The first ACTUAL pic of the DeltaWing

[gofastandwynn]

Sort of...

http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/userfiles/image/Blog%2010/DeltaWing.jpg

from http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/multimedia/blog/index.asp

[ykiki]

She looks nice in red. :D

[Chamoo]

It's odd that there are three bumps in the cover. You would expect one at the rear for the rear wing, one for the roll hoop, and thats it. Atleast thats my opinion.

Anyone thinking the same thing?

[DBell]

It's odd that there are three bumps in the cover. You would expect one at the rear for the rear wing, one for the roll hoop, and thats it. Atleast thats my opinion.

Anyone thinking the same thing?

It looks like to me that this was done on purpose to better disguise the shape of the car.

[gofastandwynn]

It's odd that there are three bumps in the cover. You would expect one at the rear for the rear wing, one for the roll hoop, and thats it. Atleast thats my opinion.

Anyone thinking the same thing?

I am betting that the car is sitting at a 30 degree angle, so the first bump is the front tire with another located directly below it in the photo.

Plus I bet that last bump is more of a fin than a wing

[seamusoldfield]

Really excited to see this. Tomorrow, right?

[garyshell]

I am betting that the car is sitting at a 30 degree angle, so the first bump is the front tire with another located directly below it in the photo.

Plus I bet that last bump is more of a fin than a wing

I think you nailed it.

Gary

[SUBARUTEAM]

the more i think about it, the more i would love to see competition among the manufacturers. this spec racing is far too controlled by the IRL and has lead to some boring racing. here's hoping although i don't hold out too much hope

[gofastandwynn]

OK, these were renderings that were up on a indy blog then were taken down.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4344651957_006d250fbe_o.jpg

[gofastandwynn]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2775/4344651973_27d1440916_o.jpg

[gofastandwynn]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4344652021_07a6fb42ac_o.jpg

[garyshell]

Here is a quote from Graham's twitter account:


GrahamRahal: Had a great dinner with the designers of the new delta wing indycar! Saw the design, this will without a doubt be what rejuvenates indycar!

Gary

[SarahFan]

I don't thnk that's it ....look at the mockup that's covered with the red drape.... Clearly there are two front tires seperTed from the chassis


And interesting that young Rahal is having dinner with folks from gannasi racing.....

[gofastandwynn]

I don't thnk that's it ....look at the mockup that's covered with the red drape.... Clearly there are two front tires seperTed from the chassis


And interesting that young Rahal is having dinner with folks from gannasi racing.....

While I do hope so, if you look at the lines around the rear wheels are pretty close to that the tarp shows, so I am betting it is not far off

[SarahFan]

I also think it's close .... But not quit

[NickFalzone]

hard to be sure of a hell of a lot with that big red tarp over it, particularly since there are clearly brackets or stands that are there and not part of the car at all. That said, the right 2/3rds of the car does look a lot like the CG models shown. And as far as the CG mockups, I like them. Kind of funny to me how they were apparently told "3 wheels is not a racecar", so they just said "fine", and took that front wheel and split it into 2 wheels just ever so slightly apart. It's a cool looking car that, while it may be full of engineering issues I as a layman am not aware of, I think it has a fresh and powerful design to it that would appeal to a casual racing fan.

As far as Rahal/Ganassi, I find it hard to believe that he's not in the process of working some deal out with them. He was in Minnesota (home of Target) last month for a "corporate business meeting" that he denied was Target. And now he was specifically invited by someone inside Bowlby/TCG to get an early view of the Delta design today, and will probably be there for the unveiling tomorrow. Someone earlier said RLR could come back. I can imagine Graham doing regular series races with RLR, and Indy and a race or two with TCG. Hard to turn that down.

[jackmart]

idk how I get so lost but first thing I heard of this delta wing thing was on Grahams twitter. Is a new wing that will be on all cars this year?

How is this delta wing stuff tied to TCG?

[ChicagocrewIRL]

With that short front axle, how in the world is that thing gonna get through a tight hairpin ?

[SarahFan]

With that short front axle, how in the world is that thing gonna get through a tight hairpin ?


I posted the exact thing on another forum....

plus.....picture the tracy/helio melee at toronto last year.... no way that car is racy in the same fashion...


mix in young rahals comments via twitter.....i just dont see a racer who has literally spent his entire life in AOWR lokking at that car and making the statement he did...

[ShiftingGears]

Well, 3-point turns around hairpins will prove interesting.

[beachbum]

They certainly must be joking. 2 skinny tires set close together just doesn't look like the hot set up for anything with turns. Can you spell "understeer"? Indy isn't Bonneville.

Dumbest race car design I have ever seen for anything with turns. It looks like a single seater sidecar. They must REALLY want to kill open wheel racing.

But if the tarp is any indication, the actual mockup has a much shorter wheelbase and much wider front track. Perhaps some sanity prevailed.

[electron]

This it "it"???
this rendering is massvie bull.

if GR really thinks this rejuvinates something he should be banned from open wheel (go figure..) for life. sorry.

this looks like a crossbreed from a F-106 with a Top Fuel... each in itself quite awe aspiring but this "contraption" is a waste...of everything.

so i strongly believe that under the red sheed is something more evolved than the rendering. just has to be. If this is going to be indycar, i will leave for good.

thats me always saying it is not the cars but the drivers that make or break success... in this case I would make an exception.

[champcarray]

Thanks for posting the "red car cover" photo. I didn't realize the car was going to be publicly revealed this week. Given how unattractive and/or impractical the previously posted Dallara deisgns/renderings have been, I'm curious about what the full-size mock up will look like.

[Mark in Oshawa]

We don't know much more than we did before. The pic that we did see of the narrow arrow car was just a red herring I suspect. No one serious would put that thing anywhere but Bonneville....

[garyshell]

I posted the exact thing on another forum....

plus.....picture the tracy/helio melee at toronto last year.... no way that car is racy in the same fashion...


mix in young rahals comments via twitter.....i just dont see a racer who has literally spent his entire life in AOWR lokking at that car and making the statement he did...


You are making a HUGE assumption that the designs he saw were the same as those pictures. There is no way that those pictures are the Delta Wing design. Someone is having a really good laugh that a bunch of suckers actually fell for the joke.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

I didn't Gary....and I doubt anyone who was really honest would either...

[garyshell]

I didn't Gary....and I doubt anyone who was really honest would either...


I think you are right, but with all the hubub raised in this thread it APPEARS folks are talking those renderings seriously.

Gary

[nigelred5]

No effin way that design would ever get the green light for any type of circuit race car. Of course they did hire a bullrider to run the show, so there's plenty of bull being flung around. I hear they are trying to decide who's gonna be the next series spokeperson, Gary Breedlove or Art Arfons. ;)

[Chamoo]

Delta Wing Website and Countdown (http://www.deltawingracing.com/construction.html)

In the photo on this site, you can easily see the wheel base is much wider then those so apparent computer generated images.

[vintage]

Speed says that is really the car - it's hideous.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

I think you are right, but with all the hubub raised in this thread it APPEARS folks are talking those renderings seriously.

Gary


Sometimes it's rather difficult to convey sarcasm in written words without the benefit of voice inflections and facial expressions.

No one who has any clue about the sport would take those drawrings :) seriously.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Speed says that is really the car - it's hideous.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-inside-the-delta-wing-project/

Gadzooks!!! sadly I think you may be right. Give me the Swift designs over the Dallara and this monstrosity any day. GAG GAG GAG

[NickFalzone]

Sometimes it's rather difficult to convey sarcasm in written words without the benefit of voice inflections and facial expressions.

No one who has any clue about the sport would take those drawrings :) seriously.

haha, i like the look of the 3D models, and now it turns out the real prototype design looks identical. Apparently it's controversial, which is a good thing imo. More than you can say about the bland indy car designs of the last 20 years which for the most part you can barely tell apart, certainly look identical to more casual fans. I do like the Swift design with the lighting indicators and the variable bodywork, but in its own way this design could be pretty cool. It's good as even those that dislike a new design are talking about the car and the series.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rah0RSIEVC8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rah0RSIEVC8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Lousada]

Delta Wing Website and Countdown (http://www.deltawingracing.com/construction.html)

In the photo on this site, you can easily see the wheel base is much wider then those so apparent computer generated images.

"sorry you are too late" LOL

[SarahFan]

You are making a HUGE assumption that the designs he saw were the same as those pictures. There is no way that those pictures are the Delta Wing design. Someone is having a really good laugh that a bunch of suckers actually fell for the joke.

Gary

Gary.......do ever actually read what people write before you argue with them?

[Lousada]

So now we have 'crapwagons' and from 2012 we have 'peniswagons'? This Delta Wing car is really ugly in my opinion. It sure is radical though.

[SoCalPVguy]

OK, these were renderings that were up on a indy blog then were taken down.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4344651957_006d250fbe_o.jpg

Hope that's NOT it - now way the darn think will turn !!! Road course ? Fuggetabouit.

[garyshell]

mix in young rahals comments via twitter.....i just dont see a racer who has literally spent his entire life in AOWR lokking at that car and making the statement he did...


You are making a HUGE assumption that the designs he saw were the same as those pictures. There is no way that those pictures are the Delta Wing design. Someone is having a really good laugh that a bunch of suckers actually fell for the joke.

Gary


Gary.......do ever actually read what people write before you argue with them?


I read EXACTLY what you wrote above. Please tell me how what you wrote was NOT assuming that what Graham Rahal saw was the same as the renderings posted.

But now it appears that the joke is on all of us and the leaked renderings are the actual car. Yikes! I don't see how the front wheels can steer. Looks like a salt flats car to me.

Gary

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Does anyone have pics or links from the Chicago Auto Show unveiling ?

THIS Delta Wing Car IS NOT AN INDYCAR. All the heritage and logical evolution of IndyCar design IMO DOES NOT go this direction. Keep this design in ALMS or sports car racing. GAG GAG GAG.

never mind got the links from pressdog

[Lousada]

Hope that's NOT it - now way the darn think will turn !!! Road course ? Fuggetabouit.

It is that.
Here is an interview with the designer:
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-inside-the-delta-wing-project/
The ideas behind it are great: better mileage and fewer parts. But really, 33 of these things together will look slightly ridiculous.
I also wonder how much the other closed wheel designs archieve these goals.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It is curious....I tried to get to the story on the IRL website and I couldn't get the story to pop up so either they are swamped or they don't want to admit they are taking this seriously.

I read the interview with Robin Miller and if you only read the article you would think Ken is thinking outside the box and is a really forward thinker BUT then you see the picture..and it doesn't LOOK like it would work. I watched the simulation and I just refuse to believe a car with that narrow track in the front would generate the G-forces needed to be credible.

It is however something I would love to see in a prototype to hit the track, because if you READ what Bowlby is trying to achieve, he is trying to answer all our concerns. If this car did all of that...then it is truly an earthshattering design...I just don't believe it without seeing the car on the track.

[nigelred5]

Great, Ace and Gary go Indycar Racing!

http://puntabulous.com/wp-content/aceandgary.JPG

[Hoss Ghoul]

It's not going to be hard for IndyCar and Barnhardt to chose a competing design over this team-owners project.

Bitchin' soap box derby car though.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Does anyone have pics or links from the Chicago Auto Show unveiling ?

THIS Delta Wing Car IS NOT AN INDYCAR. All the heritage and logical evolution of IndyCar design IMO DOES NOT go this direction. Keep this design in ALMS or sports car racing. GAG GAG GAG.

never mind got the links from pressdog

Was the Turbine car an Indy car? Was Brabham's Cooper in 61 an Indycar? People at the Speedway said no, but both were outside the box thinking. The Cooper changed the destiny of the Speedway forever, and the Turbine could have if it wasn't outlawed. We shouldn't have any preconceived ideas of what the Indycar should be. THIS innovation and change is why Indy was always a very interesting place to be in May for DECADES leading into the 90's. Whether it was the Junk formula of the 30's, the front wheel drive roadsters, the Offy's laid down sideways, the stock blocks, ground effects Chapparals, or Mercedes OHV design, Indy has had a tradition of innovation.

I don't like the look of his delta wing design, but I resent the idea of anyone saying it isn't an Indycar. Indy cars race at Indy, and if the IRL picked up this design and said it was legal, as long as they didn't say other cars with other designs couldn't race against it, I would be ok with Ganassi showing up with this thing if they could run against more conventional designs. Let the engine specs determine the formula and safety, not just an arbitrary rule.

People who dismiss this cannot then turn around and say they want innovation back....because ugly it may be but outside the box it is...

[Mark in Oshawa]

It's not going to be hard for IndyCar and Barnhardt to chose a competing design over this team-owners project.

Bitchin' soap box derby car though.

They probably will, but I would love to see a prototype of this on the track before I dismiss the concept.

