Danica says....

[Scotty G.]

"I don’t love some of the things we’re doing in IndyCar. I don’t love all the tracks. We’re racing on a lot more road courses and there’s not as much passing."


My respect for her has actually gone up a touch, with this statement.

You would have thought a "USAC" guy or gal said this. Maybe the powers that be (whoever that is) in Indy Car should take a little closer look at their current vision of the sport. Because if someone who grew up on road courses and went to Europe for road racing, thinks Indy Car Racing has gotten too "non-oval" for her liking, then what does the rest of AOW (most of whom are oval fans FIRST) think?

Indy Car Racing should be about OVAL racing with road racing only making up a minority % of its events. Yes, I know some of you like the "diversity of tracks" of the current brand of Indy Car. That's swell. Too bad the American race fan does not seem to feel the same way.

And street racing should be banished for good. It has no place in ANY form of racing; let alone the one that's marquis event is the Indianapolis 500. And pretty soon (by 2011), street racing will make up more of the Indy Car schedule then ovals. That is just flat wrong. Even DP would agree with me. ;)

For once, Danica Patrick is actually speaking for most of AOW and not just herself. Maybe it took her leaving for NASCAR to be more in touch with American race fans. :D

[Mark in Oshawa]

She isn't speaking for all the drivers. She is speaking for herself because she sucked at road racing compared to how well she runs ovals. I saw her in Toronto driving an Atlantic for Rahal and she wasn't competitive. I couldn't understand what Bobby was doing putting her in an IRL car.

Now if you are going to argue road and street races are a bad marketing idea, let me also remind you if the ovals were making big ratings, and getting all the crowds, they would still BE on them. The IRL was an all oval series for 7 YEARS. I think they are not on as many for a reason, and it is called results.

AS for the car not being racy enough on the road/street tracks, that is partially a result of the rules. No one can innovate or try new setups to make one's car work better than the next guy.

I am sick and tired of this fiction tho that the IRL is going down the toilet because of road and street circuits. They drove the CART boys off all the ovals in 5 quick years and ran ovals CART wouldn't touch and it didn't make them any more popular than they are now. Indy doesn't even sell out now.....so it is pure fiction that ovals are what is needed. What is needed is a good series with good competition, and a variety of cars, engines and personalities. Then it wont matter where they race.

[harvick#1]

shes tired of road courses cause she can't pass others on them, oh wait, she cant pass others on ovals :p :

The problem is that there are alot of great road courses out there but the IRL doesn't use them. Road America would be a great track for them, along with Miller Motorsports Park, Mazda Speedway at Laguna Seca. but instead they go to Infineon Raceway (which is a demo derby track), Mid-Ohio, which is too small of a track for indy cars.





And street racing should be banished for good. It has no place in ANY form of racing



:confused: banished why?????? Street Racing events bring another element to racing. some of the greatest racing events in the world run on street tracks: Long Beach GP, Monaco GP, and 24 Hours of Lemans.

[Chamoo]

Danica obviously knows that she butters her bread on ovals as she is a stronger driver on ovals. I would think if you look at her average finish on ovals compared to road courses, you would see that her oval results are stronger.

[Mark in Oshawa]

shes tired of road courses cause she can't pass others on them, oh wait, she cant pass others on ovals :p :

The problem is that there are alot of great road courses out there but the IRL doesn't use them. Road America would be a great track for them, along with Miller Motorsports Park, Mazda Speedway at Laguna Seca. but instead they go to Infineon Raceway (which is a demo derby track), Mid-Ohio, which is too small of a track for indy cars.


:confused: banished why?????? Street Racing events bring another element to racing. some of the greatest racing events in the world run on street tracks: Long Beach GP, Monaco GP, and 24 Hours of Lemans.

I would love to see more short ovals, but the IRL insists on running Texas twice a year, Kansas, Chicagoland and Kentucky.I don't like those ovals for NASCAR really, and I don't like them for the IRL. Give me the Milwaukee Mile, Phoenix and New Hampshire and give the teams a rules package that allows them to race. Barnhart has put them in a box that makes everyone so equal they cant pass even at Indy....

It aint the ovals pro or for...it's the car

[Scotty G.]

1. She isn't speaking for all the drivers.

2. AS for the car not being racy enough on the road/street tracks, that is partially a result of the rules.


1. I think for once, she is speaking for most Americans.

2. Most of these tracks (like Mid-Ohio, Long Beach, Toronto, Sonoma and likely Barber) are WAY too narrow/small for the current Indy Car. It wouldn't matter if you were racing a Dallara, DP1, March, Lola, Panoz or a roadster, these tracks would SUCK.

Put these cars (or any race car) on a proper race course (either oval or natural terrain road course) and you will see a proper race. Put em' at a place like Long Beach or Mid Ohio, and you will see a parade.

[NickFalzone]

I don't know if it's accurate to say that the typical tv-viewer of the IRL prefers ovals over road circuits. Look at the ratings of the non-Indy oval events compared to the street/road circuits. Oddly enough, most of the road/streets got the best ratings last year, and some of the ovals got the worst (Kentucky, etc.). Some got decent ratings, I think Texas got a solid # for VS. CART did pretty well with a mix of all 3. Personally I prefer ovals, but only when they're racy. I think if IRL has a very racy oval package and has half the season on ovals, they would be in good shape. But having ovals on only say 1/3 of the schedule would be weak imo.

[Scotty G.]

The problem is that there are alot of great road courses out there but the IRL doesn't use them.

Why don't they use them?

Probably the same reason CART and then Champ Car didn't (or the same reason they preferred going to street courses instead).

Its tougher to draw REAL race fans to REAL race tracks. You can get party goers and gawkers to go to Toronto and Long Beach (along with some real race fans too). Those same "party goers" aren't likely going to go to Miller Motorsports Park or Elkhart Lake.

[Mark in Oshawa]

1. I think for once, she is speaking for most Americans.

2. Most of these tracks (like Mid-Ohio, Long Beach, Toronto, Sonoma and likely Barber) are WAY too narrow/small for the current Indy Car. It wouldn't matter if you were racing a Dallara, DP1, March, Lola, Panoz or a roadster, these tracks would SUCK.

Put these cars (or any race car) on a proper race course (either oval or natural terrain road course) and you will see a proper race. Put em' at a place like Long Beach or Mid Ohio, and you will see a parade.

Scott, she is speaking for HERSELF. And you....THAT's it...

If they were so narrow for the IRL, how come the bigger CART car has raced on those tracks?

On a proper road course? One with 4 left turns. Just admit you hate road courses and move on.....

Road America would be super, but with this rules package, there is no guarntee the racing would be any better, and it is a GREAT layout. Take them off the streets of Toronto and maybe they do put on a better show at Mosport, but I bet the crowd wouldn't be what it is downtown either.

The IRL was ALL OVALS FOR SEVEN YEARS and they were going broke...just Tony had a big piggy bank to cover the losses. IT DOESN'T WORK....

[harvick#1]

I would love to see more short ovals, but the IRL insists on running Texas twice a year, Kansas, Chicagoland and Kentucky.I don't like those ovals for NASCAR really, and I don't like them for the IRL. Give me the Milwaukee Mile, Phoenix and New Hampshire and give the teams a rules package that allows them to race. Barnhart has put them in a box that makes everyone so equal they cant pass even at Indy....

It aint the ovals pro or for...it's the car

Milwaukee was always a great circuit, the only short track though that doesn't belong on the IRL calendar is Richmond, was there even one pass for any position on track last year, that was without on of the worst races.

I just don't believe we will see much passing until the car loses downforce and guys are forced to lift and get on the brakes just a little, going flatout on ovals and the passing is near impossible

[TURN3]

Precisely, she is speaking for herself because she cannot compete with talented racers, which is required to be good at road/street courses. There is very very little talent required in today's IndyCar on an oval.

Say what you want about types of tracks, it is all personal opinion. What made Amerian open wheel racing great was it's diversity between road/street/short ovals/superspeedways. The current formula does indeed need to overhaul the tracks...ovals included. None of this has anything to do with her comments. Those are just wishful thinking to prolong an imminent demise to her career.

By the way, as a Rick Mears fan growing up, he was arguably the best EVER on oval but couldn't keep up on a road course after his accident. I'd say he's a hall of famer so you don't have to be great Danica, just somewhat competitive and you're not.

[Chamoo]

For someone to say Toronto wasn't exciting last year must be a little nuts. The Honda Indy Toronto had more passes then 75% of the ovals did last year. Watching the cars come down Lakeshore Blvd. and hit the breaks hard into Turn 3 and all the over taking that occured there was marvelous.

[speeddurango]

These are 2 different types of racing. Just watch stock cars if you don't like it. AOWR has been on road course long enough and the badly manipulated, so called vision of TG was nothing but a foiled business plan which already manifested a striking point whereby one can clearly see that AOWR should go road course way than an all oval stock car way.

I am also surprised at what Danica said because the first time her performance grabbed my attention came at 2 consecutive front row start at 2 road courses; although it was clearly shown that in the race trim she just was not competent. Still I feel if there is any proof that she possesses certain driving ability, one can exemplify few occasional strong races of hers on road/street courses, not the oval races. However, she now came to deny so herself.

[Jag_Warrior]

1. I think for once, she is speaking for most Americans.

I have some disturbing and possibly shocking news for you, amigo: most Americans don't follow racing and couldn't care less what types of courses are run here, or anywhere else in the world. If you don't like road racing or can't understand road racing, a few decades ago, an amazing device (http://powerhousenews.com/Tony/images/Universal_TV_Remote.jpg) was invented.

As for Danica's opinion on racing (or most anything not related to t-shirt sales), I'll care about what she has to say about racing about the same time I'll care about what Anna Kournikova has to say about tennis.

[NickFalzone]

As for Danica's opinion on racing (or most anything not related to t-shirt sales), I'll care about what she has to say about racing about the same time I'll care about what Anna Kournikova has to say about tennis.

It is interesting about Danica's merchandise sales. I thought it was kind of overly hyped up, but walking around the sales area at the Glen this year, her booth was packed with long lines of people buying stuff. Most of the other booths had a couple people here and there. The Dario and Dixon booth had crickets chirping. I'm not sure if it's that the fans are just not that informed or if they genuinely like her, but she does dominate the IRL's merchandise sales.

[Scotty G.]

-I have some disturbing and possibly shocking news for you, amigo: most Americans don't follow racing and couldn't care less what types of courses are run here, or anywhere else in the world.

-As for Danica's opinion on racing (or most anything not related to t-shirt --sales), I'll care about what she has to say about racing about the same time I'll care about what Anna Kournikova has to say about tennis.



Good point. Most American race fans, are what we are talking about. And most American race fans are oval fans. And that will never change (just like soccer will never overtake football either). Its probably a good reason why Indy Cars aren't resonating with anyone, except a few diehards here and there. They have a product that doesn't appeal to what most American race fans like.

And you better care what Danica has to say. She (like it or not) is about the only person that can get any attention. And the fact that she has 1 foot out the door (and she is giving you a major reason WHY in this quote) should be troubling for anyone who cares about the future of the sport.

Just who does Indy Car appeal to in the future, if even the American road racers want out ASAP? Who? The American oval trackers and their fans left decades ago. Who is left?

[garyshell]

Most American race fans, are what we are talking about.

No. "Most american race fans" are what you THINK you are talking about.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Good point. Most American race fans, are what we are talking about. And most American race fans are oval fans. And that will never change (just like soccer will never overtake football either). Its probably a good reason why Indy Cars aren't resonating with anyone, except a few diehards here and there. They have a product that doesn't appeal to what most American race fans like.

And you better care what Danica has to say. She (like it or not) is about the only person that can get any attention. And the fact that she has 1 foot out the door (and she is giving you a major reason WHY in this quote) should be troubling for anyone who cares about the future of the sport.

Just who does Indy Car appeal to in the future, if even the American road racers want out ASAP? Who? The American oval trackers and their fans left decades ago. Who is left?


