Button signs 3-year McLaren contract. CONFIRMED

[SkyTom]

Stories flying all over the place this morning that Jenson has agreed a £6m a year 3-year deal with McLaren :O

There is an article in the Guardian this morning. Wonder if Kimi will go to Merc GP now? They said they didn't want an all-German line-up...

http://planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5699508,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/nov/16/jenson-button-joins-mclaren-contract

[Valve Bounce]

Bunsen's offer : 'The Guardian understands that the World Champion has turned his back on Brawn following protracted negotiations and will almost double his salary with the Woking-based team. '

Now!! if McLaren are offering 6 million quid a year to Bunsen, and this is double what Brawn were offering, then one can only assume that Brawn were offering peanuts to this year's Champion. What the hell!!!
And Lewis Hamilton is getting 12 million quid a year!!

I am flabbergasted!! :eek:

[Koz]

Something seems fishy...

[foxystoat]

So 3 million quid a year is peanuts is it ? I wouldn't mind being a pound or 2 behind that !

[Valve Bounce]

Something seems fishy...

Yeah!! I get the same feeling. The signing is supposed to be in three day's time.

[Mark]

Not a bad option, but it'll be a demotion in terms of lead status IMO.. :)

He'll still have the number 1 on his car ;)

[christophulus]

If Brawn wasn't willing to pay Button £6m a year after a world title and Mercedes backing.. maybe they didn't want him at all? Are Mercedes interfering with Brawn's selection of drivers or what?

[Mark]

If Brawn wasn't willing to pay Button £6m a year after a world title and Mercedes backing.. maybe they didn't want him at all? Are Mercedes interfering with Brawn's selection of drivers or what?

No they aren't. As there is no such thing as Brawn any more. They are Mercedes, and they can do as they please.

[Sonic]

He'll still have the number 1 on his car ;)

And perhaps we can arrange for Lewy to wear a cap that says "2" on it all season a la Rubens in his Red days - i'd pay good money 4 that.

[christophulus]

No they aren't. As there is no such thing as Brawn any more. They are Mercedes, and they can do as they please.

True, but I meant Ross Brawn as opposed to the team. As team principal and with a 25% stake in the team he must still get some say in who drives?

[Hondo]

Money aside, Button probably should have retired from F1. I don't think Brawn was entirely happy with either driver last year and probably thought the championship fights went on longer than they should have. Button may be the champion but it would seem that few feel inclined to pay him what he desires. Hamilton is on his way to becoming an exceptional driver and against him, Button will appear average at best.

[Mark]

Button struggled against Barichello, now nothing against Rubens but I think his best days are behind him. So I'd be surprised to see what he can do against Hamilton.

I hope McLaren don't treat him in the same way as they did Kovalinen!

[I am evil Homer]

Ross Brawn isn't stupid...if the majority owner doesn't care much for Button he won't fight that hard to keep him. They have Rosberg, who while a talent has yet to have a decent car, and they could get Heidfeld for a fraction of the cost of Button.

How badly did McLaren treat Heikki exactly? Fact is he was beaten, by quite some way, by a better driver and showed that he's merely average.

[Mark]

How badly did McLaren treat Heikki exactly? Fact is he was beaten, by quite some way, by a better driver and showed that he's merely average.

He did get beaten, in that there is no doubt. But McLaren who were struggling saw this and decided to put their efforts into getting wins for Hamilton, which they suceeded in doing, but it was somewhat at Kovalinen's cost.

[Mark]

Indeed which proves my point that he lacks that killer instinct. Drivers in the past have come into teams and forced their dominance to get the lead role, and Heikki didn't achieve that IMO.. :)

You can have all the killer instinct you want, but if you aren't fast enough, you aren't fast enough.

[Sonic]

He did get beaten, in that there is no doubt. But McLaren who were struggling saw this and decided to put their efforts into getting wins for Hamilton, which they suceeded in doing, but it was somewhat at Kovalinen's cost.

And quite rightly too. Kovy never did anything to be considered number 1.

Put yourself in a team managers shoes for a second; what would you prefer, wins, or both drivers trailing around in 9th and 10th?

[Mark]

And quite rightly too. Kovy never did anything to be considered number 1.

Put yourself in a team managers shoes for a second; what would you prefer, wins, or both drivers trailing around in 9th and 10th?

Of course the answer is obvious. Although McLaren would deny there ever being any favouritism. I've long been of the opinion that it's difficult to win a world championship unless you put all your efforts into one driver. Aside from occasions where your car is dominant.

[Saint Devote]

It is not relevant what anyone thinks of Button - he got the job done better than any other driver in recent years.

The record book will show he won THREE more grands prix than any other driver in 2009.

He won the world championship with a greater points difference.
He wrapped it up with ONE grand prix to go.
He made LESS errors than any other top driver.

But most of all he WON the world championship.

There have been many drivers, supposedly great talents, that NEVER got the job done.

So, if you try and undermine Jenson's win - its not going work and is because you just don't like Jenson. Well.... Sucks to be YOU!!!!

The Jenson supporters like myself are just as happy as can be. And whether Jenson wons another title or not is not important. He will always be Jenson, 2009 world champion.

As for him signing for Mclaren - the Guardian is not exactly the most reliable newspaper.

[I am evil Homer]

They'll look very silly if it isn't true though. But if he joins McLaren, regardless of whether people think Jenson is a 'good' champion, it will be a strong driver pairing.

Still think Heidfeld would be a better option...maybe he'll go to Manor with Glock and Saube have been very quiet.

[Saint Devote]

I hope it is true that Jenson will be joining the greatest Constructor in racing. I think I can speak for many from Jenson's Barmy Army - long term supporters that through so many career frustrations recognized just how worthy he would be of good cars.

12 months previously we thought that it could be ending, instead 12 months later we are supporters of the sport's brand new world champion driver.

The first half of the championship was like a dream. And now, maybe Jenson is to sign for Mclaren for THREE years!!!

He is worthy of becoming a Mclaren driver and what a prospect, the challenge of being teammate to Lewis Hamilton as well. He will relish that!

And finally - I will get to support a driver in a Mclaren!!!!

[Saint Devote]

They'll look very silly if it isn't true though. But if he joins McLaren, regardless of whether people think Jenson is a 'good' champion, it will be a strong driver pairing.

Still think Heidfeld would be a better option...maybe he'll go to Manor with Glock and Saube have been very quiet.

Absolutely - I hope it is true.

At first I was dubious about him being Lewis' teammate, but on reflection it would be the ultimate top seat for Jenson. He will have earned it.

I am excited about Manor because their concept is different to everyone else. Good for Glock - far better than being number 2 at Renault. Heidfeld, if he does not go to Mercedes GP, is a good selection too.

Manor is my favorite new team because of its connection to John Booth run teams. He runs an excellent show. I'd rate him as the next Dave Richards.

Speaking of whom - he is another manager that ought to be in f1 again.

[Sonic]

Absolutely - I hope it is true.

At first I was dubious about him being Lewis' teammate, but on reflection it would be the ultimate top seat for Jenson. He will have earned it.

I am excited about Manor because their concept is different to everyone else. Good for Glock - far better than being number 2 at Renault. Heidfeld, if he does not go to Mercedes GP, is a good selection too.

Manor is my favorite new team because of its connection to John Booth run teams. He runs an excellent show. I'd rate him as the next Dave Richards.

Speaking of whom - he is another manager that ought to be in f1 again.

Do you get paid by the word or something? :D

[Big Ben]

The quintessential wet dream of us, the burney gumble army fans, came to life. The metaphysical aspiration of hardcore super motor racing fan was fulfilled. The prophecy that McLaren will suck in a world champion and spit out a loser is closer and closer... or wait... it's not a prophecy... it actually happened before... nevertheless.. I'm exhaustet. It actually sucks to be YOU. you know who

[Hondo]

I agree that he will struggle to match Hamiltons pace, but retiring would be abit drastic IMO. Button is alot better than some of the field and has a wealth of experience, and when you compare him to the likes of Trulli, well. I don't think Mclaren will treat Button the same as Heikki as Button seems a stronger personality and not someone who just rolls over. Heikki is a great guy but he lacks that killer instinct IMO.. :)

Drastic depends on his ego and reputation. When he goes to McLaren and Hamilton beats him in 2010, Button will begin to suffer the stigma of being a "lucky champion". Just another one time champ that backed into it by virtue of luck and coincidence.

He might be better off leaving on top of the game and the rest of us guessing.

[UltimateDanGTR]

personally i cant see why Jenson would want to be at Mclaren with Hammy there nice and comfortable with the team loving him and then here comes the new guy. But, if you are world champion and as a prize you get a drive at Mclaren then things aren't too bad. I just hope Mercedes Grand Prix and Kimi can get a deal together if the button-2-macca move happens, because Kimi is a great driver and without him it would be a great shame. even though he lacks personality, he still is fantastic in a car. who knows, amybe he will take a sabbatical, a year off to go and as he would 'av a s***'

[F1boat]

IMO Kimi has a very cool personality, Dan... His "don't care" attitude is cool. About Jenson, in my opinion he is rightly feeling embarassed by Mercedes'unwillingness to pay him the salary he deserves as a WDC.

[OutRun]

Drastic depends on his ego and reputation. When he goes to McLaren and Hamilton beats him in 2010, Button will begin to suffer the stigma of being a "lucky champion". Just another one time champ that backed into it by virtue of luck and coincidence.

He might be better off leaving on top of the game and the rest of us guessing.
It sounds like you are describing Raikkonen. Personally I don't believe in the idea of a 'lucky champion'. Button is not my favorite driver but I refuse to denigrate what he has accomplished. If he signs for McLaren I'll wish him good luck and good riddance.

[Hondo]

I like Kimi and don't consider him a lucky champion. Good car or bad, Kimi pushed hard to keep himself in the championship he won. I don't see that same effort always being applied by others. I think Kimi has a "reverse Williams" attitude. With Williams the car was the star and it didn't make much difference to them who was sitting in it. My impression of Kimi is that "I'm here to race to the fullest of my abilities whatever you present to me to race." "Painting it, engineering it, developing it, and making it competative and reliable is your job." And I can appreciate that.

Personally, I think Kimi is worth more money than Button.

[jens]

If the numbers are correct, then quite interesting conclusions can be made. Numbers? I mean 6M per year deal for Button. Also if the information presented by James Allen blog is anything to go by, Kimi was offered exactly the same amount of money by McLaren - 6M.

This may show that Kimi's market value has fallen especially after his slightly disappointing Ferrari years, so that (even) Button is now regarded as an equivalent to him in the driver market. He isn't regarded as a "special" driver, who a top team is willing to get literally at any cost (Hamilton/Alonso), but as a "good" driver with an attitude of "if he doesn't accept our offer, no problem, we'll get another good driver".

[CNR]

Although McLaren would deny there ever being any favouritism. .

Jenson Button assured of equality with Lewis Hamilton at McLaren
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/jenson-button/6592412/Jenson-Button-assured-of-equality-with-Lewis-Hamilton-at-McLaren.html

Jenson Button has been assured he will have complete equality of equipment with Lewis Hamilton if and when he completes his widely-anticipated move to McLaren.

[Valve Bounce]

It sounds like you are describing Raikkonen. Personally I don't believe in the idea of a 'lucky champion'. Button is not my favorite driver but I refuse to denigrate what he has accomplished. If he signs for McLaren I'll wish him good luck and good riddance.

Well, I have to agree that I had doubted that Bunsen would ever win a second GP and here he is as WDC. I too don't believe there is ever such a thing as a lucky champion, and Bunsen deserves what he has achieved. I too wish him luck at McLaren, and I will be cheering for him to beat Hamilton.

I'm just sorry that nothing has been finalised for Kimi yet; he is simply too good a driver/racer to miss out on a good drive this year.

[Saint Devote]

IMO Kimi has a very cool personality, Dan... His "don't care" attitude is cool. About Jenson, in my opinion he is rightly feeling embarassed by Mercedes'unwillingness to pay him the salary he deserves as a WDC.

Embarassment about being world champion and not receiving his demand? I doubt that. Look back at all the champions in recent years that have left teams after winning for similar reasons.

And supposedly moving to Mclaren for the money he wants - thats a move UPWARDS for the new world champion!

Far from embarassment Jenson is probably enjoying the sun somewhere feeling as good as he ever can.

[Saint Devote]

If the numbers are correct, then quite interesting conclusions can be made. Numbers? I mean 6M per year deal for Button. Also if the information presented by James Allen blog is anything to go by, Kimi was offered exactly the same amount of money by McLaren - 6M.

This may show that Kimi's market value has fallen especially after his slightly disappointing Ferrari years, so that (even) Button is now regarded as an equivalent to him in the driver market. He isn't regarded as a "special" driver, who a top team is willing to get literally at any cost (Hamilton/Alonso), but as a "good" driver with an attitude of "if he doesn't accept our offer, no problem, we'll get another good driver".

Raikkonen won his championship because Mclaren messed up - lets not be coy about it. Nobody expected Hamilton to kick Alonso's arse and Ron Dennis did nothing to control a situation that given Alonso's petulant nature got totally out of control.

And when Raikkonen did win the championship he did so at the last race by one point.

Button won by winning twice more races than any otehr driver and with a good points margin.

And "even Button" is considerd etc? What is so special about Raikkonen? That he acts like f1 owes him? May I remind you that dear Kimi's attitude has landed him without a drive for 2010 - and he has himself to blame. No driver is bigger than f1.

Furthermore, Mr. Special was unequivocally being beaten by a driver that was supposedly the team's SECOND driver, Massa. And it is Massa that Ferrari have preferred not Raikonnen.

