of time before a car gets into the crowd (NASCAR or any form of racing). It's this disgraceful type of driving that makes it more likely in a NASCAR sactioned event. Anyone who thinks that pushing another driver into a spin at 190mph is OK has no right then to be horrified should the un-thinkable happen.

As some of you may know, in 1955 at Le Mans there was a terrible accident in which a car crashed into the crowd killing 80 and injuring 100 more. It doesn't bear thinking about the consequences of a NASCAR ploughing its way through a fence and into a packed grandstand.

Had Keselowski's car made it into the crowd, do you think Edwards would be facing a three race probation? More than likely in these litigious time he would be facing manslaughter charges, Atlanta Motor Speedway would be in trouble and NASCAR as a sactioning body that has openly endorsed this type of driving could cease to exist as we know it today.

[TURN3]

DanicaFan "The thing that gets me is, had the car not went airborn, nothing else would of been said or done by NASCAR or the fans and all this discussion would not have happened."


I sometimes just have to shake my head when I read things like this. The whole point of this thread was to encourage discussion on this type of driving and the potential disaster that could be round the corner. The car did get airborn, and did head towards the fence. I hope it's not just a matter of time before a car gets into the crowd (NASCAR or any form of racing). It's this disgraceful type of driving that makes it more likely in a NASCAR sactioned event. Anyone who thinks that pushing another driver into a spin at 190mph is OK has no right then to be horrified should the un-thinkable happen.

As some of you may know, in 1955 at Le Mans there was a terrible accident in which a car crashed into the crowd killing 80 and injuring 100 more. It doesn't bear thinking about the consequences of a NASCAR ploughing its way through a fence and into a packed grandstand.

Had Keselowski's car made it into the crowd, do you think Edwards would be facing a three race probation? More than likely in these litigious time he would be facing manslaughter charges, Atlanta Motor Speedway would be in trouble and NASCAR as a sactioning body that has openly endorsed this type of driving could cease to exist as we know it today.


Well said, you and numerous others here obviously get the real issues here. You've specifically quoted somebody that has proven to all of us he doesn't have any clue of reality whatsoever so take that into account. As for the rest of the people on this forum that think justice has been served or whatever, well...make sure to tie down the trailers tonight. I hear there are some severe thunderstorms heading East.

[harvick#1]

on a oval track, the odds of a car flying into the stands is about .001%

there have been quite a bit of scary wrecks, but have only made up to half way of the catch fence.

in a professional racing series, when was the last time a car flipped off the track??? Lemans in 99 with Mercedes, but there were no catch fences on that part of the Mulsanne Straight, plus the hill was alot higher back then.

Edwards crash at Dega was more scary last year than Brads was as he actually made it about half way but that was only because he got a higher lift from Ryan Newmans car.

there is a reason those fences are about 20-25 feet high. its for the fans safety.

[harvick#1]

As some of you may know, in 1955 at Le Mans there was a terrible accident in which a car crashed into the crowd killing 80 and injuring 100 more. It doesn't bear thinking about the consequences of a NASCAR ploughing its way through a fence and into a packed grandstand.



and how many people have been injured or killed as being a spectator in rallying events???? people are gonna go if they feel they want to go or guard rails


2010 safety fences are alot better than what was from 1955 which was a standard chain-link fence you see around buildings

[Riley]

on a oval track, the odds of a car flying into the stands is about .001%

there have been quite a bit of scary wrecks, but have only made up to half way of the catch fence.

in a professional racing series, when was the last time a car flipped off the track??? Lemans in 99 with Mercedes, but there were no catch fences on that part of the Mulsanne Straight, plus the hill was alot higher back then.

Edwards crash at Dega was more scary last year than Brads was as he actually made it about half way but that was only because he got a higher lift from Ryan Newmans car.

there is a reason those fences are about 20-25 feet high. its for the fans safety.

How on earth do you come up with 0.001%? Before you edited your first line you said that there's more chance of winning the lottery. Perhaps you changed it because of course people do win the lottery.

Are you saying that you don't think there is a problem?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdzom_3tqUQ&feature=related
Some will use this to justify the safety measures in place, others like me will say we dodged a bullet. Scary stuff. "we'll carry on like this untill someone gets killed" - Carl Edwards of all people.. I fear this may be true. Yes I know it hasn't happened for a while (although there are numerous videos on youtube of race cars ending up the 'other side' of the wall) but that doesn't mean it won't ever happen. My main gripe is that this type of driving seems to be accepted by the governing body as well as the fans. I'm not looking to argue, as it's a fact that this type of accident is happening. It adds nothing to the 'show' unless you get your kicks from racing with these stupid vendetta's. A few years back we had an alarming number of LMP cars taking off. Regulation changes have helped that situation, but the drivers don't go ramming into each other at these kind speeds either.

It's worth noting that there is middle ground between a car not getting into the crowd and one that does. A 190mph coil spring is going to leave a mark if it hits you. Is it acceptable to have the odd minor injury? A cut or a bruise? Perhaps a broken limb would be just about ok as well? I'm playing devils advocate I know, because motor racing is dangerous and that is part of the appeal. Most true racing fans don't go to an event to see a wreck, I don't think the same can be said for NASCAR. Not that there's anything wrong with that per se, but there is when a childish driver feud could involve spectators. Edwards should have banned for 6 + races. Why would you not push your rival out of the way if you've only got to stay clean for three races. A dangerous pecedence.

[Riley]

and how many people have been injured or killed as being a spectator in rallying events???? people are gonna go if they feel they want to go or guard rails


2010 safety fences are alot better than what was from 1955 which was a standard chain-link fence you see around buildings

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. I do aplogise if English is not your first language. Perhaps that should be aplogize!

Of course people have been killed watching all sorts of racing. I'll say it again - it is the policy of allowing NASCAR drivers to settle personal differences on track that grates with me. Any more and I'll just be repeating myself.

[call_me_andrew]

I'm going to say there was a bit more sarcasm here than most of you are noticing :P

Yes, that was sarcasm. In retrospect a wink would have been a good idea (not sarcasm).

Here's my theory: in reverse, a spoiler would create an area of low pressure over the decklid that makes the car more vulnerable to going airborne than the wing.

[Easy Drifter]

Riley I am basically a road racer type.
I concur that the payback at those speeds was stupid.
But rubbin', trading paint or framin' and bamin' have always been part of the stock car culture.
It starts in the bull rings where it is impossible to avoid. It has also been part of NASCAR since day one.
It will continue. I just hope the all drivers woke up after last Sunday and will use their heads as to when and where payback occurs.
Oh and I have driven a stocker on dirt.

[ArrowsFA1]

Had Keselowski's car made it into the crowd, do you think Edwards would be facing a three race probation? More than likely in these litigious time he would be facing manslaughter charges, Atlanta Motor Speedway would be in trouble and NASCAR as a sactioning body that has openly endorsed this type of driving could cease to exist as we know it today.
Were any of NASCAR, Talledega, Edwards or Keselowski the subject of legal action after the #99 car hit the fence last year?

[71Fan]

Shucks, I grew up at Riverside....considered to be one of the premier circuits or it's time....I watched almost every kind of car built at the time race there. From karts to Ferrari's to Formula whatever to stock production to the big ol stockers that NASCAR brought to town twice a year. Double shucks, Dan Gurney's grandparents lived down the street and you could hear him tuning his cars in their garage.

