The Rise of Felipe Massa [Archive]

Hawkmoon

22nd February 2007, 22:18

In a quiet moment the other day I got to thinking about the sudden turn around in young Massa's career. He's gone from that Brazillian guy who wrecks Saubers to Ferrari's potential next world champion in the space of 12 months.

Just about everybody, both on this forum and in the press, is including Massa in the fight with Alonso and Raikkonen for the WDC. Now I know Massa won his first races last year and had some very good drives where he beat Schumi but so did Barrichello and nobody ever talked about Barrichello as a contender for the WDC.

I mean, 12 months ago everybody, and that includes myself, were questioning Ferrari's decision to give the guy a drive and were saying things like 'he's only a one year stop-gap' etc. The consensus was basically that Jean Todt was insane and was only giving Massa the drive because he wanted to do his son a favour.

At the end of last season there was talk of Massa having the edge over Raikkonen in the early stages of the season but the Finn would destroy the Brazilian once he got to grips with the team and car. Now, Kimi's going to have to beat Alonso and Massa to win the title.

I don't get it. Massa had a good season in a car that was as fast, if not faster, than any on the grid. He won his maiden race but he also made plenty of mistakes. Remember Bahrain and Monaco?

So tell me. What makes people think that Massa has what it takes to beat a defending double world champion and arguably the fastest guy on the grid?

BTCC2

22nd February 2007, 22:29

Felipe Massa really matured and became a much better and reliable driver in the 2nd half of last season. I don't think h'll become world champion next season as I think he still has a lot to learn, but in 2008 if he's still with Ferrari then I think he will become WDC no problem.

Hawkmoon

22nd February 2007, 22:42

The thing that is nagging me is that how often has a driver gone from being a crash-aholic to a potential world champion in a single season? Some drivers enter F1 and are marked from day one as champion material. Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Senna and even Jean Alesi. Some get there, some don't. Massa has never really shown anything that makes you think of him in those terms.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see him win it as I don't care which Ferrari driver wins the title as long as one of them does. I think you might be right about 2008 but I just can't see it for this year. It's too soon and we have no idea how he will handle the pressure of a title fight as he's never been there. Alonso and Raikkonen have. Advantage them.

PSfan

22nd February 2007, 23:15

In a quiet moment the other day I got to thinking about the sudden turn around in young Massa's career. He's gone from that Brazillian guy who wrecks Saubers to Ferrari's potential next world champion in the space of 12 months.

Hmmmm, And during my quiet moments, I ussually try not to think about Massa. :p :

Just about everybody, both on this forum and in the press, is including Massa in the fight with Alonso and Raikkonen for the WDC. Now I know Massa won his first races last year and had some very good drives where he beat Schumi but so did Barrichello and nobody ever talked about Barrichello as a contender for the WDC.

Barrichello was never considered a WDC contender because when he was in a fast car, He had Schumcher as a team mate.

I mean, 12 months ago everybody, and that includes myself, were questioning Ferrari's decision to give the guy a drive and were saying things like 'he's only a one year stop-gap' etc. The consensus was basically that Jean Todt was insane and was only giving Massa the drive because he wanted to do his son a favour.

Everybody? Massa has pretty much always had a Ferrari behind him, being choosen to replace Rubens was no suprise to me.

At the end of last season there was talk of Massa having the edge over Raikkonen in the early stages of the season but the Finn would destroy the Brazilian once he got to grips with the team and car. Now, Kimi's going to have to beat Alonso and Massa to win the title.

More and more people are suggesting that Kimi's reliability issues at McLeran where of his own making. You also have people like JV questioning his work ethics, So as long as Ferrari can develop a title contender that Massa wouldn't be fighting for the championship. Even more likely if he can get the upper hand on Kimi early in the season.

I don't get it. Massa had a good season in a car that was as fast, if not faster, than any on the grid. He won his maiden race but he also made plenty of mistakes. Remember Bahrain and Monaco?

Schumacher proved last year that even a 7 time champion is capable of making mistakes in a race.

So tell me. What makes people think that Massa has what it takes to beat a defending double world champion and arguably the fastest guy on the grid?

Simply put, this is F1 and if Massa wins the championship over Alonso, it will probably be because A) Ferrari had a supirior car over McLeran, and Kimi didn't perform up to expectations. and B) Even with Alonso the McLeran cars are to unreliable to challenge for championships.

