Let's all feel sorry for Graham

[ChicagocrewIRL]

http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2010/03/03/indycars-graham-rahal-playing-dangerous-waiting-game/PARAMS/post/18448

Not quite sure how to feel about this. It looks like it was Graham's choice to sit out this season, repeat GRAHAM's CHOICE.

[beachbum]

So far, I haven't seen any reports refuting the article. If it is true, then Rahal has no one to blame but himself if he is left standing when the music stops.

Perhaps he is a reflection on one reason there are so few American's in the series. Graham is a good driver, but does he command big bucks?

When drivers of the quality of Justin Wilson basically run for peanuts just to stay in the sport, holding out for a better deal is going to put you on the sidelines. If you read Zanardi's biography, you will learn that drivers bringing sponsorship and running for nothing just to get a shot is very common in Europe. It seems many of the drivers expect it, just to get the chance at the brass ring. Sure they want to cash in, but they will race any way they can.

If the American drivers are always looking for the better deal (and Graham isn't the only one), some are going to get passed by for a quality driver willing to race for less or bring their own funding. That's just business.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

It's a little encouraging that we cannot blame IndyCar and it's culture for Graham having no ride in this situation. Whew

[TURN3]

It's a little encouraging that we cannot blame IndyCar and it's culture for Graham having no ride in this situation. Whew

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Isn't it the ICS that "created" the sad existence of a series it is today. No TV ratings to speak of to able teams to get sponsors (i.e. see Team Penske). Not specific to Graham, this reeks of the ICS's culture.

With regard to Graham, I compared his situation this year to that of similiear circumstances for Will Power last year. Graham apparently has confidence that Ganassi has a ride lined up for him next year. Why would he go to Coyne for a 2 year deal and miss out on that opportunity next year? Also of note in another thread is that PT has made claim on his Twitter page that every driver he's ever known driving for Coyne is still owed $$$$.

He isn't my favorite driver, but he is an example of every single reason why the ICS is next thing to foot in the grave. To have an opinion otherwise is in an overwhelming minority.

[Scotty G.]

Coyne will be a backmarker this year (a few good people have already left)and Graham's teammate (if the report is even true) would have been Milka Freakin' Duno.

And reportedly Coyne still owes Wilson money from last year, that he never paid.


There are a bunch of good reasons why qualified drivers would stay far away from this Coyne deal.

I think Graham is going to end up with something good, by the time we get to St. Pete anyway. And Coyne will be languishing around in about 23rd place, just hoping to make the race at Indy.

[Chamoo]

And reportedly Coyne still owes Wilson money from last year, that he never paid.

There are varying reports between Justin being paid and Justin not being paid. Until we get confirmation from Justin, we will never know, and don't expect a confirmation from Justin.

As for Graham, CC is saying Randy Bernard potentially hooked him up with a ride at St. Pete, Long Beach, and St. Pete.

[Wilf]

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Isn't it the ICS that "created" the sad existence of a series it is today. No TV ratings to speak of to able teams to get sponsors (i.e. see Team Penske). Not specific to Graham, this reeks of the ICS's culture.

With regard to Graham, I compared his situation this year to that of similiear circumstances for Will Power last year. Graham apparently has confidence that Ganassi has a ride lined up for him next year. Why would he go to Coyne for a 2 year deal and miss out on that opportunity next year? Also of note in another thread is that PT has made claim on his Twitter page that every driver he's ever known driving for Coyne is still owed $$$$.

He isn't my favorite driver, but he is an example of every single reason why the ICS is next thing to foot in the grave. To have an opinion otherwise is in an overwhelming minority.

That is so Robinesque of you. The sky is falling and it's all TG's fault; oh wait, it's the sisters fault. The IRL is going under and EVERYBODY knows it.

I have to wonder why a team expands when it doesn't have sponsors? How many cars are going to be in Sao Paulo? Wish what you will but IndyCar, while by no mean healthy, is far from on it's last leg.

It's in the league's best interest to have Graham in a car, but one has to wonder how much effort has been expended when there are twenty other cars on the grid.

[EagleEye]

http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2010/03/03/indycars-graham-rahal-playing-dangerous-waiting-game/PARAMS/post/18448

Not quite sure how to feel about this. It looks like it was Graham's choice to sit out this season, repeat GRAHAM's CHOICE.

His choice, is a good one.

[Shifter]

In the meantime, I want to see Graham do something awesome with his year off, perhaps drive daddy's BMW at some point or head to LeMans 24 if possible.

[garyshell]

Not quite sure how to feel about this. It looks like it was Graham's choice to sit out this season, repeat GRAHAM's CHOICE.


Your title for this thread "Let's all feel sorry for Graham" is pathetic. Where has he cried about this or so much has given a single "oh woe is me" statement or cast any blame on anyone else? He stood up and made his decision and never once apologized for it. So stop putting words in his mouth.

