Button/Brawn Situation

[JBAFCB]

I have a feeling Jense really could leave Brawn GP now. Before I didn't think it was possible but now it appears it may well be as Brawn will not pay the £8M or so Jense is after

I would say you could count the amount of drivers on one hand who would have taken such a big pay cut and pay all expenses after just signing such a big contract and I think Brawn are taking the mick a little, it's not like Jense is demanding the £30M plus the Kimi was on last season to do nothing

It's a double edge sword for me as Jense wouldnt have won that title without Brawn, but Jense has been so loyal to the team and I think as champion he's worth 8M at the very least

Part of me would love to see him go up against Lewis at Mclaren. What does everyone think will happen?

[rabf1]

If he actually gets a reasonable offer from Maclaren I think he should take it. I just don't see Brawn getting lucky with their design again.

[UltimateDanGTR]

im not sure macca is much of an option any more, kimi seems favourite to go there, and i hear kimis management team were shown round the macca base in woking as guests of martin whitmarsh.

so my bet is jense staying at brawn with some sort of compromise reached between the two parties involved, i think they will both see it as their best move.

[Sonic]

If Jenson does leave (and IMO he won't) when was the last time that both drivers left the current WDC and WCC team? I'm thinking Williams '92/'93 with Mansell going to Indy and Ricardo moving to Benetton. Any advances?

[UltimateDanGTR]

If Jenson does leave (and IMO he won't) when was the last time that both drivers left the current WDC and WCC team? I'm thinking Williams '92/'93 with Mansell going to Indy and Ricardo moving to Benetton. Any advances?

benetton 95/96. schumi to ferrari and herbert to sauber was last time for BOTH drivers leaving the champion team i believe, in fact, i am correct.

however, the wdc has left his wcc team immediatly after frequently before, alonso in 06/07, hill being fired ofcourse after 96, schumi 95/96, Prost as he retired in 93/94, Mansell 92/93, Stewart in 73 as he retired as WDC. plus there are probably more.

[F1boat]

I hope that Jenson will get the increase of his salary or leave to McLaren. In my opinion Brawn is insulting him with their attitude. Rumor is that he will earn less than Nico, a guy with no GP victories at all. This is outrageous. If Jenson leaves I will support Brawn no more :( Not that they will care, but ;)

[MJW]

Dont worry - teams and engineers make winners, the driver is the biological component (that costs the most).

[Sleeper]

I hope that Jenson will get the increase of his salary or leave to McLaren. In my opinion Brawn is insulting him with their attitude. Rumor is that he will earn less than Nico, a guy with no GP victories at all. This is outrageous. If Jenson leaves I will support Brawn no more :( Not that they will care, but ;)
I believe Mercedes ownes Rosbergs contract so Brawn has little say in his pay.

I cant see Button leaving to be honest, there's just no viable alternative for him, or Brawn for that matter.

[driveace]

Over a barrrel then .Take it or go!
Who else really wants him?

[Valve Bounce]

That's a bit harsh - Bunsen did win the championship. On the other hand, ioan swears the guy is a curbstone, so who knows? :confused:

[V12]

I admit given the chance to increase my salary I'd push it all the way, but I'm on £19k, not multimillions. And I don't get to drive racing cars for a living. Just make sure you land in a competitive car Jenson.

[CNR]

could we see one of the new teams mega bucks to get 1 on the car

Q:would button take money over wins ?

1 point worth over 1,000,000 to a team ?

button has given the team over 94,000,000

[Saint Devote]

I have a feeling Jense really could leave Brawn GP now. Before I didn't think it was possible but now it appears it may well be as Brawn will not pay the £8M or so Jense is after

I would say you could count the amount of drivers on one hand who would have taken such a big pay cut and pay all expenses after just signing such a big contract and I think Brawn are taking the mick a little, it's not like Jense is demanding the £30M plus the Kimi was on last season to do nothing

It's a double edge sword for me as Jense wouldnt have won that title without Brawn, but Jense has been so loyal to the team and I think as champion he's worth 8M at the very least

Part of me would love to see him go up against Lewis at Mclaren. What does everyone think will happen?

It will not be good for Button's career if he moves to Mclaren because the car is designed around Hamilton's style of oversteer and Jenson is an understeer driver.

Raikkonen is also oversteer and we all saw what problems he had to endure when the car was engineered around Massa's style.

Button should stay at Brawn because they know him and he them. They may perform well iin 2010 or they could have the reaction that has been seen so often in the past, and overreact to winning the championships.