But I would also like to add, You could have thrown almost anyone into that second Ferrari, and they would likely be considered a potential champion for 07 for the basic that they will not by racing against MIchael.

ratonmacias

22nd February 2007, 23:28

the problem now is that drivers are brought in too quick thats why now they need to really have a team behind them to allow them to make many mistakes while they learn.

ferrari invested in massa 2002 2003 2004 and 2005 until he came good in 2006.

Roamy

23rd February 2007, 03:17

how old is massa

blakebeatty

23rd February 2007, 04:09

i would LOVE (LLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOVVVVVEEEEEE) to see Massa outshine Kimi "Stripper Jerk" Raikonnen

leopard

23rd February 2007, 04:21

i told my friend, Massa has better gesture than Michael on an advertisement of Bridgestone and i like it

Hawkmoon

23rd February 2007, 04:59

how old is massa

He was born on 25/04/1981 so he is almost 26. He's actually 18 months younger than Raikkonen who was born in October 1979.

Roamy

23rd February 2007, 05:04

Thats what I thought - He is just coming into prime time so we will see how he does.. There is a lot more to winning a championship than just raw speed.
Alonso was a exception to the rule I think.

Hawkmoon

23rd February 2007, 05:18

Thats what I thought - He is just coming into prime time so we will see how he does.. There is a lot more to winning a championship than just raw speed.
Alonso was a exception to the rule I think.

He is still young. 2007 will be his sixth year in F1, though only his fifth in a racing capacity.

What surprises me is the surge in support for him since the end of the season. I wonder if his win in Brazil is still fresh in people's minds and is colouring some perceptions of him?

I don't actually think he can beat Raikkonen consistently enough over the course of an entire season. I think he will beat him on occasion, just as he did Schumcaher but in equal machinery I think the Finn will prove to be too quick.

Roamy

23rd February 2007, 05:23

well I was thinking that too until JV said otherwise. So respecting Jv I will hold judgement for a few races.

Mifune

23rd February 2007, 05:48

i never doubted he had talent, and we was at least fun to watch.
i think he was heavily criticised early in his career by members of the forum who are somewhat adverse to excitement, for some reason he upset their delicate armchair-expert sensibilities.(F1 is all about strategy dont you know)
dunno if he`s got what it takes to go all the way though.

Donney

23rd February 2007, 10:59

I won't say anithing till the season starts, I think he is shown he is a very good second driver, but we don't how he will cope with the pressure of having to deliver consistently.

jens

23rd February 2007, 11:07

Massa is a good example of a driver, who is underrated in a mediocre team and suddenly people think someone has become a better driver after getting a better car! Well yes, he has learned a lot at Ferrari, but his raw speed has always been good, I suspect that he lacked of physical strength and endurance in his early years in F1 that prevented him to shine even more. But... when in 2002 Peter Sauber said that Massa is as talented as Räikkönen, then he was laughed at. And still in 2005 no-one was talking about him. I remember that I made a thread about Felipe in the summer of 2005 in one forum and asked for people's thoughts about him and the answers were mainly, that
- oh he is nothing special;
- just a usual mid-packed driver for the whole career;
- he'll be lucky to get a seat in a top team one day;
- maybe he even won't have a drive next year in F1 (because Heidfeld was about to take his Sauber-BMW seat);
- etc, etc.

Therefore - do not tend to underrate drivers just because they don't have a top car! As many consider Massa's performance in 2006 as a positive surprise, then every season there are so-called surprises, which usually happen due to the fact that some guy at last gets a competitive car and then many react so that "Oh I even couldn't imagine that he can be that good!" Less than a month to go - we just have to wait and see, who is gonna be a 'surprise' this season. Even Felipe might be among "surprises" if he can at least match Kimi, which would be unexpected to many.

But all in all, I haven't recently put much emphasis on Kimi vs Felipe possible duel. Maybe I don't care that much and think that will the better one win! :)

leopard

23rd February 2007, 11:37

After driving the first quarter last year i oftently saw him alternately right before or after Michael (unless wet races), we can make a prognosis if you think Kimi is equal to Michael, Massa could be a danger team mate for Kimi.

This two guys have similar agresiveness on the track, or Massa could be smoother a bit? He takes adventage from this being his second year driving for Ferrari, while Kimi has a huge experience driving another good car despite some people said it has poor reliability.

