Should we be using winter tyres in the UK? [Archive] - Page 2

donKey jote

14th October 2010, 18:58

I've been lead to believe that a summer ti(y)re commound is not suitable for dry pavement in cold weather.

ok you asked for it... here's my donkey view:
One of the characteristics of a rubber compound is called it's glass transition temperature Tg. This Tg defines the transition of the rubber from being viscoelastic to being -you guessed it- "glassy".
For normal temperatures, grip actually tends to increase with decreasing temperature, as rubber becomes more visco-elastic and less elastic (better grip vs worse rolling resistance).
However go too low and rubber loses it's rubberness and grip altogether.

Now, if you have shight summer tires (i.e. the standard mileage oriented rubbers you tend to prefer over in the N of A, which tend to have more natural rubber and a lower Tg) then you probably won't notice too much difference on a dry pavement as it gets colder within reason.
However if you have high(er) performance tires (i.e high grip focus compounds), then your tires can get noticeably harder and/or brittler as the temperature decreases -> less grip.
I wouldn't recommend parking your Porsche outside at -40°C for example, or when you start to roll your tires might break :p

To summarise, for dry roads I wouldn't expect too much of difference at around 0°C with your standard lower grip/higher mileage tires. 0°C is a dodgy temperature though- black ice and all that.

Whatever your tires, summer or winter, you need to know what you have and drive accordingly :)

donKey jote

14th October 2010, 19:04

Thanks Daniel.
The reason I'm asking is that winter precipitation in my neck of the woods can vary quite a bit. Cold temperatures are a given, but we have been known to have relatively little snowfall. I can see myself keeping the summer ti(y)res mounted well into the winter season if we have little snow :mark:

and if you have snow, then get proper winter tires with a snowflake symbol. "M+S" doesn't have anything to do with winter performance ;)

Daniel

14th October 2010, 19:06

and if you have snow, then get proper winter tires with a snowflake symbol. "M+S" doesn't have anything to do with winter performance ;)

Yes that just meanst that there is a certain percentage of cuts in the tyre right?

donKey jote

14th October 2010, 19:12

M+S doesn't mean anything. You could legally slap the stamp on any tire if you wanted.
In fact, from a legal point of view, winter tires simply don't exist :p

Daniel

14th October 2010, 19:28

and if you have snow, then get proper winter tires with a snowflake symbol. "M+S" doesn't have anything to do with winter performance ;)
Interesting. It was something I read on another forum so wasn't sure :p

Daniel

14th October 2010, 19:28

M+S doesn't mean anything. You could legally slap the stamp on any tire if you wanted.
In fact, from a legal point of view, winter tires simply don't exist :p

My head just exploded :p I have winter tyres in the shed :mark: :p

schmenke

14th October 2010, 20:47

Daniel

14th October 2010, 22:03

I have a set of proper winter ti(y)res. Never checked for any markings although they do have a deep aggressive thread and make a world of a difference in snow/ice conditions. I just like to mount them as late as possible in the fall and remove them as early as I can in the spring, basically to minimize the mileage I put on them to eke out as many winter seasons as possible before having to purchase a new set (yes, I'm a cheapo :rolleyes: ).
It's not being cheap, there's no sense in putting your tyres on too early and wearing them unnecessarily. When I started work in March at the place I'm working at now, I noticed a car on the very same winter tyres as my 500 was wearing. I took mine off early April and it's had them on the whole year and you can see that they've worn a fair bit.

I've done about 2 and a half thousand miles on my winters so far and they've got around 7-8mm tread left and 16 thousand miles on my summers and they've got 6mm tread left. I'm pretty happy with that :) one thing to consider is that if you've got a set of low profile summer tyres and a set of chunky winters is that the winter tyres will generally be cheaper. My winters were £52 each and the summer ones are more like £60-75 for decent ones so even if the winters do wear a little quicker if there's a bit of warmth, it's still fine from a money POV :)

It makes sense to manage your tyres, I mean what's the point in just throwing away money for no reason?

schmenke

15th October 2010, 16:22

19 deg. C yesterday but today it is 3 C and snowing :dozey:

donKey jote

15th October 2010, 16:28

nice one :laugh: :laugh:

Daniel

15th October 2010, 17:28

19 deg. C yesterday but today it is 3 C and snowing :dozey:
Intermediates?

Daniel

26th November 2010, 11:06

The answer today is definitely yes :) Trip to work was uber fun today being able to overtake the slowpokes with summer tyres :D

Couple of inches of snow here at work and I'm glad I brought the Fiat and not the Subaru.

Mark

26th November 2010, 11:32

I'd like winter three but it's the praticalties that put me off! What do you do with your summer tyres in the winter and vice versa.

Daniel

26th November 2010, 11:40

Don't take up all that much room tbh. Ours go in the shed. Failing that they could go in a corner of a Garden or some tyre places operate tyre hotels.

Eki

26th November 2010, 12:13

I'd like winter three but it's the praticalties that put me off! What do you do with your summer tyres in the winter and vice versa.
You could stack them up, cover the stack with a cloth and use it as a round table/footstool.

Mark

26th November 2010, 12:55

Ah so.

Daniel

26th November 2010, 14:54

Ah so.
I guess it all depends how inconvenient it is for you to store them. If you're going to be stepping around or over a stack of tyres every day of the year then that's pretty stupid but if they go in a corner of the backyard under a cover or in a small shed then IMHO it's worth it. Tyre hotels are also an option, apparently Kwik fit are doing it? -> http://www.tyrepress.com/News/business_area/28/20480.html

Would I trust Kwik ****up with a nice set of alloys though? I think not!!!!

Gotta love driving in the snow :D

http://oi56.tinypic.com/50jfcl.jpg

MrJan

26th November 2010, 15:08

I guess it all depends how inconvenient it is for you to store them. If you're going to be stepping around or over a stack of tyres every day of the year then that's pretty stupid but if they go in a corner of the backyard under a cover or in a small shed then IMHO it's worth it. Tyre hotels are also an option, apparently Kwik fit are doing it? -> http://www.tyrepress.com/News/business_area/28/20480.html

Would I trust Kwik ****up with a nice set of alloys though? I think not!!!!

Gotta love driving in the snow :D

http://oi56.tinypic.com/50jfcl.jpg

Bet the bloke in the Bimmer had the most fun on the way to work though, RWD is the way forward (or sideways) :D

Daniel

26th November 2010, 15:09

Bet the bloke in the Bimmer had the most fun on the way to work though, RWD is the way forward (or sideways) :D
Well luckily/notsoluckily the snow came when a lot of people were already in work but I bet he had a fun trip back home :D

Bob Riebe

26th November 2010, 16:09

I guess they don't sell an All season tire in the UK? They are a tire that isn't a great summer performer, but ok, and in winter they can be ok, not great in snow. I live in a winter climate, but find with traffic being what it is when it snows, I don't get up to any high rate of speed anyhow, and have gotten by with All Seasons. I SHOULD have Winter tires if I did any commuting, but most of my work week the car isn't going anywhere, it is sitting. Also, in Southern Ontario where I am, the snow removal and salt trucks have the roads to bare pavement in about 12 hours after a snow on all major routes.

IN the UK, I would think you would wear out winter tires on the pavement for the amount of snow you get, but since I am not there, I cannot comment. I just know in Quebec, it is law to have Winter tires...and I suspect it will be law here too. Because god knows some people cannot drive on dry pavement, but somehow passing laws that fit everyone will allow the pol's to think they have done all they can. I have been driving 25 years, and I have never left the road in the winter. Got stuck a few times yes...but that was in drives or parking lots. So take it from someone who LIVES in a winter clime, winter tires are a great asset, but for one or two snows a year; I would get by with an all season tire if it was available.

All season tires are NOT snow or even winter tyres, they are designed to handle wet/damp weather better than standard tyres and that is all.
Here tire sellers do not EVER tell anyone that all-season tyres are good for winter, in any manner.

I finally after many years, partly due to very mild winters, bought true snow tyres and it was a difference of day and night.
I have fifteen inch wheels and am considering getting sixteen inch so I can put on light truck snow tyres, which are better than the average car snow tyre.

Now Blizzak, there is nothing else, period, as good as Blizzak for severe winter weather, told to me by a Goodyear tyre salesman.

I have also considered, they are expensive, in getting bias-ply snow tires again as here when we have heavy snow, if one runs them five pounds or so under inflated, are fantastic for driving through heavy snow. They have a tread pattern more similar to a tractor tire than car tire.
Thirty years ago when the normal Minn. winter was what most consider extreme conditions, I carried a set of true chain in the trunk for emergency use, and did use them at times.

Daniel

26th November 2010, 16:17

All season tires are NOT snow or even winter tyres, they are designed to handle wet/damp weather better than standard tyres and that is all.
Here tire sellers do not EVER tell anyone that all-season tyres are good for winter, in any manner.

I finally after many years, partly due to very mild winters, bought true snow tyres and it was a difference of day and night.
I have fifteen inch wheels and am considering getting sixteen inch so I can put on light truck snow tyres, which are better than the average car snow tyre.

Now Blizzak, there is nothing else, period, as good as Blizzak for severe winter weather, told to me by a Goodyear tyre salesman.

I have also considered, they are expensive, in getting bias-ply snow tires again as here when we have heavy snow, if one runs them five pounds or so under inflated, are fantastic for driving through heavy snow. They have a tread pattern more similar to a tractor tire than car tire.
Thirty years ago when the normal Minn. winter was what most consider extreme conditions, I carried a set of true chain in the trunk for emergency use, and did use them at times.

Finally we agree on something bob :p

Blizzak's are good and do well in the tests but there are a number of tyres which also test very well and are up there too. But it depends what you get over there in the USA as to whether the competition is any good I guess :) Strangely enough Goodyear Ultragrip 7+'s are very good so your Goodyear salesman is underselling the potential of his product :)

janneppi

26th November 2010, 16:32

According to the latest test from Tekniikan Mualima, Goodyear's ultra grips won their test, followed by Continentals and Nokian's. Blizzak Nordics were fifth, having good straight line grip on snow and ice, not so good driving charasteritcs in wet and dry tarmac.
Not that I care about non studded tyres. :)

In the same test they also had studded tyres and the straigth line braking distances between tyres are quite big.
best studdeds at 50 kph were around 50-52 m, worst (Chinese whatnotts) at 70-72m
best non studdeds were around 68-70m and worst (Kenda Icetec)around 85m

I did a brake test few days ago, full brake at 50 kph on icy snow. I was a bit surprised to see how long the stopping distance was, about 65 meters.

