Query to left-foot brakers.....

[tannat]

My current 2007 Ford Focus is the first car I've owned on which I've used my left foot for braking 100% of the time..

Was shocked when the dealer told me yesterday I was almost metal-to-metal on the fronts brakes, and the rear drum pads also needed replacement. The car has not quite tipped 35,000 miles....


Aside from normal street driving the car has only seen two 30 minute track sessions.

Is this wear rate shocking to anyone besides me?



Inviting any input :D

[Mark]

Why do you do it in the first place?

[Hondo]

If you use left braking for performance like scrubbing off some speed while maintaing RPMs and your spot in the torque band you will wear your brakes faster.

Some left foot brakers get lazy and don't fully remove either foot from the pedal during normal driving, causing too much wear.

Did you look yourself? Service managers sometimes exagerate brake conditions, especially if the old lady is standing around with you.

[Jag_Warrior]

An hour of (hard?) track time, plus the 35K miles on the road - are you an aggressive driver on the street? No, that doesn't sound shocking at all. The pads that wore out were just the stock parts?

[driveace]

I would say 35K on a set of pads is about average for an AUTOMATIC ,as you have NO engine braking as with a manual car.I dought the rear brakes are F**ked too,as they normally would do at least twice the milage of the fronts.
A little story here we did some testing at Donington with James ThOMPSON IN A Sierra Saphire Cosworth in group A trim ,although it was a manual box he continually did left foot braking,to get quick lap times,he did get nearly equall lap times as the cars ,normall driver,BUT when he pulled into the pits the turbo was GLOWING white,as it never was out of USE,not surprizingley he knackered the turbo.We sent him straght back out for a steady lap to let the Turbo COOL,but it was shot!

[Sonic]

Nope. I'd say that's fairly normal mileage regardless of braking style in an auto.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Is it only possible to realistically use left foot braking in an Auto? Touring Car drivers can do it because the gearbox in clutchless right? I've only ever done left foot braking when I don't need to change down.

[Rollo]

What does your logbook have to say on the subject?

My Ford Ka manual suggests that the front brakes AND rotors be replaced as part of the 60,000km service (though I got to nearly 77,000km), and as for the rear drum brakes, I'm still on my first set of shoes at 171,414km

This is a most sensible question:

Why do you do it in the first place?

Why indeed? What sort of Hooray Henry driving are you doing on the road in the first place that warrants to need to do it? Grant that "heel-and-toe" may be useful at the lights but left foot braking is most efective on loose surfaces.

[Sonic]

Is it only possible to realistically use left foot braking in an Auto? Touring Car drivers can do it because the gearbox in clutchless right? I've only ever done left foot braking when I don't need to change down.

Clutchless shifts are possible in most vehicles but as you say in purpose built racing gearbox it is a lot easier. In a road car clutchless up shifts are reasonably easy to achieve and down shifts are possible too but are much harder - but to be frank, why bother? Its not like you will see any positives on public roads.

[tannat]

Well, I do it because it is an automatic, and the left foot was essentially unoccupied all of the time...

I chose to teach myself how to do it.

I can react to anything far quicker braking with my left than with my right, as the left is always unoccupied (i.e. not on the gas pedal as the right) so it is free to respond.

[tannat]

I finally removed the pads-and the wear rate is quite bizarre....


The outer pads on both the left and right are fine-could go much longer.

Inner right is okay, could easily go a bit longer.

Inner left is metal to metal-what is up?

I'm accustomed to seeing equal wear rates on all pads regardless of location.

This is my first front driver-is it a phenomenon somehow related to different front axle lengths? I could a Newtonian rationale that might explain it..

[Alexamateo]

I'm trying to get my head around why you would take a Ford Focus Auto to a track day? Can't be much fun going into corners and not having the luxury of controlling the gears yourself.

I also own a 2007 Ford Focus at the moment, and the front brakes were changed at 33,000 miles if this helps... :)

I'm not sure of Tannat's experience, but for some reason it can be almost impossible to find a manual tranmission on car lots in the US. It seems like if it's even offered at all it has to be special ordered. I just got a new truck this weekend ( I need a pickup for hauling and towing in my work), and I couldn't get a manual transmission because it's not even offered.

