Can we stop P platers from killing themselves and their mates?

[Valve Bounce]

How can they be stopped from killing themselves and their mates? Last weekend, a 19 year old P plate holder filled his car with 5 other close friends at 2 am and crashed his car at an estimated 140kph into a tree, killing himself and four of his mates. A subsequent autopsy test showed he had a blood alcohol nearly 4 times the legal limit for a normal driver. However, as a P plater, he should not have drunk any alcohol at all. Young P platers are still being caught this week with high blood alcohol readings and at high speed. This lad was driving a Ford Falcon XR6 which is much too fast for a driver with only a P plater’s experience (in my opinion), and he should not have been carrying that many passengers at all. http://www.theage.com.au/national/how-five-young-lives-were-lost-after-a-party-20100117-med8.html

So what is the solution? Last time this issue was discussed in this forum, some guys actually asked "why should P platers be punished". Should I answer: [i]“by grounding them instead of helping them to meet St Peter?”[i]

I am firmly of the opinion that when any driver is caught with a blood alcohol reading of more than double the legal limit, their car should be confiscated and sold, and the money given directly to hospitals. The same applies to any P plater caught with any blood alcohol reading or speeding more than 20 kph above the limit. In such a case, they cannot claim that they accidentally exceeded the speed limit.

At present, there is some sort of system where “hoons” have their cars confiscated for two or three days for offences like speeding and drink driving. What kind of punishment is that? That’s more like awarding them a badge of merit to brag about.




Open for discussion.

[ShiftingGears]

I really dislike how they're constantly increasing the requirements needed for a full license. Green P-platers and indeed many full license holders don't drive any better than Red P-Platers, and the restrictions for the most part are simply annoying.

[Rollo]

How about compulsorily speed limiting cars to 110km/h? That way, even on a motorway, no-one could speed.
Of course the above idea is incredibly harsh, but is that the reality you want to live in?

Personally I think that Sam Newman's calls for the speed limits to be raised on motorways is an excellent idea. If a lot of deaths are caused by drowsy driving, then how about making travel times shorter by upping the speed you can do across this wide brown land?

[Hondo]

There are all kinds of solutions out there Valve. The question is how many innocent would you like to restrict or punish for the sins of others.

The cure exists and it's an old cure. It's called natural selection and generally leaves the weak and stupid to destroy themselves. Thats just the way it is.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think You Aussies will grin and bear the price of youth driving like idiots, often drunk because you live in a society that to an extent has glorified the macho art of drinking (Canada is much the same) and giving young men fast cars is a rite of passage.

I don't think we will ever really avoid these tragedies. They are part of living in a free society. AS Rollo pointed out, you could limit ALL cars to a set speed, but would anyone like it? I mean, if a car never goes faster than 30 km/h, you will have very low numbers of deaths on the roads but no one will get anywhere.

It is the cost of a free society. The only thing you can do is beat it into the kids heads that driving around half cut is about the stupidist thing you can do.

[Valve Bounce]

There are all kinds of solutions out there Valve. The question is how many innocent would you like to restrict or punish for the sins of others.

The cure exists and it's an old cure. It's called natural selection and generally leaves the weak and stupid to destroy themselves. Thats just the way it is.

I understand what you say. I just cannot get a handle on the pain and suffering of relatives affected, and while I do not wish to punish or restrict the innocent, I want to keep the other guys alive.

If their cars are confiscated and sold, with all proceeds going to hospitals, I can't understand why this is not a good thing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I understand what you say. I just cannot get a handle on the pain and suffering of relatives affected, and while I do not wish to punish or restrict the innocent, I want to keep the other guys alive.

If their cars are confiscated and sold, with all proceeds going to hospitals, I can't understand why this is not a good thing.

they confiscate cars from anyone going 60km/h or over the limit here. Take the car and it means NOTHING. Every other week in the summer there is some moron nailed flying and they take his car away. You think they would learn, but they don't. As Fiero says, it is Darwin's theory of selection.....we just hope to stop them from killing innocent people, but short of giving all the idiots their own roads in the middle of nowhere, the risk is there.