Now to the heart of that decision:
Let's see, we have the one driver willing to spill the beans on Coyne's operation, PT, saying he doesn't know of a single driver who is not owed money by the team. Then we have Graham having a decent potential deal in the works for next year. And Coyne is digging in HIS heels that he will only offer Graham a two year deal. Then Coyne hires Milka as the driver who would be Graham's team mate, guaranteeing zero car setup info from a partner.

I'd say it looks like Graham made the absolutely correct decision to tell Coyne no. And did so without the crying that you are implying.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Your title for this thread "Let's all feel sorry for Graham" is pathetic. Where has he cried about this or so much has given a single "oh woe is me" statement or cast any blame on anyone else? He stood up and made his decision and never once apologized for it. So stop putting words in his mouth.

Now to the heart of that decision:
Let's see, we have the one driver willing to spill the beans on Coyne's operation, PT, saying he doesn't know of a single driver who is not owed money by the team. Then we have Graham having a decent potential deal in the works for next year. And Coyne is digging in HIS heels that he will only offer Graham a two year deal. Then Coyne hires Milka as the driver who would be Graham's team mate, guaranteeing zero car setup info from a partner.

I'd say it looks like Graham made the absolutely correct decision to tell Coyne no. And did so without the crying that you are implying.

Gary

HERE HERE!!! Good points indeed....

The sad reality is The only open seat was with Coyne, and if he pays Graham, (at least in theory, PT is right unless you see a libel suit from DC), then he wont have the money for a decent second driver. Milka likely has the ride anyhow. So Graham would be his own show, basically in a one car operation with limited resources. I think Dad pointed out to him a long time ago it is better to be paid if you can, and we all know Graham's best performances are in front of him. He is, as they say, a First round draft pick.....

[TURN3]

That is so Robinesque of you. The sky is falling and it's all TG's fault; oh wait, it's the sisters fault. The IRL is going under and EVERYBODY knows it.

I have to wonder why a team expands when it doesn't have sponsors? How many cars are going to be in Sao Paulo? Wish what you will but IndyCar, while by no mean healthy, is far from on it's last leg.

It's in the league's best interest to have Graham in a car, but one has to wonder how much effort has been expended when there are twenty other cars on the grid.

Where in my post did I mention TG? His sisters? The 2nd 2 paragraphs of your post virtualy double exactly what I said. If you don't have an intelligent original thought, don't post. That way you don't look foolish.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Where in my post did I mention TG? His sisters? The 2nd 2 paragraphs of your post virtualy double exactly what I said. If you don't have an intelligent original thought, don't post. That way you don't look foolish.

I was trying to figure out where you attacked TG and the Sisters too...lol...cant see it either but Wilf obviously reads something different.

[Nikki Katz]

I'm sure that I heard this last week some time from another source, not sure what though. I guess he thought that either Ganassi were going to add a 3rd car for him or he wants to go to NASCAR. Not sure either will happen. I don't really understand why, Coyne's won races, and it's not like he'd have a tough teammate that would make him look bad.

[garyshell]

I'm sure that I heard this last week some time from another source, not sure what though. I guess he thought that either Ganassi were going to add a 3rd car for him or he wants to go to NASCAR. Not sure either will happen. I don't really understand why, Coyne's won races, and it's not like he'd have a tough teammate that would make him look bad.

No Graham has said there is potential sponsor interest for 2011 with Ganassi or some other team, not this year. It was too late in the game when Carl Hass let Graham know, "Oh, BTW McDonald's won't be on as a sponsor, so you need to hit the streets and find some cash or we will give your ride to the first guy who does. See ya kid."

The ONLY mention of NASCAR for Graham has come from Robin Miller. Graham made it clear via twitter the following day, he had no such interest.

Coyne has won... yes once. And any good driver knows the importance of being paired up with another decent driver to share testing data with. It's not about being worried about being made to look bad. With the severely limited testing regimen, it's about the sharing of the info.

I have a lot of admiration for Coyne, this is no knock on him. But expecting to force Graham into a two year deal, knowing full well Graham has better opportunities in the works for next year was unconscionable. It reminds me of the crap that Forsythe pulled on Paul Tracy when the "merger" went down. There is NO excuse for such action.

Gary

[Wilf]

Where in my post did I mention TG? His sisters? The 2nd 2 paragraphs of your post virtualy double exactly what I said. If you don't have an intelligent original thought, don't post. That way you don't look foolish.

Maybe the reference to Robin was not appropriate but the similarity between his mantra and your points were too close. You didn't say anything about TG or the sisters.

Foolish is saying the sky is falling on IndyCar's head. Isn't it ironic that Penske expands his team when the world is coming to an end, OR maybe he does have some sponsors you aren't considering and he has some optimism for the series.

And maybe your opinion that
the ICS is next thing to foot in the grave is not well founded given the car count and added dollars by a series sponsor.