If they are quibbling over a few million it is both ridiculous and distasteful. I wonder of Jenson has not been advised badly or is just not thinking too short term.

Jackie Stewart recently said that Jenson should think longer term because as champion he is going to earn quite a few million dollars in the next few years.

Brawn has also said that they will allow him to make his own advertising deals and display it on his racing suit.

But anyway, we have no idea really what is going on because noone is saying anything. And just where can Jenson go at this stage anyway - there are no competitive teams and I am sure he has had enough of driving uncompetitive cars.

[Saint Devote]

If Jenson does leave (and IMO he won't) when was the last time that both drivers left the current WDC and WCC team? I'm thinking Williams '92/'93 with Mansell going to Indy and Ricardo moving to Benetton. Any advances?

Jenson joins Manor or "Virgin f1" because Branson suddenly decides to PAY!!

Fittipaldii from Macca to Copersucar, Villeneuve from Williams to BAR [irony]and then, Button? :eek:

[V12]

Well the old Jense to McLaren chestnut is surfacing again he's apparently visited the factory according to this report - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8359972.stm.

I think it would be a mistake going to what let's face it is Hamilton's team. I know the Brawn/Honda early start scenario was probably a one-off that'll never happen again, but with rumours of Merc getting more involved in Brawn, and of course with Ross himself at the helm, they have a great base to build on and contend in the future. Plus putting my (sort of) neutral hat on for a second, I think Button/Rosberg at Brawn and Hamilton/Kimi at McLaren plus the already confirmed Ferrari and Red Bull line-ups would set up a potentially classic four-way battle for next year.

[Boudica]

"Ultimately, Jenson is a very loyal guy but at some point it stops being about the money. Let's face it, everyone likes to feel wanted."

Some interesting words form Goddard, perhaps Brawn actually wants Heidfeld or Raikkonen in the team for next year. There where some rumours around that Mercedes will be willing to pay Raikkonen's salary should he drive for Brawn.

With Mercedes's relationship between Brawn and Mclaren it might be complicating negotiations between all parties. But all of this posturing might even be an attempt to play the drivers off against each other, in order for them to lower their salary demands.

It doesn't really make sense why Brawn doesn't want to pay the increase to Button, that he agreed to originally.

[woody2goody]

Brawn may be shooting themselves in the foot. They should have made sure either way if Jenson was staying before allowing Barrichello to leave.

I don't see why Jenson shouldn't get his pay rise, which is reportedly still less than what he was earning in 2008 with Honda.

As for Button or Raikkonen at McLaren, that'll be very interesting. I remember saying that I wanted an all British team at the end of last year, so I'm not completely against it now. However I do worry for Button against Hamilton. In fact I worry for anybody against Hamilton.

HOWEVER: If Button does drive alongside Lewis, he will have a chance of beating him, because Hamilton is more prone to mistakes and overcooking it than Jenson. It'll be a good scrap if it happens.

Maybe if Kimi goes, it will light a fire under the Finn and make him perform like he did in 2005 again.

[Saint Devote]

Brawn may be shooting themselves in the foot. They should have made sure either way if Jenson was staying before allowing Barrichello to leave.

I don't see why Jenson shouldn't get his pay rise, which is reportedly still less than what he was earning in 2008 with Honda.

As for Button or Raikkonen at McLaren, that'll be very interesting. I remember saying that I wanted an all British team at the end of last year, so I'm not completely against it now. However I do worry for Button against Hamilton. In fact I worry for anybody against Hamilton.

HOWEVER: If Button does drive alongside Lewis, he will have a chance of beating him, because Hamilton is more prone to mistakes and overcooking it than Jenson. It'll be a good scrap if it happens.

Maybe if Kimi goes, it will light a fire under the Finn and make him perform like he did in 2005 again.

Its not that simple.

The control tyres introduced several seeasons ago changed the entire sitiuation in f1 to anything from 2006 backwards.

It was the reason for the collapse of Renault form - they played cacth-up all the way.

And if Button moves to Mclaren it will be an immense mistake because the car is designed always towards oversteer because that is the way Hamilton drives and so does Raikkonen.

Now, if Button is so enamoured if Mclaren is an option then so be it - but he will NOT beat Hamilton and will come away in 2010 SUPPORTING the views of his detractors.

Question: does Jenson want his way or is he interested in a winning car with a team that will cater to his requirements?

These questions will be answered in the next six weeks or so and will indicate if becoming world champion has been overwhelming or solidified the Man that won the 2009 title.

