Toyota Recall

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It seems the worlds biggest car manufacturer has had to recall thousands of its vehicles due to a sticking accelerator pedal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8473789.stm

That is exactly what Toyota drivers need. I sticking accelerator pedal!!! It might speed the old farts up and stop them from holding up every other normal motorist.

[Jag_Warrior]

Maybe they should have fitted their F1 cars with sticking accelrator pedals. Couldn't have hurt. :dozey:

But jokes aside, for a company that prides itself on problem solving, Kaizen and process improvements, this is a real kick to the nads. And on the PR front, other than most Tony George interviews, I can't remember seeing a bigger screwing of the pooch:

It's the floor mats! Yeah, that's the ticket! We're sure! What, the floor mats were in the trunk??? :confused: It's a bad accelerator pedal! Yeah, that's the ticket! We're sure! What, the cars are now accelerating on their own??? :confused: :eek: Leave the mic open... we'll be right back. :mad:

[Daniel]

I can only see this getting worse for Toyota....

[chuck34]

Apparently the Prius now has issues as well. Looks like when you hit the brakes, the car accelerates. That would be bad, right? :-)

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/03/autos/prius_complaints/index.htm

[Daniel]

Apparently the Prius now has issues as well. Looks like when you hit the brakes, the car accelerates. That would be bad, right? :-)

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/03/autos/prius_complaints/index.htm
I heard about this. Do they actually accelerate or do they accelerate along with braking? I don't quite understand how that would work because I don't think there are any brake by wire systems out there?

[Langdale Forest]

Everyone seems to have a Toyota these days, but why oh why would anyone buy a URBAN CRUISER, it looks boring and stupid and it looks like a BEETLE.

Calling someone a Toyota is still a bit harsh though. :rolleyes: :uhoh:

btw I hate priuses because they are boring and they don't seem like a proper car.

[Daniel]

I heard about this. Do they actually accelerate or do they accelerate along with braking? I don't quite understand how that would work because I don't think there are any brake by wire systems out there?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire

Oops..... Toyota use brake by wire technology.

How ****ing stupid is that. My 500 has a fly by wire throttle and tbh I've not got a problem with that but the brakes are proper hydraulic ones. People do however claim that you can activate the brakes from the passenger seat if you step on the bar that runs from right to left to connect the pedal to the brake master cylinder

http://members.iinet.net.au/~fenix1983/Files/500/Bar/DSC_5834.JPG

Personally I've tried and you have to make a huge effort just to turn the brakes on let along get any actual braking force....

[chuck34]

I heard about this. Do they actually accelerate or do they accelerate along with braking? I don't quite understand how that would work because I don't think there are any brake by wire systems out there?

I'm not sure about this, but I heard it from someone and it makes sence. But it's like 4th or 5th hand so take it for what it's worth.

Apparently when you first start braking on a Prius, you don't use the pads. It goes straight into the regenerative mode (electric motor engaged, pulling a load, slowing the car). Also, it appears that this only happens on rough roads or over pot-holes. So what I could see happening is that the car isn't "braking" in the traditonal sence, then it hits a bump of some sort, that tells the computer that some ABS may be needed, and there is a programing glitch that somehow reverses the electric motor from braking mode to accelerating mode. Anyway, that sort of makes sence in my mind. But my mind can be a bit twisted at times. :-)

[Daniel]

I'm not sure about this, but I heard it from someone and it makes sence. But it's like 4th or 5th hand so take it for what it's worth.

Apparently when you first start braking on a Prius, you don't use the pads. It goes straight into the regenerative mode (electric motor engaged, pulling a load, slowing the car). Also, it appears that this only happens on rough roads or over pot-holes. So what I could see happening is that the car isn't "braking" in the traditonal sence, then it hits a bump of some sort, that tells the computer that some ABS may be needed, and there is a programing glitch that somehow reverses the electric motor from braking mode to accelerating mode. Anyway, that sort of makes sence in my mind. But my mind can be a bit twisted at times. :-)
Well either way the rather smug couple who gave me a lift back from my nephews christening in London won't be so bloody snug now. Just hope there's a recall on their Honda Civic hybrid thingy now :D

[Dave B]

Wait a minute, I'm confused. Are you saying that Priuses can actually get up to a speed where they need brakes?!