[HoustonCartFan]

I like the Swift, Dallara concepts better. That said there should not be a spec chassis. I want to see different looking cars on the track.

[Hoss Ghoul]

They probably will, but I would love to see a prototype of this on the track before I dismiss the concept.

Agreed, particularly if a car of this type opened up a new era or innovation and record speeds at Indy...that's what its all about. Indy is Bonneville in its own way.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Agreed, particularly if a car of this type opened up a new era or innovation and record speeds at Indy...that's what its all about. Indy is Bonneville in its own way.

You and I are in the minority....

[Lousada]

Thinking about this a bit longer, I wonder if the drivers would be able to judge the width of the car. With today's high sideprotection a driver does not have a very good view of the rear.
Also, if you skim this car against the wall you will have problem. A car with equal front and back width will bounce. But when this car hits the wall, the rear hits first, and then the front will slingshot against the wall.

[TURN3]

I was really looking forward to liking this car, maybe partly just for the sake of having an argument against a new Dallara. I have to say though, WOW! What a dud!! This thing looks like crap for an Indycar. It belongs on the Bonneville Salt Flats trying for speed records or something, but not at Indy. Dallara 1 and Swift both look nice, maybe Lola will come up with something to look at soon.

[NickFalzone]

Agreed, particularly if a car of this type opened up a new era or innovation and record speeds at Indy...that's what its all about. Indy is Bonneville in its own way.

I do find it endlessly amusing how supposed Indy racing fans can get so attached to so-called "evolutionary" designs. Innovation is what made this racing interesting for so many years, and it's been stuck in a rut for at least 2 decades. If the choice is between an updated formula car, or a revolutionary (if controversial) concept, I say go for the revolutionary. To think that the extremely small IRL fanbase really counts for much anymore is naive imo. The IRL could easily lose its entire 400k-strong fanbase, come up with a new crazy design that appeals to a different crowd, and get that fanbase back. And if anything, it will get an uptick in interest to attend local races to see what the talk is about. I'm not at all stuck on this design or any others, but I do think that what the IRL should be about is creative innovation, and not slight formula re-workings of a design that was stale long ago.

[beachbum]

Was the Turbine car an Indy car? Was Brabham's Cooper in 61 an Indycar? People at the Speedway said no, but both were outside the box thinking. .....

People who dismiss this cannot then turn around and say they want innovation back....because ugly it may be but outside the box it is...Actually, the Cooper was very conventional for the time - in F1. It was a proven and tested design. The first turbine was very different, but the second one wasn't. Even the first wasn't as radical as a car than may have inspired it, the Smokey Yunick "sidecar". But these were built for a very specific race, and while the layouts may have been radical, the suspension geometry and general layouts were not. The "conventional" wisdom of the day was to get all of the weight on the left, and the turbine did that.

You just can't fool physics. How will the front wheels turn? Skinny tires on the front - really? Side impact protection - where?

Thinking outside the box is fine, but don't lose the box. This thing looks like you would buy it in a box - in 1/24 scale.

[F1boat]

The Swift is gorgeous, the delta thing is ugly as hell.

[DBell]

Was the Turbine car an Indy car? Was Brabham's Cooper in 61 an Indycar? People at the Speedway said no, but both were outside the box thinking. The Cooper changed the destiny of the Speedway forever, and the Turbine could have if it wasn't outlawed. We shouldn't have any preconceived ideas of what the Indycar should be. THIS innovation and change is why Indy was always a very interesting place to be in May for DECADES leading into the 90's. Whether it was the Junk formula of the 30's, the front wheel drive roadsters, the Offy's laid down sideways, the stock blocks, ground effects Chapparals, or Mercedes OHV design, Indy has had a tradition of innovation.

I don't like the look of his delta wing design, but I resent the idea of anyone saying it isn't an Indycar. Indy cars race at Indy, and if the IRL picked up this design and said it was legal, as long as they didn't say other cars with other designs couldn't race against it, I would be ok with Ganassi showing up with this thing if they could run against more conventional designs. Let the engine specs determine the formula and safety, not just an arbitrary rule.

People who dismiss this cannot then turn around and say they want innovation back....because ugly it may be but outside the box it is...

I don't disagree with what you've said Mark, but for me, once you enclose the wheels in body work it ceases to be an open wheel car. Indy car has always meant open wheel cars as long as I've been following and I'm not sure I can get over the fact that this has more in common with a prototype sports car than an open wheel car.

[FormerFF]

I assume Ben Bowlby knows what he's doing, but I just don't see how that car is going to turn with narrow front tires and a narrow track. I'd also be concerned that the drivers would misjudge the width of the rear of the car and wind up hitting each other when the rear wheels get close to each other.

I suspect most of the reason fo the reaction we're seeing here is that the Delta Wing looks like it is optimized for going in a straight line, and we all know that getting around turns is the essence of Indycar racing.

[maximilian]

http://www.anasuya.com/maximilian/delta.jpghttp://www.maximilian.us/delta.jpg

I dunno, if the front wheels are moved outward, it doesn't look all that bad... and would have the needed stability.

[NickFalzone]

http://www.anasuya.com/maximilian/delta.jpghttp://www.maximilian.us/delta.jpg

I dunno, if the front wheels are moved outward, it doesn't look all that bad... and would have the needed stability.

Yeah actually that's what I was expecting to see, although with the front tires a little more closely together (maybe a ft or so). I haven't read articles on it, but I'd be interested to know why Bowlby is so in favor of nearly a single front tire.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't disagree with what you've said Mark, but for me, once you enclose the wheels in body work it ceases to be an open wheel car. Indy car has always meant open wheel cars as long as I've been following and I'm not sure I can get over the fact that this has more in common with a prototype sports car than an open wheel car.

Hey, I don't disagree with you on that, but my point is we have to be prepared to toss out what we conceive a race car should be if we are going to encourage innovation. I cannot accept the styling of the proposal but I am curious if Bowlby's claims for the car hold up. I am always ready to be proved wrong on this one.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually, the Cooper was very conventional for the time - in F1. It was a proven and tested design. The first turbine was very different, but the second one wasn't. Even the first wasn't as radical as a car than may have inspired it, the Smokey Yunick "sidecar". But these were built for a very specific race, and while the layouts may have been radical, the suspension geometry and general layouts were not. The "conventional" wisdom of the day was to get all of the weight on the left, and the turbine did that..

The Cooper was seen as a radical car at Indy. No one in the US was building a rear engined Indy car. I have read the stories of how people there viewed the rear engined revolution and they figured for oval racing the Roadster was the way to go. No American even built anything like the Cooper and they mocked Brabham showing up with a little Climax motor until he was 20mph or better faster in the turns. Indy always had to be shown something worked before the conventional wisdom was changed. Ditto for the Turbine....and now you read the posts on here on why people dump on the delta wing (styling wise I don't like it) but none of us ACTUALLY know if the car will work. Bowlby designs race cars for a living, let's hope he can get one to the track and prove the merits of his design one way or the other.


You just can't fool physics. How will the front wheels turn? Skinny tires on the front - really? Side impact protection - where?

Thinking outside the box is fine, but don't lose the box. This thing looks like you would buy it in a box - in 1/24 scale.

He says he addressed all that....and I agree it is goofy looking...but he is an engineer who has probably thought of all of this. It isn't his first rodeo...so lets hope something is learned...because if these delta's actually put on a really good show racing, I might almost put up with it...

[DanicaFan]

That car is truly hideous.

[maximilian]

That car is truly hideous.

Still better than Danica's proposal: :D

http://www.everythingweird.com/images/shoe-car_1333.jpg

[anthonyvop]

300 Hp, little downforce.

So they put their minds together and created a car that will probably be slower than a Formula Atlantic?

[nigelred5]

Can you imagine what it would have looked like if Mario would have been driving one of them when he flipped at the Speedway? uhhh, Houston, we have a problem..

I agree with the concern over how that thing will react when it hits the wall on a speedway like TMS, let alone at Indy. It may work ok on roadcourses, but I just can't imagine what would happen the first time all hell breaks loose on an oval.

[Mark in Oshawa]

300 Hp, little downforce.

So they put their minds together and created a car that will probably be slower than a Formula Atlantic?

Bowlby claims the less frontal area and lack of wings will help it. I agree, I think he is nuts, but he is the engineer and people paid him good money to put this out there. So either they are all nuts, or someone will have to produce numbers to prove the concept.

It isn't for us fans on a fan forum to decide if this thing will work, it is for someone to build the damn car and prove it works. I just caution everyone to be open to the reality it MAY work...

[nigelred5]

I have no problem allowing something like that attempting to qualify to race, but mandating that for the entire field as the spec....... I'd finally be out of Indycar racing for good.

[NickFalzone]

Bowlby claims the less frontal area and lack of wings will help it. I agree, I think he is nuts, but he is the engineer and people paid him good money to put this out there. So either they are all nuts, or someone will have to produce numbers to prove the concept.

It isn't for us fans on a fan forum to decide if this thing will work, it is for someone to build the damn car and prove it works. I just caution everyone to be open to the reality it MAY work...

Considering that as far as I know, there are no engineers on this forum, really all that we can do is speculate on the performance, and comment on the look of it. The performance is probably there to an extent as Bowlby is doubtfully a complete moron in designing a car that performs subpar to the current Dallara. So to me the questions have more to do with safety, how it races, and whether its unique look will draw in or turn away fans. To assume that Bowly has designed a car that is going to have inferior performance on ovals and roadcourses is basically calling him a failure as an engineer. Which may be the case. But until it's on the track, I'm not going to hold onto any judgements in that direction.

[NickFalzone]

Also I'd like to point out that Ganassi owns the biggest/best wind-tunnel in North America, located here in the northeast. So I'd bet this has been thrown in there and it's not all computer simulations. Keep in mind that he's suggesting comparable performance to current cars with an engine half the size or less (300 hp) so design-wise there's something going on that makes it a very efficient chassis.

[gofastandwynn]

I was really wishing that I was going to be wrong when I posted the photos, but this whole thing feels like a big stunt. This abortion is what all the hype was about? This is the thing that is going to save Indy Car & open wheel racing in America?

And I don't care how great of a designer Ben Bowlby is, many greater designers had failed designs, ex the Lotus 63, the Lotus 76, the Chaparral 2H, and I could go on.

The nice thing is we can sell collectibles at various "adult shops" all over the world.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Also I'd like to point out that Ganassi owns the biggest/best wind-tunnel in North America, located here in the northeast. So I'd bet this has been thrown in there and it's not all computer simulations. Keep in mind that he's suggesting comparable performance to current cars with an engine half the size or less (300 hp) so design-wise there's something going on that makes it a very efficient chassis.

That was my thinking. This design didn't come from some college student messing around on photoshop. I don't like the design BUT if it does all that he say's it does, I would love to see the concept come to a prototype....

[NickFalzone]

A couple more simulation videos of the Delta car:

Indy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Cxe_hN5sDw

Airflow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAo0mbCFDAw

[Hoss Ghoul]

What if the car was more of a cross between the concept and this Honda F1 modified for Bonneville?

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/allarticles/269163/the-fastest-f1-car-ever.html

Wider front wheel stance, some form of front wing, but the larger rear fin.

[gofastandwynn]

Was the Turbine car an Indy car? Was Brabham's Cooper in 61 an Indycar? People at the Speedway said no, but both were outside the box thinking. The Cooper changed the destiny of the Speedway forever, and the Turbine could have if it wasn't outlawed. We shouldn't have any preconceived ideas of what the Indycar should be. THIS innovation and change is why Indy was always a very interesting place to be in May for DECADES leading into the 90's. Whether it was the Junk formula of the 30's, the front wheel drive roadsters, the Offy's laid down sideways, the stock blocks, ground effects Chapparals, or Mercedes OHV design, Indy has had a tradition of innovation.
.


No, the Turbine car wasn't an Indy car, is was the Turbine car. In the same way the Cooper wasn't called a Roadster.

The problem with your thinking is that both of those cars, while a clean sheet from the car side, was just another page in the book as the race went because is was an addition, not a replacement. When Andy brought the Turbine the rules weren't changed so only the Turbine car could race, you could still race a roadster or rear engined car.

So let me say this. The Delta Wing will be a spec car, so what happens when Innovation becomes Ordinary? When 3 year after this car comes about the same internet posters complain that all the cars are the same, it's ugly, blah blah blah, that you all complain about now? What then?

[Mark in Oshawa]

No, the Turbine car wasn't an Indy car, is was the Turbine car. In the same way the Cooper wasn't called a Roadster.

The problem with your thinking is that both of those cars, while a clean sheet from the car side, was just another page in the book as the race went because is was an addition, not a replacement. When Andy brought the Turbine the rules weren't changed so only the Turbine car could race, you could still race a roadster or rear engined car.