In my view, Raikkonen needs to take a long look and decide if he really wants to be in f1. As an outside observer I'd say he does not and there are too many good drivers out there to waste time on him.

Red Bull Racing or any other team should not waste their time.

Bye Kimi. It was good while it lasted!

[woody2goody]

Drastic depends on his ego and reputation. When he goes to McLaren and Hamilton beats him in 2010, Button will begin to suffer the stigma of being a "lucky champion". Just another one time champ that backed into it by virtue of luck and coincidence.

He might be better off leaving on top of the game and the rest of us guessing.

Yeah that would be the smart thing to do :rolleyes:

My view would be that Jenson wanted to stay at Brawn/Mercedes, but they wanted someone else in the car, so they lowballed Jenson on the contract offer, almost just to be polite, knowing he wouldn't accept.

Like I said before, I doubt Jenson would sign for McLaren unless he will get equal treatment. And I believe he can beat Hamilton over a season. Jenson had a half-developed car for half a season and still won the title. I'm convinced if it was a normal season of development that Jenson would have won more races.

Lewis will likely have a small pace advantage, but Jenson will be more consistent over a race distance, make less mistakes, and will possibly end up beating Hamilton in the races. I'm guessing it will be like Heidfeld and Kubica in 2008 - better quali from Robert, with Nick catching up and sometimes beating him in the races.

Button's got talent, and like Saint Devote said, he won three more GPs than ANYONE last year. Vettel, Barrichello and Webber had their chances, and failed in the end.

[gloomyDAY]

Jenson Button assured of equality with Lewis Hamilton at McLaren
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/jenson-button/6592412/Jenson-Button-assured-of-equality-with-Lewis-Hamilton-at-McLaren.htmlButton should have a long talk with Heikki.

This equal status thing, yeah, just not goin' to happen.

[F1boat]

I think that Vodafone may demand equality... they would like an honest battle for Britain!

[DexDexter]

Going to Mclaren is a suicide for Button. I cannot believe he's that stupid. Lewis will destroy him just like Heikki.

[F1boat]

I think that they will be like Vettel and Webber. After all, people here seem to rate Vettel as close to Lewis and Jenson as good, if not better than MW.

[leopard]

I have the same worries that Lewis will deteriorate reputation of Jenson..., but despite Jenson is a reigning champion, we will see him driver who can accept reality instead of putting forward the ego about driver status. He is good, he would win this season on a decent car, no sooner said than done.

Lewis is exceptionally great, his main problem that he is a penalty prone. How many times he get penalized the racing start and strips of his points...

Having two brithis drivers might be coincident, but obviously currently they are proven champions.

[F1boat]

I just wish Mclaren would announce this news! :)

Same here.

[DexDexter]

I think that they will be like Vettel and Webber. After all, people here seem to rate Vettel as close to Lewis and Jenson as good, if not better than MW.

I don't know, if you have trouble with Barrichello, what about Lewis then? Let's remember that Heikki is a better driver than Fisichella, he clearly beat him in his rookie year in the second half of the season while Button wasn't that impressive against Fisi at Benetton in 2001. We know what happened to Heikki at Mclaren.

[leopard]

Let's remember that Heikki is a better driver than Fisichella Although performance driving Force India was impressive, Fisi would never be any good as his time at Renault alongside Fernando, Alonso obviously helped his performance... :)

[Valve Bounce]

........................ I just wish Mclaren would announce this news! :)

Hasn't it been announced in The Guardian already? Maybe we should wait till we read it in The Bild. :p :

[leopard]

Hasn't it been announced in The Guardian already? Maybe we should wait till we read it in The Bild. :p :
once Jean Todt arrived and took the lead, the Bild have possessed credibility as a source like any other magazines. :)

[jens]

I don't know, if you have trouble with Barrichello, what about Lewis then? Let's remember that Heikki is a better driver than Fisichella, he clearly beat him in his rookie year in the second half of the season while Button wasn't that impressive against Fisi at Benetton in 2001. We know what happened to Heikki at Mclaren.

Well, as you rightly view Heikki's driving at McLaren as "underperforming" and he can be capable of better than that, then Fisi's driving at Renault should be viewed in the same way. Especially the second half of 2007 was Fisi's biggest low in his career (if we leave that Ferrari stint in late-09 aside). He knew he was out of the team and didn't have any team support, he collapsed and started making mistakes in almost every race. Fisi and Kova are in a way quite similar - both need team support to unveil their potential, otherwise they might struggle significantly.

[Sonic]

well at least the two drivers I like least are in the same team (yes they did this all for me!).

Jenson has never been the brightest at his career choices (I'll go back to Williams. signs contract . No. I stay with BAR buys himself out of contract . Spends next few years driving a bucket of a Honda). We shall see if this switch to McLaren is smart in March.

[jens]

Well...

A year or more ago it was widely said that the mistake of Button's career decision was choosing BAR/Honda over Williams. :p : That was nothing really, but I mentioned it because this (choosing McLaren over MercGP) decision is going to be by far the biggest and also a defining mistake for his whole career.

Then again, if Button wants a higher salary, 2009 is exactly the right time to ask for it, as his stock may well start falling in the next seasons. Take a look at Räikkönen - got 25M p/y (or was it more?) from Ferrari, now couldn't get more than 6M from anyone. So if Button can't get a good salary in 2009, then when is he going to get it?

I may be a bit pessimistic, but I'm not entirely sure, how does a McLaren suit Button's driving style either. Jenson doesn't seem to be too adaptable, being too much dependent on his smooth style. Looking at current McLaren drivers, Hamilton is quite aggressive, while Kovalainen is probably smoother and as a result struggling significantly. And Fisichella - rated very highly before 2005 - with his smooth style was also struggling in an "aggressive" Renault. But I hope McLaren isn't going to turn into a version of "MotoGP Ducati", where only one man knows, how to get the best out of this machinery properly. :p :

[N. Jones]

According to planet-f1.com the deal is done:

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5702366,00.html

[Mark]

It's all confirmed http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8363892.stm

[Wasted Talent]

I haven't read such a load of rubbish on here for ages, there really are some weird ideas.

From being newly crowned F1 Champion Jenson is suddenly:

"Button probably should have retired from F1"

"Button struggled against Barichello"

"maybe Mercedes really just wanted Button out of there"

Maybe people should think before they post, as they cannot see how ridiculous it looks

I will personally love it when Button, McLaren and Hamilton stick it to the rest of the paddock next season....


WT

[F1boat]

Damn. I'll have to become a McLaren fan for a first time since 2003.

[Wasted Talent]

Damn. I'll have to become a McLaren fan for a first time since 2003.

Don't worry mate, you'll enjoy it :) :)

WT

[I am evil Homer]

Well at least this is all sorted now and we can move on. No one will be proven right one way or the other until next year - I too have my suspicions about how Button might fare at McLaren but we'll see.

[F1boat]

I hope so, WT... all the best to the British lions!

[DexDexter]

Good luck Jenson, you're in for the ride of your life.

[Daniel]

I'm going to buy shares in whoever makes Vaseline because Jenson is going to need a lot of it next year. Hamilton is going to make Jenson look very silly very quickly.

[Dave B]

I guess at least we'll see who is the better driver of the two in equal equipment. I've a sneaky feeling we already know though...

[Daniel]

I guess at least we'll see who is the better driver of the two in equal equipment. I've a sneaky feeling we already know though...
As much as I think Lewis is slightly overrated I think the fact that he had the pace to win a title in his 1st and 2nd years says a lot.

[pino]

With all respect for Jenson, he has no chances against Lewis. Lewis is younger, faster, and knows the Team better. But I would love to be proven I was wrong ;)

[Josti]

Good luck Jenson. Seriously.

[I am evil Homer]

Yep...I think he may need it.

[COD]

1) Button shot himself in the leg, because he will be destroyed by Hamilton. BUT, he got a 3year deal, so he'll make nice pension money...

2) Why on earth did McLaren signed him for THREE years?

[truefan72]

Button made a sensible move.

In all honestly if Brawn GP had simply paid him what he was due, then he would have stayed. They tried to be cheap about retaining a WDC who took a 50% paycut the previous year to help pout the team, and now that he won the championship, they wouldn't even consider proper negotiations to accommodate his salary.

I'm no fan of button, but fair 9si fair. Now tha the is at mclaren, I expect him to do a better job than kovy. I don't think he beats Hamilton, but he sure will be competitive. It might be a bit closer than we think, but my money is still on Hamilton outclassing him.

Let's just hope the 2010 Mclaren is highly competitive from the start

[Wasted Talent]

1)

2) Why on earth did McLaren signed him for THREE years?

Easy, because he is a QUALITY driver............

WT

[Triumph]

I was hoping that Jenson wouldn't go to McLaren as he surely won't get the better of Lewis, given equally good cars.

Having said that I think that the McLaren will be a front-runner next year, so wherever Jenson went he would still be up against a competitive Lewis.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Jenson gets on next year and I'll be supporting both him and Lewis as they are my two favourite drivers.

:-)

[Bezza]

Can't wait for 2010 now! Forget Christmas can we fast forward to March please :)

[WSRfan82]

well thats made it alot easier for me nxt season as im a fan of both drivers but i do think you all wrong about button. ok this wus his first year as a championship contender but if you look at the teams he raced for over the 10 years he not exactly had the right cars or teams has he.

2000 - Williams - new to f1 so we will give him and give him credit for doing the best he can.
2001 - Bennetton - the car wasn't that good
2002 - Renault - again not really that good of a car
2003 - BAR - again car not really up to winning
2004 - BAR - not winning car
2005 - BAR - good car but not a winning one
2006 - Honda - pretty good car give him his first win
2007 - Honda - lets face it worst car ever from Honda
2008 - Honda - better then 2007 but still no a winning car
2009 - great car but slowly got matched

so personally i think with button going to McLaren hes going be alot better then you give him credit for...i actually think he mite equal of not better Hamilton

[Robinho]

great move for Jenson i think, sure there is a chance he'll have his ass handed to him on a plate, but he's not world champ for nothing, and i can see him giving Hamilton a bit of a fight, and i also think they'll work well together.

i'd have loved him to stay at Brawn, but Brawn/Honda aren't that team antymore, hence its not his team, and will be forming its future around Mercedes plans, and despite Ross and Nick, i don't think Jenson would form part of a long term plan as much as he would if Brawn had stayed independent, so he has nothing to lose by moving somewhere else that isn't his team.

[christophulus]

I reckon there'll be a reasonable partnership, both drivers know what the other is capable of, and Button isn't naive enough to think he'll demolish Hamilton next year, and vice versa. When Alonso was up again Hamilton, LH was an unknown quantity, and I think his pace surprised him.

A good move for Button I think, and I reckon he'll win races next year, but not another title.

[F1boat]

Button made a sensible move.

In all honestly if Brawn GP had simply paid him what he was due, then he would have stayed. They tried to be cheap about retaining a WDC who took a 50% paycut the previous year to help pout the team, and now that he won the championship, they wouldn't even consider proper negotiations to accommodate his salary.

I'm no fan of button, but fair 9si fair. Now tha the is at mclaren, I expect him to do a better job than kovy. I don't think he beats Hamilton, but he sure will be competitive. It might be a bit closer than we think, but my money is still on Hamilton outclassing him.

Let's just hope the 2010 Mclaren is highly competitive from the start

Great comment!!!

[woody2goody]

I hope so, WT... all the best to the British lions!

Yes! Contrary to what most people are saying, I think we are going to have a great battle on our hands.

I agree with what you said about it earlier - that it will be like Vettel and Webber. Most people expected Vettel to crush Webber, and that didn't happen.

Lewis will probably come out on top, but it will be very close. Something like 5 victories to 3 and 100 points to 80 given a good car :)

McLaren will have a driver line-up capable of backing each other up like they did in '07.

[slinkster]

Personally I think Lewis will outperform Jenson but I'll happily be proved wrong. They could both learn alot from each other and I'm looking forward to seeing who comes out on top in this team next year. :-)

[ioan]

If Brawn wasn't willing to pay Button £6m a year after a world title and Mercedes backing.. maybe they didn't want him at all? Are Mercedes interfering with Brawn's selection of drivers or what?

Maybe Ross knows exactly what Button as a driver is worth and what the car was worth in the 2009 championship. ;)

[ioan]

Good luck Jenson. Seriously.

I doubt there is enough luck to help him out next season.

[Malbec]

Maybe Ross knows exactly what Button as a driver is worth and what the car was worth in the 2009 championship. ;)

Well, apparently Brawn negotiated with Button on the basis that without the best car he wasn't a top driver, using the fact that Button was beaten by Barrichello in the last half of the season. Hence he shouldn't be paid as much as, say, Hamilton who could deliver whatever the car was like.

[F1boat]

Well, apparently Brawn negotiated with Button on the basis that without the best car he wasn't a top driver, using the fact that Button was beaten by Barrichello in the last half of the season. Hence he shouldn't be paid as much as, say, Hamilton who could deliver whatever the car was like.

Button never wanted as much money as Hamilton.

[ioan]

Button never wanted as much money as Hamilton.

Who knows?

[Jag_Warrior]

Button never wanted as much money as Hamilton.

Heck, I want as much money as Hamilton. Why wouldn't Jenson? Course, what we share in common is that neither of us is going to get it. :D

Congrats to Jenson. I don't think he'll be a match for Hamilton. But I think with Button having the #1 on his car, it will keep a fire lit under Hamilton. The best thing to happen to that kid was having Alonso at McLaren a couple of years ago. And unless Jenson self destructs (which I don't think he will), this pairing should give McLaren a very good shot at the Constructors title for the next couple of seasons... assuming they build a car that's up to par.