[Mark]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire
How ****ing stupid is that. My 500 has a fly by wire throttle and tbh I've not got a problem with that


I think most cars do these days. It's easier for packaging if the throttle is just a potentiometer which transmits to an actuator valve.

In my previous Fiesta it did fail a few times, but it just meant I coasted to a stop.



but the brakes are proper hydraulic ones.

Indeed, hydraulics are very reliable, and they work! Brakes are absolutely safety critical, much more so than the throttle is.

It's easy to test what sort of brakes you have, in the car with the engine off, pump the brake pedal, if they are hydraulic, then it'll quickly become impossible to push it down again.

[Easy Drifter]

Remember Tazio Nuvolari--
'Brakes are no good-- they just slow you down.'

[Daniel]

It's easy to test what sort of brakes you have, in the car with the engine off, pump the brake pedal, if they are hydraulic, then it'll quickly become impossible to push it down again.

I remember sitting in Colin's Impreza and attempting to pump the brakes and they were rock hard with perhaps a mm of slack in them at most and the firewall certainly didn't flex like it does in a road car :D

[Mark]

When I was in secondary school Colin McRae and Prodrive came in to do a talk in around 1996 I think, and I remember sitting in the car whilst he explained what all the knobs did. What a legend


Wow!



.. I'm sure he'd be able to stop a Toyota with no brakes however.. :p

Toyota rally cars usually just stopped of their own accord anyway :p

[Daniel]

When I was in secondary school Colin McRae and Prodrive came in to do a talk in around 1996 I think, and I remember sitting in the car whilst he explained what all the knobs did. What a legend.. I'm sure he'd be able to stop a Toyota with no brakes however.. :p
He'd just crash it. He was indestructable in a car! Sadly not so in a helicopter :(

[Mark]

Sorry that was OT, back to Toyota's and their failing brakes.. :)

Well I think the issue is more their sticky throttles!
I don't specifically know what the problem is, if they are just getting mechanically stuck somehow or if the electronic system is failing maximum rather than failing safe.

[MrJan]

Are they taking back '92 MR2s as well? I went for a drive up Cheddar Gorge over the weekend and at some points it certainly seemed as though the throttle was stuck to the floor :D

http://www.mr2oc.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/drive1.gif

[555-04Q2]

Bad news for Toyota this whole sticky throttle thing. At least they dont try and cover it up the way Mitsubishi did a few years back with their defective braking systems. Must be costing Toyota big tom to fix the problem.

[Mark]

At least they dont try and cover it up the way Mitsubishi did a few years back with their defective braking systems. Must be costing Toyota big tom to fix the problem.

And Renault with the defective bonnet catches.

[MrJan]

Must be costing Toyota big tom to fix the problem.

The lack of sales over the next 5-10 years will probably cost them more. This is a huge own goal that means all but the most loyal Toyota supporter could be put off.

[Daniel]

The lack of sales over the next 5-10 years will probably cost them more. This is a huge own goal that means all but the most loyal Toyota supporter could be put off.
and people have apparently died because of this, it's not just precautionary like most recalls.

[christophulus]

and people have apparently died because of this, it's not just precautionary like most recalls.

They did. A Lexus had this problem, four people killed :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8497128.stm (UK users)

I'm guessing it's a lot worse in an automatic car, at least in a manual you can knock it into neutral and hit the brakes.

[Daniel]

They did. A Lexus had this problem, four people killed :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8497128.stm (UK users)

I'm guessing it's a lot worse in an automatic car, at least in a manual you can knock it into neutral and hit the brakes.
With an auto you just put it in neutral. If it's the guy I'm thinking about he should have held the stop start button down for a few seconds.