[Lemmy-Boy]

Before his 2009 WDC, Button was one of the most overpaid drivers in F1 for many years and had nothing to show for it (apart from a handful of podium finishes and a fluke, rain-soaked victory in Hungary). His entry into F1 came with a flurry of hype from the British Press, only to see his status as British Favorite pass over to Lewis Hamilton. With an ironic twist of fate, the 2009 F1 season was the first time Button's salary kind of matched his talent.

If Button is quicker than Hamilton in the same car, then he must be the best driver in F1. And we need to remember, Lewis closely matched and often beat Alonso in his rookie year. And most F1 pundits declare Alonso as the best in F1. Whereas Button has been out qualified, out raced or out-pointed by teammates in the past (Fisichella, Trulli and Barrichello).

If it wasn't for unfavorable strategies throughout the 2009 season, Barrichello could have taken the points lead and Button may have lost the title. I'm not going to debate whether or not Button deserved this year's title but overall he's probably the 6th to 10th best driver in the sport.

[F1boat]

Well the old Jense to McLaren chestnut is surfacing again he's apparently visited the factory according to this report - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8359972.stm.


Yes, but check what Goddard is saying.
"we're not being difficult or unreasonably expensive in our demands for Jenson. In fact we've given up quite a lot of negotiating ground in our discussions with them."

It seems that Jenson gave up a lot like Ross is cemented on his position. IMO there should be some sort of compromise and one team should treat his world driver's champion with respect and to be careful about their image.
If not, Jenson might become a solid driver in McLaren and to hope that consistency will help him against Lewis Hamilton. Also, next year a 2nd driver in McLaren might have a better chance for the wins than the leader in Brawn GP.

[Dzeidzei]

Dont worry - teams and engineers make winners, the driver is the biological component (that costs the most).

Id still argue that most cars cost more than the driver. I bet the 2009 Ferrari did cost more than Kimi and thats a lot of money :)

[Sonic]

benetton 95/96. schumi to ferrari and herbert to sauber was last time for BOTH drivers leaving the champion team i believe, in fact, i am correct.

however, the wdc has left his wcc team immediatly after frequently before, alonso in 06/07, hill being fired ofcourse after 96, schumi 95/96, Prost as he retired in 93/94, Mansell 92/93, Stewart in 73 as he retired as WDC. plus there are probably more.

Doh! That was obvious!

Anyway back to Jenson; I guess it comes down to how his self belief vs reality check device is working. As new WDC he might feel unbeatable and might take the McLaren seat, but as I have said before it would be a mistake IMO as he'd get kicked to the weeds by Mr Hamilton. As I've also said before I feel any McLaren courting of Jenson is more a bargining tool to get Kimi rather than a full fledged bid for Jens.

Time will tell.

[Malbec]

Doh! That was obvious!

Anyway back to Jenson; I guess it comes down to how his self belief vs reality check device is working. As new WDC he might feel unbeatable and might take the McLaren seat, but as I have said before it would be a mistake IMO as he'd get kicked to the weeds by Mr Hamilton. As I've also said before I feel any McLaren courting of Jenson is more a bargining tool to get Kimi rather than a full fledged bid for Jens.

Time will tell.

Jenson visiting McLaren works well for both parties even if neither is serious about signing the other. Jenson can let Brawn know that he has other very good options on the table to strengthen his bargaining position, and ditto with McLaren talking to Kimi.

I don't think McLaren would be a good place for Jenson though, he's been at BAR/Honda/Brawn for Lord knows how many seasons and is in familiar territory there. At McLaren he'll be up against Hamilton where Anthony Hamilton will do anything possible to ensure his son gets the best possible treatment. McLaren I think are interested in hitting Anthony hard after his contribution to Ron Dennis' ousting as team boss, they will be looking for someone who won't be susceptible to the kind of pressure Alonso succumbed to, Kimi fits that bill perfectly though Jenson won't be a bad second choice. Best for Jenson not to get involved in the politics at McLaren by not going there in the first place.

[woody2goody]

Yes, but check what Goddard is saying.
"we're not being difficult or unreasonably expensive in our demands for Jenson. In fact we've given up quite a lot of negotiating ground in our discussions with them."

It seems that Jenson gave up a lot like Ross is cemented on his position. IMO there should be some sort of compromise and one team should treat his world driver's champion with respect and to be careful about their image.
If not, Jenson might become a solid driver in McLaren and to hope that consistency will help him against Lewis Hamilton. Also, next year a 2nd driver in McLaren might have a better chance for the wins than the leader in Brawn GP.

