Michael Schumacher will destroy Nico Rosberg next season

[Shalafi]

Tosh! You don't get to be a 7 times champ without being special, and it devalues Nico's achievements to suggest otherwise.

Im not so sure... What is special? Maybe there were some 5+ drivers in Schumis time who could of done the same with the best car and nr. 1 status...

[Sonic]

Im not so sure... What is special? Maybe there were some 5+ drivers in Schumis time who could of done the same with the best car and nr. 1 status...

:D You are joking right? Mika, maybe. But he wasn't motivated for more than 2 titles.

[Shalafi]

:D You are joking right? Mika, maybe. But he wasn't motivated for more than 2 titles.

Mika would have won third in a row but Mercedes engine blowed up...then he lost his motivation.. Well, yeah, part of this is a joke, but not all.. :)

Maybe Schumi never was so great.

Maybe Schumi was never out of F1 for 3 years and 41 years old before would be a more realistic statement.

[Shalafi]

Maybe Schumi was never out of F1 for 3 years and 41 years old before would be a more realistic statement.

Just excuses..he obviously thought that he could come back and dominate..which wasnt the case. Its eating him at the moment, Im sure of it.

[markabilly]

well he seems to be the last of the two major Merc teams in Q'ing again....but at least he beat out Sutile :D

[rohanweb]

the purpose of this bet doesnt addup to any commonsense, to the least given the age gaps you cannot compare drivers from different generations it seems,

[i_max2k2]

A very unexpected result, it looked like he was closing the gap with each race, I hope that negative criticism is not eating him up, lets see what happens tomorrow.

[ioan]

Funny how some people are more concerned about MS performance than the man himself and his real fans.

[F1boat]

Funny how some people are more concerned about MS performance than the man himself and his real fans.

To me it's sad to see some people, obviously abused by the dominance which Michael enjoyed, now jumping with pathetic glee at one unsuccessful comeback. The fact is that Michael is the most successful driver in history and made numerous special performances which will stand the test of time. Fact is also that he made a big mistake with his return, just like Nigel Mansell once and his performance is definetly sub-par. So he is losing to a driver who in my opinion is not very special, but is driving very smart and very well. As I have said once, the situation for me is very similar to the 1999 season when Hill was suddenly much slower than Frentzen. Still, I consider that in his prime Hill was much better than Frentzen and Michael has showed in his career infinitely more than Rosberg.
And about Hakkinen - do you consider him to be that slower than the bunch of DTM drivers who owned him? Maybe he was not too special as well?
To me such glee only shows how much trauma Michael left on his haterz. And maybe some fans are hurt that their nation does not really have a driver in the grid...

[Retro Formula 1]

You make some good points F1 Boat.

Schumacher does galvanise opinion at the title of this thread suggests. People that were gleefully predicting Schumacher would destroy Rosberg are now incensed that the opposite is true and using every excuse under the sun.

For me, I am not happy or sad. I expected Rosberg to beat Schumacher over the course of a season. He's a quick peddler but not necessarily in the top flight. Michael is obviously past his prime and made a mistake returning but you can't blame him for giving it a go.

Whether his former success was emphasised by preferential treatment, better equipment or more "dubious" means is immaterial. Those answers will always be the subject of opinion. He has his record and probably needs to re-retire and make way for younger blood before he devalues his previous achievements.

So, it is classless to denigrate the most successful F1 driver of all time and perhaps it's time to move aside and be applauded rather than ridiculed.

[Shalafi]

To me it's sad to see some people, obviously abused by the dominance which Michael enjoyed, now jumping with pathetic glee at one unsuccessful comeback. The fact is that Michael is the most successful driver in history and made numerous special performances which will stand the test of time. Fact is also that he made a big mistake with his return, just like Nigel Mansell once and his performance is definetly sub-par. So he is losing to a driver who in my opinion is not very special, but is driving very smart and very well. As I have said once, the situation for me is very similar to the 1999 season when Hill was suddenly much slower than Frentzen. Still, I consider that in his prime Hill was much better than Frentzen and Michael has showed in his career infinitely more than Rosberg.
And about Hakkinen - do you consider him to be that slower than the bunch of DTM drivers who owned him? Maybe he was not too special as well?
To me such glee only shows how much trauma Michael left on his haterz. And maybe some fans are hurt that their nation does not really have a driver in the grid...

You cant compare DTM and F1..different class.Like MS seems not to be very good at motorcycling even if you think he is best ever... Obviously MS made a mistake coming back because he thought that he could still dominate. And dont underestimate Rosberg..with inferior car he today beat Massa and Mclarens and is doing a wonderful job all the time. Fact is that todays Schumacher shouldnt be in Mercedes, for example both Lotus drivers would beat him easily in equal cars...As for me, I thought it was brave thing for MS to come back and if he would have beaten Rosberg I would really have appreciate him. But now, maybe he never was so special...

[BDunnell]

Just excuses..he obviously thought that he could come back and dominate..which wasnt the case.

Is there any evidence for that assertion at all? I think not.

[BDunnell]

Funny how some people are more concerned about MS performance than the man himself and his real fans.

Are you saying that he's not that concerned about his own performance, then? That would be strange if so.

[Robinho]

someone made an interesting statement on BBC coverage earlier - perhaps for Michael, all he needs is to be back and in the sport. that gives him the rush, just to be racing the best again

[ArrowsFA1]

someone made an interesting statement on BBC coverage earlier - perhaps for Michael, all he needs is to be back and in the sport. that gives him the rush, just to be racing the best again
I don't see Michael Schumacher as coming back just to make up the numbers. He's there to win and if that doesn't happen...?

[F1boat]

You cant compare DTM and F1..different class.Like MS seems not to be very good at motorcycling even if you think he is best ever... Obviously MS made a mistake coming back because he thought that he could still dominate. And dont underestimate Rosberg..with inferior car he today beat Massa and Mclarens and is doing a wonderful job all the time. Fact is that todays Schumacher shouldnt be in Mercedes, for example both Lotus drivers would beat him easily in equal cars...As for me, I thought it was brave thing for MS to come back and if he would have beaten Rosberg I would really have appreciate him. But now, maybe he never was so special...

Modern F1 cars are also quite different to the ones Michael used to drive. And in my opinion to judge him for his performance now is like to judge Michael Jordan for his also unsuccessful comeback and not for his years in Bulls.
About Rosberg, as I said, he is doing a fine job, but I am not sure that he is very special. Frentzen had a brilliant 1999 season, but was he special? And today the Merc GP was very fast IMO, actually faster than the Ferrari.

[Shalafi]

I don't see Michael Schumacher as coming back just to make up the numbers. He's there to win and if that doesn't happen...?

I agree.

[F1boat]

If it doesn't happen, he quits and stays as a 7 time World Champion, who made a very brave mistake after the zenith of his career.

[P3ws]

To me its embarrassing that Michael is losing to an average driver like Rosberg.

When in his career did Rosberg show he was average?
I can´t think of a single race. With what he has had to drive he did very well. And his first win is due in any race now. If Merc can keep up with development and get closer to the 3 other top teams, they all better watch out.
Rosberg is fast, smart, consistent and will be a contender for the WDC im sure.

[BDunnell]

If it doesn't happen, he quits and stays as a 7 time World Champion, who made a very brave mistake after the zenith of his career.

Which would be fair enough, and not worthy of criticism.

[steveaki13]

If you look at Michaels career first time around, in many of the seasons it was old style racing, in as much as 2 or 3 teams dominated the racing and nowadays the cars are all much closer.
In 2000 for example he could have an off day and finish 3rd behind the two Mclarens, or in 2004 just behind Barrichello if Rubens had a good day.
Now a bad day can leave you 8th or lower being hustled by midfield teams.
In the earlier days of his career a top 3 or 4 drivers could pit after 10-15 laps and be way clear of the pack.
Now cars like Force India's and Renaults as well as top 4 teams pass you if you make an unscheduled stop and its pretty tough to come back through the field. So maybe you get stuck in 10th.

For example only ever 2 or 3 cars battled up front in the earlier days where as now 10-12 cars are in and around the points.
1994-1995: Williams and Benetton plus odd Ferrari challenge
1996-1997: Ferrari and Williams plus odd Benetton Challenge
1998-2000: Ferrari and mclaren plus odd Jordan Challenge
2001-2003: Ferrari, Williams & Mclaren odd Renault Challenge
2004: Ferrari
2005: Renault and Mclaren
2006: Ferrari and Renault Odd Mclaren Challenge.

2010: Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, Mclaren, Renault and Force India all around the points on a similar pace.

[jens]

This is a bit mystifying, why have some started concentrating on Schumacher's past. If Lauda, Stewart or Prost were brought back into F1 today, they would be capable of doing nothing. But that doesn't mean they were useless in the past.


Still, I consider that in his prime Hill was much better than Frentzen

I'm not so sure about that. Frentzen's 99 season may well have been better than any of Hill's seasons even in his prime.

[BDunnell]

This is a bit mystifying, why have some started concentrating on Schumacher's past. If Lauda, Stewart or Prost were brought back into F1 today, they would be capable of doing nothing. But that doesn't mean they were useless in the past.

It depends on the success of the comeback. When Lauda made his, there was clearly no reason for anyone to wonder about his ability — he won very soon. When Alan Jones made his, all anyone could do was wonder why, and reflect on the driver he had once been. To the outside observer, Schumacher at present falls somewhere between the two.

[F1boat]

This is a bit mystifying, why have some started concentrating on Schumacher's past. If Lauda, Stewart or Prost were brought back into F1 today, they would be capable of doing nothing. But that doesn't mean they were useless in the past.



I'm not so sure about that. Frentzen's 99 season may well have been better than any of Hill's seasons even in his prime.

Well, I have a soft spot for Hill and consider him to be very good. He was an interesting rival to Michael. Frentzen was good, but more solid than fast, and Nico resembles him IMO.
Which in some circumstances may be enough.

[F1boat]

It depends on the success of the comeback. When Lauda made his, there was clearly no reason for anyone to wonder about his ability — he won very soon. When Alan Jones made his, all anyone could do was wonder why, and reflect on the driver he had once been. To the outside observer, Schumacher at present falls somewhere between the two.

Didn't know about Allan. What happened?

[jens]

It depends on the success of the comeback. When Lauda made his, there was clearly no reason for anyone to wonder about his ability — he won very soon. When Alan Jones made his, all anyone could do was wonder why, and reflect on the driver he had once been. To the outside observer, Schumacher at present falls somewhere between the two.