[Mark]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8498257.stm

Some good advice there.
The only think I would add to that is their 'last resort' suggestion of turning the engine off. If you do have to cut the ignition, turn the key down one click so the engine cuts out, but as soon as you can turn the key back to the 'ii' position as this will make sure most of the cars systems, including steering, keep working for a while.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I've been campaigning for a ban on Toyota's for a long time!

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131875&highlight=toyota

[Daniel]

I've been campaigning for a ban on Toyota's for a long time!

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131875&highlight=toyota
With a track record like that you could easily appear on BBC News 24 as an expert!

[Sonic]

and people have apparently died because of this, it's not just precautionary like most recalls.

That's terrible. :(

its not a nice feeling having the gas stick wide open - happened to me once whilst giving demo laps in a Ferrari 348 (terrible car) - and it does take a second for the brain to realise what has happened and shut off the engine. So on the road, with dozens of car around, that second could make all the difference; hence the fatalities.

[Daniel]

That's terrible. :(

its not a nice feeling having the gas stick wide open - happened to me once whilst giving demo laps in a Ferrari 348 (terrible car) - and it does take a second for the brain to realise what has happened and shut off the engine. So on the road, with dozens of car around, that second could make all the difference; hence the fatalities.
Well this person called 911 and was actually a Police officer. A bit silly imho and an accident that could have been avoided by putting the car into neutral or just turning it off....

[Sonic]

Well this person called 911 and was actually a Police officer. A bit silly imho and an accident that could have been avoided by putting the car into neutral or just turning it off....

Ah well that's a bit silly then. I suppose too much time to think is a bad thing too. What did he do? Convince himself he wouldn't be able to steer/brake if he switched off?

[Mark in Oshawa]

What bothers me is the US Transportation secretary has really been badmouthing Toyota and how they are handlling it, but I would have to say Ray LaHood has a conflict of interest. GM is owned partially now by the US gov't.....so you have the regulator now being one of the participants in the game. Funny, they didn't shut Ford down when Explorers were flipping over left and right. I think Toyota has tried to do the right thing by stopping everything, but I believe this new issue with the Prius might kick the sales of that overpriced waste of time in the teeth. Bout time the environazi's who buy them as fashion statements figured out it is an overated car, and a TDI Jetta would be a better car AND more enviro friendly.

[Sonic]

What bothers me is the US Transportation secretary has really been badmouthing Toyota and how they are handlling it, but I would have to say Ray LaHood has a conflict of interest. GM is owned partially now by the US gov't.....so you have the regulator now being one of the participants in the game. Funny, they didn't shut Ford down when Explorers were flipping over left and right. I think Toyota has tried to do the right thing by stopping everything, but I believe this new issue with the Prius might kick the sales of that overpriced waste of time in the teeth. Bout time the environazi's who buy them as fashion statements figured out it is an overated car, and a TDI Jetta would be a better car AND more enviro friendly.

Well said about the Prius Mark. Over priced and it doesn't do what it says on the tin.

On the subject of Lexus - why are they not being recalled in UK when that Trooper was driving one? They are the same both sides of the atlantic aren't they?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well said about the Prius Mark. Over priced and it doesn't do what it says on the tin.

On the subject of Lexus - why are they not being recalled in UK when that Trooper was driving one? They are the same both sides of the atlantic aren't they?

They are...

I feel bad for Toyota really. They have just done their marketing well and built solid cars, and then ONE fault has turned into a giant snowball. I saw what the unintended acceleration controversay did to Audi in America and I think there is way more hype than substance to this...except in the case of the Prius. The module that does the brake regen is a fault, but I would suggest it is a new fault, since previous models didn't do this...

[Sonic]

They are...

No sign of a UK recall for Lexus's (or is it Lexi).

[chuck34]

What bothers me is the US Transportation secretary has really been badmouthing Toyota and how they are handlling it, but I would have to say Ray LaHood has a conflict of interest. GM is owned partially now by the US gov't.....so you have the regulator now being one of the participants in the game.