It's the third season since the "war" ended; did you think everything would be coming of roses? If you didn't understand the tv deal was going to be a slow growth option, the parties to the deal didn't say otherwise.

But then, I am willing to remain foolish because I don't have any original, intelligent thoughts. . . in your eyes.

[Mark in Oshawa]

No Graham has said there is potential sponsor interest for 2011 with Ganassi or some other team, not this year. It was too late in the game when Carl Hass let Graham know, "Oh, BTW McDonald's won't be on as a sponsor, so you need to hit the streets and find some cash or we will give your ride to the first guy who does. See ya kid."

The ONLY mention of NASCAR for Graham has come from Robin Miller. Graham made it clear via twitter the following day, he had no such interest.

Coyne has won... yes once. And any good driver knows the importance of being paired up with another decent driver to share testing data with. It's not about being worried about being made to look bad. With the severely limited testing regimen, it's about the sharing of the info.

I have a lot of admiration for Coyne, this is no knock on him. But expecting to force Graham into a two year deal, knowing full well Graham has better opportunities in the works for next year was unconscionable. It reminds me of the crap that Forsythe pulled on Paul Tracy when the "merger" went down. There is NO excuse for such action.

Gary

Coyne was gambling that Graham's desire to race would win out, and if Ganassi or Penske wanted the kid after a good year, Dale could extract a buy out. Dale rolled the dice.....and Graham isn't playing...

Good on Graham.

[djparky]

why would he want to race with a tail end charlie team?

the only people (realistically) who are going to win races this year (or next year) are those driving for CGR and Penske- AGR (or whatever they're called now)- may get a win with Kanaan, but neither Patrick or Marco are anything like good enough, unless they luck into it

without doubt the brightest moment in Indy Car these last few sorry years (for me anyway) was seeing Rahal win at St Petersburg in the first re-united race in 2008

anyway we'll see what happens- unless IZOD can pull off a marketing miracle IndyCar will simply continue being an irrelevance to Joe Bloggs (with or without Rahal) until someone finally pulls the plug on it once and for all

[garyshell]

why would he want to race with a tail end charlie team?

I think Graham might have been willing to do so, if Coyne had agreed to a one year deal.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think Graham might have been willing to do so, if Coyne had agreed to a one year deal.

Gary

Well it says a lot about Dale's gamesmenship. He isn't going to get a BETTER driver in that seat, but he wanted the 2 years so he could get paid for giving him up if/when Ganassi or Penske wanted Graham.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Could you (and others) post the link substantiating that claim? ;)

Starter, it is my opinion, and why else would Dale want to tie up some young driver like Graham for TWO years when the series may even fold next year? Heck of a gamble aint it? It would be what I would do in Coyne's shoes if I had the chance. You know if Graham gets interest from Penske or Ganassi at some point, if you have a piece, you can make your money back. Dale isn't stupid....he was gambling Graham wanted to race bad enough to sign for 2 years. If he doesn't, oh well, but why else would he not come back for a one year deal then?

[turbofan]

I'll bet with in seventy two hours there is an annoucement on Graham, and the bull rider did not do it. Hard work did. ;)

[Wilf]

Starter, it is my opinion, and why else would Dale want to tie up some young driver like Graham for TWO years when the series may even fold next year?

What signs have you seen that makes you believe things are worse now than a year ago?

[Scotty G.]

What signs have you seen that makes you believe things are worse now than a year ago?

Versus
Danica heading to NASCAR full-time soon
Very few American drivers in either Indy Lights or Indy Car
Atlantics is toast
Very few sponsors anywhere, that weren't brought to teams by ride-buyers

[Wilf]

Versus
Danica heading to NASCAR full-time soon
Very few American drivers in either Indy Lights or Indy Car
Atlantics is toast
Very few sponsors anywhere, that weren't brought to teams by ride-buyers

Do you remember having to go to a tavern to watch NASCAR? It didn't grow to being the 800 lb gorilla overnight. I doubt IndyCar will ever grow to NASCAR figures, but one million viewers is doable for the regular races in four to six years if IZOD and Versus continue to push for it.

Danica is still in IndyCar for at least two years. She is a capable driver but it is going to be a slow process for any open wheeler to move into the taxies.

The death of Atlantics will have no negative effect on IndyCar and may help FIL.

Sponsors will come back when the economy recovers.

That being said, maybe the momentum I am seeing is just that boost you feel an engine give before it blows, but I don't think so.

[Mark in Oshawa]

What signs have you seen that makes you believe things are worse now than a year ago?

Wilf, the series just dumped Tony George over the side for spending too much of the family dough. It kicked him off the board at IMS as well. Mari and the sisters still own this thing, but they are not spending money like Tony did to keep it a float. If this series doesn't start to make headway on ratings, advertisers and interest, you explain to me why it will be here 10 years from now under the current market.