I agree with this. You cannot have one of your drivers winning the World Championship, and not expect him to want a significant pay rise for the following year.

Maybe Jenson should just take what Brawn are offering. Brawn aren't being very smart though - the combination of Button and Barrichello's experience was one of the key factors in their two titles, and I can't see a pairing of maybe Rosberg/Davidson/Raikkonen/Heidfeld being as good, despite their respective skills.

Button needs to stay with Brawn where he is loved, respected and catered for. At McLaren he would struggle, because if even a driver as good as Alonso didn't get equal treatment, then I doubt Button would get it.

[F1boat]

I agree with this. You cannot have one of your drivers winning the World Championship, and not expect him to want a significant pay rise for the following year.

Maybe Jenson should just take what Brawn are offering.

I dunno. Maybe. But it is more respectable to prove that you have balls and to dare to face the strongest possible teammate, but to safe your dignity and to be embarassed by a stingy team boss.

[Valve Bounce]

I think Bunsen is the one to know what made has WDC possible: the early scintillating form of the Brawn, or the early scintillating form of Bunsen. Don't forget, up until this year, Bunsen has only had one win, and that was at Hungaroring.

The situation is much different with Lewis Hamilton, who had numerous podiums and wins in his rookie year. He will know, more than anyone else, how he will match up with Lewis Hamilton on a level field, not even considering any preferential treatment Hamilton might receive.

He has to figure out whether going to McLaren will be a chance to win more races, get a big pay rise, or both.

[Saint Devote]

Before his 2009 WDC, Button was one of the most overpaid drivers in F1 for many years and had nothing to show for it (apart from a handful of podium finishes and a fluke, rain-soaked victory in Hungary). His entry into F1 came with a flurry of hype from the British Press, only to see his status as British Favorite pass over to Lewis Hamilton. With an ironic twist of fate, the 2009 F1 season was the first time Button's salary kind of matched his talent.

If Button is quicker than Hamilton in the same car, then he must be the best driver in F1. And we need to remember, Lewis closely matched and often beat Alonso in his rookie year. And most F1 pundits declare Alonso as the best in F1. Whereas Button has been out qualified, out raced or out-pointed by teammates in the past (Fisichella, Trulli and Barrichello).

If it wasn't for unfavorable strategies throughout the 2009 season, Barrichello could have taken the points lead and Button may have lost the title. I'm not going to debate whether or not Button deserved this year's title but overall he's probably the 6th to 10th best driver in the sport.

Your reasoning is simplistic and does not at all reflect the realities and complexities that constitutes formula 1.

Furthermore, trying to undermine Button's achievement not only flies in the face of the view of the teams and his fellow drivers in f1, but it is also evident that Jenson's win has disappointed you and I derive immense satisfaction from that :D

[Saint Devote]

I think Bunsen is the one to know what made has WDC possible: the early scintillating form of the Brawn, or the early scintillating form of Bunsen. Don't forget, up until this year, Bunsen has only had one win, and that was at Hungaroring.

The situation is much different with Lewis Hamilton, who had numerous podiums and wins in his rookie year. He will know, more than anyone else, how he will match up with Lewis Hamilton on a level field, not even considering any preferential treatment Hamilton might receive.

He has to figure out whether going to McLaren will be a chance to win more races, get a big pay rise, or both.

And up until THIS YEAR Mark Webber had NOTHING to show - that did not make him a useless driver.

It does not matter how longh a driver takes to reach the top - the importance is that he does.

It is also not the first time a driver making his debut had performed as Hamilton did.

Two drivers, especially these days, because they are in the same team, does not make it an "equal playing field" and in fact the history of f1 is filled "second drivers", quicker than their teammate being hobbled by their team principal. I suggest you study racing history as well as why drivers, both excellent and capable of winning in the same team may not match up.

Motor racing is a very complex sport and the introduction of the control tyres alone has made it even more complicated.

Hamilton has never had to drive in any of the teams that Jenson has. He has always been with Mclaren. Button for the first time raced a car that as he said to his father after the first six laps in Catalunya in what seems so long ago: "dad, I think for the first time, we are going to enjoy this one!"

And they did - Jense won races and became champion - and if you underrate his race performances at Interlagos and Yas Marina then you ought to analyze whether f1 is a sport for you.