Yep, this is a BIG conflict of interest. I think Toyota has a case to sue LaHood, if that's possible, for anti-trust or some such thing.

[Jag_Warrior]

I've had a very high opinion of Toyota for the past 20 years or so - not for the cars, but their manufacturing processes. About 10 years ago I became involved in a program that put me with a Japanese Sensei who worked for the Toyoda family at one point. Toyota's devotion to the culture of Kaizen is what the company is based on... and a BIG reason for its success.

But what's going on now has nothing to do with Kaizen... quite the opposite. Some of these braking and acceleration issues have apparently been known about for at least two, if not the past four years. At the very least, there was a suspicion, which warranted indepth root cause analysis. And the more info that comes out, the worse it looks for Toyota (and NHTSA). It's looking more & more like Toyota knew, and NHTSA worked with them to keep it under wraps.

The thing that really set me off was when I read that the floormats were identified as the root cause of the accelerator issue, Toyota was able to work with NHTSA and have it NOT labeled as a "safety issue". WTF?! I'm sure the NHTSA guy who got hired by Toyota had nothing to do with the kid glove treatment. :rolleyes: Was there a single agency not playing pocket pool with the private sector over the past decade??????????

I'm not feeling any sympathy for Toyota right now. Not at all.
Will fallout from Toyota throttle issue result in tighter NHTSA recall rules? (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/03/will-fallout-from-toyota-throttle-issue-result-in-tighter-nhtsa/)

[Jag_Warrior]

Yep, this is a BIG conflict of interest. I think Toyota has a case to sue LaHood, if that's possible, for anti-trust or some such thing.

Toyota will be happy enough if the North American owners aren't successful in getting their pending cases to class action status. They just want this to go away.

And how in the world would Toyota sue Ray LaHood for anti-trust? :confused:

[555-04Q2]

Yep, this is a BIG conflict of interest. I think Toyota has a case to sue LaHood, if that's possible, for anti-trust or some such thing.

You guys love the courts over there :p :

[Daniel]

:rotflmao:

DID PRINCESS DI'S LIMO HAVE TOYOTA ACCELERATOR PEDAL FITTED? EXCLUSIVE NEW EVIDENCE P12 Plus migrant piss take story and house price crash forecast p1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10/11




Toyota Accelerator Pedal Disaster: Are immigrant terrorist extremists to blame?

Yes. (continued next page)

[Daniel]

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/exclusive-ttac-takes-apart-both-toyota-gas-pedals/

[chuck34]

Toyota will be happy enough if the North American owners aren't successful in getting their pending cases to class action status. They just want this to go away.

And how in the world would Toyota sue Ray LaHood for anti-trust? :confused:

Maybe not anti-trust exactly. But since the US government (of which Ray LaHood is a part of) is the majority share holder of a competitor, GM. Shouldn't his comments about "don't drive your Toyota" at the very least constitute a conflict of interest?

[Jag_Warrior]

Maybe not anti-trust exactly. But since the US government (of which Ray LaHood is a part of) is the majority share holder of a competitor, GM. Shouldn't his comments about "don't drive your Toyota" at the very least constitute a conflict of interest?

I guess one could say that because LaHood is an American, working for the U.S. government, and Toyota is a Japanese company, that there is the potential for a conflict of interest. But no, I don't see any evidence that the U.S.'s position in GM drove LaHood to "pick on" Toyota. Toyota brought this on itself. I don't really have an issue with what he actually said - and I was watching it on Bloomberg.

I would say that the bigger conflict of interest is the fact that both the U.S. government's NHTSA and Toyota had information that Toyota had some safety issues, but because they were rubbing each other's legs pretty hard over the past 8-10 years, NOTHING was done about it.