[tannat]

I'm trying to get my head around why you would take a Ford Focus Auto to a track day? Can't be much fun going into corners and not having the luxury of controlling the gears yourself.

I also own a 2007 Ford Focus at the moment, and the front brakes were changed at 33,000 miles if this helps... :)

I'd take my wife's minivan to the track if it was necessary...

It's not what you drive, but how you drive it :up:

[Easy Drifter]

I do not left foot brake as I used to switch back and forth from manual to auto all the time. Too easy to forget which you are driving!
However I notice a lot of left foot brakers rest their foot just over the pedal and their brake lights are forever coming on, especially on bumpy roads. You never know if they are really braking or not.
You also get the ones whose brake lights rarely if ever go off. I often wonder about their brake wear.
Those who drive mostly in the country, at least in NA should get far more mileage before a brake job is needed. You just don't use them that much.

[tannat]

My apologies I hadn't realised you were American, I saw the word "Leicester" in your signature and assumed you were from the UK. I did think I hadn't heard of an Focus Auto before and was going to congratulate you on finding one. :p

I've driven a couple of automatics but I've never been able to get on with them. The temptation to change gear quicker than the gearbox allows is too much, plus finding an auto in the UK is usually quite hard in comparison.

Why are most of the cars in the States auto's may I ask? Its something I've always wondered. :)

I dunno
If I had my druthers it would be a manual (my BMW track car is a manual).

Wife cannot drive a stick, thus....

[Mark]

I was sitting in my Ford Fiesta trying to figure out how you could actually left foot brake all the time, without sitting sideways! But if it's an auto... I have driven an Auto Focus before, it was ok I suppose.

I did left foot brake once, but not on purpose, I went for the clutch and hit the brake instead (I was far too tired and bored to be driving really!). I came to a very sudden stop from 50mph in Lane 2 of the A19! By some miracle everyone managed to avoid me and I carried on, proper scary!

[leopard]

You may not believe I did use my left foot for gas on my old civic :D

[driveace]

Brown.Jon Brow,why do you think that you can only left foot brake with an Automatic? You will find that most racing and rally drivers left foot brake,as well as disengaging the ABS,they tell you that they can physically react quicker than the ABS system can.
Think also about the late Pentti,what did he used to teach,and make money from,and in what.Not Automatics

[Sonic]

You may not believe I did use my left foot for gas on my old civic :D

Such a boy thing to do. No woman would ever think "I know I'll try to drive with only my left foot".

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Brown.Jon Brow,why do you think that you can only left foot brake with an Automatic? You will find that most racing and rally drivers left foot brake,as well as disengaging the ABS,they tell you that they can physically react quicker than the ABS system can.
Think also about the late Pentti,what did he used to teach,and make money from,and in what.Not Automatics

But how do you use the clutch pedal when you are left foot braking? Do you start braking with your left then shuffle your feet across?

[Sonic]

But how do you use the clutch pedal when you are left foot braking? Do you start braking with your left then shuffle your feet across?

With a racing box it is possible to "flat shift". You keep your right foot nailed to the metal and then simply stick it in the next gear. Down shifting is also possible clutchless - brake with the left foot and stick it in gear but TBH not worth much and the risk of locking the rears is high. I always used to flat shift on the way up the box and heel/toe on the way down unless I was doing something like copse at silverstone where downshifts weren't needed.

With a standard road box you really can't flat shift so on the way up so you release the right off the gas and move the lever and if you've timed it right it will slide in. Down is very hard to pull off smoothly in a road car but in answer to your question does not involve the clutch at all.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Left foot braking should be left for the track. I am of the opinion being smart behind the wheel will make up for any quicker reaction times by using it in traffic. You will tend to brake HARDER whether you realize it or not.

As for most North American cars being autoboxes, even if they have small motors, it is something that has driven me nuts for years. I think people here just don't as a the public at large love to DRIVE the way maybe people have in Europe, and for years, most of the cars had big motors which if you were not good with the clutch would go through cluthes. In the 50's and 60's just about everything went to the "slushbox" and you have a generation of people who didn't learn to shift gears. Now small cars are part of the landscape, the manual is back, and good thing it is. The ONLY reason for an autobox is in a bigger car with enough power that it doesn't really matter AND if you are communting a lot in stop and go traffic.