But I also enjoyed the short track action at Orange Show Speedway in San Bernardino, and the dirt track over in Corona. And the Southern California Speedway circuit raced San Berdoo also. I also saw Tom Sneva set a track record 207mph at Ontario. And, I had a girlfriend who set a land speed record at Bonneville. Not to mention getting to watch The Terrible's Town 250 Best In The Desert off-road race for the last four years out here in Pahrump, Nevada, or getting to watch Kurt, Kyle, and Brendan hone their skills at The Bullring down in Vegas when I lived there.

So it's not like I'm not aware of the different types and styles of racing.

With that said and at the risk of repeating myself, stock car racing is not Grand Prix. It never has been and never will be. It's not F1, club production, Formula Whatever, or open wheel. Stock car racing is a get down, get dirty form of motor sports born of the recklessness and invincibility of returning World War II Veterans with no real way of making a living (which also gave rise to America's motorcycle clubs and gangs), and moonshiners who also were convinced they were superhuman on mostly 1/4 to 1/2 mile dirt tracks of the American south.

And what grew out of those short tracks was a "Bump ya once, bump ya twice, move ya out of the way" style of racing that still pervades at (I would guess) well over a thousand tracks all across the American continent today.

A style that simply is not possible in most other forms of auto racing. Tangle wheels in open wheel stuff and you're out of the race too. Bump a glass bodied formula car, you crush your front end (not to mention your legs) and your chances of winning are doomed. So, no bumping is pretty much the norm, and in my opinion the main reason open wheel series have never been truly accepted here. Along with the too-tiny rolling billboard that American sponsors desire and that gives fans an easy visual to focus on.

So with all that said, I think that for the most part Americans do not desire "gentlemen" drivers, or races that require a gentleman driver skill set. I've heard it said that Americans are a peaceful, loving, and patient people but at the end of their patience is a fuse connected to a very big bomb. The "payback" factor. We....or at least I.....love the payback factor. And instant payback is my favorite kind.

So no, I will not condemn Carl for what he did. As a matter of fact I encourage it. And, I'll be heading to my local 1/4 mile dirt track this Saturday to watch the beating, banging, and payback that is American auto racing.

Will I expect this style at an open wheel race, or while watching F1 on television. Nope, sure won't. I will appreciate it for what it is. Just as I appreciate stock car, motorcycle, off-road, and club racing for what it is. Oh yea, forgot to mention we;ve got a club road course out here in this small desert town also. I mean dang, the main reason I bother watching the Daytona 500 at all is the Demolition Derby factor. Restrictor Plate racing is not racing at all in my opinion. But, I've found a way to enjoy it for what it is.

So why have I bothered to type out this long-winded semi-diatribe? To offer one simple suggestion. Enjoy it for what it is. And if you can't, find another form of motor racing that more suits your wants and needs. NASCAR, and most other American stock car racing series are not going to change. The beating, the banging, and the payback is here to stay.

As always, your opinions and mileage may vary. : - )

[Lee Roy]

Here's my theory: in reverse, a spoiler would create an area of low pressure over the decklid that makes the car more vulnerable to going airborne than the wing.

I've always thought that a solution would be if the spoiler was hinged so that in the instance of a car getting backwards, the spoiler could flip towards the front end of the car, and if not stop at an angle to create downforce, at least flop all the way down to an stop adding lift.

[Superkarter]

There are sadly countless incidents where fans have been seriously injured or killed. Don't forget the birdge walkway collapse at Charlotte or the Indy race at Charlotte when a wheel went into the seats. In both cases, Smith sent out his "pastor" in an effort to con the famlies out of suing.

Bumping on short tracks is one thing. Quite another on long tracks. We have had this problem in karting when guys go from relatively slow dirt tracks to 130/140mph long track enduro road races. They forget that folks leave with more than a trashed nose cone at those speeds (sometimes they leave in a casket). Just at our last race at Roebling Road Raceway in Savannah, a fomer dirt champ spun out on several occasions in practice (yes you have to lift the throttle in road racing) and then was accused of taking out a bunch of folks in the Yamaha laydown race. One guy was ambulanced out. I guess you can take the driver out of the short track but you can't take the short track out of the driver. They are different disciplines. Same goes for NASCAR. Let it all loose at places like Martinsville. But on tracks like Atlanta, a 3 race probation (whatever that is), sends a terrible message.

http://freewebs.com/centslessracing

[Hoss Ghoul]

A few things:

Kenny Brack and Tony Renna's crashes at Texas and Indy would have been fatal to fans had there been any sitting in those sections at the time.

Just a couple of incidents of cars/debris getting in to stands that have not been mentioned yet.

And it should be considered lucky that Edwards crash at Talladega was not fatal for anyone, it easily could have been, many were injured. Also, don't forget Bodine's tumble down the frontstretch at Daytona in a CTS race years back, many fans injured in that one.

Hardly .001% of danger...

I recalled another instance of a spoiler car flipping that I didn't see mentioned, Cale Yarborough qualifying at Daytona in the 80's, flipped comming out of Turn 4 I believe, rolling and tumbling a long way afterwards. Then won the race in his backup car.

Lastly, part of the reason for all those fatalities at Le Mans in 1955 was that the car was made of Magnesium...which as we all know reacts rather poorly to fire. Interestingly, the driver who also perished was attempting to complete the full 24 hours solo, and was in a position to win. No more solo attempts or Magnesium cars were allowed afterwards.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The thing is that this incident has a few different takes. First off, we have the issue of NASCAR not policing the driving of guys on the track. Letting the drivers settle things. As 71fan pointed out, that is what is unique about stock racing. The problem is at 190mph on the doglegs at Atlanta, the repecussions for it go up. If you want guys settling things with their bumpers and fenders, then don't race on a track where 190mph is the speeds the cars are whizzing by 20 feet from spectators. Either don't sell the first 30 rows of seats, OR stick to short tracks.

The second part of this is of course the repecussions of that car if it made it through the fence. Harvick (the poster, not the driver) shrugs...like oh it is just a teeny chance. Why, they used to just have chain link fences until the 90's. No...they didn't. They have always used lots of stressed cables reinforcing that fence. You can see old photo's of various tracks with the cables. Still, a 3400 lb. race car hitting that fence at 190mph could make it through. I hope like hell it never does, but Carl's car last year was as close as I have seen in recent history and I wouldn't want to see a repeat of it, but lets face the reality. Guys being told they can settle things with their front bumper means it is MORE likely to happen. Heck, lets just keep firing cars into that fence until one makes it through!

It is retarded what has gone on in the last few days. All this fury over what Carl did, and nothing happens really. Meanwhile, we have a bunch of people trying to blame Brad for all of this, and god knows he is a snot nosed punk in how he drives, but so are both Busch's and guys like Swervin Irvan in the past. They all to through the phase and get out of it in time. Still doesn't justify putting him into the fence at the dog legs in Atlanta.