[Valve Bounce]

God!! I had this guy on my ignore list, and I only removed it so I could read his stupid posts and have a laugh. I think I'll restore the ignore function again.

[Saint Devote]

God!! I had this guy on my ignore list, and I only removed it so I could read his stupid posts and have a laugh. I think I'll restore the ignore function again.

You censor yourself??! :eek: How peculiar!

Point is that you are not able to refute me. How disappointing! Thought Aussies were made of sterner stuff.

[ShiftingGears]

And up until THIS YEAR Mark Webber had NOTHING to show - that did not make him a useless driver.

It does not matter how longh a driver takes to reach the top - the importance is that he does.

It is also not the first time a driver making his debut had performed as Hamilton did.

Two drivers, especially these days, because they are in the same team, does not make it an "equal playing field" and in fact the history of f1 is filled "second drivers", quicker than their teammate being hobbled by their team principal. I suggest you study racing history as well as why drivers, both excellent and capable of winning in the same team may not match up.

Motor racing is a very complex sport and the introduction of the control tyres alone has made it even more complicated.

Hamilton has never had to drive in any of the teams that Jenson has. He has always been with Mclaren. Button for the first time raced a car that as he said to his father after the first six laps in Catalunya in what seems so long ago: "dad, I think for the first time, we are going to enjoy this one!"

And they did - Jense won races and became champion - and if you underrate his race performances at Interlagos and Yas Marina then you ought to analyze whether f1 is a sport for you.

The key difference between Hamilton and Button is that Hamilton can still be very competitive when the car is less than ideal. If Hamilton and Button were teammates in any team besides from McLaren, I would still think Hamilton would beat Button.

[Valve Bounce]

The key difference between Hamilton and Button is that Hamilton can still be very competitive when the car is less than ideal. If Hamilton and Button were teammates in any team besides from McLaren, I would still think Hamilton would beat Button.

This could be the case - and as I mentioned in my post above, Bunsen is in the best position to judge this for himself. Personally, I would love to see Bunsen matched against Lewis Hamilton to see which is the better driver and by how much. My one reservation here is that my gut feeling is Hamilton would be the favored driver in the team.

As for Kimi at Brawn, if Ross is unwilling to give Bunsen a big pay rise from his excellent year's achievement, I can't see Ross wanting to stump up Kimi's huge salary.

[Saint Devote]

The key difference between Hamilton and Button is that Hamilton can still be very competitive when the car is less than ideal. If Hamilton and Button were teammates in any team besides from McLaren, I would still think Hamilton would beat Button.

In less than ideal circumstances he could such as was shown by Barrichello. But in ideal conditions either could prevail. The irony is that Jenson is a far smoother driver - the CEO of Brisdgestone this season has said frequently that Button is amazing on his tires.

Their styles are also different - for a top driver favoring understeer as Jenson does rather than oversteer, it is unusual.

Jenson is less mistake prone compared to Hamilton - again, Monte Carlo and Monza this year. Jenson knows when to bring it home and drive hard but also gauge the cars capacity. In the same situation Jenson would most likely have NOT crashed during q1 at Monte Carlo and would definitely have brought the car home at Monza.

[Saint Devote]

This could be the case - and as I mentioned in my post above, Bunsen is in the best position to judge this for himself. Personally, I would love to see Bunsen matched against Lewis Hamilton to see which is the better driver and by how much. My one reservation here is that my gut feeling is Hamilton would be the favored driver in the team.

As for Kimi at Brawn, if Ross is unwilling to give Bunsen a big pay rise from his excellent year's achievement, I can't see Ross wanting to stump up Kimi's huge salary.

What are you talking about? They ARE matched against each other - they both race in the same grand prix dont they?

It does not require drivers to be in the same team and that is usually not the ideal place anyway.

[ShiftingGears]

In less than ideal circumstances he could such as was shown by Barrichello. But in ideal conditions either could prevail. The irony is that Jenson is a far smoother driver - the CEO of Brisdgestone this season has said frequently that Button is amazing on his tires.

And Hamilton has proven himself against Alonso, in his debut year, who is much better than Barrichello.

Smooth does not necessarily mean fast, if they are unable to be aggressive enough with the car. Button was weaving on the straights trying to get heat into his tyres because he was incapable of being aggressive enough through the corners, which I have not seen an F1 driver do since Deletraz.


Their styles are also different - for a top driver favoring understeer as Jenson does rather than oversteer, it is unusual.

Not really. Massa prefers an understeering car, and so does Alonso.