But Lauda and Jones were much younger than Schumi during comeback, so that's not a valid comparison. If we want to compare Schumi's comeback to someone, let's choose Mansell.

[BDunnell]

But Lauda and Jones were much younger than Schumi during comeback, so that's not a valid comparison. If we want to compare Schumi's comeback to someone, let's choose Mansell.

What has age got do with it? Different drivers achieve different levels of ability at different ages. Performance and results are the more relevant comparison.

[BDunnell]

Didn't know about Allan. What happened?

Jones first came back with Arrows, who, he said, promised him the earth and then didn't deliver; he subsequently signed a deal with the Beatrice/Haas team, and scored a handful of points over the 1985-86 seasons, but for the most part disappointed. To be fair, the car was very underwhelming. None of this, to me, takes away from Jones' earlier achievements.

[jens]

What has age got do with it? Different drivers achieve different levels of ability at different ages. Performance and results are the more relevant comparison.

Age has a role in sports. We don't see 50-year-old people hunting world records, do we? Maybe except in some less physical disciplines, like shooting.

[BDunnell]

Age has a role in sports. We don't see 50-year-old people hunting world records, do we? Maybe except in some less physical disciplines, like shooting.

Of course it has a role, an important one, but it isn't the sole defining factor as to whether someone is successful or not.

[ioan]

Is there any evidence for that assertion at all? I think not.

You are right, there is none.


Are you saying that he's not that concerned about his own performance, then? That would be strange if so.

That's exactly what I am saying. He didn't expect to dominate and he also knows why he isn't doing better at this moment. And most probably he is also working hard to improve the bits that need to be improved.

I am as big a fan of MS as there can be, without believing that he has got some god powers, and I am not at all concerned by his showing.

[ioan]

I don't see Michael Schumacher as coming back just to make up the numbers. He's there to win and if that doesn't happen...?

Then he'll try harder, that's what he did before that's what he'll do now.
I believe that he is in it for the challenge and not for the wins. If he would be in F1 just for the wins than the pleasure would be little or none after winning 90+ races, however the challenge is there day in and out. Just my opinion.

[OutRun]

About Rosberg, as I said, he is doing a fine job, but I am not sure that he is very special. Frentzen had a brilliant 1999 season, but was he special? And today the Merc GP was very fast IMO, actually faster than the Ferrari.

Rosberg added something 'special' to grab a second row position. It seems facetious to claim that when Rosberg has a good showing it is because the car is suddenly in the top two. The majority opinion has been that Mercedes was definitely the fourth best team. This is the first time this season that I have heard of Mercedes being faster than Ferrari. :confused:

[i_max2k2]

I started watching f1 pretty late compared to most here, I think one of the first F-1 races that I saw was Spa 96, and I instantly became a schumi fan, after that year, I have tried watching as many as races as I could, and I really felt he had something special which even these days is hard to see.

I still think its pretty early into his comeback, I feel that after say mid season or so, we should look into his performance, if the rumors about mercedes are true, i.e. they will freeze development of the car, if W01 is not a WDC contender, than a true gauge of his performance will only come next year - coz in that case, he'd have had a lot of input in next years car, perhaps making it more suitable to his driving style.

I believe Lauda won his first championship after his comeback in the 3rd yr, and someone mentioned that he was actually young when he made his comeback, schumi is not, but I think 3 yrs is not too many for a guy who literally defined F-1 fitness levels in his time, and has always been fit. He has been a fighter never stopping to up his level, so I think he will go for atleast one WDC, in 3 yrs, and I'd expect him to notch up wins around mid season, given the car progresses enough.

[Roamy]

Everyone that has been here for a while know I am not a MS fan. However I do not expect him to close the gap until some time in Europe. It is about a 8 race deal to even get close to some respectable times. Plus these are new cars for MS while NR has experience in them and will get faster as he learns the Mercedes. MS has two things to catch up on while NR only has one. Sit tight and see if it comes back.

[Roamy]

Ok - Now you guys better get your ass over to renault and get TAD. Your boy looked like Sh!t. He looked like a guy who needs illegal TC.

[Garry Walker]

That was sad to watch I have to say. He was overtaken by others all day long and much slower than Rosberg. Very dissapointing performance.

[Dave B]

That was indeed heartbreaking to watch, his defence of Lewis aside.

[AndyL]

That was indeed heartbreaking to watch, his defence of Lewis aside.

That battle against Lewis was a little glimpse of what we'd hoped to see this season wasn't it.

[ShiftingGears]

In his defence, he would often be slower in qualifying and make some amazing last minute changes before the race and improve the car. It seems with the regulation changes, that window for improvement has closed.
How the FIA expects more passing when cars slower in qualifying are even more likely to be slower than those in front of them in the race, is anyones guess.

[Dave B]

That battle against Lewis was a little glimpse of what we'd hoped to see this season wasn't it.
Hell yeah! :D

[F1boat]

That was sad to watch I have to say. He was overtaken by others all day long and much slower than Rosberg. Very dissapointing performance.

I agree :(

[Robinho]

like i said in the chat - the old boy might have lost a bit of his speed, but none of his race craft, unfortunately his race craft alone is not enough, he needs to find more speed to go with it. Rosberg was in a different race to him today, in conditions that usually we are used to Michael excelling in.

[Robinho]

oh, and he definately won't destroy Rosberg this year

[Zico]

Despite never being his greatest fan, I actually feel sorry for him, this must be so deflating for him. Its so hard to believe that this is the same man who was so dominant in previous years... is it due to the car not being developed exclusively by him to suit his style, have the car reg differences from the cars of his era severely hampered him, has he lost some pace from being out for the few years.. or just older and slower.?

Or... all of the above?

[Jag_Warrior]

Even though I don't care for Schumacher, I do have great respect for his accomplishments. But today's performance isn't what I expected to see from the (one time) rainmeister.

Still, I've always believed what I've often said here: in order to be a somebody, you have to beat a somebody.

Unfortunately, Michael created a whole bunch of somebodies today. Schumacher's race kind of reminded me of the final Ali fights that I saw: :blackeye: Hopefully he improves or he's going to tarnish a fine reputation. I don't like him but I don't really want to see that.

[Daniel]

like i said in the chat - the old boy might have lost a bit of his speed, but none of his race craft, unfortunately his race craft alone is not enough, he needs to find more speed to go with it. Rosberg was in a different race to him today, in conditions that usually we are used to Michael excelling in.
As Leggard rather comically failed to understand today it seems to be setup. Michael was getting tonnes of wheelspin and not just because of tyres.

[steveaki13]

I was also sad to see Michael struggle so much, but I am still with him and believe he will have a better race in Spain.
Maybe not enough to challenge Rosberg but better than China.

[pino]

Michael is done :(

[Daniel]

Michael is done :(
Bah, I can't believe you're saying this Pino, lets give the guy a chance to get up to speed and also have some actual input into the car....

[ioan]

As Leggard rather comically failed to understand today it seems to be setup. Michael was getting tonnes of wheelspin and not just because of tyres.

The rear axle was not loaded properly. Big set up problems there. Still he did great against Hamilton while Roseberg was nowhere against Button's first overtaking attempt.

The old fox still has good racing in him, I will not crucify him like his so called fans are doing it right now.

[fandango]

I wouldn't write him off yet. These fly-away races were all going to be the same - either good or bad. In this case they've been bad. I would wait until a few European races have gone past before making a judgement.

However, MS does look a little like the old guy who wants to hang out with the young lads and pretend he's still one of them. The fact that he looks kind of sheepish and embarrassed makes him look more human. If he's still way off Rosberg's pace in Barcelona, where he has tested a lot, then I'd say his time has passed.

[Ranger]

Probably the best racecraft out of anyone today. :up:

Unfortunately he had no pace to go with it. :down:

I honestly do want him to get back on the ball. He is looking like Damon Hill in 1999. Not good.

[pino]

Bah, I can't believe you're saying this Pino, lets give the guy a chance to get up to speed and also have some actual input into the car....

I meant done as top driver, he will still score points but will not be a title contender...unfortunately :( It's the age Daniel, nothing else ;)

[Daniel]

The rear axle was not loaded properly. Big set up problems there. Still he did great against Hamilton while Roseberg was nowhere against Button's first overtaking attempt.

The old fox still has good racing in him, I will not crucify him like his so called fans are doing it right now.
I agree. His racecraft as Mallen said was fantastic as well. He just didn't have the car underneath him.

[Daika]

Rosberg is better than Schumacher. No point in denieding or even hoping it is otherwise. It is early game but judging from this race, i won't put Schumacher in a car. 2 sec offpace is unacceptable. He made all the correct pittstops, but what he gains he lost by his driving. It is just sad watching Schumacher in the light of his former glory.

[ioan]

It is just sad watching Schumacher in the light of his former glory.

If you place him in the right context there is nothing sad about it, really. I would be overjoyed if he won straight ahead but I kept the expectations realistic and everything is OK IMO.

[Daika]

If you place him in the right context there is nothing sad about it, really. I would be overjoyed if he won straight ahead but I kept the expectations realistic and everything is OK IMO.

I watch the race with live timings from formula1.com. Really 2 secs!!!! I don't see the context. I just don't understand why with the same car Rosberg is killing him.

[ShiftingGears]

I watch the race with live timings from formula1.com. Really 2 secs!!!! I don't see the context. I just don't understand why with the same car Rosberg is killing him.

Schumacher is still coming to grips with the car, and after qualifying, he couldn't change the car. He was a bit doomed after saturday, really.

[steveaki13]

Yer I mean in terms of team calls and tyre stops he judged most well.
2 or 3 times Michael was passed on track by Vettel, Webber and Co and twice he regained the positions when the tyre changes came around. Just a shame he had no pace to keep them behind.

[Dave B]

Is Rosberg just a hell of a lot better than we give him credit for? He blew Nakajima away at Williams and most of us simply assumed that the Japanese driver was a bit crap, but now he's enjoying similar superiority ofer Schumacher maybe we've been doing Nico a dis-service all this time.

[Daika]

Is Rosberg just a hell of a lot better than we give him credit for? He blew Nakajima away at Williams and most of us simply assumed that the Japanese driver was a bit crap, but now he's enjoying similar superiority ofer Schumacher maybe we've been doing Nico a dis-service all this time.