So let me say this. The Delta Wing will be a spec car, so what happens when Innovation becomes Ordinary? When 3 year after this car comes about the same internet posters complain that all the cars are the same, it's ugly, blah blah blah, that you all complain about now? What then?
You are missing the point. Make the rules so there is innovation and an attraction for new vendors, engine manufacturers and the like to join the sport. The way the IRL is now, it is a monopoly. Look how WELL that has worked?

The Delta wing should be a concept that fits within a rules structure or not. Put a "box" out there and let people build cars to fit within it. The way it is now, they will look at all designs and pick ONE and then lock it up for 5 or 6 years. Cost effective? Yes....but short sighted really. It is probably why the IRL is hurting for fan support. NASCAR has the COT, and it hasn't hurt them yet because the racing has been pretty good with it; but to try to duplicate that in a forum that has always inthe past had a variety of innovations and cars is just short sighted.

This cost containment stuff has given us a racing formula that is boring and is producing boring racing. 2 more seasons of this and the only people watching will be friends and family....

[gofastandwynn]

You are missing the point. Make the rules so there is innovation and an attraction for new vendors, engine manufacturers and the like to join the sport. The way the IRL is now, it is a monopoly. Look how WELL that has worked?



But that is my point, this will be another monopoly. You will have 33 of the same looking cars out there, and in 3 years when you all get tired of this car the same internet losers will be complaining about the same things they are now.

[Scheckterfan54]

This is by far the most assenine "indycar" proposal. This is not a formula car, it is not an open wheel car, and it is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen. This will turn what is left of AOWR into a joke. It would have been easier to use a top fuel car. I love the Indy 500 and the history involved, but this could be the last step. I hope that randy bernard really gives this some good thought. I agree with what has been said above, that this would be an interesting idea for an attempt at a 500...but a league wide spec car would unwatchable. We already have zero passing, why not make it even more difficult. I sure am glad F1 will be starting soon. Atleast those cars look fast and sporty.

[beachbum]

The Cooper was seen as a radical car at Indy. No one in the US was building a rear engined Indy car. I have read the stories of how people there viewed the rear engined revolution and they figured for oval racing the Roadster was the way to go. No American even built anything like the Cooper and they mocked Brabham showing up with a little Climax motor until he was 20mph or better faster in the turns. Indy always had to be shown something worked before the conventional wisdom was changed. Ditto for the Turbine....and now you read the posts on here on why people dump on the delta wing (styling wise I don't like it) but none of us ACTUALLY know if the car will work. Bowlby designs race cars for a living, let's hope he can get one to the track and prove the merits of his design one way or the other.



He says he addressed all that....and I agree it is goofy looking...but he is an engineer who has probably thought of all of this. It isn't his first rodeo...so lets hope something is learned...because if these delta's actually put on a really good show racing, I might almost put up with it...The Cooper may have been seen as radical by Indy car standards, but technically, it was a known quantity and was hardly revolutionary. What was more revolutionary was the advent of wings.

As someone who has a degree in mechanical engineering, there are aspects that make sense, and some that make no sense at all. Even with modern tire constructions, there is a limit to how much traction you can get with a certain width and loading. The only possible way that might work is with a severe rearward weight bias, or have tires that last a few laps. I am not sure how they can achieve that and still get a lighter car. There are only so many mechanical bits you can move.

The problem is building car that can run by itself and be controllable is a lot different that the issues of racing the same cars. With today's cars, certain common events like banging wheels don't immediately result in disaster. With widely different track widths, if the rear wheels touch, the car will likely rotate. Not good and a probable crash.

Crash loads are reduced with crush space. The side pods are minimal, so when the crash does occur, there isn't much crush space. That severe rearward weight bias may have some unexpected dynamics in a spin, and race cars do spin. A car tends to spin around the CG, and if it is rearward, that funny nose will have some serious velocity as it comes around.

Technical innovation is great, as is thinking outside the box, but with so much hard data on vehicle and tire dynamics, building something this radical that is vastly different than any other solution anyone has built just makes little sense. Perhaps I will be proven wrong (won't be the first), but this reminds me too much of the Mickey Thompson "roller skate" and other ill conceived "radical" ideas.

There is a good reason most race cars look a lot alike. Base on the laws of Physics, everyone comes to similar conclusions.

[SarahFan]

I read EXACTLY what you wrote above. Please tell me how what you wrote was NOT assuming that what Graham Rahal saw was the same as the renderings posted.

But now it appears that the joke is on all of us and the leaked renderings are the actual car. Yikes! I don't see how the front wheels can steer. Looks like a salt flats car to me.

Gary

not sure what to tell you gary.....i think you need to actually read what was written..

[SarahFan]

Thinking about this a bit longer, I wonder if the drivers would be able to judge the width of the car. With today's high sideprotection a driver does not have a very good view of the rear.
Also, if you skim this car against the wall you will have problem. A car with equal front and back width will bounce. But when this car hits the wall, the rear hits first, and then the front will slingshot against the wall.

I said the same thing to a buddy this afternoon.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

But that is my point, this will be another monopoly. You will have 33 of the same looking cars out there, and in 3 years when you all get tired of this car the same internet losers will be complaining about the same things they are now.

I have not advocated they use only this car. Read my posts, I want this damned series opened up before it suffocates....

I have only said that if the car does everything Bowlby claims, then it is worthy. What I see is everyone deriding it as ugly, and claiming it wont work without any proof or techincal analysis.

I think it is ugly....but if if raced well and you could run a normal car against it, then I would be ok with it...

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Cooper may have been seen as radical by Indy car standards, but technically, it was a known quantity and was hardly revolutionary. What was more revolutionary was the advent of wings.

As someone who has a degree in mechanical engineering, there are aspects that make sense, and some that make no sense at all. Even with modern tire constructions, there is a limit to how much traction you can get with a certain width and loading. The only possible way that might work is with a severe rearward weight bias, or have tires that last a few laps. I am not sure how they can achieve that and still get a lighter car. There are only so many mechanical bits you can move.

The problem is building car that can run by itself and be controllable is a lot different that the issues of racing the same cars. With today's cars, certain common events like banging wheels don't immediately result in disaster. With widely different track widths, if the rear wheels touch, the car will likely rotate. Not good and a probable crash.

Crash loads are reduced with crush space. The side pods are minimal, so when the crash does occur, there isn't much crush space. That severe rearward weight bias may have some unexpected dynamics in a spin, and race cars do spin. A car tends to spin around the CG, and if it is rearward, that funny nose will have some serious velocity as it comes around.

Technical innovation is great, as is thinking outside the box, but with so much hard data on vehicle and tire dynamics, building something this radical that is vastly different than any other solution anyone has built just makes little sense. Perhaps I will be proven wrong (won't be the first), but this reminds me too much of the Mickey Thompson "roller skate" and other ill conceived "radical" ideas.

There is a good reason most race cars look a lot alike. Base on the laws of Physics, everyone comes to similar conclusions.

At least you have some technical knowledge to base your assertions on. I accept these better than hearing someone merely say it is "ugly".

The Swift is the car I like personally but I would love to see it race the Dallara...

[stephenw_us]

I don't know what insults me more right now, USF1 or this car...

[wedge]

Comical! IRL will surly bag Hot Wheels as a series sponsor, LOL!

Looks like it was designed for Bonneville rather than Indy.

Can the car turn efficiently with tthat narrow nose?

[Hoss Ghoul]

When are we going to start hearing teams, drivers, and other interested parties commenting on this design, and the others presented?

So far there is no one aside from the designer commenting technically, no one commenting politically, and generally no real advocates-outside RM for the Delta, and associated constructors for their car-on this design or any other we have now seen.

[Blancvino]

It's not April 1st, is it?

[NickFalzone]

When are we going to start hearing teams, drivers, and other interested parties commenting on this design, and the others presented?

So far there is no one aside from the designer commenting technically, no one commenting politically, and generally no real advocates-outside RM for the Delta, and associated constructors for their car-on this design or any other we have now seen.

Hoss, some comments from the drivers that have been printed (indy star and elsewhere):

Graham:

"The design is revolutionary," said Rahal, 21. "We have never seen an open-wheel racing car that looks like this. Is it going to be newsworthy? Yes. Is it going to catch eyeballs? Yes. Plus, there's good space for sponsors on it.

"From a driver's point of view, from all the simulations I've heard about, the performance of the car is not going to be a concern at all."

"That thing is crazy looking," Graham Rahal said. "It's awesome."

Franchitti and Dixon:

Indy-car racing's radical new concept car was unveiled today at the Chicago Auto Show, leaving Indy 500 drivers stunned by its uniqueness.

"On a scale of 1 to 10," Scott Dixon said of the difference to current cars, "it's an 11."

"I'm ready to drive one," Franchitti said.

[stephenw_us]

They've all lost their collective minds...

IndyCar is officially dead.

[gofastandwynn]

They've all lost their collective minds...

IndyCar is officially dead.

I would not say that, since there have 2 Marshall Pruett articles talking about Brian Barnhart trying to put the kibosh on the Delta Wing, and now I think we all see why...

[Scotty G.]

Hoss, some comments from the drivers that have been printed (indy star and elsewhere):

Graham:

"The design is revolutionary," said Rahal, 21. "We have never seen an open-wheel racing car that looks like this. Is it going to be newsworthy? Yes. Is it going to catch eyeballs? Yes. Plus, there's good space for sponsors on it.

"From a driver's point of view, from all the simulations I've heard about, the performance of the car is not going to be a concern at all."

"That thing is crazy looking," Graham Rahal said. "It's awesome."

Franchitti and Dixon:

Indy-car racing's radical new concept car was unveiled today at the Chicago Auto Show, leaving Indy 500 drivers stunned by its uniqueness.

"On a scale of 1 to 10," Scott Dixon said of the difference to current cars, "it's an 11."

"I'm ready to drive one," Franchitti said.


Did Chip type those responses out for them?

Talk about "toeing the company line". :p I guess Scotty D and Dario don't want to honk off the boss and his new creation. ;)

Dario will probably be retired by 2012 anyway.

Best news I think from this dog-and-pony show, might be Graham Rahal appearing very much like a Ganassi Racing employee.

[Scotty G.]

I don't know what insults me more right now, USF1 or this car...

Don't worry, neither one will be around by this time next year. ;)

[SUBARUTEAM]

i hate the look of the car but personally i have no issue with it in a series that allows multiple manufacturers. if the teams could choose between two different cars, cool.

If that was the case, i would take the car with the big rear wing that causes the most distubance to the air behind the car - that would make my car harder to pass.

[gofastandwynn]

Per tracksideonline.com asking for fan responses to the Delta Wing


Early returns to TSO HQ have DeltaWing more hated than T George and R Miller combined. At least all OWR fans have something in common now.

[beachbum]

The Swift is the car I like personally but I would love to see it race the Dallara...Agreed. The designs from either one look interesting and both companies know how to build very good real world race cars.

After reading more technical analysis of the "Delta Wing", IHMO, the "outside of the box" thinking including some thinking outside of the box named "physics". it appears to have been designed around steady state conditions, while racing is anything but "steady state".

So now they want a computer to steer the car? How is that a good thing? Using any form of differential steer to get the car to turn doesn't fly as a driver has to make corrections and be able to very precisely position the car on the track. Not only that, but the rear tires will be doing all of the work. The computing power to do that with differential steer is very high. F1 has used electronic diffs to help steer the car, and much of that was banned as too expensive as well as having some safety concerns.

Taking a risk of this magnitude IMHO is just not smart considering the fragile state of racing in general. The risk of failure is too high, and the sport can't stand a failure of the basic technology

[FormerFF]

Any engineering project is a set of compromises. You start with a set of desired characteristics, and design towards the goal of accomplishing them. When I look at this design, I wonder what those characteristics were. If the goal was to get around a high speed oval at nearly the same speed as the current car, but to use a much smaller engine to do so, then I can see where this design makes sense. In order to get a 300 hp car around the track at those sort of speeds, then a radical reduction in drag is required. The narrow nose and faired wheels make a lot of sense in that context. I'm not sure why 300 hp was the chosen engine output. A turbo four is capable of putting out way more than that. Remember the turbo four F1 engines of 20 years ago? They were putting out 900 hp or more in race trim, from 1.5 liters.