Scott, you are missing the point. The IRL was a shadow of where CART was in the early 90's by 1999. The only thing that saved them in the short term was the defection of Penske, and later Ganassi and Team Kool Green. Where Roger goes, goes the only crediblity. IN THAT time, they were on nothing but ovals. IN the two to three years after, before CART went bust, they were on nothing but ovals. IN that time, they lost most of the TV support they had, and support for the series was dropping around the same rate as CCWS did. This was an all oval serie save one run in Mid Ohio until 3 years ago. They lost most of their TV, and were losing support to NASCAR.

American race fans who love ovals are now watching Sprint Cup, and it has NOTHING to do with the move to road courses and street courses. The fans were GONE by the time the IRL started going to road racing venues in a big way.

As for Danica, she speaks for her self. I will tell you guys like Dario Franchitti and Helio were not asking for no road courses. I can also tell you that the only American drivers left are not enough to carry this series forward, so I will buy a bit of that argument, but this is capitalism, not socialism where there is a quota for American drivers.

What you guys who love this all oval, All American OW series have failed to grasp is that was Tony George's original formula, and he had it in the ashcan by 2002. BEEN there..done that.

IT didn't work. We need ovals in this series, but I don't buy Danica's rationale for the simple reason she sucks on road courses compared to her oval prowess. She can be someone to deal with on an oval, and has run up near the front a lot, so of cours e she doesn't want to do road courses. If it was the other way around, she would dump everything but the Indy 500. Never ask a driver to be honest on the series direction unless they have proven they can drive everywhere, because drivers are self serving in the extreme...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Oh and one more thing. If Danica left, explain to me where their TV ratings would be? I can tell you, about where they are now. The ratings on VS are a test pattern....and the Indy 500 will have the same ratings roughly it has for a while...that is a shadow of where they were in the early 90's when Tony set out to save the 500....

[harvick#1]

And you better care what Danica has to say. She (like it or not) is about the only person that can get any attention. And the fact that she has 1 foot out the door (and she is giving you a major reason WHY in this quote) should be troubling for anyone who cares about the future of the sport.

Just who does Indy Car appeal to in the future, if even the American road racers want out ASAP? Who? The American oval trackers and their fans left decades ago. Who is left?

i dunno

Indycar racing survived without her before, I'm sure they will survive without her if she leaves. It will also be a breath of fresh air when she does, so Dr. Punch can stop gaulking over her all race long, and not hearing that "Danica update" every 30 seconds.

sure fans will leave but maybe Simona will be the next hit for the IRL and doesn't have to strip to a bikini to try and get attention, why do you think abunch of the male fans like her, cause she is an half-decent person in a bikini that drives a race car.

I for one am not a fan of hers but a fan of Sarah who pulls all her heart and support into the IRL.

[Mark in Oshawa]

i dunno

Indycar racing survived without her before, I'm sure they will survive without her if she leaves. It will also be a breath of fresh air when she does, so Dr. Punch can stop gaulking over her all race long, and not hearing that "Danica update" every 30 seconds.

sure fans will leave but maybe Simona will be the next hit for the IRL and doesn't have to strip to a bikini to try and get attention, why do you think abunch of the male fans like her, cause she is an half-decent person in a bikini that drives a race car.

I for one am not a fan of hers but a fan of Sarah who pulls all her heart and support into the IRL.

Harv, before Danica there was Sarah. After Danica there will be Sarah. I think this sport has done that woman a severe injustice in the amount of attention that Danica got for no other reason she looked better in a bathing suit.

I think the Danica effect is overrated....if she met THAT much to the state of the IRL, it would be reflected in the TV support this series gets.

[harvick#1]

yes, that is too true, I for one can't wait for "The Brand" to finally leave.

she has been a slow disease for the sport and got most of the fans brainwashed.

the series will survive. Danica fans will keep trying to convince us normal race fans that the IRL will die because 90% of fans are Danicas fans. but that will not be the case, the one race I went too in 2008 was a blast. I would like to go again some day but I've got to plan the Petit trip again because that was much much better for the price compared to an Oval event were your only limited to a seat and nothing else.

[NickFalzone]

i dunno

Indycar racing survived without her before, I'm sure they will survive without her if she leaves. It will also be a breath of fresh air when she does, so Dr. Punch can stop gaulking over her all race long, and not hearing that "Danica update" every 30 seconds.

sure fans will leave but maybe Simona will be the next hit for the IRL and doesn't have to strip to a bikini to try and get attention, why do you think abunch of the male fans like her, cause she is an half-decent person in a bikini that drives a race car.

I for one am not a fan of hers but a fan of Sarah who pulls all her heart and support into the IRL.

Not sure what you mean by that. Dr. Jerry Punch is working on his doctorate in Danica-ology and NASCAR fans will be his students starting this Feb.

[Jag_Warrior]

Good point. Most American race fans, are what we are talking about. And most American race fans are oval fans. And that will never change (just like soccer will never overtake football either). Its probably a good reason why Indy Cars aren't resonating with anyone, except a few diehards here and there. They have a product that doesn't appeal to what most American race fans like.

And yet, when CART was at its height (with its road racing) the ratings topped most any non-Indy race that's been run in the years since. As a matter of fact, Long Beach used to get within a whisper of the ratings that the Indy 500 gets now. Any explanation for that? And further, when NASCAR runs road races, it also get higher ratings than the IRL gets with its oval races... pretty much on par with Indy's current ratings. Can ya 'splain that to me? :confused:


And you better care what Danica has to say. She (like it or not) is about the only person that can get any attention. And the fact that she has 1 foot out the door (and she is giving you a major reason WHY in this quote) should be troubling for anyone who cares about the future of the sport.

No, I don't need to care one iota about what Danica says or thinks. I primarily watch Formula One now - it used to be about 50/50. And Danica couldn't be much more than a fluffer girl in F1... if that. The destruction of this sport started when Danica was still playing with Barbies on her go-kart. And to be honest, the fact that she's the "most popular driver" just says what a sad state the sport is in. The best thing would be for Danica to take her single lifetime victory and leave. The sport should not be, cannot be built on a gimmick. And let's be very honest, that is ALL that Danica is. This sport used to attract the best of the best from around the world... former World Driving Champions and the like. Now it's primarily known for a girl whose known more for taking her clothes off than how well she can race. She's not worth one of Emerson Fittipaldi's toenail clippings when it comes to driving talent. Alex Zanardi has won more races than Danica ever has, all since losing his legs.


Just who does Indy Car appeal to in the future, if even the American road racers want out ASAP? Who? The American oval trackers and their fans left decades ago. Who is left?

I've got nothing against oval racing. I watch all forms of racing, from drag racing to rally racing. But I also don't get caught up in what appeals to the lowest common denominator. If I like it, I watch it. I have never seen an episode of American Idol. And yet, I don't feel that I'm any worse off because of that. There is a segment of the population that isn't stuck on the idea that without rubbin' you ain't racin'. And I believe there are still enough of them (us) to support a first rate racing series. But so far, the IRL hasn't presented us with that, so...

You also seem to be forgetting that through its first iteration, the IRL was an all ovals series. And yet, it lost money (and ratings) during that time too.

[Easy Drifter]

For those that say an all or mostly oval series is the way to go I say one word--- Milwaukee.
A huge history of oval racing and packed stands.
Now it is gone after the crowd left.
The reason. Uninspiring cars and mostly uninspiring racing.
Once you lose your fan support it is much harder to bring it back.

Mosport is still suffering from the reputation it got in the 70's as a drunken party. In those days it was so bad the police would not even enter the ppty.
Totally different now but the rep lingers.
At the ALMS race, with a pretty big crowd, two female Mounties in full dress uniforms came up to 2 and mingled with the crowd. Some joking but everything was cool. In the 70's they probably would have been mobbed and stripped.
In those days the team members did not stray from the paddock except to the outside of 9 where the general public did not go in any numbers.

[DanicaFan]

I dont even know why there is a thread on this. This is old news. Danica has always stated that she prefers ovals over road courses and she feel it provides for better racing. I couldnt agree more. She has personally told me this as well ever since Ive known her.

Remember the IRL was founded on ovals so it should still be primarily ovals as far as Im concerned.

And Danica is an excellent driver and continues to excel more and more every year. She will win again and very soon. I have no doubts she will have an Indy 500 win under her belt before she retires as well. :)

[garyshell]

Looking better in a bathing suit had nothing to do with it. (We're not even sure that's true since we haven't seen Sarah in one.) Danica understood marketing. And practiced it well. Something that most drivers don't understand or practice. The bathing suits were only part of the marketing strategy.


I think that's just a bit unfair to Sarah. Sarah understood the traditional autoracing marketing model. Dancia took the advice of her handlers to move outside of that. It is seems from Sarah's efforts that she is doing a lot of this herself.

The bathing suits were part of a marketing strategy, not the marketing strategy.

Gary

[TURN3]

I dont even know why there is a thread on this. This is old news. Danica has always stated that she prefers ovals over road courses and she feel it provides for better racing. I couldnt agree more. She has personally told me this as well ever since Ive known her.

Remember the IRL was founded on ovals so it should still be primarily ovals as far as Im concerned.

And Danica is an excellent driver and continues to excel more and more every year. She will win again and very soon. I have no doubts she will have an Indy 500 win under her belt before she retires as well. :)

FYI, there is a thread on this because Danica admitted she sucks in a very indirect way. Anything Danica says is news, right? Anytime Danica qualifies 8th on an oval or 18th (of 20) on a road course it is news...that I might ad you report with vivid clarity to shine her extraordinary talents. So, there is a thread on it because those of us that see reality enjoy throwing her under the bus because she is a cancer to IndyCar as referenced earlier.

IRL was founded on oval racing and it successfully ruined the entire sport. Open wheel racing was successful and one point because it required the most diversity in the world to be a champion. This is not NASCAR light, which Danica will fail at miserably, this is INDYCAR where all through the decades has been a product of its own. With your vast knowledge of the sport, I'd think you might know a little something about its history, right?

[harvick#1]

I think that's just a bit unfair to Sarah. Sarah understood the traditional autoracing marketing model. Dancia took the advice of her handlers to move outside of that. It is seems from Sarah's efforts that she is doing a lot of this herself.

The bathing suits were part of a marketing strategy, not the marketing strategy.

Gary

the other thing that really give me the full support for Sarah is she doesn't play the sex card. she goes out there and proves to everyone why she belongs without bitching. I bet there is not one driver in the paddock of the IRL that says Sarah doesn't belong, but on the other hand, there wont be a same result when mentioned with Danica.

Jag hit the question pretty good as he usually does and I agree with him 100%.

this is just one person crying that the IRL runs too many road courses and the fact that she can't be competitive on them, yet this is the same Danica that said she'll never go to Nascar unless they shorten the calendar :confused:

[Oli_M]

I think that's just a bit unfair to Sarah. Sarah understood the traditional autoracing marketing model. Dancia took the advice of her handlers to move outside of that. It is seems from Sarah's efforts that she is doing a lot of this herself.

The bathing suits were part of a marketing strategy, not the marketing strategy.

Gary

I think you've got to be fair to Sarah here..... She's currently got a car fully sponsored for 9 races, plus a second car for 4 races, that's basically thirteen events fully sponsored, almost a full season if she chose to just run 1 car. Look at all the other 'big name' teams without fully sponsored cars. Only Penske, Ganassi and half the Andretti cars have secured the sponsor money they need.

So clearly she's also doing something right.

[garyshell]

Going to nit pick me, huh? And just because I phrased it a little wrong. OK, my bad, change "the" to "her". :p

No, not that. It just seemed like the implication was that Sarah didn't understand marketing. And I think, if anything, Sarah has a better understanding of marketing than Danica does. She understood that she is marketing herself as a racer, not as a celebrity. One is a long term strategy, the other leads to the "flash in the pan" syndrome.