Can't wait until the real race commenced and we'll see which Ferrari boy will compete for the title, if anything goes naturally i bet Alonso and Massa the first group, and Buton/Kimi behind them.

sezix

23rd February 2007, 11:44

He joined Formula 1 too early. JV knows this and no praises him and has quite some respect for him. Massa is my current favourite Formula 1 driver, will be very interesting to see him agains Kimi.
Brazil 2007 was quite something!

wedge

23rd February 2007, 15:46

Massa is a good example of a driver, who is underrated in a mediocre team and suddenly people think someone has become a better driver after getting a better car! Well yes, he has learned a lot at Ferrari, but his raw speed has always been good, I suspect that he lacked of physical strength and endurance in his early years in F1 that prevented him to shine even more. But... when in 2002 Peter Sauber said that Massa is as talented as Räikkönen, then he was laughed at. And still in 2005 no-one was talking about him. I remember that I made a thread about Felipe in the summer of 2005 in one forum and asked for people's thoughts about him and the answers were mainly, that
- oh he is nothing special;
- just a usual mid-packed driver for the whole career;
- he'll be lucky to get a seat in a top team one day - maybe he even won't have a drive next year in F1 (because Heidfeld was about to take his Sauber-BMW seat);
- etc, etc.

I wouldn't say he was under-rated but rather a very immature driver.

No doubt the raw speed was there but the amount of time he succumbed to 'red-mist' and trashing the Sauber has been countless. Also the amount of times that I laughed whenever I saw Massa waving his fists in the air when the car infront was a few hundreds metres away looked almost pathetic.

The other surprising thing is that it has taken a good few years for Massa to mature. For sure, if Massa had a different management team, Massa would be in A1GP by now.

Big Ben

23rd February 2007, 16:18

At first I was happy with Massa signing for Ferrari. I said to myself: "good...! a ferrari driven by a moron is always a good news for me" I have to say that in the meantime I have changed my mind. I saw him handling Schu pretty well when he was allowed...

DimitraF1

25th February 2007, 00:49

ferrari spend so much money to get raikkonen...they will never let massa beat kimi , and if massa is faster they will use their usual tricks..ferrari rolls

kalasend

25th February 2007, 21:37

ferrari spend so much money to get raikkonen...they will never let massa beat kimi , and if massa is faster they will use their usual tricks..ferrari rolls

If Massa truly becomes more consistent in winning than Raikkonen, I don't think Ferrari will be stupid enough to trash Massa just because they paid more for Raikkonen. In MS era, although Barichello/Irvine can be faster sometimes, but they can't match MS in terms of winning consistently. The #1/#2 status is based on probabilities of winning, not the cost. Bottom line, money spent is for the goal of winning.

Although...it's only slim probability that Massa can be consistently winning over Raikkonen, except if Raikkonen is really a "car-breaker". With a Ferrari he can no longer find excuse in the reliability department.

Roamy

26th February 2007, 02:22

This will be Massa's year to shine. In his career he has not been slow and has raced with the best and held his own.

leopard

26th February 2007, 03:03

Alonso or Button and maybe Kimi are the greatest drivers of F1 currently, but i'd rather stand for step son like Massa to chalange the title

f1rocks

26th February 2007, 03:21

leopard

26th February 2007, 04:33

I admit it but he is not bad either, i talked about support and expectation, usually there is reason why should expect something and support someone, and i see it is possible, he is a hard-worker that sometime more important than skill itself.

Roamy

26th February 2007, 05:52

Massa is not WDC material. He got badly trashed by MS this year. He is really bad in the rain. I like him as a person, but I dont see him being a WDC this year. Testing times is no indication about him being WDC. Kimi will beat him easily....

Not yet proven. All efforts at Ferrari were for MS. This year Massa will have the car and attention he deserves. If Kimi kicks his butt then I will agree. However on this one I am going to reserve judgement until a few races.

Actually I recall a race at hockenhiem where if memory serves correctly he was brilliant in the wet and drying conditions. maybe you could be more specific in a history of wet races for massa.

gracias

leopard

26th February 2007, 06:34

I think he was referring the wet race of Monza, the extremely worse i could remember, the rest wet races weren't worst than it.

The more he tries wet races i think he will improve how to get better with it, obviously a matter of time.

jens

26th February 2007, 12:52

What concerns wet, then in 2006 Shanghai qualifying Massa was running well and during the first two sessions was making faster times than Schumi, but at the end of the second session in drying conditions Ferrari let Schumi to make his last attempt to get into Top10 and Felipe had to stay in the pits not to take that "vacant Top10 position" away...

ioan

26th February 2007, 16:40

jens

26th February 2007, 17:44

Because there was no more place for Massa on the track or what?
Why would Ferrari not want both drivers in the top 10?

Remember, Michael on his last attempt managed 9th fastest time, so he was really close to falling out. Before this attempt Felipe and Michael were somewhere 12th-14th, if I remember correctly. If Felipe had also driven in the last minute and he and also someone else had made a faster time, then it would have been over for MS.