Daniel

26th November 2010, 16:35

According to the latest test from Tekniikan Mualima, Goodyear's ultra grips won their test, followed by Continentals and Nokian's. Blizzak Nordics were fifth, having good straight line grip on snow and ice, not so good driving charasteritcs in wet and dry tarmac.
Not that I care about non studded tyres. :)

I did a brake test few days ago, full brake at 50 kph on icy snow. I was a bit surprised to see how long the stopping distance was, about 65 meters.
I'd love to drive on studs one day just to feel what it's like :)

schmenke

26th November 2010, 16:40

I agree with Rob et al. There is a huge difference between all season and winter tires. I would never consider driving in Canadian winters with all season tires.
Mark, the reason that the province of Quebec mandated winter tires is to reduce accidents, insurance claims and ultimately cost to the province.
It's a requirement that other provinces should consider, especially in southern Alberta where municipal snow clearing is, for the most part, non-existant :s

Easy Drifter

26th November 2010, 18:30

Many years ago when they were legal I ran studded tires on my dealer supported rally car. 180 in each front and 220 in the rear on a rear wheel drive Austin A55.
Great on hard pack or icy roads. Not much better than just snow tires on light or in deep snow.
Interesting to say the least on wet roads!
Even here in Ontario's snow belt the main roads are usually clear within a couple of hours of it stopping. Exceptions are flat areas where the wind can just whistle across. With drifting a clear road can suddenly be snow covered. Certain major roads can be almost guaranteed to be shut several times a winter. We also get squalls that will be only a few miles wide that can dump large quantities in minutes. Also a major storm can last more than 24 hours.
Side roads are another story!
Major cities use a lot of salt. Smaller cities and towns use mostly sand so the roads can be snow covered for weeks at a time. A couple of years ago I didn't see pavement in my town for 6 weeks although the highways were dry pavement.

schmenke

26th November 2010, 18:40

...Major cities use a lot of salt. Smaller cities and towns use mostly sand so the roads can be snow covered for weeks at a time. A couple of years ago I didn't see pavement in my town for 6 weeks although the highways were dry pavement.

Welcome to Calgary :dozey:

donKey jote

26th November 2010, 20:10

I guess it all depends how inconvenient it is for you to store them. If you're going to be stepping around or over a stack of tyres every day of the year then that's pretty stupid but if they go in a corner of the backyard under a cover or in a small shed then IMHO it's worth it. Tyre hotels are also an option, apparently Kwik fit are doing it? -> http://www.tyrepress.com/News/business_area/28/20480.html

Would I trust Kwik ****up with a nice set of alloys though? I think not!!!!

Gotta love driving in the snow :D

http://oi56.tinypic.com/50jfcl.jpg

holy **** the snow shrank your car ? :crazy: :eek: :p

Daniel

26th November 2010, 20:11

holy **** the snow shrank your car ? :crazy: :eek: :p
It does look a little small doesn't it? :mark:

donKey jote

26th November 2010, 20:49

All season tires are NOT snow or even winter tyres, they are designed to handle wet/damp weather better than standard tyres and that is all.

err not quite... they are neither proper snow tyres or high performance summer tyres. Wet/damp depends more on the tread compound than anything else, and all-season tyres don't usually have top wet grip compounds as they tend to be designed with extra focus on mileage, specially on your side of the puddle. :)

Now Blizzak, there is nothing else, period, as good as Blizzak for severe winter weather, told to me by a Goodyear tyre salesman.
I have to refine your comment: The Blizzak 4x4 may be/have been good in snow, the other Blizzaks I've seen are nowhere near the top, period ;)

donKey jote

26th November 2010, 21:21

Gotta love driving in the snow

I drove to Münich for a meeting Wednesday evening, in wintery conditions, in a rear-driven vehicle from a well known Bavarian manufacturer wearing
18" W-rated winter tyres from a well know German manufacturer ( ;) ).

Great fun, pure "Freude am Fahren", apart from the odd traffic jam and the roadworks. Speed symbol W tyres aren't true Winter tyres in my book, but they got me there and back safely despite driving like a donkey at stupid speeds. :eek:

I wonder what sort of tires the X5 and the Q7 who passed me at >220kph were on :crazy:
I also wonder what the Ferrari and the Z8 were wearing, I reckon they were doing well <100kph. To be honest, I hardly even saw the Z8 :erm:
Damn looking back I really did drive like a moron BMW-driver :dozey:

Daniel

26th November 2010, 21:48

Nice. I'm wondering whether to get t or h rated tyres for Caroline's Subaru. That's if she allows me to buy some tyres for it :p

donKey jote

26th November 2010, 22:28

T, unless you want to drive >190kph and/or increase the tire manufacturer's profit margin :p
err I mean H, definitely ;) :laugh:

Daniel

26th November 2010, 22:32

So no driving at 191kph for extended periods of time? :(

Bob Riebe

26th November 2010, 22:57

err not quite... they are neither proper snow tyres or high performance summer tyres. Wet/damp depends more on the tread compound than anything else, and all-season tyres don't usually have top wet grip compounds as they tend to be designed with extra focus on mileage, specially on your side of the puddle. :)

I have to refine your comment: The Blizzak 4x4 may be/have been good in snow, the other Blizzaks I've seen are nowhere near the top, period ;)
Tell the gents who sell tires, they supplied me with the information.

I can tell you though that mileage has zero to do with the purchase of "all-season" tires on this side of pond, far too many do believe it means they are for winter use, which is why sellers make sure to debunk that myth.

The magazines, directed at automotive tire business, that several have in the waiting room, do give a lot of information tidbits though that is not found else where.

Daniel

26th November 2010, 23:16

Tell the gents who sell tires, they supplied me with the information.

I can tell you though that mileage has zero to do with the purchase of "all-season" tires on this side of pond, far too many do believe it means they are for winter use, which is why sellers make sure to debunk that myth.

The magazines, directed at automotive tire business, that several have in the waiting room, do give a lot of information tidbits though that is not found else where.
In case you don't know, Donkey Jote works for a rather large European tyre company so he knows his stuff ;) If Donkey Jote says Blizzak 4x4's are good then they are and if he says the regular ones aren't then they most likely aren't ;)

donKey jote

27th November 2010, 09:33

I didn't say they are good, I'll leave that to the Goodyear salesmen :laugh:

donKey jote

27th November 2010, 09:37

So no driving at 191kph for extended periods of time? :(
Sure there are ample safety margins, but you wouldn't be covered :)

Mark

2nd December 2010, 12:47

Just got this email from etyres.co.uk

Dear Customer,
Winter has definitely arrived early with blankets of snow and ice spreading across the UK - so don’t let tyre safety slip your mind.
There’s a big debate at the moment about whether switching to winter tyres is worth the money and effort. Many of our customers want to know if they will have to go back to all-season tyres in the spring?
Well the fact is, there’s no reason why you can’t use winter tyres all year round in the UK now - and you can take our managing director’s word for that.
He had winter tyres fitted to his Mercedes two years ago and they are still delivering excellent grip and comfort all year round.
We have got a great range of winter tyres available to supply and fit at your home or work, including premium and mid range brands. And, as you know, our prices are always low - up to 40% cheaper than the leading high street chains.
If you need winter tyres you can order online www.etyres.co.uk (http://www.etyres.co.uk/?news=02-12-10) or call our national sales team on 0800 028 9000 where we will be can answer your questions and offer advice.
Finally, even if you think your tyres don’t need replacing, it’s still advisable to give them a thorough inspection every few weeks - especially ahead of long journeys. Check the air pressure and make sure there are no signs of cuts, bulges or any other damage. And don’t forget to check the spare - you never know when you might need it!
Kind regards
etyres

Daniel

2nd December 2010, 13:28

Just got this email from etyres.co.uk

Meh. I could feel the difference in performance when it was 15 degrees or so. When I was in France and it was getting towards 40 degres I could feel the Potenza's getting soft and getting really sticky. In that weather the winter tyres would have been daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaangerously craptastic.

Dave B

2nd December 2010, 13:43

Is the [color=black] just HTML or a sales pitch for the tyres?

gadjo_dilo

2nd December 2010, 13:57

We've just escaped from a law that obliges us to use winter tyres. It was postponed for next winter. I used to laugh at my colleagues who generally live in blocks of flats and wondered where could they store the summer tyres during winter ( and viceversa ).

Mark

2nd December 2010, 14:06

Strange really that etyres are pushing winter tyres so much and then don't stock any for my car!

Mark in Oshawa

2nd December 2010, 15:50

Meh. I could feel the difference in performance when it was 15 degrees or so. When I was in France and it was getting towards 40 degres I could feel the Potenza's getting soft and getting really sticky. In that weather the winter tyres would have been daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaangerously craptastic.

In your case, your summer tires have to go come winter. In my world, most of the general all season radials do cope decently with snow and ice. They are no hell as performance tires, but on a car that my wife drives to work and back and up north, we are not talking carving corners and the joy of driving...we are talking basic transportation. First ice and snow of the year this week, and the new tires I put on the car (Cooper tires all season Hercules brand) coped decently with it. They were quiet and decent in the early fall when it was still warm too..so again, a compromise tire worked for me.

This insistence that people by LAW buy winter tires of course sounds great if you are a tire manufacturer but as Gadjo Dijo points out, apartment dwellers don't often have a way of storing the off season tires. There will be people willing to STORE them for a COST of course. So once again, a well meaning government makes money for the tire manufacturers and some guy with a ware house, but in the end, is the public REALLY safer? Yes...sorta...but again, smart drivers with a decent all around tire can manage....

Daniel

2nd December 2010, 15:56

No one stocks tyres in 195/45 r16 mark. Like me you'd need to go for either 175/65 r14's as I have or 185/55 r15's. A wide low profile tyre isn't going to spell in the snow anyhoo. Plus the narrower tyres are cheaper

Daniel

2nd December 2010, 15:59

Daniel

2nd December 2010, 15:59

Daniel

2nd December 2010, 16:02

Mark in oshawa, I think you slightly miss the point. I've no doubt that all round tyres will get you through most stuff but rather than having Ok tyres year round why not have good tyres all year round?

Mark in Oshawa

2nd December 2010, 16:04

Mark in oshawa, I don't really use all of the grip that the potenza's give but its nice to know that it's there if you do need to. All weathers would most likely be ok for me but IMHO taking the tyres off twice a year isn't that much of a problem when you're on the best tyres all year round

It is a nice luxury for sure Daniel. If you don't mind buying the tires and storing em, by all means. I have no issue with it. I just don't need my government telling me that I HAVE to buy Winter tires. I don't have to buy anything....and I don't have to vote for the idiot who has to tell me that I cant handle my car without winter tires. For 27 years of driving in a country with a real winter, I have managed just fine without them telling me what tires I can have on my car.

As I have stated before, I drove an Mazda Rx 7 in the snow belt of central Ontario and never put winter tires on the car, and got stuck maybe once. The tires were not great, I wont lie, but I managed.....and had I had the extra money and time, winter tires might have been a good call.

Your little car I imagine is quite good just based on its layout and power for any winter driving. I am going to look forward to test driving a 500 when they finally bring them to North American with FIAT's acquistion of Chrysler...

Daniel

2nd December 2010, 16:11

donKey jote

2nd December 2010, 16:30

Just got this email from etyres.co.uk
That etyres guy sounds like a bit of a donkey :p
"Well the fact is, there’s no reason why you can’t use winter tyres all year round in the UK now"

Sure there's no reason why you can't, but that in no way means you should ! :laugh:

Daniel

2nd December 2010, 16:41

There's a donkey at work who runs vredesrein snowtracs all year. Crazy mofo. Not as bad as some people though, one of my cowprkers has 1 winter tyre and 3 other mismatched tyres :p

Mark in Oshawa

2nd December 2010, 17:21

I think the big problem is modern performance tyres which are ultra terrible in snow and ice. For my car and mark's car there are no all weather options. The other problem in the UK is when there is snow people cack their dacks and don't drive and the roads just fill up with snow and they don't get cleared. I can imagine in Canada more people have tyres
Which are better suited and drivers who are a bit more confident.