Rosberg got the results to show it but i never really notice him. He doesn't get into trouble and drives away into the top 5. I guess like Schumacher in the Ferrari days. In contrast Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Vettel overtakes like madmen.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Rosberg seems to be like his father-fast, consistent, and often under the radar.

and he's in with a championship shout. surely he couldnt do something similar to his dad?

[Robinho]

i think Rosberg is performing beter than we thought, Michael slightly worse, the combination of the 2 making it look worse.

unlike others, however, i'm not sure Michael is going to get much quicker. he's obviously lost a little of his ultimate speed, and in a good car he'll still be up there, but i'm not convinced its something that he can recover.

its a pity, but probably a fact of life that with his age he has lost some of that edge that made him special. he may get a bot back in parts, but probably not ofr a whole race weekend, and with the competitiveess of the field i don't think we'll see him winning again.

then again, maybe Merc will develop an amazing package over the season and he'll get better with confidence

[jens]

I don't like the endless excuses and talks like "let's give him time". In F1 driver is supposed to deliver on a consistent basis and especially at his age there is nothing to wait. With every passing year performing at the top level is going to be only more difficult. And this is Schumacher we are talking about. Why is he considered a legend? Because he used to be super-adaptable, he used to drive everything fast, he used to drive around problems, he used to excel in changeable conditions. A hard car to drive and tricky weather conditions? Well, such situations used to bring out the best of Michael in his prime. If anything, I excepted him to be good at least in the wet, but he isn't even that. And excuses about understeering car - well, top drivers are considered to adapt to anything, aren't they?! And MS is a legend, because he managed to drive all cars at the top level? I don't think he never had an understeering car before in his career. I suppose Schumacher can improve, but he won't go on to destroy Rosberg. At best he may start matching him. If Heidfeld was in the second Mercedes today, I think he would have finished somewhere around Rosberg's territory. Besides that Heidfeld still has something to prove in F1, which Schumacher hasn't.

[Daika]

If Heidfeld was in the second Mercedes today, I think he would have finished somewhere around Rosberg's territory. Besides that Heidfeld still has something to prove in F1, which Schumacher hasn't.

Good point about Heidfeld, that is what i meant by saying he is 2 sec of pace. Don't care who he is (schumacher is the reason why i got into F1), 2 sec off pace compare to his teammate is goodbye. It is not like when Rosberg is failing Schumacher is there to pick up the pieces, he is way back. This race really open up my mind about Schumacher's comeback. And back down the grind he is.

[ioan]

I don't like the endless excuses and talks like "let's give him time".

Not like you didn't say the same about Trulli for the last 4 seasons or so?! A bit of consistency would be better.

[jens]

Not like you didn't say the same about Trulli for the last 4 seasons or so?! A bit of consistency would be better.

Same for the last 4 seasons? Considering that you like statistics, I know that Trulli has outscored his team-mate for the last three seasons in a row. :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm guessing that Schumacher is as disappointed with his return so far as anyone else. Of course he needs time, but the more time that goes by the more that the pressure will mount on him and Mercedes, particularly if Rosberg continues his excellent form.

The reality is the car was capable of a podium today, but Schumacher only managed 10th.

[markabilly]

I'm guessing that Schumacher is as disappointed with his return so far as anyone else. Of course he needs time, but the more time that goes by the more that the pressure will mount on him and Mercedes, particularly if Rosberg continues his excellent form.

The reality is the car was capable of a podium today, but Schumacher only managed 10th.
I would love to say wrong, wrong and double wrong, but the objective results to date say MS better move it up a bunch, or he will not even be a good lapdog for Nico......

he might hate understeering cars but someone better fix it quick or the song will be his swan "baby, baby, I get down on my kness for you...if you only love me like you used to do...you've lost that loving feeling....."

[Shalafi]

MS is a moving chicane nowadays. He should give his place in Mercedes to someone who can drive a car.

MS is a moving chicane nowadays. He should give his place in Mercedes to someone who can drive a car.

Has your keyboard only got the letters "S", "H", "I" and "T" on it?, because that is all you type.

[Shalafi]

Has your keyboard only got the letters "S", "H", "I" and "T" on it?, because that is all you type.

Truth hurts. :D

[Roamy]

What happened to the "RainMeister" ? He looked a TAD slow :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[SGWilko]

Has your keyboard only got the letters "S", "H", "I" and "T" on it?, because that is all you type.

Hmmmm, Stack High In Transit, Kenny.

[markabilly]

Has your keyboard only got the letters "S", "H", "I" and "T" on it?, because that is all you type.
speaking of losing that loving feeling....

[donKey jote]

What happened to the "RainMeister" ? He looked a TAD slow :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
was he ever BIG in CHINa ?
:dozey:

[jens]

was he ever BIG in CHINa ?
:dozey:

Just to think about it - just 3,5 years ago Schumacher had a brilliant race in China, winning the Grand Prix in an inferior car in changing conditions. How much has changed...

[ioan]

MS is a moving chicane nowadays. He should give his place in Mercedes to someone who can drive a car.

Are you still frustrated because Kimi is rolling over every now and then in his Citroen.

[Shalafi]

Are you still frustrated because Kimi is rolling over every now and then in his Citroen.

Kimi is doing great job at the moment in a totally different sport. :) Unlike the old man...

[Roamy]

Yep and here it comes

Mercedes to replace Schu's chassis for Barcelona
Apr.18 (GMM) Michael Schumacher will not only have an upgraded car in Spain, it will also be a completely different chassis.

Mercedes' Norbert Haug suggested after the Chinese grand prix, where the seven time world champion was comprehensively beaten all weekend by his teammate, that the 41-year-old's actual chassis is carrying an inherent problem.

"I think we need to replace his chassis for Barcelona," Haug is quoted as saying by the German broadcaster Sky.

Nico Rosberg qualified the sister W01 seven tenths faster than Schumacher's, and then finished on the podium, nearly a minute ahead of his famous countryman.

"Don't worry: Michael has not forgotten how to drive," said Haug, after Niki Lauda slammed Schumacher's driving as "mediocre".

[Mia 01]

It was painful to watch MS today.

I don´t think either he or the team needs this shame.

[SGWilko]

that the 41-year-old's actual chassis is carrying an inherent problem.


Maybe the chassis needs a new driver, as the current one has an inherent problem?

[Dzeidzei]

Are you still frustrated because Kimi is rolling over every now and then in his Citroen.

Are you more frustrated about your boy Felipe being shown his place today or MS being slower than my grandma?

And FYI there are only 2 men on earth who have scored points both in F1 and WRC. Kimi being the other one.

[Jag_Warrior]

Maybe the chassis needs a new driver, as the current one has an inherent problem?

:rotflmao:

[Dzeidzei]

This race really open up my mind about Schumacher's comeback. And back down the grind he is.

The problem here are the truly religiouslike followers of MS. If Nico and MS had swapped places in the first 4 races, people would be yelling "The god is back" and literally wetting their pants. Now when reality hits them, its impossible to admit the opposite. In a way very understandable but even more its just sad.

The MS fans at the moment are like the optimistic kid who got a room full of siht for present. He started digging hard yelling "there must be a horse here somewhere!"

Sad to say in this case there is no horse.

[ojciec dyrektor]

Maybe it's time to change thread title to "When Heidfeld will replace Schumacher"

[F1boat]

The problem here are the truly religiouslike followers of MS. If Nico and MS had swapped places in the first 4 races, people would be yelling "The god is back" and literally wetting their pants. Now when reality hits them, its impossible to admit the opposite. In a way very understandable but even more its just sad.

The MS fans at the moment are like the optimistic kid who got a room full of siht for present. He started digging hard yelling "there must be a horse here somewhere!"

Sad to say in this case there is no horse.

The haterz are the only sad ones here, taking pleasure of a grave, but brave mistake, made by a very old driver.

[jens]

And FYI there are only 2 men on earth who have scored points both in F1 and WRC. Kimi being the other one.

Reutemann actually got podiums in early 80's in WRC.

[Dzeidzei]

The haterz are the only sad ones here, taking pleasure of a grave, but brave mistake, made by a very old driver.

Which mistake is that? The comeback?

[jens]

I don't think Schumacher made a mistake as such. I can understand that a driver is hungry for racing and wants to test himself, even with the knowledge that it may not work out in the end. It would be better to say that Mercedes made the mistake by wanting to sign him. Already back in 2006 I felt first signs of Schumacher's decline. 2010 was always going to be a long shot. It would have been great for F1 if he was in top form though.

[maximilian]

Despite what he may say, Schumacher has GOT to be under quite a bit of pressure by now, not being even CLOSE to Rosberg. Inherent problem with his chassis? Really? Has such a thing ever happened before?

I would say if he doesn't show significant improvement in the next 2 races (with the new chassis and upgrades), then it's seriously time to consider the comeback a failure. An organization like Mercedes will not be amused to pay him millions, and be content with him "having fun" during races. Results must follow NOW.

Rosberg is doing a great job. I always thought he would beat Michael, and I still say he is the real deal, and was underrated at Williams. Or rather, it was underrated how BAD the Williams was last year, and how impressive of him it was to keep scoring good points with it, outscoring his team mate 34½ points to NIL. Maybe Nakajima wasn't THAT bad, but Rosberg was THAT good!

[Robinho]

i wonder if his new chassis will incorporate some inherent magic that Rosbergs doesn't?

probably not, but nothing like a good conspiracy theory ;)

[F1boat]

Which mistake is that? The comeback?

Yes.

[goodf1fun]

Schumi has a lot of time to learn the new tyres and the new regulations , thats why he sign a 3 year deal.. there is no way they will replace him

The haterz are the only sad ones here, taking pleasure of a grave, but brave mistake, made by a very old driver.

Excellent post.

[markabilly]

i wonder if his new chassis will incorporate some inherent magic that Rosbergs doesn't?

;)
Yes,the magic will be no more understeer and heidfeld for a driver...... :D

[markabilly]

The haterz are the only sad ones here, taking pleasure of a grave, but brave mistake, made by a very old driver.
I figure we better have fun now, cause you never know if the old man might suddenly jump up out of the grave and start nailing it.... :vader:

[Jag_Warrior]

I figure we better have fun now, cause you never know if the old man might suddenly jump up out of the grave and start nailing it.... :vader:

He better do something quick. Otherwise the OP's a$$ could be in danger (by his own admission). :D

I think it's as some have suggested: Schumacher didn't come out of the box very well, and Nico didn't roll over and die... as some expected.

My great hope is that Michael's slow start will at least guarantee that talks of Ralf coming back will go away. If this is where Michael is, imagine how bad Ralf would be. :p :

[Mia 01]

I like MS, but now I feel sorry for him.