My prediction is in ten years time Sarah will still be in the racing game as an owner/manager. Danica won't.

Gary

[garyshell]

Based on income verses outgo, I'd say DP will be far ahead now and in 10 years. It all depends on what your objectives are. In the grand scale of things she's probably somewhat of a lesser driver than SF. However Danica has a well funded, full season ride with a top team and has had for a while while SF was out of racing for a bit because of lack of funds. So you tell me who's ahead.


And what did Sarah do at that point? She grabbed the bull by the... uh... horns and started her own team so SHE was in charge of procuring that funding. Sure Danica is better funded, but what did she do to accomplish that? I don't think she was pounding the pavement or putting together the business plan/marketing proposal like Sarah has had to do.

Right now, without question Danica is in the better spot. However in the long term, I honestly think Sarah is further ahead at having a career in racing ten years from now. Danica, on the other hand has done nothing that I can see to position herself for what happens when she hangs up the gloves other.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't think anyone will be holding tag days for Danica. I think she has seized upon the image she could create, and THAT is the frenzy that got her in the good rides. She understands marketing. I give her that. What I always objected to was her attitude that she wanted to be one of the "Guys" on the track but then she was using the sex angle and clearly using her marketing and image to put herself out there as the "lone" name. I guess I am old schoool, I am all for women in racing, but I want them to not ask for special treatment or show they are the "woman" when it suits their purposes. Her slapping a competitor in the ambulance after a crash was something no male driver would get away with...yet she did. The stomping down pit lane at Indy to go after whomever she could get at would have meant fines if she was Marco Andretti.

Sarah gets it. She knows that her sex means nothing. Results count, and when she couldn't get the ride she needed to be competitive, she is out and building a team to take her there. She has earned everything she has, and not sold her looks, or an image to do it. She is old school, and I love her for trying and she will be another Dale Coyne. Just getting a little more every year. She wont be as rich as Danica, owning a team is a great way to be broke, but she will have her dignity....

[SarahFan]

who cares......danica is so 2006

[harvick#1]

:laugh: :up:

[Scotty G.]

IRL was founded on oval racing and it successfully ruined the entire sport. Open wheel racing was successful and one point because it required the most diversity in the world to be a champion.


Uhh, the sport was already on its way to ruin, LONG before the IRL was founded. Some of you need to quit listening to guys like Kirby and Miller.

The budgets were out of control. American race fans were leaving by the year. American drivers were becoming less of a factor. Ovals were being phased out.

Same problems we face today with most of the same characters running the show. What a shock.

People want to talk about the 1995 ratings and attendance. You ever think more people tuned into races in 1995, because some (mostly the CART fanatics) knew what was coming in 1996? Most knew that 1995 was the last hurrah for CART and Indy Cars as they knew it.

And there is the "diversity" blast again. Or to say it another way, "We don't know what the hell we want to be and want to confuse the American consumer, so lets do a little bit of this and little bit of that and hope to survive for another year".

You know when Open Wheel Racing was at its most successful? When American kids from BOTH disciplines aspired to race Indy Cars. When the BEST American talent became Indy Car drivers. And that was a long time before 1995.

[SarahFan]

People want to talk about the 1995 ratings and attendance. You ever think more people tuned into races in 1995, because some (mostly the CART fanatics) knew what was coming in 1996? Most knew that 1995 was the last hurrah for CART and Indy Cars as they knew it.

.

what are you smoking?

[TURN3]

Uhh, the sport was already on its way to ruin, LONG before the IRL was founded. Some of you need to quit listening to guys like Kirby and Miller.

The budgets were out of control. American race fans were leaving by the year. American drivers were becoming less of a factor. Ovals were being phased out.

Same problems we face today with most of the same characters running the show. What a shock.

People want to talk about the 1995 ratings and attendance. You ever think more people tuned into races in 1995, because some (mostly the CART fanatics) knew what was coming in 1996? Most knew that 1995 was the last hurrah for CART and Indy Cars as they knew it.

And there is the "diversity" blast again. Or to say it another way, "We don't know what the hell we want to be and want to confuse the American consumer, so lets do a little bit of this and little bit of that and hope to survive for another year".

You know when Open Wheel Racing was at its most successful? When American kids from BOTH disciplines aspired to race Indy Cars. When the BEST American talent became Indy Car drivers. And that was a long time before 1995.


Uhhh...where do you come up with some of this stuff? Any facts or figures to support? As usual with you I doubt it. When the open wheel split came American open wheel was rivaling F1 as the dominate series, arguably. The crowds were packed at ALL track types all over the world and the series was full of sponsors, suppliers, and manufacturers. At worst, American open whell at that time was slightly more popular than NASCAR. That is common knowledge so if you have some details to back that up I would surely appreciate it. If no, shut up and quit saying stupid stuff that takes up time for the rest of us to comment on.

[harvick#1]

obvious F1 bias in that poll. and they are really only giving bias towards last season results, and not a career of a driver, nor the bad luck of a driver. for them to put TK behind Danica is a joke right

and how is Danica at #46 granted on 1 career win :confused: , but she'll drop off the map once she hits those Nationwide races

scrolling through, Danica should be in the range of 140th or so

and JPM ranked #23 is a farce.

[Scotty G.]

When the open wheel split came American open wheel was rivaling F1 as the dominate series, arguably. At worst, American open whell at that time was slightly more popular than NASCAR.

I hate to get into this rehash again, but this is too good... :D

Where do you get this stuff?

Rivaling F1? Are you serious? It was never even in the same stratosphere world-wide as F1. To think otherwise, is being very foolish. Indy Car, like today, only gets F1's washouts and scrap heap leftovers. It was never going to rival F1 in 1000 years.

They were (and still are) pretty even ratings-wise in the United States. Neither one garners much more then a 1 rating nowadays. F1 and road racing was so popular here in the United States, that the F1 US Grand Prix is long gone (joining Long Beach, Watkins Glen and Phoenix as other failures).

Indy Cars haven't been more popular then NASCAR in THIS COUNTRY since the late 1980's/early 1990's. NASCAR was already in the process of leaving Indy Cars in their rear-view mirror LONG before any "split". While Indy Cars were bringing more Maurcio Gugelmin's and Guido Dacco's into the sport, NASCAR was collecting all the American talent that Indy Car was ignoring.

While Indy Car was busy trying to be a Formula 1 junior series, NASCAR was taking off and bringing many long-time Indy Car fans with them. Again, this happened LONG before 1996.

"The Split" helped ensure Indy Car's demise as a relevent racing series, but that demise was likely going to happen anyway eventually.

[garyshell]

"The Split" helped ensure Indy Car's demise as a relevent racing series, but that demise was likely going to happen anyway eventually.


Ah yes, delusions of Nostradamus again, I see.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Uhh, the sport was already on its way to ruin, LONG before the IRL was founded. Some of you need to quit listening to guys like Kirby and Miller..
Why would I not listen to Kirby and Miller? Both are award winning journalists and have been inside the sport for DECADES. Discrediting the messenger is the last effort when you have no cogent argument.

The budgets were out of control. American race fans were leaving by the year. American drivers were becoming less of a factor. Ovals were being phased out..

The budgets were out of control? REALLLY? Roger Penske was no more out of control then than he is now. HE just had more money in sponsors. Ditto for every other owner in the paddock. As for American drivers not being a factor, too bad. If American drivers wanted to NOT drive stock cars for a living, CART was there. Tony's big sop to this was the midget and sprint car guys wouldn't have a top ring leading to Indy without the IRL. None of the stars with US passports in OW under Tony George came from Sprint and Midgets. If there is no US drivers leading the series, that is because the WORLD wanted to come to Indy. Typical kneejerk stupid reaction is to create some sort of socialism to keep US drivers in rides? THAT's stupid....


Same problems we face today with most of the same characters running the show. What a shock. .

We didn't have Barnhart, Cotman and others in 95. The teams that are still around will tell you that they had a lot easier time of it when people outside the die hards cared about Indycar racing.


People want to talk about the 1995 ratings and attendance. You ever think more people tuned into races in 1995, because some (mostly the CART fanatics) knew what was coming in 1996? Most knew that 1995 was the last hurrah for CART and Indy Cars as they knew it..That is a misleading idea. It is nothing more than your supposition. So should we believe the GROWING ratings in the early 90's when Nigel Mansell took his number 1 from f1 to race for Newman Haas was just a mirage? Oh right, he is a Brit, and therefore uninteresting.


And there is the "diversity" blast again. Or to say it another way, "We don't know what the hell we want to be and want to confuse the American consumer, so lets do a little bit of this and little bit of that and hope to survive for another year". .

Diversity means jack if the product on the track sucks. Should we ban all foreign drivers but you Americans from Indycar? Got news for you, there are lots of US drivers, they are going to NASCAR because that is where the money is. In 1993, CART was on the same level with NASCAR, so Michael Andretti and other US drivers were not going to NASCAR as an option.


You know when Open Wheel Racing was at its most successful? When American kids from BOTH disciplines aspired to race Indy Cars. When the BEST American talent became Indy Car drivers. And that was a long time before 1995.

Scotty, there has only BEEN one discipline. OW racing, whether it be CART or the IRL is the same basic layout of car. Mid engine with wings. The training ground for this type of car is Atlantics, Lights or any one of 5 or 6 jr. formulae in Europe. That didn't change with the creation of the IRL but Tony peddled that kool aid that he was going to save Indy for American drivers.

The only way he could have done that is if he put a front engine roadster formula on the track and then found a lot of money to toss out there for prizemoney. THAT would have gotten JJ Yeley, Tony Stewart and the like who were all coming of age in 1995 into Indy car.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I hate to get into this rehash again, but this is too good... :D

Where do you get this stuff?

Rivaling F1? Are you serious? It was never even in the same stratosphere world-wide as F1. To think otherwise, is being very foolish. Indy Car, like today, only gets F1's washouts and scrap heap leftovers. It was never going to rival F1 in 1000 years. .

Gee, Nigel Mansell was a washout? I guess you are to be condmened for LEAVING f1 to come to the IRL, and you are to be condemned if you couldn't MAKE f1 and come to the IRL. I don't care WHERE the drivers come from, I just want to see a show. I didn't put f1 and Indycar on the same pedestal, but I can tell you I would have rather watched an early 90's CART era race over any f1 races in that era. The racing was the best, even if those in Europe didn't see it as the "best".


They were (and still are) pretty even ratings-wise in the United States. Neither one garners much more then a 1 rating nowadays. F1 and road racing was so popular here in the United States, that the F1 US Grand Prix is long gone (joining Long Beach, Watkins Glen and Phoenix as other failures)..

f1 isn't here because people don't want to pay Bernie Ecclestone his "greenmail" to host the event. THAT is the only reason there is no regular f1 race in America. IF F1 wanted to get attention in this market, they wouldn't be playing this game with the US fan. What they do here or not has nothing to do with whether the IRL is successful. I would argue that Tony George's getting the USGP was a faint hope on his part to generate enough coin from f1 to fund the IRL instead of taking it out of Mari and the sister's pockets...


Indy Cars haven't been more popular then NASCAR in THIS COUNTRY since the late 1980's/early 1990's. NASCAR was already in the process of leaving Indy Cars in their rear-view mirror LONG before any "split". While Indy Cars were bringing more Maurcio Gugelmin's and Guido Dacco's into the sport, NASCAR was collecting all the American talent that Indy Car was ignoring. .

NASCAR was getting the talent from the Sprint and Midget ranks. Yeley, Stewart, Kasey Kahne, Jeff Gordon, Ryan Newman, Carl Edwards are all excellent sprint/midget guys. Stewart was the only one who tried the IRL and he did it because of his love of Indy. He went to NASCAR because he couldn't ignore the money. Same now with Hornish gone. They want the money. Why is there no money in the IRL? Because someone devalued the product with a pointless effort to control the sport, tearing it apart.


While Indy Car was busy trying to be a Formula 1 junior series, NASCAR was taking off and bringing many long-time Indy Car fans with them. Again, this happened LONG before 1996.