Mostly you are correct. Still, the worst day to drive in Toronto is the first day of snow. You would think most of them had never seen snow before....lol

By the end of winter...we can take the worst you can imagine and keep going. It amazes me how we keep on with commerce and life through some pretty nasty snows.

Mind you, as I sit typing this, I see no snow really. Just a dusting...yet 50 miles due south of me, 23 INCHES of snow has fallen on Eastern Buffalo NY..and the NY State Thruway has been shut down. Winter when coupled with lake effect snow ( a Great Lakes issue) can really make owning any car without Winter tires a bad idea!

donKey jote

2nd December 2010, 17:26

I just don't need my government telling me that I HAVE to buy Winter tires.

Mark don't worry, that WON'T happen for quite a while:

a) there's no black/white (legal) way to define Winter tyre
b) there's no black/white (legal) way to define "Winter" as in when you are legally required to use the undefined tyres in a) :p

Here in Germany I think about 50% of people have a set of Winter wheels and a set of Summer wheels, to be changed when they think the conditions are right (many still change on the day of first snowfall however :s :p ). It's as natural as wearing a T-shirt in Summer and a thick coat in Winter (or roughly October to Easter for Winter tyres).
There is no official legal government requirement for Winter tyres in Winter, just the highway code stating something along the lines of making sure your vehicle is roadworthy at all times. Cause (or simply be involved in) an accident or block a road in Winter while wearing tyres unsuited to the conditions and expect little sympathy from your insurance company, the police or the judges. :)

I put mine on later than other years: mid November. The first snow fell yesterday and I'm having great fun in my Winter tyre clad donkey cart :D

Mark

2nd December 2010, 17:32

So I'd have to buy some wheels too, and find somewhere to store my alloys and recalibrate the speedo and odometer.

Mark

2nd December 2010, 17:36

I've been talking to Ibby and he has performance tyres on his Octavia which specifically say they are not for winter use, that combined with far too much torque he can't get anywhere!

Ps. I always find in life that whatever you buy you end up finding it is somehow 'non standard'.

donKey jote

2nd December 2010, 17:56

So I'd have to buy some wheels too, and find somewhere to store my alloys and recalibrate the speedo and odometer.
No need to recalibrate anything if you get the tire sizes within the range your vehicle manufacturer permits :)

Many people here save the alloys for Summer and have cheap steel rims for Winter (I got 2 sets of alloys though :p ).

Daniel

2nd December 2010, 18:05

No need to recalibrate anything if you get the tire sizes within the range your vehicle manufacturer permits :)

Many people here save the alloys for Summer and have cheap steel rims for Winter (I got 2 sets of alloys though :p ).

Exactly. My tyres are the same size as the ones on Mark's Fester which is 195/45 r16 and 175/65's are the same size pretty much.

I've linked to this a number of times ;)

http://www.vredestein.co.uk/Onlineadvies_Advies_result.asp?AutomerkID=57&AutomodelID=39&AutotypeID=2225&AutouitvoeringID=58443&SearchtypeID=1&UserSessionID=27718318

As Donkey Jote says it's cheaper to go for steel wheels. I got my wheels for about 30 pounds, heck the wheel covers were more expensive than the wheels themselves because I wanted 500 wheel covers as I wanted it to look OEM :)

Currently Mytyres are wanting silly amounts for winter tyres. 75 pounds for Vredestein's and 80 for Conti's but if you buy them before winter or when it's not stupidly cold they're more like 50. They want 52 for bloody Nangkangs now :mark:

Something tells me that Caroline's Subaru isn't getting winter tyres anytime soon at those prices!!!!!!! Might wait till the weather warms up a little if we're going to get winter tyres for it this winter. Prices were about 20-30% less just a week ago.

donKey jote

2nd December 2010, 18:38

Currently Mytyres are wanting silly amounts for winter tyres. 75 pounds for Vredestein's and 80 for Conti's but if you buy them before winter or when it's not stupidly cold they're more like 50. They want 52 for bloody Nangkangs now

Whatever you do, don't get NangKangs! They are mediocre in Winter and CRAP in the wet!

And hey, only 5 squid between Vred and Conti? That means either the Vreds are over-priced or the Conti's are a bargain :erm: ;) :p :arrows:

schmenke

2nd December 2010, 18:44

...Something tells me that Caroline's Subaru isn't getting winter tyres anytime soon at those prices!!!!!!! ...

Being AWD does the wench's vehicle really need winters?

Mrs. Schmenke's 4WD SUV is equipped with all-season tires. Even in our snow-clogged streets she never has problems getting around.

Daniel

2nd December 2010, 18:46

Being AWD does the wench's vehicle really need winters?

Mrs. Schmenke's 4WD SUV is equipped with all-season tires. Even in our snow-clogged streets she never has problems getting around.

It's got summer tyres on it and after what happened yesterday (I won't say what happened) suffice to say that the rules regarding 4wd's not doing certain things any better than 2wd's on snow and ice hold very much true. The Subaru's a little off colour at the moment and needs the speedo sensor replacing so it'll get the work done before it gets winter tyres if it does get them this year.

schmenke

2nd December 2010, 18:53

Mark don't worry, that WON'T happen for quite a while:

a) there's no black/white (legal) way to define Winter tyre
b) there's no black/white (legal) way to define "Winter" as in when you are legally required to use the undefined tyres in a) :p ...

The province of Quebec has a way:

http://www.mtq.gouv.qc.ca/portal/page/portal/grand_public_en/vehicules_promenade/securite_routiere/securite_conditions_hivernales/reglement_utilisation_pneus_hiver

Daniel

2nd December 2010, 19:06

It's as natural as wearing a T-shirt in Summer and a thick coat in Winter (or roughly October to Easter for Winter tyres).

Very true donks. I changed mine on the 6/11 when it started to regularly stay cold. I could have probably changed a week or two later but it wasn't a problem

I also check this page to see what the temps are going to do for the next couple of weeks :)

http://www.meteogroup.co.uk/uk/home/weather/world_weather/world_regions.html?region=r05

Daniel

2nd December 2010, 19:08

Whatever you do, don't get NangKangs! They are mediocre in Winter and CRAP in the wet!

And hey, only 5 squid between Vred and Conti? That means either the Vreds are over-priced or the Conti's are a bargain :erm: ;)
:p

Do I look like the sort of person who buys Nangkangs Donks? :p

As I said above the Subaru won't be getting winter tyres just yet and will be gettng reasonably priced good tyres or no tyres at all :D

donKey jote

2nd December 2010, 19:29

The province of Quebec has a way:

http://www.mtq.gouv.qc.ca/portal/page/portal/grand_public_en/vehicules_promenade/securite_routiere/securite_conditions_hivernales/reglement_utilisation_pneus_hiver

bloody french :p

So Winter conditions are officially declared to be those existing between Dec 15th and March 15th, regardless of weather?

As of 2014 (so no time soon :p ) in Quebec and I think 2012 or so in Europe, the definition of Winter tyre will be the Snowflake symbol. To get the symbol, the tire must be x% better in Snow Traction than an outdated 14" SRTT reference tire. It's a start, but doesn't give the whole picture. The snow traction test (a tire spin-up on a specially made pickup) used over the puddle has little to do with the traction you or I would experience driving in Winter. Here an ABS-braking test is seen as more relevant.
The SRTT may be an outdated all-season pattern, but guess what, a lot of what is considered a Winter tyre could struggle to get a Snowflake!

schmenke

2nd December 2010, 19:51

..So Winter conditions are officially declared to be those existing between Dec 15th and March 15th, regardless of weather?
...

Donks, on this side of the pond it's a sure bet that winter driving conditions will be encountered between those dates :p :

donKey jote

2nd December 2010, 19:52

Mrs. Schmenke's 4WD SUV is equipped with all-season tires. Even in our snow-clogged streets she never has problems getting around.
maybe it's because she also knows how to drive :p

Hazell B

3rd December 2010, 09:55

maybe it's because she also knows how to drive :p

:wave: :p :

Not that I'm Mrs Schmenke - I dream of such honour :)

Having spent much of yesterday digging out other people, then driving myself out on not only the same road but two foot of snow off road, I can say it's 90% the right tyres on a vehicle in 4 wheel drive and 10% at most natural ability. My elderly Range Rover has goodish mud tyres on all year round and has so far been perfect on and off road every day. We've had up to 24 inches of snow and I'm happily ploughing through that down my private lane to the stables each day then spending all afternoon watching cars and lorries get stuck on the A road outside!

If anyone wants to moan about UK roads not being cleared I have one message for them ..... if you get stuck it is totally your own fault! ANY car can be dug out if you carry a shovel, gloves and some old carpet. If you've got crappy tyres on you should carry basic things to get yourself out, plain and simple. Frankly from what I've seen most of the UK's loudest moaners about the state of the roads are the ones who expect hourly snow ploughs and their own private council man spreading grit before them. Pathetic!

Dave B

3rd December 2010, 10:30

If anyone wants to moan about UK roads not being cleared I have one message for them ..... if you get stuck it is totally your own fault! ANY car can be dug out if you carry a shovel, gloves and some old carpet. If you've got crappy tyres on you should carry basic things to get yourself out, plain and simple. Frankly from what I've seen most of the UK's loudest moaners about the state of the roads are the ones who expect hourly snow ploughs and their own private council man spreading grit before them. Pathetic!

:up: This.

Robinho

3rd December 2010, 11:03

i was in Edinburgh on Saturday/Sunday when about 8 inches came down overnight, and had to travel back south to Stoke and then on to Stansted to come back to Sweden. I had hired a car, and by luck ended up with a Seat Altea Freetrack, which is a slightly jacked up estate with Audi haldex 4wd system. It was running on moderately used Bridgestone Contisport 3's, definately not winter tyres. Coming out of edinburgh its is quite a long hill and there were several cars getting stuck, plus a double decker bus. everytime i came to a jam i pulled into a side road and ran parallel to the main road for a few blocks and then back in. There was 8+ inches of untouched snow on untreated roads and the car never faltered. 4wd was enough and the tyres coped fine. That said 4wd will only help so much, and for braking and turning winter tyres are incredibly helpful, 4wd only helps the traction, you still need to be going the appropriate speed and have some clue what you are doing.

However i do think that all cars should require winter tyres, inclduing the 4wd's, as especially a 2wd on worn normal tyres is useless unless going in a straight line on a flat road, but also the standard and ability of most drivers on the slippery stuff causes a lot of the problems. Either there is an inch of snow in a field nearby and idiots start driving at 20mph, or people try to drive normally and leave no extra space for stopping distances or slowing for corners. The combination of the 2 creates gridlock. most of the pictures i've seen seem to be of the UK motorways and main roads with less than a couple of inches of snow, or even just wet and slush, but completely gridlocked cos someone a few miles away is being a moron.

however unless mandated only a few will take up winter tyres as people don't realise that they are on the whole better in all conditions once the temp gets down to about 5 degrees celcius, not just for snow and ice.

Mark

3rd December 2010, 11:06

however unless mandated only a few will take up winter tyres as people don't realise that they are on the whole better in all conditions once the temp gets down to about 5 degrees celcius, not just for snow and ice.

