Life after Tony George.

[Chaparral66]

So now he has shut down Vision Racing. After 13 years, and a cool $600 million down the cold air intake, after being dumped as CEO of IMS, stepping down as founder and CEO of the IRL, and owner of his own IndyCar team, what is the legacy of one Anton Hullman George in American Open Wheel Racing? What is the future of the Indy Racing League, and does anyone, outside of us diehards, really care?

[Mark in Oshawa]

The sad part is, it is only use diehards left....and THAT is the legacy he is leaving....

[Chaparral66]

I'm inclined to agree. But there has to be more than that. There are lessons to be learned here, if people want to take the time and learn them.

[methanolHuffer]

I'm going to keep looking forward. Many of us will.

It's going to take more than that for things to get back to the high water mark of what, 1992-5?

It's only remarkable in that he kept it falling for so long.

Without his hubris, his entitlements, his self grandizing perceptions that he should be king, the sport will have to stand on its own merit - that's nothing but a good thing. It won't come easy and nothing great ever does come easily.

[Wilf]

I'm going to keep looking forward. Many of us will.

It's going to take more than that for things to get back to the high water mark of what, 1992-5?

It's only remarkable in that he kept it falling for so long.

Without his hubris, his entitlements, his self grandizing perceptions that he should be king, the sport will have to stand on its own merit - that's nothing but a good thing. It won't come easy and nothing great ever does come easily.

I wonder if any of the then CART owners now regret their put up or shut up suggestion?

[Chris R]

I wonder if any of the then CART owners now regret their put up or shut up suggestion?

I kind of doubt it, for two reasons:
1. That would be admitting an error and thus damaging their ego's...

2. I am not sure it mattered, I am not that sure they could have done anything that would have ultimately prevented TG from trying to assume control... The fact that he held on for so long, spent so much etc. shows just how hungry for power and control he was - I do not think he could have be placated by anything other than full capitulation and I cannot see any logical reason why CART would have done that at the time (nor can I see how that would have necessarily improved the situation in hindsight- the guy was just not good at running a racing series...)

This is not to say CART did not have plenty of faults - but sometimes you cannot do anything to make the kid with the best toys play nicely.....


Also, fundamentally, the CART guys were right in their assessment of the relative skills and merits of TG - they were wrong about his determination and willingness to ruin the sport.... again, not that they were the best thing since sliced bread.....

[Jag_Warrior]

There are lessons to be learned here, if people want to take the time and learn them.

Don't put an idiot with a big ego in charge of anything important.

The Romans learned the same thing when they didn't kill Caligula and Nero as soon as they started acting hinky.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I wonder if any of the then CART owners now regret their put up or shut up suggestion?

No...of course not. Why would they hand over everything THEY had built to a man who had no track record other than the family he belonged to? THAT my friend is the whole crux of it. It was the crux of the reason why they stiff armed him in 95 and why they likely know that no matter what they said, nothing short of letting him loose to run their series would have mattered. The only thing I might suggest tho had they done this, it would have been evident to all of us sooner, BUT I think by keeping Indycar ONE series then, he would have been exposed and ejected. Then again...he didn't go until his sisters kicked him in the @ss...so I suppose there is no level of embarassement or abuse he wasn't willing to take to hang onto the controls of the sport.

[the bro]

The ironic thing is some of those team owners are still around, while Tony has hit the road. Who really won the war?

[Wilf]

The ironic thing is some of those team owners are still around, while Tony has hit the road. Who really won the war?

I thought it was obvious; there is no winner, just dead bodies and a lot of walking wounded.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I thought it was obvious; there is no winner, just dead bodies and a lot of walking wounded.

Funny, I said that a few years ago when I was on the CART/CCWS board demanding that the stupidity stop, and no one wanted to see it. ON the IRL board, it was even more myopic. They thought the war was won at that point.

We all lost, and Tony George may have lost his place, and sold his team, but the people who really lost the most are the hardcore fans of the sport....

[Cartomante]

We all lost, and Tony George may have lost his place, and sold his team, but the people who really lost the most are the hardcore fans of the sport....

Yes, you are right. Here is a former longtime, hardcore fan...lost.