[Valve Bounce]

they confiscate cars from anyone going 60km/h or over the limit here. Take the car and it means NOTHING. Every other week in the summer there is some moron nailed flying and they take his car away. You think they would learn, but they don't. As Fiero says, it is Darwin's theory of selection.....we just hope to stop them from killing innocent people, but short of giving all the idiots their own roads in the middle of nowhere, the risk is there.

I'm just hoping that the loss of a souped up Falcon XR6 or a Subaru WRX will hurt, and the money being given directly to the hospitals will also help.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm just hoping that the loss of a souped up Falcon XR6 or a Subaru WRX will hurt, and the money being given directly to the hospitals will also help.The money to the hospitals, while nice is a drop in the bucket. The loss to these idiots means little because they all believe it cannot happen to them, and they cant be killed. C'mon Valve, you were 20 once, you know what your mates were like. You see it in sport, in cars or wherever. The young guys are reckless and bold and they don't care. THey don't THINK....

[Valve Bounce]

The money to the hospitals, while nice is a drop in the bucket. The loss to these idiots means little because they all believe it cannot happen to them, and they cant be killed. C'mon Valve, you were 20 once, you know what your mates were like. You see it in sport, in cars or wherever. The young guys are reckless and bold and they don't care. THey don't THINK....

Mark! when I was 20, if my car was impounded and confiscated, that would have been the end. I would have been relegated to travelling on trams and buses. I would have been devastated.

The money to the hospitals - well it's better than just crushing the cars and nobody gains at all.

[driveace]

After 47 years of Driving Instructing and also working for the Department of Transport as a Driving Examiner,some of the problem lies in the instruction industry.Too many instructors LET pupils BRAKE ON CORNERS,this as all experienced drivers know is a NO_NO..The golden rule is that you SHOULD ALWAYS come out of a corner FASTER than you go into it.So kill the speed on approach whilst still in a straight line ,and accelerate from the apex out.
The OTHER thing I would do is RESTRICT ALL NEW drivers to a 1 litre car for say 2 years.Too many times I have taught rich kids to drive,and Its not their fault entirely,but they ring their parents from the test centre to say they have passed their test ,and when we arrive home they have a new BMW ,or other high powered car to go out in.
Also restrict them to ONLY 1 Passenger for the first 12 months.I know these restrictions may seem harsh,but 15 miles away in Skipton North Yorkshire 3 girls were killed last year ( in two separate accidents) ,on a BEND and finished up in the canal,and could not get out so drowned.

[ShiftingGears]

Also restrict them to ONLY 1 Passenger for the first 12 months.I know these restrictions may seem harsh,but 15 miles away in Skipton North Yorkshire 3 girls were killed last year ( in two separate accidents) ,on a BEND and finished up in the canal,and could not get out so drowned.

Absolutely not. Tragedies happen, but they should drive more carefully. I am inconvenienced enough as it is from restrictive passenger laws.

[Sonic]

After 47 years of Driving Instructing and also working for the Department of Transport as a Driving Examiner,some of the problem lies in the instruction industry.Too many instructors LET pupils BRAKE ON CORNERS,this as all experienced drivers know is a NO_NO..The golden rule is that you SHOULD ALWAYS come out of a corner FASTER than you go into it.So kill the speed on approach whilst still in a straight line ,and accelerate from the apex out.
The OTHER thing I would do is RESTRICT ALL NEW drivers to a 1 litre car for say 2 years.Too many times I have taught rich kids to drive,and Its not their fault entirely,but they ring their parents from the test centre to say they have passed their test ,and when we arrive home they have a new BMW ,or other high powered car to go out in.
Also restrict them to ONLY 1 Passenger for the first 12 months.I know these restrictions may seem harsh,but 15 miles away in Skipton North Yorkshire 3 girls were killed last year ( in two separate accidents) ,on a BEND and finished up in the canal,and could not get out so drowned.