There's the cost, but mostly just the hassle not only of getting them fitted but swapping them over etc. Tyres mostly work just on putting new ones on and getting rid of the old ones, keeping some and putting them back on again just isn't something there is infrastructure for.

janneppi

3rd December 2010, 11:31

There's the cost, but mostly just the hassle not only of getting them fitted but swapping them over etc. Tyres mostly work just on putting new ones on and getting rid of the old ones, keeping some and putting them back on again just isn't something there is infrastructure for.
the hassle of changing them IMO is the least of the problem. If you live in house, you are bound to have room for four tyres. I store my tyres in my parents shed, along with my dad's, sister's and brother's tyres. The actual switch takes about 30 minutes and requires a parking space, preferrably tarmac, and a basic floor jack cost 20 eur-200 Eur. If you use alloy wheels, it's best to use a torque wrench so you don't over tighten the wheel nuts.

Added bonus is that you get a good view how your brakes and shocks are doing.

Dave B

3rd December 2010, 11:47

Good luck with that in the UK. You can't even tell people to clear off all their glass (and not just peer out of a gap in the windscreen) without them getting the hump. Morons, most of 'em!

Daniel

3rd December 2010, 11:58

:wave: :p :

Not that I'm Mrs Schmenke - I dream of such honour :)

Having spent much of yesterday digging out other people, then driving myself out on not only the same road but two foot of snow off road, I can say it's 90% the right tyres on a vehicle in 4 wheel drive and 10% at most natural ability. My elderly Range Rover has goodish mud tyres on all year round and has so far been perfect on and off road every day. We've had up to 24 inches of snow and I'm happily ploughing through that down my private lane to the stables each day then spending all afternoon watching cars and lorries get stuck on the A road outside!

If anyone wants to moan about UK roads not being cleared I have one message for them ..... if you get stuck it is totally your own fault! ANY car can be dug out if you carry a shovel, gloves and some old carpet. If you've got crappy tyres on you should carry basic things to get yourself out, plain and simple. Frankly from what I've seen most of the UK's loudest moaners about the state of the roads are the ones who expect hourly snow ploughs and their own private council man spreading grit before them. Pathetic!

Couldn't agree more. If the UK was equipped to deal with the weather then taxes would have to be higher etc etc.

Kind of reminds me of the bear patrol tax in the Simpsons. Damn immigants!

Daniel

3rd December 2010, 12:04

the hassle of changing them IMO is the least of the problem. If you live in house, you are bound to have room for four tyres. I store my tyres in my parents shed, along with my dad's, sister's and brother's tyres. The actual switch takes about 30 minutes and requires a parking space, preferrably tarmac, and a basic floor jack cost 20 eur-200 Eur. If you use alloy wheels, it's best to use a torque wrench so you don't over tighten the wheel nuts.

Added bonus is that you get a good view how your brakes and shocks are doing.

Yup. Currently my alloys are standing out in the back yard because I wanted to clean them before they went into storage.

Like you say it's also good to see how your brakes are doing as well as checking CV boots and the like. I also have my own torque wrench which only cost me 20 pounds or so. That way I don't have to deal with tyre monkeys breaking my locking wheel nuts.

The problem though is as Robinho says, 99% of people could be on winter tyres but if the moron out from wants to drive at 5 mph then traffic is going to go at 5mph. IMHO if you're too timid to drive at a decent speed then stay home and let people get on with it.

A set of wheels takes up hardly any room, unless you live in a tiny 1 bedroom flat or have no backyard then you have space.....

I did actually consider buying up a stock of steel wheels over the summer and selling winter tyres including rims on ebay but I there's always the risk of not making your money back and I couldn't be bothered with it.

schmenke

3rd December 2010, 14:50

Yup. Currently my alloys are standing out in the back yard because I wanted to clean them before they went into storage.

Like you say it's also good to see how your brakes are doing as well as checking CV boots and the like. I also have my own torque wrench which only cost me 20 pounds or so. That way I don't have to deal with tyre monkeys breaking my locking wheel nuts....

Yep. My buddy and I usually swap our respective vehicle's tires together in his garage. Typically it takes less than 90 minutes and a couple of beers for both vehicles. Mind you, it helps that his garage is equipped with a compressor and a pneumatic impact wrench :erm: . Still, we never trust the torque setting on the wrench and do the final tightening by hand with a proper torque wrench.

Dave B

3rd December 2010, 16:36

Daniel

3rd December 2010, 17:23

Small vignette for you.

The news has been full of the usual dire warnings not to drive unless your journey's essential. Well today I had to take my elderly father to a medical appointment which I considered important. I spent half an hour clearing the car off, brushing every single flake of snow away with a soft broom, did a walkround to check all the lights, then set off.

When I arrived at his house I found a car outside driven by someone who must have judged a trip to the post box as essential (even though we've had no post in 3 days). He'd made an effort, bless him, he'd cleared most of his front windscreen and some of his driver's window; and I think he'd got his sidelights on but it was a job to tell through the snow. There must have been nearly a foot of snow on his roof, and about the same on his bonnet. I think it was a Renault Laguna but it was hard to tell. Number plate? No idea.

I watched him post his letter then get back into his car and floor it, in first gear. He moved... about an inch. A couple of minutes later, when I'd collected my dad, he was still trying. Front wheels spinning like mad, car resolutely going nowhere. I probably should have given him a push, but I honestly didn't want to play any part in helping a tosser like him being on the road.

The thing that gets me is that it's not hard to clear snow off your car, granted i've not had a foot or anything but you just push it off.....

Sidelights or their more correct term PARKING LIGHTS, why their use isn't banned whilst a car is in motion, the clue to what they're there for is in the name PARKING LIGHTS.

It's Darwin coupled with laziness at work though. People just don't seem to realise the seriousness of a journey undertaken on icy/snowy roads and also don't begin to think about what could happen and what happens then like if Mr Laguna's foot of snow comes down over the windscreen just before an icy corner......

Mark

3rd December 2010, 17:36

Parking lights are a pet hate of mine. If you feed the need for any lights then you need your headlights!

Daniel

3rd December 2010, 18:11

Apparently on Radio 2 they were saying that some insurance companies are classing it as a modification and want to charge some people extra. What a lot of thieving barstuds. When a car is given an insurance group it is given it on the basis of its specification as the manufacturer has specified.

For instance on the 500 Abarth there is an SS pack which gives better brakes, lower suspension and a healthy increase in power. Insurers can not charge you any extra for this as this is part of the specification of the car. This I am 110% sure of.

Mine lists winter tyres as part of the specification. I've put winter tyres on and if any insurance company wants to try and get more money off me because I've taken steps to make myself and other road users safer then they're SOL.

Churchill are even going on about the benefits of them.

http://www.churchill.com/motor/winter-tyres.htm

Tbh it all sounds a bit made up to me to be honest as I've never seen a post from a person saying that it did actually cost them extra
Perfect example here
http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/wheels-tyres/100186-winter-tyres-little-warning.html

Also, comparison between winter tyres and summer tyres

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/total_tyre_guide/259462/verdict.html

Winter tyres scored between 100-96.7 all seasons got 95.1 and summers got 76.4. Pretty bloody clear if you ask me. Also quite telling was that the summer tyres took 60 seconds longer on a 100 second lap in the snow.

From das AA -> http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-in-the-uk.html

Insurance implications?
If you fit winter or all-season tyres in place of your standard 'summer' tyres then there should be no need to inform your insurer – even though the speed index might be lower than the standard tyre specified by the car maker.
The lower speed index is still likely to exceed all national speed limits by a considerable margin – with the exception of some German autobahns – and is not checked as part of the passenger car MOT test.
Fitting different wheels would not be considered a notifiable modification either provided they are not oversized.
If you follow the standard European practice of keeping two sets of wheels, one fitted with winter tyres and one with summer tyres, then there will be no need to tell your insurer so long as the winter tyres are fitted to correct specification steel wheels or to alloy wheels of a similar specification to the car's original equipment.

Daniel

3rd December 2010, 18:16

just saw this on Pistonheads

As much as I think compulsory winter tyres are a good idea, there are at least a couple of reasons why it wouldn't work.

At the moment everyone on the East coast has heavy snow whilst everyone on the West coast has sunshine, 30deg temps. and there's a shortage of ice cream, it'd be hard to convince those people that they really need winter tyres.

Also we've all seen the Motorway Police Camera Stop Interceptor type programmes, it seems that a great deal of people have enough trouble getting their heads around tax, inflating their tyres and driving without carrying class a drugs, how on earth are the mouth breathers going to understand why we need 'special tyres' when Taikisha needs an x-box this christmas? It'd be against their human rights or something.

:rotflmao:

Oh and one of our great Tory overlords thinks that winter tyres = studded tyres :rolleyes:

http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/12/03/transport-minister-slammed-over-confused-winter-tyre-message/

donKey jote

3rd December 2010, 20:40

Bridgestone Contisport 3's

:facepalm:
I'm going to have to show your post to our marketing guys :laugh: :laugh:

Daniel

3rd December 2010, 20:42

Hey. Didn't notice that :rotflmao:

donKey jote

3rd December 2010, 20:48

Yep. My buddy and I usually swap our respective vehicle's tires together in his garage. Typically it takes less than 90 minutes and a couple of beers for both vehicles. Mind you, it helps that his garage is equipped with a compressor and a pneumatic impact wrench :erm: . Still, we never trust the torque setting on the wrench and do the final tightening by hand with a proper torque wrench.
90 minutes with an impact wrench :crazy:
that's a HELL of a lot of beers you must get through in 80 minutes :bandit: :p

You're absolutely right about the torque settings on pneumatic impact wrenches by the way... if they're not calibrated regularly you should set them to the lowest torque and use a proper torque wrench for the tightening. :)

janneppi

4th December 2010, 07:13

90 minutes with an impact wrench :crazy:
that's a HELL of a lot of beers you must get through in 80 minutes :bandit: :p

My thoughts exactly. :)
I've sometimes pondered getting one of those cordless impact drills, the ones rally crews use. I usually come to my senses after looking at the prices. :)

donKey jote

4th December 2010, 10:11

My thoughts exactly. :)
I've sometimes pondered getting one of those cordless impact drills, the ones rally crews use. I usually come to my senses after looking at the prices. :)
They are excellent nowadays, really light and compact, you wouldn't regret it... just think of all the beers you would get from your neighbours :p

Iain

4th December 2010, 16:43

Daniel

4th December 2010, 17:18

It's amazing how much the price of winter tyres have gone up the space of four weeks. I was thinking about ordering a tyre and alloy wheel combo in October, but had to put that on the backburner as I urgently needed two new "summer" tyres when one of them went flat on me. Ordered some the other day there for at least £100 more than they were previously, but needs must and all that. I've been stranded for six days without a car because our residential streets were just unpassable and having driven for two days in the snow with the regular Pirellis on, it didn't fill me with confidence.

Currently running 225/45/18s (previous owner spec'd bigger wheels) and have downsized to 205/55/16 Vredesteins. When they'll arrive though, I have no idea as they are probably on back order, but they'll be a good thing to have in any case as this is just the start!

A friend of mine had a good idea. He bought a 12 year old Ford Maverick for under a grand back in the summer and he's been the only person in and out of his street all week!

