FIA World Engine

[Sulland]

I think this issue deserve its own thread:


Originally Posted by HaCo
The world motor is coming, one motor for WRC as for WTCC. Restrictor of 33mm, with max turbo pressure of 2,5bar.
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/top/top...011/index.html

Google translation:


"In season 2011, it will be ready. In the WRC, the new 1.6-liter turbo-charged formula taking hold. By the FIA, the new concept is being accelerated as the global racing engine and will find application in many racing series.
The film begins with a year of rallying and the World Touring Car Championship.
The performance of the engine will be 280 to 290 hp, reduced CO2 emissions by around 30 percent," revealed FIA technique Chief Jacques Berger performances of the direct injection.
Because the environment is becoming increasingly important, manufacturers and produce smaller, low-emission engines, the motor must follow the trend.
In November, involved in the development of the new regulations allowed the parties to materials and final details were set by the engine, this was also discussed about the different demands on the performance characteristics between the rally and race engine. This will be achieved mainly through different camshafts. Fix is in both series, the diameter of Air restriktors of 33 mm. Boost pressure is limited to 2.5 bar. A novel FIA control box is designed to give officials soon to assess whether this limit has been exceeded.
More details on the new "World Engine" is to give it shortly."


By these figures, and knowing that 1.6T production engines have 150 to 170hp, what kind of tuning is expected for S2000/1.6T engines: Gr.N, Gr.A or actual WRC modifications?

Wonder when the final details are ready and the manufacturers can start their work ?
Maybe they already have info and have started building and testing 1600T engines, and will just adjust when the final bits of the regs are done ?

Is the plan to start using the world engine in 2011 ?

[Motorsportfun]

I think this issue deserve its own thread:


Originally Posted by HaCo
The world motor is coming, one motor for WRC as for WTCC. Restrictor of 33mm, with max turbo pressure of 2,5bar.
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/top/top...011/index.html

Google translation:


"In season 2011, it will be ready. In the WRC, the new 1.6-liter turbo-charged formula taking hold. By the FIA, the new concept is being accelerated as the global racing engine and will find application in many racing series.
The film begins with a year of rallying and the World Touring Car Championship.
The performance of the engine will be 280 to 290 hp, reduced CO2 emissions by around 30 percent," revealed FIA technique Chief Jacques Berger performances of the direct injection.
Because the environment is becoming increasingly important, manufacturers and produce smaller, low-emission engines, the motor must follow the trend.
In November, involved in the development of the new regulations allowed the parties to materials and final details were set by the engine, this was also discussed about the different demands on the performance characteristics between the rally and race engine. This will be achieved mainly through different camshafts. Fix is in both series, the diameter of Air restriktors of 33 mm. Boost pressure is limited to 2.5 bar. A novel FIA control box is designed to give officials soon to assess whether this limit has been exceeded.
More details on the new "World Engine" is to give it shortly."


By these figures, and knowing that 1.6T production engines have 150 to 170hp, what kind of tuning is expected for S2000/1.6T engines: Gr.N, Gr.A or actual WRC modifications?

Wonder when the final details are ready and the manufacturers can start their work ?
Maybe they already have info and have started building and testing 1600T engines, and will just adjust when the final bits of the regs are done ?

Is the plan to start using the world engine in 2011 ?

It looks like WRC and WTCC will use the World Engine starting from 2011, as neither WRC nor WTCC manufacturers have developed significantly their cars for 2010 season (Lada and Chevrolet excluded, as they need to improve a lot their performances to be... decent!).

Maybe this move will attract new works teams, working on a single big project for 2 champs... isn't it?

[Francis44]

I hope those engines are faster than the current s2000 ones because if they keep the engines slow like they are Hirvonnen will be bored and watch this again....
http://autosport.aeiou.pt/users/0/51/f43a432a.jpeg

[OldF]

I think even a group N car with 32 mm restrictor has about 280-290 hp.



True Mirek, just attended a 3 day test in South Spain with 'new rules' group N car with 33mm and both drivers where really happy with the power !!
(drivers where Toshi Arai and Enrique Ojeda)
So I agree with you, the 1.6T has more freedom in parts as group N and it will be strong engine.