[Valve Bounce]

This is the first time, in my memory, that two British WDC winners have driven for the same team. 2010 will be an interesting year, that's for sure. I have read this thread through and find some of the comments bizarre, others biased (against poor Bunsen) and a few complimentary. I will be cheering for Bunsen against Hamilton purely on the basis that I don't like Hamilton's character.

[gravity]

2010 should be a good fight between Lewis, Ferdie, Massa and Seb. Button will be hard worked just to squeeze into that group. (Assuming all the big-name teams bring top performing cars to the new season). Bring on 2010!

[Valve Bounce]

OK!! just to start the ball rolling: Who is willing to bet his sig with me? Mark Webber against Bunsen? . I back Mark and whoever is ahead after 4 races can determine the sig for the next 4 races for all who take this bet on.

[ClarkFan]

This is the first time, in my memory, that two British WDC winners have driven for the same team. 2010 will be an interesting year, that's for sure. I have read this thread through and find some of the comments bizarre, others biased (against poor Bunsen) and a few complimentary. I will be cheering for Bunsen against Hamilton purely on the basis that I don't like Hamilton's character.

1967 - Clark and Hill. But neither was the reigning champion that year. And Jenson may find he occupies Hill's role - #1B instead of equal #1.

Am I the only one scratching my head now? :confused: Brawn won both championships, got big money to guarantee the team's future, and then ends up hunting for a driver in the spare parts market. (If they can persuade him, Kimi is a very good spare part.) That is unusual - the closest I can remember is when Lauda walked out on Ferrari at the end of 1977, but he had reasons that Button does not. Who did Ross tick off?

ClarkFan

[Valve Bounce]

1967 - Clark and Hill.
ClarkFan

My memory has failed me. :(

[ClarkFan]

My memory has failed me. :(
Well, you don't have my Jim Clark obsession. You are forgiven.

ClarkFan

[Valve Bounce]

Well, you don't have my Jim Clark obsession. You are forgiven.

ClarkFan

Actually, Jimmy was my favourite and after he had that accident, I stopped reading anything about F1 and literally blotted out several years of F1 from my memory. I still don't remember much about F1 when he was driving. This is the honest truth.

[Jag_Warrior]

1967 - Clark and Hill. But neither was the reigning champion that year. And Jenson may find he occupies Hill's role - #1B instead of equal #1.

Am I the only one scratching my head now? :confused: Brawn won both championships, got big money to guarantee the team's future, and then ends up hunting for a driver in the spare parts market. (If they can persuade him, Kimi is a very good spare part.) That is unusual - the closest I can remember is when Lauda walked out on Ferrari at the end of 1977, but he had reasons that Button does not. Who did Ross tick off?

ClarkFan

I mean no disrespect to Jenson or his fans. But on equal money (or slightly more), I'd probably take a motivated Raikkonen over Button. But for two or three times the amount, no, Kimi just isn't THAT good. And his motivation seemingly changes the way many change their underwear.

If Mercedes ends up with Rosberg after this, perhaps they see him as having as much potential for success as Button. Plus, they'll have their German, if not two.

[Valve Bounce]

I mean no disrespect to Jenson or his fans. But on equal money (or slightly more), I'd probably take a motivated Raikkonen over Button. But for two or three times the amount, no, Kimi just isn't THAT good. And his motivation seemingly changes the way many change their underwear.

If Mercedes ends up with Rosberg after this, perhaps they see him as having as much potential for success as Button. Plus, they'll have their German, if not two.

I think this has everybody baffled. There are several questions we'd all like answered:
1. Why or how did it come about that Bunsen left Brawn.
2. Why McLaren chose Bunsen over Kimi
3. Which drivers will be confirmed at Mercedes Benz, and why these drivers were selected over Bunsen, and probably over Kimi also.

We seem to be going over these questions again and again in several threads and apart from a lot of conjecture, nobody seems to be able to get definite answers.

OK! here's Fry's explanation but we are still none the wiser yet! http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80207

Fry: "In this situation, we don't understand the logic of the decision and I think Jenson is going to have to up his game if he's going to beat Lewis on home territory."

BUT apart from anything else, one thing we can be absolutely certain is that Bunsen has a helluva lot more hair than Lewis Hamilton: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80202

[Saint Devote]

You guys do not get Jenson fans. We support Jenson because we like who he is, his driving style and that he always gives his best.

Is he better than Hamilton? Who cares? The object is to win the championship. Today Jenson IS recognized as the best in the WORLD because he is world champion [and Jense supporters are happy as can be] - he did the business and won in a way at least the last two champions could not.

He could do it again, he may, he may not - but as long as he does as he always has and does his best, we will never be disappointed and always cheer for him.

Good luck Jense on being selected to driver for Mclaren and not remaining in your comfort zone, but taking on what is probably the most difficult task in racing today, beating Hamilton as his teammate :-]]]

[Saint Devote]

With Mercedes-Benz taking Brawn over it becomes an auto-manufacturer teams.

As we all know Jenson spent TOO MANY seasons with such a team.

Realizing that MB was heading for a takeover, he could have wondered just how long MB would control themselves as far as management of the racing team is concerned, clashing with Ross.........

This MUST have alarmed Jenson and as he had "been there, done that and got the goddamn t-shirt" - Mclaren was the dream opportunity.

Auto manufacturer and a team that failed to rectify handling problems for him in 2009 or the greatest constructor team in history with the ability to re-engineer a car from a several seconds behind on the grid to a race winner in a few months!

Mclaren it HAD to be for Jenson.

[Koz]

Saint, what about the fact that the McLaren will be developed for Lewis' draving style, what will Jenson do when the car does not suit him?

[F1boat]

We assume that the car won't suit him. They may build a car which is good for both drivers.

[Daniel]

We assume that the car won't suit him. They may build a car which is good for both drivers.
Oooh look! I see a pig flying!

[Valve Bounce]

I just want to say that I have no idea what the fellow above has written because he is on my ignore list.

[Big Ben]

I think Button either has an extraordinary self esteem or he's just not ambitious enough. After 2007 why would anyone want to be LH team mate at McLaren?

[Valve Bounce]

I just want to say that I have no idea what the fellow above has written because he is on my ignore list.

I don't mean Daniel, I meant the other fellow whose two posts appear at the bottom of the previous page..

[F1boat]

I think Button either has an extraordinary self esteem or he's just not ambitious enough. After 2007 why would anyone want to be LH team mate at McLaren?

Well, Jenson is still a young man, but for a driver, I don't know. He may have only three or four years left. If he beats Lewis, he will be remembered as one of the F1 greats. If not, he can collect some good money and retire peacefuly to enjoy life or try something else like Le Mans.

[Mark]

Well, apparently Brawn negotiated with Button on the basis that without the best car he wasn't a top driver, using the fact that Button was beaten by Barrichello in the last half of the season. Hence he shouldn't be paid as much as, say, Hamilton who could deliver whatever the car was like.

That sounds like the Frank Williams approach, make the car good and it doesn't matter who you get to drive it. Brawn is probably thinking, well if Barichello can nearly be champion, then why do I need Button anyway?!

[I am evil Homer]

OK! here's Fry's explanation but we are still none the wiser yet! http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80207

Fry: "In this situation, we don't understand the logic of the decision and I think Jenson is going to have to up his game if he's going to beat Lewis on home territory."

BUT apart from anything else, one thing we can be absolutely certain is that Bunsen has a helluva lot more hair than Lewis Hamilton: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80202

More hair but less talent :D Dear god i'm also agreeing with Nick Fry!! I need to have a lie down.

[Big Ben]

I don't mean Daniel, I meant the other fellow whose two posts appear at the bottom of the previous page..


So what do you want now? You want me to go to the dictionary and do a translation? metaphysics is good, burney gumble army is satified, capitalism, nationalism etc. etc... and probably he invited some people to leave this forum... I think... I didn't really read it. It was more simple to get what the architect in matrix reloaded said than this guy.

[Valve Bounce]

So what do you want now? You want me to go to the dictionary and do a translation? metaphysics is good, burney gumble army is satified, capitalism, nationalism etc. etc... and probably he invited some people to leave this forum... I think... I didn't really read it. It was more simple to get what the architect in matrix reloaded said than this guy.

Ya got me there! :confused:

[Sonic]

That sounds like the Frank Williams approach, make the car good and it doesn't matter who you get to drive it. Brawn is probably thinking, well if Barichello can nearly be champion, then why do I need Button anyway?!

Agreed. Jens should have negotiated his contract in June when he looked like he could walk on water.

[jens]

One day has passed and I'm still stunned that Button has signed with McLaren. This just sounds so unlogical. I never imagined I'd see Hamilton and Button in the same team. :p : But then again Button managed to shock in 2004 too by preferring Williams over BAR (who looked like a better bet at that time) - so it looks like it's natural for him to make surprising moves. :p :

I can understand that "new challenge/motivation" part in his argument of going to McLaren. And surely facing Hamilton in the same team is as great challenge as one can get. But why a 3-year-deal? Surely he can get an answer to how is he capable of fairing against Lewis in a shorter time? Somehow I'm not convinced he would happily last all those three seasons in McLaren.

It also seems like Button wants to "prove" something to the wider audience, maybe also himself (that he really is a top driver). He has been called as an "unworthy champion" by many people and maybe that got him thinking - "The only way, how I can prove my status as a top driver would be... Oh, let's try!" He wouldn't prove anything against Rosberg.

[Mark]

One day has passed and I'm still stunned that Button has signed with McLaren. This just sounds so unlogical. I never imagined I'd see Hamilton and Button in the same team. :p : But then again Button managed to shock in 2004 too by preferring Williams over BAR (who looked like a better bet at that time) - so it looks like it's natural for him to make surprising moves. :p :


In the end that decision gave him the world championship. But only at the expense of driving a dog of a car for many years.

[Hondo]

I'm guessing the hope is that Button will be able to run close enough to Hamilton to ensure strong points finishes for McLaren to win the Constructor's Championship. Depending on how Alonso and Massa work out together, I think Red Bull could be a real threat for the Constructor's next year. They have the same drivers, both of them like the car, and they had a fair haul 1-2 and nose to tail finishes last year.

Out of all the established drivers available without paying Kimi's price, Button is a good choice for McLaren to back up Hamilton and score the big points when Hamilton can't.

[Sonic]

Well if it really is true that Jenson screwed himself out of €12 million by going down to McLaren HQ for a little tour then he is an even bigger idiot than I thought he was.

Option 1 - number one driver at the defending WCC with a salary of 12 million in a team that he has been with for years.

Or

Option 2 - equal number one driver (yeah right!), with a salary of 8 million in a team built around one man.

I just can't see the logic. As far as I can see the only possible motivation to go to McLaren is to prove himself - but why? MS wasn't exactly challenged from within his own teams and the term unworthy champion could hardly be applied there. So if for argument sake Jenson stayed at Brawn/MGP and won another 20 GP's and another WDC in his career it wouldn't make a shred of difference that he never went toe to toe with Hamster.

[Roamy]

Button has never been real ethical when it comes to contracts. So it is no surprise he pissed off Brawn. I suspect he will get a few bent valves next year as well. But in defense of Button while they are selling and touting a all kraut team one can't blame him for heading off for some beef and kidney pie!!

[Bagwan]

So , Button goes to Mac , knowing that he is rated generally lower than Lewis by the adoring fans .
But , he also knows that DC , HK ,and FA will all back him up if feels the need to pull the favouritism card .
That covers the down side .

The up side would be obvious , if he should be able to leave Hammy in his dust .

If he stays at Brawn , he will stay just Jensen , with a car that was a DD ahead of most of the others for the first half of the season last year , and a dip in the second half when the rest added the parts .


Although I see why NF and RB are disappointed , I also see the "breach" pointing to an attempt to pre-empt any free-market negotiating in the contract talks with Jensen , which I find a little disappointing , myself .
While "loyalty" should be a consideration , it doesn't seem to run both ways for Brawn , as they seemingly have tried to obstruct his leaving , at the same time as saying they would happily let him go to a better place if one exists .
When he looked around , they withdrew and spoke about loyalty .

The press will now dredge the Honda/Williams debacle , where Jensen will face the "loyalty" question again .

Many storm clouds on the horizon for JB , and a very , very slight chance of sunshine in the forcast .

[truefan72]

More hair but less talent :D Dear god i'm also agreeing with Nick Fry!! I need to have a lie down.

lol me too.

another point. It seems that Button has a disturbing pattern of not being frothright or decisive in his team/seat selection. We all remember the wiliams fiasco and now this is his second such drama filled incident.

[tec4]

Could we please listen to Ross Brawn; someone who knows that Jensen Button IS on same level as Lewis Hamilton, having enabled Schumacher, over more than 6 years -- NOT "has beens" in need of publicity.

I would guess that, given the Mercedes GP decision to enforce, where no other team would, Jensen Button's contract, so that testing for McLaren will not happen UNTIL after the last day of 2009 is a small example of the bad business attitude that could be expected by Jensen Button, 2009 F1 Champion, driver who WAS loyal enough to take a huge cut in wage to enable BrawnGP's future, driver who beat Lewis Hamilton in competitive racecars to win last couple races and 2009 Driver Championship.

Like Toyota and BMW, Mercedes WILL continue to influence every decision by Ross Brawn and Nick Fry -- like treating any LOYAL F1 Champion with same bad personal attitude that can be expected by rookies Rosberg and Heidfeld. It is so sad to see what bad business has done to BrawnGP, not the least bad decision to NOT keep Button AND Barrichello and more sad that VERY competitive Barrichello had only a Williams option, in a 2 team racing series.


It is obvious that Jensen Button will be very happy in a much faster 2010 McLaren MP4-25, when MercedesGP no longer have the 6 race diffuser advantage.