[the bro]

"Bernard was introduced as CEO by Jeffrey Belskus, president and CEO of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Corporation."


Perhaps a new start, maybe.

[Jag_Warrior]

We all lost, and Tony George may have lost his place, and sold his team, but the people who really lost the most are the hardcore fans of the sport....

Yep, you are correct. These days, I find Grand Am more interesting to watch than an Indy Car race. Years ago, IndyCar was a close match ONLY with Formula One in my household.

I can't help it that I now feel that way. It's like trying to explain why I like brunettes more than redheads. Just the way it is... :dozey:

When I think about Indy Car now, I think about that scene from Jackie Brown. After Robert De Niro's character, Louis, shot and killed Melanie, just because he thought she was too mouthy (and maybe she was), he's riding with Samuel L. Jackson's character (Ordell), trying to explain his overreaction. At first you think it might work out for Louis. But when they pull over, Ordell shoots Louis in the face. And what Ordell says to the dead Louis is the part that makes me think of Indy Car: "What the #### happened to you, man? S###, your a## used to be beautiful!"

A variety of people and forces could be "Ordell". But there's no doubt in my mind that Indy Car is "Louis".

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes, you are right. Here is a former longtime, hardcore fan...lost.

How many more are like you? I don't watch as many races as I used to and it was my FAVOURITE racing series by FAR in 94....I just keep in touch and stay on the board because I still love Indy and the sport, but unlike most Indy 500 people, I have never drank the kool aid that is being a Tony George supporter. I am of the Robin Miller school of thought that they changed racing history for the worse the day the IRL was formed....

[nigelred5]

Yep, you are correct. These days, I find Grand Am more interesting to watch than an Indy Car race. Years ago, IndyCar was a close match ONLY with Formula One in my household.



That and Formula one was just about the only racing I found myself watching last season.

It's the only major racing series other than NASCAR that races anywhere near me these days that I can watch in person, and the racing is actually damn good. I've actually gotten used to the cars, and there is usually a good mix of drivers to follow and make things interesting. My kids like it because we can walk right through the pits and paddock freely at races and each time they have actually been invited to sit in several different cars. My wife even follows thanks to meeting McDreamy at the track and knowing that it's pretty likely that she would have the opportunity to simply walk right up to him and chat. From a fan's perspective, it reminds me very much of the atmosphere inTrans-Am in the mid 80's with Paul Newman in the paddock. NASCAR was that open, but it's damn near becoming like F1 at events lately.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That and Formula one was just about the only racing I found myself watching last season.

It's the only major racing series other than NASCAR that races anywhere near me these days that I can watch in person, and the racing is actually damn good. I've actually gotten used to the cars, and there is usually a good mix of drivers to follow and make things interesting. My kids like it because we can walk right through the pits and paddock freely at races and each time they have actually been invited to sit in several different cars. My wife even follows thanks to meeting McDreamy at the track and knowing that it's pretty likely that she would have the opportunity to simply walk right up to him and chat. From a fan's perspective, it reminds me very much of the atmosphere inTrans-Am in the mid 80's with Paul Newman in the paddock. NASCAR was that open, but it's damn near becoming like F1 at events lately.

Ya..but the damn DP's are ugly....lol.

It is compelling some races tho. They race each other pretty hard, and we didn't always see that last season in the IRL

[Chris R]

How many more are like you? I don't watch as many races as I used to and it was my FAVOURITE racing series by FAR in 94....I just keep in touch and stay on the board because I still love Indy and the sport, but unlike most Indy 500 people, I have never drank the kool aid that is being a Tony George supporter. I am of the Robin Miller school of thought that they changed racing history for the worse the day the IRL was formed....

well put and my thoughts exactly.....

[Jag_Warrior]

Ya..but the damn DP's are ugly....lol.

I wouldn't put it up against the Lola spyder or coupe in ALMS, but the Lola Grand Am DP wouldn't lose an ugly contest vs. the current Dallara IRL car, IMO.