NASCAR said they were going to let the drivers police things themselves. So basically by giving Carl probation they are holding to their word, and the drivers will have to decide how much retaliation is too much. Feckless response on NASCAR 's part if you ask me, but it is what I expected. This is great press, and you know people will tune in next week to see someone punt Kesolowski again. Great for ratings...great for attention....and meanwhile they keep rolling the dice hoping that a car doesn't end up in the stands. The idea it CANNOT happen is foolish. If you have guys intentionally wrecking cars at 190mph, then the odds go up a lot. Once that car is airborne, all bets are off on how it will land if it hits the fence. I know this much, you couldn't pay me to sit in those first 30 rows......

[Hoss Ghoul]

Lastly, part of the reason for all those fatalities at Le Mans in 1955 was that the car was made of Magnesium...which as we all know reacts rather poorly to fire. Interestingly, the driver who also perished was attempting to complete the full 24 hours solo, and was in a position to win. No more solo attempts or Magnesium cars were allowed afterwards.

I was mistaken, there was a co-driver in 55, and should have mentioned fire fighting efforts with water were not helpful...

Not a morning person.


Back to the matter at hand, It will be interesting to hear from the rest of the drivers on this. So far Bowyer has been critical as has Robby Gordon, and Kyle Petty, while Michael Waltrip, Jimmy Spencer and a few others have supported Edwards and Nascar.

[Riley]

So no, I will not condemn Carl for what he did. As a matter of fact I encourage it. And, I'll be heading to my local 1/4 mile dirt track this Saturday to watch the beating, banging, and payback that is American auto racing.

As always, your opinions and mileage may vary. : - )

So just to be totally sure, you would be happy to endorse this type of driving even at the expense of the life of the driver or a spectator. Lets assume that a car or part of a car goes into the crowd at the next race and seriously injures a spectator as a direct result of a 'revenge' move. Would you be comfortable with that scenario? Yes or No? You simply can't encourage this type of driving if, however slight the risk, someone could be seriously injured or killed.

[Lee Roy]

So just to be totally sure, you would be happy to endorse this type of driving even at the expense of the life of the driver or a spectator. Lets assume that a car or part of a car goes into the crowd at the next race and seriously injures a spectator as a direct result of a 'revenge' move. Would you be comfortable with that scenario? Yes or No? You simply can't encourage this type of driving if, however slight the risk, someone could be seriously injured or killed.


Wow Riley, for someone who never bothered or cared to ever visit the NASCAR board before this accident, you've really got your panties in a wad.

[slorydn1]

So just to be totally sure, you would be happy to endorse this type of driving even at the expense of the life of the driver or a spectator. Lets assume that a car or part of a car goes into the crowd at the next race and seriously injures a spectator as a direct result of a 'revenge' move. Would you be comfortable with that scenario? Yes or No? You simply can't encourage this type of driving if, however slight the risk, someone could be seriously injured or killed.

I started following NASCAR in 1979 when I was just 9 years old.

In that time there have been 998 Cup races, 874 Nationwide races, and 419 Truck series races, for a total of 2291 Nascar National touring series races in that time. I don't have a count of the total number of fans that actually attended those races, so lets just stipulate that it is in the millions. I can only remember a grand total of between 10-20 fans that received injuries of any kind while attending those races and none of those were due to on-track retaliation. Period. No deaths. None, Zero. Zilch. Nool. Nada.
More people were hurt JUST LAST YEAR attending Major League Baseball games by batted balls than have been in the 30+ years I have been following NASCAR.

And no driver has ever been killed by retaliation, and thats going back to the days where the cars themselves were no where NEAR as safe as they are now.

So your diatribe really does not hold much water with me.

[harvick#1]

there is another way to have fan safety, since the tracks are no longer sellouts, make the rows closest to the track closed off and put sponsor banners or something.

there is always an overraction, case in point, Hockey and the NHL, one girl dies at a game while being hit by a puck, something that never happened before, the NHL then put up nets now for "fan safety" but for all the times being a kid going to a hockey game, I was always hoping that I'd be lucky to catch a puck when it goes out of the rink. it has basically all but killed me to go see a game anymore live, unless I get lucky and get a center ice ticket. everyone knows going into that stadium that a puck could comes toward them, much like at a baseball game as well

Motorsport racing is and always will be a Dangerous Sport, every fan should know that, if your scared you may be hit, DONT GO to a race, stay at home and watch it on TV.

but a car is NEVER gonna hop the fence, Bodines and Edwards crashes rank how much force is done, but those fences held their own as they are suppose to, I'm sure the fence had to be fixed, but it did its job, as a CATCH FENCE.

whe I was at Petit last September, the Acura LMP hit a Porsche GT2 and sent the Acura flying into the fence at a very fast speed, I was at spectator hill and never saw what happened, but showing replays showed that the fence worked and needed to be replaced afterward.

lets not forget Kenny Bracks crash at Texas, where I think it was he and Papis got together in the final laps and went into the fence, the fence held the cars at 210+ speeds.

you've got to put faith in the safety equipment these tracks have, I honestly believe I will never see a Nascar car at any time ever fly over the Catch Fence.

[harvick#1]

Wow Riley, for someone who never bothered or cared to ever visit the NASCAR board before this accident, you've really got your panties in a wad.

:up:

[Riley]

Wow Riley, for someone who never bothered or cared to ever visit the NASCAR board before this accident, you've really got your panties in a wad.

There has been some interesting discussion here, but I'm afraid your comment doesn't really add much does it?

I promise I won't bother your NASCAR forum again, but at the risk of repeating myself for the third time - I'm only saying that I find the deliberate wrecking of another competitor at such high speeds perilously dangerous as well a desperately talentless way to overtake. Yes I know 'rubbin is racin' but I'd challenge any of you to sit in the front row at Talledega whilst a car is launched at you at 190 mph and not blink. Oh and you'd have to be sober. Now I'd better go and un wad my panties. Any tips Lee Roy? :)

[slorydn1]

I promise I won't bother your NASCAR forum again, Now I'd better go and un wad my panties. Any tips Lee Roy? :)

My wife actually handles that for me :p :

Don't go running off and hiding because Lee Roy smacked ya, we've all been smacked by Lee Roy at one time or another. But we love him anyway, he's like grandpa around these parts.

I happen to disagree with you %110, but that doesn't make your points any less valid, nor does the fact that you have only 28 posts and have only been here for 2 months have anything to do with what you are trying to say.

Just remember, Nascar is different from open wheel. Always has been, always will be.

And Yes, I would be absolutley BALLISTIC if Hamilton intentionally wrecked Massa in an f1 race because thats not what f1 is about. Just ask Shuey what that gets ya (can anyone say Jerez).

But in Nascar it's acceptable although even I wish Carl would have picked a better spot on the track to take care of bidness.....

I'm not real fond of Carl Edwards, never will be,but I gotta stick up for his right to address the rookie punk's wrongs. That said, Carl has to understand that several other drivers are now looking at what Nascar said and are probably dredging up old wrongs that he was responsible for and he may have to watch his mirrors for a while to come.

Here,have a :beer:

[Easy Drifter]

My only problem with the payback was where it happened and the speed.
But never say never.
Last year at Mosport a Formula Vee made it over the tire barrier, the concrete wall and a catch fence approx another 12 feet high. Luckily one rear wheel did catch the top of the fence and left the car dangling on the spectator side of the fence probably 10 feet from the actual spectator fence.
A ruddy Formula Vee doing maybe 100 mph there! Sure it was open wheel but it was that close at a fairly low speed.
I just hope after this the drivers will use a little more care in where they do payback. It is part of stock car racing at every level.
I can also assure you the sports car guys are no angels either, maybe just a little more discrete.
Open wheel are pretty careful but remember PT and his infamous chrome horn. :D

[harvick#1]

I can also assure you the sports car guys are no angels either, maybe just a little more discrete.