A chance to beat the 2008 F1 Champion in 2010-11-12 McLarens, alone, IS reason enough to select McLaren over bad German business attitude of MercedesGP -- example? see ALL German DTM series -- the Mercedes way or no way, now that Mercedes has 75% FULL control instead of 40% McLaren silence.

[Firstgear]

I'm guessing the hope is that Button will be able to run close enough to Hamilton to ensure strong points finishes for McLaren to win the Constructor's Championship.

I agree. I think that the LH & JB partnership will be pretty much a repeat of the MH & DC partnership.

[woody2goody]

Button is a lot kinder to his tyres than Hamilton. Lewis will struggle to keep the rubber in good shape with heavy fuel loads next year. A few times over the last few years, Hamilton has worked the tyres too hard after a pit stop and paid for it later on.

[tec4]

Button is a lot kinder to his tyres than Hamilton. Lewis will struggle to keep the rubber in good shape with heavy fuel loads next year. A few times over the last few years, Hamilton has worked the tyres too hard after a pit stop and paid for it later on.
Double fuel loads added to much smaller front tires will be a race winning factor, as well as Jensen Button's much longer/tougher chassis setup skills than Lewis Hamilton's 3 years setting up a near perfect McLaren.

Can't possibly imagine Jenson Button having Lewis Hamilton's accidents, in last 3 years. Without the accidents, Hamilton, should have won 2008 championship by races not his last second luck in 2008.

We can only hope to see Hamilton without accidents and Button more than competitive in the usual near perfect McLaren...perfect match for Jensen's racecar style?

[ioan]

You guys do not get Jenson fans. We support Jenson because we like who he is, his driving style and that he always gives his best.

It's just that we don't think that 'his best' is enough to support him.

[ioan]

We assume that the car won't suit him. They may build a car which is good for both drivers.

And how exactly will they do that unless they build two different cars? Which they wont give the restrictions on testing and development.

[ioan]

I don't mean Daniel, I meant the other fellow whose two posts appear at the bottom of the previous page..

Nothing. ;)

[ioan]

If he beats Lewis, he will be remembered as one of the F1 greats.

That's a bit rich. a one time wdc beating another wdc doesn't make any of them one of the F1 greats.

[Roamy]

interesting

Eddie Jordan believes Jenson Button had no option but to sign for McLaren following the Mercedes-Benz takeover of Brawn GP.

McLaren announced the signing of reigning world champion Button on a "multi-year deal" that will see the Briton paired with Lewis Hamilton from next season.

The move followed weeks of speculation over Button's future, with reports suggesting talks to extend his stay at Brawn collapsed owing to his financial demands.

However, Button's reported salary at McLaren of £6million a season over three years is, if accurate, far below what has been commanded by other world champions in recent seasons, and Jordan believes there was never a deal on the table for Button to drive for the rebranded Mercedes Grand Prix team.

"We're all assuming Jenson had the opportunity to drive at Brawn," Jordan said.

"I don't believe that is the case and my inside information is that Mercedes released him and advised him to take employment elsewhere."

[ioan]

Could we please listen to Ross Brawn; someone who knows that Jensen Button IS on same level as Lewis Hamilton...

I wonder how would Brawn know how good Button is compared to Lewis?! It's not like Brawn ever worked with Lewis, so I call BS on your claim.

[woody2goody]

I wonder how would Brawn know how good Button is compared to Lewis?! It's not like Brawn ever worked with Lewis, so I call BS on your claim.

Well I'm sure he said that Jenson was almost as good as Michael, so based on that he would be on a similar level to Lewis.

[ioan]

Well I'm sure he said that Jenson was almost as good as Michael, so based on that he would be on a similar level to Lewis.

We don't have a direct comparison between MS and Lewis either.
And almost as good as MS was probably said to massage a bit Jenson's ego, as I don't remember Rubens ever outperforming MS for half a season, not even when he was 9 years younger than now.

[DexDexter]

It's just that we don't think that 'his best' is enough to support him.

It's not. Mark my words, Lewis will totally destroy Button.

[Garry Walker]

Hilarious. I will find it very funny next year seeing Button get humiliated by Hamilton.

[Hondo]

On the other hand, Button getting beat by Hamilton won't look near as bad as Button getting beaten by Rosberg. Could be Button bailed in the nick of time.

[Valve Bounce]

interesting

Eddie Jordan believes Jenson Button had no option but to sign for McLaren following the Mercedes-Benz takeover of Brawn GP.

McLaren announced the signing of reigning world champion Button on a "multi-year deal" that will see the Briton paired with Lewis Hamilton from next season.

The move followed weeks of speculation over Button's future, with reports suggesting talks to extend his stay at Brawn collapsed owing to his financial demands.

However, Button's reported salary at McLaren of £6million a season over three years is, if accurate, far below what has been commanded by other world champions in recent seasons, and Jordan believes there was never a deal on the table for Button to drive for the rebranded Mercedes Grand Prix team.

"We're all assuming Jenson had the opportunity to drive at Brawn," Jordan said.

"I don't believe that is the case and my inside information is that Mercedes released him and advised him to take employment elsewhere."

If Eddie Jordan stood on a stack of bibles and told me it was Friday today, the first thing I'd do would be to check that on the calendar.

As far as I can see, Brawn still wants Bunsen in his team, but for some reason, Bunsen opted for what he considers to be the better car next year.

[ShiftingGears]

Button is a fool for screwing himself out of that contract. You'dve thought he would've learnt from previous contract disputes...

[Valve Bounce]

Button is a fool for screwing himself out of that contract. You'dve thought he would've learnt from previous contract disputes...

He didn't have a contract - after Brawn took over, they only signed Bunsen up for one year. It's all in Autosport.

[ShiftingGears]

He didn't have a contract - after Brawn took over, they only signed Bunsen up for one year. It's all in Autosport.

He still breached his own contract, and hence damaged chances of him signing a new contract and getting paid more.

[Saint Devote]

It's just that we don't think that 'his best' is enough to support him.

His best won the title this year and in an era where the car is more important than the driver, Jenson has managed to place himself in a Mclaren for the next three years.

Thats good enough for me.......

If you do support a driver, who do YOU support??

[Saint Devote]

And how exactly will they do that unless they build two different cars? Which they wont give the restrictions on testing and development.

The only reason they could achieve cars suitable for both drivers is because they are Mclaren.

There is no other team in racing today that can compete with them on that level.

The team is the most ambitious and technologically adept - just look how they turned around their 2009 season. Hamilton dominated at Yas Marina and would have won until he has the brake pad problem.

Significantly in the negative camber twisty bit [turn 13] the smoothest driver was Button, because even though he and Hamilton were driving those corners the same way - anticipating oversteer rather than reacting with massive sharp opposite lock - Hamilton still went into a mild corrective opposite lock exiting, Jenson was smoother and anticipated it well enough to not have to do that.

Button remains the best driver when it comes to tyre wear - I do not think that this has gone unoticed by Mclaren either.

[woody2goody]

Next year they will have the fastest driver and the one who takes care of his tyres the best. Very smart move by McLaren.

In races with high tyre wear, it's likely Jenson will do well, and Lewis will do well on tracks that are kind to the tyres.

I don't think Jenson will be beaten as badly as everyone thinks.

Regardless of preferential treatment or not, Kovalainen did not do enough, and Jenson will do better I'm almost certain.

[PSfan]

enough with the Button is easy on his tires... he's easy on the tires because he drives like a grandmother, which only works in F1 when your car is underweight thanks to some creative fueling and 2nd fuel tanks, or when the FIA/Max Mosley are out to give FOTA the middle finger, and he's fortunate enough that his team-mate hadn't got enough testing time to discover what brakes work best in the car! Button isn't as fast as Rubens so how does anyone expect him to keep up with Hamilton is beyond me... And I thought the Webber fans who expected championships at Williams where delusional! :p


**edit** ok, so maybe grandmother is a little over the top, but you get my meaning...
I'm so Bad :crazy:

[Jag_Warrior]

*popcorn anyone?* :D

[Saint Devote]

enough with the Button is easy on his tires... he's easy on the tires because he drives like a grandmother, which only works in F1 when your car is underweight thanks to some creative fueling and 2nd fuel tanks, or when the FIA/Max Mosley are out to give FOTA the middle finger, and he's fortunate enough that his team-mate hadn't got enough testing time to discover what brakes work best in the car! Button isn't as fast as Rubens so how does anyone expect him to keep up with Hamilton is beyond me... And I thought the Webber fans who expected championships at Williams where delusional! :p


**edit** ok, so maybe grandmother is a little over the top, but you get my meaning...
I'm so Bad :crazy:

Your silly jibes aside - its not only his tyres that he is easy on, but also his brakes and generally on the car. Ross Brawn alluded to this throughout the year.

I do not need to defend Button to you because his drives at Monte Carlo and at Yas Marina for example, speak for themselves - or at least were complimented by notable commentators at publications such as Autosport. At Monte Carlo Rubens was quite open about his incredulity over Jenson's pole lap.

You may also dismiss Jenson winning a championship at Mclaren, but then you would not have expected or even given Button a chance for winning another grand prix let alone doing what he did in 2009.

He proved you absolutely wrong in 2009 - so really you speak with no credibility with regards Jenson but merely the usual venom that hisses from the Jenson-haters.

[Saint Devote]

enough with the Button is easy on his tires... he's easy on the tires because he drives like a grandmother, which only works in F1 when your car is underweight thanks to some creative fueling and 2nd fuel tanks, or when the FIA/Max Mosley are out to give FOTA the middle finger, and he's fortunate enough that his team-mate hadn't got enough testing time to discover what brakes work best in the car! Button isn't as fast as Rubens so how does anyone expect him to keep up with Hamilton is beyond me... And I thought the Webber fans who expected championships at Williams where delusional! :p


**edit** ok, so maybe grandmother is a little over the top, but you get my meaning...
I'm so Bad :crazy:

in addition you dont even know what you are talking about regarding Rubens, Jenson and the Brawn BGP01.

At the start of the season the car was very different before certain updates were introduced. These had a progressive change in the handling of car which no longer responded well to Jenson's style and as Mclaren and Red Bull progressed they passed the Brawn.

Once the brakes were sorted on Rubens car, the change in the handling and the Brazilian's more aggressive style - such as throwing it into the wall at Marina Bay or tending to collide with other cars between his petulant fits - the car responded well.

Meanwhile Jenson understood what he had to do - not try and be a hero, but do what his rivals could not do. That is, run out the clock while being conservative and maintining a points lead. This he accomplished well.

His race at Yas Marina was superb and it was only that the lasp ran out that prevented him from overtaking Webber for second.

Everyone remarked that they had not seen Jenson so relaxed for years. And he drove accordingly.

His leaving Brawn is a sound decision. He knows that team iinside out. He is well acquainted with the foibles of manufacturer teams.

But the most important factor is he starkly visible: Brawn did not have the ability to recover the BGP01 from mid-season. And given the control tyres and lack of testing allowed, this is vital.

Mclaren rescued their situation and turned the car into a winner in good hands - Hamilton.

Your dismissal of Button not only ignores his proven ability and worth to team, but also insults the decision of Mclaren which is a team that can select ANY driver they want - and he will drive for them.

Mclaren haveselected Button as much as he them because he knows that 2009 was a unique year that for most of the year, both the leading f1 teams played catch-up.

And how magnificent was Mclaren? Ferrari gave up and Renault after progressing someway during the control tyre era which began in 2007 just collapsed.

Only Mclaren fought through to win.

The Button-Hamilton team is a great one. And it will not be surprising to me if it ends up where most of the winning is done by these two drivers.

[raikk]

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1490/facepalm2.jpg

Nothing against Button he's a good driver but Kimi would of been the better man for the job I'm kinda disappointed with both sides and how negotiations fell through but I wish Button good luck..

[Dave B]

Here's a thought. Most people are assuming that Jenson will get blown into the weeds by Lewis, and I'm certainly not going against that. But Button's contract is for three years - maybe he's speculating that Hamilton won't be him team mate the whole time.

It's always been assumed that if you cut Lewis he'd bleed silver, but who is to say he'll be a McLaren driver forever? Jenson could spend a year or two getting his feet under the table then find himself comfortably number one with a Kovalainenesque team mate who will support him to another Championship win.

All speculation, of course, but not impossible. Jenson may have taken a slightly longer-term view than simply trying to guess who'll have the best car in 2010.

[Saint Devote]

Here's a thought. Most people are assuming that Jenson will get blown into the weeds by Lewis, and I'm certainly not going against that. But Button's contract is for three years - maybe he's speculating that Hamilton won't be him team mate the whole time.

It's always been assumed that if you cut Lewis he'd bleed silver, but who is to say he'll be a McLaren driver forever? Jenson could spend a year or two getting his feet under the table then find himself comfortably number one with a Kovalainenesque team mate who will support him to another Championship win.

All speculation, of course, but not impossible. Jenson may have taken a slightly longer-term view than simply trying to guess who'll have the best car in 2010.

Its not important what happens beyond 2010 right now. If you listened to Jenson's interview, decided to take up the Mclaren offer BECAUSE it is being teammate to Lewis at Mclaren.

He stated that winning a second championship of course would be well and good but he wanted another challenge to KEEP him interested in f1.

Button is not afraid of a challenge and those who view it that way have judged Jenson incorrectly.

I have supported Jenson in f1 since when he tested for Prost, and this is typical Jenson :D

Do not underestimate Jenson - it has ALWAYS been the biggest mistake people make.

[Daniel]

Its not important what happens beyond 2010 right now. If you listened to Jenson's interview, decided to take up the Mclaren offer BECAUSE it is being teammate to Lewis at Mclaren.

He stated that winning a second championship of course would be well and good but he wanted another challenge to KEEP him interested in f1.