[Retro Formula 1]

When in his career did Rosberg show he was average?
I can´t think of a single race. With what he has had to drive he did very well. And his first win is due in any race now. If Merc can keep up with development and get closer to the 3 other top teams, they all better watch out.
Rosberg is fast, smart, consistent and will be a contender for the WDC im sure.

I don't think the Merc is too far off the pace. Rosberg is good for sure but not an Alonso or Hamilton yet he can qualify well and show excellent race pace. Just made some mistakes is all.

When you look at it like that, the Merc is capable of being at least a race winning car.

[F1boat]

Rosberg is good for sure but not an Alonso or Hamilton yet he can qualify well and show excellent race pace. Just made some mistakes is all.


I agree. On the other hand, if Ross hired him, maybe he can develop nicely.

[P3ws]

I don't think the Merc is too far off the pace. Rosberg is good for sure but not an Alonso or Hamilton yet he can qualify well and show excellent race pace. Just made some mistakes is all.

When you look at it like that, the Merc is capable of being at least a race winning car.

Well, in the hands of Rosberg it is not but in the hands of his teammate it is. RBs and the Maccas seems to be the fastest cars and very very closely followed by Ferrari.
That is how i see it. Rosberg is there in every race to cash in on mistakes made by the top teams. I think he is doing it brilliantly. Sure FA and LH was faster today in some parts of the race. But both of them almost overdrove their tires in the end. Button and Rosberg did no such thing. I suspect Button will do well since his driving style is suited to preserve tires, just like Rosberg. It is not a fluke that JB has two wins in my opinion. This tirepreserving drivingstyle will get them the upper hand in the long run. The WDC standings at the moment is also suggesting this might be the case.
If the Mercedes really at this point was such a good car i think MS would have done better by now. And both of them would have been qualifying better. The front row for Nico at Sepang was easier with no Ferraris and Maccas to compete for that spot.

Still waiting for Rosbergs first win.......

[Firstgear]

Seems even the best cheaters can't cheat Father Time.

[Roamy]

I figure we better have fun now, cause you never know if the old man might suddenly jump up out of the grave and start nailing it.... :vader:

I know it even makes it eerie. These lovers would be all over us like a bum on a baloney sandwich.


while I am surprised about today - if we haterz are correct then we were right all along. Now they are giving him a new chassis - I hope it is not coming from TAD's garage :)

[Roamy]

Seems even the best cheaters can't cheat Father Time.

Or maybe to can't cheat father TAD :)

[gm99]

Are you still frustrated because Kimi is rolling over every now and then in his Citroen.

After four races each in both the F1 and world rallye championships (who both use the same points system), Kimi actually scored more points (14) than Schumacher (10).
Just a thought, really ;)

[Sonic]

it seems odd where Schu seems to be loosing the time. Normally with older drivers its the high speed areas - they just loose their bottle. Or more truthfully they have to force themselves to be bold in the fast sections.

However, reports are mostly indicating an issue with traction exiting slower turns. Now this is find very strange, even in a drivers 70's or 80's you don't loose your "feel" for the grip vs acceleration so what is going on?

Well we are off to Spain next, a circuit that he should know better than almost anywhere, so we shall see what tricks the old dog has left to offer.

[Daniel]

it seems odd where Schu seems to be loosing the time. Normally with older drivers its the high speed areas - they just loose their bottle. Or more truthfully they have to force themselves to be bold in the fast sections.

However, reports are mostly indicating an issue with traction exiting slower turns. Now this is find very strange, even in a drivers 70's or 80's you don't loose your "feel" for the grip vs acceleration so what is going on?

Well we are off to Spain next, a circuit that he should know better than almost anywhere, so we shall see what tricks the old dog has left to offer.
It's obviously a setup problem that he had today. Looks like Nico might have been on a wet setup and Michael a dry one so Mercedes could hedge their bets

[Triumph]

I'm still hoping Michael will improve, but it's beginning to look as if he isn't going to live up to expectations.

At his best he could drive around any problems, so I don't think we can make excuses for him based on how his car is working. He should be matching Nico for pace at the very least.

He does seem quite happy with things though. I haven't given up on him yet.

[Daniel]

I'm still hoping Michael will improve, but it's beginning to look as if he isn't going to live up to expectations.

At his best he could drive around any problems, so I don't think we can make excuses for him based on how his car is working. He should be matching Nico for pace at the very least.

He does seem quite happy with things though. I haven't given up on him yet.
Just remember that these days you're choosing your race setup a day before the race which is just stupid.

[Triumph]

Yes, but they're all in the same situation, and I would expect Michael to excel at that kind of thing.

[harsha]

damn , where's the TC button when you want it

[F1boat]

Seems even the best cheaters can't cheat Father Time.

Only Zeus can do this, LOL.

[Dzeidzei]

Well we are off to Spain next, a circuit that he should know better than almost anywhere, so we shall see what tricks the old dog has left to offer.

So far he´s only been rolling over and dying.

[SGWilko]

i wonder if his new chassis will incorporate some inherent magic that Rosbergs doesn't?


Go faster stripes and fluffy dice should do the trick. Maybe dangle a picture of Hill & JV off a stick at the front.

[Dzeidzei]

Yep and here it comes

Mercedes to replace Schu's chassis for Barcelona
Apr.18 (GMM) Michael Schumacher will not only have an upgraded car in Spain, it will also be a completely different chassis.


80 Meuros, 2 chassis and they get one of them wrong? Some heads are gonna fall :)

[SGWilko]

If this is where Michael is, imagine how bad Ralf would be. :p :

More like; If this is where Michael is, imagine how bad Ralf would still be. :p :[/

[OutRun]

It's obviously a setup problem that he had today. Looks like Nico might have been on a wet setup and Michael a dry one so Mercedes could hedge their bets

If that was true I would have expected Schumacher to qualify better than Rosberg.

[ShiftingGears]

It's obviously a setup problem that he had today. Looks like Nico might have been on a wet setup and Michael a dry one so Mercedes could hedge their bets

Schumacher had a set-up which wasn't good in either conditions.

[jens]

It's obviously a setup problem that he had today. Looks like Nico might have been on a wet setup and Michael a dry one so Mercedes could hedge their bets

The setup talk isn't convincing, because Schumacher got a similar beating from Rosberg in dry qualifying as well.

[PitMarshal]

I seem to recall MS saying that he should be judged after four races. Well we've had four races, and so far he has been outqualified and outraced by his team-mate. Maybe you could argue that is down to 'chassis problems' (the main one being that the traction control has been left off) but you could also argue that he has, perhaps more worringly, struggled to beat or fend off drivers that in his heyday wouldn't have been on the same page of the timing sheets.
I think what happens from here is going to be dictated by Mercedes: are they happy with one of their drivers fighting in midpack, and if not do they have a replacement available that could do better?

[maximilian]

Who here thinks that if the "new chassis" turns out to be just as bad as the old one, the old master may suddenly get a case of "neck complications relapse", and "be advised by his doctors" to "discontinue his comeback due to urgent health reasons" so as to not "risk permanent injury to his neck and spine!" :cool:

[Sonic]

Well just in case that happens I shall bookmark your post and make sure you get full credit old bean. ;)

And if not we'll fwd this post to the I was wrong page! ;)

[maximilian]

And if not we'll fwd this post to the I was wrong page! ;)
In that case my defense will be that I was "merely asking who thinks" that this will happen! :D Which I was! ;)

[harsha]

how does the egg feel @ Garry Walker

[CaptainRaiden]

I think it's time to change the title of this thread to "Michael Schumacher is getting annihilated by Nico Rosberg this season".

I mean did I see the "rainmeister" stuck behind Sutil for who knows how many laps while everybody else ahead of him got past? Also, the "rainmeister" got owned in the wet by a newbie Russian driving a Renault, which is obviously inferior to the Mercedes. Well, the Mercedes looks like a better car in Rosberg's hands definitely.

Now waiting for Schumacher fans to come up with age and adaptability excuses. It's not like he jumped into the car straight in Shanghai. The "adaptability genius" had all the testing and 4 races to get used to the 2010 car. Well, now we all know how those Rory Byrne designed Ferraris made him look better than he really was.

[harsha]

Who here thinks that if the "new chassis" turns out to be just as bad as the old one, the old master may suddenly get a case of "neck complications relapse", and "be advised by his doctors" to "discontinue his comeback due to urgent health reasons" so as to not "risk permanent injury to his neck and spine!" :cool:

Schumacher's 1st excuse of getting out of F1....

[harsha]

However, reports are mostly indicating an issue with traction exiting slower turns. Now this is find very strange, even in a drivers 70's or 80's you don't loose your "feel" for the grip vs acceleration so what is going on?


where's TAD when you want it :D :D

[ArrowsFA1]

However, reports are mostly indicating an issue with traction exiting slower turns. Now this is find very strange, even in a drivers 70's or 80's you don't loose your "feel" for the grip vs acceleration so what is going on?
I glanced at the latest issue of F1 Racing yesterday where Mercedes feature heavily, and saw a quote from Schumacher saying something about his problem being the tyres...

[Valve Bounce]

I glanced at the latest issue of F1 Racing yesterday where Mercedes feature heavily, and saw a quote from Schumacher saying something about his problem being the tyres...

Yeah! I think Rosberg's tyres are more round than SchM's.

[Ruben Barrios]

Give it three more races, a lot of people will be eating crow...

[SGWilko]

Give it three more races, a lot of people will be eating crow...

Does crow taste like pigeon?

[SGWilko]

Yeah! I think Rosberg's tyres are more round than SchM's.

Nah, Rosbergs turn faster, that's all......

[Valve Bounce]

Nah, Rosbergs turn faster, that's all......

Knew there was something about the tyres - just couldn't put my finger on it.

[Dzeidzei]

Yeah! I think Rosberg's tyres are more round than SchM's.

They are also more black. And seem to rotate faster.

[TheFamousEccles]

Does crow taste like pigeon?

Nah, it tastes just like chicken - but needs some broiling (it can be a little tough).

As for the thread - I read the first page or so, and then flicked to the last few. I hope the cheating ******* does get it together to do right by the 40+ crowd, but I feel that his time has past.

[AndyL]

Does crow taste like pigeon?

No more like grouse.

[SGWilko]

No more like grouse.