I don't WANT this series to die, I love it but quite frankly, it is obvious the Hulman family will not be spending the money on it like it was spent last year. It HAS to pay its own way. Show me the evidence where things have changed enough for you to believe that. Tony was dumped last year for spending too much money keeping this beast afloat. What has changed to indicate that they have NEW money coming in that they didn't have pretty much lined up last year? IZOD was announced but that was in the works when Tony was kicked to the curb. No, we need to see something else for anyone to believe the bottom line has changed.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Why does any NFL, NBA, MLB, NASCAR, F1, etc. team want to sign players/drivers to long term contracts? To insure stability over a period of time. To add value to sponsors, like the BSA. To provide a base for selling additional sponsors. To allow all of the team an opportunity to form close working relationships.

That might be true Starter, but this is Dale Coyne, and he is the master of survival. Has ever had a regular PAY driver (not receiving the check to supply the ride) of any note for more than one year? Graham wasn't going to be tied up for 2 years and miss a chance maybe a year from now to go to Ganassi or Penske, and I am sure the stance his agent had was give us an out clause only if Roger or Chip calls. Dale could have done that I am sure, and gambled, but chose to hold out of the 2 years. He has underestimated Graham's determination to land a quality ride, and while Dale is better now than he has been, it isn't a championship quality team or even remotely close.

I can make the supposition as I did that it was a good gamble for Dale, because he knew if someone wanted Graham enough, he could get paid for releasing them. It happens all the time in NASCAR and you can bet it had to be a factor in the offer from Dale. No one is ever really held under contract forever if someone wants that asset bad enough...

[TURN3]

I just had a thought related to Coyne. Who was it that was in the middle of a season with Coyne, ChampCar era, and left mid-season for another team? Was it Servia when he went to replace Junky at NH? No particular point to make on the matter, just curious.

[Wilf]

Wilf, the series just dumped Tony George over the side for spending too much of the family dough. It kicked him off the board at IMS as well. Mari and the sisters still own this thing, but they are not spending money like Tony did to keep it a float. If this series doesn't start to make headway on ratings, advertisers and interest, you explain to me why it will be here 10 years from now under the current market.

I don't WANT this series to die, I love it but quite frankly, it is obvious the Hulman family will not be spending the money on it like it was spent last year. It HAS to pay its own way. Show me the evidence where things have changed enough for you to believe that. Tony was dumped last year for spending too much money keeping this beast afloat. What has changed to indicate that they have NEW money coming in that they didn't have pretty much lined up last year? IZOD was announced but that was in the works when Tony was kicked to the curb. No, we need to see something else for anyone to believe the bottom line has changed.

All right, I see what you are trying to do; sucker me into spending more than an hour a day on Indycar forums. Hehehehe. It might work.

Anyway, the family has okayed TG's spending for 14 years. IMHO his dismissal and resignation was over the kingdom he had erected: the jets, the employees and the cold fish way he goes about doing what he thinks has to be done. The family decided he was too into his extravagances and not the family. When he was told to take his wife off of the payroll he should have seen the end coming.

They have too much invested to throw it away now. Jeffery Belskus has a firm grip on the purse strings and Randy Bernard didn't walk away from the bull riders without a pretty good contract guarantying he had a three to five year future.

If those three are true Bernard has at least three years to make the Versus deal begin to make sense to advertisers; I'm guessing that means 700,000 or more viewers for a series race and better numbers for Indy. I'm sure there are posters who can tell us what reasonable viewership is.

As far as Dale Coyne not paying his employees, be they drivers or mechanics, I'm sure we could find a better source than Paul Tracy and the reverse is also true about the lack of a libel suit, where are the suits against Coyne?

The reason Coyne would insist on a two year contract is because he doesn't have a sponsor to cover this year so he needs an additional year and a sponsor to be found to recoup the money he would have to spend this year. It makes perfect sense to me.

However, it would not have been a good choice for young Mr. Rahal. Dale lost his engineer, who was the reason why his team had improved so much last year and with having to pay Graham $600K, he would have been hard pressed to come up with another winning engineer.

Ok, times up.

[Scotty G.]

They have too much invested to throw it away now. Jeffery Belskus has a firm grip on the purse strings and Randy Bernard didn't walk away from the bull riders without a pretty good contract guarantying he had a three to five year future.




What do they have invested? There isn't much left worth "saving" anyway. The only thing worth saving is IMS and the history/heritage of the Indy 500, but its not totally imperative that a Indy Car Racing series has to be solvent to run the Indy 500 race anyway. As long as the Hulman's family event is selling its tickets and putting on a good show on Memorial Day weekend, that is all that really matters. The Hulman's don't give 2 rips about Brazil, St. Pete or Toronto.

Belskus knows and cares next-to-nothing about racing as is only in charge to count beans. He could just as easily leave for something better tomorrow.