Jenson is less mistake prone compared to Hamilton - again, Monte Carlo and Monza this year. Jenson knows when to bring it home and drive hard but also gauge the cars capacity. In the same situation Jenson would most likely have NOT crashed during q1 at Monte Carlo and would definitely have brought the car home at Monza.

He will make less mistakes, if he learns from them. It is only his third season in F1, and he has proven that he is very fast. Also, he did not have a championship to fight for, which no doubt affects how many risks a driver takes.

[Valve Bounce]

He will make less mistakes, if he learns from them. It is only his third season in F1, and he has proven that he is very fast. Also, he did not have a championship to fight for, which no doubt affects how many risks a driver takes.

That's an interesting point you make. I remember Bunsen running off into a wall when he was being chased by SchM. Can't remember the race, but it was funny. :D

[F1boat]

However, guys, the point maybe is that even as a 2nd driver in McLaren Mercedes Jenson might have a better chance for wins as a leader in Brawn GP - IF Ross has trouble with money. If not, Ross is simply insulting Jenson and it will be for the better to go to McLaren.

[Malbec]

I did laugh abit at the second part though sorry. A guy who owns 15% of an extremely successfull F1 team and has been in charge for 29 years and counting is partially forced out by a bloke and his successfull son. No chance, this is forum talk I'm afraid. There might have been elements of strain at certain points, but the Hamiltons are under no illusions who is bigger.. :)

I don't think its a secret that there have been tensions between the team and Anthony Hamilton. I wouldn't attribute Dennis' stepping down entirely to the Hamiltons though, they only played a minor part. The major factor was to stop the FIA from further attacking McLaren as a result of the personal feud between Mosley and Dennis by removing Dennis. In fact this feud and the fact that McLaren and Lewis could be penalised further in the future because of it was one of the reasons Anthony Hamilton wanted Dennis out.

Anthony Hamilton's powers are limited but that doesn't stop McLaren from wanting to clip his wings by getting in a strong second driver that could challenge Lewis directly like Kimi.

[Saint Devote]

And Hamilton has proven himself against Alonso, in his debut year, who is much better than Barrichello.

Smooth does not necessarily mean fast, if they are unable to be aggressive enough with the car. Button was weaving on the straights trying to get heat into his tyres because he was incapable of being aggressive enough through the corners, which I have not seen an F1 driver do since Deletraz.

Not really. Massa prefers an understeering car, and so does Alonso.

He will make less mistakes, if he learns from them. It is only his third season in F1, and he has proven that he is very fast. Also, he did not have a championship to fight for, which no doubt affects how many risks a driver takes.

Well - we disagree over Alonso's style - Massa is not important to me because the Spaniard is going to eat his lunch.

Smooth is extremely important in driving a racing car and especially with no refuelling stops in 2010 it is going to be a very important factor which will do well for Jenson. Comparing Jenson to Delatraz is amusing.

Risk is defined as degree of deviation from the expected return - so the degree to which a driver acts that way is based upon the probability of how much he can gain.

In Jenson's case he assessed the situation correctly during his championship winning season because his goal was to win the title. He acted conservatively [and this was agreeable to Ross Brawn] because as long as he maintained at least the points gap - which was the largest difference since the introduction of control tires, so an excellent accomplishment - he would win. Time was on his side and he began to demonstrate this through his driving beginning at Interlagos where his racing was complemented both times by a magazine that has been less than forgiving towards him - Autosport.

The object at the start opf a season is to win the championship and the driver doing so has beaten everyone. Its simple as that.

As Niki Lauda said recently, nobody remembers how you did it - just that you did.

[woody2goody]

I think that was Montreal I could be wrong :)

In my view Hamilton is an aggresive driver where Button is a cautious one. LH seems to take more risks for example Monza, and I know he got some criticism for that last lap crash, but I also saw alot of rival fans/drivers commend him for his determination. Brazil 2007 LH lost a place to FA, but took a risk to get it back although it didn't pay off. You can put it down to inexperience or the sheer drive to suceed. Button to me showed his first glimpses of taking risks at Brazil and he earned alot of respect for that, but IMO LH has that edge.

If JB goes to Mclaren and is out performed regularly, then I expect the forums to light up with favouritism jibes, but IMO JB isn't going to make the same mistake as Heikki and let everyone around him call all the shots. It would be very interesting. :)

Indeed. The thing is, there would be hell to pay if there did turn out to be favouritism, because let's be honest, Hamilton and Button both have one title each, so there shouldn't be bias either way.