If it's with mytyres they were quite good when I ordered back in January at the height of last winter. I think they only list stuff that they've actually got stock of but I could be wrong, the ladies answering the phone were as good as useless and wouldn't say anything about stock :mark:

It is crazy how the prices have gone up though like you've said. I was looking at tyres for the Subaru and they were 50-55 for decent tyres. Now the cheapest Nangkang's are almost 50 pounds, brands you've heard of (Falken) are 65 pounds whilst the tyres that I was looking for are now more like 75-95 pounds and inexplicably there's a Vredestein option which is 239.40 PER tyre. This is for 195/65 r15's ffs! :p

Let us know how you get on Iain :D Probably start getting 30 degree days now :mark:

schmenke

4th December 2010, 17:28

90 minutes with an impact wrench :crazy:
that's a HELL of a lot of beers you must get through in 80 minutes :bandit: :p
....

Sigh... :p :

1. Open a couple of beers for proper pre-lubrication.
2. Find breaker bar to crack nuts ( :crazy: ).
3. Crack nuts on wheel # 1.
4. Move boxes and assorted junk out of the way to access trolley jack (hasn’t been used in ~6 months).
5. Root around garage to find jack stand (hasn’t been used in ~6 months).
6. Locate jacking point underneath vehicle and jack vehicle up.
7. Place jack stand underneath frame.
8. Remove nuts.
9. Remove wheel.
10. Inspect brakes, shocks, coils, etc.
11. Realise that a flashlight is required for step 10.
12. Root around garage to find flashlight.
13. Complete #10.
14. Mount tire and replace nuts.
15. Remove jack stand, lower vehicle.
16. Toruque nuts.
17. Realise that wheel cover is not positioned properly (impedes valve stem).
18. Cuss.
19. Repeat steps 6 to 9, then 14 to 16, paying particular attention to wheel cover placement.
20. Realise that there are still 7 more wheels.
21. More lubrication.
22. Crack nuts on 2nd wheel...
23. Repeat...

Daniel

4th December 2010, 17:31

Sigh... :p :

1. Open a couple of beers for proper pre-lubrication.
2. Find breaker bar to crack nuts ( ).
3. Crack nuts on wheel # 1.
4. Move boxes and assorted junk out of the way to access trolley jack (hasn’t been used in ~6 months).
5. Root around garage to find jack stand (hasn’t been used in ~6 months).
6. Locate jacking point underneath vehicle and jack vehicle up.
7. Place jack stand underneath frame.
8. Remove nuts.
9. Remove wheel.
10. Inspect brakes, shocks, coils, etc.
11. Realise that a flashlight is required for step 10.
12. Root around garage to find flashlight.
13. Complete #10.
14. Mount tire and replace nuts.
15. Remove jack stand, lower vehicle.
16. Toruque nuts.
17. Realise that wheel cover is not positioned properly (impedes valve stem).
18. Cuss.
19. Repeat steps 6 to 9, then 14 to 16, paying particular attention to wheel cover placement.
20. Realise that there are still 7 more wheels.
21. More lubrication.
22. Crack nuts on 2nd wheel...
23. Repeat...

Or ask your better half to help and despair when she walks off because you hadn't ordered her to do something in the last 2 seconds so she assumes you don't need help even though you're soaked with sweat even though it's only a few degrees outside :mark: :rolleyes: :p : :dozey:

odykas

5th December 2010, 15:12

I'm a bit bored to read this interesting thread from the beginning... could somebody let me know what's the verdict on winder tyres?
Thanks :p :

Daniel

5th December 2010, 19:24

I'm a bit bored to read this interesting thread from the beginning... could somebody let me know what's the verdict on winder tyres?
Thanks :p :

Basically if you want to drive your car all year round and be as safe as possible then yes, buy winter tyres.

If you're a motorsport fan who understands the difference that different compounds and tread designs can make in different conditions then no, don't buy winter tyres, it makes far too much sense :laugh:

Easy Drifter

6th December 2010, 03:29

Daniel for you there is only one clear answer! Let Caroline drive!!!!!!! :D
Being serious for a change, the Province of Quebec has mandated that you must have winter tires on. I forget the actual dates.
In the nanny state of Ontario studs are not allowed in the southern portion of the Province but are legal in the north. So anyone who lives in the north must take their studded tires off to drive in the south. Duh!
Yes we do travel a lot in Ont.
Winter or snow tires are not required here.
I live in what is generally called central Ontario on Georgian Bay. Lovely in the summer but today with high winds sweeping across the still open waters not so nice.
This is Ontario's snow belt! Studs not allowed.
I can see why Ontario does not mandate snow tires. The GTA really gets very little snow. When it does chaos erupts but it does when it rains also.
I am still on no weather Contis. Actually not hopeless in dry or wet (not downpour) conditions with little but still legal tread.
To be quite honest after 20 years of running our own company we got out in rough shape. Money is very tight.
Right now I am waiting for a surplus Pension settlement of many thousands of dollars from a Co. I worked for for over thirty years. The courts are so fast this actually started over 25 years ago. Agreement was reached almost 2 years ago but final approval was late Oct. Payout probably before Jan.
Then I will buy snow tires!
What I am not sure.
I still enjoy motoring sideways but also like to be able to stop!

Valve Bounce

6th December 2010, 09:54

OK! I'll throw a spanner in the works and ask the obvious question: "What about keeping a set of chains in the car instead? "

Daniel

6th December 2010, 10:43

OK! I'll throw a spanner in the works and ask the obvious question: "What about keeping a set of chains in the car instead? "

Snow chains would need to be taken off when you get onto roads which are clear which in the UK means most main roads. So for me in the last week I'd need to put the chains on when going into my street in the evening, take them off when I get off my street in the morning, put them on when I get into the car park at work and then take them off leaving the car park. That's just moronic.

Mark

6th December 2010, 10:47

Have to say well done to the Highways Agency this morning. A1 & A64 completely clear despite it being -12C outside!

Valve Bounce

6th December 2010, 11:27

Snow chains would need to be taken off when you get onto roads which are clear which in the UK means most main roads. So for me in the last week I'd need to put the chains on when going into my street in the evening, take them off when I get off my street in the morning, put them on when I get into the car park at work and then take them off leaving the car park. That's just moronic.

OK! chains would not suit your situation, obviously. But if you have a Subaru, surely you'd get by without resorting to winter tyres where you are. I'm just thinking of the cost of the extra set of tyres and the trouble of changing them over on the wheels for winter.

Mark

6th December 2010, 11:37

-12C this morning! My car managed fine (if you ignore that the screenwash froze solid!) I didn't fare quite so well!

MrJan

6th December 2010, 11:54

-12C this morning! My car managed fine (if you ignore that the screenwash froze solid!) I didn't fare quite so well!

I got Halfrauds concentrate screenwash which is anti freeze, works very fine and you can mix water in to dilute when it's not that cold. Having the engine in the rear means that anti-freeze screenwash is doubley important because there's no heat from the engine to unfreeze the pipes.

Mark

6th December 2010, 12:08

I got Halfrauds concentrate screenwash which is anti freeze, works very fine and you can mix water in to dilute when it's not that cold. Having the engine in the rear means that anti-freeze screenwash is doubley important because there's no heat from the engine to unfreeze the pipes.

Well my bottle is currently full of Halfrauds, assuming I can actually use some of it on the way home tonight I might see if I can pick up a bottle of super double concentrate -100C stuff and just whack it in neat.

Thankfully the forecast is to be below zero for Tuesday and Wednesday morning then a return to positive numbers on Thursday :D (Although how often is the forecast right?!)

donKey jote

6th December 2010, 15:56

OK! I'll throw a spanner in the works and ask the obvious question: "What about keeping a set of chains in the car instead? "

OK! How fast can you drive with snow chains? Might as well walk instead!

janneppi

6th December 2010, 20:31

OK! chains would not suit your situation, obviously. But if you have a Subaru, surely you'd get by without resorting to winter tyres where you are. I'm just thinking of the cost of the extra set of tyres and the trouble of changing them over on the wheels for winter.
Subaru's don't brake or corner significantly better than 2wd cars. ;)

Daniel

6th December 2010, 20:33

OK! chains would not suit your situation, obviously. But if you have a Subaru, surely you'd get by without resorting to winter tyres where you are. I'm just thinking of the cost of the extra set of tyres and the trouble of changing them over on the wheels for winter.

We do have a Subaru and I would MUCH MUCH rather drive the Fiat 500 to work on winter tyres. After Caroline's experience the other day I'm certainly not changing my mind....

ioan

6th December 2010, 21:55

OK! How fast can you drive with snow chains? Might as well walk instead!

You sure are one fast walker if you can keep up with a car, be it with snow chains.

ioan

6th December 2010, 21:58

But if you have a Subaru, surely you'd get by without resorting to winter tyres where you are.

Got a co-worker with a Subaru Justy, since it first snowed she took the bus every day.

donKey jote

6th December 2010, 22:37

You sure are one fast walker if you can keep up with a car, be it with snow chains.
oh all right, ski then, downhill :p

ioan

7th December 2010, 00:40

oh all right, ski then, downhill :p

Now that certainly beats a car with snow chains, especially on the slopes! :D ;)

Valve Bounce

7th December 2010, 02:21

Got a co-worker with a Subaru Justy, since it first snowed she took the bus every day.

I suppose it all depends on where you live and the conditions and terrain there, and above all the ability of the driver to handle ice and snow conditions.

We had a grader driver in Island Bend who had an old Beetle, yet was able to drive up to Perisher Valley at night to The Man from Snowy River pub. This entailed going up a steep icy road to Renix Gap and then on snow and ice to Perisher. Without chains!!

However, those in the city would be well advised to take public transport if convenient. You can be a champion rally driver, won stages at the Monte, and yet if you are stuck in traffic, it is possible you could be involved in a multi car accident through absolutely no fault of your own.

It all depends on the circumstances and the driving experience.

Daniel

7th December 2010, 07:41

I suppose it all depends on where you live and the conditions and terrain there, and above all the ability of the driver to handle ice and snow conditions.

We had a grader driver in Island Bend who had an old Beetle, yet was able to drive up to Perisher Valley at night to The Man from Snowy River pub. This entailed going up a steep icy road to Renix Gap and then on snow and ice to Perisher. Without chains!!

However, those in the city would be well advised to take public transport if convenient. You can be a champion rally driver, won stages at the Monte, and yet if you are stuck in traffic, it is possible you could be involved in a multi car accident through absolutely no fault of your own.

It all depends on the circumstances and the driving experience.

The reason your beetle driving friend was able to drive his car was the tyres were narrow and older tyres had better tread designs for snow. SO basically they weren't like moden summer tyres and were probably more like winter tyres......

Valve Bounce

7th December 2010, 08:14

The reason your beetle driving friend was able to drive his car was the tyres were narrow and older tyres had better tread designs for snow. SO basically they weren't like moden summer tyres and were probably more like winter tyres......

Don't think so - they were nearly bald. He was the grader operator on snow clearing and just knew how to drive in those conditions.

janvanvurpa

7th December 2010, 17:15

The reason your beetle driving friend was able to drive his car was the tyres were narrow and older tyres had better tread designs for snow. SO basically they weren't like moden summer tyres and were probably more like winter tyres......
Factors to keep in mind:
(Having driven OLD (like 57-62) Beetles in plenty snow in USA and Sweden)
Yes, probably max 155 x 15 real snow tires
Weight hung behind the wheel center line---weight x lever= effectively more
gearing
and of course bhp and torque numbers very nearly in the negative range.