Laguna seca last year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3y0tbdpcFc

please tell me, whats worse than this move, maybe one of the dirtest move ever for a win, that should've been stripped

[call_me_andrew]

Laguna seca last year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3y0tbdpcFc

please tell me, whats worse than this move, maybe one of the dirtest move ever for a win, that should've been stripped

Yes, that move should of had the win stripped, but the Edwards-Keselowski affair is far worse on the grounds that Edwards was 150 laps down while Keselowski was in the top-10.

[Riley]

Laguna seca last year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3y0tbdpcFc

please tell me, whats worse than this move, maybe one of the dirtest move ever for a win, that should've been stripped

Darn it I'm back! I'm not out to bash NASCAR - any time any driver deliberatley takes out another competitor is unacceptable what ever the series - NASCAR, F1, IRL, ALMS etc etc. The incident you highlight could easily have injured a corner worker. I take it from your post that you don't approve of this or the Edwards Keselowski crash.

I may have misquoted you but I believe you've said that a car will NEVER hop a fence. I do hope you are right. As another contributor to this thread noted, the Tony Renna accident at Indy a few years back was grizzly to say the least and had there been spectators there the it would not only have been poor old Tony that perished. I hope that the 'Car of Tomorrow' and a it's apparent high safety rating doesn't breed a false sense of security in the drivers.

[Easy Drifter]

Riley: As I mentioned I am a retired road racer but I have driven a stocker. I have also followed the taxi cabs since they ran on the beach at Daytona!
Tradin paint and deliberate hitting plus payback is the culture and the name of the game. You are not going to change 60 plus years of attitude.
I appreciate you do not like it but the taxi cab people don't give a rats --- what you think.
The Vette drivers in the ALMS series are as rough and dirty as anyone.
And please do not try and tell me the pro sports car guys do not hit on purpose.
I drove pro sports cars for 9 years. There always was a certain amount of hitting on purpose. And yes I hit and got hit.
Actually just watch almost any race with the Daytona Prototypes.
Open wheel do not hit much on purpose only because it is as likely to take you out too.
That said what Edwards did at that speed was extremely dangerous and stupid.
Just watch Bristol and Martinsville.

[Sparky1329]

If Robby Gordon did what Carl did he'd have been parked for five races and penalized 500 points.

[PitMarshal]

Granted it's in a slightly different context, but just for anyone who thinks a full-bodied car can't clear a catch-fence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n8MhZhw_sQ

I'll quite happily admit that when I started watching oval racing part of the appeal was the knowledge that some tracks almost guaranteed a crash-fest, but there is a difference between getting loose and losing the car or a bump-and-run going wrong, and a blatant attempt to end another guys race. I wrote in another forum that NA$CAR are setting a very dangerous precedent here. It's all very well saying the drivers shold be allowed to police themselves, but Nascar as a sanctioning body have to set limits. By doing nothing more than slapping Carl on the wrist they've effectively given drivers the green light to do whatever they want. What Carl did might be fine on a dirt track or a cookie-cutter, but at 190mph on a dog leg no-one can predict how the cars are going to behave. The only thing Nascar should have considered is that if Brad had gone through, or over the fence, both Carl and Nascar would amost certainly be facing manslaughter charges.

Having said all that it should certainly make Bristol more entertaining with anyone coming up behind CE knowing they can nerf him out the way and he can't retaliate unless he's VERY careful how he does it. It'll certainly be interesting to see what happens if BK catches him anytime in the next three races...

[ShiftingGears]

If Robby Gordon did what Carl did he'd have been parked for five races and penalized 500 points.

To be fair, if Carl crashed people out as often as Robby Gordon does, he would've been.

[harvick#1]

PitMarshal

on ovals, the catch fences are about twice as high compared to a road course track, heck, alot of sections on a road course aren't even fenced that have a big runoff area.

if Brad retaliates on Carl, I gotta a feeling that Brad could be parked for the race, as Nascar knows whats going on, besides, Brad can't payback, hes already wrecked Carl enough not to warrant one, I suspect Brad is gonna race Carl alot cleaner.

[Lee Roy]

The only thing Nascar should have considered is that if Brad had gone through, or over the fence, both Carl and Nascar would amost certainly be facing manslaughter charges.


I doubt it. CART and the IRL never had manslaughter charges brought against them for all the people that they've killed in the grandstands.

[Sparky1329]

To be fair, if Carl crashed people out as often as Robby Gordon does, he would've been.

With all due respect, Robby crashes himself out a lot more frequently than he does other people.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I doubt it. CART and the IRL never had manslaughter charges brought against them for all the people that they've killed in the grandstands.

True LeeRoy, but putting aside your antipathy for open wheeled racing, riddle me this? If a NASCAR driver does what Carl did and the car manages to get into the stands. Not parts, but the car....do you want to watch the laywerfest?

What is very unsettling isn't that guys settle scores, I am ok with it if guys use their heads, but that is the problem. They don't. Carl didn't. Putting guys on their lid at the fastest track on the circuit (no plates and lots of banking on wide turns) is not using one's head. What is more, god forbid anyone does get hurt. Guys have to be smarter, and I always knew Carl had a means streak but I didn't think he was stupid. I thought wrong...

There is a time and place for settling scores and a method. Every race series has their getting even moments, but only in NASCAR is it celebrated. I equate it to hockey fighting, it is all cheap entertaining until someone really gets hurt AND I can tell you that for the most part, it means very little in the end to the final outcome.

[Riley]

At least I have one friend here! I've been racing for 10 years now and have several National Champioships under my belt and survived the UK Formula Ford 1600 scene in the 90's - some of the fiercest racing known to man kind and I never gained a position by pushing another driver out the way. Sure I've made contact and gained position but not deliberately, and I've had a few shouting matches in the pits (the best place to settle scores). Open wheel racing is a whole new ball game when it comes to contact, but having fenders shouldn't mean it's a free for all. My first race on a short track oval over here was an eye opener to say the least. It didn't take me long to get fed up with fighting my way into a good position only to then be 'moved' out of the way so I went back to what I know best. Horses for Courses.

[Lee Roy]

At least I have one friend here! I've been racing for 10 years now and have several National Champioships under my belt and survived the UK Formula Ford 1600 scene in the 90's - some of the fiercest racing known to man kind and I never gained a position by pushing another driver out the way. Sure I've made contact and gained position but not deliberately, and I've had a few shouting matches in the pits (the best place to settle scores). Open wheel racing is a whole new ball game when it comes to contact, but having fenders shouldn't mean it's a free for all. My first race on a short track oval over here was an eye opener to say the least. It didn't take me long to get fed up with fighting my way into a good position only to then be 'moved' out of the way so I went back to what I know best. Horses for Courses.

You still haven't got your panties straightened out?