Although that's what we thought about Alonso...

I agree that Button is experienced enough not to stand for any of it, and I'm sure he would make sure there is a clause in his contract preventing anything but equal treatment.

After all, I don't think Lewis would really want his team-mate handicapped in any way; he would want to beat him fair and square.

One thing's for sure, I'd love to see Button and Hamilton battling it out for victories next year, be it in the same team or different ones :)

[ShiftingGears]

Well - we disagree over Alonso's style - Massa is not important to me because the Spaniard is going to eat his lunch.

Fantastic reasoning there.


Smooth is extremely important in driving a racing car and especially with no refuelling stops in 2010 it is going to be a very important factor which will do well for Jenson. Comparing Jenson to Delatraz is amusing.

Drivers manage to adapt to cars whatever the constraints are. ITV were saying how Jenson would benefit without traction control in 2008 when it made more or less no difference to drivers pace whatsoever.

[Valve Bounce]

Indeed. The thing is, there would be hell to pay if there did turn out to be favouritism, because let's be honest, Hamilton and Button both have one title each, so there shouldn't be bias either way.

Although that's what we thought about Alonso...

I agree that Button is experienced enough not to stand for any of it, and I'm sure he would make sure there is a clause in his contract preventing anything but equal treatment.

After all, I don't think Lewis would really want his team-mate handicapped in any way; he would want to beat him fair and square.

One thing's for sure, I'd love to see Button and Hamilton battling it out for victories next year, be it in the same team or different ones :)

Well, Alonso already had two championships and Hamilton was a rookie, but that didn't stop Ron Dennis from favouring Hamilton to the extent that he blurted out that they were racing Alonso.

And I would not put it past the Hamilton Putsch to try to get every advantage equipment wise over the team mate. I can't see Hamilton wanting to beat any team mate fair and square if he can avoid it; quoting Max Biaggi:"This is not the classical music".

But I do agree with your last paragraph.

[woody2goody]

Well, Alonso already had two championships and Hamilton was a rookie, but that didn't stop Ron Dennis from favouring Hamilton to the extent that he blurted out that they were racing Alonso.

And I would not put it past the Hamilton Putsch to try to get every advantage equipment wise over the team mate. I can't see Hamilton wanting to beat any team mate fair and square if he can avoid it; quoting Max Biaggi:"This is not the classical music".

But I do agree with your last paragraph.

I agree mate, it wouldn't surprise me if Hamilton's 'people' tried to get him some kind of unfair advantage, not Lewis himself, but that remains to be seen I suppose.

I just hope, for his team-mate's sake, that it doesn't happen. I don't like Kimi very much but I'd want him to be equal with Lewis too.

[DexDexter]

I think the major factor in this story was the huge betrayal Dennis felt from within his team. After a long career of being ultimately ruthless, but by the book I think this saga took its toll and affected Dennis' marriage and other issues away from the track. I think he stepped away on a high and it was the right time. Max might have a little smile on his face believing he caused this move but I'm pretty sure theres a strong element of satisfaction from the other party too.. :)

Talking about Ron, I have a feeling that he will step back in, wouldn't be surprised to see him on the pitwall at the first race. I also think Dennis would prefer Kimi over Button, he did take him instead of Mercedes fav. Heidfeld back in 2001.

[Valve Bounce]

............... not Lewis himself, ...............



Why?? when did the Pope canonise him? :p :

[CNR]

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18960&Itemid=219

A major new Formula One collaboration between Brawn and Mercedes-Benz is expected to be announced officially this week. It has been rumoured and reported

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18956&Itemid=219

Norbert Haug has confirmed that talks with Nick Heidfeld about a Formula One seat for 2010 are taking place

Jenson Button likely to join Lewis Hamilton at McLaren
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/jenson-button/6576566/Jenson-Button-likely-to-join-Lewis-Hamilton-at-McLaren.html


Jenson Button appears increasingly likely to move to McLaren and form an all-British 'dream-team' partnership with his predecessor as world champion, Lewis Hamilton.

[Valve Bounce]

It was Kimi who trumped Nick Heidfeld, and Nick has always "seemingly" been left driving an inferior car to Kimi. Nick going to either Brawn or McLaren will be extremely interesting. On paper, Nick should be in a good position to win a couple of races at least. And Bunsen going to McLaren will clearly define his racing ability and quash all rumours once and for all.