I still can't get over that narrow track front end, when a wide track is standard operating practice if lots of grip is the desired characteristic. One of the things that I've noticed about computer models is that they are very good when there is lots of data to draw from in their design. I don't doubt that a simulation of a hypothetical suspension that is similar in design to a currently used one can be carried out successfully. I have my doubts about the modeling of this car because it is so far from current practice. As far as we know, this is only a mockup, and no such car has ever been run on a track, correct? I don't see how they can accurately model a car that is so far in design from any that they have good data for. With that super narrow front end, I can't see any way to avoid having a very short swing arm length, which almost always leads to twitchy handling due to a poor camber change curve. One way to get around that is to make the springing very stiff which limits wheel travel, but considering how little weight there will be on the front wheels, I wouldn't think that would be desirable. I'd also be concerned about roll stiffness at the front. I'd think to get a decent roll couple out of that car, the front would need to be fairly soft in roll and the rear fairly firm, otherwise the inside front may very well lift, like some old Porsche 911s did. Another approach might be to tie the front wheels together with a de Dion tube or some similar arrangement.

Start with a clean sheet of paper and draw up your design characteristics. What's the number one priority? Good racing! Everything else is secondary. If the racing is not good, the car is a failure. So let's start with that, and work backwards. What's the best open wheel racing you've seen? From a road racing standpoint, the best I've seen is Formula Ford. The characteristics of a Formula Ford are low power, lots of mechanical grip, no aero grip at all, and because of the exposed wheels, a fairly poor coefficient of drag. What this means on the track is that the cars are pretty quick for 115 hp, that they can race very close to each other because of the lack of aero push, and because they are draggy, drafting is very possible. On the oval side of things, the open wheel racing I've most enjoyed were wingless midgets and sprinters. I'm not sure the lessons from those series are as applicable to high speed oval racing, but they do share a couple of the same characteristics with a Formula Ford: they're draggy, and they don't suffer from aero push.

There are some minimum characteristics for a top line racing car. I wouldn't want to see an Indycar with less than 500 hp. 300 hp? Excuse me, my wife's van has 245 hp! There are lots of street cars with more power than that. I don't care if they were still doing 220 mph laps at Indy, I'd not want to promote a top line series with cars that have that little power. 500 hp could easily be achieved with a turbo 4 or normally aspirated V6 or V8. I'd want enough mechanical grip to get around a road course at a pace similar to or a little quicker than an ALMS P1 car. Since the open wheeler would be much lighter than the P1 car, that should be achievable with 500 or 600 hp. Wings? Nah, I'd leave them off if possible, the less aero grip the better. I do recall racing (in a Formula Ford) one guy who had a very similar car to mine, and there were a number of times that we came down the hill at Road Atlanta and into turn 12 where if you measured from the front of his car to the end of mine, the distance would have been less than the length of our two cars. If I'd had a front wing, I couldn't have done that as it would have been where his transmission was. The whole thing about open wheel racing is that since you can see exactly where your wheels are, you can get really close, and that's where the excitement is.

[Scotty G.]

Damn, Nigelred already posted the "Ace and Gary" car earlier in this thread.

Nice work, my friend. That is what I immediately thought of, when I saw the Chicken Wing unveiling.

[garyshell]

Aftere finding out that the leaked pictures really were what Delta Wing was proposing, I think this old music video from some friends of mine pretty much sums up my thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpMGvRWZ4gs

Gary

[garyshell]

Graham has a picture link on his Twitter feed and I must say it looks better in real life than the rendering but stilll... "Earth to Grandma, what the hell is that"?

http://www.zannel.com/viewupdate.htm?id=PA388U

Gary

[jimispeed]

What a waste of time and money....

http://tomheroes.com/images7/COMICAD_ssp_wind_tunnel.jpg

Might as well bring the red one into production..... :rolleyes:

Or the Ram Jet.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X7hdyTPeIY&NR=1

[electron]

As others sayd:

IndyCar is officially dead. This is bull, they are riding it and hired the right person for the job.

If Dixon says this is an 11 he may actually mean a double 1 ... so bad one doens't tell enough. This is.... I can't believe this.

Can we all have Tony George back please? Man...

Friggin unbelievable.

okay, mark this post: IndyCar will be deader than dead before this hits the road. There will never be a 2012 season. This car will never roll.

So dead... wow. I can't get a grip LOL

[V12]

The difference is, the Cooper and the turbines were designed to go quicker than the opposition, not get more shock value.

For me the best part of the launch wasn't the car itself, but this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81386):



Bowlby does not want the DeltaWing to become a spec chassis for the IndyCar Series, and wants multiple chassis builders to be able to enter cars built within the rules framework established by his concept.

"Just as we hope to see multiple engine suppliers with different configurations and displacements, we also hope to create a framework that will allow us to see a varied and ever changing grid of racing machines in a sustainable, cost controlled and high value manner," he said.

[Chris R]

The car itself looks more like a LSR car than an Indycar.... The only value see is as an exercise in possibilities - overall, the Honda concept is the 'best" looking so far - the yellow Dallara looks ok and the Swift could be interesting but it looks a bit unfinished... I vote for all three!!!!

[methanolHuffer]

If this 'car' doesn't capture the interest of the motorsport media, nothing really will.
And I think that's what this baby was really meant to do. If only for a short while.

[garyshell]

This is the third time in the past day I have seen a mention of the "Honda Concept" but I don't recall seeing a link to an pictures of it. Got link?

Gary

[methanolHuffer]

I bet you've seen this:

http://www.gadgetunite.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/honda-indy_01.jpg

and

http://dvice.com/galleries/TylerMarsHondaGal/Mars-Honda-IRL-Gallery-09.jpg

and

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/03/05/honda-indycar-wp3_ulOpM_17621.jpg

[bblocker68]

Oh my.

Uh, I really like the traditional Swift design, now.......even more than before all this has melted down forums across the planet :)

[garyshell]

I bet you've seen this:

http://www.gadgetunite.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/honda-indy_01.jpg

and

http://dvice.com/galleries/TylerMarsHondaGal/Mars-Honda-IRL-Gallery-09.jpg

and

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/03/05/honda-indycar-wp3_ulOpM_17621.jpg


Thanks MH,

Weren't those all from the student design competition, not really from Honda per se?

Gary

[methanolHuffer]

yeah.

As far as an official concept from Honda itself, it probably has yet to endorse or commission its own.

[Mark in Oshawa]

After a day's thought, I agree the delta wing is ugly...or maybe just too wacky. I don't see how the narrow front track will work, just as a layman I know you need width in that track to make the car drivable and to give the grip. I do think however, and I stand by what I said, that multiple chassis racing would be the best, and if Bowlby wants to spend a half million of Chip's money to put one of these on the track, I am all for him trying as long as the car meets the rules and regs of the IRL.

We cannot merely say we want one car over another based on appearance. The Dallara's only real sin is it isnt' pretty and looks like a car designed in the 80's with the straight wings, but I wouldn't quibble if there were choices for the teams to work with.

As for the Delta wing...it is out there, and contrary to one of the posters above, I don't recall Robin Miller endorsing this thing. He hasn't said one way or the other, all he did was interview Bowlby and let him theorize on why he put this beast into the public domain...

[Chamoo]

Maybe Izod should have a say in what they want to see? They are the ones dishing out big bucks here trying to promote the series, let them have a say what they should get to work with.

[bblocker68]

This has changed my mind a bit. Bowlby was behind the Lola that floated CART/Champcar for so long. I loved that car. The interview is pretty interesting and does shed some light on how the new car would perform:
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-inside-the-delta-wing-project/

[champcarray]

Thank you all for sharing images of the various concepts and the link to Graham's blog. I will echo what many have said already: the delta wing concept does not look raceable. Until I see actual footage of this thing at speed through a variety of banked and unbanked corners with various radii, I simply don't believe it will work. Trikes don't behave well in corners.

As for the look? Ugh.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Maybe Izod should have a say in what they want to see? They are the ones dishing out big bucks here trying to promote the series, let them have a say what they should get to work with.

IZOD might like the Delta Wing and then the sound you would hear is half the people on this board knashing their teeth. I am open to the idea of an ugly car racing pretty cars. What I am against is the rules saying it has to be ONE car or another.....

[FORMULA-A]

I have been living with this abomination for the past day. It isn't a racing car. The Turbine was bad ass either the 67 or especially the Lotus 56, 68 car. They were innovative and cool. This ... THING looks like a something froma bad Roger Corman film that David Carradine would drive. Who made the cool looking concept model that was shown around and was badged with HONDA? Not the ones already linked to but the one with the fatter, rounded sideboards. It was cool and seemed to be what both the Cooper and the Turbine were...EVOLUTIONS of great racing car designs not a .... joke.

Ugghhhhhh.

[stephenw_us]

The ultra narrow front end, and 300hp formula - I'm sorry but both are an insult to the tradition of top level auto racing...

It's a bad joke.

[jwhite9185]

hope it goes the same way as the falcon chassis from a few years back.

[Phoenixent]

I would be happier to see the re-introduction of the front engine roadster to Indycars than that lawn dart called the DeltaWing. What a sad day for Indy if that DeltaWing hits that track... :(

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo56/skarnes128/Name%20That%20Car/1956BVeith.jpg

[stephenw_us]

http://pressdog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c53c653ef012877650191970c-800wi


This from Dallara makes the most sense - it's a substantial car, could handle some slight contact, and could handle a substantial powerplant with plenty of horsepower.

It's a no brainer...but looks like IndyCar is determined to shoot themselves in the foot by not containing this process properly...

[the bro]

Who wants to volunteer to sit in the Grandstand when they test this thing? It looks like it might fly.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I would be happier to see the re-introduction of the front engine roadster to Indycars than that lawn dart called the DeltaWing. What a sad day for Indy if that DeltaWing hits that track... :(

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo56/skarnes128/Name%20That%20Car/1956BVeith.jpg

This is what I was kind of hoping would be tossed out there with a Roadster with 2010 technology...

[Mark in Oshawa]

http://pressdog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c53c653ef012877650191970c-800wi


This from Dallara makes the most sense - it's a substantial car, could handle some slight contact, and could handle a substantial powerplant with plenty of horsepower.

It's a no brainer...but looks like IndyCar is determined to shoot themselves in the foot by not containing this process properly...

It isn't Indycar shooting themselves in the foot, it is all the different manufacturers and engineers who are putting ideas out there and this is a good process.

Everyone is panicing like the Deltawing is a done deal. It isn't, and I still think that there is no way in Hell the IRL will ok that car without a lot of mods, a wider front track being the first. IF you look at the old Lee Dystrka "Pepsi Challenger", the idea of having the bulk of the side pods and downforce body behind the driver isn't new. I just would love to hear more on how Bowlby thinks this car will work because I aint buying it right now, but hey, I love the new thinking. I wont knock people for thinking outside the box. The Delta Wing just seems to belong in a model box....

[Sonic]

From a simple safety standpoint I can't see the delta wing being a goer. Trying to remember your rear wheels are twice as wide as your fronts when going for a gap in the heat of battle sounds like a disaster waiting to happen to me.

That said as a fan who has drifted away from US open wheelers I'm glad to see such new and original ideas - rather than the F1 rejects (cars not drivers) we have now. If they get this right a lot of old fans, like me, and new fans alike could be attracted to Indycars.

[booger]

The Delta wing must have been designed from a paint brush with the handle on the front and the brush on the back. Brilliant and VERY forward thinking...duh!

[Chamoo]

Well, you can't tell me if this thing hits the track at Indy in 2012 with one or two of the other concepts, that the stands would be much fuller then they will be in 2010.

And let's not forget, Delta Wing LLC has stated multiple times that this is simply a concept car. They do not plan on building this car. They want Dallara, Lola, and Swift to built their car. This will allow these three manufacturers to build a car with the concept of the Delta Wing intact, yet they will be able to modify the car in small ways, both ways they deem will give them a better chance on the track, as well as modifications that the IRL would like them to implement.

[NickFalzone]

From a simple safety standpoint I can't see the delta wing being a goer. Trying to remember your rear wheels are twice as wide as your fronts when going for a gap in the heat of battle sounds like a disaster waiting to happen to me.

That said as a fan who has drifted away from US open wheelers I'm glad to see such new and original ideas - rather than the F1 rejects (cars not drivers) we have now. If they get this right a lot of old fans, like me, and new fans alike could be attracted to Indycars.

That's my thought on it as well. It's funny to me how some fans have been saying if this car gets on track in 2012, it will be the end of IndyCar. Keep in mind, these are usually the same naysayers that are regularly saying the series won't answer the bell in 2012 anyway. So honestly, what's the risk? Seems to me, if the IRL continues to decline in attendance and popularity, why in the world would you have the new car spec be one that is a moderate evolution of the current car, which itself has apparently very little interest to the casual viewer? It seems to me that getting back to innovation and strange, possibly unbalanced cars with a lot of engineering work required by the teams, is an infinitely more interesting way to go than sending out 33 updated clones of what we have now. Fine, give them a car design that can be built by multiple manufacturers (which is the core of Delta Wing's premise), a design that inherently is fast, but also may be unstable and imperfect (though still within the current safety requirements). Lets see the teams show up at Indy 2012 with many variations on the Delta Wing chassis and see what they did with it. Isn't that what gets fans to the track? You think fans want to come to an Indy practice session to see 33 identical Dallara's going maybe a quarter of a sec quicker than last year or even with the year before? Not me.