[Lee Roy]

True LeeRoy, but putting aside your antipathy for open wheeled racing, riddle me this? If a NASCAR driver does what Carl did and the car manages to get into the stands. Not parts, but the car....do you want to watch the laywerfest?


Was there a lawyerfest for the 6 people killed by CART and the IRL?

[slorydn1]

Was there a lawyerfest for the 6 people killed by CART and the IRL?

I guess the lawyers figured it was like trying sue a homeless person for their mansion...u can't get blood out of a stone :p :

[71Fan]

used to have a link to an Atlanta Journal Constitution thing listing deaths in motorsports....went looking for it but apparently it's been taken down...I'll look again when I have time.

and btw, a buddy of mine's girlfriend got clipped by a tire that came over the fence at a Vegas open-wheel race of one kind or another.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Was there a lawyerfest for the 6 people killed by CART and the IRL?

Dunno if there was or wasn't, but I can tell you if Edwards was in the stands last year at Dega, you want to speculate how many die? A whole car??? The IRL/CART deaths were for wheels and bits and pieces. From accidents that were not from an intentional act, but were from unintended consquences...and accident. I think the whole complexion changes if a car comes through the fence, and not because of racing incident, but a blatant attempt to wreck someone. It would be the perfect storm and you know it Lee Roy. Getting even is one thing, doing it at 195 in the dog leg where the car is going to make a HARD impact with the fence because the car is hitting the wall on a sharper angle; well that is just not something I want to conteplate and neither do you if you are honest.

[slorydn1]

Ok.....I'm not an engineer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But here is why I think an entire cup car can't pierce the catch fencing at today's race tracks.

To do this, I will use some engineering stuff I learned reading up on Dale Sr's death at Daytona.

Its all about the Delta-V at the time of impact, and the angle of attack plays a HUGE part in this equation, as well as slippage.

Now, I don't have the exact numbers. But people who say they are in the know have told me over the years that the catch fencing is designed to hold a 3400 lb car with a STRAIGHT IN impact of about 100 mph...Before y'all go completely bezerk over this with the "THAT'S ALL!?!?!?!?!" let me explain further. That would be a 3400lb car, leaving pit road at an angle perpendicular to the race track, jumping a ramp Evel Knievel style and heading STRAIGHT at the fence at 100 mph. That would one hell of a hit....More on that later, and you should understand further.

OK...we all know that at a plate track like daytona late in a run the cars are maintaining roughly 180-185 in the center of the corner....which correlates nicely to what Kes and Edwards would have been running at the start finish line at Atlanta on old tires in race trim (people keep saying 195, but they would barely have hit 195 at the braking zone for turn 1, if that, that late in a run).

For those who saw the 3 get loose when the 40 bumped him, then the 3 and 36 headed straight up the track and hit the wall, the suddeness of the turn and impact was pretty shocking, right? Probably about as straight an impact as any of us has ever seen between race car and wall/fence at a nascar track.

I don't remember the exact race car speed at the moment of impact, but it was somewhere in the high 160's low 170's...

Does anyone here remember what the actual Delta-V of the impact was? Some ridculously low number in the mid 40's, I think it was 46mph....yep 46 mph, that was the speed at impact, with the car travelling apprximately 165 mph along its velocity vector, which was still straight through corner apex of turns 3 and 4 and not at the wall at the cars impact point.

Why is this important? 46MPH is less than half the fence's rated speed of 100 mph.

I haven't seen any numbers on Carl Edwards wreck at dega last year, but the improvements made to the fencing since Allison's car pierced it at a much less angle of attack back in 1987 had shown themselves big time. And even in Allison's case, the car was spit back out by the fence back onto the track. Same as Edwards car last year.

So, unless some yahoo gets really mad, and drives from the garage area across pit road, through the tri-oval grass, and launches himself straight into the catchfence at over 100 mph, I don't see the whole car making it through and landing on the fans in the stands,i just don't see it.

Now the debris from cars have caused some gruesome injuries over the years, and some of that has been addressed with wheel and hood/trunk lid tethers, but I agree more needs to be done there.....If someone could invent some form of see through kevlar, they would be very rich, indeed :D

[call_me_andrew]

A few years ago Tony George promised to reinvent catch fencing. Considering nothing ever came of that and TG is out of power, I do not think anything will come of it.

[slorydn1]

A few years ago Tony George promised to reinvent catch fencing. Considering nothing ever came of that and TG is out of power, I do not think anything will come of it.

nope...not from him, anyway :D

[Lee Roy]

Tony who?

[Lee Roy]

It would be the perfect storm and you know it Lee Roy.

If a car were to get into the stands, I think lawyers would be the least of the problems. No track over 1/2 mile would be able to get any kind of insurance to hold events anymore.

[Riley]

Ok.....I'm not an engineer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But here is why I think an entire cup car can't pierce the catch fencing at today's race tracks.

I originally started this thread because I was unhappy with the notion that deliberatley taking another driver out at 190mph has been deemed a minor issue, and as such will doubtless happen again. The thread has naturally evolved into a discussion about track safety, which is fine. I appreciate that the likely hood of a car making into the grandstands is slim, but to say that it will never happen is a dangerous mind set. Back on April 29th 1994 F1 cars were thought to be so safe that the prospect of a fatality wasn't even discussed. By the end of that weekend at Imola those delusions were shattered. I think it's a dangerous mind set to say that a NASCAR (or any high speed oval race car) can't pierce the crash fence. If NASCAR continues to endorse the type of driving demonstrated by Carl Edwards then we owe it to the drivers and more importantly the trackside fans to at least take another look at catch fence safety. Unfortunately your science is questionable as you simply can't factor in the random nature of accidents. How many crashes have happened at times and places we couldn't predict? A quick trawl through Youtube will reveal some pretty bizare accidents.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If a car were to get into the stands, I think lawyers would be the least of the problems. No track over 1/2 mile would be able to get any kind of insurance to hold events anymore.

Yes, but you grasp the seriousness of it. You also grasp that if the crash was INTENTIONAL, the whole thing gets made into a bigger tragedy.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Slorydn, I agree with all your numbers as you portray them, but engineers don't always get it right, because planes still crash, bridges sometimes fail and other unintendeded consequences occur. I don't ever think a car will make all the way through, but the last thing the sport needs is guys being put into the fence ON purpose so we can test how well the engineers do their job. AT a place like Martinsville or Bristol, I say let them wreck each other. Richmond maybe too...but once you get up to the Cookie Cutters and on up, the stakes are just getting a little dicey to test.

[harvick#1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8lrmQP3NeU

so I guess WRC is just you have to be totally insane to even attempt to watch a rally

[slorydn1]

I originally started this thread because I was unhappy with the notion that deliberatley taking another driver out at 190mph has been deemed a minor issue, and as such will doubtless happen again. The thread has naturally evolved into a discussion about track safety, which is fine. I appreciate that the likely hood of a car making into the grandstands is slim, but to say that it will never happen is a dangerous mind set. Back on April 29th 1994 F1 cars were thought to be so safe that the prospect of a fatality wasn't even discussed. By the end of that weekend at Imola those delusions were shattered. I think it's a dangerous mind set to say that a NASCAR (or any high speed oval race car) can't pierce the crash fence. If NASCAR continues to endorse the type of driving demonstrated by Carl Edwards then we owe it to the drivers and more importantly the trackside fans to at least take another look at catch fence safety. Unfortunately your science is questionable as you simply can't factor in the random nature of accidents. How many crashes have happened at times and places we couldn't predict? A quick trawl through Youtube will reveal some pretty bizare accidents.