It was a risky situation and before the last minute in those conditions it was clear that at best one Ferrari can manage into Top10 and even that seemed unlikely. So better give the opportunity to get into Top10 to the driver, who was fighting for the WDC title. I remember Felipe watching Michael's last attempt in the garage.

wmcot

27th February 2007, 06:23

Funny how times change and predictions can be so wrong! I was at the USGP in 2004 when, at a charity auction, two autographed driving suits were auctioned for charity. One was Button's and one was Massa's. Matt Bishop referred to Button's as belonging to the next WDC and Massa's as belonging to someone who would be driving a cab next year (2005)...

...Right on again, Bish!!!

ioan

27th February 2007, 08:50

Remember, Michael on his last attempt managed 9th fastest time, so he was really close to falling out. Before this attempt Felipe and Michael were somewhere 12th-14th, if I remember correctly. If Felipe had also driven in the last minute and he and also someone else had made a faster time, then it would have been over for MS.

It was a risky situation and before the last minute in those conditions it was clear that at best one Ferrari can manage into Top10 and even that seemed unlikely. So better give the opportunity to get into Top10 to the driver, who was fighting for the WDC title. I remember Felipe watching Michael's last attempt in the garage.

I doubt that any team would sacrifice the chance to get both drivers into the top 10 just for the possibility to get ONLY 1 of them in there. Remember that they can't know in advance that MS will be 9th after his attempt.

ArrowsFA1

27th February 2007, 09:06

In a quiet moment the other day I got to thinking about the sudden turn around in young Massa's career. He's gone from that Brazillian guy who wrecks Saubers to Ferrari's potential next world champion in the space of 12 months...So tell me. What makes people think that Massa has what it takes to beat a defending double world champion and arguably the fastest guy on the grid?
Amazing what stepping into a winning car can do for a reputation eh ;)

Seriously though, Massa has improved since the days when he seemed to have trouble keeping the steering wheel pointing straight ahead! Then again, having been around since 2002 he should have done, and he can hardly fail to have learned from his time with team-MS at Ferrari. But racing as pupil/support to MS will be very different to competing with Kimi, and if he has retained any of the weaknesses we've seen from him in the past, they are likely to be exposed.

While Massa's improvement has impressed me, he remains more Takuma Sato-like than the successor to MS's crown. The only difference being that Taku has an Aguri to show off what talent he has.

raphael123

27th February 2007, 11:30

I think Massa is a solid driver. If he makes the same improvements this year, at the same rate this year then he could very well beat Kimi. Though then again, I think Massa is a driver who is quite sensitive, and I think he could also crack and completely falter. I don't know is the answer.

Though last year, especially after some rookie kind mistakes, he did an outstanding job of supporting Michael, and was more or less equal to Michael except in the rain. I'm not sure if this shows how good Massa is, or if it shows Michael wasn't the driver he once was. Saying that, the Ferrari by the end of the season was so dominate I think the majority of the drivers on the field could have won a race. I doubt the Schumacher of the 90's and early 00's would have lost out on that title last year to a 25yr old with an inferior car for the majority of the season.

airshifter

27th February 2007, 14:11

Massa has improved and he's a good driver, but I can't see him challenging Kimi at all. He remains a "B List" driver in my view, which still holds a lot of talent and ability.

leopard

28th February 2007, 02:49

Though last year, especially after some rookie kind mistakes, he did an outstanding job of supporting Michael, and was more or less equal to Michael except in the rain. I'm not sure if this shows how good Massa is, or if it shows Michael wasn't the driver he once was. Saying that, the Ferrari by the end of the season was so dominate I think the majority of the drivers on the field could have won a race.

This might apply to everyone who drive Ferrari will make you get impressed as if they drive more than their ability. As a winning team they have a solid management in every aspect determining the final result of the race.

I doubt the Schumacher of the 90's and early 00's would have lost out on that title last year to a 25yr old with an inferior car for the majority of the season.
This is because the 25 y/o is not an inferion driver

wmcot

28th February 2007, 06:17

I doubt the Schumacher of the 90's and early 00's would have lost out on that title last year to a 25yr old with an inferior car for the majority of the season.

I'm not so sure the Renault was really inferior to the Ferrari. {Fisi's was, but not Alonso's :) }

Jaws

28th February 2007, 06:29

Massa will have his fair share of offs this year from pushing the car to it's edge. That's why I like the guy. Hope he does well

raphael123

28th February 2007, 14:04

I'm not so sure the Renault was really inferior to the Ferrari. {Fisi's was, but not Alonso's :) }

I think it was. If you take away Massa's driver errors he would have been miles infront of Fisi. Fisi made mistakes, but not to the same degree.

