WRC car on TG test track?

[Doon]

I know this isn't directly relevant to the WRC, but I have always wondered how a WRC car would do round the Top Gear test track and why they have never put one round it, anyone know why? The main reason they should is cos that the car is road legal and joe bloggs (a rich joe bloggs) could go out and buy one and drive it anywhere they want! Anyway it would be nice to see something wipe the floor with that thing with the silly, long name!

[sal]

Rally cars have already been round the test track in the first series if memory serves me right. Certainly remember a MK1 Escort Quattro and a WRC car being involved.

[Iain]

I vaguely remember them doing an Old vs New feature with some old rallycars and their modern day versions.

[Doon]

I seem to remember them racing a mk1 or 2 escort against a focus rs, but never a WRC.

[janneppi]

You'd think Ford would give them a car and a Stig for one day, perhaps they don't want to risk loosing to a road car. :)

[Doon]

I'm pretty sure the WRC would top the times, as long as the stig was a rally driver!

[306 Cosworth]

They've never had a WRC Car on there, but would be good to see a Xsara or Focus 06 round there, maybe even Eugene Donnelly in his S12 Impreza :p :

[Magnus]

In Sweden we have a stage which is run by "Bilsport". The cars are normally driven by the swedish rally champ Tomas "Gullabo" Jansson.
During the years hundreds of cars have done the stage, so this list: http://rejsa.nu/superstage/
gives a good view of different cars and their abilities.
On this site are also some interesting tech stats regarding the cars. Tha best WRC is a Ford Focus, run by Andreas Eriksson, who in the Swedish rally this year(I think) escaped from the road in to a tree with some severe damage to the car, some back-injury to the co-driver.
The no 1 is a radical.
Between the wrc an the to are some modified M3s and porsches

[grugsticles]

I too think this would make for a fantastic segment. Perhaps even a little insight to the design of a WRCar?

[koko0703]

I guess it's not that race track, but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_43AOdfKcbY

[jonas_mcrae]

I guess it's not that race track, but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_43AOdfKcbY

Not the same track but it IS topgear, i really liked the accent, loked cool, also where those tarmac tires on gravel? haha nice sideways action from Alister

[Tomski]

What about getting the real "Stig" to drive as opposed to the young pretender?

[turves]

The old versus new feature was an Escort Mk1 against a roadgoing Focus RS, and there was a Quattro against a roadgoing Mitsu Evo (VII I think), both rally cars lost!!!

I dont know whether a current WRC car would win against some of the current supercars, but it would be interesting to find out.

I seem to remember hearing, quite a while ago, that during the Grp B era someone took a Delta S4 in tarmac spec around a circuit (Estoril I think) and it would have qualified 5th in that years Grand Prix! (not sure how true this is)

[Magnus]

You can read abt Grp B here: http://www.stormloader.com/groupb/index.html

Generally however you can expect a modern WRC to be faster on a tricky stage, as for example the superstage which I mentioned above. As you can see in the ranks regarding the superstage the WRC is performing very good, even though it is a somewhat outdated Focus. The WRC will, as many supercharged(turbo) cars, loose time when it comes to faster circuits. Using a compressor is better...

[GigiGalliNo1]

I guess it's not that race track, but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_43AOdfKcbY

Tarmac tyres on gravel? Hrmmm

[Daniel]

Tarmac tyres on gravel? Hrmmm
It's just a tv feature......

[AndyRAC]

I can't see any of the teams/Manufacturers agreeing to this, mainly because I don't think the WRCars would be that competitive against some of the supercars. Then the watching public wouldn't think that Rally cars are that impressive, and we can't have that. If they were to do a test though, it would have to be a Tarmac car; i.e Xsara.

[sasamsa]

I heard that group b cars had faster acceleration on gravel than f1 on tarmac at that time from 0 to 100km/h

[White Sauron]

Yes, I agree that rallycars are in their elements on gravel, but not on tarmac. I'm sure that such supercars as Enzo are faster on the circuit than the Focus or the C4. But I doubt Ferrari or Lamborghini can be anywhere close to rally cars on gravel stages.

[Magnus]

If you take a WRC and put it on a normal gravelstage, NO other car built til´this day will be faster.
On tarmac it is another deal, of course, there are some cars the will outshine them, and as you can se on http://rejsa.nu/superstage/ there are two M3s and one porsche 911. These are however modified vehicles.
The superstage is rather slow though. On a proper F1 cicuit, the WRC would be left far behiond. Topspeeds at the superstage aproaches around 200 k for the fastest cars as far as i remeber.
The fastest original car on this circuit is the Lamborghini Gallardo @ 520hp/510nm and 2,8kg/hp. Its time was 1,23,57 (cars owner driving), the ford had 1,22,9 (cod...)
Just behind the Ford in the standings is the Audi A2 from 1981 with 475hp/???nm. It´s time 1,23,2

[Flyinglex]

>seem to remember hearing, quite a while ago, that during the Grp B era >someone took a Delta S4 in tarmac spec around a circuit (Estoril I think) >and it would have qualified 5th in that years Grand Prix! (not sure how true >this is)

As i remember it was pug205. I saw somebody (probably alen) was talking about that in clip about gr b.
For wrc cars there should be "disrestricted" drives just cuz pagani haven't got such things. The other feature is gearbox. WRcar can reach not more than 210 kph with overscrewing engine, so think it should be prepared for such circuit.