As you probably saw at the end of my post:



Now the debris from cars have caused some gruesome injuries over the years, and some of that has been addressed with wheel and hood/trunk lid tethers, but I agree more needs to be done there.....If someone could invent some form of see through kevlar, they would be very rich, indeed :D

that I do agree with you there, more needs to be done. Its a dilemma that has gone on for years; safety versus the fans ability to see the action because a screen across the fencing would obscure the view....

Now, as for the drivers themselves. I would have liked to have seen Edwards use better judgement as to where he did what he did. And he has to answer to the other drivers for that, I'm not sure that everyone on the grid is as happy with what he did as many think. It cost several people good finishes they would have had had the race just finished instead of having to have a GWC because he was pissed at Special K. That said, I agree with Nascar's decision to park him for the remainder of the event. But it any penalties for that should stay within the confines fo that event if possible. Yes it only cost him 4 positions (12 points) THIS TIME. When Harvick got parked at thre truck truck race in martinsville in 2002, that cost him a lead lap finish for sure, and probably close to 50 points by itself. Ive seen people here avocating 100, 200 points penalties ON TOP of a suspension (the loss of anywhere between 34 to 195 points) ON TOP of all the points that Special K has cost him already......

THAT, I cannot agree with on when a driver is merely righting a wrong that nascar stated its not getting in the business of fixing any more.

Now....had this VERY SAME incident occured last year, I would have been calling for a fine, year long probation, and some sort of small points penalty for him because that was the law of the land at the time it occured.....

But NASCAR SAID that they would be hands off and it led to this....Hammering Carl would have done zero for their already shoddy crediblity....

[71Fan]

.....Riley....

To be very clear.....I have no problem at all with what Carl did.

Basically, every wreck on a racetrack is potentially fatal so in my mind, 85mph or 185mph makes no difference.

harvick#1.....I think the only even semi-safe place to watch a rally or an off-road race is from the side of a gully....preferably on the inside of a turn.

Still haven't found a printable version of that AJC Death in Racing article. Did find a pdf thing that has pictures of the newspaper article but the database seems to be gone.

[71Fan]

Not sure if this has been posted....lot's easier to follow threads on boards where there are more of them speaking to specific things but hey....just another new kid in Rome doing what the Roman's do...And being that some folks are on dial-up, I'm going to post the entire article which is something I don't usually do.......so....

http://www.scenedaily.com/news/articles/sprintcupseries/Brad_Keselowski_says_he_wont_back_down_will_contin ue_to_race_aggressively_despite_controversial_cras h_with_Carl_Edwards.html

Brad Keselowski, the victim of Carl Edwards’ wrath at Atlanta Motor Speedway last week, says he doesn’t plan on changing how he races and doesn’t feel that he has been overly aggressive in the majority of the on-track incidents he has been blamed for.

The 26-year-old Penske Racing driver, whose car got airborne and slammed roof-first into the outside wall when Edwards intentionally wrecked him at Atlanta, has no intention of changing his driving style despite the latest in a series of incidents with other drivers in the past two years.

“To be honest, that’s probably the best revenge there is – to not let it get to me one bit, to not change,” Keselowski said Thursday. “In a way, that’s a sign to him and everyone else that that’s not going to work on me.

“I feel lucky to be in race cars that are as safe as they are, to be able to be here talking today and to be able to say, ‘Hey, I’ll take the lick’ and I’ll get out of the car and come back the next race weekend and drive just as hard just to prove a point that I wasn’t wrong and I still don’t feel like I’m wrong.”

Edwards, who was angry over contact from Keselowski earlier in the race and by previous run-ins with the driver, returned to the track at Atlanta to retaliate against Keselowski. He was parked by NASCAR after the incident and placed on probation for three races.

Keselowski said he is too biased to have a credible opinion on NASCAR’s penalty. He said he would have not felt good if Edwards had been suspended because fans would be confused by such a harsh penalty after the January announcement that NASCAR was loosening the reins on drivers and letting them police themselves on the track.

As far as how far drivers can go without a points deduction or suspension, Keselowski said “whether or not that is somebody getting hurt, I hope not.” Keselowski said his reaction wouldn’t include payback toward Edwards.

“The thought in my mind is to do absolutely nothing at all,” Keselowski said, “to not change, to continue to drive my cars as hard as I can and try to win races [and not] to elevate my aggressiveness as far as being a retaliatory driver or to downgrade my driving status. … To not justify it is the way to handle it. To not justify that rationale of thinking is the only way to defeat it.”

That doesn’t mean that Keselowski won’t look at tapes of the incident and figure out if he could have done anything differently while racing Edwards. He said he has looked at the incidents in the past with Denny Hamlin and others to see if he should have raced differently.

“I have the good fortune of having some time and the mental presence to be objective and realize that some of the things I might have done during that process might not have been the cool thing to do – I might have been a jerk,” Keselowski said. “I can see that. I can see a lot of different sides and a lot of different opinions and have respect for the majority of them.

“Specifically, the incident at Phoenix [with payback of Hamlin], what I did there was over my own line so to speak. The incidents before that, I don’t feel that way about, and the incidents after that, I don’t feel that way about.”

Keselowski said his aggressive driving style is what landed him the Cup ride at Penske Racing.

“It’s not possible to get a Cup ride right now without being aggressive and without having some swagger in your step,” Keselowski said. “Does that make you a jerk? To some people, yes. To some people, no. It depends on where you’re coming from. If you look at the sport right now, there are no new drivers coming in.

“So whatever I’m doing is working and it’s gotten me to where I’m at and I’ve survived this [lack] of development drivers that are not getting opportunities because of that attitude, because of that aggressiveness.”

Keselowski says that NASCAR is about being aggressive and racing for wins. He seemed perplexed that Edwards was mad at him for the contact at Atlanta. He said he was trying to give Edwards room on lap 40 when got into the back of Edwards’ car, which slipped up the track and ran into Joey Logano.

Keselowski and Edwards were involved in the infamous Talladega crash last April, in which Edwards tried to block Keselowski while racing for the win on the final lap and the two made contact, launching Edwards’ car into the catchfence after getting hit by Ryan Newman. Keselowski also spun Edwards while racing for the win in the Nationwide Series race at Memphis last year and the two also had contact in the Nationwide race at Daytona earlier this year that resulted in Dale Earnhardt Jr.’s car flipping upside down.

“Most of the incidents that I’ve had that I’ve gotten negative feedback on have not been because I’ve been aggressive, with the exception of maybe Memphis, but they’ve been simply because I held my line and was not willing to be pushed around,” Keselowski said. “If you consider that to be aggressive, I guess you have a different definition of aggressive than I do. I consider that holding your ground and not being pushed around.”

Keselowski made it clear that he didn’t approve of what Edwards did at Atlanta.

“I don’t feel like being aggressive had anything to do with the issues we had at Atlanta,” Keselowski said. “The previous run-ins we had in the past are fairly balanced on both sides, and I really don’t feel bad about the run-ins that we’ve had as far as the ones where he’s been at fault or the ones where I’ve been at fault because, to me, they were all hard-racing instances up until Atlanta.