Lets be honest... Bernard left one minor league sport, for another minor league sport. Its not like he left the NFL or even the NHL. He probably got a nice pay increase to take this job. His ONLY job, truthfully, is to find sponsorship. Sponsorship that most team owners in this sport either don't have a clue how to get or are too lazy/arrogant to go out and find on their own. Which with a poor TV contract, embarrassing TV ratings, very limited American media/consumer interest and miniscule numbers of American drivers, in a global recession nonetheless, is asking a whole lot of Mr. Bernard.

I give the man all the well wishes on this one. He better be REAL good, to turn things around.

[Wilf]

What do they have invested? There isn't much left worth "saving" anyway. The only thing worth saving is IMS and the history/heritage of the Indy 500, but its not totally imperative that a Indy Car Racing series has to be solvent to run the Indy 500 race anyway. As long as the Hulman's family event is selling its tickets and putting on a good show on Memorial Day weekend, that is all that really matters. The Hulman's don't give 2 rips about Brazil, St. Pete or Toronto.

Belskus knows and cares next-to-nothing about racing as is only in charge to count beans. He could just as easily leave for something better tomorrow.

Lets be honest... Bernard left one minor league sport, for another minor league sport. Its not like he left the NFL or even the NHL. He probably got a nice pay increase to take this job. His ONLY job, truthfully, is to find sponsorship. Sponsorship that most team owners in this sport either don't have a clue how to get or are too lazy/arrogant to go out and find on their own. Which with a poor TV contract, embarrassing TV ratings, very limited American media/consumer interest and miniscule numbers of American drivers, in a global recession nonetheless, is asking a whole lot of Mr. Bernard.

I give the man all the well wishes on this one. He better be REAL good, to turn things around.

I agree of much of what you said except I have to go back to my original premise, TG convinced the family that the IRL was necessary to ensure there were sufficient entries for the 500. As long as they continue to believe that, they need to continue to support it until they can sell or spin it off. I believe they see it as a necesary evil until someone can show them otherwise. They hired Randy Bernard to make that possible.

I too hope he is VERY good.

[Mark in Oshawa]

What do they have invested? There isn't much left worth "saving" anyway. The only thing worth saving is IMS and the history/heritage of the Indy 500, but its not totally imperative that a Indy Car Racing series has to be solvent to run the Indy 500 race anyway. As long as the Hulman's family event is selling its tickets and putting on a good show on Memorial Day weekend, that is all that really matters. The Hulman's don't give 2 rips about Brazil, St. Pete or Toronto..
With that sort of thinking, it isn't tough to see why my initial assessment of TG still holds. All he ever really cared about was IMS and couldn't grasp that his precious race needed a healthy series around it until of course, he had the series and it was bleeding red ink. The Hulman family allowed this idiot to run the sport into the toilet and now they are reaping the rewards for it. As for them not giving 2 rips about other races, they should now, because they have been carrying the can for them. The IRL is theirs just like the IMS and the 500 are theirs, and the last I Looked, neither had the Prestege they had just 20 years ago.


Belskus knows and cares next-to-nothing about racing as is only in charge to count beans. He could just as easily leave for something better tomorrow..He can count? Good, because no one was counting for all those years of red ink.


Lets be honest... Bernard left one minor league sport, for another minor league sport. Its not like he left the NFL or even the NHL. He probably got a nice pay increase to take this job. His ONLY job, truthfully, is to find sponsorship. Sponsorship that most team owners in this sport either don't have a clue how to get or are too lazy/arrogant to go out and find on their own. Which with a poor TV contract, embarrassing TV ratings, very limited American media/consumer interest and miniscule numbers of American drivers, in a global recession nonetheless, is asking a whole lot of Mr. Bernard..

Team owners are too lazy or arrogant? You must have your head so far up your you know where. What would you know about the struggles someone like a Carl Haas is having right now? Roger Penske cant get a sponsor right now. Last I looked, you didn't own an Indycar team. I also notice you haven't a clue obviously about why team owners are taking checks to put the likes of Milka Duno behind the wheel. THAT Is what they have to do because your hero ran this franchise off the road.

Bernhard put a weird and non politically correct sport like Bull riding on the map, and if he can do that, he should be able to help the IRL.


I give the man all the well wishes on this one. He better be REAL good, to turn things around.

BE the first intelligent thing you have said in that post....

[Mark in Oshawa]

All right, I see what you are trying to do; sucker me into spending more than an hour a day on Indycar forums. Hehehehe. It might work.

Anyway, the family has okayed TG's spending for 14 years. IMHO his dismissal and resignation was over the kingdom he had erected: the jets, the employees and the cold fish way he goes about doing what he thinks has to be done. The family decided he was too into his extravagances and not the family. When he was told to take his wife off of the payroll he should have seen the end coming..

They should have seen all that coming a long time ago. Believe me, he sold them on this working, and they let him do what he wanted for 14 years. It was obvious to many in 94 this was where it could end up. I felt it then, I saw it happen. His wife on the payroll wouldn't have mattered if he was right on things but he wasn't. He destroyed his most precious franchise and made it just a race with a much greater past than present.