But sure, let Toyota whine about what LaHood said. Let's see how the car buying public reacts to that "victim's cry"... especially after this:


NAGOYA, JAPAN — The president of Toyota apologized at a hastily arranged news conference Friday night for the quality problems that led to the recall of more than nine million cars worldwide.

“I deeply regret that I caused concern among so many people,” Mr. Toyoda said. “We will do our utmost to regain the trust of our customers.”

Asked whether Toyota had underestimated the situation, Mr. Toyoda said, “I believe what is happening now is a very big problem. We are in a crisis.”

Toyota’s Chief Steps Forward to Apologize (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/06/business/global/06toyota.html)

I actually respect a man who has the guts to do that. Ken Lewis, Rick Wagoner, John Thaine and every other American CEO/SOB, that screwed the pooch over the past 6-8 years, wouldn't have the stones to step to a podium and do what Toyoda did. You could catch those guys with a dead hooker in their closet and they'd probably claim she climbed in there on her own and died.

[chuck34]

I guess one could say that because LaHood is an American, working for the U.S. government, and Toyota is a Japanese company, that there is the potential for a conflict of interest. But no, I don't see any evidence that the U.S.'s position in GM drove LaHood to "pick on" Toyota. Toyota brought this on itself. I don't really have an issue with what he actually said - and I was watching it on Bloomberg.

I would say that the bigger conflict of interest is the fact that both the U.S. government's NHTSA and Toyota had information that Toyota had some safety issues, but because they were rubbing each other's legs pretty hard over the past 8-10 years, NOTHING was done about it.

But sure, let Toyota whine about what LaHood said. Let's see how the car buying public reacts to that "victim's cry"... especially after this:



Toyota’s Chief Steps Forward to Apologize (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/06/business/global/06toyota.html)

I actually respect a man who has the guts to do that. Ken Lewis, Rick Wagoner, John Thaine and every other American CEO/SOB, that screwed the pooch over the past 6-8 years, wouldn't have the stones to step to a podium and do what Toyoda did. You could catch those guys with a dead hooker in their closet and they'd probably claim she climbed in there on her own and died.

I'm not giving Toyota a pass on this. Far from it. But since the US government owns a large stake in GM, a Toyota competitor, and Ray LaHood is a representative of the Government, I can see a case being made for a conflict of interest at the very least. I'm hearing the rates are actually sort of low on "incidents" of throttle sticking, below the recall trigger. Toyota volunteered to do the recall. You'd be surprised how many "issues" car companies deal with day to day without triggering a recall. So if that's true, and a competitor, especially one in a position of power, starts making claims that drive your stock or sales down, that sounds like some sort of conflict of interest or anti-trust type deal.

But I'm not a lawyer so I don't know for sure. And even so I'd bet you can't sue the Transportation Sec. Bottom line LaHood should have STFU.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yep, this is a BIG conflict of interest. I think Toyota has a case to sue LaHood, if that's possible, for anti-trust or some such thing.

Good luck with that...let me know how it turns out...lol

Suing the Gov't? They guys who make the rules will change the rules so they can win. That is the way government usually works when they are in the wrong, and if what Jag says is true, NHTSA has been helping Toyota keep this quiet with the Prius thing while they solved the issue..

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm not giving Toyota a pass on this. Far from it. But since the US government owns a large stake in GM, a Toyota competitor, and Ray LaHood is a representative of the Government, I can see a case being made for a conflict of interest at the very least. I'm hearing the rates are actually sort of low on "incidents" of throttle sticking, below the recall trigger. Toyota volunteered to do the recall. You'd be surprised how many "issues" car companies deal with day to day without triggering a recall. So if that's true, and a competitor, especially one in a position of power, starts making claims that drive your stock or sales down, that sounds like some sort of conflict of interest or anti-trust type deal.

But I'm not a lawyer so I don't know for sure. And even so I'd bet you can't sue the Transportation Sec. Bottom line LaHood should have STFU.

I'm pretty well versed on the number of issues that OEM's and suppliers deal with on a daily basis, Chuck. ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

Ain't no rest for the wicked.
Money don't grow on trees.
I got bills to pay.
I got mouths to feed.
There ain't nothing in this world for free.