Beauty is in the eye of the stalker and all that. But as time has passed, I'm finding the DP's (some of them) to be less aesthetically challenged than I used to think. But the main thing is, they tend to put on some darn good racing. I hope to make VIR this year to see them. And this coming from someone who used to be VERY anti-Grand Am.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I wouldn't put it up against the Lola spyder or coupe in ALMS, but the Lola Grand Am DP wouldn't lose an ugly contest vs. the current Dallara IRL car, IMO.

Beauty is in the eye of the stalker and all that. But as time has passed, I'm finding the DP's (some of them) to be less aesthetically challenged than I used to think. But the main thing is, they tend to put on some darn good racing. I hope to make VIR this year to see them. And this coming from someone who used to be VERY anti-Grand Am.

they put on a great show, and if the IRL was able to put on some of the good races I have seen in Grand AM, they might be further along on the road back than they are.

A DP or a Dallara more ugly? Not sure....about six of one, half dozen of another ya know? Put an Audi R10 with them and it will run as fast if not faster than both and is better looking....lol..

[Chaparral66]

I thought it was obvious; there is no winner, just dead bodies and a lot of walking wounded.

I respctfully disagree, Wilf. NASCAR won this war. I've been saying that along with Robin Miller for years. NASCAR was the only one to benefit, having gotten big right before the IRL started racing, and the war just fed fans to NASCAR who tired of the conflict and instability.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I respctfully disagree, Wilf. NASCAR won this war. I've been saying that along with Robin Miller for years. NASCAR was the only one to benefit, having gotten big right before the IRL started racing, and the war just fed fans to NASCAR who tired of the conflict and instability.

yup....there are too many apologists for what has happened in the last 16 years who would try to tell us it was all an accident, but it wasn't.

NASCAR was the winner, and anyone connected with OW and loving Indycar racing was the loser, but it wasn't so innocent. A series of events pushed this sport apart into opposing camps and there was no need for it.

[Wilf]

I respctfully disagree, Wilf. NASCAR won this war. I've been saying that along with Robin Miller for years. NASCAR was the only one to benefit, having gotten big right before the IRL started racing, and the war just fed fans to NASCAR who tired of the conflict and instability.

Point well taken, but my reference was between to two warring factions in American open wheel racing. However, I can recall a discussion in '92 or '93 at Elkhart Lake about the previous week's ratings between the cabs and CART where the open wheel series on broadcast tv had lost out to the cabs on ESPN. The reason I remember the discussion was because we were warned that any further discussion of the subject would have to take place outside of of the media center; "NASCAR is not to be discuss at a CART show." What I'm trying to say is that the tide was turning before TG had his dream, or nightmare.

[Scotty G.]

What I'm trying to say is that the tide was turning before TG had his dream, or nightmare.


Of course it was.

NASCAR would have "won the war" with or without the formation of the IRL. In fact, they had already taken off and left AOW in its dust years before 1996.

The CART/IRL fight is used now as a crutch and an excuse. The fact is, Mauricio Gugelmin, Bruno Junquiera, Tomas Scheckter and Vitor Meira would have elicited the same reaction from the American viewing public, whether Tony ever stomped his foot or not.

NASCAR got the drivers and the racing that the vast majority of America wants to see and Indy Car did not. Been that way for close to 2 decades now.

[Continental Op]

Champ Car World Series/CART -is dead that's his heritage. We will never forget or forgive!

[Chaparral66]

Point well taken, but my reference was between to two warring factions in American open wheel racing. However, I can recall a discussion in '92 or '93 at Elkhart Lake about the previous week's ratings between the cabs and CART where the open wheel series on broadcast tv had lost out to the cabs on ESPN. The reason I remember the discussion was because we were warned that any further discussion of the subject would have to take place outside of of the media center; "NASCAR is not to be discuss at a CART show." What I'm trying to say is that the tide was turning before TG had his dream, or nightmare.

I understood your point very well. I agree niether CART/Champ Car or the IRL won. What I'm saying is that the unintended winner was NASCAR. There's no question that how NASCAR benefitted from the war is a huge part of the story. Sure, NASCAR was getting big before the IRL started, but no question in my mind that the war gave NASCAR the boost it needed to become part of the sporting conscience here in the US. NASCAR has become the synonym for racing in the US, for better or for worse.