The bird or the liquor? ;)

[AndyL]

The bird or the liquor? ;)

actually I was thinking of the verb ;)

[markabilly]

To be honest over the past 3 years I've read post after post from his fans telling us that he is the best driver for adapting to a car and had the ability to win in an inferior car which no other driver could extract the potential out of, and now this?? He's assured us that he is fitter than he was 4 years ago, and has the fresh motivation which he began to lack in late 2006.

When Button was struggling in the last 10 races of last season the comparison was made that Michael would still have been able to wipe the floor with everyone in an inferior car, and then back in 2004 how many races Michael would have won in Button's BAR etc etc. It can't possibly be the car surely? The Mercedes is capable of competing for podiums and certainly the top 5 as we all know.

There must be another explanation.

One issue may simply be getting back into "the zone" where he was in years past. Somewhere in the past, there was a thread or two about what it is like to be in the zone....where things become slow motion, you see many details (even seeing individual spectator's faces, their eyes and so forth ) and you do things like drive without being forced to be thinking about it, as though you and the car are one... :vader: ........

hard to describe it, if you have not been there

[Valve Bounce]

One issue may simply be getting back into "the zone" where he was in years past. Somewhere in the past, there was a thread or two about what it is like to be in the zone....where things become slow motion, you see many details (even seeing individual spectator's faces, their eyes and so forth ) and you do things like drive without being forced to be thinking about it, as though you and the car are one... :vader: ........

hard to describe it, if you have not been there

I knew it!! I wasn't the only one!!

[Roamy]

well his only problem in getting back in the groove is that TAD is the trencher!
Wait until you see his new car before throwing dirt on him. I don't trust any of this especially if he all of a sudden rockets to the top!

[Mia 01]

He will not get one moore WDC.

I wonder if he will win a race.

[Firstgear]

I think it's time to change the title of this thread to "Michael Schumacher is getting annihilated by Nico Rosberg this season".

I mean did I see the "rainmeister" stuck behind Sutil for who knows how many laps while everybody else ahead of him got past? Also, the "rainmeister" got owned in the wet by a newbie Russian driving a Renault, which is obviously inferior to the Mercedes. Well, the Mercedes looks like a better car in Rosberg's hands definitely.

Now waiting for Schumacher fans to come up with age and adaptability excuses. It's not like he jumped into the car straight in Shanghai. The "adaptability genius" had all the testing and 4 races to get used to the 2010 car. Well, now we all know how those Rory Byrne designed Ferraris made him look better than he really was.

Gotta agree with all of that.

Who was it at Ferrari that said something to the effect of "It's not the Michael we know driving for Mercedes, it is someone else." Well he appears to be right - this Michael is too slow to stir up any contraversy.

The Schum fans should be very happy that it was Luca B that ferrari chose to step in for Massa.

[SGWilko]

To be honest over the past 3 years I've read post after post from his fans telling us that he is the best driver for adapting to a car and had the ability to win in an inferior car which no other driver could extract the potential out of, and now this?? He's assured us that he is fitter than he was 4 years ago, and has the fresh motivation which he began to lack in late 2006.

When Button was struggling in the last 10 races of last season the comparison was made that Michael would still have been able to wipe the floor with everyone in an inferior car, and then back in 2004 how many races Michael would have won in Button's BAR etc etc. It can't possibly be the car surely? The Mercedes is capable of competing for podiums and certainly the top 5 as we all know.

There must be another explanation.

Nah mate, it's the car, they have a new chassis ready for him - complete with an N-duct (that's nitrus btw!!!) :D

[SGWilko]

Is it the zone or the "groove"?
Feeling the flow, working it oh yeah.

By jove, that's it!!! Just knock out some Madonna numbers over the radio to fire him up. Maybe a bit of Kraftwerk and that bird with the hairy pits that did 99 Red Balloons....


And the Hoff - he's big in Germany apparently......

:rotflmao:

[RMLCruzeing82]

By jove, that's it!!! Just knock out some Madonna numbers over the radio to fire him up. Maybe a bit of Kraftwerk and that bird with the hairy pits that did 99 Red Balloons....


And the Hoff - he's big in Germany apparently......

:rotflmao:


:laugh: :rotflmao: :bigcry: :rotflmao:

[Dzeidzei]

The Schum fans should be very happy that it was Luca B that ferrari chose to step in for Massa.

Dunno, that depends. Not stepping in for Felipe meant that the hype stayed alive for at least half a year. Now its all gone, but if MS had replaced Massa (and been kicked to a far away land by Kimi which he would have been) the MS fans would be well on their way to recovery.

Or maybe not... Maybe theres no cure :) Give the guy 3 races. I mean 4 races. I mean half a season. I mean another season... I mean a better car. I mean anything..

There must be another explanation.

He's 41?

[Mia 01]

The ting is that Nico yet havn´t won a race. Is he among the four or five top dogs in F1?

And still!!

But with his claim that the cars are easier to drive with alot less stress on the body, and Mercedes and his doctor claiming his fitness levels are above what they were in 2006, its hard to accept.

Fitness levels are not relevant to reaction speeds. Nor are they relevant to performance. Damon Hill was still physically fit in 1999, but the inner speed had gone.


He did record the fastest GP2 testing time pre season in a car being developed for 2011

He was the only one on track. Setting a fastest time of the close season when you are the only one at the circuit doesn't prove anything compared to the opposition.

Every session is different, with conditions always changing. Comparing pre-season times between different tests is ridiculous.

Only somebody without a reasonable level of knowledge would pay any attention to times from different tests.


Beating Massa in karts, and the RoC twice filled us with such hope.

A charity event and the competition levels at the Race of champions are incomparable to F1.

According to the ROC results, Kovalainen is brilliant. It's one step up from "It's A Knockout".


Could it be his neck and Mercedes are keeping quiet? I've seen onboard shots comparing him and Nico and his race craft still looks impressive but he brakes earlier and accelerates later than Nico by sometimes 0.2 seconds during each sector

Could well be his neck, or that and combination of age and neck issues, or just age. Most likely just age, as there is no way of telling before hand if the performance is still there when age starts to take its toll.



He claims to lack grip and the tyres are not to his liking but this is a man who is widely regarded to be the best of all time at adapting to a new environment.

He was the best of all time at adapting to new conditions. When he was at the peak of his powers that was true.

He isn't anywhere near his peak anymore, nor should he be expected to be or should have expected himself to be.

The last thing to go in a great champion is self-belief.


He spent three years helping with development at Ferrari and its not as though he's out of touch technology wise.

He hadn't driven a current Ferrari F1 car since early 2008.


We've seen in the past with drivers like Mansell that age is not necessarily a huge disadvantage

Mansell hadn't quit top line racing for three years.

The only driver who had and returned succesfully was Lauda, who was 33 when he made his comeback, generally considered the prime age for great drivers.


and his return so far has been slightly disappointing IMO.

As it inevitably was going to be considering the previous unparralled success he enjoyed in his prime.


I longed to see Hamilton and Schuey fighting it out, but maybe that is yet to come?

Hamilton was born too late for that to ever realistically happen.


I certainly hope so, or he's an €18m per season advertising campaign for Mercedes.

That depends on what else he brings to the team.

That said, it's been a successful advertising campaign given the press coverage he has created.

I said back last August that Michael was better off staying retired, but it was a brave decision to try a comeback, something that should have been applauded rather than derided.

Whatever the results, or lack of, this comeback brings, it will not affect the fact, and yes it is indeed a fact, that in his prime he was beyond the levels of success ever witnessed before.

[Mia 01]

I think that bringing a F1 car to the limit is scary to most people.

[SGWilko]

Hamilton was born too late for that to ever realistically happen.

I blame the parents....

[Garry Walker]

how does the egg feel @ Garry Walker

The egg is fine and well :D

The season is young...

[F1boat]

Dunno, that depends. Not stepping in for Felipe meant that the hype stayed alive for at least half a year. Now its all gone, but if MS had replaced Massa (and been kicked to a far away land by Kimi which he would have been) the MS fans would be well on their way to recovery.

Or maybe not... Maybe theres no cure :) Give the guy 3 races. I mean 4 races. I mean half a season. I mean another season... I mean a better car. I mean anything..

He will likely not recover, as he will not suddenly become younger. Tamburello has explained things very well. But obviously for SOME Finn fans this is a cause of great celebration. Still Michael has more titles that all Finn drivers put together.

[Big Ben]

He will likely not recover, as he will not suddenly become younger. Tamburello has explained things very well. But obviously for SOME Finn fans this is a cause of great celebration. Still Michael has more titles that all Finn drivers put together.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts - for support rather than for illumination. "

[Dzeidzei]

He will likely not recover, as he will not suddenly become younger. Tamburello has explained things very well. But obviously for SOME Finn fans this is a cause of great celebration. Still Michael has more titles that all Finn drivers put together.

How is this a Finnish thing? I would argue that quite a few people here are like me: acknowledge Schumachers achievements and success, but never really liked the guy. For quite a few MS represents something other than true sportmanship and fair competition. Many people think he achieved many of his WDCs in a superior car and in a position that he couldnt be challenged by his teammate.

The fact that Nico has put MS in his place is a pleasant and refreshing thing. Its does NOT take anything away from Michael, expect the glorious hype that has surrounded him over the years. Thats simply a positive thing.

And youre right, MS has more titles than Finnish drivers together. Actually only UK and Brazil beat MS on this list (with 14 and 8 wdcs). Finland is currently on joint 5th place on that list together with Australia, Austria and France beating countries like Italy, USA and Spain. Plus the rest of the some 200whatever countries there are. Including Bulgaria.

But like I said its not a country issue. If thats how you see it youre missing the point by a mile.

[CaptainRaiden]

Gotta agree with all of that.

Who was it at Ferrari that said something to the effect of "It's not the Michael we know driving for Mercedes, it is someone else." Well he appears to be right - this Michael is too slow to stir up any contraversy.

The Schum fans should be very happy that it was Luca B that ferrari chose to step in for Massa.

Yep, and I wonder if he lost his passion to really race and be ruthless. The reason I say this is because of his statements like "Part of my heart is still red", then wearing the same red helmet design, which he changed from his original design to suit Ferrari. Makes sense to change it when you're driving for Mercedes, right?

Then it's him having pasta with his old friends in the Ferrari motorhome, and chatting with Ferrari personnels in the paddock. Which make me wonder if he still really truly wanted to race for Ferrari and Ferrari only, and the Mercedes chance was like a compromise, and now his heart is not fully into it.