[anthonyvop]

Well, you can't tell me if this thing hits the track at Indy in 2012 with one or two of the other concepts, that the stands would be much fuller then they will be in 2010.

Can you say that they will?


And let's not forget, Delta Wing LLC has stated multiple times that this is simply a concept car. They do not plan on building this car.

Actually they stated that they are planning on building the car.


“Our goal is to have our first prototype on the track in August,” said Partel. “We look forward to an exciting development project with the Indy Racing League to ensure that all of their requirements are met for DeltaWing to become the next IZOD IndyCar in 2012.”

http://deltawingracing.com/

[NickFalzone]

Curt Cavin interviewed Bowlby earlier tonight on his Trackside radio show in Indianapolis. I liked his answers and attitude about how the "open source" design of the chassis would encourage multiple manufacturers. Its at the beginning of the Feb 11th podcast:

http://www.1070thefan.com/trackside/podcast.aspx

[NickFalzone]

Bowlby laughed off the accusation that the car couldn't steer in hairpins, but didn't go into details why during that interview. I looked around and apparently the Delta will have differential steering, which was banned in F1 and other organizations years ago. I'm not sure of the pros/cons of that kind of steering, but it can allow a radical design like this to turn very well in tight corners. RC cars use this technology to turn on a dime.

[garyshell]

Differential steering is the same concept used to steer tanks and other tracked vehicles and even robotics. This implies that the drive (rear) wheels would actually steering the car by spinning at different speeds. But what does that mean for the front wheels. Unless they are driven too isn't there bound to be some side friction involved. Hello, Hoop where are you when we need some calcs done, bud?

Gary

[Chamoo]

Can you say that they will?

My $10 dollars says there will be more people in attendance between practice and qualifications in 2012 if the Delta Wing car is put on the track then there will be people in the stands 2010 with the current Dallara on the track.



Actually they stated that they are planning on building the car.

They stated they are building a prototype, but they have no interest in building a fleet of cars for the IRL. They are building the prototype to prove that it can work, then will work with Dallara, Lola, and Swift and allow them to build the cars for the IRL.

[garyshell]

Can you say that they will?

I beive that is exactly what he said.


Actually they stated that they are planning on building the car.

No, they said they will build a car, a single prototype. They have no interest in being the supplier.

Gary

[dataman1]

I found an simple explanation of differential steering on youtub. Stick with it to the educational part. The first part could prove interesting at a pre-race show, Haha.

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYAw79386WI

[Scotty G.]

I thought Keith Wiggins saying he was supporting the Delta Wing because he "used to work for Bowlby at Lola" interesting.

Bowlby and Ganassi have all their former employees and lackeys lined up with them and their current drivers as well.

They had a chance to really hit a home run with a new design and unfortunately swung and missed BADLY with the folks that matter the most.....the consumer of their product.


A retro front-engined design would at least get many former fans and many current AOW people (because there is a LOT more to AOW then Indy Car Racing) interested. A innovative, evolutionary rear-engined design would at least get some former CART fans and many current fans interested.

This thing alienates ALL parties and doesn't appeal to anyone, from any genre of American Open Wheel Racing. Doesn't appeal to old fans. Doesn't appeal to current fans. And because it doesn't look like a NASCAR car, won't appeal to new fans (because unfortunately NASCAR is racing in this country now).

[garyshell]

The youtube video talks about the design of a differential, not differential steering. (Unless I skipped along too far past the motorcycle demo.)

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Love it or hate it, it is CHANGE...and this series hasn't CHANGED really for a decade....

Even the detractors of the D-wing design have to admit that it is not just a simple evolution, but a revolution. Revolutions are not always popular...but lets see how this pans out. I suspect the prototype and actual car if built wont end up quite like this wild idea.

Hoop..we need you ...because maybe you can bring some educated and intelligent thoughts to the table here. Right now....we are just knowing we dont' like the looks of it....

[SarahFan]

Love it or hate it, it is CHANGE...and this series hasn't CHANGED really for a decade....

Even the detractors of the D-wing design have to admit that it is not just a simple evolution, but a revolution. Revolutions are not always popular...but lets see how this pans out. I suspect the prototype and actual car if built wont end up quite like this wild idea.

Hoop..we need you ...because maybe you can bring some educated and intelligent thoughts to the table here. Right now....we are just knowing we dont' like the looks of it....

and dont care what it looks like.....I dont love it or hate...

but if adopted its clearly not an 'open wheel race car'.....and that fundementally changes this sport......

but hey maybe its already a zombie and change is the only option....


but from where I sit.....if it meets a basic set of rules (min/max weight, height, lenght etc) and meets safety standards..... then by all means let someone role it out and run 500 miles with.....maybe get there face on the borg warner...


but just dont stop Sarah from rolling out the Dollar General Dallara and kickin there as s's in it

[dataman1]

The youtube video talks about the design of a differential, not differential steering. (Unless I skipped along too far past the motorcycle demo.)

Gary

I was going for a laugh. I really like the idea of somone running on the rear wheels. NOT!

[Chamoo]

Would you guys feel better about the design if the front wheels had a normal seperation sticking out from the tub? I think that is one thing that would help the look. I always liked seeing the suspension moving over the bumps and such.

[dataman1]

Would you guys feel better about the design if the front wheels had a normal seperation sticking out from the tub? I think that is one thing that would help the look. I always liked seeing the suspension moving over the bumps and such.

I kind of agree that the front wheel seperation is a visual oddity and a question mark for most of we gearheads on how it could possibly work at any track other than an oval. In the explanation by Bowlby he wanted to reduce drag caused by the tires. If they were spread to a wider track, drag would increase which would require more power to maintain the same speeds, plus likely decrease fuel economy.

As has been pointed out several times before, the league needs to set its goals first. If they are doing their homework they will ask for input from the fans and auto manufacturers rather than their own staff. Is that likely to happen? I am afraid it won't with the current regime unless the Bull Rider cleans house.

[NickFalzone]

I thought Keith Wiggins saying he was supporting the Delta Wing because he "used to work for Bowlby at Lola" interesting.

Bowlby and Ganassi have all their former employees and lackeys lined up with them and their current drivers as well.

They had a chance to really hit a home run with a new design and unfortunately swung and missed BADLY with the folks that matter the most.....the consumer of their product.


A retro front-engined design would at least get many former fans and many current AOW people (because there is a LOT more to AOW then Indy Car Racing) interested. A innovative, evolutionary rear-engined design would at least get some former CART fans and many current fans interested.

This thing alienates ALL parties and doesn't appeal to anyone, from any genre of American Open Wheel Racing. Doesn't appeal to old fans. Doesn't appeal to current fans. And because it doesn't look like a NASCAR car, won't appeal to new fans (because unfortunately NASCAR is racing in this country now).

Scott, you need to stop this thing where you act like your opinions represent those of "all" fans. You know what you like, leave it at that. If I was going to speculate a percentage of hardcore Indy fans opinions on the Delta, I'd go 50% against, 25% unsure, 25% like it. But that's speculation, and opinions can change. I'd also bet that casual and younger fans are more likely to go for the Delta design.

[DanicaFan]

Just remember, this Delta Wing IS NOT the car chosen for the IRL. It is only a concept car. We all shouldnt speak as if it will be on track in 2012, not going to happen. ;)

The IRL isnt dumb enough to choose this hideous monstrosity. :down:

[SarahFan]

Just remember, this Delta Wing IS NOT the car chosen for the IRL. It is only a concept car. We all shouldnt speak as if it will be on track in 2012, not going to happen. ;)

The IRL isnt dumb enough to choose this hideous monstrosity. :down:

if its only a concept then how in the world do they know it will cost 1/2 as much...

what happens when actually car builders begin construction....and then it needs to be reengineered... and tweaked and tested....and updated and etc etc..

1/2 as much...

I call bullcr@p

[Scotty G.]

1. If I was going to speculate a percentage of hardcore Indy fans opinions on the Delta, I'd go 50% against, 25% unsure, 25% like it.

2. I'd also bet that casual and younger fans are more likely to go for the Delta design.


1. And you'd be wrong. Cavin said that his e-mails have been roughly 100 to 1 against it. And those are the hard-core fans (nobody else would bother e-mailing him).

2. Why? Any casual or younger fans are going to check out NASCAR first, second and third, before ever taking a look at whatever Indy Car is dishing out. Plus with the driver lineup, nobody new is going to pay attention anyway, whether they pick the Dallara, Delta Wing, Swift, Novi, March or Jaloppy.


There was one reason and one reason only why all of this "hubub" for the Deltoid Wing.... Barnhart opposes it. And all of those folks from Ganassi to Miller, who want Barnhart out and their "buddy" Cotman in (so they can get their series the way THEY want it) now have a cause to get behind, no matter how ridiculous it is.

This whole deal, is about wrestling control of the sport back to the way it was in the early 90's. Now that TG is gone, its time to pounce.

[ykiki]

1. And you'd be wrong. Cavin said that his e-mails have been roughly 100 to 1 against it. And those are the hard-core fans (nobody else would bother e-mailing him).



Just wondering - would this mean that the only people that could be considered as hard-core fans are the ones that email Cavin?

[Scotty G.]

Just wondering - would this mean that the only people that could be considered as hard-core fans are the ones that email Cavin?


No, it means those that took the time to e-mail Cavin, are most likely hard-core Indy Car fans.

Trackside Online (another place filled with hard-core Indy Car fans) published the feedback they received on the D-Wing. They gave EVERY e-mail they received on the unveiling. The results, were 57 against, 10 for and 12 not sure.

[philipbain]

I personally think the Delta Wing Project has massive potential, the lack of wings will lead to more options when racing in the pack on ovals and at close quarters on road courses. It will also create a lot of casual curiosity, unlike the current car that looks like a bloated old F1 reject.

The Dallara concept is unimaginative, Lola havnt even released pictures of thier concept but from the noises emerging from Lola it is apparent that the design isnt terribly adventurous. The Swift design is a bit more adventurous but is still inherantly a conventional concept but done in a very stylised way.

Let it sink in, the Delta Wing is VERY different but the Indycar series needs a big change, otherise the series will spiral into oblivion.

[gloomyDAY]

Since when was a penis considered a serious proposal?


Looks like a dildo cruising around the track. Awful!

[garyshell]

1. And you'd be wrong. Cavin said that his e-mails have been roughly 100 to 1 against it. And those are the hard-core fans (nobody else would bother e-mailing him).


Once again, you know everything... the rest of us no nothing. Why don't you just tell us all what to think. Oh wait, that is exactly what you do.

I hate to burst your bubble but, Scotty G. you take yourself much to seriously, so much so that the rest of us don't.

Gary

[philipbain]

Since when was a penis considered a serious proposal?


Looks like a dildo cruising around the track. Awful!

Well at least people will be actually talking about Indycar if the car looks like a giant cock and balls, which is much more than what happens now!

[methanolHuffer]

It's a stunt. A media freakshow.

Delta Wing Racing isn't a very imaginative name for a company, either.
I know it's a real entity, but it even sounds thrown together hastily.
Then again, this league has much the same symtem from the inception.

[SarahFan]

Well, you can't tell me if this thing hits the track at Indy in 2012 with one or two of the other concepts, that the stands would be much fuller then they will be in 2010.

.

I could tell you that.....

I ran a poll at another forum.... and 80% of the fans that voted dont believe that the DW is an open wheel racecar...

and another Poll has 45% of fans that voted saying they would migrate to another form of racing....


sure the DW will still produce some new interest...... but I would think its entirly possible for every new fan coming out to check out the next big thing there will be one less diehard moving on to F1 or superbikes etc

net gain = zero

[nigelred5]

I think it would at least LOOK a little better without that huge vertical tailfin. It just looks odd. It honestly looks like it's there for nothing more than a place to put a huge car number. Integrate something lower into the rear wheel fairings and maybe increase the sail area of the engine cowling.

[SFChamp]

Who designed this thing George Jetson?

[nigelred5]

Just realized what the deltawing reminds me of; the car on the Daytona 500 trophy.

[call_me_andrew]

OK, these were renderings that were up on a indy blog then were taken down.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4344651957_006d250fbe_o.jpg

I made something that looks just like that in shop class about 10 years ago. Only my car was powered by a CO^2 canister.

[The instant classic]

the new car looks like the batmobile from the tim burton movies :p

[SarahFan]

an i the only one who feels it gets worse ever time they see it?

