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Sulland
27th November 2009, 09:51
In many countries today, especially the drivers move from National championships directly to WRC.

We have a European Championship, but traditionally this has been an option chosen by drivers/teams from mid/south Europe, and the ERC has had few that are on their way up.

Could the European championship be changed into an option as a layer btw the national series and WRC.

Could regional championships, to keep cost down, be layer 1, then some sort of final to get the euro champ ?

Is something like this interessting, and if so what options would you see as the best to move the ERC into a really valuable crown to have on your CW ?

morganmilan
27th November 2009, 21:26
Iīve always believed IRC series has got much more in common with ERC that with WRC. Perhaps both championships could be integrated (calendars are half the same nowadays!)and create a strong ERC without rallys outside Europe. As a matter of fact really only european drivers follow IRC. Regional cups must be promoted too, so drivers could compete not far from home in an international championship. Regional cups rallyes could count to ERC points as minor coefficient rallyes (perhaps 2 to 5 or so...). Perhaps, in that way, north and east rally drivers would be more interested in european series...

Jarek Z
28th November 2009, 10:56
Yes, in my opinion European Championship can and should be a ladder between national series and WRC. Look at JWRC and IRC - 80% of both series are held in Europe and contested by European rallies anyway. It should all be merged into one strong ERC. Isn't it the way it used to be in the eighties? Drivers such as Walter Roehrl, Miki Biasion and Piero Liatti had their first international successes in ERC and then moved to WRC.

Unfortunately such merging will never happen because most people ruling the world of rallying today are narrow-minded idiots :(

Jarek Z
28th November 2009, 10:57
And as far as regional cups are concerned they should be canceled as soon as possible.

morganmilan
28th November 2009, 11:03
And as far as regional cups are concerned they should be canceled as soon as possible.
Why? :confused:

Jarek Z
28th November 2009, 11:05
Because what's the use to have them?

Simmi
28th November 2009, 16:47
I think the answer will come when the WRC brings in its new regs with a cheaper costing premium car.

In previous years you had such brilliantly supported ERC and national championships. In the same machinery these drivers could do well and then enter the WRC in their own cars and be on the pace.

At the moment there is a gulf between the top tier of the WRC and all championships because the current crop of WRCars are not viable for privateers. It is my dream to see a top car that is once again usable in all championships. And in the same way the top drivers can go and enter other national rally championships.

From a personal point of view it would be great to see the real cream of the crop entering the British Rally Championship like they used to do many years ago. At the moment we only get the odd cross overs for testing purposes such as in Ireland a couple of years ago.

morganmilan
29th November 2009, 00:45
Because what's the use to have them?
Probably as a second division ERC, opening the possibility to run an international championship to drivers with minor budgets. Besides taking points to the regional cups, they could take to ERC too. I believe all championships are a good idea, unless there are no teams to compete on them ;)

Jarek Z
29th November 2009, 10:39
And who needs second division ERC? How many drivers compete in regional cups? Two or three? What's the sense of having a championship for two drivers?

morganmilan
29th November 2009, 16:26
And who needs second division ERC? How many drivers compete in regional cups? Two or three? What's the sense of having a championship for two drivers?
No sense, of course. There would be a minimum limit for those championships: perhaps 5 or 6 registered drivers. If that level is not got, the championship will be no run. Itīs so simple...But, if we had that number of registered drivers, there would be no problem. FIA could try and see... :)

HaCo
29th November 2009, 16:34
The number of compulsorily entered rallies to be counted in the final ERC classification has been lowered from six to five events. Then with four European Rally Championship events common with popular IRC serial, the ERC can be more interesting than in the past also for the regular IRC competitors with just one more event ran out of their usual competition ground.

If you do IRC, you would be stupid not to do ERC as well! So as far as ERC integration in IRC, or the other way around, it is good as it will be next year. Also entry fees are much lower for next year.

It's a pitty so many drivers neglect ERC: they all want to step up to WRC. Would be great if some Belgian drivers would drive ERC, like they did in the past and were successful!

Jarek Z
29th November 2009, 18:34
No sense, of course. There would be a minimum limit for those championships: perhaps 5 or 6 registered drivers. If that level is not got, the championship will be no run. Itīs so simple...But, if we had that number of registered drivers, there would be no problem. FIA could try and see... :)

Morgan, the only thing you want to do is kill ERC and/or IRC. The more drivers in regional cups, the less in ERC/IRC. How many drivers compete in ERC/IRC on a regular basis? No more than 8-10. Do you want to reduce this number to 4-5? There simply is not enough drivers with international programmes in this world. Regional cups have existed for at least 5 years and there have never been any interest in them.

morganmilan
29th November 2009, 20:29
Morgan, the only thing you want to do is kill ERC and/or IRC. The more drivers in regional cups, the less in ERC/IRC. How many drivers compete in ERC/IRC on a regular basis? No more than 8-10. Do you want to reduce this number to 4-5? There simply is not enough drivers with international programmes in this world. Regional cups have existed for at least 5 years and there have never been any interest in them.
Not really :D I donīt want to kill nor anybody neither anything :eek: I think, Jarek, both of us are saying the same! You are right: There are few drivers running ERC and regional cups. Going on with IRC, ERC and regional cups would be fantastic if we counted with enough crews. I hope sooncoming end of worldcrisis :rolleyes: and lower fees bring more teams to international rallying. I only believe itīs a little bit mad keeping IRC and ERC with few drivers (all of them from Europe), similar cars and the half of the rallyes in common. Thatīs make no sense. Next year, probably almost same drivers will be fighting for both titles, and thatīs make no sense at all too

Raven
30th November 2009, 17:13
IRC is "private" idea, ERC is by FIA. I hope they will coexist. The best way to kill IRC is to let it be totally controled by FIA (look at ERC).