Button is not afraid of a challenge and those who view it that way have judged Jenson incorrectly.

I have supported Jenson in f1 since when he tested for Prost, and this is typical Jenson :D

Do not underestinate Jenson - it has ALWAYS been the biggest mistake people make.

Have you always had issues with separating your opinions with fact or is this just a recent thing?

Wonderboy Jenson had a team mate who is comfortably past his best and didn't have the best setup at the start of the season and when his setup was good, comfortably bent Jenson over and made him his bitch.

As much as I don't like Lewis, I agree with most people that Lewis is a far far far far far superior driver to Jenson and all things being equal probably will bury Jenson and cement Jenson in history as a 1 time champion. To me the nerves that Jenson showed this year were like those Lewis had in his first two years. The thing is Jenson is probably as good as he'll ever be and Lewis in my view will only get more confident as he goes along.

[I am evil Homer]

BTW nowhere has it been said it's a 3 yr contract..it's multi-year which could mean anything - 1 year, plus clause, 2 years plus clause.

[ioan]

The only reason they could achieve cars suitable for both drivers is because they are Mclaren.

:crazy:

[ioan]

enough with the Button is easy on his tires... he's easy on the tires because he drives like a grandmother, which only works in F1 when your car is underweight thanks to some creative fueling and 2nd fuel tanks, or when the FIA/Max Mosley are out to give FOTA the middle finger, and he's fortunate enough that his team-mate hadn't got enough testing time to discover what brakes work best in the car! Button isn't as fast as Rubens so how does anyone expect him to keep up with Hamilton is beyond me... And I thought the Webber fans who expected championships at Williams where delusional! :p


**edit** ok, so maybe grandmother is a little over the top, but you get my meaning...
I'm so Bad :crazy:

Right on the money! :D

[ioan]

Your silly jibes aside - its not only his tyres that he is easy on, but also his brakes and generally on the car.

You're right he's also easy on the gas pedal! :D

[ioan]

in addition you dont even know what you are talking about regarding Rubens, Jenson and the Brawn BGP01.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1490/facepalm2.jpg

[Valve Bounce]

We can be grateful that this move of Bunsen's is keeping us something to chat about here. Otherwise, the forum would have been deserted. :(

[ioan]

We can be grateful that this move of Bunsen's is keeping us something to chat about here. Otherwise, the forum would have been deserted. :(

True. Looks like even Bunsen is useful after all.

[Sonic]

You're right he's also easy on the gas pedal! :D

:D

[Saint Devote]

Have you always had issues with separating your opinions with fact or is this just a recent thing?

Wonderboy Jenson had a team mate who is comfortably past his best and didn't have the best setup at the start of the season and when his setup was good, comfortably bent Jenson over and made him his bitch.

As much as I don't like Lewis, I agree with most people that Lewis is a far far far far far superior driver to Jenson and all things being equal probably will bury Jenson and cement Jenson in history as a 1 time champion. To me the nerves that Jenson showed this year were like those Lewis had in his first two years. The thing is Jenson is probably as good as he'll ever be and Lewis in my view will only get more confident as he goes along.

Frank Williams does not appear to agree with you and if you recall, dear old Rubens won two grands prix and finished third in the championship - definitely past his best.

I think it is you that should pay attention to reality actually.

Listen buddy boy - I am well aware that you are one of the Jenson haters so you have no credibility on this issue because you ALWAYS attack Jenson. Regardless.

Gets to you that he is the CHAMPION huh? :D

[Saint Devote]

I just love all of your comments because it GETS you all that Jenson has won the world championship.

It is the one FACT that you would like to change, but you cannot :D

And to make it even better - he is now to drive for the top team in motor racing :D

2010? Bring it ON!!!!!

[gloomyDAY]

And to make it even better - he is now to drive for the top team in motor racing :D

2010? Bring it ON!!!!!I'm just as excited about Bunsen's switch to McLaren next year. Can't wait to see Bunsen get stomped by Hamilton!

[Roamy]

I'm just as excited about Bunsen's switch to McLaren next year. Can't wait to see Bunsen get stomped by Hamilton!


Stomping someone for 5th place in not really exciting :D

[ioan]

And to make it even better - he is now to drive for the top team in motor racing :D

Huh? I don't think Ferrari will ever consider signing Button! :D

[Saint Devote]

Huh? I don't think Ferrari will ever consider signing Button! :D

No you misread - I wrote that had already signed with the TOP team in f1, not the most emotional.

[Saint Devote]

I see all the jealous little girls are out in force this morning!! :p :

Read this: Jenson Button - World Champion 2009!!! :D

[ioan]

No you misread - I wrote that had already signed with the TOP team in f1, not the most emotional.

Maybe top team of cheating pricks?! :D

[Roamy]

Maybe top team of cheating pricks?! :D

You might want to change that to Prixs before Pino sees it !!

[ioan]

You might want to change that to Prixs before Pino sees it !!

My bad, too late. Sorry Pino.

[Daniel]

Frank Williams does not appear to agree with you and if you recall, dear old Rubens won two grands prix and finished third in the championship - definitely past his best.

I think it is you that should pay attention to reality actually.

Listen buddy boy - I am well aware that you are one of the Jenson haters so you have no credibility on this issue because you ALWAYS attack Jenson. Regardless.

Gets to you that he is the CHAMPION huh? :D

Not really.

Gobpoop aside, 5-10 years ago Rubens probably would have buried Jenson this year with that car but as I said he's past his best, which is not to say he's not still good, just not as good as he once was.

[Roamy]

Not really.

Gobpoop aside, 5-10 years ago Rubens probably would have buried Jenson this year with that car but as I said he's past his best, which is not to say he's not still good, just not as good as he once was.

So you are implying that age = slowness ?

[ioan]

So you are implying that age = slowness ?

Wow, you've got one right! :p :

[Saint Devote]

Not really.

Gobpoop aside, 5-10 years ago Rubens probably would have buried Jenson this year with that car but as I said he's past his best, which is not to say he's not still good, just not as good as he once was.

Supposition is never valid.

Only reality counts, and it is your task to recognize it. Reality is that Jenson Button is the 2009 world champion and that Barrichello failed in his task to finish second.

It is also important for you to understand how championships are won - you might refer to the 2003 championship year for enlightenment.

[Saint Devote]

To gauge how incorrect the assumtion that age means "slow" is ignorant of the great history of this sport.

[ioan]

To gauge how incorrect the assumtion that age means "slow" is ignorant of the great history of this sport.

Huh :?:

That phrase has neither head nor tail.

[Saint Devote]

Huh :?:

That phrase has neither head nor tail.

I wouldnt expect a codger like you to comprehend it - it requires basic intelligence.

Have you ever contributed to this mesage board - I dont believe you even watch motor racing - as all you do is point a corrosive gnarled finger at everyone.

You are very sad.

[PSfan]

To gauge how incorrect the assumtion that age means "slow" is ignorant of the great history of this sport.

I agree with you on that... Rubens is older then Button, but still appeared much faster :p

[pino]

ioan and Saint Devote, I am going to ask this only once : Take your personal and childish fight to PM or put eachother in your ignoring list, because if I catch you guys once again posting personal attacks/comments, you will be banned for a long long time.

[Saint Devote]

I agree with you on that... Rubens is older then Button, but still appeared much faster :p

:eek:
"Appeared" is correct.

The technical issue was that the Brawn team during the second half of 2009 could not engineer the car for Jenson's style while after rectifying the brake problems that Rubens had he began to manage it because he is an oversteer-reaction driver. Problem is that this also creates its own problems and frequently during the races he destroyed his other set tyres. Catalunya for example and at places such as Monte Carlo where Jenson excells he could not keep up either.

At the same time during the second half Jense was racing to protect his championship lead - Ross Brawn has referred to that.

It is however also unmistakeable that Mclaren disagree with your view and all others that hold it too because they have not signed Barrichello, they have signed Button for three years :s mokin:

Jenson left Brawn for that reason - he had to deal with the engineering weakness of Brawn and this does not exist at Mclaren. When a driver, such as Kovaleinen is so far away from Hamilton, it is always, at a team like Mclaren, a driver fault.

The risk that Jenson has accepted by joining is the challenge that he sees as a great opportunity. Typical courageous Jenson and one of the core reasons his supporters have such affection and admiration for him.

[Garry Walker]

The only reason they could achieve cars suitable for both drivers is because they are Mclaren.

There is no other team in racing today that can compete with them on that level.

The team is the most ambitious and technologically adept - just look how they turned around their 2009 season. Hamilton dominated at Yas Marina and would have won until he has the brake pad problem.

Significantly in the negative camber twisty bit [turn 13] the smoothest driver was Button, because even though he and Hamilton were driving those corners the same way - anticipating oversteer rather than reacting with massive sharp opposite lock - Hamilton still went into a mild corrective opposite lock exiting, Jenson was smoother and anticipated it well enough to not have to do that.
.
You know that how? Peter Windsor wrote it and you take it seriously? Congrats, the pigs are flying.



But the most important factor is he starkly visible: Brawn did not have the ability to recover the BGP01 from mid-season. And given the control tyres and lack of testing allowed, this is vital.


Because Brawn concentrated most of its resources on next years car after the GP of Turkey.





Gets to you that he is the CHAMPION huh? :D

Is Jenson winning the best thing that ever happened to you in your life?
Because that is the feeling I get from you.

[Saint Devote]

You know that how? Peter Windsor wrote it and you take it seriously? Congrats, the pigs are flying.

Because Brawn concentrated most of its resources on next years car after the GP of Turkey.

Is Jenson winning the best thing that ever happened to you in your life?
Because that is the feeling I get from you.

1 - Actually my source for that information is not Windsor but Autosport grand prix editor and Hamilton apologist, Mark Hughes.

2 - Ross Brawn said they had to balance resources and confirms my point that Jenson by joining Mclaren made the correct decision.

3 - I can't help your feelings. As a motor racing supporter the best that ever happened was when Jody won the world championship.

[Valve Bounce]

Here is how Vettel expressed his surprise on Bunsen's move to McLaren. There is also an interview (RHS) with Bunsen that is interesting. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80296

I am still surprised about Bunsen's move to McLaren, especially when Mercedes is taking over at Brawn, and also when both Brawn and Bunsen confirm it was not a question of money/salary. I feel there is still some other strong influencing factor that we don't know about, and that we may never find out.

I do remember, just after Branson announced his sponsorship of Brawn that there was one helluva altercation when Branson made a play for Bunsen's girl.
Whatever reason for Bunsen quitting Brawn, I just cannot fathom it.

[woody2goody]

Look, Jenson won the championship. He beat Rubens, Vettel, Webber, Lewis and whoever else. That will not change.

The fact that anybody is criticising his title victory is ridiculous. In fact when he won the title nearly everyone on these boards were congratulating him.

Now, based on an ASSUMPTION that he may be beaten by Hamilton next year, most people are having a go at him, calling him slow for example. I've never seen a slow driver win a World Championship, so that's rubbish.

Neither is Rubens 'past-it'. That's nonsense too. He won two races against very strong opposition.

Let's face it, if Massa, Vettel, Webber or Kimi had won this title, nobody would have been saying these things, because they would have 'earned it'. Jenson won 6 races, 3 more than anyone else, and yet somehow he doesn't deserve it according to some esteemed forum members.

Back on the actual topic of the thread, I am a bit surprised that Button has left Brawn, but to me it looks like Mercedes wanted him out. Maybe he saw a berth at McLaren and just took it, but it must have been something major that made him leave a team he's been with for 6 years.

Whatever reason for Bunsen quitting Brawn, I just cannot fathom it.

Me either and it bugs me. It has taken the gloss off his championship win somehow. As a Button fan from way back I felt he would do well with maturity and in a decent car with good team management behind him. Well, he got his chance this year and I think he made the most of it. He will go into 2010 as the current champion and that must be worth a lot in terms of confidence etc. and I would have thought that staying with Brawn rather than fitting in to a new team would have been the best option, I can't believe he left - weird, very weird.

[Roamy]

Well maybe Brawn voted for Vettel as the best driver in F1. If I had just won the championship and he voted that way then I would want to leave as well.

[F1boat]

Now, based on an ASSUMPTION that he may be beaten by Hamilton next year, most people are having a go at him, calling him slow for example. I've never seen a slow driver win a World Championship, so that's rubbish.


Well last year Lewis was undeserving, now the current champion is bashed. That's the way a forum works. But Jenson is a very good driver and he is a world champion. That's what matters. And if Lewis beats him, what? This doesn't mean that Jenson is bad. It simply means that Lewis is special.
On the other hand, if Jenson beats Lewis...

[Garry Walker]

1 - Actually my source for that information is not Windsor but Autosport grand prix editor and Hamilton apologist, Mark Hughes.
What the hell does he know about driving styles? The supposed "driving style" gurus Windsor and Hughes are comedians.

[Valve Bounce]

Well last year Lewis was undeserving, now the current champion is bashed. That's the way a forum works. But Jenson is a very good driver and he is a world champion. That's what matters. And if Lewis beats him, what? This doesn't mean that Jenson is bad. It simply means that Lewis is special.
On the other hand, if Jenson beats Lewis...

..............Anthony will get that crane and block Bunsen from exiting the pitlane. :D

[wedge]

I am still surprised about Bunsen's move to McLaren, especially when Mercedes is taking over at Brawn, and also when both Brawn and Bunsen confirm it was not a question of money/salary. I feel there is still some other strong influencing factor that we don't know about, and that we may never find out.

Perhaps it was a fluke year and Button realised this. No amount of money will make/made Brawn/Honda (delete as appropriate) front runners consistently year on year.

Perhaps some contractual terms we aren't yet privy to.

Or Bunsen genuinely wants to prove himself against Hamilton.