I think Michael would have won the title in 2006 if he was as good as he once was, because his car was the class of the field overall, though Renault had an edge at the start.

Roamy

28th February 2007, 14:22

Oh now this is nice - real freaking cool Toad.

Massa - come over here and look in your lunch box - see my steamer for you.

Ferrari chief Jean Todt says the Italian team never considered world champion Fernando Alonso to replace Michael Schumacher.

The German seven-time champion retired at the end of last season, and he has been replaced by Finn Kimi Raikkonen at the Maranello squad.

Todt claims he chose Raikkonen over Alonso because he felt the Finn would fit better at Ferrari, although the Frenchman says both men are at the same level.

The team boss also admitted Ferrari came close to signing Alonso as a test driver a few years ago.

"I believe that Michael, Kimi and Alonso were the three best drivers during last season," Todt told Auto, Motor und Sport magazine in an interview.

"In the case of Raikkonen and Alonso I had to decide for one of them. Ferrari never spoke with Alonso. I chose Kimi. Both are on the same level, but Kimi fits better with Ferrari and with me.

"We spoke with Alonso's manager a few years ago and we were close to signing a test driver deal, but it didn't happen. But that is in the past."

ioan

28th February 2007, 14:43

What's your problem fousto?

Tazio

28th February 2007, 15:35

Massa is making it a habit!
I know it's only practice. Bla, bla, bla!

Roamy

28th February 2007, 16:42

What's your problem fousto?

you are acknowledging that Massa is inferior to Rak??????

Don't think that has been proven yet

ioan

28th February 2007, 21:00

you are acknowledging that Massa is inferior to Rak??????

Don't think that has been proven yet

No I don't! In fact I hope Felipe comes out on top. But why are you so in rage?

Osella

28th February 2007, 21:05

I think a lot of people hear (or read) the name Massa and think 'Sauber, 2003'. Ok, so the Ferrari was a really good car last year, but it was ( as shown by Michael Schumacher) still a car designed around the usual Ferrari/Byrne principles of design, which make the most of the fact it oversteers more than it understeers, and that helps the driver's style. The last time Massa had a car like that, he threw it at the scenery, but he didn't do that in '06. He just isn't the same driver, he has learned! Ferrari doesn't hire anyone as a test driver in the middle of a huuuuge rule change (single-tyre rule 04-05) who crashes the car all the time.

Put it this way, every team boss in F1 ever has always said it's much easier to make a quick driver consistent, than to make a consistent driver quick! What we are seeing with Massa is that stage where he is still quick, and is consistent. It's not 2003 and he's not in a Sauber!

If the driver does not learn this consistency he is unreliable and prone to errors even when not running on the edge, we saw this with Alesi all through his career even in the DTM! That is the difference between potential and evidence. In Massa we are seeing evidence combined with potential, same as Raikkonen. Let's just say this year will be a challenge for them both, but that may prove to be too much of a challenge for Ferrari to balance this with their own needs as a team without a definitive focal point for the team, such as Schumacher. I can't see either driver providing this at the present time.

I can quite easily see 4/5 drivers battling for this year's title, but I for one would definitely include Massa in that bunch :up: Hope so anyway!

futuretiger9

28th February 2007, 21:46

Massa should flourish even more this year, with the continuing spur of competition from Kimi. What was it that Mario Andretti once said - you can tidy up speed, but you can't speed up tidiness. Perhaps that phrase applies to Massa more than most.

race aficionado

1st March 2007, 04:20

I am rooting for Massa.
If the team does it's job, Massa will be the new champ.

Shalafi

1st March 2007, 07:24

If the team does it's job, Massa will be the new champ.

Based on what? Massa is better than Kimi? Dream on...

Heh...you guys will get sooooo disappointed during the season.

555-04Q2

1st March 2007, 08:34

Based on what? Massa is better than Kimi? Dream on...

Heh...you guys will get sooooo disappointed during the season.

And Kimi is better because he has won 0 WDC after numerous seasons with Mclaren :?:

Massa is cleaning up the lazy drunkard Kimi during testing and hopefully will carry this form into the race calendar.