"The Split" helped ensure Indy Car's demise as a relevent racing series, but that demise was likely going to happen anyway eventually.

The Demise may or may not have happened because someone changed the course of history. How can you SAY that the demise was inevitable? You are giving your opinion on that one. That is fine, I am of the opinion that we will never know because CART and NASCAR had similar impact among the non-racing community in terms of fans and attention until 1995 when the IRL came along and the casual sports and racing fan thought it was just as stupid as anything they have ever heard.

The fact is, between the creation of the IRL, and CART's mismanagment of life without the Indy 500 drawing in their sponsors, the sport was destroyed.

You want to blame this on street and road courses and the lack of American drivers. They are symptoms of the problem, which is the devaluing of the product by confusing the consumer. Us die hard racing fans are the only ones left....the casual fan went to NASCAR where the sport wasn't run by idiots....

[SarahFan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-eXn7GDsbI

[Jag_Warrior]

The budgets were out of control. American race fans were leaving by the year. American drivers were becoming less of a factor. Ovals were being phased out.

I'll try one more time. :rolleyes: When the IRL was founded, it ran 100% ovals. There was a boatload of American drivers. Americans won championships. The equipment was relatively cheap. According to you, this was THE formula for success. So why was it neither successful nor profitable??? Don't go back into your act, like a dog trying to catch its tail. Just answer this (rather simple) question: ovals, Americans and cheap - why didn't it work?!

[anthonyvop]

My respect for her has actually gone up a touch, with this statement.

You would have thought a "USAC" guy or gal said this. Maybe the powers that be (whoever that is) in Indy Car should take a little closer look at their current vision of the sport. Because if someone who grew up on road courses and went to Europe for road racing, thinks Indy Car Racing has gotten too "non-oval" for her liking, then what does the rest of AOW (most of whom are oval fans FIRST) think?

Indy Car Racing should be about OVAL racing with road racing only making up a minority % of its events. Yes, I know some of you like the "diversity of tracks" of the current brand of Indy Car. That's swell. Too bad the American race fan does not seem to feel the same way.

And street racing should be banished for good. It has no place in ANY form of racing; let alone the one that's marquis event is the Indianapolis 500. And pretty soon (by 2011), street racing will make up more of the Indy Car schedule then ovals. That is just flat wrong. Even DP would agree with me. ;)

For once, Danica Patrick is actually speaking for most of AOW and not just herself. Maybe it took her leaving for NASCAR to be more in touch with American race fans. :D

Of course she wants more Oval racing. It is the only form of racing she even has a chance of actually wining at.

And

She is trying to jump into NASCAR...a basically all oval series.

You may think she is speaking for most AOW fans but she isn't speaking for Formula Car racing fans.

[Ironcurtainantihero]

I'll try one more time. :rolleyes: When the IRL was founded, it ran 100% ovals. There was a boatload of American drivers. Americans won championships. The equipment was relatively cheap. According to you, this was THE formula for success. So why was it neither successful nor profitable??? Don't go back into your act, like a dog trying to catch its tail. Just answer this (rather simple) question: ovals, Americans and cheap - why didn't it work?!

Very good,. fair and accurate question, Jag_Warrior. I would love to hear Scotty G's answer to that myself.

I would also ask these questions:

If that formula that you believe is the way to success, then why did IRL management change it's philosophy? Generally speaking in my experience, people don't change things when they are working well.

If you hate the IndyCar series so much-because of what you perceive the problems to be-why are you here complaining about it? There are other racing series that fit your All-Anglo, Non-furriner-I do know how to spell foreigner, but that is how certain people say it-all-oval beliefs. Why don't you just go watch those and stop complaining here? You're not achieving anything by complaining and whining here. All you're doing is irritating other people.

[Ironcurtainantihero]

Gee, Nigel Mansell was a washout? I guess you are to be condmened for LEAVING f1 to come to the IRL, and you are to be condemned if you couldn't MAKE f1 and come to the IRL. I don't care WHERE the drivers come from, I just want to see a show. I didn't put f1 and Indycar on the same pedestal, but I can tell you I would have rather watched an early 90's CART era race over any f1 races in that era. The racing was the best, even if those in Europe didn't see it as the "best".



f1 isn't here because people don't want to pay Bernie Ecclestone his "greenmail" to host the event. THAT is the only reason there is no regular f1 race in America. IF F1 wanted to get attention in this market, they wouldn't be playing this game with the US fan. What they do here or not has nothing to do with whether the IRL is successful. I would argue that Tony George's getting the USGP was a faint hope on his part to generate enough coin from f1 to fund the IRL instead of taking it out of Mari and the sister's pockets...



NASCAR was getting the talent from the Sprint and Midget ranks. Yeley, Stewart, Kasey Kahne, Jeff Gordon, Ryan Newman, Carl Edwards are all excellent sprint/midget guys. Stewart was the only one who tried the IRL and he did it because of his love of Indy. He went to NASCAR because he couldn't ignore the money. Same now with Hornish gone. They want the money. Why is there no money in the IRL? Because someone devalued the product with a pointless effort to control the sport, tearing it apart.



The Demise may or may not have happened because someone changed the course of history. How can you SAY that the demise was inevitable? You are giving your opinion on that one. That is fine, I am of the opinion that we will never know because CART and NASCAR had similar impact among the non-racing community in terms of fans and attention until 1995 when the IRL came along and the casual sports and racing fan thought it was just as stupid as anything they have ever heard.

The fact is, between the creation of the IRL, and CART's mismanagment of life without the Indy 500 drawing in their sponsors, the sport was destroyed.

You want to blame this on street and road courses and the lack of American drivers. They are symptoms of the problem, which is the devaluing of the product by confusing the consumer. Us die hard racing fans are the only ones left....the casual fan went to NASCAR where the sport wasn't run by idiots....

Very well said, Mark. :)

[Ironcurtainantihero]

Of course she wants more Oval racing. It is the only form of racing she even has a chance of actually wining at.

And

She is trying to jump into NASCAR...a basically all oval series.

You may think she is speaking for most AOW fans but she isn't speaking for Formula Car racing fans.

She isn't speaking for all AOW fans. What Scotty G did is take a quote that fits his agenda and viewpoint and tried-emphasis on tried-to extrapolate that into something solid, when in fact it is nothing more than a castle made of sand.

Scotty G, if you read this, she isn't speaking for all AOW fans, and neither are you. I'm an American and I totally disagree with your point of view.

[harvick#1]

Very well said, Mark. :)

Mark and Jag always do their homework

for how much Mark and I fight, I do almost always will agree with what he says

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark and Jag always do their homework

for how much Mark and I fight, I do almost always will agree with what he says

Thanks for the compliment. I didn't have to do so much research as much as just replay the same debate we had before CART died on who was killing the sport. Then I had to grow up a bit and realize we all were the losers for that period of racing and we needed a merger immediately. It didn't come in time, and it is obvious to me that we are teetering on the cliff.

The point that needs to be brought home was the highwater mark of Indycar in the public conscious was about the time Nigel came here as the f1 WORLD DRIVING CHAMPION. AT that time, Zanardi hadnt arrived, but he added to the series, despite being a non-American. The great majority of the American public were growing in tune with CART. You can research and read about that era's TV ratings, and look at the cars and depth of field and it is undeniable that whatever arguments were being used, the series had major sponsors on all the cars, the series had PPG as the Series sponsor, there was 20 races a season, the Indy 500 was still the INDY FREAKING 500 where people were watching Roger Penske MISS because he couldn't make it through Bump day. We had 3 to 4 major engines, we had 3 chassis. We had drivers from all countries, and major American drivers as the anchor. We had about 1/3 to 1/2 of the series on ovals, the rest on interesting road/street circuits.

So WHY in the hell did ANYONE think there was any reason to "fix" it?

We know..and I made all the arguments, don't need to go through them again.

Now Scotty digs up Danica wanting more ovals, and here we freaking go again?

Danica is speaking for Danica, and if I was only competitive on ovals like she is, I would say the same, but she is only speaking for herself. I doubt highly even her boss agrees with her. I can guarntee most of the drivers would disagree. I remember Dario complaining when he first went to the IRL how bored he was with one cookie cutter oval after another. I would take Dario's opinion as a two time champion and Indy 500 champion on what is right or wrong with the sport over Danica, but even with that, drivers have no clue what is best for the sport often. They see it from the inside, not the outside.

It is the great unwashed casual fans that judge this sport, and they voted when the war started....and now watch NASCAR. How we win them back is to look at what has worked (with real results and proof, not just assumptions) and try to get back to that place. Danica wouldn't know, she was just out of diapers when CART got going good....

[Scotty G.]

I'll try one more time. :rolleyes: When the IRL was founded, it ran 100% ovals. There was a boatload of American drivers. Americans won championships. The equipment was relatively cheap. According to you, this was THE formula for success. So why was it neither successful nor profitable??? Don't go back into your act, like a dog trying to catch its tail. Just answer this (rather simple) question: ovals, Americans and cheap - why didn't it work?!

Why are we even bringing this stuff up again? Danica's feelings on the continued evolution of the IRL into a road/street racing series, was what this thread was about. The fact that she speaks for most American racing people in that regard, I guess bothers some people here.

Back to the pointed question above....Because NASCAR was beating Indy Car's butt into oblivion and it didn't matter what the IRL or CART or Champ Car or whatever alphabet soup of AOW failure, you want to use tried. Plus some folks weren't tricked into watching "CART on ovals" (which is all the IRL was). Same/similar road racing/formula cars with mostly road racers and most of the same road racing owners. Just a different name/logo and a few catchy/lame slogans to try and diffentiate it from CART.

Again, for the class, Indy Car LOST ITS WAY IN THIS COUNTRY LONG BEFORE 1996. The tide towards NASCAR was already WELL ON ITS WAY LONG BEFORE 1996.

The split and the ensuing negative press from bitter folks like Miller, Kirby and Oreo, only made it worse.

TG made his share of mistakes (letting Tony Stewart get away being #1), but blaming him solely for the steaming pile of mess that this sport was becoming (and still is) is being too "CART-centric".

It didn't work, because NOTHING will work or would have worked. The fans (for many different reasons) left for NASCAR or left for other forms of racing and most are never coming back until a whole different group of leaders/owners/drivers rescue the sport from the pit.

[Scotty G.]

The point that needs to be brought home was the highwater mark of Indycar in the public conscious was about the time Nigel came here as the f1 WORLD DRIVING CHAMPION. AT that time, Zanardi hadnt arrived, but he added to the series, despite being a non-American.

Nigel was the one GOOD F1 driver, still in his prime, that came to CART. That was great. He lasted what, 2 years? Zanardi was a hack in F1, who came to America like so many before him and since, because he needed a job and F1 didn't want him. Chipster got lucky that Zanardi could actually drive, unlike a few others of his talent-grabs that missed the mark (Nic Minassian being one that comes to mind).


look at the cars and depth of field and it is undeniable that whatever arguments were being used, the series had major sponsors on all the cars,

Major sponsors, many of whom were tied to the ENGINE MANUFACTUERS MONEY. As soon as they left (and they ALWAYS leave), those teams would have been up a crick (like Cheever, Fernandez and Rahal are now in recent time). Also, the smoking advertising laws being changed would have killed some teams as well (I think that was the last actual sponsor that Gerry Forsythe had in racing). The economy was also a tad different back then too. It still didn't help a Johnny Rutherford or a Al Unser Sr secure a ride in the Indy 500 in the late 80's/early 90's. Why? Because they couldn't buy a ride, like Didier Theys and Dean Hall could. But they were top notch drivers, right?


We had drivers from all countries, and major American drivers as the anchor. We had about 1/3 to 1/2 of the series on ovals, the rest on interesting road/street circuits.

We have that now. Where are all the crazed fans, that want this type of series? You have your diverse series back. You have "interesting" street circuits. You are in foreign countries. You have lots of foreign drivers to "root" for. Look out NASCAR! Here comes Indy Car.