I mean there was one picture which I saw somewhere, where he was walking past the Ferrari garage and smiling at them like a kid would walking past a candy store. And none of the Ferrari mechanics were smiling, in fact they had a suspicious look or plain straight faces. Then it's him again lurking around the Ferraris or here he is chatting with Alonso:

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/149102.jpg

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/149099.jpg

I think it's the motivation, and also the fact that he is no longer the de-facto number one driver in a team, so the car and setup is not tailored around him, and he's struggling. Maybe he needs the collective force of ALL the team to be behind him, and treat the second driver as garbage, and that's what'd probably motivate him to be at his best. Or then again, he's just showing all of us how overrated he really is.

[ShiftingGears]

I think it's the motivation, and also the fact that he is no longer the de-facto number one driver in a team, so the car and setup is not tailored around him, and he's struggling. Maybe he needs the collective force of ALL the team to be behind him, and treat the second driver as garbage, and that's what'd probably motivate him to be at his best. Or then again, he's just showing all of us how overrated he really is.

He was never the de-facto number one at Ferrari. He was number one because he was the fastest.

And now, since he is not the fastest right now, he is not number one, and hence, he does not dictate car set-up like he would if he were the fastest.

[i_max2k2]

Yep, and I wonder if he lost his passion to really race and be ruthless. The reason I say this is because of his statements like "Part of my heart is still red", then wearing the same red helmet design, which he changed from his original design to suit Ferrari. Makes sense to change it when you're driving for Mercedes, right?


I guess it must have been just a thing with Identity, that a red helmet like that can't unmistakably of anyone else.


Then it's him having pasta with his old friends in the Ferrari motorhome, and chatting with Ferrari personnels in the paddock. Which make me wonder if he still really truly wanted to race for Ferrari and Ferrari only, and the Mercedes chance was like a compromise, and now his heart is not fully into it.

Well it seemed more of a comeback becoz of Brawn in his team rather than anything else, and hence Mercedes.


I mean there was one picture which I saw somewhere, where he was walking past the Ferrari garage and smiling at them like a kid would walking past a candy store. And none of the Ferrari mechanics were smiling, in fact they had a suspicious look or plain straight faces. Then it's him again lurking around the Ferraris or here he is chatting with Alonso:

Your looking way too much into a picture my friend and this is probably as stupid as it gets, lol, This looks like the picture from the Australian GP, where after qualifying he went to talk to Fernando, where he said Alonso, couldn't see him coming.



I think it's the motivation, and also the fact that he is no longer the de-facto number one driver in a team, so the car and setup is not tailored around him, and he's struggling. Maybe he needs the collective force of ALL the team to be behind him, and treat the second driver as garbage, and that's what'd probably motivate him to be at his best. Or then again, he's just showing all of us how overrated he really is.


I don't think that motivation could make someone's car setup go wrong, its probably more like lack of experience with the new machinery, and yes I agree the fact that W01 was definitely not tailored with MSC's driving style in mind, and it could very well be, that the new chassis (if it was more than a rumor), is probably tailored to Micheal's driving style. If it was really the case then why didn't Ferrari just put in C grade drivers, or take out the 2nd car out of contention, this is illogical just as how you've put it there.

[pino]

Gotta agree with all of that.

Who was it at Ferrari that said something to the effect of "It's not the Michael we know driving for Mercedes, it is someone else." Well he appears to be right - this Michael is too slow to stir up any contraversy.




Luca di Montezemolo said that, many in here criticized him for that, but once again Luca was right :p :

[Koz]

All valid points Tamb.
It just makes you wonder how great the 2007 and 2008 seasons would have been had Schuey still been in the groove. I'll still keep my fingers crossed he produces one great drive before the season closes.. :)

Had MS stayed, we would not have had Hamilton...

[Mark]

Had MS stayed, we would not have had Hamilton...

What do you mean? That Hamilton wouldn't have been Champ? That he wouldn't have driven for McLaren? That he wouldn't have existed at all?

[Koz]

What do you mean? That Hamilton wouldn't have been Champ? That he wouldn't have driven for McLaren? That he wouldn't have existed at all?

Lewis wouldn't have gotten his chance at McLaren i '07 (fred + kimi). They would have dominated 2007 yada yada yada...

But I guess things happen for the best...

Hell imagine if MS, JV and JPM didn't leave when they did. We probably wouldn't have had likes of Lewis, Kibica, Vettel... God knows what could have happened :p

[CaptainRaiden]

He was never the de-facto number one at Ferrari. He was number one because he was the fastest.

And now, since he is not the fastest right now, he is not number one, and hence, he does not dictate car set-up like he would if he were the fastest.

I don't think there's any doubt in anybody's mind that Michael was in fact the default number one even before Barrichello signed the lap-dog contract, or else events like Austria 2002 would have never happened, and Barrichello would have enjoyed his victories when he deserved it, not to be thrown a bone afterwards.


I guess it must have been just a thing with Identity, that a red helmet like that can't unmistakably of anyone else.

I don't know about that, but when he's driving for Ferrari's biggest rival for who knows how long, he should at least not say stuff like "part of my heart is red." It's clear he hasn't gotten over his ex.


Well it seemed more of a comeback becoz of Brawn in his team rather than anything else, and hence Mercedes.

I don't know if that'd be the case exactly. Of course, he saw that they had a good car, and Ross was also there, and so he jumped at the chance, but remember he kept in touch all these years with Ferrari, even after he retired, testing for them here and there. So, I guess the desire was always there.


Your looking way too much into a picture my friend and this is probably as stupid as it gets, lol, This looks like the picture from the Australian GP, where after qualifying he went to talk to Fernando, where he said Alonso, couldn't see him coming.

Hey! We all like to stir up $h!t from time to time, okay? :p :D


I don't think that motivation could make someone's car setup go wrong, its probably more like lack of experience with the new machinery, and yes I agree the fact that W01 was definitely not tailored with MSC's driving style in mind, and it could very well be, that the new chassis (if it was more than a rumor), is probably tailored to Micheal's driving style. If it was really the case then why didn't Ferrari just put in C grade drivers, or take out the 2nd car out of contention, this is illogical just as how you've put it there.

But do you agree that lack of motivation can be a reason behind someone not being too bothered with car setup and not working too diligently with his engineers and mechanics? I mean this is Schumacher for christ's sakes, the guy who his fans thought was some kind of a magician with an engineering degree himself. He couldn't find a good enough setup throughout all the testing and practice sessions?

The machinery hasn't really changed THAT drastically, and as Massa pointed out earlier, these new cars with slick tyres are easier to drive. I mean it's not some noob we're talking about here, it's a former 7 time champion, and honestly he's getting butchered on the track by Boyband Rosberg in the same car, and Rosberg was at times outqualified and outraced by Kazuki Nakajima.

[Retro Formula 1]

Well, now we know the truth.

The only reason MS is struggleing is because the car is s**t and Nico is the best driver in the world.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83086

Oh, and MS was apparently going to win Aus???

[Big Ben]

Of course he was going to win. Didn´t you know that? It was so obvious that no one actually thought of mentioning it before. I don´t get Haug and all this stupid talk about the chassis. The problem is not there. It´s the freakin´number. Schumi got it all wrong, it was the 4 the lucky one.

[F1boat]

Which make me wonder if he still really truly wanted to race for Ferrari and Ferrari only, and the Mercedes chance was like a compromise, and now his heart is not fully into it.


From the whole post, this I find interesting. The rest, IMO, is garbage. MS is the best driver ever IMO, at least one of the best ever and should be judged by the success he enjoyed in his prime and not from the ridiculous comeback- like other great sportsmen like Michael Jordan.

[ShiftingGears]

I don't think there's any doubt in anybody's mind that Michael was in fact the default number one even before Barrichello signed the lap-dog contract, or else events like Austria 2002 would have never happened, and Barrichello would have enjoyed his victories when he deserved it, not to be thrown a bone afterwards.

Going into Austria in 2002, Schumacher had 44 points compared to Barrichello's 6. It was pretty obvious which driver Ferrari should've supported to give them the best chance at the WDC.

[SGWilko]

Going into Austria in 2002, Schumacher had 44 points compared to Barrichello's 6. It was pretty obvious which driver Ferrari should've supported to give them the best chance at the WDC.

Wow, with so many points on the board, MS could well afford to score two less than his teammate who very clearly out qualified, outdrove and outclassed him that day, and fully deserved the win.

All this demonstrates is that one driver was very much more equal than the other.

[Alfa Fan]

4 less.

[SGWilko]

4 less.

Gosh. that is just soooooo much, no wonder they had to get Ruby to pull up short - poor dear soul Michael would no doubt have lost the will to live.......

I must say, being equal to your teammate is not doing Mike any favours now, is it?

[CaptainRaiden]

Going into Austria in 2002, Schumacher had 44 points compared to Barrichello's 6. It was pretty obvious which driver Ferrari should've supported to give them the best chance at the WDC.

Well, if he really was the number one driver because he was faster than Rubens, would it have hurt him to be a man, accept that he was outclassed by his "slower" teammate that day, and refuse to take the win over the radio to Todt? Oh wait, wasn't it in Rubens' contract to be the "number 2" driver?

This is the first time he's been on equal footing with his teammate, and it's showing how much he struggles if all the resources of the team aren't focused on giving the best car to only one guy. Still, his buddy Brawn is still there, so it may only be a matter of time before Rosberg gets effed over.

[ShiftingGears]

Well, if he really was the number one driver because he was faster than Rubens, would it have hurt him to be a man, accept that he was outclassed by his "slower" teammate that day, and refuse to take the win over the radio to Todt? Oh wait, wasn't it in Rubens' contract to be the "number 2" driver

I highly suspect the Ferrari teams tactics especially during 2002 stem from the aftermath of the 1999 season. They wanted their best driver to win the title as soon as possible, so their worst case scenarios were covered.

[ShiftingGears]

Wow, with so many points on the board, MS could well afford to score two less than his teammate who very clearly out qualified, outdrove and outclassed him that day, and fully deserved the win.

All this demonstrates is that one driver was very much more equal than the other.

And what if another team were miraculously faster than Ferrari for the remaining grands prix? Then it could've been a situation where Schumacher needed those points. It is easy to say he could've well afforded to concede 4 points in retrospect, but they wanted to cover their bases.

Also note that after Schumacher won the championship in 2002, Barrichello and Schumacher won 3 grands prix each, suggesting that after their primary objective was complete, they supported both of their drivers more or less equally.