Go Massa :up:

ArrowsFA1

1st March 2007, 08:37

If the team does it's job, Massa will be the new champ.
Brave words RA :) It'll be quite something if you're proved right :s mokin:

DonJippo

1st March 2007, 09:21

And Kimi is better because he has won 0 WDC after numerous seasons with Mclaren :?:

Massa is cleaning up the lazy drunkard Kimi during testing and hopefully will carry this form into the race calendar.

Go Massa :up:

Sure....

pino

1st March 2007, 12:38

If the team does it's job, Massa will be the new champ.

race amigo, Ferrari always does the job, so it will be up to Massa...and Kimi ;)

race aficionado

1st March 2007, 15:03

race amigo, Ferrari always does the job, so it will be up to Massa...and Kimi ;)
It will be very interesting to see the car reliability of BOTH cars.
Remember how Ruben's car was the one that almost always went kaputs.

Michael's positive reliability ratio must be another of his many records.

Only time will tell on this one and I hope both drivers get equall treatment from their team.

race
:s mokin:

Gannex

2nd March 2007, 02:17

. . .the lazy drunkard Kimi. . .
Now 555, remember, this is a family forum, and there are Finns reading the board. Watch your language, please.

Juppe

2nd March 2007, 05:52

Now 555, remember, this is a family forum, and there are Finns reading the board. Watch your language, please.

Let him have his fun, while it lasts... I'm quite happy to rub it in, when the season starts. :D

555-04Q2

2nd March 2007, 10:40

Just getting the blood boiling for the start of the season boys ;) Makes life more...interesting on the forum :p :

SGWilko

2nd March 2007, 11:31

I think it was. If you take away Massa's driver errors he would have been miles infront of Fisi. Fisi made mistakes, but not to the same degree.

I think Michael would have won the title in 2006 if he was as good as he once was, because his car was the class of the field overall, though Renault had an edge at the start.

I quite like Massa. In fact, now Schumacher is retired, I'd be happy to support Ferrari. And this is not MS bashing, he just rubbed me up the wrong way with his arrogance, and his driving into people tactics. I don't despute he was one of the best drivers though, I just never liked the guy.

And, as a parallel with Senna, at least Senna admitted he rammed Prost on purpose, has MS admitted to the Hill/Villeneuve stuff? So I cannot see MS being revered in years to come like Senna is....

f1rocks

3rd March 2007, 02:53

race aficionado

3rd March 2007, 03:32

Guys. Please dont dig too much into testing. Look at Massa's history. He is just way too inconsistent. There is no way he can beat Kimi over the full season. Unless the F2007 becomes like the F2004 and Kimi screws up too much, I just cant see Massa becoming WDC.

Over the course of a complete race, Massa just does not have the consistency. His lap times will show that he is not WDC material. Mark my words Felipe is just not good enough to win WDC.

Let's wait and see F1rocks, all we can do is wait and see.
What we do know for sure is that it's going to be dam interesting.

This new season, with all it's changes is a wonderful thing for us that go nuts with F1.
I can't wait for those red lights to go green and see the cars go for that first corner . . . .
Can't wait.

:s mokin:

jjanicke

3rd March 2007, 04:46

"Massa out-paces(beats pants off) Kimi again!"

Massa is making it a habit!

I know it's only practice. Bla, bla, bla!

I wouldn't blame it on practice. Massa has been running the latest spec Aero, intended for Australia. Seems to be a good step up from the debut spec aero.

Kimi has been pretty close to Massa in all testing and most of the time in either year old, or old spec equipment.

From what I read the only time Kimi got to run the Aussie spec aero was Wednesday afternoon. All fast times have been set in the morning, including massa's.

Think about that for a little before jumping to conclusion...

Tazio

3rd March 2007, 05:31

I wouldn't blame it on practice. Massa has been running the latest spec Aero, intended for Australia. Seems to be a good step up from the debut spec aero.

Kimi has been pretty close to Massa in all testing and most of the time in either year old, or old spec equipment.

From what I read the only time Kimi got to run the Aussie spec aero was Wednesday afternoon. All fast times have been set in the morning, including massa's.

Think about that for a little before jumping to conclusion...

quite right, i did jump the gun. in fact i don't belirve that kimi has even run a quali setup in practice. perhaps in the eyes of ferrari massa needs the practice more. we shall see.

wmcot

3rd March 2007, 05:57

Never write Kimi off! How many times did he drive the tires off a fuel-laden McLaren from back to front in the field because of the Merc engine's frailty? Kimi can drive a race car...if the car can stay together! Single lap times are pretty meaningless - hasn't Badoer even broken lap records at Fiorano in the past from time to time?

ioan

3rd March 2007, 17:06

Single lap times are pretty meaningless - hasn't Badoer even broken lap records at Fiorano in the past from time to time?