I'm with you Ace. As you say too few instructors talk at any degree to their clients regarding the physics of driving a car and ignore (or fail to spot) potentially risky activities early on. Sadly some examiners are guilty too; at one of my former test centres we had a national speed limit B road which was had a steep downhill section with a series of switchbacks. I took great care to always prepare my clients by showing them the stretch of road and pointing out the number of skid marks heading straight off the tarmac.
However when one of my clients on a test I was sitting in on did exactly the wrong thing and approached in too high a gear and braked to control his speed all the way to the exit of the corner the examiner made no comment. Thankfully my client was mature enough to understand what he had done wrong as I drove him home and signed up to pass plus.

As for limiting engines. Not sure. Even a 1.0l can achieve 100mph or thereabouts, they can still do plenty of damage.

Persoanally i'd like to see a modular approach to driving, whereby novice drivers earn their automotive independance. Starting with regular L lessons before earning the right to solo drives in the daylight on low speed limit roads, building to night driving, passenger carrying etc as the proved their maturity. Different coloured P plates could be used to designate what each driver is permitted to do solo e.g yellow P = solo in day conditions, no passengers. Thus making it very easy for the police to spot those in breech of the rules.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I'm not too keen on the restricting passengers for new drivers. So if they crash they wont kill all their passengers too, but if I can't give my mates a lift then they will just drive too, meaning I will have someone to race against.

I have been driving for nearly 3 years now, done over 25,000 miles and never had an accident. I have carried a car full of passengers and if anything it has made me drive slower because the car feels so sluggish with the extra weight.

The thing is, when young males get behind a wheel of a car they think they are Lewis Hamilton. It is just they way we are built. The whole macho-showing-off to my mates thing doesn't really appeal to me. I know that girls aren't really impressed by boys when they drive fast. They need to get this message across.

[ShiftingGears]

Different coloured P plates could be used to designate what each driver is permitted to do solo e.g yellow P = solo in day conditions, no passengers. Thus making it very easy for the police to spot those in breech of the rules.

Already happening, and doesn't do anything besides be a pain in the arse to be honest.

[ShiftingGears]

The thing is, when young males get behind a wheel of a car they think they are Lewis Hamilton. It is just they way we are built. The whole macho-showing-off to my mates thing doesn't really appeal to me. I know that girls aren't really impressed by boys when they drive fast. They need to get this message across.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2nvAFOk7x0

This is what the NSW government tried as an anti-speeding ad, despite the fact that there is no speeding in the ad. It is trying to attack the mentality you addressed, which may play a part in many peoples decisions to speed. I don't know how effective that is.


Although to be honest, lots of people speed simply because they find it enjoyable to drive a car at speed.

[Sonic]

No over here ugs.

We don't even have a mandatory P plate. So 99.8% pass the test, throw away the L's and have zero restrictions aside from a 2 year period where they miust not gain more than 6 penalty points (everyone else has 12).

[wedge]

A tragic crash can happen with small cars which is all too common in the UK and I imagine right across the world.

I think there's different things you can look at like better training on driver attitudes (I remember Sir John Whitmore was an advocate) and compulsory skid-pan training (which is a must, IMHO)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

A lot of it is down to a lack of intelligence. I had a mate who has been driving for about 3weeks wanted to go out when it snowed to do some drifting! http://www.overlordforums.com/Smileys/default/facepalm.gif

[Daniel]

The OTHER thing I would do is RESTRICT ALL NEW drivers to a 1 litre car for say 2 years.Too many times I have taught rich kids to drive,and Its not their fault entirely,but they ring their parents from the test centre to say they have passed their test ,and when we arrive home they have a new BMW ,or other high powered car to go out in.

How many times do you see an accident on TV and the car is a 1.1 Saxo or something which has opened itself up like a can of sardines and thrown its occupants all over the road.

People should be taught how to drive like you said in the first bit of your post.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark! when I was 20, if my car was impounded and confiscated, that would have been the end. I would have been relegated to travelling on trams and buses. I would have been devastated.

The money to the hospitals - well it's better than just crushing the cars and nobody gains at all.