[ShiftingGears]

This is the first time he's been on equal footing with his teammate, and it's showing how much he struggles if all the resources of the team aren't focused on giving the best car to only one guy. Still, his buddy Brawn is still there, so it may only be a matter of time before Rosberg gets effed over.

He accepted on TV that he has to catch up to Rosberg before he can dictate car development - which demonstrates the advantages of being the fastest driver in most teams- you are the #1 driver. And he was #1 because he was the fastest.

And now, he is 41 and at the moment, not the fastest in the team, and hence, not the number one driver.

[F1boat]

Well, if he really was the number one driver because he was faster than Rubens, would it have hurt him to be a man, accept that he was outclassed by his "slower" teammate that day, and refuse to take the win over the radio to Todt? Oh wait, wasn't it in Rubens' contract to be the "number 2" driver?

This is the first time he's been on equal footing with his teammate, and it's showing how much he struggles if all the resources of the team aren't focused on giving the best car to only one guy. Still, his buddy Brawn is still there, so it may only be a matter of time before Rosberg gets effed over.

At the beginning of 2002 Williams-BMW showed promise, they won 1-2 in Malaysia and were a threat in qualifying. So Ferrari were cautious. Michael returned the favor to Rubens later in the season and was an obedient 2nd driver to Irvine in 1999, so you have to accept that Todt and Ferrari preferred clear hierarchy. This strategy brought to them an unparalleled success and made Michael statistically the best driver in history. The fact that he thought that he could beat Father Time and start new adventure at 41 makes him naive, but does not in any way diminish his achievements.

[SGWilko]

supported both of their drivers more or less equally.

Maybe I am old fashioned, but the team should support both drivers equally at all times until there is no longer a possibility for one to win but the other has.

It's just confirming how one-sided the team was IMO, and that team orders were in effect, so ridiculously early in the season.

It's no skin off my nose, my world continues no matter what an F1 team does, but it would be nice to see some equality.

[SGWilko]

He accepted on TV that he has to catch up to Rosberg before he can dictate car development - which demonstrates the advantages of being the fastest driver in most teams- you are the #1 driver. And he was #1 because he was the fastest.

And now, he is 41 and at the moment, not the fastest in the team, and hence, not the number one driver.

Stop it already! - there should not be 'a No1 and a No2'. Both drivers should get the same treatment, the only slight compromise, if running line astern, is that the guy in fron gets first call on pit stops.

[i_max2k2]

Maybe I am old fashioned, but the team should support both drivers equally at all times until there is no longer a possibility for one to win but the other has.

It's just confirming how one-sided the team was IMO, and that team orders were in effect, so ridiculously early in the season.

It's no skin off my nose, my world continues no matter what an F1 team does, but it would be nice to see some equality.

Well its the real world, that dictate terms, its not a feeling from a sponsor, that they should loose the championship because they are favoring both drivers even when in desperate need, I guess they should have allowed massa to continue as 1st after the 2nd pit stop in Brazil 2007. And let hamilton win, ahh too bad, thats not how its done, its the circumstances and past experiences, and a will to win a championship.I would think the best stance would be, to let both drivers fight for it, as long as its mathematically possible, just like how Brawn did last year.

[Mia 01]

Well, if he really was the number one driver because he was faster than Rubens, would it have hurt him to be a man, accept that he was outclassed by his "slower" teammate that day, and refuse to take the win over the radio to Todt? Oh wait, wasn't it in Rubens' contract to be the "number 2" driver?

This is the first time he's been on equal footing with his teammate, and it's showing how much he struggles if all the resources of the team aren't focused on giving the best car to only one guy. Still, his buddy Brawn is still there, so it may only be a matter of time before Rosberg gets effed over.

You got a point there.

[Big Ben]

Well its the real world, that dictate terms, its not a feeling from a sponsor, that they should loose the championship because they are favoring both drivers even when in desperate need, I guess they should have allowed massa to continue as 1st after the 2nd pit stop in Brazil 2007. And let hamilton win, ahh too bad, thats not how its done, its the circumstances and past experiences, and a will to win a championship.I would think the best stance would be, to let both drivers fight for it, as long as its mathematically possible, just like how Brawn did last year.

I think you should read back the first line. Massa was out of the competition for the title long before brazil

[i_max2k2]

I think you should read back the first line. Massa was out of the competition for the title long before brazil

Yes I do understand, but just like everything this aspect of team orders has also evolved, as F1boat mentioned, that in 2002, in the beginning BMW looked promising, and with the development pace, who knows which team might get slower over time, the point to secure a championship as soon as possible, one way or another, was the philosophy during that season (ofcourse it still is :p ), and now its more like, when does the mathematical permutations stop for the other driver, and I support that as well, I'm not supporting Austria, rather trying to point why that happened.

[F1boat]

Stop it already! - there should not be 'a No1 and a No2'.

That's your opinion. Some team bosses might disagree. It's their right.

[CaptainRaiden]

I can't believe people are seriously defending and trying to justify Ferrari's ridiculous team tactics and number one driver policy, which not only brought the sport into disrepute, but also took the whole aspect of "competition" between two teammates in the same car, and hence the fun away from F1.

Just for the record, I've always hated team orders, even if it involved my favorite drivers. I didn't like Kimi winning the 2007 WC by blatant team orders either, but that was the last race of the season and he had earned it by being better than Massa over the season.

Massa was mathematically out of it. It's not AT ALL the same as Austria 2002, which was the 6th race of the season. And it's so funny when MS fans try to justify Ferrari's tactics there, because MS had already won four out of the five previous grand prix, so it's not as if that victory was super crucial. At least be unbiased and call it slimy when you know deep down that it was.

[F1boat]

I can't believe people are seriously defending and trying to justify Ferrari's ridiculous team tactics and number one driver policy, which not only brought the sport into disrepute, but also took the whole aspect of "competition" between two teammates in the same car, and hence the fun away from F1.


The end justifies the means. It wasn't illegal back in 2002 (I think that team orders should be legal) and Ferrari wanted to maximize the potential for their top driver. Nothing strange, really. In the WRC teams do it all the time.

[SGWilko]

The end justifies the means. It wasn't illegal back in 2002 (I think that team orders should be legal) and Ferrari wanted to maximize the potential for their top driver. Nothing strange, really. In the WRC teams do it all the time.

The biggest issue with THAT race that HAD to be addressed is that what happened ammounted to, effectively, race fixing.

[CaptainRaiden]

The end justifies the means. It wasn't illegal back in 2002 (I think that team orders should be legal) and Ferrari wanted to maximize the potential for their top driver. Nothing strange, really. In the WRC teams do it all the time.

Yeah well, it stinks. A lot of criminals also give the "The end justifies the means" theory for their actions. I'm happy that team orders are illegal now, even though teams still use it in one way or another, Ferrari being the most frequent user. I'm happy that none of my favorite drivers are driving for that scumbag team at the moment.

The biggest issue with THAT race that HAD to be addressed is that what happened ammounted to, effectively, race fixing.

What utter drivel!

If that were so, and it patently wasn't, then so did Jerez 97, Australia 98 & Hockenheim 1998 and every other team order instance.

If somebody didn't know that team orders existed in F1, then they had no right to complain as they were evidently thick.

[BDunnell]

What utter drivel!

If that were so, and it patently wasn't, then so did Jerez 97, Australia 98 & Hockenheim 1998 and every other team order instance.

If somebody didn't know that team orders existed in F1, then they had no right to complain as they were evidently thick.

Oh, what a surprise — tamburello disagrees with someone, so feels the need to display his insider's knowledge not by offering us interesting insights, but by calling the other individual thick or equivalent.

[BeansBeansBeans]

The biggest issue with THAT race that HAD to be addressed is that what happened ammounted to, effectively, race fixing.

If Man Utd were sailing to a comfortable victory and Rooney laid an easy chance off to Fletcher to let him have a goal, would that constitute match fixing?

Oh, what a surprise — tamburello disagrees with someone, so feels the need to display his insider's knowledge not by offering us interesting insights, but by calling the other individual thick or equivalent.

Oh, what a surprise - BDunnell spouts sanctimonious 'holier-than-thou' pseudo-psychiatric cobblers about one of my posts that add nothing to the debate.

Yawn.

I'm well aware of how you believe that my posts offer some kind of insight into my soul (no ****, Sigmund, who would have thought what i say is related to my personality?...hold the front page on that), so how about discussing the topic instead?

One day you might.

Oh, what a surprise — tamburello disagrees with someone, so feels the need to display his insider's knowledge not by offering us interesting insights, but by calling the other individual thick or equivalent.

People who didn't know that legal team orders could lead to the scenario seen at the A1 ring in 2002 are thick.

No insider knowledge needed.

[BDunnell]

Oh, what a surprise - BDunnell spouts sanctimonious 'holier-than-thou' pseudo-psychiatric cobblers about one of my posts that add nothing to the debate.

Yawn.

I'm well aware of how you believe that my posts offer some kind of insight into my soul (no ****, Sigmund, who would have thought what i say is related to my personality?...hold the front page on that), so how about discussing the topic instead?

One day you might.

Gladly. I agree with you — what you say on this occasion is common sense. But I don't like the way you put it.

But I don't like the way you put it.

Believe me, I could have described them in a far worse way.....and in Italian for extra effect.

[BDunnell]

Actually, I ought to apologise for getting on my high horse again.

[F1boat]

The biggest issue with THAT race that HAD to be addressed is that what happened ammounted to, effectively, race fixing.

It was a legal move, therefore not a problem. BTW, I have noted that mostly Ferrari haterz have problem with that race, not the fans. Why do you care what happens at Ferrari? Watch your own teams - I would prefer the finish of Ferrari in 2002, rather the pathetic crash between RS and Montoya in the same race. About McLaren they also have similar moments, but I agree that they make them more subtle.

[CaptainRaiden]

It was a legal move, therefore not a problem. BTW, I have noted that mostly Ferrari haterz have problem with that race, not the fans. Why do you care what happens at Ferrari? Watch your own teams - I would prefer the finish of Ferrari in 2002, rather the pathetic crash between RS and Montoya in the same race. About McLaren they also have similar moments, but I agree that they make them more subtle.

I'd prefer to watch two teammates fight each other for the lead in the same car, a la Senna and Prost, MUCH more than a 1-2 procession over the line where the lapdog is ordered to yield.

It's amazing how "fans of the sport" advocate and try to justify team orders. If you don't like that team orders are illegal in F1 now, then maybe a scripted soap opera would be a better thing to follow.