They have too much invested to throw it away now. Jeffery Belskus has a firm grip on the purse strings and Randy Bernard didn't walk away from the bull riders without a pretty good contract guarantying he had a three to five year future.

If those three are true Bernard has at least three years to make the Versus deal begin to make sense to advertisers; I'm guessing that means 700,000 or more viewers for a series race and better numbers for Indy. I'm sure there are posters who can tell us what reasonable viewership is..

Oh they are in it to win it now. No two ways about that....and I am going to say I hope they make it. Smart managers were never part of the IRL landscape and CART's landscape from about 95 on either....


As far as Dale Coyne not paying his employees, be they drivers or mechanics, I'm sure we could find a better source than Paul Tracy and the reverse is also true about the lack of a libel suit, where are the suits against Coyne?

The reason Coyne would insist on a two year contract is because he doesn't have a sponsor to cover this year so he needs an additional year and a sponsor to be found to recoup the money he would have to spend this year. It makes perfect sense to me.

However, it would not have been a good choice for young Mr. Rahal. Dale lost his engineer, who was the reason why his team had improved so much last year and with having to pay Graham $600K, he would have been hard pressed to come up with another winning engineer.

Ok, times up.

Coyne I don't think is a bad guy, but PT didn't spout that because of some lie, he did it because he obviously knows something that went down.

Coyne lost his engineer? Well there is yet another reason as you pointed out.

The sad reality is Graham is on the outside looking in because the top seats are locked up, and it is better to be a great driver looking for work, than a great driver losing his rep on a team that cannot support him...

[Scotty G.]

1. Team owners are too lazy or arrogant? You must have your head so far up your you know where. What would you know about the struggles someone like a Carl Haas is having right now? Roger Penske cant get a sponsor right now. Last I looked, you didn't own an Indycar team. I also notice you haven't a clue obviously about why team owners are taking checks to put the likes of Milka Duno behind the wheel. THAT Is what they have to do because your hero ran this franchise off the road.

2. Bernhard put a weird and non politically correct sport like Bull riding on the map




1. I know EXACTLY what is going on. Indy Car team owners are AWFUL at finding money on their own. What sponsors have Carl Haas found in the past 15 years? How about Derrick Walker? He hasn't found a sponsor on his own in years. Dale Coyne is the king of taking ridebuyer money. The great Gerald Forsythe was lost when the Canadian smoker dollars went away.

All most of these guys want to do, is sit back on their ass and wait for a driver to bring a check to them. That is the way of doing business at all levels of formula car racing. Let the drivers hire the teams. Maybe its why most formula car series eventually go out of business.

These people are supposed to be running PROFESSIONAL racing operations. They are supposed to be able to find money to HIRE drivers for their race teams. That is what is so royally screwed up about this sport. These fools need to wake up and get serious about their race teams and start building something. Most are just content to take a check and try to keep the doors open for another year. Maybe that is the reason the distance between the haves (Penske and Ganassi) and everybody else is so great and getting bigger by the year.

Who is my hero? ZMy "hero" was an idiot too. He fit right in. But, without my "hero's" family, there is no Indy Car racing in this country. IMS would have been destroyed after WWII. We'll see how long this thing lasts, without my "hero's" involvement in the sport. We'll see how long some of these teams last, without my "hero's" funding.

And this "franchise" had a hell of lot more wrong with it, then TG. It was going to run itself off the road. But blaming TG for everything is the convenient excuse that most ignorant Indy Car fans like to use, when they are blind to the realities of the situation. Now that he is gone, I am sure interest and popularity will go off the charts. Of course when it doesn't, who are people going to blame? Can't blame "the split" much longer, can you?

Again, Mr. Bernard better be reallllllly good. ;)


2. On the map? Its a minor league, extreme niche sport, on Versus. Lets not go crazy here.

[TURN3]

With the rumors getting stronger and stronger that Graham will be part timing for Ganassi this year, this entire situation is looking more and more familiar to what Will Power went through last year. I've eluded to this before but even by throwing away a shot at a championship this year, a part time gig at Ganassi or Penskie is probably better than a full-time gig anywhere else. Certainly has paid off for Will, hopefully Graham too. Time will tell.

[SarahFan]

a part time gig at Ganassi or Penskie is probably better than a full-time gig anywhere else. .


probably?

[TURN3]

probably?

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm just thinking where do you draw the line between Class A part time and Class B full time. Obviously Graham would've taken full time at NHL if things were they way we all know they should be. This will work out in Graham's favor in the long run if you ask me.

[Mark in Oshawa]

1. I know EXACTLY what is going on. Indy Car team owners are AWFUL at finding money on their own. What sponsors have Carl Haas found in the past 15 years? How about Derrick Walker? He hasn't found a sponsor on his own in years. Dale Coyne is the king of taking ridebuyer money. The great Gerald Forsythe was lost when the Canadian smoker dollars went away.