In other words, with a badly asthmatic motor with maybe 7.2 comp the day it was born, and going downhill after that, so nearly zero hp or ft/lbs with skinny tires and weight over the drive wheels of course it can go---if that's what you want to call it---in snow...

Now if you want to talk about the car the the Beetle wished it was but could never be, with a decent motor, but also with modern steering, brakes and a very stiff bodyshell, a car that even into the mid 70s could beat anything in the world on snow, well then we can talk.
But Beetle, naw best not think too much.

Daniel

7th December 2010, 17:22

Factors to keep in mind:
(Having driven OLD (like 57-62) Beetles in plenty snow in USA and Sweden)
Yes, probably max 155 x 15 real snow tires
Weight hung behind the wheel center line---weight x lever= effectively more
gearing
and of course bhp and torque numbers very nearly in the negative range.

In other words, with a badly asthmatic motor with maybe 7.2 comp the day it was born, and going downhill after that, so nearly zero hp or ft/lbs with skinny tires and weight over the drive wheels of course it can go---if that's what you want to call it---in snow...

Now if you want to talk about the car the the Beetle wished it was but could never be, with a decent motor, but also with modern steering, brakes and a very stiff bodyshell, a car that even into the mid 70s could beat anything in the world on snow, well then we can talk.
But Beetle, naw best not think too much.
Not quite sure why I didn't mention the whole rear engined rwd car thing as well.

Daniel

7th December 2010, 17:56

Mark

8th December 2010, 09:02

There was some "controversy" this week about winter tyres being classed as a modification and the society of motor manufacturers and traders as well as the insurance industry have come out and said that this is not the case and winter tyres will/shouldn't increase your premium.

http://www.smmt.co.uk/articles/article.cfm?articleid=22819

I don't see why they would be. For most cars you're free to change your tyres to whatever brand etc you feel like. Winter tyres should be no different.

I think there is still a lot of confusion over winter tyres and what they are. Including among insurance companies (particularly insurance company call centre operatives) who just tick the "modified" box and the premium automatically shoots up.

You've even had the Transport Minister confusing winter tyres with studded tyres, which should be a resigning matter IMO!

schmenke

8th December 2010, 14:50

:crazy:

One of the reasons for mandating winter tires in Québec was to reduce insurance premiums!

Mark in Oshawa

8th December 2010, 23:02

Apparently on Radio 2 they were saying that some insurance companies are classing it as a modification and want to charge some people extra. What a lot of thieving barstuds. When a car is given an insurance group it is given it on the basis of its specification as the manufacturer has specified.

For instance on the 500 Abarth there is an SS pack which gives better brakes, lower suspension and a healthy increase in power. Insurers can not charge you any extra for this as this is part of the specification of the car. This I am 110% sure of.

Mine lists winter tyres as part of the specification. I've put winter tyres on and if any insurance company wants to try and get more money off me because I've taken steps to make myself and other road users safer then they're SOL.
Insurance companies over here are not offering up a break for winter tires. They maybe should, but driver attitude, training and intelligence makes the difference I think in Winter driving...

Also, comparison between winter tyres and summer tyres

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/total_tyre_guide/259462/verdict.html

Winter tyres scored between 100-96.7 all seasons got 95.1 and summers got 76.4. Pretty bloody clear if you ask me. Also quite telling was that the summer tyres took 60 seconds longer on a 100 second lap in the snow.

From das AA -> http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-in-the-uk.html[/QUOTE]

Winter tires scored 100 to 96.7 and then 95.1 for the All Seasons.....and summer tires way back at 76.4? As I figured...winter tires ARE better in the snow..but marginally.

Driver skill, education and experience with snow make a HUGE difference.

We have too many people driving around this part of the world in SUV's who I will see in the ditch WITH winter tires.......

As for storing winter tires/summer tires, I would be SOL unless I put them at my folks place. This apartment hasn't the room for two sets of tires, or even a TIRE......

Mark in Oshawa

8th December 2010, 23:04

Don't think so - they were nearly bald. He was the grader operator on snow clearing and just knew how to drive in those conditions.

As I pointed out...you can get around with a less than ideal car and setup for the conditions if you are good at it. That said, winter tires are never a bad idea in the winter.....just don't have the tire cops going around writing fines......there is enough stupid laws on the books in society that cannot be enforced now...

Roamy

9th December 2010, 06:41

Daniel you should be using slicks and driving in the right lane, taking EKI to the airport :)

Daniel

9th December 2010, 07:09

As I figured...winter tires ARE better in the snow..but marginally.

Compared to all weather tyres yes, but like I said.... very few people here in the UK have all weather tyres and more new cars come with summer tyres which are not good in the snow ;)

Mark

9th December 2010, 19:05

Winter tyres feature on The One Show now.
Should be on iPlayer soon.

Daniel

9th December 2010, 19:16

Winter tyres feature on The One Show now.
Should be on iPlayer soon.
Cheers Mark :)

Drew

9th December 2010, 20:14

Its been solid ice here for over two weeks now, and if you drive with due care and attention, standard tyres are fine. Just reduce your speed and respect the conditions. :)

I'm going to guess that Oxfordshire isn't very hilly then :p :

Daniel

9th December 2010, 21:35

I'm going to guess that Oxfordshire isn't very hilly then :p :

Rather. It's amazing how people just seem to miss the point. It's like bald tyres, if you drive carefully enough bald tyres won't be an issue but is it smart to drive around on bald tyres? Uh no

A.F.F.

9th December 2010, 22:15

There's more snow that I can remember in my life here this year ... And I'm having a blast driving :bounce:

Daniel

9th December 2010, 22:23

There's more snow that I can remember in my life here this year ... And I'm having a blast driving :bounce:
I hear you :D That's the thing, driving in the snow is a blast with the right rubber on rather than being a worrying experience.

donKey jote

9th December 2010, 22:27

I keep getting told off for using the handbrake at junctions and setting a bad example for the son :erm: :arrows: :s :mark:

Daniel

9th December 2010, 22:33

I keep getting told off for using the handbrake at junctions and setting a bad example for the son :arrows: :s :mark:
What's wrong with testing the grip levels? :D I did a very small handbrake turn around the corner at the top of our street last winter with summer tyres on and my parents in the car. They weren't particularly impressed :D

Daniel

10th December 2010, 23:16

Another advantage of winter tyres :p You get to park in the bay where the snow has been piled up and turned to ice which none of the summer tyre wearing cars can get any grip on :p

http://oi56.tinypic.com/15n6b1z.jpg

http://oi52.tinypic.com/1zvzy4n.jpg

I did do a better one today but the picture was crap as I was in a rush so it turned out crap :p

Drew

10th December 2010, 23:21

I would have parked there anyway :p :

Daniel

10th December 2010, 23:21

I would have parked there anyway :p :
You might have got into that one but the one I got into today you wouldn't have :p

driveace

10th December 2010, 23:21

i could have parked my rear wheel drive Merc,where you parked the Fiat,AND got it out again on its summer tyres!!!!!

Brown, Jon Brow

10th December 2010, 23:23

@Daniel. You need to give your car a wash!

donKey jote

10th December 2010, 23:36

@Daniel. You need to give your car a wash!
exactly my thoughts too :laugh:

Daniel

10th December 2010, 23:38

i could have parked my rear wheel drive Merc,where you parked the Fiat,AND got it out again on its summer tyres!!!!!

No, you would have spun your one wheel that's on the ice unless you have an LSD.

@Daniel. You need to give your car a wash!

That I do. Weather should be decent enough to allow for it tomorrow :D

J4MIE

10th December 2010, 23:41

My mum has not been going out for the last few weeks to avoid her putting her car off and scraping it. Not particularly because of the tyres but she must be starting to get on the old side of older :s

It has been a bit of a waste of time as, having new neighbours move into the house across the street today, their removal(delivery) van has lifted it onto the pavement by the rear wheelarch :( We have left it there for the moment so we can take photos in the daylight, it must look a proper sight for anyone driving past!! Thankfully my mum was looking outside at the time and saw it happen before he could drive off.... and also thankfully my sister is good in a crisis and so leapt outside with her camera and a notebook and got him to sign to agree it was his fault :up:

Daniel

10th December 2010, 23:42

J4MIE

10th December 2010, 23:44

Daniel, as you know I am not mechanically minded, it it possible to get an LSD fitted to the average car, I would imagine this would give unever wear in normal dry conditions??

driveace

10th December 2010, 23:47

I personally dont have a limited slip differencial,but maybe my car should have,but its all about the nut behind the wheel!!!
And i am the driver of my car AND know its capabilities,better than you!!
i have driven thousands of miles on icy roads in Canada,Sweden ,France (even towing a caravan)and Finland,in trucks,service barges,and road and rally cars!! Maybe i am short on experience

Daniel

10th December 2010, 23:47

Daniel, as you know I am not mechanically minded, it it possible to get an LSD fitted to the average car, I would imagine this would give unever wear in normal dry conditions??

Certainly is. I post on Fiatforum and a guy who was building a racing Panda got Quaife to build a batch of bespoke diffs. The diff still slips so it's not like a welded diff or anything. Having never driven a car with an LSD (though Caroline's Legacy may have one) I wouldn't know from experience. Donkey Jote will surely be able to say though :)

driveace

10th December 2010, 23:54

Daniel, as you know I am not mechanically minded, it it possible to get an LSD fitted to the average car, I would imagine this would give unever wear in normal dry conditions??

the idea of an LSD is the fact that a clutch in the differential,feels when one wheel is slipping,it then comes into effect and delivers drive to the stationary wheel,opposite the spinning wheel.that is why it is limited.Most cars that have Lsd have then as standard equipment on delivery,but when we were racing saloon cars we used to run locked diffs,so both wheels were driving all the time.

Daniel

10th December 2010, 23:55

the idea of an LSD is the fact that a clutch in the differential,feels when one wheel is slipping,it then comes into effect and delivers drive to the stationary wheel,opposite the spinning wheel.that is why it is limited.Most cars that have Lsd have then as standard equipment on delivery,but when we were racing saloon cars we used to run locked diffs,so both wheels were driving all the time.

Not all LSD's use a clutch arrangement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential

driveace

11th December 2010, 00:13

Not all LSD's use a clutch arrangement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential
Where did i say they were?
i was giving a guy ,who said he had NO idea about LSD,a small amount of knowledge to HELP him understand how they worked

Daniel

11th December 2010, 07:49

Winter tyres feature on The One Show now.
Should be on iPlayer soon.

I often make fun of the One show but that was quite an informative segment and I can imagine just seeing it on the BBC with Dom Littlewood fronting it . It's good to see a well researched and well done segment on the Beeb :up:

I certainly agree that if you're the sort of person who is a light user and drives short distances to work or just to the shops then socks or chains are probably the best idea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00wlpzk/The_One_Show_09_12_2010/

Watch from about 7:30 onwards if you're a Brit :)

Valve Bounce

11th December 2010, 08:47

As I pointed out...you can get around with a less than ideal car and setup for the conditions if you are good at it. That said, winter tires are never a bad idea in the winter.....just don't have the tire cops going around writing fines......there is enough stupid laws on the books in society that cannot be enforced now...