[steveaki13]

I think Team orders are fine if it is clearly beneficial, i.e In the last races of a season when one driver is going for the title and the other is not in the fight.

It would be silly if in the final round with Driver 2 just needing to win the race to take the championship. If the team let driver 1 outrace Driver 2 and deny him the championship.

However team orders can be wrong as we all know.

i.e Australia 98
i.e Austria 2002

and alike.

[i_max2k2]

I think Team orders are fine if it is clearly beneficial, i.e In the last races of a season when one driver is going for the title and the other is not in the fight.

It would be silly if in the final round with Driver 2 just needing to win the race to take the championship. If the team let driver 1 outrace Driver 2 and deny him the championship.

However team orders can be wrong as we all know.

i.e Australia 98
i.e Austria 2002

and alike.

Australia 98 is not really a good example, here as it seemed, that in the race Mika was accidentally called in while, leading, as such these are team orders but for a different reason, and not really for the same purpose.

[fandango]

I think Team orders are fine if it is clearly beneficial, i.e In the last races of a season when one driver is going for the title and the other is not in the fight.

It would be silly if in the final round with Driver 2 just needing to win the race to take the championship. If the team let driver 1 outrace Driver 2 and deny him the championship.

However team orders can be wrong as we all know.

i.e Australia 98
i.e Austria 2002

and alike.

A good point. They should allow team orders when one driver mathematically can't win the championship, but the other can.

[F1boat]

I'd prefer to watch two teammates fight each other for the lead in the same car, a la Senna and Prost, MUCH more than a 1-2 procession over the line where the lapdog is ordered to yield.


I think that the team has the right to decide what is best for it.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Team orders should be allowed, full stop. Genuine enthusiasts understand that F1 is a team sport. The ban was simply a sop to the outraged armchair viewer.

Team orders remain present but teams have to go about it in a covert manner which fools nobody. The whole thing is an insult to our intelligence.

[ShiftingGears]

The funny thing about team orders discussions is that noone mentions Williams in 1981, where one driver was truely a de facto number 1.

[Roamy]

The funny thing about team orders discussions is that noone mentions Williams in 1981, where one driver was truely a de facto number 1.

Or 1996

The funny thing about team orders discussions is that noone mentions Williams in 1981, where one driver was truely a de facto number 1.

Myself and Rationmacias have done so in previous threads.

[snellman]

everytime i see the topic, i laugh til i pee a little

[SGWilko]

What utter drivel!

If that were so, and it patently wasn't, then so did Jerez 97, Australia 98 & Hockenheim 1998 and every other team order instance.

If somebody didn't know that team orders existed in F1, then they had no right to complain as they were evidently thick.

Read my post again, single out the appropriate word.

Who's thick again Terry?

[SGWilko]

everytime i see the topic, i laugh til i pee a little

You got shares in Tena?

[Mia 01]

The past is over.

MS now has to race under new circumstances, thats it.

[Zico]

The past is over.

MS now has to race under new circumstances, thats it.

Or just maybe there is a major twist in the tale yet to come?

New improved car, longer wheel base, better weight distribution, more pointy front end... just as Michael likes it.

See http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138032

[jens]

The thing that is forgotten about 2002, is that Barrichello was actually gifted more wins than Schumacher that year. People keep endlessly bringing up Austria, but completely forget those 3 (yes, 3!!) wins, which were gifted to Barrichello (Hungary, Italy, USA) to help the Brazilian to secure P2 in WDC. Have you ever seen any other driver being so generous in gifting wins to his team-mate as Schumacher?

[F1boat]

The thing that is forgotten about 2002, is that Barrichello was actually gifted more wins than Schumacher that year. People keep endlessly bringing up Austria, but completely forget those 3 (yes, 3!!) wins, which were gifted to Barrichello (Hungary, Italy, USA) to help the Brazilian to secure P2 in WDC. Have you ever seen any other driver being so generous in gifting wins to his team-mate as Schumacher?

I am not sure that Hungary and Italy were gifted, but yes, in the USA Michael returned the favor and in the other races he was sometimes making some rather bizzare moves like suddenly dropping back from Rubens only to catch him again and who remembers the theatrical spin in Nurburgring?
Actually Barrichello in his whole career gifted two wins to MS - one in Oz 2000 and in this case it COULD HAVE BEEN simply risky strategy from Ross Brawn, a la Spain 2009, the infamous Austria 2002 and one second place in the same place a year before. In the same GP Irvine has gifted MS a podium in 1999. Maybe that's why there was such anger, it was always Austria.
On the other hand Michael has gifted Irvine a very special and beautiful win at his comeback in 1999 Malaysian GP and Barrichello the 2002 US GP, at the legendary Indy track.
So, when it was needed, Michael was a very good 2nd driver and IMO if it is necessary at the end of the season he may even support Nico.

[Big Ben]

I am not sure that Hungary and Italy were gifted, but yes, in the USA Michael returned the favor and in the other races he was sometimes making some rather bizzare moves like suddenly dropping back from Rubens only to catch him again and who remembers the theatrical spin in Nurburgring?
Actually Barrichello in his whole career gifted two wins to MS - one in Oz 2000 and in this case it COULD HAVE BEEN simply risky strategy from Ross Brawn, a la Spain 2009, the infamous Austria 2002 and one second place in the same place a year before. In the same GP Irvine has gifted MS a podium in 1999. Maybe that's why there was such anger, it was always Austria.
On the other hand Michael has gifted Irvine a very special and beautiful win at his comeback in 1999 Malaysian GP and Barrichello the 2002 US GP, at the legendary Indy track.
So, when it was needed, Michael was a very good 2nd driver and IMO if it is necessary at the end of the season he may even support Nico.

So, so, soooo generous. I stand corrected. The man's a monument of generosity. It's pretty much like giving you back the $1000 you lent me 100 years ago but lets not look at the whole picture if it doesn't suit our point, ok?

[i_max2k2]

So, so, soooo generous. I stand corrected. The man's a monument of generosity. It's pretty much like giving you back the $1000 you lent me 100 years ago but lets not look at the whole picture if it doesn't suit our point, ok?

And your point being?

[jens]

I am not sure that Hungary and Italy were gifted, ---

Well, IIRC Schumacher deliberately abandoned or at least slowed on his last qualifying attempt in Hungary, since he was already second and Rubens 1st. Anyway, it was visibly seen that Schumacher didn't give his all that weekend and was driving slowly enough to end up in P2. Due to the total dominance of Ferrari, he could afford such luxury. As for Italy, I remember Schumacher getting off the throttle and braking very early to avoid getting in front of Barrichello after the latter had exited the pits after his scheduled pitstop.

And Barrichello didn't gift a win in Australia '00 - actually MS simply let him through at one point during the race, because RB was on a different two-stop strategy in order to beat the Jordans.

I may add that Schumacher also helped Barrichello in late '01. At Monza he took the backseat and left Rubens to fight it out with the Williamses. At Indianapolis he was again driving at an eased pace and let Rubens in front of him until unfortunately the latter's car disintegrated.

[ioan]

Good points about MS helping his team mates and even handing them a few wins, still the anti brigade will always ignore this and continue bragging about some conspiracy theory to make MS' team mates slower.

[ioan]

So, so, soooo generous. I stand corrected. The man's a monument of generosity.

You've got it right. Now show me when did Alonso gift any of his team mates anything in exchange for all he has got from them.

[F1boat]

Good points about MS helping his team mates and even handing them a few wins, still the anti brigade will always ignore this and continue bragging about some conspiracy theory to make MS' team mates slower.

Yes, it is like arguing with deeply religious people.

[ioan]

Yes, it is like arguing with deeply religious people.

Being an atheist I gave up on that a long time ago, now I am slowly giving up on answering fousto and other ratonmacias' thin conspiracy theories.

[F1boat]

Being an atheist I gave up on that a long time ago, now I am slowly giving up on answering fousto and other ratonmacias' thin conspiracy theories.

Same here... but, BTW, the aliens are 4 real, LOL.

[airshifter]

You've got it right. Now show me when did Alonso gift any of his team mates anything in exchange for all he has got from them.

Alonso shared stolen Ferrari information with DeLaRosa! :laugh:

[Big Ben]

And your point being?

Really? Jesus! ok then.... every win is rewarded with a number of points. So far a win means more points than the second place (hopefully it will stay the same). All this points add up to a final score for each driver that is used to determine the wdc of that year. Each driver´s final goal is to end the year on top of this table. While every win has the same absolute value, it has an relative value too. It is more valuable when it keeps the driver in the title fight and less valuable after the fight´s over. So when RB gave up his place in MS´ favor he reduced his chances while his rival increased his as a result. When MS gave up his place he gave up no relative value. The win had no value in the title fight.

Just like $ 1000 are much less valuable now than 100 years ago. You would have given up a lot to lend me this money back then while I wouldn´t make too much sacrifice today to pay my debt.

So taking something from someone when he needs it and throwing it back when it has no value to neither of them is not the most stupid example of generosity?

Clearer?

[Big Ben]

Yes, it is like arguing with deeply religious people.

Very well put. I admit I was wrong. I don´t get however why would anyone choose MS as god. If I went with the dark side, I would worship the master not one of his disciples.

[Big Ben]

Same here... but, BTW, the aliens are 4 real, LOL.

what does that mean? that you know they don´t exist? with the zillion of stars and planets... you know there isn´t any life anywhere else in the universe? Should I quote Forrest Gump now?

[Big Ben]

Being an atheist

Is there anyone who hasn´t been informed of Ioan´s great achievement? Please speak now so we could let him rest a bit. All this bragging must me exhausting.



You've got it right. Now show me when did Alonso gift any of his team mates anything in exchange for all he has got from them.

So now we should argue like we were 10? My boy is better then your boy? I'm not his dad, nor his lawyer. if you have any problem with him, go complain to him.

[F1boat]

what does that mean? that you know they don´t exist?

Au contraire, I have seen a UFO, my post was a joke, but you seem a bit jumpy to me. Strange what some facts about MS do to his haterz.

[Big Ben]

Au contraire, I have seen a UFO, my post was a joke, but you seem a bit jumpy to me. Strange what some facts about MS do to his haterz.

Of course, name calling, the ultimate weapon, isn´t it? So if you haven´t seen me do I exist? facts and statistics... the average human as one breast and one testicle... that´s pretty much what I think of your pointless facts. If you want to understand your facts read the explanation I gave i_max2k2. It will enlighten you if you can understand it. I find it simple to comprehend but then again, I´m above average.