[Saint Devote]

Perhaps it was a fluke year and Button realised this. No amount of money will make/made Brawn/Honda (delete as appropriate) front runners consistently year on year.

Perhaps some contractual terms we aren't yet privy to.

Or Bunsen genuinely wants to prove himself against Hamilton.

If you listen to Jenson's reasons and paid attention to the second half of 2009 then his reasons for the move are evident.

You are correct because Jenson said that he had won the championship and now sought a new challenge to keep him in f1 - that the championship was of course important but its been done. Another would just be that, another.

He is moving to Mclaren because that is the biggest challenge in racing - trying to beat Lewis at Mclaren as his teammate. Is'nt Jense just great? :D

But also, look back on how Brawn had to compromise the season because of 2010 and extremely important, they could not engineer the car back to Jenson's style and the advantage was gained by Barrichello.

Anyone follosing the DTM know that the approach of Mercedes is based on the Mclaren ability with chassis. Audi have a rigid - the drivers must adapt - formula.

But Mercedes use tuning the car to suit the style of the driver - besides of course Audi bending the rules towards cheating - and the 2009 Merc has been a verey difficult car, but Paffett still won the most races and just missed his second title.

Jenson moved to Mclaren because they have the ability to engineer and accomodate two drivers with different styles and the resources to recover any dip in form during a season - their recovery in 2009 from Albert Park to the point that Hamilton WON races is the most remarkable constructor story.

No other team has that ability.

And then of course there is the manufacturer reason - I am sure that Jenson went cold when he was told that from being the Brawn team it was going to become Mercedes. Too big and what they say may not be how they actually run thngs and so what if Ross leaves?

Jenson does run the risk of huge criticism and attacks if he falters at Mclaren - but he will excell there and I think it was a brilliant move on the part of Woking and Jenson.

1 Jenson Button - Mclaren MP4 25 :D

[F1boat]

If you listen to Jenson's reasons and paid attention to the second half of 2009 then his reasons for the move are evident.

You are correct because Jenson said that he had won the championship and now sought a new challenge to keep him in f1 - that the championship was of course important but its been done. Another would just be that, another.

He is moving to Mclaren because that is the biggest challenge in racing - trying to beat Lewis at Mclaren as his teammate. Is'nt Jense just great? :D

But also, look back on how Brawn had to compromise the season because of 2010 and extremely important, they could not engineer the car back to Jenson's style and the advantage was gained by Barrichello.

Anyone follosing the DTM know that the approach of Mercedes is based on the Mclaren ability with chassis. Audi have a rigid - the drivers must adapt - formula.

But Mercedes use tuning the car to suit the style of the driver - besides of course Audi bending the rules towards cheating - and the 2009 Merc has been a verey difficult car, but Paffett still won the most races and just missed his second title.

Jenson moved to Mclaren because they have the ability to engineer and accomodate two drivers with different styles and the resources to recover any dip in form during a season - their recovery in 2009 from Albert Park to the point that Hamilton WON races is the most remarkable constructor story.

No other team has that ability.

And then of course there is the manufacturer reason - I am sure that Jenson went cold when he was told that from being the Brawn team it was going to become Mercedes. Too big and what they say may not be how they actually run thngs and so what if Ross leaves?

Jenson does run the risk of huge criticism and attacks if he falters at Mclaren - but he will excell there and I think it was a brilliant move on the part of Woking and Jenson.

1 Jenson Button - Mclaren MP4 25 :D

Well said, mate, I have a huge respect for fans like you, devoted followers of their hero!

[ArrowsFA1]

Jenson does run the risk of huge criticism and attacks if he falters at Mclaren - but he will excell there and I think it was a brilliant move on the part of Woking and Jenson.
I think he's he been subject to attacks and criticism already, and he hasn't so much as stepped into a McLaren yet, so by the time the 2010 season starts he'll be well used to it :p

Still, I also think this is a good move for JB and McLaren. Having hung in there with BAR/Honda for so long, and reaped the rewards he could easily have stayed with what he knew, even if it was being rebranded. But having won the WDC he's now set himself a new challenge which certainly shows he's not in 'cruise and collect' mode.

It's going to be fascinating to see how the Button/Hamilton combination goes next year :s mokin:

[Valve Bounce]

I think he's he been subject to attacks and criticism already, and he hasn't so much as stepped into a McLaren yet, so by the time the 2010 season starts he'll be well used to it :p

Still, I also think this is a good move for JB and McLaren. Having hung in there with BAR/Honda for so long, and reaped the rewards he could easily have stayed with what he knew, even if it was being rebranded. But having won the WDC he's now set himself a new challenge which certainly shows he's not in 'cruise and collect' mode.

It's going to be fascinating to see how the Button/Hamilton combination goes next year :s mokin:

I don't think we should see all that much about attacks and criticism from within this forum. Bunsen won the title with a sterling drive from a difficult grid position and nearly everyone here recognised his achievement and congratulated him that day. Then a very few members (who I will refrain from naming) started to shove Bunsen in everyone else's face, and of course we get the usual reaction. It is obvious that some members idolise SchM, and others have different favorites like Kimi, Massa, Mark Webber, Hamilton, Vettel, Rubens, and so on, and they just reacted in an adverse manner.

Bunsen was never a favorite of mine, but when he won I joined in the congrats. But now, when I see him praised like deity, then my reaction is to say that he's a kerbstone. Surely to goodness there is a limit to how forum members can put up with smug patronising.

If he can beat Lewis Hamilton, that's the time to really say he is very, very good. However, I do have to say that Lewis did extremely well in his rookie year, and had there not been so much shenanigans within the team, he could have won the WDC first up. Stupidity from within his team cost him the championship in his second year. Not that I like the guy's persona (Hamilton that is), but he is a bloody good driver.

So if Bunsen beat's Lewis next year (never mind winning the championship or not) then I would have to put him up there with Nigel and Damon Hill.

[Daniel]

Actually Valve during the 2 days after Button won the WDC, his favourite fan who we all know, did not post anything. There were 4 regular posters who trolled and derailed that thread before he came along with the over the top glory etc. The negetivity came along before the fanatic behaviour from what I recall. I'm not Buttons biggest fan by a long way but I defended him on that thread, and I probably should have left it well alone IMO. The same thing happened the previous year, so its not the fact people are pushing it in others faces, more like people stirring to create abit of fuss. Anyway its done now and its history.

I agree with the rest of what you said and I hope Button finds his feet at Mclaren I really do, however I don't think he'll have the same quick pace as Hamilton. What I am sure of is he'll bring in the points more regularly than Heikki, so Mclaren may have a decent shot at the WCC hopefully... :)
I take a different view of things as 1 of the 4 you mention. Some people just couldn't take the fact that Jenson wasn't getting the 100% praise that most of the champions before him got. Sometimes in motorsport there are champions who don't win championships particularly convincingly and in my mind Jenson is one of these people alongside the late Richard Burns.

I'm no Lewis fan but back in 2008 when he won I had to sit there on my chair arms crossed and with a big pout and say that he'd done a great job even though every bone in my body wanted Massa to win. Jenson's win just didn't seem as strong to me as either of Lewis' first two seasons.

As soon as people accept that others have a right to an opinion, people stop trolling for reactions from Ioan, Ioan stops reacting and the rugby themed name guy stays away or is banned then the forum will be a better place. Until then I see Pino kicking the **** out of a lot of people here :D

[Daniel]

The ban on that thread did the world of good IMO, and its clear in the way people have posted since. I would say its had an effect on all but two of us. Not naming names of course. I certainly don't react to provocative posts anymore, or if I do question something and get a sarcastic answer, I'll leave it be. I did enjoy debating with you on that thread and felt you backed up your opinion, and I don't think it was the fact people had a problem with Button which caused the problem, but the fact that some chose to leave one line insults and then claim to be the victim. Anyway.

Anyway its all water under the bridge now and we probably shouldn't be talking about it anyway. Back to topic... Peace guys :s mokin:

PS.. If you want to discuss it further Daniel, feel free to PM me, rather than get Pino hot under the collar... ;)
I agree mostly :) The ban was a good thing and has served as a warning for people.

It's water under the bridge for me too.

Part of the problem for me is the fact that people stay tribal and when one of their tribe step out of line they don't correct them or tell them off. Like on that thread when Ioan was reacting to a childish insult which was directed towards me by someone else I told Ioan that he wasn't helping himself. If more people took an active roll in moderating the forum then I think Pino would have to step in less.

[pino]

Guys let's move on thank you :)

[Daniel]

Guys let's move on thank you :)
Or what? :rolleyes:


















Kidding! Kidding! :D

[scaliwag]

I admit I have not read every post on this thread, so if I am repeating another post I apologize, so here goes.

If the rumors are correct re MS joining brawn/Mercedes, and if JB was aware of that possibility, and given the history of MS+Brawn+Benetton+Ferrari=MS as No 1 in any team he has headed, I can only surmise JB does not wish to be another MS rear gunner.
And for of those of you who remember my prediction when MS/BR/TOD resigned from Ferrari, here it is, it was words to the effect don't be surprised if Brawn+MS turn up at Honda.

Regards scaliwag.

[Firstgear]

Do you think he will be anything more than a rear gunner for Lewis at Mac? It may not be as obvious as in Ferrari, but 3 to 4 races into the season he'll be making accusations similar to what Rubens was making this year.

[ioan]

Bunsen was never a favorite of mine, but when he won I joined in the congrats. But now, when I see him praised like deity, then my reaction is to say that he's a kerbstone. Surely to goodness there is a limit to how forum members can put up with smug patronising.

You're on the right path! ;)

[ioan]

If the rumors are correct re MS joining brawn/Mercedes, and if JB was aware of that possibility, and given the history of MS+Brawn+Benetton+Ferrari=MS as No 1 in any team he has headed, I can only surmise JB does not wish to be another MS rear gunner.

You're right it's much better to lose to a 1 time WDC than to a record breaking 7 times one, NOT!

[K-Pu]

You're on the right path! ;)

Yep, and who is really convinced that Button will do a good job at McLaren? Or even better, who thinks he is not going to be totally annihilated by Hamilton?

[ioan]

Yep, and who is really convinced that Button will do a good job at McLaren? Or even better, who thinks he is not going to be totally annihilated by Hamilton?

Some saint.

[K-Pu]

Hamilton is only one driver JB needs to be cautious of next year IMO. The grid is the most competitive its been for 16 years, and with drivers like Rosberg moving up the ladder into possible race winning cars, its certainly going to be exciting to watch. :)

And Alonso in a Ferrari? Or Vettel in a Red Bull?

[wedge]

Jenson moved to Mclaren because they have the ability to engineer and accomodate two drivers with different styles

I don't buy it at all.

Look at Prost and Senna or even Alonso and Hamilton.

The top dogs have very little excuses.

We'll see just how 'over rated' Bunsen is next year.

[Saint Devote]

I don't buy it at all.

Look at Prost and Senna or even Alonso and Hamilton.

The top dogs have very little excuses.

We'll see just how 'over rated' Bunsen is next year.

I did not write anything as an excuse and Jenson was quite clear. He said that to keep him in f1 he needed another challenge and trying to win another championship was not enough.

Secondly, if Jenson acquits himself as well as the above teammates relative to each other then he will have met ALL expectations - who wins or does not win the championship when the drivers are that close, the difference is a place. Of course I would want Jenson to win ahead of Lewis, but if in 2010 he is just behind at the end, I think that would be fine too.

If Jenson were seeking an excuse of anty sort he would not have moved to Mclaren. As we have seen, Lewis is not a driver to be trifled with. You have to take him seriously all the time. Becoming Lewis' teammate at Mclaren and be the current world champion illuminates that Jenson has ironclad confidence in himself - Nigel Mansell type confidence and there are few drivers with that!!!

And all the reasons I gave I stick by. Read a bit and you will arrive at the same conclusion.

[Firstgear]

Yep, and who is really convinced that Button will do a good job at McLaren? Or even better, who thinks he is not going to be totally annihilated by Hamilton?
I think he can do a good job while being annihilated by Hamilton.

Just like DC did in 1999 for example. MH won the WDC with 76 points. DC brought in enough points (48) for the WCC.

DC did a good job, in helping to get the WCC, but MH scored more than 1.5X as many points. I think you could call that being "annihilated".

[Saint Devote]

Some saint.

And you ARE FULLY aware of the connections that Saints have, so naturally I would know :angel:

[Saint Devote]

I think he can do a good job while being annihilated by Hamilton.

Just like DC did in 1999 for example. MH won the WDC with 76 points. DC brought in enough points (48) for the WCC.

DC did a good job, in helping to get the WCC, but MH scored more than 1.5X as many points. I think you could call that being "annihilated".

Besides the difference being that pitlane disagrees with you, that Jenson won a championship and that your opinion is hope rather than fact.

All through Jenson's career, as a supporter of his, I have encountered people like you. Before he won a grand prix they said he would never, then he would never win another and as for a championship - well it was not unknown to be laughed at.

Now he is champion - much to the distress of his detractors :D

He won his title by dominating during the first third of the season, including winning the Monaco Grand Prix in the most champion-like of styles, where Hamilton, the driver you seek to "annihilate" Jenson, threw his car into the scenery.

Jenson is not DC runner-up - he is Jenson Button - world champion.

Get it right!

[Saint Devote]

Hamilton is only one driver JB needs to be cautious of next year IMO. The grid is the most competitive its been for 16 years, and with drivers like Rosberg moving up the ladder into possible race winning cars, its certainly going to be exciting to watch. :)

Of course it will be exciting.

And Jenson has positioned himself well in addition to accepting the biggest challenge as teammate to Lewis at Mclaren.