Sulland
7th January 2010, 07:31
Trasfered from the ERC 2010 thread
Reduce the number of events in ERC by removing Istanbul (nobody wants to watch rallies in Turkey anyway) and replace Rallye du Valais with Arctic Rally. Not a good idea?

That would help a lot imo, ore are there better ideas ?

Maybe;

Layer one: Regional cup: 4-5 rallies
Layer two: ERC - the x best from each region - 3 rallies with different surfaces
Layer three: IRC or SWRC
Layer forur: WRC

Would it be an idea to limit classes allowed in layer 1 and 2 to for instace only R-class to keep cost down ?

morganmilan
7th January 2010, 16:26
Good idea, but I believe it would be enough with R cars at first level, and S2000 and N4 in the ERC. regional cups could be North, East, Southeast, Central and West or Atlantic. Perhaps six to eight rallyes in each one, and ten in ERC with tarmac, gravel and snow (in regional cups where possible). Two best rallyes from each regional cup could count for ERC. Regional cups only for 2WD and ERC for all cars but WRC ones. Does it sound good? ;)

Steve Boyd
7th January 2010, 16:30
The ERC has been around a lot longer than the WRC (RallyBase has champions listed from 1953) and I believe the advent of the WRC took away much of the kudos of winning the ERC. Over the years the ERC developed a system of coefficients where higher status events gave more points than lower status events. This was rationalised a few years ago so that only the coefficient 20 events counted for the ERC & the lower graded events were separated into the regional cups.
Rallying has always allowed any competitor with the correct licence to compete on an event & has never had licence upgrading requirements above the basic International licence. If you want to enforce a ladder then you would need a higher licence for a WRC event than for ERC or BRC. You might finish up with only a handful of WRC licence holders, would it be worth putting on a WRC event for only 20 cars? F1 & racing in general might be able to live with this but I'm not sure that rallying can.
Restrictions based on the class of vehicle are already in place to some extent. WRC cars are not permited in the ERC or BRC. If you were to restrict further then the ERC & Cup competitiors would look silly on event where non-championship entrants could use N4 & S2000 cars. If you stopped locals from entering unless they had an R class car you wouldn't have enough entries. I don't believe that there's enough money in rallying to support a ladder, there's barely enough to keep going as it is.

Jarek Z
7th January 2010, 20:21
I don't believe that there's enough money in rallying to support a ladder, there's barely enough to keep going as it is.

Well said Steve! I'm of the same opinion. I like Morgan's ideas, but he seems to be living in a dream. The truth is that rallying is not thriving and there simply is not enough competitors to have so many levels. WRC + ERC + IRC + regional cups is already too much...

morganmilan
8th January 2010, 08:41
Well said Steve! I'm of the same opinion. I like Morgan's ideas, but he seems to be living in a dream. The truth is that rallying is not thriving and there simply is not enough competitors to have so many levels. WRC + ERC + IRC + regional cups is already too much...
Hi Jarek. I like you like my ideas and, yes, perhaps all of it sounds a little fantastic nowadays. We havenīt today all the money we need in our sport, but I believe this thread just goes on ideas about making rallying better and more interesant for everybody. Perhaps not today, but in the future who knows. Anyway, thnx for your posts.

Jarek Z
10th January 2010, 12:45
Anyway, thnx for your posts.

You're welcome. I'm always open to discussion and always respect your opinions.

Just to confirm my fears about the number of competitors... Do you know how many drivers entered JWRC 2010? 4. Four! Can you imagine?

Barreis
10th January 2010, 13:04
No value for invested money..

morganmilan
10th January 2010, 14:16
You're welcome. I'm always open to discussion and always respect your opinions.

Just to confirm my fears about the number of competitors... Do you know how many drivers entered JWRC 2010? 4. Four! Can you imagine?
Yeah, I saw it. Anyway I expect for some else entrants, cos JWRC begins at Turkey and itīs a lot of time to. As a matter of fact I donīt like too much JWRC, and would prefer a typical 2WD class with more car types and without age limits (another matter for arguing? ;) )

Sulland
10th January 2010, 14:18
No value for invested money..

Agree with this, but is not some of that that ERC have very little known reputation, and therefor hard to sell to sponsors ?

If FIA changed this a bit, maybe that raised level of reputation would change it around.

urabus-denoS2000
10th January 2010, 14:18
Agree 100% the age limit is just stupid

Anyway if they care about young drivers they shouldn't put them in a class of 150.000 euro kit cars ;)

Sulland
2nd March 2011, 12:19
I see that all the layers in rally europe are still in place for 2011.

Is this topic something that is discussed in the ASN's or in FIA ?
Is there a plan to change something ?