Danica is speaking for Danica, and if I was only competitive on ovals like she is, I would say the same, but she is only speaking for herself. I can guarntee most of the drivers would disagree.


Somehow, someway, Danica was competitive enough last year to finish 5th in points. So she isn't Marty Roth on road/street circuits. You are probably right, I betcha most of the drivers now (many of whom are F1 refugees) might disagree with her. Some don't belong on a high-speed oval to begin with. But that's fine. Get the sport back closer to its oval roots and those drivers won't come here anyway and we can get drivers back that actually aspire to be Indy Car drivers again.


I remember Dario complaining...

Dario is really good at complaining. He'd win a gold medal in the Olympics for it. Dario is only happy, when he is unhappy and whining about something or somebody. :p

[Scotty G.]

If you hate the IndyCar series so much-because of what you perceive the problems to be-why are you here complaining about it?


Why is it, when someone actually dares to bring up FAIR and BALANCED points about the state of the sport, that some fans get so bothered by it?

We are all fans. Some are more excited about the current state of the sport then others. Some feel like the sport could be improved.

It really does no good to rehash stuff from 15 years ago again. That story got old about 13 years ago. Them days are LONG over. CART died. Champ Car died. The IRL basically died. Indy Car is barely hanging on by a thread. Its way past time to change the course of the sport and keep it from going the way of Can-Am, Atlantics and Indy Lights (the first incarnation) and CART/Champ Car. They went away and this could too, if we aren't careful.

The IRL's most popular driver, is the one that was quoted as saying she disagrees with the direction of the series and its schedule. I think Sam Hornish Jr said similar things, on his way out the door a few years ago. Those are (arguably) the two biggest American Open Wheel Racing stars of the past decade. Maybe more folks should take what they say, more seriously. ;)

[garyshell]

The fact that she speaks for most American racing people in that regard, I guess bothers some people here.

No what bothers some people here is that you think this is a fact. And that you somehow think that your role here is to teach the rest of us. To wit:


Again, for the class, Indy Car LOST ITS WAY

and in closing:


Why is it, when someone actually dares to bring up FAIR and BALANCED points about the state of the sport, that some fans get so bothered by it?

Because it comes of alot more like unbalanced.

Gary

[chuck34]

I don't want to defend Scotty too much on this, but he does have some ground to stand on.

1992 was a water-shed year. AJ retired. Mears retired. Unser Sr. was all but done. So too was Mario. Emmo was winding down. Johcock, Rutherford, Sneva, and many of the other greats were either gone, or on their way out.

But possibly the biggest shock to the IndyCar world was Jeff Gordon signing will Bill Davis to run in the Bush series. This was BEFORE any split. And signaled the asendancy of the NASCAR juggernaught. This CAN NOT be ignored.

So with the old heros leaving, the new superstars going elsewhere, no one really stepping up from within, and the fact that '95-'96 was going to be the top of speeds regardless of what name the cars ran under ... the late 90's were going to be very tough wether the sanctioning body was CART, ChampCar, the IRL, AAA, or who ever else you can think of.

Splitting the fan base the way it was at EXACTLY the wrong time obviously didn't help anything, but the point is, things were going to be VERY tough anyway.

[TURN3]

Is it just me, or has this Scotty G person taken over as the most clueless and baseless poster on the forum? I just read a something as if watching a dog chase its tail...somehow the dog never gets to the tail and neither does this uhhh person. Can we ban stupidity here? Again, as has been asked about 6 times now, facts, figures, statistics please? Openwheel was at it's height in 1995 and other than the split happening in '96 nothing was slowing it down. NASACAR was at best on equal ground and CART was being touted globaly for its DIVERSITY. These are facts, all you or I have to do is pull up articles from '93 thru '98 to see. Nowhere will you read anything you've stated. Just preface your ignorant comments with IMO and you have every right to feel that way...you're wrong but feel you you may.

[Jag_Warrior]

Why are we even bringing this stuff up again? Danica's feelings on the continued evolution of the IRL into a road/street racing series, was what this thread was about. The fact that she speaks for most American racing people in that regard, I guess bothers some people here.

I keep bringing it up because you keep making it up. If what Danica claims is a FACT (as you claim), please provide the data proving that fact. Otherwise, it is just your opinion. I suspect you and Danica share one thing though: neither one of you has EVER won a pro road course auto race in your life. True? Of course she doesn't like road courses. I don't like doing things I'm not good at either! My gal-pal doesn't like shooting my Weatherby 300. Why? The same reason Danica doesn't like road courses: it knocks her on her a##. :p :



Back to the pointed question above....Because NASCAR was beating Indy Car's butt into oblivion and it didn't matter what the IRL or CART or Champ Car or whatever alphabet soup of AOW failure, you want to use tried. Plus some folks weren't tricked into watching "CART on ovals" (which is all the IRL was). Same/similar road racing/formula cars with mostly road racers and most of the same road racing owners. Just a different name/logo and a few catchy/lame slogans to try and diffentiate it from CART.

Again, for the class, Indy Car LOST ITS WAY IN THIS COUNTRY LONG BEFORE 1996. The tide towards NASCAR was already WELL ON ITS WAY LONG BEFORE 1996.

Into oblivion, you say? Then why don't the ratings and attendance data reflect what you claim to be true? It is true that NASCAR had been gaining in popularity since 1979, with the Fist Fight in the Infield. But it is also true that Indy's ratings were not topped by Daytona's until AFTER the split (1995 Indy: 8.4 vs. Daytona: 7.8 --- 1996 Indy: 6.6 vs. Daytona: 9.2). The ratings for the average NASCAR race had been higher than the ratings for the average CART race for some years. But the CART ratings were steady, not trending downward as you falsely claim. The ratings for Long Beach did not begin to trend downward until after 1995 (2.9). What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that sponsors would have been quite content with Long Beach ratings at 2.9, the Miami CART race at 2.7 or Detroit at 2.2. I worked for a company that sponsored a team. We put in even more money in the mid 90's! In fact, it was during this time that Mercedes, Honda and Toyota entered the sport (for better or worse). It was during this time that teams (as Mark pointed out) were well funded. I'm sorry that they didn't reach out and develop more American drivers. And I'm not claiming that serious errors were not made - there were. But you're making it up as you go, in true revisionist fashion, in trying to make your arguments stick to the wall.

That's (some of) the data that I have. If you have data to the contrary, please present it. But don't just keep stringing together words, relying on anecdotals and using the word "fact" in trying to blow smoke up our a##es.



The split and the ensuing negative press from bitter folks like Miller, Kirby and Oreo, only made it worse.

No argument with that.




TG made his share of mistakes (letting Tony Stewart get away being #1), but blaming him solely for the steaming pile of mess that this sport was becoming (and still is) is being too "CART-centric".

I might blame Tony George for a lot of things. But I can't blame him for Tony Stewart "getting away". Stewart made a free market decision. He was not a slave or an indentured servant.



It didn't work, because NOTHING will work or would have worked. The fans (for many different reasons) left for NASCAR or left for other forms of racing and most are never coming back until a whole different group of leaders/owners/drivers rescue the sport from the pit.

Look, "friend", the people on this board have been here for a number of years (look at the various join dates) and many/most have probably been following formula car racing for as long or longer than you have. We didn't just roll off the turnip truck last night. Present some facts and you won't have the feeling that people are resistant to your (unsupported) "truths". Whenever I hear someone say, "nothing would have worked", or when they claim something to be a fact, yet it's actually nothing more than their subjective opinion, I just accept that I'm conversing with a person with weak business acumen... and I wish them a good day.

So... good day. :wave:

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't want to defend Scotty too much on this, but he does have some ground to stand on.

1992 was a water-shed year. AJ retired. Mears retired. Unser Sr. was all but done. So too was Mario. Emmo was winding down. Johcock, Rutherford, Sneva, and many of the other greats were either gone, or on their way out.

But possibly the biggest shock to the IndyCar world was Jeff Gordon signing will Bill Davis to run in the Bush series. This was BEFORE any split. And signaled the asendancy of the NASCAR juggernaught. This CAN NOT be ignored.

So with the old heros leaving, the new superstars going elsewhere, no one really stepping up from within, and the fact that '95-'96 was going to be the top of speeds regardless of what name the cars ran under ... the late 90's were going to be very tough wether the sanctioning body was CART, ChampCar, the IRL, AAA, or who ever else you can think of.

Splitting the fan base the way it was at EXACTLY the wrong time obviously didn't help anything, but the point is, things were going to be VERY tough anyway.

Chuck, out of the respect I have for you, I will grant you points on your post. CART was in a transition on that score.

I will say just this. Jeff Gordon never really was that serious about getting into Indycar. You are right, some of you in the US were shocked this Sprint Car star went to NASCAR, but if you read his autobio, he basically said he looked at a season of Atlantic, and he didn't have a sponsor, and then he went to the Buck Baker school on a lark, and voila, he never looked at open wheel again.

Scott may think he knows what would have happened, but he has no more idea of what would have happened than the wizard of oz.

The split did more than confuse the spectators and casual fans. It drove off investors and manufacturers. Why would anyone want to really spend money if they didn't know what version of Indycars would survive?

Scott, you are mad we keep telling you the split created the end, but it is the damned Truth. PERIOD. Without the split, many things that came to pass that killed the interest in the sport would not have happened. It may have not turned into something that swallowed NASCAR, but it wouldn't be drawing test pattern ratings on a small time cable channel EITHER.

Fine Scott you believe the IRL was just great til all those Furrniers showed up and made people race on road courses, but the truth is the IRL succeeded in "Winning" because of two reasons: Tony George was willing to spend as much money as required to "win" and the people who kept coming into CART couldn't see what changes would help them and eventually screwed up a good formula by getting away totally from ovals and going too international.

That said, ...being all Ovals didn't work, and the IRL never did really embrace any American driver outside of Sam Hornish.

OH on Danica being so "great" vs Dario the "whiner"?

Danica will earn my respect if she does it two year ago without having someone else set her car up for her. Dario has 2 championship rings and has won the 500. Credibility comes with winning. You hate his guts because he aint American and is over here kicking your Tail I guess. You are the one who keeps bringnig up this American thing, like anything foreign is BAD. Here is a clue...the people who own Honda bombed Pearl Harbor....I guess you better go watch some NASCAR then eh?

[Mark in Oshawa]

...But it is also true that Indy's ratings were not topped by Daytona's until AFTER the split (1995 Indy: 8.4 vs. Daytona: 7.8 --- 1996 Indy: 6.6 vs. Daytona: 9.2). The ratings for the average NASCAR race had been higher than the ratings for the average CART race for some years. But the CART ratings were steady, not trending downward as you falsely claim. The ratings for Long Beach did not begin to trend downward until after 1995 (2.9). What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that sponsors would have been quite content with Long Beach ratings at 2.9, the Miami CART race at 2.7 or Detroit at 2.2. .

This here is what I was saying Scott. Jag worked in the sport. I was a volunteer at CART events from 89 through 2002. I have been involved in racing as a timing and scoring official until the last few years all the way from 1985. I have worked with CART/IRL timers and scorers, not to mention IMSA and SCCA officials. I can tell you that the conversations we are having here were had all the way through those years when this sport was sliding south, and we all agree to an extent that taking a sport and splitting it in two was extermely stupid. Your hero did it...not mine.....

There was a point where a lot of people should have done things different but the death of a thousand cuts only was fatal after cutting the healthy body in two.....

Discuss amongst yourselves all the revisionist nonsense you want. The TV ratings as Jag posted show the start of the decline kids.....

You can see how well things were in the IRL in 96 when the 500 ratings were WAY down from 95, and Buddy Freaking Lazier won. The depth of field in that race was a joke......and THAT was the ultimate insult. The guy trying to save the 500 damn near killed it in the first year....

[Scotty G.]

I will say just this. Jeff Gordon never really was that serious about getting into Indycar.