An easy way to estimate the power with a bigger restrictor is to compare the area of two restrictors. In the case with a 32 mm versus a 33 mm restrictor: 33*33 / 32*32 = 1,063 => 6,3% more power with a 33 mm restrictor. If the power with a 32 mm restrictor were 280 hp, the power with a 33 mm restrictor would be 280*1,063 = 297.6 hp. The difference is 17,6 hp and is quite close with the writing in gpweek, issue no 69, page 18 http://mag.gpweek.com/?iid=30377

This is of course true only if all the other engine parameters remain the same. 2,5 bar would be about 0,5 bar more than in the group N cars which would also increase the power but how much. Maybe about 5-10%. And the power also depends on what kind of fuel is allowed 2011. My guess is between 315-330 hp.



How does the boost pressure compare to the current 2.0T engines and how will this affect the engine characteristics (ie. how high they rev)?

Prodrive said on their web site that the Subaru had 4 bar boost. With the lower boost I think the revs will be higher.

[Macd]

Does anyone else see this as a large step backwards?

[MJW]

Can anyone clear something up for me regarding the World Engine, - is it an FIA tender, where a manufacturer "wins" the right to make this engine and it is THE world engine (similar to the early transmission rules in S2K with Sadev), or is it a set of parameters so that, Citroen, Ford, Mini etc. make their own engine but to these defined paarameters about emissions, power, boost pressure etc.?

[Motorsportfun]

it a set of parameters so that, Citroen, Ford, Mini etc. make their own engine but to these defined paarameters about emissions, power, boost pressure etc.?

That's it. ;)

[grugsticles]

I dont really see the point of having a 'World Engine'.
Sure, if differing motor sport categories want to use the same parameters to base their engine regulations on, then thats fine, but to deliberately make a top level rally car use an identical engine to that of a touring car, then I think this is a step in the wrong direction.

Current rally cars are pretty well suited to the idea of running a restictor on the turbo input which suits driving on gravel and other loose surfaces pretty well because of the relatively low RPM required, but circuit racing requires a different RPM power band - generally higher end of the rev range.

So, to me having a restrictor on a circuit racer just isnt going to be very effective.

[COD]

Gr.N 2-litre engines allready give~330 hp with 33 mm restrictor. Boost they use I don't know.

But why is this 1,6 turbo with restrictions better than 2,0 normalli aspirated engines, I can see no point there

[Mirek]

COD: Sorry, but that's not possible. Gr.N with 33 mm restrictor has some 290-300 Hp. Boost is around 1,8-1,9 bar I think.

1.6 Turbo is interesting for manufacturers because it's current trend to make engines smaller and with turbo. It's because of higher efficiency, lower consumption and emissions. 2.0 naturally aspirated engines are practically dead in common cars, these engines are no longer developed and substituted by smaller turbo units.

[I am evil Homer]

If anything it shows the FIA is actually listening to manufacturers an attempting to make it's 'production car' based series more relevant to them as part of their development and marketing campaigns.

Setting a series of parameters is enough as they have done. If there's an off the self engine too then it might encourage more privateers too

[RS]

Prodrive said on their web site that the Subaru had 4 bar boost. With the lower boost I think the revs will be higher.

That's good news.

For me, that's one of the biggest "problems" with the current World Rally Cars. It's not that they don't sound nice, but that they change gear at such low revs it barely sounds like the drivers are pushing at all.

[COD]

]COD: Sorry, but that's not possible. Gr.N with 33 mm restrictor has some 290-300 Hp. Boost is around 1,8-1,9 bar I think.

.

Don't know for sure, but heard that someone said their gr.N evo10 had 330hp and 650NM torque with 33mm restrictor...

[JFL]

some 12-16 years ago the rallycross Gr.N cars had 36 mm. restrictors and our Ford Escort Cosworth benched 365hp&600NM
(dont remember the exact NM) with bang-bang(antilag) Not immposible today that they could achieve the same or more with a 33mm..??

[SubaruNorway]

I hope antilag will still be alowed on the T1600 btw?

[Macd]

I hope antilag will still be alowed on the T1600 btw?

I think it will. At least in WRC anyway.

[Mirek]

Don't know for sure, but heard that someone said their gr.N evo10 had 330hp and 650NM torque with 33mm restrictor...