All most of these guys want to do, is sit back on their ass and wait for a driver to bring a check to them. That is the way of doing business at all levels of formula car racing. Let the drivers hire the teams. Maybe its why most formula car series eventually go out of business. .

You of course would know all about this after owning your own team? Working PR or sales for a team? How about driving for a team? Did none of those? Thought so...you are just spouting your opinion so it fits with the template that the team owners are all idiots because they wont hire your American kids over some Brazilian with a 5 million dollar check.

Forsythe didn't look too hard for sponsors in my opinion, but I suspect most of the owners have done a lot of knocking on doors over the last few years. You think Andretti, and the Green's before them had Motorola approach them? 7 Eleven just showed up one day and said "Give us the funny Brazilian guy with the big nose?" C' Mon Scott, it isn't that simple. As for your assertion Carl didn't look for sponsors, may I remind you he didn't have to when he was a partner with Paul Newman who got him all the sponsors he needed. Paul did the schmooze.....


These people are supposed to be running PROFESSIONAL racing operations. They are supposed to be able to find money to HIRE drivers for their race teams. That is what is so royally screwed up about this sport. These fools need to wake up and get serious about their race teams and start building something. Most are just content to take a check and try to keep the doors open for another year. Maybe that is the reason the distance between the haves (Penske and Ganassi) and everybody else is so great and getting bigger by the year..
They of coruse know nothing about owning a race team and you do? Penske I suspect is spending some of his NASCAR dollars to keep his Indycars afloat. Their Tobacco dough is gone now too..and I don't see another sponsor ont he side pod. When Roger Penske cant find sponsors, that tells me more than your ridiculous assertions.


Who is my hero? ZMy "hero" was an idiot too. He fit right in. But, without my "hero's" family, there is no Indy Car racing in this country. IMS would have been destroyed after WWII. We'll see how long this thing lasts, without my "hero's" involvement in the sport. We'll see how long some of these teams last, without my "hero's" funding.

And this "franchise" had a hell of lot more wrong with it, then TG. It was going to run itself off the road. But blaming TG for everything is the convenient excuse that most ignorant Indy Car fans like to use, when they are blind to the realities of the situation. Now that he is gone, I am sure interest and popularity will go off the charts. Of course when it doesn't, who are people going to blame? Can't blame "the split" much longer, can you?

Again, Mr. Bernard better be reallllllly good. ;) .

I call Tony George your hero because he is the guy who created the IRL so ostensibly all those American Sprint Car drivers would have a route to the Indy 500 and ignore all those evil car owners who ran CART to benefit themselves.

AS for saying his family saved the sport....ummm Tony Hulman saved the Indy 500 and that was it. The series that came from Indy Car racing was the owners looking for races to run besides Indy so they could make more money or race more than once a year. Tony Hulman was smart enough to let USAC and later CART do what they did.....Tony George was not. As for Tony's funding, the sport didn't need it when he created the IRL...but he did after he damn near killed the sport. Tony wasn't saving the sport; he made a power play and instead of being a respected fish in a big pond, he became the big fish in a small pond, and then Mari hooked him and removed him from the pond.



2. On the map? Its a minor league, extreme niche sport, on Versus. Lets not go crazy here.

It was major league in 95. Ratings equal NASCAR. Don't go there Scott....

[SarahFan]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm just thinking where do you draw the line between Class A part time and Class B full time. Obviously Graham would've taken full time at NHL if things were they way we all know they should be. This will work out in Graham's favor in the long run if you ask me.


his being all gung ho about climbing behind the wheel of DW cant be hurting his chances either......

cant see dario ever racing one

[ykiki]

It was major league in 95. Ratings equal NASCAR. Don't go there Scott....

Obviously I'm on the outside looking in on your debate with Scott, but I read his "niche sport on Versus" comment as a reference to Bull Riding and not pre-split CART.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Obviously I'm on the outside looking in on your debate with Scott, but I read his "niche sport on Versus" comment as a reference to Bull Riding and not pre-split CART.

Oh he is referring now to the IRL. He is mad at the world apparently for the current state of affairs. He is mad especially at the team owners because they are all idiots and ran this sport into the sewer and wont hire Americans to drive because they are all idiots in love with Brazilians. Or something like that.....

Quite frankly, I am never entirely sure what his point is because he can attack the owners of the cars for days at a time, and then state in the next breath how run down the ratings are....as if the owners had ANYTHING to do with THAT. Basically, it is all someone's fault....just not his....

The reality is, the IRL is lucky if it isn't the 5th most popular racing series in America. It could be 6th or even 7th......whereas CART in 92 was even or a head of NASCAR's Winston Cup and was stealing people from f1.......so at some point, someone dropped the ball. Scott and I just disagree on who. I think history will prove my assertions right...

[Scotty G.]