Bull.

The Gordon family moved to Indianapolis from California to be closer to Indy. That is what many folks USED to do, when they were interested in becoming Indy Car drivers (since that is the home of Indy Car racing and that is where most of the teams are based).

If you actually knew the story, you would have known that Jeff Gordon and his step-dad went to Cleveland for the CART race there in (I believe) 1991, trying to guage interest and see what it would take (and what Jeff would have to do) to become a INDY CAR DRIVER.

He was willing to go to Atlantics or Indy Lights.

Guess what happened? The ignorant car owners didn't have the time to talk to Jeff or his father. Didn't want to lower themselves to actually acknowledge an American oval track driver. Most probably had no idea who the kid was (even though he was on TV all the time, kicking ass on the ESPN thunder shows).

After Jeff and his step-dad were literally ignored and told to buzz off, they decided to turn their attention towards NASCAR.

NASCAR's gain and Indy Car's fatal loss is still being felt today.

[Scotty G.]

You can see how well things were in the IRL in 96 when the 500 ratings were WAY down from 95, and Buddy Freaking Lazier won. The depth of field in that race was a joke......and THAT was the ultimate insult.

Yes, its too bad that 1996 race at Indy didn't have the "professionalism", "talent" and "excitement" the US 500 had that year. Those boys at Michigan sure put on a hell of show. :D

And what do you have against Buddy Lazier? In his prime, he'd drive circles around most of the current "stars" of Indy Car on a oval. He more then proved his talent in 2005 at Indy, when all the cars and stars in Indy Car were together again. But I am sure you knew that, didn't you?

[beachbum]

Bull.

The Gordon family moved to Indianapolis from California to be closer to Indy. That is what many folks USED to do, when they were interested in becoming Indy Car drivers (since that is the home of Indy Car racing and that is where most of the teams are based).

If you actually knew the story, you would have known that Jeff Gordon and his step-dad went to Cleveland for the CART race there in (I believe) 1991, trying to guage interest and see what it would take (and what Jeff would have to do) to become a INDY CAR DRIVER.

He was willing to go to Atlantics or Indy Lights.

Guess what happened? The ignorant car owners didn't have the time to talk to Jeff or his father. Didn't want to lower themselves to actually acknowledge an American oval track driver. Most probably had no idea who the kid was (even though he was on TV all the time, kicking ass on the ESPN thunder shows).

After Jeff and his step-dad were literally ignored and told to buzz off, they decided to turn their attention towards NASCAR.

NASCAR's gain and Indy Car's fatal loss is still being felt today.I love revisionist history. In 1991, CART was able to attract established open wheel drivers who had extensive rear engine formula car experience. No team had no reason to look at an unproven short track driver who's experience was mostly on dirt - unproven in the sense that he hadn't driven rear engine cars on road courses. Don't forget that Indy was also centrally located for the midwestern short tracks.

As for the history of open wheel, my grandfather was a huge race fan, all the way back to the beginnings in the early 1900's. As he often pointed out, US open wheel racing started as mostly "stock" car racing. In the earliest era, a race car was built by just taking off the fenders - thus open wheel. The first Indy 500 was billed as an endurance test to prove production cars could race for 500 miles. He vividly remembered the days when racing was dominated by the board tracks. Even into the 60's, the cars has a legacy back to the early days as the cars still looked a lot like they did for 30+ years and still reflected the technology of production cars - front engine, solid axles, simple drivetrains, etc. He was a huge fan of both Indy car and early NASCAR. While he liked the rear engine revolution and understood the need for technology to advance, he also stated that the change made Indy car racing more "European" and less "American" in its heritage, forever changing the sport. The new cars had little connection to the cars people drove. For anyone who cares to look, the change began in 1961 with Jack Brabham.

Some would argue that the heyday of CART only existed because it brought European stars and European type racing to the US where American fans could see the drivers up close and see how they could handle America style racing. Eventually, that infatuation wore off as people realized the good drivers are all similar, regardless of heritage.

What is particularly odd about the original topic about Danica's proclamation is that her early goal was F1, then CART, then INDY, now NASCAR. In early interviews and articles, she wasn't interested in ovals as she was a road race "specialist". Funny how perspective changes as goals change. I put about as much credence in her opinion as that of an infomercial announcer. Purely self serving.

[anthonyvop]

And what do you have against Buddy Lazier? In his prime, he'd drive circles around most of the current "stars" of Indy Car on a oval. He more then proved his talent in 2005 at Indy, when all the cars and stars in Indy Car were together again. But I am sure you knew that, didn't you?
Key word.....OVAL!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Bull.

The Gordon family moved to Indianapolis from California to be closer to Indy. That is what many folks USED to do, when they were interested in becoming Indy Car drivers (since that is the home of Indy Car racing and that is where most of the teams are based).

If you actually knew the story, you would have known that Jeff Gordon and his step-dad went to Cleveland for the CART race there in (I believe) 1991, trying to guage interest and see what it would take (and what Jeff would have to do) to become a INDY CAR DRIVER.

He was willing to go to Atlantics or Indy Lights.

Guess what happened? The ignorant car owners didn't have the time to talk to Jeff or his father. Didn't want to lower themselves to actually acknowledge an American oval track driver. Most probably had no idea who the kid was (even though he was on TV all the time, kicking ass on the ESPN thunder shows).

After Jeff and his step-dad were literally ignored and told to buzz off, they decided to turn their attention towards NASCAR.

NASCAR's gain and Indy Car's fatal loss is still being felt today.

I read the book Scott. Yes, they had NO experience with that sort of car. His passport shouldn't have met they listened to him. Had Jeff run some Formula Fords or FF2000's and won in them, they would have had a hearing. Jeff admitedin the book he didn't want to put the time in to do what he had to do to get that rear engined experience. WHAT part of driving a sprint/midget translates into driving an Indy car? Not much...it has more in common with driving a stock car, and THAT is why Jeff went to NASCAR. When the guys he was coming up with saw that, they went to NASCAR too. So yes, it is a crime, but it wasn't some conspiracy on the part of CART team owners to kick American drivers to the curb as you subscribe.

Obviously you must be of the same fountain of intelligence that cannot grasp that the car doesn't care about your passport. I have NO doubt that Jeff Gordon would have succeeded, the man is a talent BUT at 17 or 18, no one in the sport was going to put him in an Atlantic over Patrick Carpentier or Alex Tagiliani for example. Both had raced nothing but rear engined race cars and won in them. Jeff was used to ovals only on dirt. Last I looked, CART even at that time never raced on dirt, and ovals were half of the sched, and NONE involved putting the car in a drift with the inside wheel in the air.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes, its too bad that 1996 race at Indy didn't have the "professionalism", "talent" and "excitement" the US 500 had that year. Those boys at Michigan sure put on a hell of show. :D

And what do you have against Buddy Lazier? In his prime, he'd drive circles around most of the current "stars" of Indy Car on a oval. He more then proved his talent in 2005 at Indy, when all the cars and stars in Indy Car were together again. But I am sure you knew that, didn't you?

First off, the US 500 was ONE event. Taken over a year, which series tore up the most equipment? You tell me that if you watch Talladega, and they have the "Big one" that is a reflection of how bad those NASCAR guys are? What happened that day was embarassing, but all it proved was how things can go badly at the start of a race at 230mph. Still wouldn't take any more than maybe 2 drivers from that 96 500 and say they were at the same level with the top 20 CART guys of that era....and Buddy isn't one of them.

What do I have against Buddy? Look at his record before the split? He was life and death to get a good ride. He wasn't turning down offers from Roger Penske. Roger probably didn't have his phone number. Buddy was a field filler. The year the "talent" leaves, he wins a 500. Look at what happens when guys like Tony Stewart and Sam Schmidt and the like come along. How many races does Buddy win then? Has Buddy ever been a threat to win at any track he goes to? No. Has Buddy ever had a top flight ride? NO. Why? HE ISNT THAT GOOD!!!! Buddy won that 500 because the best drivers were not there. It is THAT simple. You can laugh at the US 500 that day all you want, but it is a fallacy that one race takes the careers of Michael Andretti, Jimmy Vasser, Paul Tracy and the like and disqualifies their talent because believe me if they were at Indy in 1996 instead of Michigan, Buddy Freaking Lazier wouldn't have won the Indy 500.

Buddy is a great guy, suffered in a bad accident that didn't help his career, but lets face the reality. HE wasn't the same quality of driver that some of the other names on the Borg Warner driver are, and we are not even going to get into the fact he is only good on ovals, since we are only talking of the Indy 500 for this argument.

[chuck34]

We are quite off topic now, but Buddy Lazier IS that good on ovals. I do realize that the oval bit is a pretty big qualifyer, but I stand by what I said. Prior to Chevy pulling back, which hurt Hemelgarn badly, he was pretty much the top guy around. He was the only guy that kept Montoya honest at the 500 in 2000, and that is saying A LOT. It's hard to get a true gage on it because once the CART guys started comming over, his team started loosing funding. I'm sure a lot of you won't agree with me, and that's fine. All I ask is that you go back and watch the races from about 98 to 02 when he was at his prime, and watch with an open mind. You might be impressed.

[Jag_Warrior]

I read the book Scott. Yes, they had NO experience with that sort of car. His passport shouldn't have met they listened to him. Had Jeff run some Formula Fords or FF2000's and won in them, they would have had a hearing. Jeff admitedin the book he didn't want to put the time in to do what he had to do to get that rear engined experience. WHAT part of driving a sprint/midget translates into driving an Indy car? Not much...it has more in common with driving a stock car, and THAT is why Jeff went to NASCAR. When the guys he was coming up with saw that, they went to NASCAR too. So yes, it is a crime, but it wasn't some conspiracy on the part of CART team owners to kick American drivers to the curb as you subscribe.

Obviously you must be of the same fountain of intelligence that cannot grasp that the car doesn't care about your passport. I have NO doubt that Jeff Gordon would have succeeded, the man is a talent BUT at 17 or 18, no one in the sport was going to put him in an Atlantic over Patrick Carpentier or Alex Tagiliani for example. Both had raced nothing but rear engined race cars and won in them. Jeff was used to ovals only on dirt. Last I looked, CART even at that time never raced on dirt, and ovals were half of the sched, and NONE involved putting the car in a drift with the inside wheel in the air.

You're wasting your time with this character. All he's going to do when you present him with (actual) facts is move the topic to something else.

Yeah, who was Jeff Gordon in the early 90's? He only became a real somebody when he won the Brickyard 400 in 1994. Loads of people at that time thought he was just Robby Gordon's cousin. That rumor circulated for years. And while I agree that CART needed to have more up & coming American drivers about that time, who says that Gordon was THE one? I mean, even Bernie Ecclestone doesn't own a crystal ball when it comes to assessing talent. Looking backwards is always 20/20. A buddy showed me the Facebook page of a girl who had a major crush on me in high school (and who I totally ignored). Jumping Jehosaphat, she blossomed into a stunner! Meanwhile our Homecoming Queen probably weighs about 2 bucks and a quarter now. Who knew?

But anyway, I now find Scotty to be boring. I think I'll go look at some photos of Milka Duno or something more interesting than his banter. :dozey:

[nigelred5]

We are quite off topic now, but Buddy Lazier IS that good on ovals. I do realize that the oval bit is a pretty big qualifyer, but I stand by what I said. Prior to Chevy pulling back, which hurt Hemelgarn badly, he was pretty much the top guy around. He was the only guy that kept Montoya honest at the 500 in 2000, and that is saying A LOT. It's hard to get a true gage on it because once the CART guys started comming over, his team started loosing funding. I'm sure a lot of you won't agree with me, and that's fine. All I ask is that you go back and watch the races from about 98 to 02 when he was at his prime, and watch with an open mind. You might be impressed.

Hmmm, a multi year IRL veteran at that time, keeping an Indy rookie in a strange car honest...... He should have wiped the table clean.