ORLANDO, Florida (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) is considering increased incentives and an extended warranty program to combat consumer concerns about a deepening product safety crisis, a source briefed on still-developing plans said on Sunday.

Toyota, reeling from its largest recall in history, is discussing a range of options with its U.S. dealers to support sales, including $1,000 in addition to the current $1,000 in cash incentives to returning Toyota customers, the source told Reuters.


Toyota weighs increased incentives, warranties (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61D1H120100214)

[chuck34]

Ain't no rest for the wicked.
Money don't grow on trees.
I got bills to pay.
I got mouths to feed.
There ain't nothing in this world for free.




Toyota weighs increased incentives, warranties (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61D1H120100214)

I love that song Jag! Sorry OT, but it's a damn good song. :-)

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think Toyota will get through this with not much issue. They didn't get the sterling rep for great product over night, and they wont lose it over night. Millions of Toyota's soldier on and are bullet proof solid cars. The odd one has an issue, but the recalls will fix cars that likely don't need fixing. Most Toyota owners will smugly continue on. The only model that will maybe lose sales is the Prius. People are going to realize this regen braking with the computer is not a perfect science, and I was on a rough road and finding the car accelerating as I was braking, It would be GONE..... And THAT is the problem the Prius is having, as opposed to this phantom gas pedal issue.

[Mark in Oshawa]

As for Ray LaHood, I have heard enough of him to know he should just shut his piehole. As someone who listened a lot to the trucker's news on "Landline Now", I learned a lot about LaHood and I can honestly say he talks before he thinks..

[Langdale Forest]

Never trust any Toyota.

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/09032010/36/toyota-prius-driver-uses-police-car-stop-0.html

[MrJan]

Never trust any Toyota.

So I need to be careful driving home in my car which was made 17 years before this scandal? THanks for the heads up.

[Daniel]

So I need to be careful driving home in my car which was made 17 years before this scandal? THanks for the heads up.
rofl

Langdale logic strikes again :D

[MrJan]

Somehow I made it home safely. However my handbrake has been stuck on a lot recently, I thought it was just some moisture in the cables being frozen but in light of this recent Toyota reliability debacle I may have to rethink that.

[Daniel]

Somehow I made it home safely. However my handbrake has been stuck on a lot recently, I thought it was just some moisture in the cables being frozen but in light of this recent Toyota reliability debacle I may have to rethink that.
Handbrake used to stick on my 504. Stupid Toyota!

[MrJan]

Handbrake used to stick on my 504.

That's cos it's French innit :p :

[Azumanga Davo]

Somehow I made it home safely. However my handbrake has been stuck on a lot recently, I thought it was just some moisture in the cables being frozen but in light of this recent Toyota reliability debacle I may have to rethink that.

Get onto the phone to Mr Toyoda quick!

[Daniel]

That's cos it's French innit :p :
Still Toyota's fault :p

Tis actually a really common thing with 504's though, what I used to do was just hold it on Park if it was just a very small incline or if it was a big incline I'd put the handbrake on and then when I left, I'd have to drive to level ground and hammer it off :D

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The handbrake didn't work once on my Punto. (or maybe I just forgot to put it on :dozey: )

[MrJan]

The handbrake didn't work once on my Punto. (or maybe I just forgot to put it on :dozey: )

Having seen some of your recent exploits (such as cutting yourself on an ice cube or struggling to find the O section of an index) I know which option I'm guessing :p : :D

[Daniel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4PtafRB9c&feature=player_embedded

:rotflmao: NSFW with sound on :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4PtafRB9c&feature=player_embedded

:rotflmao: NSFW with sound on :)

I was howling...he is SO right

[Daniel]

I was howling...he is SO right
Yeah :D I knew you'd like it ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yeah :D I knew you'd like it ;)

I posted it to facebook....it was too good not to share.