But he also knows that just as Brawn lost their way in engineering the car during the second half of 2009, Mclaren is the only team today that can triumph over Adrian Newey.

[Ranger]

I think he can do a good job while being annihilated by Hamilton.

Just like DC did in 1999 for example. MH won the WDC with 76 points. DC brought in enough points (48) for the WCC.

DC did a good job, in helping to get the WCC, but MH scored more than 1.5X as many points. I think you could call that being "annihilated".

Ferrari won the WCC in 1999.

"Annihilation" is very much a perception that is often not backed up by statistics.

I could argue that Webber 'annihilated' DC in 2007 despite DC scoring more points, due to the atrocious unreliability of the RB3.

[ioan]

I could argue that Webber 'annihilated' DC in 2007 despite DC scoring more points, due to the atrocious unreliability of the RB3.

You could argue without a base for your argument?

[K-Pu]

Ferrari won the WCC in 1999.

"Annihilation" is very much a perception that is often not backed up by statistics.

I could argue that Webber 'annihilated' DC in 2007 despite DC scoring more points, due to the atrocious unreliability of the RB3.

So we have a very similar idea of "annihilation", and of course there could be the case of a pilot being annihilated despite having scored more points. Imagine you are in a weak team, you are constantly ahead of your team mate but neither you nor your teammate score any points (à la Nakajima), but suddenly your teammate gets a fluke 6th position and ends up better than you in the final standings. Who is the best there? The one who has been consistently doing a better job and being ahead of the other or the one who gets some fluke points?

A bit silly example, but the point is that annihilation is not always a matter of statistics, and in the case of Button well... I rate Barrichello higher than him so there you have my idea of no-so-total-annihilation in this case, but annihilation in the end. Maybe a low-grade annihilation, annihilatie maybe :D

[Saint Devote]

So we have a very similar idea of "annihilation", and of course there could be the case of a pilot being annihilated despite having scored more points. Imagine you are in a weak team, you are constantly ahead of your team mate but neither you nor your teammate score any points (à la Nakajima), but suddenly your teammate gets a fluke 6th position and ends up better than you in the final standings. Who is the best there? The one who has been consistently doing a better job and being ahead of the other or the one who gets some fluke points?

A bit silly example, but the point is that annihilation is not always a matter of statistics, and in the case of Button well... I rate Barrichello higher than him so there you have my idea of no-so-total-annihilation in this case, but annihilation in the end. Maybe a low-grade annihilation, annihilatie maybe :D

Clearly your view of Barrichello is not shared by Brawn or Mclaren otherwise it would have been Jenson at Williams and Rubens at Brawn or Mclaren.

[Jag_Warrior]

Hamilton is only one driver JB needs to be cautious of next year IMO. The grid is the most competitive its been for 16 years, and with drivers like Rosberg moving up the ladder into possible race winning cars, its certainly going to be exciting to watch. :)

The past three seasons have been great. I'm thinking next year could be the best one in a loooong time. I'm really looking forward to it.

[Saint Devote]

Jenson at Mclaren which means he has joined a very image conscious team - Lewis is always immaculately turned out which means:

Jense is going to shave his beard - good!
And he will have a neat very short haircut as well.

All ship shape and Bristol fashion!

He will look ten years younger!

I hope he returns to his original helmet colours and keeps it as Lewis does and not go for his design with Mclaren colors.

Wonder if he will be allowed to keep the Monster energy drink top on his lid?!

[Daniel]

Jenson at Mclaren which means he has joined a very image conscious team - Lewis is always immaculately turned out which means:

Jense is going to shave his beard - good!
And he will have a neat very short haircut as well.

All ship shape and Bristol fashion!

He will look ten years younger!

I hope he returns to his original helmet colours and keeps it as Lewis does and not go for his design with Mclaren colors.

Wonder if he will be allowed to keep the Monster energy drink top on his lid?!
Have you been drinking or smoking?

[Valve Bounce]

...........or communicating with the departed. :eek:

[leopard]

I have the same opinion, Jenson needs to shave his beard and to have a neat very short haircut as well. Staying that way like today he reminds me of something... ;)

[K-Pu]

Clearly your view of Barrichello is not shared by Brawn or Mclaren otherwise it would have been Jenson at Williams and Rubens at Brawn or Mclaren.

I also rate waaaay better Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen than Button and none ot them are in Merc and Hamilton is at McLaren because he´s been raised up there.

Does being a good driver mean you have to be in a certain team?

[Daniel]

I shudder to think what you were doing whilst writing this post!!.. :eek:

But I do agree that he will be expected to sharpen up his image considering Mclaren's sponsors are the likes of Hugo Boss and Tag Heuer etc.

Will he keep the monster energy drink logo? No, it'll more likely be "Creep Spray" or some product to repel stalkers and over obsessed fans I would have thought.. ;) :)
LOL Creep spray :D Comedy gold......

I do shudder to think of what was going on when he was writing that to...

I mean Bristol fashion? Wtf?

[Valve Bounce]

LOL Creep spray :D Comedy gold......

I do shudder to think of what was going on when he was writing that to...

I mean Bristol fashion? Wtf?

Hey!! You know!! some people can type with one hand.

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah but you can usually tell because they tend to use double exclamation marks!! :p

Usually a whole string of exclamation marks. :D

[WSRfan82]

Frank Williams does not appear to agree with you and if you recall, dear old Rubens won two grands prix and finished third in the championship - definitely past his best.

I think it is you that should pay attention to reality actually.

Listen buddy boy - I am well aware that you are one of the Jenson haters so you have no credibility on this issue because you ALWAYS attack Jenson. Regardless.

Gets to you that he is the CHAMPION huh? :D

i think it does :D

[Daniel]

i think it does :D
You think wrong.

[Saint Devote]

I mean Bristol fashion? Wtf?

:dozey: Clearly your education and vocabulary are seriously lacking based on your reaction above. Tch, tch - Cie la vie. Hein?

[Saint Devote]

You think wrong.

Gets you that Jense is WORLD CHAMPION :D :D :D

[Daniel]

Gets you that Jense is WORLD CHAMPION :D :D :D
Not really *shrugs shoulders* he won the most races this year and got the most points.

[Daniel]

:dozey: Clearly your education and vocabulary are seriously lacking based on your reaction above. Tch, tch - Cie la vie. Hein?

Nice little personal attack there my friend :)

Perhaps you heard something on the TV back in the 70's or something and think it's a widely used term these days? Which it doesn't appear to be. But what do I know? I only live in the UK :)

[airshifter]

It seems this was an unexpected move to say the least, and most are caught off guard by it. :)

For Jenson making a move to a team with a solid background and very few really bad years in recent history was probably a no brainer. Without the Honda money that developed the Brawn car it's unlikely they will retain a car with a reasonable advantage against most others especially early in the season. They gambled on the DD difuser and won last year, but with all the changes the long standing teams will likely gain back some ground.

Lewis can at times be his own worst enemy by pushing too hard when it's not needed. Though Jenson did push a little more than needed the WDC title was still up for grabs, so he had justification to overdrive a little. If Lewis screws up Jenson could benefit.

With the no refueling rule I'm sure the cars will be able to transer fuel in order to adjust balance. This might help them build a car that better suits the two differing driving styles. Only time will tell.

My personal prediction is that without a large car advantage to give an early season points boost, we'll hear Jension crying favoritism within a few races of being humbled on track by Lewis.

[Saint Devote]

It seems this was an unexpected move to say the least, and most are caught off guard by it. :)

For Jenson making a move to a team with a solid background and very few really bad years in recent history was probably a no brainer. Without the Honda money that developed the Brawn car it's unlikely they will retain a car with a reasonable advantage against most others especially early in the season. They gambled on the DD difuser and won last year, but with all the changes the long standing teams will likely gain back some ground.

Lewis can at times be his own worst enemy by pushing too hard when it's not needed. Though Jenson did push a little more than needed the WDC title was still up for grabs, so he had justification to overdrive a little. If Lewis screws up Jenson could benefit.

With the no refueling rule I'm sure the cars will be able to transer fuel in order to adjust balance. This might help them build a car that better suits the two differing driving styles. Only time will tell.

My personal prediction is that without a large car advantage to give an early season points boost, we'll hear Jension crying favoritism within a few races of being humbled on track by Lewis.

As a result of all the years of struggle by Jenson, and he did NOT whine and complain outside of frustration, many people forgot how good he is. When he peformed well and only finished behind the dominating Ferraris for third - this too was forgotten.

Now that Jenson Alexander Lyons is world champion, there are many that do not WANT to recognize reality - cognitive dissonance.

Mclaren signed Jenson, yes to have another driver that can win the 2010 championship, but primarily because it has been a decade since winning the constructors title.

Jenson because he has always wanted to race for Mclaren, because Mclaren is today, the best team technologically and because he wanted another challenge now that he has won the title. Lewis Hamilton iin Mclaren represents that.

The Jenson-sceptics or worse, haters, always find reason why Jenson will not succeed. This happened before he won his first grand prix, then he would not win again and so on.

The reality of history is on the side of Jenson's supporters and not his detractors :D

[Daniel]

Please stop the one handed typing.

[F1boat]

I do have a question old Saint, what do you think are Jenson's faults?

Saint critisized JB during the money argument with Ross Brawn.

[jens]

At least the good thing about Button's move to McLaren is that we will finally get an answer, how fast this "smooth driving style" really is. He barely makes any mistakes and is extremely consistent, so the main critical question has been for years about raw pace. And finally he'll have a real ace as a benchmark to evaluate the ultimate pace.

[ioan]

I do have a question old Saint, what do you think are Jenson's faults?

Hopefully he'll answer your question.

IMO Jenson has mainly 2 faults:

He's easy on the car, especially on the gas pedal.

Otherwise maybe he could show a bit more speed when the car isn't fastest by a mile. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Hopefully he'll answer your question.

IMO Jenson has mainly 2 faults:

He's easy on the car, especially on the gas pedal.

Otherwise maybe he could show a bit more speed when the car isn't fastest by a mile. ;)

Common!! be real! how can a curbstone show more speed? :p :

[Triumph]

At least the good thing about Button's move to McLaren is that we will finally get an answer, how fast this "smooth driving style" really is. He barely makes any mistakes and is extremely consistent, so the main critical question has been for years about raw pace. And finally he'll have a real ace as a benchmark to evaluate the ultimate pace.

Will he get a car that is able to be set up for his style though?

If everything is built around Lewis, then is there enough adjustability in the car to get it set up for Jenson? I hope so.

[Saint Devote]

I too was thrilled when JB clinched the title this year, as I was beginning to accept that he might not get there. I've never been his biggest fan, but I did take pleasure from seeing yet another British champion.

I do have a question old Saint, what do you think are Jenson's faults? I am yet to read a post where you do anything but heap praise on the guy, and am interested to see if this misunderstood chap has any faults in your eyes. I've been a big fan of Lewis since his Formula 3 days, yet I can accept that he is far from perfect as an all round driver. I'll defend him on here within reason, but I will not warble on about what a great human being he is etc etc. It would be nice to see a more reasoned arguement from you for a change. Not everyone who questions elements of his driving is a hater. I for one am looking forward to seeing how he does at Mclaren next year, and hopefully pairing them in the same car will be consolation for the infamous triathlon bet which apparently showed that Lewis was the weaker of the two. :)

I don't like to use the term faults, for any driver. But I know what you mean. Also, the only time I discuss Jenson is when people are attacking him.

Jenson needs to have a car working just right otherwise his qualifying suffers and as we have witnessed this year it has a sigificant effect on races.

That is why, aside from his desire always to race for the Woking team, he has signed. He requires a team that can iron out faults more rapidly than any other and one capable of fine tuning it according to a driver's style better than any other.

Nevertheless it is also a big risk because of his requirements but a challenge that Jenson required now that the championship is won.

That triathlon bet can only go away of Lewis enters the next one. It was also not so muh his withdrawal as much as he had his father do it under the guise of a "manager decision".

[Saint Devote]

Saint critisized JB during the money argument with Ross Brawn.

Thank you, yes I did. I don't relish criticizing him however.

[Saint Devote]

Anyway bring on the next challenge as it'll be great to watch.. :)

Jenson and Lewis will set the tone for their fans in 2010. Unlike previous great rivalries it will I am sure, not deteriorate into vitriol and rancour. As Anthony Hamilton likes to mention "its all good fun" - seeing both dads in the same pits is going to be interesting.

As Jenson supporters everyone is aware of the challenge that has been accepted - to beat Hamilton at Mclaren. It is tremendously exciting especially that he is now a Mclaren driver :D Jenson is up to it and will do his best - he always has.

I hope Mclaren produce the type of car they are so capable of and, it WILL be great for Formula One. Given that tyre wear should be the most critical of factors with no more refuelling stops, Jenson is well prepared.

Watch out Lewis!!! :)

[Valve Bounce]

You know what! I don't really believe that Bunsen is a curbstone or Kerbstone, nor do I believe anyone else here does either. But as long as I keep reading these silly gloating Bunsen posts about how wonderful he is, then my posts will continue to claim his association with kerbstones.

However, I do expect Lewis Hamilton will outscore Bunsen easily next year, although the reasons for this may be, in some part, due to the preference of McLaren to treat Lewis more kindly. (or words to that effect).

So watch out, Bunsen!!

[Saint Devote]

You know what! I don't really believe that Bunsen is a curbstone or Kerbstone, nor do I believe anyone else here does either. But as long as I keep reading these silly gloating Bunsen posts about how wonderful he is, then my posts will continue to claim his association with kerbstones.

However, I do expect Lewis Hamilton will outscore Bunsen easily next year, although the reasons for this may be, in some part, due to the preference of McLaren to treat Lewis more kindly. (or words to that effect).