Bet you still sped tho didn't you? You would be lying if you said you didn't. WE all do stupid things because we think IT CANT HAPPEN TO ME. If being unafraid of a fiery crash causing death and dismemberment doesn't deter reckless youth from speeding, you think the threat of taking the car will? Intellectually they should be scared, but they just aren't. If they used good judgement, they would be a rare 20 year old. I was a very law abiding, non-rebellious kid...but I still drove very fast. IT is part of our car culture, and it will take a lot of education of the teens when they are becoming car conscious and a lot of good driver training that the teens are NOT getting. THAT will all help, but you wont stop it all.

[Daniel]

Bet you still sped tho didn't you? You would be lying if you said you didn't. WE all do stupid things because we think IT CANT HAPPEN TO ME. If being unafraid of a fiery crash causing death and dismemberment doesn't deter reckless youth from speeding, you think the threat of taking the car will? Intellectually they should be scared, but they just aren't. If they used good judgement, they would be a rare 20 year old. I was a very law abiding, non-rebellious kid...but I still drove very fast. IT is part of our car culture, and it will take a lot of education of the teens when they are becoming car conscious and a lot of good driver training that the teens are NOT getting. THAT will all help, but you wont stop it all.
Speeding isn't the problem though. Dumb driving is.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Speeding isn't the problem though. Dumb driving is.

You are right, but it is a symptom of the stupidity. The law stating you would lose your car if you drive too dumb hasn't stopped people here from doing it. Dumb driving often manifests itself as speeding, but it is a lot of things that all end up with a young, foolish kid wrapping his car around a tree, into another car, or off the road in a ditch, with people dead. Speed just compounds the carnage.

[Daniel]

You are right, but it is a symptom of the stupidity. The law stating you would lose your car if you drive too dumb hasn't stopped people here from doing it. Dumb driving often manifests itself as speeding, but it is a lot of things that all end up with a young, foolish kid wrapping his car around a tree, into another car, or off the road in a ditch, with people dead. Speed just compounds the carnage.
I agree, but the problem in the UK isn't so much speed itself but people overtaking where they shouldn't and people going too fast around corners.

I did a lot of silly things only a few years ago in cars but always in an environment where the risk was minimal to myself.

Some tool killed himself maybe half a mile from here in a residential area "racing" one of his ****head mates through a 30 zone :rolleyes:

I mean wtf? Why the hell would you do that? Good riddance to the weak genes I say. If someone is stupid enough to get in the car with a person like that more than once or twice then they're also stupid too. I've never had a problem getting out of a car when I didn't feel safe.

[Rollo]

I think You Aussies will grin and bear the price of youth driving like idiots...

Aussies whom are slightly a little safer than the OECD averages for road deaths, both on a per vehicle and per kilometer distance travelled. This would indicate that the mentality of Australian drivers is roughly about the same as an average sample for the world.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2009/pdf/rsr_05.pdf

In fact, the blip in Australian statistics comes about because of the Northern Territory, which has worse quality roads on the whole and a unique set of circumstances which I could suggestbut wont... for that reason (Australians should know the answer to this, and it happens to be statistically true).

[Daniel]

Aussies whom are slightly a little safer than the OECD averages for road deaths, both on a per vehicle and per kilometer distance travelled. This would indicate that the mentality of Australian drivers is roughly about the same as an average sample for the world.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2009/pdf/rsr_05.pdf

In fact, the blip in Australian statistics comes about because of the Northern Territory, which has worse quality roads on the whole and a unique set of circumstances which I could suggestbut wont... for that reason (Australians should know the answer to this, and it happens to be statistically true).
Rollo I think you're comparing apples and oranges though. The roads in Perth for instance are miles difference from any of the roads I've seen here in the UK. The roads here are far far more dangerous.