AS for towing and heavy uses, most synchromesh manuals don't hold up well. THAT is why most heavy duty diesels in pickups such as the Cummins Dodge or the Powermaxx Fords are auto's only...

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I have just had to have the brake pads and discs replaced on my three-year old Punto (28,000 miles) :\

I could feel something wrong under high-speed braking. It almost felt like the ABS was cutting in which was strange.

The pads were right down to the metal, so it seems I've paid the price for by B-road blasts. How long should they last for?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I have just had to have the brake pads and discs replaced on my three-year old Punto (28,000 miles) :\

I could feel something wrong under high-speed braking. It almost felt like the ABS was cutting in which was strange.

The pads were right down to the metal, so it seems I've paid the price for by B-road blasts. How long should they last for?

I don't think you did too bad actually Jon. 40000km is about what I used to get in my old RX7 when I used to sneak out on to the Mosport and Shannonville Road course.....

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I don't think you did too bad actually Jon. 40000km is about what I used to get in my old RX7 when I used to sneak out on to the Mosport and Shannonville Road course.....

Well I've not been on any race tracks but some of the back roads where I live are Nurburgring-eque :p

I thought they should have lasted for over 50,000 miles.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well I've not been on any race tracks but some of the back roads where I live are Nurburgring-eque :p

I thought they should have lasted for over 50,000 miles.

maybe...if you are not leaning on the brakes. My wife and I got almost 60000 miles out of our brakes on her car (mainly her driving it) but If you are beating on the brakes and playing like you are on a hot lap at the Ring, you can pretty much cut your expectations in half...

[Daniel]

LFB is not just for use on automatics or in competition. Got a laggy turbocharged engine and need to overtake within a short distance? Build the boost up against the brakes and then when the road is clear pull out and let the brakes off and you're on boost and rocketing forward. I used to do this all the time in my 406 and it was surprising the difference it made.

As for left foot braking in the corners. Everyone should try it on a bit of empty road, heck even try it in an empty car park. Think of it like this.... what happens when you're cornering and you yank the handbrake on? Oversteer! That's what. Now think of your car braking, lets say the brake bias on your car is 50:50. If you're braking you can negate some of the braking force on the front axle for a FWD car by putting your foot on the accelerator which can help you get rid of a bit of understeer under braking.

The problem with LFB for most people is that because your left foot typically does the clutch most people have no sensitivity in their left foot. Definitely something best tried out at VERY low speed and somewhere you're not going to hurt yourself or anyone else :) If like me you're not confident enough to rev match and shift without the clutch then don't LFB on a corner where you need to change gear.

As for brakes, why use brakes? In the Fiat I will do everything possible to avoid braking. I spent money to buy the petrol to get up to speed in my slow little car and I'll be ****ed if I'm going to spend money on pads and discs to slow down!!!!! :p Conservation of momentum!

[markabilly]

1. Uneven wear is caused by a problem with the brakes, probably related to an adjustment problem, Generally backing up and stopping actually can help the brakes adjust.
2. Track conditions can eat up brakes and tires, big time, esp. if the pads are not heat resistant

3. A trick I learned from racing is the gentle constant on and off move. It permits the pads to cool. I never come to a complete stop, without releasing the brakes a few times, and once stopped, i immediately let off the brakes and let the car roll six inches or so, at a time. doit sevral times.

The result is I put 130,000 miles on the brakes on an f250 before they needed changing (front only)-with mixed driving of street and highway, but never any drives of over 250 miles....-service guy refused to beleive me until he found the marks left by the factory on the nuts and bolts showing they had never been taken off.
And he did not do anything to the rotors because there was no need.

At a 160k miles, the rears are close to needing changing.

Truck is diesel, the old turbo 7.3 (automatic tranny)

Mind you, I brake pretty hard, and passengers are always hollering stop....but if they thought they were going to live forever, they sure screwed the pooch when they get in a car with me..

spouse put a 120k on a highlander doing the same.

4. After a while, these actions also help the brakes to bed in evenly, such that you get much better feel with the brakes when applying pressure, almost the same as with a fine set of manual only brakes, even though these are power brakes.