So watch out, Bunsen!!

I am confident that Mclaren will not compromise Jenson in any way. Over the winter testing he will prepare for 2010.

It was a personal issue that destroyed the team in 2007 and not that Alonso or Hamilton received inferior equipment. We are all aware that Alonso is a paranoid sort to say the least.

Jenson has won the championship and has been driving differently since Interlagos - he has been aggresive and he is not a crasher and does not panic - Lewis tends to crash at critical moments and becomes flustered unless he is in a dominant position.

On the other hand Jenson requires a car to be in the ideal zone while Lewis does not.

In 2010 tyre wear will be vital. Jenson, according to the Toyota CEO this year is significantly easier on his tyres than anyone else and it was not unusual for Lewis to cook his tyres regardless.

Each driver has his strengths and weaknesses but overall no matter what the situation is as long as the competition between the two is managed well by Whitmarsh and cooperation of the drivers, it will be a magnificent contest between two world champions and whichever driver wins the contest so be it.

As a member of Jenson's Barmy Army, we know he will do his best and whether he wins the championship or not in 2010 or finishes behind Hamilton or in front, that is most important.

Just like Damon Hill, Jenson is a racing driver that treats success and difficulty the same and is a deserving champion who does not cheat and never asked Brawn to favor him. That is character.

Today the anniversary of Graham Hill's death, a thought is that he would have been immensely proud of how Damon conducted himself especially when he was cheated out of the championship in 1995.

Similarly John Button is around to see his son achieve his goal and in the same way can be proud of Jenson for the WAY he won not seeking favour from his team like Alonso and others.

[Valve Bounce]

And someone came to all this after communicating with the departed :rolleyes: again.

[Daniel]

I am confident that Mclaren will not compromise Jenson in any way. Over the winter testing he will prepare for 2010.

It was a personal issue that destroyed the team in 2007 and not that Alonso or Hamilton received inferior equipment. We are all aware that Alonso is a paranoid sort to say the least.

Jenson has won the championship and has been driving differently since Interlagos - he has been aggresive and he is not a crasher and does not panic - Lewis tends to crash at critical moments and becomes flustered unless he is in a dominant position.

On the other hand Jenson requires a car to be in the ideal zone while Lewis does not.

In 2010 tyre wear will be vital. Jenson, according to the Toyota CEO this year is significantly easier on his tyres than anyone else and it was not unusual for Lewis to cook his tyres regardless.

Each driver has his strengths and weaknesses but overall no matter what the situation is as long as the competition between the two is managed well by Whitmarsh and cooperation of the drivers, it will be a magnificent contest between two world champions and whichever driver wins the contest so be it.

As a member of Jenson's Barmy Army, we know he will do his best and whether he wins the championship or not in 2010 or finishes behind Hamilton or in front, that is most important.

Just like Damon Hill, Jenson is a racing driver that treats success and difficulty the same and is a deserving champion who does not cheat and never asked Brawn to favor him. That is character.

Today the anniversary of Graham Hill's death, a thought is that he would have been immensely proud of how Damon conducted himself especially when he was cheated out of the championship in 1995.

Similarly John Button is around to see his son achieve his goal and in the same way can be proud of Jenson for the WAY he won not seeking favour from his team like Alonso and others.
:rotflmao:

VB I suggest you use the ignore function, I'm doing it right now.....

[Valve Bounce]

If I'm honest I only read up until this point, and I'd agree that Jenson is not a "crasher" as you put it. The bit where you say that Lewis tends to crash at critical moments caught my attention however. I will agree Lewis has made a few mistakes whilst under pressure, notably Brazil 2007, and Canada 2008, but I can only think of one incident where he has crashed whilst pushing for points. This would be Monza 2009, and hardly qualifies him as a crasher. This particualr incident showed that he was not willing to accept less points than he thought he could get whilst driving a largely inferior car. Yes he made a mistake, but its this type of driving on the limit that eventually makes the greats of the sport IMO. Jenson is still a long way behind Lewis in this style, and next year will either make or break him IMO.. :)

Didn't Bunsen crash into some sorta wall when he was being pursued by SchM in a race some time ago? Can't remember the exact details, but he did look silly.

[Daniel]

If I'm honest I only read up until this point, and I'd agree that Jenson is not a "crasher" as you put it. The bit where you say that Lewis tends to crash at critical moments caught my attention however. I will agree Lewis has made a few mistakes whilst under pressure, notably Brazil 2007, and Canada 2008, but I can only think of one incident where he has crashed whilst pushing for points. This would be Monza 2009, and hardly qualifies him as a crasher. This particualr incident showed that he was not willing to accept less points than he thought he could get whilst driving a largely inferior car. Yes he made a mistake, but its this type of driving on the limit that eventually makes the greats of the sport IMO. Jenson is still a long way behind Lewis in this style, and next year will either make or break him IMO.. :)

Rather..... and even as a Lewis hater I quite respected him for pushing at Monza this year. It shows that he's not a quitter.

[Saint Devote]

If I'm honest I only read up until this point, and I'd agree that Jenson is not a "crasher" as you put it. The bit where you say that Lewis tends to crash at critical moments caught my attention however. I will agree Lewis has made a few mistakes whilst under pressure, notably Brazil 2007, and Canada 2008, but I can only think of one incident where he has crashed whilst pushing for points. This would be Monza 2009, and hardly qualifies him as a crasher. This particualr incident showed that he was not willing to accept less points than he thought he could get whilst driving a largely inferior car. Yes he made a mistake, but its this type of driving on the limit that eventually makes the greats of the sport IMO. Jenson is still a long way behind Lewis in this style, and next year will either make or break him IMO.. :)

Crasher in this case does not refer to the Andrea de Crasheris type obviously - Lewis also put it into the wall at Monte Carlo during q1 which I consider his greatest error of the year. These are critical junctures and Jenson avoids this. Lewis is in his third year, is a world champion and was feted - he should not make these msitakes.

No matter what his intention at Monza was - he is a world champion and is supposed to handle the situation. There are no excuses. He is lucky that Whitmarsh and not a man like Ken Tyrrell manages the team. And the car was fine by mid-season.

And no, the greats of the sport are made by those who can push AND keep it on the island.

Next year will NOT "make or break Jenson" - what a nefarious statement. For the first time in his career, in 2009 Jenson had a good car, produces a first half of the season that compares to any driver in history - especially at Monte Carlo and people like yourself attempt to undermine that achievement? Abominable.

The period that "made" and did not "break" him were the years he spent in bad cars knowing full well what he could do in a good car.

Lewis has led a charmed life in f1 compared to Jenson. At last Jenson is in the best team in f1 and will race as world champion just as we saw him do at Interlagos and the circuit that was constructed by paying workers $4 per hour - Yas Marina.

But that is all the past and in my view Mclaren have the strongest pairing in f1 today. They have not won the constructors title for ten years - I predict that in 2010, they will. They typically build a neutral car and strive for performance - this will at least suit Jenson and will also suit Hamilton.

[Valve Bounce]

I think Senna used to crash quite a bit, but I considered him as a rather good driver. I also seem to remember SchM had quite a few moments of indiscretion, and he wasn't all that bad a driver either. Of course they can't measure up to Super Bunsen, that is.

[Daniel]

Firstly I have not tried to rubbish Jenson's achievement in that post as you have suggested. I expect all drivers to make mistakes once in a a while as they are only human, and even the greats do this. To say Lewis' crash at Monaco was something that should have been avoided is naive IMO. Take a look at the videos here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AiSP5hAKeE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7cnS-Z2aeA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gefd6Qc1Wo4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvqOhWdyTUc&feature=PlayList&p=0FC4FFA61843A30B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjHQIyetNE

I think you'll be hard pushed to find a legend of the sport who hasn't managed to crash at some point whilst fighting for a championship. I may be wrong of course, but once you start to remove names like Senna, Schumacher, Hill, Button, Hamilton, Schekter etc etc from the greats list, what criteria do we use to assess a "great"? Not trying to be pedantic but you sometimes make some strange claims... :)
Henners, a liberal application of the ignore button will clear that nasty infection right up you know :)

[Valve Bounce]

Firstly I have not tried to rubbish Jenson's achievement in that post as you have suggested. I expect all drivers to make mistakes once in a a while as they are only human, and even the greats do this. To say Lewis' crash at Monaco was something that should have been avoided is naive IMO. Take a look at the videos here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AiSP5hAKeE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7cnS-Z2aeA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gefd6Qc1Wo4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvqOhWdyTUc&feature=PlayList&p=0FC4FFA61843A30B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjHQIyetNE

I think you'll be hard pushed to find a legend of the sport who hasn't managed to crash at some point whilst fighting for a championship. I may be wrong of course, but once you start to remove names like Senna, Schumacher, Hill, Button, Hamilton, Schekter etc etc from the greats list, what criteria do we use to assess a "great"? Not trying to be pedantic but you sometimes make some strange claims... :)

Even the great Jimmy Clark, crashed his car.

[wedge]

JYS famously criticised Senna as dangerous. Senna's hard racing instincts got him into trouble a few times none more famously than Italy 1988 Senna collided with Schlesser. James Hunt - at that moment in time blamed Schlesser but a lot of post race accounts have blamed Senna.

In Monaco that year also Senna fell asleep and crashed out of the race whilst in a comfortable lead. Senna later walked back and sulked like a baby in his apartment.

Schumi - so called rainmeister and super intelligent crashed out of the first lap of Monaco wet in 1996, and strangely decided to stay out on destroyed inters at a drying Hungary 2006.

They're human beings. They'll make mistakes.


In 2010 tyre wear will be vital. Jenson, according to the Toyota CEO this year is significantly easier on his tyres than anyone else and it was not unusual for Lewis to cook his tyres regardless.

Whereas the Bridgestone engineers have said in F1 Racing Bunsen benefited more from the car. Any other car and Bunsen looks nothing special.

[Saint Devote]

Didn't Bunsen crash into some sorta wall when he was being pursued by SchM in a race some time ago? Can't remember the exact details, but he did look silly.

Silly no - but it was his mistake. The only time he ever crashed at the Canadian Grand Prix in 2005. He started on pole beating Schumacher into second place - Fisichella and Alonso came from behind to take first and second. But Jenson in third on lap 48 went wide at the hairpin because the rear brakes locked up went onto the marbles and he had massive understeer as a result and into the wall.

Jenson said it was his mistake and that he ought to have anticipated the situation.

[Saint Devote]

JYS famously criticised Senna as dangerous.

Whereas the Bridgestone engineers have said in F1 Racing Bunsen benefited more from the car. Any other car and Bunsen looks nothing special.

Of course Jenson benefited ffrom the car - he was the driver that used his car best and won the title. Simple.

Senna was not only dangerous and should have been banned - he also cheated.

[garyshell]

Senna was not only dangerous and should have been banned - he also cheated.

"Oh no you di'int"

Oh, man here comes the feces storm. Wait for it.

Gary

[Saint Devote]

"Oh no you di'int"

Oh, man here comes the feces storm. Wait for it.

Gary

:D Thats funny!

PS: George Carlin was the BEST!!! Never miss a chance to watch him :D

[Valve Bounce]

Anyone here remember anything about a dodgy fuel tank with a hidden compartment? But that ain't cheating - that's innovation. Pity the FIA didn't see it that way.

[Roamy]

Of course Jenson benefited ffrom the car - he was the driver that used his car best and won the title. Simple.

Senna was not only dangerous and should have been banned - he also cheated.


this is could stuff could you tell us about the cheating?? dangerous we can accept.

[ArrowsFA1]

Any other car and Bunsen looks nothing special.
But can't the same be said about most other drivers? We can probably count on one hand the number of drivers would could win races and championships in a fair to middling car, let alone a poor one.

Jenson, when provided with the opportunity, made the most of it and produced wins and a championship. He couldn't have done much more. It doesn't really matter now what he did in the Williams, Benetton-Renault, BAR or Honda...in 2009 he proved he can get the job done.

[Valve Bounce]

But can't the same be said about most other drivers? We can probably count on one hand the number of drivers would could win races and championships in a fair to middling car, let alone a poor one.

Jenson, when provided with the opportunity, made the most of it and produced wins and a championship. He couldn't have done much more. It doesn't really matter now what he did in the Williams, Benetton-Renault, BAR or Honda...in 2009 he proved he can get the job done.

If my memory serves me correctly, Sterling Moss seemed to do OK in quite a few different brands of cars. Then there was Fangio - he wasn't too bad either. But I am not aware of any drivers who could win championships in a fair to middling car, let alone a poor one. Maybe Luke Skywalker perhaps - but I'm just guessing here.

Maybe Wedge was overcome by the thought of those dodgy diffusers.

[Saint Devote]

But can't the same be said about most other drivers? We can probably count on one hand the number of drivers would could win races and championships in a fair to middling car, let alone a poor one.

Jenson, when provided with the opportunity, made the most of it and produced wins and a championship. He couldn't have done much more. It doesn't really matter now what he did in the Williams, Benetton-Renault, BAR or Honda...in 2009 he proved he can get the job done.

Applause rings round Silverstone......!!! :s mokin:

Great post!

[Saint Devote]

Rather..... and even as a Lewis hater I quite respected him for pushing at Monza this year. It shows that he's not a quitter.

You are a Lewis hater? Well clearly your vitriol for Jenson is no less - you are really not going to enjoy 2010 and must have absolutely been beside yourself this season.

Don't get the hating drivers thing...

[Saint Devote]

this is could stuff could you tell us about the cheating?? dangerous we can accept.

The whole ramming people off the circuit oevre, remember now?!

[Mark]

Don't get the hating drivers thing...

Quite. I have drivers I like and drivers I don't particularly like. To say that you 'hate' one is rather strong!