“To say that aggressive driving solely on my side was the reason for this is not really something that I agree with. To take that even further and say, ‘Why would Carl be mad at you if that wasn’t the case?’ or ‘Why would Carl have done what he had done?’ I’m not entirely sure. … I don’t think a guy that is simply mad at you for the contact we had earlier in the race at Atlanta would do what he did. There’s probably more to the puzzle that I don’t know.”

Keselowski also said the wreck at Talladega was a “completely different circumstance” and is not comparable. After the Memphis race, Keselowski said he talked with Edwards privately about Memphis and admitted he was too aggressive. After that race, Edwards said if Keselowski wanted to make things exciting for fans, that Edwards could make it exciting.

“When other drivers are critical of you, it’s sort of like asking Steve Jobs if the stock in Apple is going to go up – of course, he’s going to say it’s going to go up because he has something to benefit from,” Keselowski said. “That’s the same thing with other drivers. If you ask other drivers’ opinions on other people or scenarios or the sport, they’re going to give you an answer that is self-beneficial.

“It’s hard to ask other drivers what they think of me and get a credible, objective answer. The only one I can think of it who does it consistently is Jeff Burton.”

Burton said Wednesday that Keselowski needs to learn to balance give-and-take on the race track.

“He’s absolutely right, but the thing is, the media doesn’t cover when I give, they cover when I take,” Keselowski said. “I wish I could sit down one day and just show somebody an in-car camera tape of how I drive a race and you would see that I give as much, if not more, than any other race-car driver out there.

“The difference is what my interpretation of give is versus what someone else’s interpretation of give is. When you go down in the corner on a restart and you’re all stacked up and there’s no place to go in front of you, giving to me is not running into the guy in front of you, giving him a break where you don’t run up behind him and get him loose and cause him to drive into the car next to him. The scenario in Atlanta on lap 40 was specifically that. The reason why Carl was able to even have the smallest of holes to turn into was because of the fact that I was giving because it was lap 40.”

So what created problem between them?

“This might be where other drivers see things differently than me – what giving is not to me is being in your lane and allowing somebody else to turn down into you, pushing you off the race track and lifting for them,” Keselowski said. “That is not giving to me. That is being bullied around and allowing yourself to be bullied around. There is a sharp and drastic difference between the two.”

[71Fan]

btw....here's Gordon/Rudd in 1994....what's yer take on this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=770Cc8ReGSY

[71Fan]

btw....there are an amazing number of crash videos around that link

[slorydn1]

btw....here's Gordon/Rudd in 1994....what's yer take on this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=770Cc8ReGSY


I can't unfortunately...I'm at work :(

No Youtube for us at 3 in the morning, God forbid we have something to keep us awake....

[slorydn1]

Not sure if this has been posted....lot's easier to follow threads on boards where there are more of them speaking to specific things but hey....just another new kid in Rome doing what the Roman's do...And being that some folks are on dial-up, I'm going to post the entire article which is something I don't usually do.......so....

http://www.scenedaily.com/news/articles/sprintcupseries/Brad_Keselowski_says_he_wont_back_down_will_contin ue_to_race_aggressively_despite_controversial_cras h_with_Carl_Edwards.html

Brad Keselowski, the victim of Carl Edwards’ wrath at Atlanta Motor Speedway last week, says he doesn’t plan on changing how he races and doesn’t feel that he has been overly aggressive in the majority of the on-track incidents he has been blamed for.

The 26-year-old Penske Racing driver, whose car got airborne and slammed roof-first into the outside wall when Edwards intentionally wrecked him at Atlanta, has no intention of changing his driving style despite the latest in a series of incidents with other drivers in the past two years.

“To be honest, that’s probably the best revenge there is – to not let it get to me one bit, to not change,” Keselowski said Thursday. “In a way, that’s a sign to him and everyone else that that’s not going to work on me.

“I feel lucky to be in race cars that are as safe as they are, to be able to be here talking today and to be able to say, ‘Hey, I’ll take the lick’ and I’ll get out of the car and come back the next race weekend and drive just as hard just to prove a point that I wasn’t wrong and I still don’t feel like I’m wrong.”

Edwards, who was angry over contact from Keselowski earlier in the race and by previous run-ins with the driver, returned to the track at Atlanta to retaliate against Keselowski. He was parked by NASCAR after the incident and placed on probation for three races.

Keselowski said he is too biased to have a credible opinion on NASCAR’s penalty. He said he would have not felt good if Edwards had been suspended because fans would be confused by such a harsh penalty after the January announcement that NASCAR was loosening the reins on drivers and letting them police themselves on the track.

As far as how far drivers can go without a points deduction or suspension, Keselowski said “whether or not that is somebody getting hurt, I hope not.” Keselowski said his reaction wouldn’t include payback toward Edwards.

“The thought in my mind is to do absolutely nothing at all,” Keselowski said, “to not change, to continue to drive my cars as hard as I can and try to win races [and not] to elevate my aggressiveness as far as being a retaliatory driver or to downgrade my driving status. … To not justify it is the way to handle it. To not justify that rationale of thinking is the only way to defeat it.”

That doesn’t mean that Keselowski won’t look at tapes of the incident and figure out if he could have done anything differently while racing Edwards. He said he has looked at the incidents in the past with Denny Hamlin and others to see if he should have raced differently.

“I have the good fortune of having some time and the mental presence to be objective and realize that some of the things I might have done during that process might not have been the cool thing to do – I might have been a jerk,” Keselowski said. “I can see that. I can see a lot of different sides and a lot of different opinions and have respect for the majority of them.

“Specifically, the incident at Phoenix [with payback of Hamlin], what I did there was over my own line so to speak. The incidents before that, I don’t feel that way about, and the incidents after that, I don’t feel that way about.”

Keselowski said his aggressive driving style is what landed him the Cup ride at Penske Racing.

“It’s not possible to get a Cup ride right now without being aggressive and without having some swagger in your step,” Keselowski said. “Does that make you a jerk? To some people, yes. To some people, no. It depends on where you’re coming from. If you look at the sport right now, there are no new drivers coming in.

“So whatever I’m doing is working and it’s gotten me to where I’m at and I’ve survived this [lack] of development drivers that are not getting opportunities because of that attitude, because of that aggressiveness.”

Keselowski says that NASCAR is about being aggressive and racing for wins. He seemed perplexed that Edwards was mad at him for the contact at Atlanta. He said he was trying to give Edwards room on lap 40 when got into the back of Edwards’ car, which slipped up the track and ran into Joey Logano.

Keselowski and Edwards were involved in the infamous Talladega crash last April, in which Edwards tried to block Keselowski while racing for the win on the final lap and the two made contact, launching Edwards’ car into the catchfence after getting hit by Ryan Newman. Keselowski also spun Edwards while racing for the win in the Nationwide Series race at Memphis last year and the two also had contact in the Nationwide race at Daytona earlier this year that resulted in Dale Earnhardt Jr.’s car flipping upside down.

“Most of the incidents that I’ve had that I’ve gotten negative feedback on have not been because I’ve been aggressive, with the exception of maybe Memphis, but they’ve been simply because I held my line and was not willing to be pushed around,” Keselowski said. “If you consider that to be aggressive, I guess you have a different definition of aggressive than I do. I consider that holding your ground and not being pushed around.”