[speeddurango]

Most American race fans, are what we are talking about. And most American race fans are oval fans

Not even making reference to the heyday of AOWR, even now, road courses races managed to get higher ratings than that of ovals.

You just made things, man.

[Scotty G.]

Had Jeff run some Formula Fords or FF2000's and won in them, they would have had a hearing. Jeff admitedin the book he didn't want to put the time in to do what he had to do to get that rear engined experience.

You are dead wrong.

Look, I know the story. He went to Cleveland to meet Indy Car owners and figure out what it would take to eventually become a Indy Car driver. And if that meant running in Formula Fords or Star Mazda, that would have been fine (remember, he didn't just jump into a Busch or Cup car when he went to NASCAR; he spent time LEARNING there too).

He and his family moved to Indiana, partly to be closer to Indy and Indy Car Racing. His racing hero was Rick Mears.

Jeff Gordon wanted to be a Indy Car driver, early in his racing career. This cannot be argued. He was trying to do the right thing, by going to Cleveland and kissing ass, err... I mean speaking with the owners and movers and shakers of the sport. And guess what? Most didn't want anything to do with him. Most ignored him. Most didn't give a crap how talented he was or where he came from. The few that did speak to him, only talked about how big a check he could write to join their little club. As AJ Foyt told him up there, "You ought to get away from these (expletive deleted) and go to NASCAR". He took AJ's advice and the rest is history.

Believe me, I know the story on this one. But I am sure Gordon wouldn't have been able to hack it in Indy Cars. He obviously has no talent and I am sure he has no fanbase either. Its a good thing Indy Car's owners are such great eyes for talent and understand the American consumer so well. :rolleyes:

[Scotty G.]

Yeah, who was Jeff Gordon in the early 90's?

Yes, he was a nobody.

I mean he only won 11 poles in Busch in 1992.

He had only won Cup Rookie of the Year in 1993 and finished 14th in points.

He had only won the Coke 600 in 1994, for his first Cup win.

He was already a full-time driver in America's favorite racing series.

He was already more popular and better known in 1994 before winning at Indy, then 80% of the Indy Car gang.

Yes, he was another Darren Manning or Vitor Meira. :D

[Scotty G.]

We are quite off topic now, but Buddy Lazier IS that good on ovals. I do realize that the oval bit is a pretty big qualifyer, but I stand by what I said. Prior to Chevy pulling back, which hurt Hemelgarn badly, he was pretty much the top guy around. He was the only guy that kept Montoya honest at the 500 in 2000, and that is saying A LOT. It's hard to get a true gage on it because once the CART guys started comming over, his team started loosing funding. I'm sure a lot of you won't agree with me, and that's fine. All I ask is that you go back and watch the races from about 98 to 02 when he was at his prime, and watch with an open mind. You might be impressed.

Thank you Chuck.

A lot of these folks chiming in on this subject need to take off their CART jammies and realize that there were actually drivers out there, that may have not driven in their beloved series, that either didn't get a fair shake or never got any shot, to show their true talent.

Buddy Lazier, on a oval, in his prime, could have held his own with anyone who has graced their presence in this sport, in the past 25 years. Anyone. He should have shut all of the naysayers up, by what he accomplished in 2005 at Indy (in a one-off entry) and what he accomplished in 2008 just to make the race (in a total heap of a car).

And since the only race that matters in this sport is Indy and it just happens to be a oval, then being good on ovals (while not being so good on roads/streets) is more important.

[Blancvino]

"Believe me, I know the story on this one."

When someone says this, my credibility meter starts going off.

[edv]

Look, I know the story. .. if that meant running in Formula Fords or Star Mazda, that would have been fine (remember, he didn't just jump into a Busch or Cup car when he went to NASCAR; he spent time LEARNING there too).

Umm...if you knew the story, then you'd know that Star Mazda did not have their first championship until 1999. :dozey:

[TURN3]

When someone says this, my credibility meter starts going off.

He lost credibility and his sense about 42 posts ago.

[Jag_Warrior]

Thank you Chuck.

A lot of these folks chiming in on this subject need to take off their CART jammies and realize that there were actually drivers out there, that may have not driven in their beloved series, that either didn't get a fair shake or never got any shot, to show their true talent.

Buddy Lazier, on a oval, in his prime, could have held his own with anyone who has graced their presence in this sport, in the past 25 years. Anyone. He should have shut all of the naysayers up, by what he accomplished in 2005 at Indy (in a one-off entry) and what he accomplished in 2008 just to make the race (in a total heap of a car).

And since the only race that matters in this sport is Indy and it just happens to be a oval, then being good on ovals (while not being so good on roads/streets) is more important.

Well, here's a few things that I want to address with you...

Oh look, I found a penny.

[garyshell]

Well, here's a few things that I want to address with you...

Oh look, I found a penny.


Oooooooo.... Shiney.......

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Just a friendly reminder to all, these boards are a place for people to express opinions and discuss racing. Views on almost any subject will differ dramatically. Tolerance for those diverse views, particularly the ones you may personally not espouse, is central to keeping the board an interesting place. Some of the posts in this thread are getting closer to becoming personal insults. Let's not go any further in that direction. Always remember - attack the post and not the poster.

I disagree with that statement 100% The sooner you agree with me the sooner the world will be a better place.

[beachbum]

When someone says this, my credibility meter starts going off.Mine went off very early in the thread and has been flashing red ever since.

Many people like to speculate on the "what if's", but it is only that - speculation. We will never know what could have happened if the split never happened, or what could have happened if driver x would have made a right turn instead of a left, or what could have happened if person Y ran a series instead of person Z. None of that happened. We can guess based on our own experience, or hopes, or dreams, or fantasies, but in the end that is all just a guess.

If the split never happened, would any major open wheel racing even exist in the US? Without big self-serving TV contracts, would NASCAR be as big as it is?

The pundits can pontificate all they want, but we have what we have, so get used to it. Rolling back the clock ain't gonna happen. There are no "do overs" in life.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes, he was a nobody.

I mean he only won 11 poles in Busch in 1992.

He had only won Cup Rookie of the Year in 1993 and finished 14th in points.

He had only won the Coke 600 in 1994, for his first Cup win.

He was already a full-time driver in America's favorite racing series.

He was already more popular and better known in 1994 before winning at Indy, then 80% of the Indy Car gang.

Yes, he was another Darren Manning or Vitor Meira. :D

When he went looking for a ride in Atlantics, he had NOTHING but Sprint and Midget experience, and once he drove a stockcar, he freely admitted he never wanted to drive anything else. I know this is hard for you to grasp, but NO ONE save Bickford and Jeff KNEW just how much talent this kid had. You don't take a guy who has never seen a Formula Atlantic, Indy Light or Indycar and toss him in there when he spent all those ovals on dirt driving a Silver Crown sprinter or Outlaw. IF it was, Steve Kinser and Dave Blaney would have had rides too...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mine went off very early in the thread and has been flashing red ever since.

Many people like to speculate on the "what if's", but it is only that - speculation. We will never know what could have happened if the split never happened, or what could have happened if driver x would have made a right turn instead of a left, or what could have happened if person Y ran a series instead of person Z. None of that happened. We can guess based on our own experience, or hopes, or dreams, or fantasies, but in the end that is all just a guess.

If the split never happened, would any major open wheel racing even exist in the US? Without big self-serving TV contracts, would NASCAR be as big as it is?

The pundits can pontificate all they want, but we have what we have, so get used to it. Rolling back the clock ain't gonna happen. There are no "do overs" in life.

No do overs indeed, and this sport isn't going to be able to heal the hole in their fanbase by anything simple. IF it was that simple, one side or the other would have truly "WON" more than just the battle of attrition. A Pyrric victory if there ever was one....

[chuck34]

When he went looking for a ride in Atlantics, he had NOTHING but Sprint and Midget experience, and once he drove a stockcar, he freely admitted he never wanted to drive anything else. I know this is hard for you to grasp, but NO ONE save Bickford and Jeff KNEW just how much talent this kid had. You don't take a guy who has never seen a Formula Atlantic, Indy Light or Indycar and toss him in there when he spent all those ovals on dirt driving a Silver Crown sprinter or Outlaw. IF it was, Steve Kinser and Dave Blaney would have had rides too...

Come on Mark, the kid had talent, you can not deny that. Well I guess if one had never seen Thursday/Saturday Night Thunder, and from another country I suppose that could maybe be forgiven.

But I do agree that he should have probably tested the waters in an FF2000 or something. But then again perhaps someone like Chip or Roger should have told him that. I don't know. But to say that he didn't have talent, and no one knew it is preposterous. Bill Davis shure as hell knew he had talent, Rick Hendrick too.

And don't get me started on Kinser, Blaney, et al. That opens a whole nother can of worms with me. And probably shows me as one of the only ones here that actually liked the late 90's IRL more than today (yet again). :-(

[Mark in Oshawa]

Come on Mark, the kid had talent, you can not deny that. Well I guess if one had never seen Thursday/Saturday Night Thunder, and from another country I suppose that could maybe be forgiven.

But I do agree that he should have probably tested the waters in an FF2000 or something. But then again perhaps someone like Chip or Roger should have told him that. I don't know. But to say that he didn't have talent, and no one knew it is preposterous. Bill Davis shure as hell knew he had talent, Rick Hendrick too.

And don't get me started on Kinser, Blaney, et al. That opens a whole nother can of worms with me. And probably shows me as one of the only ones here that actually liked the late 90's IRL more than today (yet again). :-(

Chuck, Jeff Gordon is one of the greatest race drivers the US has EVER produced. In 1992, he had ONLY run sprint/midget cars though. No one could have expected him to move to Atlantics or on into Indy Car directly with no pedigree in that sort of racing. He hadn't even SEEN a road course, so why would a team owner take a chance on Jeff Gordon when Jimmy Vasser had won two FF2000 titles in Canada? Should someone have tested Jeff? Hindsight says yes, but the reality is there are 10 guys out there with promise for most rides or at least at that time in racing history. Jeff and his step dad didn't spend a huge amount of time knocking on doors either. Jeff took his school with Buck Baker and that was all it took to show him the way to NASCAR.

The fact Tony Stewart came along 3 or 4 years later and DID get a ride with the new IRL was a credit to what Tony George was trying to do, but for the most part, most of the talent the IRL cultivated were guys who didn't get CART rides but were Europeans or Brazilians. Vitor Meira, Scheckter, and the like were all guys who were non-Americans who all used the IRL and are still there. Talent usually wins out in the end, but the talent has to sometimes be patient. Jeff and his Step-dad were not patient with the process, and it is to CART's discredit they missed out, but that happens. The IRL didn't miss out when Tony Stewart came along, but I suspect if the split had never happened, there is a good chance Tony would have done what it took to get into CART/Indycars. He didn't look to NASCAR until it was clear that the money wasn't in the IRL, and his more corpulent form was getting harder and harder to shove into a open cockpit..

[chuck34]

Mark, I agree that Jeff should have taken the inititive and run some stuff on his own. But the owners should have been able to see his potential (again, it WAS REDILY apparent even then), and helped him into a FF2000 or something so to "grease the wheels" so to speak.

Also don't forget that there really weren't many Sprint/Midget guys going to NASCAR then either. Jeff really started that trend. What was it that Bill Davis could see that Roger Penske could not?

[SarahFan]

was the path to an indycar seat that unclear in the early 90's that driver had to attend an event to get advice as where to race to be seen?

[Blancvino]

Danica Patrick comments have now completely morphed into Jeff Gordon getting overlooked as an open wheel driver.

Segueway?

[SarahFan]

Danica Patrick comments have now completely morphed into Jeff Gordon getting overlooked as an open wheel driver.

Segueway?

at least it turned into a meaningful discussion.....



*seriosly....besides DanicaFan, at this point do any the diehard fans that frequent the racing boards in the off season give a rats arse about danica, what she has to say, where she races or whether she races at all

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, I agree that Jeff should have taken the inititive and run some stuff on his own. But the owners should have been able to see his potential (again, it WAS REDILY apparent even then), and helped him into a FF2000 or something so to "grease the wheels" so to speak.