[methanolHuffer]

Just realized what the deltawing reminds me of; the car on the Daytona 500 trophy.

Yeah yeah. Harley J Earl is laughing histerically about all this. Could he have imagined the future so well? I don't know, but that trophy caught my attention, too. Can't believe I didn't notice it sooner.

[Scotty G.]

an i the only one who feels it worse ever time they see it?


No.

More and more, I almost get the feeling that this whole DW deal was never that serious. I think this deal was more about getting a bunch of owners together in "solidarity" and trying to pressure Indy Car leadership to do things the way they want them done.

This thing was more about ELEMENTS of the sport and of the car, that the owners think are broken and need fixed.

I almost think Bowlby and Chipper made this "car" as ridiculous looking as possible. Maybe to try and scare the sport straight, as they say.

I and most rational people think that BIG changes have to be made, if the sport is to have any future at all. Things have to made SUBSTANTIALLY cheaper. More teams HAVE to be lured. More American drivers HAVE to feel welcome. The cars have to be economically and environmentally smart and have to be relevent with the rest of the car industry.

But this car? No chance the 2012 Indy 500 will have a car that looks like that. Bowlby and Ganassi probably knew that going in. It could look like a car we have used for 35 years. It could look like a car that we used in the 50's and 60's. It won't look like this thing though.

[SarahFan]

so scotty...

where exactly do you think they can cut costs?

[gofastandwynn]

an i the only one who feels it gets worse ever time they see it?

Yea, plus the more and more I see this and think about it it becomes more clear that this car will never happen. It would cause more accidents and require a complete overhaul of the ladder system.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The sky is falling...the Deltawing is coming.....

Believe me...if this thing actually gets to the point where one exists, then I will get bent of shape...

[call_me_andrew]

I just showed this to a friend of mine that doesn't follow racing. The response: "Only Batman could pull it off."

[SFChamp]

I'm Batman

[F1boat]

Since when was a penis considered a serious proposal?


Looks like a dildo cruising around the track. Awful!

ROFL!!!!

[Rex Monaco]

I want this damned series opened up before it suffocates....

+1

[Chris R]

The more I look at the Delta car and the more I hear people talk about it, the less I object to it... I do not think it is perfect as it sits (need to get those front tires out a bit) - but all of the reasoning behind it is fundamentally sound - one could even argue that it is the beginning of CART part deux where the team owners attack similar issues as in 1979 from a cost perspective instead of a revenue perspective....

I think history will come to regard the introduction of the Deltawing car concept as the second "white paper".......

[methanolHuffer]

opens up sponsorship sweetheart deals for Trojan, Viagra, etc.

[Chamoo]

The more I look at the Delta car and the more I hear people talk about it, the less I object to it... I do not think it is perfect as it sits (need to get those front tires out a bit) - but all of the reasoning behind it is fundamentally sound - one could even argue that it is the beginning of CART part deux where the team owners attack similar issues as in 1979 from a cost perspective instead of a revenue perspective....

I think history will come to regard the introduction of the Deltawing car concept as the second "white paper".......

Agreed. The major fault behind the car was not getting the message out about the car ahead of time. They kept both the car and the message under wraps.

The more you hear about the Delta Wing concept car, as well as Delta Wing LLC in general, the more you feel it is an important step forward.

The lovely thing about this car is that Delta Wing wants to see multiple people building cars based on the concept they put forward. Their entire plan is to open the rules up, yet regulate them as well.

Also, don't forget, this is not the final version of the car. They are going to have to do something to remove the image the front of the car provides, and I think moving the tires out from the chassis would be a good start. Ganassi did say that this is not the final version of the car, and we will see an advanced version.

I really think this is a step that the IRL needs to take. The current formula isn't working, and simply evolving the current formula seems to have a small chance of success just as CCWS had a small level of success with the DP01. Sure, the Delta Wing concept could flop, but I'd rather the series go down swinging instead of simply suffering a slow and drawn out death.

[Scotty G.]

so scotty...

where exactly do you think they can cut costs?

I am not a techincal sort of guy, but I thought the info Miller had last night about the new engines being able to be run 1400 miles between rebuilds was interesting.

ANYTHING that can be done to drastically cut costs (since the costs are still way out-of-whack and the ROI for sponsors not even close to working) should be considered and implemented if possible.

That can be done, with a different looking chassis, I think.

[TURN3]

I thought I seen one of these threads linking to a poll for all the designs...maybe that was just the AR1 home page. At any rate, here is a link to vote on Indycar.com. I figure the more places we can voice our fan preferences the better chance we end up happy. Now with some visual on Lola's concept hopefully we can get a good sample for the league to see.

http://ow.ly/17BdI

[Scotty G.]

They are going to have to do something to remove the image the front of the car provides, and I think moving the tires out from the chassis would be a good start.



Which would make it more like a Super Modified.

The Super Modified is a odd looking thing, but it has a TON of horsepower and creates pretty good racing on ovals.

I really think "hiding" the tires is a big part of this DW design. They don't want cars getting up in the air and possibly into the crowd (which is always a possiblity with open-wheel cars on any sort of oval and on some high speed road courses).

[Chamoo]

I really think "hiding" the tires is a big part of this DW design. They don't want cars getting up in the air and possibly into the crowd (which is always a possiblity with open-wheel cars on any sort of oval and on some high speed road courses).

If the front tires are significantly inside the wheel width of the rear tires, but still outside the body work, I can't see the front tires being able to run over eachother which is the main problem.

I think having them outside the front body work would also help stop people from saying this isn't an open-wheel car.

[Blancvino]

opens up sponsorship sweetheart deals for Trojan, Viagra, etc.


The Trojan's Rough Rider

The Pfizer's Blue Pill Special

The might want to change the name of the driver's compartment!

[NickFalzone]

After seeing all the designs, including the Lola's that came out today, here's my opinion: IRL needs to go with the philosophy behind the Delta Wing (particularly an "open-source" chassis) and go with the look of something between the Delta and the Lola. In other words, take the Delta Wing project, and update it to be a bit less radical in look and style, something that reminds us more of current Indy Cars, but still is VERY forward thinking. I don't think that standalone, Lola, Swift, or Dallara will be a step forward for the series.

[gofastandwynn]

opens up sponsorship sweetheart deals for Trojan, Viagra, etc.

Danica could get a sponsorship from Doc Martens & Carhartt flannel shirts.

Would need a shorter haircut through...

[methanolHuffer]

I hope somebody licenses a scale model to sell to hobbiests.

I've been thinking about assembling again (wintertime and all). It has been almost 20 years since I've built anything, but this concept would fit nicely on my display ledge.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This all has to be just exciting and nerve wracking for everyone. We all have opinions as fans, but there 3 conventional proposals and one game changer on the table and they have to figure out what is the way out. A wrong decision on appareance can lose fans, but a conventional evolution may not work to make the cars race better. I think two designs must be taken, and somehow hope money is founded for Deltawing to put a prototype out there to prove some of the concepts in reality. It is ugly, but what Bowlby WANTS to do is radical....and could make the IRL totally unique again...

[SoCalPVguy]

Its not that I'm opposed to the Delta Wing car, per se... Maybe it's ugly, maybe it looks like a road going penis, but ...Lord knows Indycar needs a new exciting radical break from tradition and infusion of high technology to serve as a means to draw in media interest and re-draw spectators back into the Indy car genre...

Its just that I don't think with its small narrow front tires set so close together, its not gonna work - it is just not going to turn !!!

SoCal PE

[garyshell]

Interesting posts from Paul Tracy on twitter about the DP01. (Note: I edited the three tweets into a single paragraph.)



If you want the truth ! The dp1 car was a good rc car , but as a oval car , the body fit and was terible no 2 parts were ever the same or ever fit the same on the car , the key to a fast oval car is a perfect fit body parts with no gaps or seams , the dp parts fit like crapolla , I'm sure the crapaholics will be pissed at me but that's the truth.


Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Its not that I'm opposed to the Delta Wing car, per se... Maybe it's ugly, maybe it looks like a road going penis, but ...Lord knows Indycar needs a new exciting radical break from tradition and infusion of high technology to serve as a means to draw in media interest and re-draw spectators back into the Indy car genre...

Its just that I don't think with its small narrow front tires set so close together, its not gonna work - it is just not going to turn !!!

SoCal PE

You and I are lay people, we think that based on what we know. The thing is, great ideas never seem plausable. You can be there was guys who saw a plane for the first time at Huffman Prarie in Dayton who thought those Wright boys were fraudsters and then stood back and watched them fly around the field. The concept looks like it wont turn but if Ken Bowlby says it will, I would love him to prove it....

[NickFalzone]

You and I are lay people, we think that based on what we know. The thing is, great ideas never seem plausable. You can be there was guys who saw a plane for the first time at Huffman Prarie in Dayton who thought those Wright boys were fraudsters and then stood back and watched them fly around the field. The concept looks like it wont turn but if Ken Bowlby says it will, I would love him to prove it....

didn't we discuss this earlier in the thread? The car will turn, it uses differential steering. The width of the front wheels is meaningless. Whether it turns as well as Bowlby says it does (better than the current Dallara) is to be seen, but as has been said earlier, the guy is not a complete amateur moron that would put a narrow front end like that if it didn't turn.

[Mark in Oshawa]

didn't we discuss this earlier in the thread? The car will turn, it uses differential steering. The width of the front wheels is meaningless. Whether it turns as well as Bowlby says it does (better than the current Dallara) is to be seen, but as has been said earlier, the guy is not a complete amateur moron that would put a narrow front end like that if it didn't turn.
I know..I keep pointing out until we see this thing in the reality of the race track, we will not know. Personally, I just see the physics of that narrow front end and differential turning or not I don't know.....


The whole thing is I have an open mind on this car, even tho I too don't like the looks of it...

[NickFalzone]

I know..I keep pointing out until we see this thing in the reality of the race track, we will not know. Personally, I just see the physics of that narrow front end and differential turning or not I don't know.....


The whole thing is I have an open mind on this car, even tho I too don't like the looks of it...

I like most aspects of this "potential" car, more so than the competitors. If they could make it look a little less phallic, even better. If they could put more than one on the track and give us some idea of the racing it could provide, that would be ideal. Unfortunately the IRL will be making their decision on which car to go with in a few months from now, before ANY of these designs go on the track. So we're relying on the IRL to make a crucially important decision without a lot to go on outside of the drawing board. My hope and excitement is with the Delta Wing project, but I am far from optimistic that is the direction they will choose.

[indycool]

The Delta Wing is the, IMO, latest pied-piper saviour of the Indy Car world.

15 months ago, we were hearing the virtues extolled about the DP-01, which was supposed to revolutionize Indy Car racing. Those vcars are about a worthwhile as the car Jim Hurtubise unveled in the qualifying line some years back with a case of beer in the engine compartment.

There has been the Antares, the Phoenix, The Falcon. Remember what was done to keep competition equal to Andy Granatelli's turbine or Roger Penske's Merc?

The IRL seems done with the concept of cross-contamination of interests. Tony George killed off his own ill-advised race team. Yiou have independent Indy car-qualified manufacturers like Swift, Dallara and Lola. What is the huge bet, worth millions of dollars, for?

We're going by pictures. No track data. No prototype. No manufacturer.

And would you like to be the first driver to hit the wall with that front end?

Those who prefer this are buying the eggs before they hit the store's parking lot.

[indycool]

The Delta Wing is the, IMO, latest pied-piper saviour of the Indy Car world.

15 months ago, we were hearing the virtues extolled about the DP-01, which was supposed to revolutionize Indy Car racing. Those cars are about as worthwhile now as the car Jim Hurtubise unveiled in the qualifying line some years back with a case of beer in the engine compartment.

There has been the Antares, the Phoenix, The Falcon. Remember what was done to keep competition equal to Andy Granatelli's turbine or Roger Penske's Merc?

The IRL seems done with the concept of cross-contamination of interests. Tony George killed off his own ill-advised race team. Yiou have independent Indy car-qualified manufacturers like Swift, Dallara and Lola. What is the huge bet, worth millions of dollars, for?

We're going by pictures. No track data. No prototype. No manufacturer.

And would you like to be the first driver to hit the wall with that front end?

Those who prefer this are buying the eggs before they hit the store's parking lot.

[SarahFan]

The Delta Wing is the, IMO, latest pied-piper saviour of the Indy Car world.

15 months ago, we were hearing the virtues extolled about the DP-01, which was supposed to revolutionize Indy Car racing. Those cars are about as worthwhile now as the car Jim Hurtubise unveiled in the qualifying line some years back with a case of beer in the engine compartment.

There has been the Antares, the Phoenix, The Falcon. Remember what was done to keep competition equal to Andy Granatelli's turbine or Roger Penske's Merc?