No, I know how much power such car has. Of course it doesn't mean someone couldn't have said so ;)

[dimviii]

two different cars(evo9) in Greece tested with 33mm and the output was 305-310bhp/590-600nm @1,9bar

[ste898]

Another stupid idea by he FIA dimwits.........

THis will be the end of WRC if this happens as why would manufacturers enter if they cant even use their own engine in the car!!!!

[Mirek]

You don't read properly. World engine doesn't mean standard engine. It's just set of rulles which is valid for more sports, not just rally.

[Alvaro_Rally]

It sounds nice!

I suppose engines will be very different to the standard ones. Group N cars such as Mitsus and Subs have 300 CV in both series and racing versions so most components can stay unmodified. But this new engines will jump from 150 to 300 CV so they will need deep modifications in crankshaft, pistons, head, block...

[OldF]

some 12-16 years ago the rallycross Gr.N cars had 36 mm. restrictors and our Ford Escort Cosworth benched 365hp&600NM
(dont remember the exact NM) with bang-bang(antilag) Not immposible today that they could achieve the same or more with a 33mm..??

Do you remember the boost used?

[Mirek]

36 mm means almost 20% difference in restrictor area compared to 33 mm. Such power is impossible in my opinion, You simply can't get more air through because You can't run over the speed of sound.

[OldF]

Let’s play with some figures.

The speed of sound in air is 343 m/s at 20 C°. The amount of air an engine needs to produce a certain amount of power can be calculated with this formula: Wa = hp * A/F * BSFC / 60. A/F is the air to fuel ratio and BSFC is break specific fuel consumption, which means how much fuel is needed to produce one hp. So, if you want 380 hp with an A/F of 12 and BSFC of 0,5, the airflow would be 380*12*0,5/60 = 38 lb/min (17,2 kg) of air. (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech103.html)

To get that airflow true a 34 mm restrictor, the speed of the airflow has to be 267,2 m/s (this is calculated with an air density of 1,184 kg/m³, which is at sea level at 1 bar and at 25 C°). The airflow is “only” 77,9% of the sonic speed but I think there has to be a magic turbo to reach the sonic speed.

Related to the topic this can be used to estimate the power of the 1,6T engine. The same 77,9% airflow of sonic airflow with a 33 mm restrictor would produce 358 hp assuming 4-bar boost (380 hp with a 34 mm restrictor). If an N group engine produce 290 hp with a 32 mm restrictor and 1,9 bar boost, the power with a 33 mm restrictor would be 308 hp (same 67,1 % of airflow compared to sonic). Now we have a 358 hp engine with 4 bar boost and a 308 engine with 1,9 bar boost.

The difference in the boost is 4,0 – 1,9 = 2,1. Using the percentage of sonic airflow, the difference of 4 bar boost (77,9%) and the N-group engine’s percentage (67,1%) is 10,8%. There is 2,1 boost / 10,8%, which means 0,51% / 0,1 bar. Now adding 0,6 bar as percentage (multiplying 6*0,51%=3,09%) to the original 67,1% gives 70,21% and multiplying that with “sonic” power of a 33 mm restrictor (459,4 hp) gives 322,6 hp. So the 1,6T engines power could be somewhere between 315-330 but about 1000 rpm higher revs than the N-group engines.

This was the end of this short story :)

[Mirek]

I don't want to argue with Your figures but I think that Your results doesn't suit with reality in WRC engines.


I was told by one motoring engineer that the emount of air You can get through restrictor is reached somewhere near 2000 rpm in WRC engine with 4 bars of boost. In that moment, the speed of air is at the speed of sound (restrictor chokes).

With smaller boost the maximum emount of air will stay almost same but will be reached in much higher rpm.

[Francis44]

If I understood this straight, this means that next WRC cars are going to be 1.6l Turbo, so that menas no S2000 for WRC, is this correct??!!

[HaCo]

If I understood this straight, this means that next WRC cars are going to be 1.6l Turbo, so that menas no S2000 for WRC, is this correct??!!

There will be no more S2000 at all, 2l N/A is dropped completely.

[Rallyper]

Can you count with every figures as linear numbers. Shouldn´t it be some x2 and square rooths for example as well...? :confused:

[Francis44]

There will be no more S2000 at all, 2l N/A is dropped completely.