Not really.

ioan

3rd March 2007, 17:08

I can't wait for those red lights to go green and see the cars go for that first corner . . . .
Can't wait.

Poor RA, you might be left waiting for a good moment, given that in F1 the lights do not go green anymore, they just turn the red lights off... :p :

Dazz9908

4th March 2007, 08:02

They also call an active track a Green Light condition.

ioan

4th March 2007, 09:20

They also call an active track a Green Light condition.

What would be do without you, smart ass!

Ranger

4th March 2007, 09:29

I'd be surprised if Kimi can't beat Massa for most of the year. But that's just based on what's been proven over the course of the last 2 years of racing, and not on the off-season.

futuretiger9

4th March 2007, 09:56

Having an improving Massa in the team should help Kimi, as it will help to keep him focussed and motivated. Both drivers will be forced to keep raising their game.

Garry Walker

4th March 2007, 22:17

Massa will easily beat Kimi, I predicted that that will happen already last year. In fact, I actually made a bet with someone here on that, if only i could remember who it was and what was it on.

Juppe

5th March 2007, 07:16

Juppe

5th March 2007, 17:15

Massa will easily beat Kimi, I predicted that that will happen already last year. In fact, I actually made a bet with someone here on that, if only i could remember who it was and what was it on.

Ok, found it - the conversation went like this:

Sounds like a bet to me!

Let's say, that after four races, if Massa has got more points, I lose and vice versa, if Kimi has got more points, you lose?

How does that sound?

my suggestion is that the loser of the bet will have to post a thread saying "im stupid" and in the text will have to admit that he doesnt know anything about women, sex or racing and admit that winner of the bet is a much smarter man

Sounds fun, Its a deal!

(I don't even have to lie all that much, if I lose - which, of course, I will not.)

awesome, but to be honest id like to make the terms much worse and cruel - i know.

the loser will have to admit he likes anthony davidson

but i think thats probably a bit too cruel.

relax ant fans, i was only joking!

No problem there, although I have to admit that I have no strong opinion for or against Anthony - but how could you hate such a small guy - I mean 56 kg / 160 cm? He is tiny.

Garry Walker

5th March 2007, 21:03

Awesome :D :D :D :D :D

btw: i didnt think the old motorsport forum archives werent available anymore?

Juppe

5th March 2007, 21:36

Awesome :D :D :D :D :D

btw: i didnt think the old motorsport forum archives werent available anymore?

I'm not sure if they really are, but the "Massa" thread sort of lingers there still:

http://archive.motorsportforums.com/vb2/showthread.php?threadid=126591&perpage=20&display=&pagenumber=1

Osella

7th March 2007, 18:04

Single lap times are pretty meaningless - hasn't Badoer even broken lap records at Fiorano in the past from time to time?

Yep, as have Massa, and Gene. In fact, the only driver I don't remember breaking lap records at Fiorano and Mugello in Ferrari testing is Eddie Irvine! ;)

futuretiger9

7th March 2007, 21:42

Yep, as have Massa, and Gene. In fact, the only driver I don't remember breaking lap records at Fiorano and Mugello in Ferrari testing is Eddie Irvine! ;)

Did Irvine actually ever do much testing at Mugello and Fiorano?

ArrowsFA1

14th March 2007, 11:28

"Some people have been making something of the fact that, mostly, I have been fractionally quicker than Kimi, but I do not see it as anything significant. For sure, testing is testing and the racing is racing. But I can say that I am very happy with the way things went. I was very familiar with the car and I know the team personnel and how they all work and everything was going pretty well. Kimi on the other hand was still learning and getting to know the team. Now we will see what happens in Melbourne, as this is the moment that the answer comes."
link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57297)

Shalafi

14th March 2007, 11:38

He knows what is coming... ;)

F1boat

14th March 2007, 13:49

Every smart diver should be cautious. you never know what can happen.

ioan

14th March 2007, 14:15

He knows what is coming... ;)

Yep, he's downplaying his chances to increase the pressure on KR, not bad at all.

jens

14th March 2007, 21:28

Yeah, soon we'll get the answer, who is a better psychologist, Shalafi or ioan. :)

Garry Walker

2nd May 2007, 21:23

That would be me, obviously! :D

I think I can dig out the bet thread from somewhere just to see what's in it...