The IRL seems done with the concept of cross-contamination of interests. Tony George killed off his own ill-advised race team. Yiou have independent Indy car-qualified manufacturers like Swift, Dallara and Lola. What is the huge bet, worth millions of dollars, for?

We're going by pictures. No track data. No prototype. No manufacturer.

And would you like to be the first driver to hit the wall with that front end?

Those who prefer this are buying the eggs before they hit the store's parking lot.

wow..... even IC is against it

*not to mention we now have teams 'merging'..ala the last days of champcar....

[V12]

we now have teams 'merging'..ala the last days of champcar....

And NASCAR...

[SarahFan]

And NASCAR...

and nascar what?

[methanolHuffer]

Maybe he's referring to the perceived radicalization that was the Car of Tomorrow(?). Possibly misquoted that post? What say you V12?

I know many a nascar fan had (some still have) reservations about what they drive now.

[garyshell]

Those who prefer this are buying the eggs before they hit the store's parking lot.

No, I think those who have said they prefer the DW are saying they prefer to see it hit the test track to see if it is viable or not. I don't think anyone who has expressed a preference for it are willing to back it without so much as a prototype being built.

Gary

BTW I am curious as to your comment about who wants to be the first to hit "the wall with that front end". Why do you feel the design of the front end is any more fragile than those we have now?

[garyshell]

*not to mention we now have teams 'merging'..ala the last days of champcar....


And NASCAR...


and nascar what?

Gee Ken, it's not as if V12 didn't quote EXACTLY what was being compared as similar to NASCAR. 'Twas your swipe at teams merging.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Gee Ken, it's not as if V12 didn't quote EXACTLY what was being compared as similar to NASCAR. 'Twas your swipe at teams merging.

Gary


and as i posted.....it is in fact more similar to champcar than nascar


your milage or rose colored glases may vary

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Delta Wing is the, IMO, latest pied-piper saviour of the Indy Car world..

No...it is just a really radical concept. I don't recall anyone saying it was the only solution other than the people backing the project.


15 months ago, we were hearing the virtues extolled about the DP-01, which was supposed to revolutionize Indy Car racing. Those vcars are about a worthwhile as the car Jim Hurtubise unveled in the qualifying line some years back with a case of beer in the engine compartment..
The DP-01 was not a joke, it was a pretty decent race car, and it only had one year of service. We don't know how it could have evolved. I don't doubt it could have been adapted to run Indy and other ovals just as the Dallara was made to turn right.


There has been the Antares, the Phoenix, The Falcon. Remember what was done to keep competition equal to Andy Granatelli's turbine or Roger Penske's Merc?.

Changing the rules when one one guy builds a better mousetrap is a fine Indy tradition. I am almost shocked that USAC didn't try to ban midengined IndyCars when Brabham showed up with the Cooper in 61. They killed mid engined sprint cars.....


The IRL seems done with the concept of cross-contamination of interests. Tony George killed off his own ill-advised race team. Yiou have independent Indy car-qualified manufacturers like Swift, Dallara and Lola. What is the huge bet, worth millions of dollars, for?

We're going by pictures. No track data. No prototype. No manufacturer.

And would you like to be the first driver to hit the wall with that front end?

Those who prefer this are buying the eggs before they hit the store's parking lot.

First off, an engineer designed the car. One who has designed cars for Lola and others in the past. If he says it is "crashable" I will take his word on it. It is a concept..nothing more, but there are interesting ideas and technologies being advocated that I would love to see proven or disproven in this design before I just write it off as ugly. Heck, the Dallara has been around almost a decade and we still don't accept its look.

[indycool]

Gary, Ken, Mark,

With the long nose, the DW can't be that rigid in the front, even though the drivers' feet will be well behind. I don't know where the chassis' firewall points are but it looks toi me like the car's center of gravity will be well back. On today's tracks, contact with a sideways car could be very nasty.

Lack of testing, particularly crash testing, disturbs me. Those side-by-side shots of a dragster and the DW make me wonder about Turn 11 at Long Beach and if the turn ratio is actually good enough to make it.

I just think a lot more needs to be done before we see the thing in competition.

[garyshell]

Gary, Ken, Mark,

With the long nose, the DW can't be that rigid in the front, even though the drivers' feet will be well behind. I don't know where the chassis' firewall points are but it looks toi me like the car's center of gravity will be well back. On today's tracks, contact with a sideways car could be very nasty.

Lack of testing, particularly crash testing, disturbs me. Those side-by-side shots of a dragster and the DW make me wonder about Turn 11 at Long Beach and if the turn ratio is actually good enough to make it.

I just think a lot more needs to be done before we see the thing in competition.


How do you know how rigid it might or might not be, have you had a chance to see under the skin? Come on IC, give the designer a LITLE credit he knows ful well what the structural requirements are.

Why should lack of testing disturb you? This was and is a design exercise no more no less. The next phase (if it advances to that) would be to build a proototype and begin the testing phase. You are acting as if they plan to go into production immediately? Sheesh, man, did you not ready any of the press releases??? They all said pretty much the last thing your sentence does.

I would fully understand your comments if an announcment was made or even a suggestion was made that the car was ready to go as is. But that has never been suggested even by the folks here who are in "voting" in favor of the car.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Gary, Ken, Mark,

With the long nose, the DW can't be that rigid in the front, even though the drivers' feet will be well behind. I don't know where the chassis' firewall points are but it looks toi me like the car's center of gravity will be well back. On today's tracks, contact with a sideways car could be very nasty.

Lack of testing, particularly crash testing, disturbs me. Those side-by-side shots of a dragster and the DW make me wonder about Turn 11 at Long Beach and if the turn ratio is actually good enough to make it.

I just think a lot more needs to be done before we see the thing in competition.

IC, I echo most of Gary's points (if not all). This is a concept and the guy who designed the thing is claiming all this good stuff that it can bring to the IRL. He isn't some turkey out of the asylum on a day pass, he was a former chief designer for Lola, who the last time I looked built some rather successful race cars. If he says it will be safe, it likely will be. Carbon fibre is a wonderful substance. I agree it doesn't LOOK like it will work, but if the guy builds this beast and it works, you might be eating enough crow that you would be coughing up feathers.

What we are pointing out is there is a LOT of concepts and ideas on this thing that are pretty good ideas in THEORY. We didn't say we want the car in the field next May in Indy.....

[indycool]

I stand corrected. You guys are looking to the futrure with this thing and I am, too. The sport isn't going to get healthy with it right now, but it may in soime form in the future.

[chuck34]

Actually I have to side with IC a bit on this one. The nose is so far cantilevered out there and so thin that it will be suseptible to breaking at about the middle if a nose first sort of angled impact would happen. Right about where the drivers knees appear to go. Now they could beef up the structure there so that it wouldn't break. But that adds weight, even if it's made out of kevlar/carbon/honeycomb. And weight in a three wheeler (which basically this is) is a bad thing when it's away from the end with two wheels because the farther the CG is from the two wheeled end the more dynamically unstable it is.

Now that being said, I also side with Mark and some others. If this thing is built, and is allowed to run against other designs (sort of like the "good old days"), and beats the snot out of them, then I'm all for it. But I doubt that the current mindset of single make chassis is about to change. So we'll see what happens.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually I have to side with IC a bit on this one. The nose is so far cantilevered out there and so thin that it will be suseptible to breaking at about the middle if a nose first sort of angled impact would happen. Right about where the drivers knees appear to go. Now they could beef up the structure there so that it wouldn't break. But that adds weight, even if it's made out of kevlar/carbon/honeycomb. And weight in a three wheeler (which basically this is) is a bad thing when it's away from the end with two wheels because the farther the CG is from the two wheeled end the more dynamically unstable it is.

Now that being said, I also side with Mark and some others. If this thing is built, and is allowed to run against other designs (sort of like the "good old days"), and beats the snot out of them, then I'm all for it. But I doubt that the current mindset of single make chassis is about to change. So we'll see what happens.

I was on the Autoweek website reading about the stillborn USf1 effort, and took a link to their story on the Delta Wing project. The whole idea of this thing is to build one prototype and then let everyone have the data and plans. They want teams to take this concept and do what they want to evolve it.

The other point is you guys keep looking at that long nose and thinking it will break in half but if the driver is set back in far enough, a lot of that nose is crushzone. With carbon fibre, this concept is likely doable. They say they can make it work...I hear your complaints Chuck and IC about that nose, but I am thinking that they must have examined this concept's flaws, detratctors and issues and stand behind it on something more than good will. They have numbers and they have some idea of what is required from an engineering standpoint.

IT may be ugly, but the engineering of this is so far beyond anyone's logic in the evolution of the race car that if this thing hits the track and does HALF of what they claim, then it is a step up.

[SarahFan]

The whole idea of this thing is to build one prototype and then let everyone have the data and plans. They want teams to take this concept and do what they want to evolve it.
.

this is where i get hung up on the entire project related to cost...

one actual builders get hold of the basic 'conceptual plans'.....and reengineer it ... tweak it test modify it update it build and deliver it I dont believe the projected 1/4 to 1/2 cost for a second.......

[chuck34]

I was on the Autoweek website reading about the stillborn USf1 effort, and took a link to their story on the Delta Wing project. The whole idea of this thing is to build one prototype and then let everyone have the data and plans. They want teams to take this concept and do what they want to evolve it.

That might work. I like the idea of having a tub type structure that others can modify. Not sure if that is exactly what they have in mind, but could be. :-/


The other point is you guys keep looking at that long nose and thinking it will break in half but if the driver is set back in far enough, a lot of that nose is crushzone. With carbon fibre, this concept is likely doable. They say they can make it work...I hear your complaints Chuck and IC about that nose, but I am thinking that they must have examined this concept's flaws, detratctors and issues and stand behind it on something more than good will. They have numbers and they have some idea of what is required from an engineering standpoint.

Yes, that long nose is a big crush zone, in a head on impact. How often does that happen? More often than not, there is an angle between the car and the wall. That creates a moment arm somewhere in the chassis. This has a tendency to shear the tub basically in the middle. Think Stan Fox at Indy in '95.

As for your faith in these guys' engineering abilities ... While I agree they have done some good cars in the past, but this is slightly different. Everything I've read suggests that they have focused mostly on the aero bits of the car. Lots of CFD, and wind tunnel time. That along with the relatively short time they've been doing this, I wonder how much time they've really spent on crash testing/modeling. If I've missed that in one of the many press releases please point me to it. But until I see some crash tests, or FEA models, I have my doubts. After all, like you keep saying, this is a model, not even a prototype yet. So I'm skeptical at this point, sorry.


IT may be ugly, but the engineering of this is so far beyond anyone's logic in the evolution of the race car that if this thing hits the track and does HALF of what they claim, then it is a step up.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." Not sure who said that, but it seems to fit in this case. And some of us do have, at least, a basic understanding of engineering, specifically race car dynamics, so I'm not sure it's "beyond anyone's logic".

[Mark in Oshawa]

this is where i get hung up on the entire project related to cost...

one actual builders get hold of the basic 'conceptual plans'.....and reengineer it ... tweak it test modify it update it build and deliver it I dont believe the projected 1/4 to 1/2 cost for a second.......

That is valid....but at some point this controlling of cost is just a myth in my books anyhow. The only way you control cost is to have a spec series, which all but a few of us DON'T want.....

AT some point, people have to wake up and realize that racing is expensive, and how fast you want to go is related to how much you want to spend. Penske and Ganassi won all but one race last year in a series where there is cost containment and everyone races the same car. Obviously money still buys speed anyhow.....

[indycool]

Money gets you to the race track, anyhow, Mark. That's why cost containment is a big issue, especially now. It, sadly, ain't the '50s and '60s anymore.

[ShiftingGears]

Much bigger fan of the Swift.

[V12]

Sorry, the NASCAR reference was about teams merging, e.g.

DEI absorbed another team (MB2?), and then merged with Ganassi and gone from running approx 8 cars between the 3 teams, to just 2.
Evernham merged with Petty and then with Yates, probably halfing the number of cars run between them.

The only Champ Car team merger I remember was RuSport/Rocketsports.

I'm not debating IndyCar is in a far more dire state than NASCAR, but team mergers have hit NASCAR far more than IndyCar, especially considering de Ferran wasn't here before anyway, so we haven't lost a car (and might gain one if they are able to expand to two as a result)

[Blancvino]

This all seems like a Berniesque type publicity stunt.

This bugger is never going to see the light of day as a human driven race car; unless they move the Indy 500 to the IRP Drag Strip or to the Bonneville Salt Flats.

Just one man's opinion.

[Chamoo]

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but everyone on here saying that the thing won't turn is slapping Ben Bowlby right in the face. Considering this man does this for a living, and knows whether this thing will turn or not, I'm willing to throw my trust behind him. Maybe you should atleast give him the benefit of the doubt that the car will turn when he says it will.