Keselowski made it clear that he didn’t approve of what Edwards did at Atlanta.

“I don’t feel like being aggressive had anything to do with the issues we had at Atlanta,” Keselowski said. “The previous run-ins we had in the past are fairly balanced on both sides, and I really don’t feel bad about the run-ins that we’ve had as far as the ones where he’s been at fault or the ones where I’ve been at fault because, to me, they were all hard-racing instances up until Atlanta.

“To say that aggressive driving solely on my side was the reason for this is not really something that I agree with. To take that even further and say, ‘Why would Carl be mad at you if that wasn’t the case?’ or ‘Why would Carl have done what he had done?’ I’m not entirely sure. … I don’t think a guy that is simply mad at you for the contact we had earlier in the race at Atlanta would do what he did. There’s probably more to the puzzle that I don’t know.”

Keselowski also said the wreck at Talladega was a “completely different circumstance” and is not comparable. After the Memphis race, Keselowski said he talked with Edwards privately about Memphis and admitted he was too aggressive. After that race, Edwards said if Keselowski wanted to make things exciting for fans, that Edwards could make it exciting.

“When other drivers are critical of you, it’s sort of like asking Steve Jobs if the stock in Apple is going to go up – of course, he’s going to say it’s going to go up because he has something to benefit from,” Keselowski said. “That’s the same thing with other drivers. If you ask other drivers’ opinions on other people or scenarios or the sport, they’re going to give you an answer that is self-beneficial.

“It’s hard to ask other drivers what they think of me and get a credible, objective answer. The only one I can think of it who does it consistently is Jeff Burton.”

Burton said Wednesday that Keselowski needs to learn to balance give-and-take on the race track.

“He’s absolutely right, but the thing is, the media doesn’t cover when I give, they cover when I take,” Keselowski said. “I wish I could sit down one day and just show somebody an in-car camera tape of how I drive a race and you would see that I give as much, if not more, than any other race-car driver out there.

“The difference is what my interpretation of give is versus what someone else’s interpretation of give is. When you go down in the corner on a restart and you’re all stacked up and there’s no place to go in front of you, giving to me is not running into the guy in front of you, giving him a break where you don’t run up behind him and get him loose and cause him to drive into the car next to him. The scenario in Atlanta on lap 40 was specifically that. The reason why Carl was able to even have the smallest of holes to turn into was because of the fact that I was giving because it was lap 40.”

So what created problem between them?

“This might be where other drivers see things differently than me – what giving is not to me is being in your lane and allowing somebody else to turn down into you, pushing you off the race track and lifting for them,” Keselowski said. “That is not giving to me. That is being bullied around and allowing yourself to be bullied around. There is a sharp and drastic difference between the two.”

Maybe I need to keep my eye on him a bit more before I hammer him, after reading this.....

I just seem everyone hammering Harvick for the same things early on in his career (I can still remember Bobby Hamilton Sr after the second Martinsville race of 2001 making the "he thinks he's Earnhardt, he's not even a scab on Earnhardt's butt" comment) and he didn't get into half as many incidents as Keslowski......

Time will tell, but if he doesn't learn the give and take like Harvick had too (as well as getting the "You need the sport alot more than it needs you" speech from Helton), then its going to be a very short career for him, because Penske is gonna get awful tired of rebuilding wrecked race cars

[shazbot]

.....Riley....

To be very clear.....I have no problem at all with what Carl did.

Basically, every wreck on a racetrack is potentially fatal so in my mind, 85mph or 185mph makes no difference.
.


If you think there's no difference between an 85 mph accident and a 185mph accident then I'd suggest you've lost your mind. Sure you can be killed at 85mph, but I'd rather wreck at that speed than 100mph faster.

Riley - I've been reading this thread since the beginning and don't worry you're not the only one who has a problem with what Edwards did. Don't get too caught up on what some of the nut jobs think on here!

[71Fan]

I can't unfortunately...I'm at work :(

No Youtube for us at 3 in the morning, God forbid we have something to keep us awake....

Worked with a guy who had a sleep disorder. If he wasn't out of the head in 10 minutes we went looking for him. Did pull a trick on him one day tho. He nodded off at lunch and we left him sleeping. Quiting time was 1:30. Don't recall what time he said he woke up :-)

[71Fan]

If you think there's no difference between an 85 mph accident and a 185mph accident then I'd suggest you've lost your mind.

Oh YEA!!!! Oh YEA!!!!!!

Well it's gotta be around here somewhere.

But, I didn't say there was no difference. I said "every wreck on a racetrack is potentially fatal "....Read the black parts please.

[shazbot]

71fan - 'so in my mind, 85mph or 185mph makes no difference'


You mean these black parts? :arrows:

[71Fan]

What I'm saying is that if yer dead it doesn't matter how hard ya hit the wall.

[shazbot]

What I'm saying is that if yer dead it doesn't matter how hard ya hit the wall.

Oh how I love these forums! What on earth are you talking about!!??? :s mokin: 'If yer dead it doesn't matter how hard you hit the wall'. So you mean if you die at the wheel then crash? Yes, you are right, it really doesn't matter. Jeeez, I can't do this any more. I'm going outside to poke a rusty fork in my eye.

[beachbum]

Oh how I love these forums! What on earth are you talking about!!??? :s mokin: 'If yer dead it doesn't matter how hard you hit the wall'. So you mean if you die at the wheel then crash? Yes, you are right, it really doesn't matter. Jeeez, I can't do this any more. I'm going outside to poke a rusty fork in my eye.It's called "internet forum logic". It doesn't have to make sense, it just needs to be stated with conviction.

[71Fan]

Ok fine, if you die after hitting the wall it doesn't matter how hard you had hit it.

Geesh.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It's called "internet forum logic". It doesn't have to make sense, it just needs to be stated with conviction.

Oh we have LOTS of people with conviction....

[slorydn1]

The spoiler is not the be all and end all. BUT, the spoiler should increase the V2 speed (aviation term for take off speed) over what it is for the wing. And maybe NASCAR should look into adding the aero aids it intro'd at Daytona this year for ALL the races instead of just the plate races (the bigger, longer shark fin). It may be ugly, but according to NASCAR it added about 7 mph to the V2 speed, allowing them to utilize the larger plate).


Well,it appears someone at the tech center has some sense:


Fin to be implemented with spoiler: The 3½ inch fin that NASCAR implemented for the left side of the rear deck lid and window for the Daytona 500 will be used at all tracks once the spoiler is introduced, expected to be at Martinsville on March 28, to help keep cars on the ground. It was determined during wind tunnel tests after #12-Brad Keselowski's car went airborne in the closing laps at Atlanta Motor Speedway two weeks ago that the fin would decrease the probability of liftoff. They were introduced at the Daytona 500 with the intent of being used only at restrictor plate tracks. "It is an asset we can use everywhere," series director John Darby said. Kurt Romberg, the chief of aerodynamics at Hendrick Motorsports, said the fin helps break up the air and prevent a low pressure area from developing across the top of the car that creates liftoff.(ESPN)(3-17-2010)

http://jayski.com/cupnews.htm#news-spoiler18