Our moment of truth is approaching :D

Juppe

2nd May 2007, 22:00

Our moment of truth is approaching :D

Oh, I totally forgot about it! Thanks for reminding, its going to be an interesting race. :)

jas123f1

2nd May 2007, 23:20

I wouldn’t count Kimi off yet - we should not forget that Kimi was quite new in the team and that the car setup was not "his".
The car was (and still is I hope) is perfect to Massa, who has been driving Ferrari years. But even though I think that Massa made a good job in Bahrain and usually make good times in testing too I don’t think he is better than Kimi.

Also Kimi has made a good job under this very short time in his new team – I don’t think it is easy to take a new car and be fastest in the team from the first day - that good driver Massa really is. Earlier my tip was that Massa take the tree first races and after that it’s very close between them and later on Kimi probably will be the quicker of them..

That was and still is my spot.

I think Kimi will be better and quicker in the future - probably already in Spain, because he had this "4 weeks break" to find the setup. I think he is at least in same speed than Massa and if everything goes as it would I think he will win in Catalunya (he or Massa).

The 3 first races were only "warming up" - it’s now the racing begins

:)

Valve Bounce

3rd May 2007, 02:33

I have already posted on the Kimi vs Massa thread as these discussions cover almost the same ground. Basically, I see Massa as a very fast driver when he is in the top car and racing from the front. Suppose we put him in the third or fourth fastest teams like Renault or BMW (at the moment); would we see the same racing capability from Massa?

My opinion is "No!"

jas123f1

3rd May 2007, 10:37

Basically, I see Massa as a very fast driver when he is in the top car and racing from the front. Suppose we put him in the third or fourth fastest teams like Renault or BMW (at the moment); would we see the same racing capability from Massa?

My opinion is "No!"

I have same opinion; Massa is a good driver but it's not that easy to start in a new team, so I think Massa should have a difficult time at least during a first half of the first season.

It’s should be interesting to see Massa in a Toyota. :s mokin: To see how much faster he should be than Ralf and Trulli ..

I think Toyota needs one more explosive driver like Massa …

jens

3rd May 2007, 17:09

In fact, Massa was last year in negotiations with Toyota, but after the United States Grand Prix finally decided to continue in Ferrari.

leopard

4th May 2007, 07:36

jens

13th May 2007, 16:03

Massa is becoming a genuine Championship contender. It seems that he has learned a lot from his mistakes in Malaysia (this time he refused to yield in Turn 1) and I think we were all a bit unfair to write him off after Sepang race (and some even suggested that Ferrari should find a new driver for 2008). Now Massa is proving, why there has been so much discussion about who is going to be Ferrari #1 driver this year.

Only 3 points behind the WDC leader - way to go! :up:

aryan

13th May 2007, 17:43

Only 3 points behind the WDC leader - way to go! :up:

Which happens to be a a rookie debutant in an inferior car! ;)

F1boat

13th May 2007, 20:03

Which happens to be a a rookie debutant in an inferior car! ;)

And a GP 2 Series World Champion ;)
Massa has done a great job, really. I am literally stunned by his most recent races, Bahrain and Barcelona.

Scuderia ferrari

13th May 2007, 22:02

I agrre with you, he has certanly improved from his early days and he is a serious championship contender after his last performance at spain. Having Schumi around and giving advice to him is sure to help, and he will have a lot more confidence after 2 wins on the trot now.

F1boat

13th May 2007, 22:04

3 poles, 2 wins, he showed that he is amazingly fast!

Zico

13th May 2007, 22:15

wedge

14th May 2007, 14:05

While he has proved astonishingly fast in Qualifying and brilliant from Pole Aren't there still question marks over his ability as a racer? The day he wins from further back on the grid I'll eat my words. ;)

I would agree with you there.

He made a great start in Spain and brilliantly held the inside line at the first corner. He could've done a Jenson by taking too much kerb and crash into Alonso.

Massa is certainly a WDC contender but WDC material? I'm still suspicious about his racecraft. Apart from Bahrain, his wins have been far too easy for my liking. I prefer to see him handle with a bit more pressure, how he handles damage limitation.

It's not just about winning races, some of the most important races are when you finish on second or third when you're expecting to finish lower.

aryan

14th May 2007, 18:16

While he has proved astonishingly fast in Qualifying and brilliant from Pole Aren't there still question marks over his ability as a racer? The day he wins from further back on the grid I'll eat my words. ;)

Exactly my thoughts.

All credit to Massa, I don't want to get anything away fom him, he did a solid job and comes home with 10 points. well done.

However, IMHO winning from pole only means that he is quick. We have known that he is quick since 2002, what we have always doubetd has been his race craft, and I am yet to be convinced in that department.