[driveace]

On my first (of 4) holidays to Australia,we were travelling in our hire car somewhere below Canberra going down to Melbourne.we were keeping to the speed limit,which was something like 100K,when we were caught and passed at speed by a red Escort(Australian version).He came past us as if we were stood still.We had a break for lunch,then set off again.Within half an hour ,we were passed again at speed by the same red escort,and then 500 metres later by a grey coloured Holden.I said to my wife "Hell they are all in a hurry today".About a mile down the road,just after a corner,we saw the grey Holden had pulled the red escort,who,syoung driver was spreadeagled across the back of the Escort,by the police officer from the UNMARKED Holden.
No messing about there then!
The big problem now in the UK is that young drivers find it very difficult ,and EXPENSIVE to get insured(examples being just below £1600 to insure a very small car),this may lead to lots of young drivers ,taking to the roads UNINSURED

[Valve Bounce]

Bet you still sped tho didn't you? You would be lying if you said you didn't. WE all do stupid things because we think IT CANT HAPPEN TO ME. If being unafraid of a fiery crash causing death and dismemberment doesn't deter reckless youth from speeding, you think the threat of taking the car will? Intellectually they should be scared, but they just aren't. If they used good judgement, they would be a rare 20 year old. I was a very law abiding, non-rebellious kid...but I still drove very fast. IT is part of our car culture, and it will take a lot of education of the teens when they are becoming car conscious and a lot of good driver training that the teens are NOT getting. THAT will all help, but you wont stop it all.

Having a car in my "younger" days was something different from having a car for today's youngsters. I had my first car when I was 23, and until then, we went to dances at Cloudland (http://www.milesago.com/venues/cloudland.htm ) by tram. They didn't serve alcohol there, last dance was 11.45 and we made sure we walked fast back down to catch the last tram home.

My first car was a Peugeot 403, and I never got juiced up to have an alcohol content of .19 and then filled the car up with friends to race around suburban streets a top speed at 2.00 am. The car was for more important things: to get to uni during the day and then go up to Cloudland on Saturday night to meet chicks.

Speeding for me was never an issue, as I had more important things to do with my car, and I never had an accident at speed.

I guess I presented a somewhat distorted image of myself here with talk of F1 cars, of which I used to read about in magazines.

[Valve Bounce]

I do remember that the owner of a large department store gave his son a Vauxhall Velox convertible for his 21st. The kid loaded 3 of his friends and a couple of crates of beer in it and went flat strap down Coronation Drive - hit the telegraph pole at the end of the straight and killed all 4.

[driveace]

How old are you.I used to work on Vauxhalls and the Velox, Wyvern and Cresta ,were cars of the mid 50,s Have i choped out and fit new rear chassis rail on thousands of those .The front spring hanger used to come up through the floor

[Daniel]

VB must be at least 110 I think :p

[Valve Bounce]

How old are you.I used to work on Vauxhalls and the Velox, Wyvern and Cresta ,were cars of the mid 50,s Have i choped out and fit new rear chassis rail on thousands of those .The front spring hanger used to come up through the floor

The 1950 Velox was quite a small car, not much larger than an A40, and the convertible was the ants pants among the younger set here who could afford one, and hot up the engine. The year this kid wrapped his car around the post was around 1960.

[Drew]

I dunno what they are in Australia but here, you can have a "p" sign stating that you aren't very confident on the road and have just passed. I never see them much, but in my mind it means that they really shouldn't be on the road in the first place and should be given a wide birth.

[GridGirl]

Also restrict them to ONLY 1 Passenger for the first 12 months.I know these restrictions may seem harsh,but 15 miles away in Skipton North Yorkshire 3 girls were killed last year ( in two separate accidents) ,on a BEND and finished up in the canal,and could not get out so drowned.

Granted that canal is right next to the road but you still have to be driving completely and utterly recklessly to end up in there in the first place. Limiting engine size or passengers won't help or have save people driving like that.

[Valve Bounce]

Granted that canal is right next to the road but you still have to be driving completely and utterly recklessly to end up in there in the first place. Limiting engine size or passengers won't help or have save people driving like that.

Maybe the driver was texting.

Regarding limiting engine size, very few cars have engine less than 1000cc. These car easily get up to 70mph and these little cars are as sturdy as an empty beer can.

My brother in law was lamenting the fact that his son was filling his Holden with his mates and cruising around Redclif all night long. The car was a specially chosen model which had some cool looking tail lights, and it had to be white.

I asked him why he didn't buy his son a Grey Volvo 240; that way none of his mates would get in his car, and he wouldn't be seen cruising Redclif in that car at night. His reply: "Too Late!" :(