5. I usually use my left foot for braking, but early on, i had to be careful that i was not riding the brakes...or not lifting the throttle
Just my experience, YMMV

[Daniel]

1. Uneven wear is caused by a problem with the brakes, probably related to an adjustment problem, Generally backing up and stopping actually can help the brakes adjust.
2. Track conditions can eat up brakes and tires, big time, esp. if the pads are not heat resistant

3. A trick I learned from racing is the gentle constant on and off move. It permits the pads to cool. I never come to a complete stop, without releasing the brakes a few times, and once stopped, i immediately let off the brakes and let the car roll six inches or so, at a time. doit sevral times.

The result is I put 130,000 miles on the brakes on an f250 before they needed changing (front only)-with mixed driving of street and highway, but never any drives of over 250 miles....-service guy refused to beleive me until he found the marks left by the factory on the nuts and bolts showing they had never been taken off.
And he did not do anything to the rotors because there was no need.

At a 160k miles, the rears are close to needing changing.

Truck is diesel, the old turbo 7.3 (automatic tranny)

Mind you, I brake pretty hard, and passengers are always hollering stop....but if they thought they were going to live forever, they sure screwed the pooch when they get in a car with me..

spouse put a 120k on a highlander doing the same.

4. After a while, these actions also help the brakes to bed in evenly, such that you get much better feel with the brakes when applying pressure, almost the same as with a fine set of manual only brakes, even though these are power brakes.

5. I usually use my left foot for braking, but early on, i had to be careful that i was not riding the brakes...or not lifting the throttle
Just my experience, YMMV
I wonder how much of the long life of your brakes is down to the fact that roads in the US are probably not as tight and twisty as the ones here in the UK? In the UK if you're going to drive quickly you're going to go through pads.

[Mark]

Depends what roads you are on! I expect my brake pads to last a good while as I do a lot of miles but the vast majority are on motorways, where I hardly ever need to brake.

[Daniel]

I expect mine to last a good while too. I do sod all braking. In the Lake district you were braking for every bleeding corner :p J4mie thinks you brake too much too :p

[Mark]

I expect mine to last a good while too. I do sod all braking. In the Lake district you were braking for every bleeding corner :p J4mie thinks you brake too much too :p

That's because I was trying to outrun you :p
Normally on twisty roads (well, the one twisty road I have on the way to work). I try and make it so that I never have to brake into corners. Saves a massive amount of fuel too!

[Daniel]

Outrun me? :p how much horsepower and torque did you have over me? How much better does your car handle? :p I wasn't even trying ;)

[Mark]

Outrun me? :p how much horsepower and torque did you have over me?

I have no idea!
I have 90bhp and 200 torques.
But a weight without fuel / passengers etc of 1,555kg.

[Daniel]

Really? Caroline's car weighs just under 1400 kg's and that's a big car with 4wd. The 500 weighs 865. Fatty Fester if that's true :mark:

[Mark]

Really? Caroline's car weighs just under 1400 kg's and that's a big car with 4wd. The 500 weighs 865. Fatty Fester if that's true :mark:

Actually that's Gross Vehicle Mass, I'm not entirely sure what that refers to tbh.
Edit: I think that's the maximum allowable mass before you void your warranty, not sure what the real weight is.

[Mark]

I think it's actually more like 1,164kg.

[Daniel]

Actually that's Gross Vehicle Mass, I'm not entirely sure what that refers to tbh.
Edit: I think that's the maximum allowable mass before you void your warranty, not sure what the real weight is.
I suspected as much.

The 500 only has 69 horsies and 102nm of torque :) Your Fiesta could go a LOT faster I reckon.

[Mark]

I suspected as much.

The 500 only has 69 horsies and 102nm of torque :) Your Fiesta could go a LOT faster I reckon.

When you look at it in terms of bhp per tonne it's not so clear.
Fiesta = 77.25
500 = 79.76

[Daniel]

Yes but torque is everything :p Like I said you were not pushing enough in the corners. Just from sitting behind you for a while I can see that your car handles a lot better than mine. Maximum attack! :p

[Mark]

Yes but torque is everything :p Like I said you were not pushing enough in the corners. Just from sitting behind you for a while I can see that your car handles a lot better than mine. Maximum attack! :p

That's fine when you know the road is closed. But if you live by "drive at a speed where you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear", it mostly dictates maximum speed on the straights and slow through the corners.