[Magnus]

From http://www.stormloader.com/groupb/index.html
" Henri Toivonen drove an S4 around Estoril, the Portuguese Grand Prix circuit, so quickly that he would have qualified sixth for the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix."

[1LM1]

Yes, I agree that rallycars are in their elements on gravel, but not on tarmac. I'm sure that such supercars as Enzo are faster on the circuit than the Focus or the C4. But I doubt Ferrari or Lamborghini can be anywhere close to rally cars on gravel stages.


Forget about gravel !
A Citroën C4 (or Focus) is much much faster than an Enzo on a TARMAC stage (whichever one).

[White Sauron]

Forget about gravel !
A Citroën C4 (or Focus) is much much faster than an Enzo on a TARMAC stage (whichever one).

On stage - probably, on a circuit - no.

[SubaruNorway]

Come on lets write a letter to Top Gear suggesting that they test a new age wrc against a new age super car. I bet a Enzo, Zonda ore a Murceliago woulden't stand a chance around the Top Gear test track. With the budget they are running this season i don't think its a problem.

http://www.finalgear.com/shows/topgear/

[1LM1]

Come on lets write a letter to Top Gear suggesting that they test a new age wrc against a new age super car. I bet a Enzo, Zonda ore a Murceliago woulden't stand a chance around the Top Gear test track

Agree.

[Daniel]

Come on lets write a letter to Top Gear suggesting that they test a new age wrc against a new age super car. I bet a Enzo, Zonda ore a Murceliago woulden't stand a chance around the Top Gear test track. With the budget they are running this season i don't think its a problem.

http://www.finalgear.com/shows/topgear/
A WRCar stands absolutely no chance against a modern supercar on a track like the TG track.

[SubaruNorway]

The impreza is a whole second faster from 0-60mph
and i think a Rally car has a perfect gear ratio for the TG track not least i can cut the corners without falling apart :D

http://www.andersgrondal.com/
http://www.ferrari-forsale.com/Enzo-2003/Stats

[Daniel]

Acceleration is not everything. At some point the Impreza stops accelerating and the supercar goes straight past.

[SubaruNorway]

But the TG track doesen't have high speed sections

[Magnus]

This is one of these bneautiful endless discussions ;)
Unless we have access to some advanced programming devices, will will have to wait for the real test to draw any conclusions. We know that:
The WRC is the quicker on slow tracks
The supercar is the quicker on fast one.
Somewhere they change places, and we can never tell exactly att what point (or circuit) that happens.

[Daniel]

But the TG track doesen't have high speed sections
Have you been watching the same top gear that we get in the UK? :confused:

[Iskald]

From http://www.stormloader.com/groupb/index.html
" Henri Toivonen drove an S4 around Estoril, the Portuguese Grand Prix circuit, so quickly that he would have qualified sixth for the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix."

This is an old story - or call it myth if you like - that never has been officially confirmed. And I certainly don`t believe it for a second. Unless there was pouring rain (or even better, snow...) and fog Toivonens Lancia wouldn`t stand a chance at Estoril against a Formula 1 car. Top speed for F1 at Estoril (even in 86) was above 300 km/h. For the Lancia Delta S4, perhaps 220 km/h. The F1 car reaches speeds of up to or more than 300 km/h at least three times during a lap, and it`s not exactly very slow through corners, either. There is no way Toivonens S4 could have matched that.

The mythbusters should have taken a look into this, because this old story is simply to good to be true...

[Flyinglex]

For the Lancia Delta S4, perhaps 220 km/h.

Well, it depends on gearbox only.

One thing is to compare Zondas and RS WRC on TGtrack and another to look on them on oninpohja. WRcars should be rebuilded to completely tarmac version to make competition fair.

[SubaruNorway]

Have you been watching the same top gear that we get in the UK? :confused:

Ok it's fast but i don't think they reach much more than 200kph

Il write a letter refering to this post and then we will see im sure they are willing to try it

[turves]

Does anyone have any idea of the length of the TG track? We could then get an average speed and would have some idea...

[Gard]

Agree with Iskald, that Estoril story is just stupid. An F1 would be closer to half the time of the rally car. A WRC car would at best even cars like Porsche GT3 or the likes. These cars are seriously outpaced by F1. Must be something like 10s/km on a normal racing track.