Thanks, now im sure.

[Sulland]

Let’s play with some figures.

The speed of sound in air is 343 m/s at 20 C°. The amount of air an engine needs to produce a certain amount of power can be calculated with this formula: Wa = hp * A/F * BSFC / 60. A/F is the air to fuel ratio and BSFC is break specific fuel consumption, which means how much fuel is needed to produce one hp. So, if you want 380 hp with an A/F of 12 and BSFC of 0,5, the airflow would be 380*12*0,5/60 = 38 lb/min (17,2 kg) of air. (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech103.html)

To get that airflow true a 34 mm restrictor, the speed of the airflow has to be 267,2 m/s (this is calculated with an air density of 1,184 kg/m³, which is at sea level at 1 bar and at 25 C°). The airflow is “only” 77,9% of the sonic speed but I think there has to be a magic turbo to reach the sonic speed.

Related to the topic this can be used to estimate the power of the 1,6T engine. The same 77,9% airflow of sonic airflow with a 33 mm restrictor would produce 358 hp assuming 4-bar boost (380 hp with a 34 mm restrictor). If an N group engine produce 290 hp with a 32 mm restrictor and 1,9 bar boost, the power with a 33 mm restrictor would be 308 hp (same 67,1 % of airflow compared to sonic). Now we have a 358 hp engine with 4 bar boost and a 308 engine with 1,9 bar boost.

The difference in the boost is 4,0 – 1,9 = 2,1. Using the percentage of sonic airflow, the difference of 4 bar boost (77,9%) and the N-group engine’s percentage (67,1%) is 10,8%. There is 2,1 boost / 10,8%, which means 0,51% / 0,1 bar. Now adding 0,6 bar as percentage (multiplying 6*0,51%=3,09%) to the original 67,1% gives 70,21% and multiplying that with “sonic” power of a 33 mm restrictor (459,4 hp) gives 322,6 hp. So the 1,6T engines power could be somewhere between 315-330 but about 1000 rpm higher revs than the N-group engines.

This was the end of this short story :)

Physics teacher OldF ? :p

[OldF]

Physics teacher OldF ? :p

Well, you started this thread and I just published my ideas how to figure out the power of a 1,6T engine. Of course the calculations are theoretical and the conditions in a real air restrictor is different. I’m not an automotive engineer and I don’t have any university degree so I just try to use common sense and the skills I have. It would be nice if there were a real physicist on this forum who could explain the air physics with a restrictor. Any feedback is welcome.

[rdr]

Well, you started this thread and I just published my ideas how to figure out the power of a 1,6T engine. Of course the calculations are theoretical and the conditions in a real air restrictor is different. I’m not an automotive engineer and I don’t have any university degree so I just try to use common sense and the skills I have. It would be nice if there were a real physicist on this forum who could explain the air physics with a restrictor. Any feedback is welcome.

New 33 mm rules Evo IX produce about 320 hp / 650 Nm (3 cars dyno result average) and Evo X even a bit higher results...

[OldF]

New 33 mm rules Evo IX produce about 320 hp / 650 Nm (3 cars dyno result average) and Evo X even a bit higher results...

Are these results with the original turbo or with a turbo homologated in group N option variant (boost level)?

One mistake I made in my earlier calculations was that I didn’t take into account the volumetric efficiency (VE). Changing VE to 89% (89% of the air flowing true the restrictor is “inhaled” in the cylinders) and BSFC = 13 gives sonic airflow true the restrictor at about 400 hp. Additionally there are also some pressure drops after the intercooler.

But this didn’t change the final result because the calculations where based on percentages (relative).

[OldF]

Are these results with the original turbo or with a turbo homologated in group N option variant (boost level)?

One mistake I made in my earlier calculations was that I didn’t take into account the volumetric efficiency (VE). Changing VE to 89% (89% of the air flowing true the restrictor is “inhaled” in the cylinders) and BSFC = 13 gives sonic airflow true the restrictor at about 400 hp. Additionally there are also some pressure drops after the intercooler.

But this didn’t change the final result because the calculations where based on percentages (relative).

Sorry, not BSFC but A/F =13