Actually, I purchased two rear Pirelli snow tyres for my VW1500s when I was in the snowy. They had a peculiar pattern at the edge of the treads which acted like chains sorta, and the traction I got from them in snow was incredible. I never used chains on my own car although I did use chains on a couple of occasions on my Snowy Falcon Ute.

I did post this before but it is useful to post it again. Before anyone was permitted to use a Snowy (SMHEA) vehicle, they had to pass a special driving test. One of the conditions was they had to be able to slow down a Land Rover (circa 1960 vintage) without touching the brakes by changing down on the gears from 30 MPH. Although most experts will tell you never to touch the brakes on ice, I found a way of using my brakes by touching them very gently with the toe of my foot and then lifting off and then touching them again repeatedly. I also found that if I was changing down on ice to slow the vehicle, I had to let the clutch out gently.

But then, I loved driving on snow and ice in those days - great fun. Exhilarating!!!!!!!!!!. :eek:

Daniel

11th December 2010, 10:12

Body is galvanized ;)

ioan

11th December 2010, 22:56

This is what happens when you're not prepared for the cold season, have fun:

http://www.break.com/index/icy_roads_in_portland.html

janvanvurpa

12th December 2010, 03:02

Where did i say they were?
i was giving a guy ,who said he had NO idea about LSD,a small amount of knowledge to HELP him understand how they worked

Too bad you gave him an explanation 180 degrees from the way clutch plate diffs work.
I'm always fascinated at the consistancy of "explanations" of how diffs---evidently "sense" slip and then "they....." do something...

Multi-plate diff with preload is a series of clutch discs and plates splined alternately to the fiff case of the sidegears of the diff, The proload and the action of simple rotation puts pressure on the plates and discs progressively locking them hard against each other....

IF when going round a tight corner such as a T junction where different rate of turning is desired IF the rotational difference is enough to overcome the friction between the plates and discs, THEN there'll be some slipping of the plates and discs----until the need for differentiation passes and you're back to drive to both sides...

As an example: in my fwd 1969 Saab, I set the preload to around 95-110 ft/lbs of torque...

That is it is LOCKED with power going to both sides UNTIL the torque "breaks loose" at 95-110 ft/lbs and that is commonly referred to as "Breakaway torque".

My Last Saab 900, with power steering nd a multi-plate diff, i set the break-away torque at around 125-135 ft/lbs.

Swedish Championship contender level guys in Sweden said with FWD cars and PS, they set the torque to min 175 ft/lbs "so if you break and axle or CV you can drive out".

Note that what I contemptuously call "twirly gear" "Torque Sensing" things are useless in snow/ice..

VC diffs work fine in snow and ice if they're fresh and set tighter than the usually come OEM.

Daniel

13th December 2010, 00:35

My Last Saab 900, with power steering nd a multi-plate diff, i set the break-away torque at around 125-135 ft/lbs.

What sort of 900 was it? My old folks have a 1990 900i with various things on it which keep on breaking.

Daniel

14th December 2010, 20:34

One for Donkey Jote to put up on the wall at work ;)

http://oi52.tinypic.com/nzr8eo.jpg

Can anyone (not you Donks!!!!) tell me what's hilariously wrong with this picture? :D

schmenke

14th December 2010, 20:42

Rear wheel drive vehicle :dozey:

(the plate number may indicate the reason... :p : )

Drew

14th December 2010, 20:48

Can anyone (not you Donks!!!!) tell me what's hilariously wrong with this picture? :D

Well it's a step in the right direction. Shame the step would be straight back down the hill though :p :

Daniel

14th December 2010, 21:07

Rear wheel drive vehicle :dozey:

(the plate number may indicate the reason... :p : )
As Bill & Marty would say...... WE HAVE A WEINER!!!!!

odykas

14th December 2010, 21:47

Can anyone (not you Donks!!!!) tell me what's hilariously wrong with this picture? :D

The price of this panzerwagen :devil:

Mark in Oshawa

14th December 2010, 22:10

That fella is clueless....but at least he can steer! He cant get any traction however...lmao...

donKey jote

15th December 2010, 00:01

what a donkey!
I mean, if you only have 2 chains then at least put one on the front and one on the rear eh? :erm: :uhoh: :arrows:

Dave B

15th December 2010, 07:59

Please tell me that car isn't missing chains on the driven wheels! :eek:

Daniel

15th December 2010, 22:56

We've got a dump of snow forecast for tomorrow and into Saturday. I'm hoping it's as bad/good as is being forecast :D

donKey jote

15th December 2010, 23:40

I hope I can fly back home on Friday :s
although it is nice to be by the sunny seaside and work outside in short sleeves in Winter :bandit:

odykas

16th December 2010, 12:13

We've got a dump of snow forecast for tomorrow and into Saturday. I'm hoping it's as bad/good as is being forecast

Daniel: Hello boss. I can't come to the office today due to the weather :(
Boss: Hello Daniel.. what's the problem? :confused:
Daniel: I don't have winter tyres, so I can't drive in the snow :uhoh:
Boss: Ohh.. I see. Please take some time off. :)
Daniel: Thanks boss :p :

Daniel

16th December 2010, 12:17

I have to work the time back though

schmenke

16th December 2010, 14:30

Daniel: Hello boss. I can't come to the office today due to the weather.
Boss: Hello Daniel.. what's the problem?
Daniel: I don't have winter tyres, but I have installed chains, but I still can't seem to drive in the snow.
Boss: Ohh.. I see. Did you install the chains on the drive wheels?.
Daniel: Doh!
Boss: See you at work.

driveace

16th December 2010, 21:11

Drew

16th December 2010, 21:35

Thinking about it, now in Germany you have to have winter tyres after a specific point. Where do the "summer" tyres go when it's winter and the winter ones when it's summer?

Daniel

16th December 2010, 23:57

Well a friend rang me today,his mate wants some 225x50x17 winter tyres(for his Audi A6)but nobody round here has any.Mytyres on the net has ,them advertised,but by phone admit,they are struggling,and lots of the advertised tyres are not available.Drivers seem to be in panic to buy winter tyres,and in some areas there is a shortage of available tyres to be had

I would suggest in most areas that there is little or no stock. Apparently the number of people regularly swapping wheels over is 2% so even if only 3% of people are now fitting them this is a 50% increase in demand.

Personally if I had the money to be splashing out on a nice newish A6 (assuming from the size of the wheels :p ) then rather than risking it in the snow and paying silly prices for those I'd just buy myself a used Panda 4x4. At the moment you're looking at something silly like £800 for a full set of winter tyres then there's a set of wheels and fitting as well! I reckon you could buy the Panda, insure, tax, maintain and run it and still be better off!

I quite fancy a 4x4 Panda and I'm going to do my best to convince Caroline that we need one :p

AndyRAC

17th December 2010, 00:03

I would suggest in most areas that there is little or no stock. Apparently the number of people regularly swapping wheels over is 2% so even if only 3% of people are now fitting them this is a 50% increase in demand.

Personally if I had the money to be splashing out on a nice newish A6 (assuming from the size of the wheels :p ) then rather than risking it in the snow and paying silly prices for those I'd just buy myself a used Panda 4x4. At the moment you're looking at something silly like £800 for a full set of winter tyres then there's a set of wheels and fitting as well! I reckon you could buy the Panda, insure, tax, maintain and run it and still be better off!

I quite fancy a 4x4 Panda and I'm going to do my best to convince Caroline that we need one :p

Why not? Swap it with the 500........ ;)

Daniel

17th December 2010, 00:07

Why not? Swap it with the 500........ ;)
Nah :) 500 is silly cheap to run and if it was to replace anything it would be the Subaru which would become a weekend car ;)

A.F.F.

17th December 2010, 05:36

Daniel

17th December 2010, 07:42

225x50x17 ?? Why on earth ???
You aint gonna pick up no ho's running 195/65 r15's AFF :p

A.F.F.

17th December 2010, 08:01

You aint gonna pick up no ho's running 195/65 r15's AFF :p

It's not the wheels you pick ho's up with, it's the pling pling. :p :

Brown, Jon Brow

17th December 2010, 20:18

After my drive home from work tonight- YES

Daniel

17th December 2010, 21:13

After my drive home from work tonight- YES
Muwhahahaha. One down, only a few more million to go :D

Daniel

18th December 2010, 12:19

Well Daniel you'll be pleased to know I drove my boss's Audi A8 yesterday which he had fitted with winter tyres the night before. I must say I was impressed with how much grip it had in the snow compared to my car without. If we were guaranteed the same level of snow we've had over the last couple of days every winter, then I'd agree that winter tyres are the way forward. It would be abit of a pain fitting them and then in typical British style the snow/ice would go and I'd be jacking the car up again.

Woke up this morning to over a foot of snow and in places its up to my knee's. Us Brits aren't used to this, and theres no way I get get the car out to travel to Tesco and buy 20 loaves of bread, and generally wonder around buying every supply in a panic stricken state.. What am I going to do?

But as Donkey Jote (who works for a large and very reputable European tyre firm who make the tyres fitted to a good proportion of European cars when purchase) says, winter tyres are not just for the snow :) They're for low temperatures. During autumn when it starts to get cooler and is generally a bit damp I can feel a marked decrease in performance from my summer tyres (Bridgestone Potenza RE050A's which I feel offer very very good performance in the summer) and my little 1.2 Fiat 500 starts getting wheelspin which I personally don't feel is something such an underpowered car with 69bhp should do and it also starts to feel a bit vague through the corners and squirrely under hard braking. I'm not talking about driving in snow and ice here, I'm talking about a chilly day or a chilly day with damp roads.

For me this is enough to warrant having different tyres, the performance in the snow and ice is just a very very welcome bonus. We're going out for a drive through Snowdonia today which was apparently badly hit by the weather yesterday and I simply wouldn't dream of doing that on the summer tyres even if the roads were ploughed which I'm sure they will be.

I'm making an assumption but if you've got an A5 then I'm assuming money is not majorly tight ;) I think getting wheels for an A5 will be a bit costly unless you get some cheep off ebay, but the tyres won't be that expensive and at the end of the day 2 sets of tyres just means you delay your next summer tyre purchase by a bit so it ends up not costing you much extra. That's the one major thing that people struggle to comprehend for some reason :crazy: As Donks also says, summer tyres wear more in the winter so your summer tyres will last more miles than they did before. So far my summer tyres have done 16.5k miles and are about 30-40% worn so I would expect them to last another 2 or 3 summers on top of the 1.5 they've already had.

I think a case can definitely be made for them on the basis of them saving you money or at the very least actually costing very little in the long term whilst offering safety and convenience benefits.

If possible, try your bosses car on a damp and cold day above freezing and see what you think about the tyres :) Glad you got the opportunity to give them a try :)

Daniel

18th December 2010, 17:26

A couple of pictures from today.