[Doon]

I wrote an email to them last season and had with no response! but if enough people suggest it.....

[Viking]

My bet is on.....WRC car :up:

Best time currently is the Koenigsegg CCX (Swedish version of Il Tempo Gigante :D ) at 1.17.6
The closest thing to a rally car must be the Mitsubishi Evo FQ 400 at
1.24.8

A full spec WRC car must be 7 sec faster than the road running Evo or... :rolleyes:

[andyg07]

Agree with Iskald, that Estoril story is just stupid. An F1 would be closer to half the time of the rally car. A WRC car would at best even cars like Porsche GT3 or the likes. These cars are seriously outpaced by F1. Must be something like 10s/km on a normal racing track.


It is true about the rally car in estoril being only 4 seconds slower than the f1 car. You can see Hannu Mikkola talking about it on the audi channel. The programme its on is called Quattro a rally legend. Check out sky digital channel 884

[StevoEvo]

I know this isn't directly relevant to the WRC, but I have always wondered how a WRC car would do round the Top Gear test track and why they have never put one round it, anyone know why? The main reason they should is cos that the car is road legal and joe bloggs (a rich joe bloggs) could go out and buy one and drive it anywhere they want! Anyway it would be nice to see something wipe the floor with that thing with the silly, long name!

I would be curious as to what time the WRC would clock!
I also cannot see why they would,nt want to run this WRC feature, as they did it with a Renault F1 car
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/86864/renault_f1_car_topgear/

[Daniel]

My bet is on.....WRC car :up:

Best time currently is the Koenigsegg CCX (Swedish version of Il Tempo Gigante :D ) at 1.17.6
The closest thing to a rally car must be the Mitsubishi Evo FQ 400 at
1.24.8

A full spec WRC car must be 7 sec faster than the road running Evo or... :rolleyes:
Yes but the Evo has a far higher top speed of 175mph and doesn't have a 32mm restrictor, has just about as much torque. The Evo was made to go fast on the road/track. A WRCar is specifically built to go fast on a rally stage. It wouldn't surprise me if the FQ-400 was faster than a WRCar on the TG circuit.

[Captain VXR]

I wonder if Top Gear could do a feature on Group B cars with all the evolutions of Audi Quattrohttp://www.stormloader.com/groupb/photos/audi.jpghttp://www.stormloader.com/groupb/photos/snowy.jpg, RS1700T, RS200, 240RS, Celica Twin Cam, the never competed MR2, 911, 959, Stratos (not really a Group B car but almost as wild), 037, Delta Q4, 205 T16, Metro 6R4, R5 Turbo, Ascona 400, Manta 400, BX4 TC and get the team to make a Clio V6 into a Group B car

[StevoEvo]

[quote="turves"]The old versus new feature was an Escort Mk1 against a roadgoing Focus RS, and there was a Quattro against a roadgoing Mitsu Evo (VII I think), both rally cars lost!!!

I think I can remember the rally audi vs the Evo. Didnt they use an 83 long wheel model?
Would have liked to see how an 84 short wheel would do, or even better lets see a S1 against an Evo X...... :lips:
This clip from the old top gear has the 2 road going models
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoyxwWeFiP8

[turves]

Didnt they use an 83 long wheel model?

Yes, they did. It was probably one of the slower cars they could've used. It would've been good to see either a Quattro S1, Delta S4 or 205 T16 Evo2 against the Mitsubishi, the result would've been a lot closer.

[Flyinglex]

Could someone possibly write where TGtrack results can be founded?

[Doon]

I'm sorry but if the road going Mitsubishi Evo 6 was up against a proper S1 or T16 rally car it wouldn't have been close at all, they would both eat the Evo for breakfast!

[SubaruNorway]

Could someone possibly write where TGtrack results can be founded?

Here you are http://www.topgear.com/content/tgonbbc2/laptimes/thestig/

[jonas_mcrae]

I remember Top Gear featuring colin in the Focus in Silverstone, sliding all over the curves, looked very fast! but was beaten by the f1

[Flyinglex]

Thank u Subarunorway.
Look at monte results. WRX STI has aprox the same speed as N4 car. And here we can see difference of 11secs between WRC and N4 .http://www.wrc.com/page/StageTimes/0,,10111~200712,00.html
But there was hairpin and length of MC sss was 2.8kilometers
So i think possible for wrc to top the list/

[Doon]

Good point Flyinglex. I reckon there must be something better in terms of speed (mostly cornering speed) about the N4 when compared to a road going WRX STI, considering the price difference of about £60,000. I know the rally cars are built for a bumpy, if not car damaging road and not a race track, but i still reckon an N4 would be quicker than a road car. So yes the WRC car may have a chance! how long is the TG test track?