Also don't forget that there really weren't many Sprint/Midget guys going to NASCAR then either. Jeff really started that trend. What was it that Bill Davis could see that Roger Penske could not?

Bill Davis was told by many who saw Jeff at the Baker school that the kid was a natural. Also, Bill Davis wasn't the top team in NASCAR's Busch division, he was a guy wanting to make a splash and a difference. Owners in THAT situation will take a chance.

CART owners probably did say the Gordon brain trust needed to get him into some FF2000 or Atlantic tests, but from what I read of Jeff's autobio, it was clear to me he didn't really want to do that; or at least, they never really got that serious about it. It was almost as if the second he took that school in a stock car, he forgot all about the Indy 500 as his life's goal. I never once have gotten the impression from his own autobio or any other references that Jeff was really shunned per se. He may not have gotten the respect you thought he was due, and that may be, but in mid season, to get the attention of team owners you must have done something that makes them take notice, and as I said, driving a Silver Crown car on dirt or an Outlaw is not the place you get Indycar drivers from. It hasn't changed either.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

at least it turned into a meaningful discussion.....



*seriosly....besides DanicaFan, at this point do any the diehard fans that frequent the racing boards in the off season give a rats arse about danica, what she has to say, where she races or whether she races at all

I wont beat up on Danica. I just protested this idea she was speaking for anyone but herself, and that is what has put gasoline on the fire....

[SarahFan]

I wont beat up on Danica. I just protested this idea she was speaking for anyone but herself, and that is what has put gasoline on the fire....

I dont feel i was beating up on her .....

I simply dont care one way or the other what she has to say or whether she races or not...do you?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I dont feel i was beating up on her .....

I simply dont care one way or the other what she has to say or whether she races or not...do you?

Oh I wasn't critcizing your take at all Ken. I used to feel she annoyed me but I realized it wasn't Danica I objected to, it was the fawning simpletons at ABC/ESPN when they cover the series who kept making it sound like we all should CARE what she did or thought. The reality is I have always thought her to be a marginal talent with good PR....

[SarahFan]

Oh I wasn't critcizing your take at all Ken. I used to feel she annoyed me but I realized it wasn't Danica I objected to, it was the fawning simpletons at ABC/ESPN when they cover the series who kept making it sound like we all should CARE what she did or thought. The reality is I have always thought her to be a marginal talent with good PR....

me too.....

if she disappeared from AOWR tomorrow I wouldn't notice pass the week or so of articles and forum chit chat....

[chuck34]

was the path to an indycar seat that unclear in the early 90's that driver had to attend an event to get advice as where to race to be seen?

In my estimation, yes it was that unclear what the path was. Up untill the early '80s or so the path was clear. Sprints, midgets, etc. Then throughout the 80s it wasn't as cut and dry. Guys started comming from all over. The path became unclear.

[chuck34]

Bill Davis was told by many who saw Jeff at the Baker school that the kid was a natural. Also, Bill Davis wasn't the top team in NASCAR's Busch division, he was a guy wanting to make a splash and a difference. Owners in THAT situation will take a chance.

CART owners probably did say the Gordon brain trust needed to get him into some FF2000 or Atlantic tests, but from what I read of Jeff's autobio, it was clear to me he didn't really want to do that; or at least, they never really got that serious about it. It was almost as if the second he took that school in a stock car, he forgot all about the Indy 500 as his life's goal. I never once have gotten the impression from his own autobio or any other references that Jeff was really shunned per se. He may not have gotten the respect you thought he was due, and that may be, but in mid season, to get the attention of team owners you must have done something that makes them take notice, and as I said, driving a Silver Crown car on dirt or an Outlaw is not the place you get Indycar drivers from. It hasn't changed either.....


So there were no guys waiting to make a splash in CART, Atlantics, Indy Lights, or elsewhere?

It could be that once he drove a stock car, he loved it and really didn't care about Indy anymore. I can't dispute that, and you don't know for sure either. And frankly that isn't the interesting bit to me. The more interesting question is WHY he felt he had to go test the stock car waters.

And for years upon years driving a Silver Crown car WAS the way to get to Indy. Sure it had changed a bit, but it wasn't that far removed by then.

[chuck34]

Mark, I hate to keep harping on this point, but I'm gonna :-) You seem to discredit Gordon's success as "only" being in Sprints/Midgets, etc. But you really do need to understand that that was THE way to get to Indy for most of history. ALL the greats came from there, Unser, Andretti, Foyt, etc. And in the late 80's early 90's that trend had really only began to shift to the F2000, Atlantic types. It hadn't been set in "stone" yet that you had to drive a rear engine formula car before Indycars.

The next step after sprints/midgets was not NASCAR until AFTER Jeff Gordon. Remember he caught lots of flack from the NASCAR boys for not going through the proper channels of Late Models, etc.

[SarahFan]

In my estimation, yes it was that unclear what the path was. Up untill the early '80s or so the path was clear. Sprints, midgets, etc. Then throughout the 80s it wasn't as cut and dry. Guys started comming from all over. The path became unclear.

seemed pretty clear ofr guys like Tracy and herta.....and frankly andretti, unser, vasser etc?


if jeff truly wanted a INDYCAR ride why didn't he get in an atlantic or indylights ride?.....

seems to me it was clear AT THE TIME those two series were the stepping stone

[chuck34]

seemed pretty clear ofr guys like Tracy and herta.....and frankly andretti, unser, vasser etc?


if jeff truly wanted a INDYCAR ride why didn't he get in an atlantic or indylights ride?.....

seems to me it was clear AT THE TIME those two series were the stepping stone

That was one path no doubt, but it wasn't THE path yet. There were still a boat load of guys running in the series that had come up the traditional path. And, again, those were the GREATS.

[SarahFan]

question for scotty g....

when jeff went knocking on doors at cleveland did any owners, other drivers, team members etc suggest he find a ride in the lights or atlantics?

[Scotty G.]

question for scotty g....

when jeff went knocking on doors at cleveland did any owners, other drivers, team members etc suggest he find a ride in the lights or atlantics?


Very few owners even had the time to talk to him or his father (which is not surprising being that most of the owners then and now, look DOWN at those that come from American short track backgrounds as being inferior). The few that did, only talked about buying a ride into Lights or Atlantics and really could have cared less about how talented he actually was (or what he had already accomplished). It was ALL about the $$$$ (which it still is). They didn't have the coin or connections yet, to pay their way into a lower-tier series that wasn't a slam dunk to ever get them to Indy anyway ("the ladder to nowhere" was already in effect for many young Americans at this time).

The best advice the family got was from AJ Foyt (as I mentioned earlier). It wasn't long after that day, that Jeff and Bickford turned their full attention towards NASCAR and a future there (they were weighing their options at this time and were open to either persuing a Indy Car or NASCAR career). The difference in the reception they got when they went South from how they were treated that day in Cleveland was like night-and-day.

The rest as they say, is history.

[Mark in Oshawa]

So there were no guys waiting to make a splash in CART, Atlantics, Indy Lights, or elsewhere?

It could be that once he drove a stock car, he loved it and really didn't care about Indy anymore. I can't dispute that, and you don't know for sure either. And frankly that isn't the interesting bit to me. The more interesting question is WHY he felt he had to go test the stock car waters.

And for years upon years driving a Silver Crown car WAS the way to get to Indy. Sure it had changed a bit, but it wasn't that far removed by then.

Chuck, IT is in his BOOK. I didn't make it up...go find it and tell me where I was wrong. Jeff phoned his stepdad from the school and told him to get him into a stockcar. The fact he tested the waters was he kept his options open.

Silver Crown cars do great things to train people to drive front engined rear drive cars on ovals, but they do nothing to train people to race rear engined winged cars on road courses AND ovals. Other than Tony Stewart, no major Talent came to Indycar from this world. IT is a long shot, and if Jeff had persevered he might have made it. He was 18 at the time, and had no pedigree in the form of racing he wanted into. In NASCAR, there are more teams, more owners willing to gamble, and no pool of ready trained drivers for that form of racing coming off the plane every year. Jeff Gordon ended up in a stock car not because of some GRAND conspiracy but because it was an easier ladder for him to get on the next rung.

Nothing worth while come easily, and if Jeff had set his heart and soul on eventually driving an Indycar, he would had got rides in Atlantics or 2000's or something that would have gotten him the experience he needed to convince the CART owners of that era that he was serious. We all know he was a damn good driver, but how many guys come from the USAC ranks have had tryouts or tried to make it when Tony George was encouraging them and how many have won races? Tony Stewart...and like Jeff, he is an all world talent, one that rarely comes along. Hasn't been one like Tony since he left the IRL either...at least, not from that background.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Very few owners even had the time to talk to him or his father (which is not surprising being that most of the owners then and now, look DOWN at those that come from American short track backgrounds as being inferior). The few that did, only talked about buying a ride into Lights or Atlantics and really could have cared less about how talented he actually was (or what he had already accomplished). It was ALL about the $$$$ (which it still is). They didn't have the coin or connections yet, to pay their way into a lower-tier series that wasn't a slam dunk to ever get them to Indy anyway ("the ladder to nowhere" was already in effect for many young Americans at this time).

The best advice the family got was from AJ Foyt (as I mentioned earlier). It wasn't long after that day, that Jeff and Bickford turned their full attention towards NASCAR and a future there (they were weighing their options at this time and were open to either persuing a Indy Car or NASCAR career). The difference in the reception they got when they went South from how they were treated that day in Cleveland was like night-and-day.

The rest as they say, is history.

I read Jeff's book too..and he was adamant that while Indy was a dream, he also said the minute he opened up the stock car at that school, he knew that was his future.

I know you want to believe that it was Roger Penske's secret conspiracy against American drivers or maybe Chip's, but Jeff Gordon was an 18 year old kid who had never even driven a rear engined car, and John Bickford was not an agent they knew anything about. Quite frankly, if I showed up representing some whiz kid out of Ontario here, they wouldn't treat me any worse or better.....a polite no, and tell him to come back when he has done something.

For the last time, Tony George created the IRL so these guys would have that ladder...and how many did he find that could hang onto a ride? Tony Stewart...that's it.\

Revisionism.....because if Jeff Gordon had fallen on his rear, we are NOT having this conversation about how wrong CART owners were in 1991 at Cleveland. I bet if Bickford showed up at every race, he would have eventually got a test for the kid.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Actually the path was pretty clear through most of the 80s. You started in SCCA Nationals, then went on to F2000, then Atlantics, then ARS (later Lights); maybe some IMSA to round out. Vasser was the last to really make it big that way. The later 80s and the 90s were pretty clear too; bring a lot of money or have a pedigree from overseas.

There was some justification to the pedigree from overseas. Over there you raced a lot. You got a whole bunch of seat time; much more than anyone over here could get because the domestic training series only ran 12 to maybe 15 times a year. The competition there was stiffer too because every kid in the world who wanted to race went there. You could race FFs in England twice a week if you wanted. For a rookie trying to make the big time there is no substitute for lots and lots of experience.

It is a similar route that many people chose to take those years. The Export A F2000 series here in Canada had Claude Bourbonnais, Patrick Carpentier, Vasser and others..and it was just one series when USAC was running their version of the same cars.

The problem isn't the top of the food chain, it is in that the rungs on the ladder up are not as defined, and if you cant get your one break and take advantage of it, it can end. I look at a guy like Andrew Ranger who went to NASCAR's Canadian Tire series, and I know that he has the talent to run an Indycar, but he lost his ride in CCWS, and there was no place for a guy who wasn't brining money. That is what happens when the sponsors are not coming in the way they did in the 80's or early 90's.

AS the series gets healthier, the guys with talent maybe who are NOT bringing money will get more shots.

Quite frankly, Racing is littered with people who never managed to make it more to circumstance than for any other reason.