I would img tag them but people run around screaming like you've sexually assaulted their goat when you upload anything bigger then a 10x10 pixel jpeg around these parts :p

Clicky! :)
http://oi51.tinypic.com/30hpjxs.jpg
http://oi53.tinypic.com/2i03tpx.jpg

Car was absolutely fine in those conditions :up:

Would have gone the whole way up the Llanberis Pass and over the Denbigh Moors but health and safety (Caroline) said no :p

Daniel

18th December 2010, 18:43

Wow not that I'm trying to compete with you but I think South Wales has had slightly more snow than the north and that is rare. Been stuck in the house for most of today watching Part two of The Godfather. Went for a drive and a little walk through the woods earlier, well I say little I got abit disorientated and it took me an hour to get back to somewhere I recognised lol. Everything looks the same when its white.. :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPLcVEoLYEU

Watched your vid. I would say there was almost as much snow as that in Llanberis in parts but nowhere near up to your knees as you said earlier today on another thread :)

Your video had this one of the suggested videos :D
PApZm9-rwFc&NR=1

Do you not have a mapping app on your Android phone to help you find your way around? :)

ioan

18th December 2010, 20:03

I'd say we've had about 20cm on average, but in places where the snow has drifted its up to my knee's. :)

You mean like 25 cm?! :p ;)

A.F.F.

18th December 2010, 20:08

Your video had this one of the suggested videos :D
PApZm9-rwFc&NR=1

This is j-u-s-t unbelievable. Why, why, WHY they keep on braking?

Daniel

18th December 2010, 20:09

You mean like 25 cm?! :p ;)
Are you suggesting that Henners is Bernie Ecclestone? :p

odykas

18th December 2010, 21:23

Your video had this one of the suggested videos :D
PApZm9-rwFc&NR=1

:eek: :laugh:

No tyre can be sufficient in case the driver is an idiot...

Valve Bounce

18th December 2010, 22:46

OK! maybe the guy who put the chains on the front tyres of his Beamer was just trying to avoid this happening. :p :
I know this sounds crazy, but the Volvo 240 I used to own had these huge bumpers front and rear and they were mounted on shock absorbers. Now we know why. :D

Malbec

19th December 2010, 18:38

But as Donkey Jote (who works for a large and very reputable European tyre firm who make the tyres fitted to a good proportion of European cars when purchase) says, winter tyres are not just for the snow :) They're for low temperatures. During autumn when it starts to get cooler and is generally a bit damp I can feel a marked decrease in performance from my summer tyres (Bridgestone Potenza RE050A's which I feel offer very very good performance in the summer) and my little 1.2 Fiat 500 starts getting wheelspin which I personally don't feel is something such an underpowered car with 69bhp should do and it also starts to feel a bit vague through the corners and squirrely under hard braking. I'm not talking about driving in snow and ice here, I'm talking about a chilly day or a chilly day with damp roads.

As the Economist said though, you know what will happen if the government starts pushing people to buy winter tyres because of the weather. The Daily Hate will run headlines like "Filthy Eurocrats force brave Brit drivers to fork out £400 a year on useless tyres". You just can't win...

Daniel

19th December 2010, 18:59

Nope, you really can't. I certainly wouldn't go out without winter tyres in this sort of weather

Valve Bounce

19th December 2010, 21:04

Nope, you really can't. I certainly wouldn't go out without winter tyres in this sort of weather

Having seen the traffic conditions and how most cars on the road are affected, I'd rather not take my car out in that traffic. Some bugger could hit you (see above vid) while you are going nicely yourself.

Mark in Oshawa

20th December 2010, 15:42

Mark in Oshawa

20th December 2010, 15:45

Nope, you really can't. I certainly wouldn't go out without winter tyres in this sort of weather
I would shock you with what you can get away with in this sort of weather. It can be done, just it shouldn't be done....

Buddy of mine drove his Dodge Dakota "Sport" pickup to Kingston, 2 hours east of here Saturday, and we went through snow squalls. The roads were greasy and then snow covered in spots....he has 235/r55 BF Goodrich T/A's..a very much a summer style all around tire...and he never had an issue. IN a PICKUP! I say he is nuts...but he has driven for 30 years and never had an accident. IT CAN be done...I just wish people would learn to handle snow.

That said, If own the pickup, winter tires on on that puppy in December.....

Mark in Oshawa

20th December 2010, 15:48

Watched your vid. I would say there was almost as much snow as that in Llanberis in parts but nowhere near up to your knees as you said earlier today on another thread :)

Your video had this one of the suggested videos :D
PApZm9-rwFc&NR=1

Do you not have a mapping app on your Android phone to help you find your way around? :)

Dopes! It looks like it snowed after an ice storm. If you don't see signs of a salt truck, or sand truck having been out, don't bother going anywhere without Winter tires..and then even then, hang on.....

Daniel

20th December 2010, 18:31

Caroline needs that sense of adventure! Looks like a decent snow, but nothing horrible by my standards. That said, I take it half the locals are acting like the world came to an end!

Well that was in a town which is a bit more used to snowfall so everyone did seem to be dealing with it OK :) But yes, Caroline does need more of a sense of adventure :p To be fair to her it's the first time she's been in the Fiat in snowy conditions so I can understand why she was a little bit worried.

I would shock you with what you can get away with in this sort of weather. It can be done, just it shouldn't be done....

Buddy of mine drove his Dodge Dakota "Sport" pickup to Kingston, 2 hours east of here Saturday, and we went through snow squalls. The roads were greasy and then snow covered in spots....he has 235/r55 BF Goodrich T/A's..a very much a summer style all around tire...and he never had an issue. IN a PICKUP! I say he is nuts...but he has driven for 30 years and never had an accident. IT CAN be done...I just wish people would learn to handle snow.

That said, If own the pickup, winter tires on on that puppy in December.....

It's the age old thing, "I managed without them so I don't need them" which to me just doesn't make sense. If you go out in a car on a journey you want to know that you're as close as possible to 100% sure that your car can do the journey. The only thing that's going to stop the Fiat is the depth of snow.

I quite fancy one of these :D

http://imganuncios.mitula.net/used_2006_fiat_panda_for_sale_92375260825134092.jp g

Valve Bounce

20th December 2010, 21:42

I would shock you with what you can get away with in this sort of weather. It can be done, just it shouldn't be done....

Buddy of mine drove his Dodge Dakota "Sport" pickup to Kingston, 2 hours east of here Saturday, and we went through snow squalls. The roads were greasy and then snow covered in spots....he has 235/r55 BF Goodrich T/A's..a very much a summer style all around tire...and he never had an issue. IN a PICKUP! I say he is nuts...but he has driven for 30 years and never had an accident. IT CAN be done...I just wish people would learn to handle snow.

That said, If own the pickup, winter tires on on that puppy in December.....

I agree with you. I had the advantage of practicing on ice and snow after the graders had pushed 3 foot high windrows on the side of the road. Thus I was able to establish the limits of adhesion/drive without getting into trouble. I found the most difficult conditions was black ice, which gives very little warning.

But I want to say again that no matter how well one can drive in such conditions, there are many others on the road who simply cannot.

Mark

21st December 2010, 09:57

A stripy jumper and hair which is far too long is a requirement too.

21st December 2010, 13:28

http://citrons.lv/hbd1 EASY MONEY, JUST WRITE YOUR E-MAIL!

Daniel

21st December 2010, 19:53

Having seen the traffic conditions and how most cars on the road are affected, I'd rather not take my car out in that traffic. Some bugger could hit you (see above vid) while you are going nicely yourself.

As silly as it sounds I'm not that bothered about that. When the roads are bad no one is really travelling fast enough to do me any serious bodily harm and I've got gap cover (and no I didn't pay the stupid price my dealer was asking, I shopped around on the interweb) so should the 500 be written off between now and July 2013 we get what the insurance company pays out + up to £7500 from another insurance company to cover the gap between what the car insurance pays out and what a new 500 costs at the time (not what we paid) which is good because when VAT goes up a replacement for our car will cost £1500 more than what we paid for it.

Whilst of course I'd prefer not to be crashed in, it's not something which worries me all that much tbh.

GridGirl

21st December 2010, 20:26

Daniel

21st December 2010, 20:28

I had constant gap cover between March 2002 and December 2009 due to a combination of buying new cars and administrative mess ups. There was a big part of me that loved having gap cover when the car had been paid for for two years. :D

Daniel, I hope you got a good interest rate if you are paying for you car over 5 years.
Paying over 3 years. I think we only financed about 7200 and if you can't afford to pay that off in 3 years you can't really afford a new car IMHO :)

Gap insurance just plain makes sense (unless you buy it from the dealer!) because you don't need to worry about getting crashed into and being out of pocket.

GridGirl

21st December 2010, 20:47

How does your gap insurance work then? July 2013 is another 2 and a half years away. I've only ever purchased gap insurance for the period the car was under finance. I did have it 2 years longer on my old 206 but that was only because Peugeot had messed up with the gap policies in 2002 and internal auditing found the errors with the policies a couple of years later. I got the two years extra as a goodwill gesture due to them messing up.

The gap insurance on my ST was purchased third party but was around the same price as what I'd paid on the 206 5 years earlier. How much do dealers try and charge you these days?

Daniel

21st December 2010, 21:15

How does your gap insurance work then? July 2013 is another 2 and a half years away.

Well my gap cover isn't against the finance per se. Basically it's against the value of the replacement car. Basically we've got up to £7500 cover. So basically if when the car is written off it's deemed to be worth £6k and a new one costs £13k then the car insurance pays out 6k and the gap insurance pays out 7k so we can get a new car of exactly the same spec. Or we can go out and buy a 3k car and put 10k in the bank or whatever but at least we've got lots of options open. We're covered for 4 years because in the first year the car insurance covered new for old and then the cover runs for 3 years after that so for a total of 4 years.

How much do dealers try and charge you these days?

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much is all I can say! :) We paid £202.36 and I'm sure we were offered less cover for about 3 times the price ;)

We'll probably never buy another new car again (unless a good deal comes along!) but I wouldn't dream of buying a new car without gap insurance.

Daniel

21st December 2010, 21:29

Haha really? Most Panda owners I've seen have been in their seventies and usually loading pot plants into its surprisingly spacious boot in the car parks of garden centres. I would say clothing of the grey and beige variety would be standard issue .. :p

PS: A trilby on the parcel shelf is also common as you tend to notice these things whilst following them at 10mph through Chipping Norton.. :eek:

Very true. But the 4x4's don't tend to be driven by coffin dodgers like the 1.1's and 1.2's :p

Prime coffindodger stuff this ;)
http://cars.cozot.co.uk/coches/uk/2010/11/10/109478.jpg

GridGirl

21st December 2010, 21:42

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much is all I can say! :) We paid £202.36 and I'm sure we were offered less cover for about 3 times the price ;)

We'll probably never buy another new car again (unless a good deal comes along!) but I wouldn't dream of buying a new car without gap insurance.

You paid around the same price as me when I purchased from a dealer in 2002 and third party in 2006. The price hadn't changed at all really in the 5 years between each time I bought it. You had me worried for a minute that I'd been completely ripped off. I never bothered asking Mr Ford how much it was when I bought the ST as I didn't take their finance. Sounds like a nice little earner for the sales person if thats how much it costs now. Did the £400 you saved pay for your winter tyres?. ;) :p :)

Daniel

21st December 2010, 22:00

You paid around the same price as me when I purchased from a dealer in 2002 and third party in 2006. The price hadn't changed at all really in the 5 years between each time I bought it. You had me worried for a minute that I'd been completely ripped off. I never bothered asking Mr Ford how much it was when I bought the ST as I didn't take their finance. Sounds like a nice little earner for the sales person if thats how much it costs now. Did the £400 you saved pay for your winter tyres?. ;) :p :)

More than paid for the winter tyres :D They were £208.80 :p

I think garages earn more from a gap insurance sale than they do from most car sales......