[Doon]

Does anyone remember the Stig driving a couple of 911's (one 4wd, one rwd) round the Millenium Stadium before the Cardiff SS in 2005? I heard that the 911's were about 10 secs slower than the best WRC car time set by Miggins. Anyone know exactly what time the 911's set?

[Jaanus]

I have that show on tape where they test the 2 911 on Cardiff super special. The times were:

2WD 911 1:12.0
4WD 911 1:11.5

I don't know what time Higgins set that year to win it, but last year Macus Grönholm won the stage with 1:01.5. But to be fair, the 911 is not really a supercar.

[SubaruNorway]

Fift Gear testing the Impreza

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/fee17f0f-b01b-44e2-8097-98db0114c126.htm

[jso1985]

and the Cardiff SSS was an extremly twisty track, perfectly matched for WRC cars.
Rally cars in general aren't made for long straights, so I really doubt they can beat a supercar on a normal circuit.
As for the 1986 Estoril story, really need proofs to believe that, the track's main straight is about 1km lenght and F1 cars reached easliy more than 300 km/h there

[cut the b.s.]

Good point Flyinglex. I reckon there must be something better in terms of speed (mostly cornering speed) about the N4 when compared to a road going WRX STI, considering the price difference of about £60,000. I know the rally cars are built for a bumpy, if not car damaging road and not a race track, but i still reckon an N4 would be quicker than a road car. So yes the WRC car may have a chance! how long is the TG test track?

I was talking to a top GpN driver recently, he said his standard road going Evo was faster than his rally one!! Wouldnt last long in a forest though.

[Daniel]

I was talking to a top GpN driver recently, he said his standard road going Evo was faster than his rally one!! Wouldnt last long in a forest though.
Yes. People don't seem to get this though.....

[SubaruNorway]

Of cours a Evo would do like 250kph as it doesen't have a restrictor and high ratio gearbox but the N4 has a different cpu and low ratio gearbox so on a track like Monte Carlo sss i think the N4 is faster

[pentti]

Henry himself told me about this Estoril test that he would have been 5th in F1 grid but you have to remember that he was comparing both car types in wet. I still not believed then and now.But maybe he was.
I once tested T 16 evo with 5th wheel attached on back to record accurate for Autocar mag. From standing start on dry tarmac it took 2,7 seconds to reach 60 miles/hour, which at time were some 0,2 second faster than F1. But I never got perfect start. Either too much wheel spin or not enough. Over 500 horse power was too much for me. When you changed to 6th gear fiber class doors started open little and you could see road under the doors. No protection but the biggest problem was to be able to change gears quick enough. I mean in that type run i had to change in H-pattern from 1st to 3rd under total time of 2,7 seconds!
The car I would like to see in TG so called track would be Rod Millen,s Toyota truck, which he used in Pikes Peaks. Over 800 horses, 4wd, big wings and light. Eat your heart out super cars!

[WRCfan]

Remember everyone it's not how fast you go around the track but how sideways you do it and how much rubber is left planted on the track (evil grin breaks out)

[janneppi]

Isn't that drifting, the ski ballet of motorsports? ;)

[Daniel]

Isn't that drifting, the ski ballet of motorsports? ;)
:laugh: Sooooooo true. Drifting is the most useless "sport" in the world after Drifting, Drifting and Drifting.

[Iskald]

Henry himself told me about this Estoril test that he would have been 5th in F1 grid but you have to remember that he was comparing both car types in wet. I still not believed then and now.But maybe he was.
I once tested T 16 evo with 5th wheel attached on back to record accurate for Autocar mag. From standing start on dry tarmac it took 2,7 seconds to reach 60 miles/hour, which at time were some 0,2 second faster than F1. But I never got perfect start. Either too much wheel spin or not enough. Over 500 horse power was too much for me. When you changed to 6th gear fiber class doors started open little and you could see road under the doors. No protection but the biggest problem was to be able to change gears quick enough. I mean in that type run i had to change in H-pattern from 1st to 3rd under total time of 2,7 seconds!
The car I would like to see in TG so called track would be Rod Millen,s Toyota truck, which he used in Pikes Peaks. Over 800 horses, 4wd, big wings and light. Eat your heart out super cars!

Maybe it had snowed on Estoril, pentti?

Your story about the T16 just goes to show that the Group B cars were awesome "creatures" anyhow. And scary too I believe. There was a lot of Ford RS200 cars in Norway during the glory days of rallycross (after Groub B were banned from rallying). Martin Schanche ran a 2.2 litre version believed to have around 700 hp. But the safety features in the car, the roll cage etc., was ridiculous. I don`t know if the ground was visible in 6th gear in the Ford, but it probably was. Group B cars will forever stay as the icons of rallying, but as story also reminds us, they were deadly machines.