[the bro]

I agree, all of the criticism of the car is about how it looks. We have very little idea what is under the skin to make the car perform. Somewhat silly to suggest that they didn't look at all the tracks it will race on, to make sure it can go around the turns. Seems pretty basic. If it can make it through the hairpin at Long Beach, that about covers it.

[garyshell]

Sorry, the NASCAR reference was about teams merging, e.g.

DEI absorbed another team (MB2?), and then merged with Ganassi and gone from running approx 8 cars between the 3 teams, to just 2.
Evernham merged with Petty and then with Yates, probably halfing the number of cars run between them.

The only Champ Car team merger I remember was RuSport/Rocketsports.

I'm not debating IndyCar is in a far more dire state than NASCAR, but team mergers have hit NASCAR far more than IndyCar, especially considering de Ferran wasn't here before anyway, so we haven't lost a car (and might gain one if they are able to expand to two as a result)


Nothing to be sorry about, he knew full well what the reference was.

Gary

[garyshell]

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but everyone on here saying that the thing won't turn is slapping Ben Bowlby right in the face. Considering this man does this for a living, and knows whether this thing will turn or not, I'm willing to throw my trust behind him. Maybe you should atleast give him the benefit of the doubt that the car will turn when he says it will.


What? You mean all these doubters don't have x-ray vision and telepathic powers to examine the car in detail from the comfort of their overstuffed arm chairs. Say it ain't so! I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you!

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sorry, the NASCAR reference was about teams merging, e.g.

DEI absorbed another team (MB2?), and then merged with Ganassi and gone from running approx 8 cars between the 3 teams, to just 2.
Evernham merged with Petty and then with Yates, probably halfing the number of cars run between them.

The only Champ Car team merger I remember was RuSport/Rocketsports.

I'm not debating IndyCar is in a far more dire state than NASCAR, but team mergers have hit NASCAR far more than IndyCar, especially considering de Ferran wasn't here before anyway, so we haven't lost a car (and might gain one if they are able to expand to two as a result)

In NASCAR they had more to merge....

[chuck34]

What? You mean all these doubters don't have x-ray vision and telepathic powers to examine the car in detail from the comfort of their overstuffed arm chairs. Say it ain't so! I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you!

Gary

You don't need X-Ray vision, just a bit of knowlege of physics. That thing will not turn if it only has conventional type steering. Why do you think dragsters, and land speed record cars are built like that?

Now the thing that this car does have going for it is the "differential steering". That should help it quite a bit, as long as it doesn't go haywire. But hey, when was the last time something on a race car didn't work exaclty as it was supposed to?

[Lousada]

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but everyone on here saying that the thing won't turn is slapping Ben Bowlby right in the face. Considering this man does this for a living, and knows whether this thing will turn or not, I'm willing to throw my trust behind him. Maybe you should atleast give him the benefit of the doubt that the car will turn when he says it will.

Ben Bowlby himself said that this is just a concept. And even Ben Bowlby cannot change the laws of physics.

[Lousada]

You don't need X-Ray vision, just a bit of knowlege of physics. That thing will not turn if it only has conventional type steering. Why do you think dragsters, and land speed record cars are built like that?

Now the thing that this car does have going for it is the "differential steering". That should help it quite a bit, as long as it doesn't go haywire. But hey, when was the last time something on a race car didn't work exaclty as it was supposed to?

Bowlby said it would have conventional steering (=via the front wheels).

[garyshell]

Bowlby said it would have conventional steering (=via the front wheels).


Got quote? All reports I read said differential steering.

Gary

[garyshell]

You don't need X-Ray vision, just a bit of knowlege of physics. That thing will not turn if it only has conventional type steering. Why do you think dragsters, and land speed record cars are built like that?

Wow really? Gee, I never would have known. :rolleyes:


Now the thing that this car does have going for it is the "differential steering". That should help it quite a bit, as long as it doesn't go haywire. But hey, when was the last time something on a race car didn't work exaclty as it was supposed to?

Well, hell then lets take the wings, brakes, fuel valves etc off the cars. None of this new fangled technology stuff can be trusted at all.

Gary

[chuck34]

Well, hell then lets take the wings, brakes, fuel valves etc off the cars. None of this new fangled technology stuff can be trusted at all.


I'm not saying that it can't be trusted. Just that it is something new, and must go through a pretty exhausting testing phase before I'll put my total trust in it.

Remember that in the 60's lots of wings failed. Same goes for all the other "new" stuff. Again, I'm not saying that it won't work, just that I'd need to see quite a bit of testing before I'd put my total faith in it (ie: run a whole series dependent on this tech.)

[Chris R]

I'm not saying that it can't be trusted. Just that it is something new, and must go through a pretty exhausting testing phase before I'll put my total trust in it.

Remember that in the 60's lots of wings failed. Same goes for all the other "new" stuff. Again, I'm not saying that it won't work, just that I'd need to see quite a bit of testing before I'd put my total faith in it (ie: run a whole series dependent on this tech.)

Chuck, you make a good point. Innovation is a wonderful thing - but it could be very dangerous in a spec series. The 60's were great because there were a lot of cars that tried new ideas and fundamentally failed - which is fine for 1 car but not for a field of them.... There are also lots of ideas tried on cars that basically failed that were later integrated into highly successful cars....

I like the concept behind the Delta wing - perhaps not so much the exact look - but they are going ot have to be very careful to make sure everything is PERFECT if it is going to be another spec car.....

[Lousada]

Got quote? All reports I read said differential steering.

Gary

He said it on the radio, I think on Trackside with Curt Cavin.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think the worries about the steering is a VERY valid point. It is the one thing that I view about this car that I do find questions with is the steering. Bowlby's contention that differential steering would help sounds a little too Star Wars for my taste.

That I think will be the change that will happen to this concept when the car hits the track. The Deltawing will likely have a shorter nose, wider front track and more conventional ideas. I think the steering is one thing but I also now think the suspension and tracking of that front end will be more complicated in that front end. That said...he is the engineer, I am just a track rat. Let him continue on...his claims and ideas are refreshing..and god knows this sport needs a clearing of the air on ideas.

[Chamoo]

From Popoffvalve.com

Delta Wing Variation (http://www.popoffvalve.com/2010/2/18/1316532/indycar-fans-designs-changing)

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think this picture shows a little more realistic look at the concept, thanks for the link Chamoo...

[SarahFan]

mark.....why do think some fans reworked mock-up of the ACTUAL model that deltawingLLc rolled is more realistic?

[chuck34]

I think this picture shows a little more realistic look at the concept, thanks for the link Chamoo...

The problem is that it didn't change anything in any substantal way. Yes, it looks different (maybe a bit better). But it still has the same basic steering flaws, too long a wheel base and too narrow a front track. THAT is what I see as a fault with it, the dynamics of the thing, not the looks. But then again I'm an engineer not an artist, so what do I know? ;-)

[Chamoo]

The problem is that it didn't change anything in any substantal way. Yes, it looks different (maybe a bit better). But it still has the same basic steering flaws, too long a wheel base and too narrow a front track. THAT is what I see as a fault with it, the dynamics of the thing, not the looks. But then again I'm an engineer not an artist, so what do I know? ;-)

Chuck, you are saying what many people are saying about the car not turning and the long wheel base being bad. I'm not trying to sound like a prick, but you and everyone else saying these things is basically calling Ben Bowlby a liar. This man just put in a year working on this thing. If he says it will turn, I believe him. If he says it will be stable, I believe him.

Have some faith in the man.

Again, this isn't a personal shot at you Chuck, not trying to pick you out of the crowd, you just happened to be the last person to post in this thread lol.

[SarahFan]

Has an engineer ever been wrong?

[Chamoo]

Has an engineer ever been wrong?

I see your point Ken. However, this is a man who penned the Lola B03/00. A man who Chip Ganassi trusted with this project.

Bowlby is more or less staking his reputation on this project. He just spent a full year working on this. I just feel that when he says the car will turn, the car will turn.

When non-engineers trying telling an engineer he is wrong, it usually doesn't go in the non-engineers favor.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chamoo, you and I keep pointing out Bowlby is an engineer who designed race cars, and these guys will stand around saying "ummm I don't think so" but until the car is reality, we have only Bowlby to go by.

I am with you, he has too much at stake reputation wise. Just rememeber, "experts" can be wrong, but they are "experts" usually for a reason....

[SarahFan]

Oh come on mark....your the guy who took a mockup from a forumfan and claimed it to be more 'realistic'

[chuck34]

Listen guys, for the record, I am an engineer. I don't want to tell you exactly what I do, but it is related to the race industry. I do know some things about vehicle dynamics. Not as much as Bowlby, but some. Bowlby has designed great cars before, but to hold him up as someone who can not ever make a mistake, even big mistakes, is foolish.

I have never said that this design won't work. It will work as long as this new, never been tested in race conditions, very complicated, electronically controled differential steering works. All I'm saying is that VERY EXTENSIVE TESTING needs to be done on this system before I'd go staking the entire series on this thing.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[Chris R]

Just to put thing in perspective:
Smokey Yunick had the "side car"
Harry Miller had the Miller-Ford and later the Gulf-Miller
Colin Chapman had numerous failures amongst many brilliant cars....
Maurice Phillipe designed the Louts 72 and then the first Parnelli Indycar (the one with the funky wings that was a flop)
John Barnard had a couple of flops in there...


My point is that engineers/designers get it wrong - sometimes in a big and apparently obvious way... To defend Bowlby blindly is the same as saying the concept is junk blindly....

The steering concerns seems pretty valid to me... it is pretty easy to see these cars at an oval - much more difficult to see them in the Long Beach hairpin....

You can respect the engineer and still want to see his ideas proven....

[methanolHuffer]

I bet they could make a wider front clip for road courses only. And for ovals reconfigure the car into a slim front end.

The purpose of efficiency is more for promotional value more than genuine contribution to green movements. That's only my opinion.

You know those CSX freight train commercials you see all over television now? Claims of moving 1 ton over 400+ miles per gallon of diesel fuel? I'm pretty sure that is pretty optimistic even at peak efficiency. That is, not taking into account starting off, getting up to speed, crosswind resistance, blah blah, etc etc. It's a great attention getter - but not reality.

[FormerFF]

Listen guys, for the record, I am an engineer. I don't want to tell you exactly what I do, but it is related to the race industry. I do know some things about vehicle dynamics. Not as much as Bowlby, but some. Bowlby has designed great cars before, but to hold him up as someone who can not ever make a mistake, even big mistakes, is foolish.

I have never said that this design won't work. It will work as long as this new, never been tested in race conditions, very complicated, electronically controled differential steering works. All I'm saying is that VERY EXTENSIVE TESTING needs to be done on this system before I'd go staking the entire series on this thing.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

+1 on that. If the design goal was to set a closed course land speed record, no one would be second guessing Bowlby. There is no good data on how effective a narrow front track car with an extreme rear weight bias would be in a track racing situation. There is data that indicates the narrow front track will be a problem, so it's only reasonable to be sceptical. No one is currently using differential steering in a high speed environment, so until it is proven to work, this car is nothing more than a design exercise.

[Andrewmcm]

I see on AR1's home page that there are some CFD images of the Delta Wing. Are these available to the public (i.e. non subscribers)? If so, where can they be obtained? I'm interested to see what conventional RANS models make of the body shape.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Oh come on mark....your the guy who took a mockup from a forumfan and claimed it to be more 'realistic'

???? Don't recall that...but then again, unlike some, I admit I get things wrong.

It just makes me laugh that guys are judging the engineering without seeing it. I remain skeptical, but I would like to know what Bowlby did before judging him.

[SarahFan]

Back on post 219....

Did you not claim a photoshoped version of the dw created by a memeber of another forum was a more realistic interpretaion of the concept

?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Back on post 219....

Did you not claim a photoshoped version of the dw created by a memeber of another forum was a more realistic interpretaion of the concept

?

Right...well you have me on that one. My point was and is tho this guy didn't fall off the turnip truck and he is presenting us with a concept, not a done deal. I would like to see what he has planned. My comment on the photoshopped pic being more realistic is likely what might happen but, I am not so skeptical to think Bowlby's ideas WONT work, as many have asserted.

[gofastandwynn]

I see your point Ken. However, this is a man who penned the Lola B03/00. A man who Chip Ganassi trusted with this project.



And?

Colin Chapman designed the Lotus 49, 72, 79 and followed them up with the Lotus 63, 76, 80 respectively.

Jim Hall followed the 2 E/F/G with the 2H.

I could keep going and bring up Maurice Philippe, John Barnard, Nigel Bennett, Alan Jenkins, and so on, all had great designs that had flops that followed.