1. Oh he is referring now to the IRL.

2. He is mad especially at the team owners because they are all idiots and ran this sport into the sewer and wont hire Americans to drive because they are all idiots in love with Brazilians. Or something like that.....

3. CART in 92 was even or a head of NASCAR's Winston Cup and was stealing people from f1


1. No Mark. I was referring to Mr. Bernard coming from Bull Riding, which is a minor league, niche sport.

2. Yes, most of them are idiots, when it comes to racing. Most of them are snakes and not in it for the betterment of the sport. Most of them don't have a clue why THEIR sport is in the crapper and have no clue how to make it work in this country. Most of them have proven to be completely worthless, in finding funding for THEIR race teams. They are great at blaming others. Blame Tony George. Blame "the split". Blame NASCAR. Blame ABC/ESPN. Blame Versus. Blame Direct TV. Blame the fans. Blame the economy. Blame everyone and everything, except themselves. They are the ones who are putting nondescript and unmarkeable drivers in THEIR cars and wonder why nobody watches or cares anymore. They are the ones, who relied on CART or Honda or Toyota or Tony George or Kevin Kalkhoven to fund their teams for years. Them. The owners. Most of whom have been around for decades, still making the same bonheaded decisions they made years ago.

3. No CART in 1992, was already falling behind NASCAR. Anyone who thinks it was all "the split's" fault for why NASCAR took off, is living in fantasy land. NASCAR had already taken off LONG before 1996. Long before. The split hurt. No question. But if you think Jeff Gordon, Dale Sr, Dale Jr, Rusty Wallace, Tony Stewart, Mark Martin, Dale Jarrett and Bill Elliott were going to play 2nd fiddle to Mauricio Gugelmin, Gil DeFerren, Eliseo Salazar, Hiro Matsu****a, Patrick Carpentier, Michel Jourdain and Andre Ribeiro (with American drivers playing a smaller and smaller part of the series even in 1995; compared to 1990 and 1985 and 1980) you are clueless.

And who did CART "steal" from F1? Guys who weren't good enough for F1? Guys whose cash wouldn't spend in F1? F1 test drivers, looking for a fulltime gig? Guys at the end of their F1 careers (Piquet, Mansell, Fittipaldi) looking for work and a different challenge?

Just like today, AOW gets F1's leftovers and those left in the trashbin. Or maybe you think F1 was really hot after EJ Viso, Mario Moraes, Hideki Mutoh, Rafael Matos, Vitor Meira or Will Power? :p :

[Mark in Oshawa]

1. No Mark. I was referring to Mr. Bernard coming from Bull Riding, which is a minor league, niche sport.

2. Yes, most of them are idiots, when it comes to racing. Most of them are snakes and not in it for the betterment of the sport. Most of them don't have a clue why THEIR sport is in the crapper and have no clue how to make it work in this country. Most of them have proven to be completely worthless, in finding funding for THEIR race teams. They are great at blaming others. Blame Tony George. Blame "the split". Blame NASCAR. Blame ABC/ESPN. Blame Versus. Blame Direct TV. Blame the fans. Blame the economy. Blame everyone and everything, except themselves. They are the ones who are putting nondescript and unmarkeable drivers in THEIR cars and wonder why nobody watches or cares anymore. They are the ones, who relied on CART or Honda or Toyota or Tony George or Kevin Kalkhoven to fund their teams for years. Them. The owners. Most of whom have been around for decades, still making the same bonheaded decisions they made years ago.

3. No CART in 1992, was already falling behind NASCAR. Anyone who thinks it was all "the split's" fault for why NASCAR took off, is living in fantasy land. NASCAR had already taken off LONG before 1996. Long before. The split hurt. No question. But if you think Jeff Gordon, Dale Sr, Dale Jr, Rusty Wallace, Tony Stewart, Mark Martin, Dale Jarrett and Bill Elliott were going to play 2nd fiddle to Mauricio Gugelmin, Gil DeFerren, Eliseo Salazar, Hiro Matsu****a, Patrick Carpentier, Michel Jourdain and Andre Ribeiro (with American drivers playing a smaller and smaller part of the series even in 1995; compared to 1990 and 1985 and 1980) you are clueless.

And who did CART "steal" from F1? Guys who weren't good enough for F1? Guys whose cash wouldn't spend in F1? F1 test drivers, looking for a fulltime gig? Guys at the end of their F1 careers (Piquet, Mansell, Fittipaldi) looking for work and a different challenge?

Just like today, AOW gets F1's leftovers and those left in the trashbin. Or maybe you think F1 was really hot after EJ Viso, Mario Moraes, Hideki Mutoh, Rafael Matos, Vitor Meira or Will Power? :p :

Scotty, Arguing with you is a waste of time. that said, I will post a poll question and see what the rest of the boys think.....I am wagering I am in the majority. Your arrogant view has always been they signed all these drivers over Americans for purely stupid reasons....and last I looked, survival was not stupid.....IT is up to the series to be well run, not the team owners.