[V12]

Well, the Brawn-Merc bit seems to be official - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8362295.stm

It's looking more and more like Rosberg/Heidfeld at (Brawn-)Mercedes and Button/Hamilton at McLaren, although I get the feeling Kimi still might turn up in a McLaren leaving Button.......where ?

I find the all-German hangup that Merc have to be a bit baffling though, it's never bothered them before when they've had Hakkinen, DC, Kimi, Hamilton and Alonso winning races in their works-powered cars, Ferrari aren't that fussed about running Italians, and at the other end of the grid but with the same principle, the new Malaysian-backed and themed Lotus have said it isn't a priority and nor is it for the blatantly-named Force India.

Can I be the first one to be naughty and refer to Rosberg as a Finn? *ducks*


EDIT: Interesting, I just found this link: http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/brawn-gp-wird-mercedes-werksteam-mercedes-gp-mit-rosberg-und-button-1476530.html

I don't speak German but the message is fairly clear. I'm not familiar with the respective reputability of the various German news outlets though, so with how big a pinch of salt should I take this, does anybody know? Am I looking at the German equivalent of Autosport, or a motoring red-top?

[ShiftingGears]

Well, the Brawn-Merc bit seems to be official - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8362295.stm

It's looking more and more like Rosberg/Heidfeld at (Brawn-)Mercedes and Button/Hamilton at McLaren, although I get the feeling Kimi still might turn up in a McLaren leaving Button.......where ?

I find the all-German hangup that Merc have to be a bit baffling though, it's never bothered them before when they've had Hakkinen, DC, Kimi, Hamilton and Alonso winning races in their works-powered cars, Ferrari aren't that fussed about running Italians, and at the other end of the grid but with the same principle, the new Malaysian-backed and themed Lotus have said it isn't a priority and nor is it for the blatantly-named Force India.

Can I be the first one to be naughty and refer to Rosberg as a Finn? *ducks*

If it is a Heidfeld - Rosberg pairing, It wouldn't be because of nationality. They are both solid drivers not known for politicking, and they're not going to milk BrawnGP for as much money as Button or Raikkonen would.

[ArrowsFA1]

Mercedes has confirmed that Brawn will be its works team next year. Cars will be Silver Arrows. McLaren will get Merc engines to 2015

http://twitter.com/Jamesallenonf1

[I am evil Homer]

Maybe Jenson just wants to have McLaren on his CV? Last chance for that type of move probably, so why not sign a 2 year deal and see what happens.

[V12]

Does this mean McLaren will ditch the Merc silver and let their sponsors i.e. Vodafone dictate the entire colour scheme? (So you're looking at red and white basically). Or will we have two Silver Arrows with two more Silver-with-a-bit-of-red Arrows?

[F1boat]

I hope that till the end of the week we will know who will drive where.

[I am evil Homer]

It just struck me that we'll have 4 silver cars on the grid next year. I wonder if Mclaren will consider a new livery. Perhaps their original orange? That would be pretty cool I reckon... :)

Snap V12

I thought that but then Vodafones big rival is Orange ;) Orange car with red sidepods and wings might work though.

Seems like everyone's a winner...McLaren keep Merc engines for 5 seasons, Merc gets to dictate its own F1 team and potential Nick Heidfeld gets the seat.

Kimi can go count his money.

[V12]

I admit though I'm not just disappointed because I was a big fan of the Brawn/Button combo. Assuming Button goes to McLaren, then Kimi is the net loser (considering he was linked to McLaren much more heavily before all this), with Heidfeld the net gainer and I know who I'd rather see as a neutral in a top seat.

[DexDexter]

You are correct and I rate both of them. On the other hand they do not have the same bargaining tools to demand the higher wages like Button and Raikkonen. Neither are world champions. :)

The Sun newspaper are quoted as saying that Brawn offered Button £7M, and the talks still stalled. I can't imagine Mclaren would offer him much more than that to be honest either.

If Mercedes are serious (which they are) they'll take the best drivers on the market that they can get. They already have a driver with a German passport , taking Heidfeld would IMO be stupid if there are WDCs on the market.

[JBAFCB]

As an avid fan of Jenson I'm both excited by potential move to McLaren and also frustrated with whats happened at Brawn. The Brawn story is a fairtytale and I have so much brawn merchandise!!!

But all British driver line up with last 2 world champs could be a dream line up for McLaren. But my worry for Jenson is McLaren is built around Lewis and as much as it pains me to say it I think he will struggle against him

A lot of people seem to rate Heidfeld, I personally dont and I think it's a shame that someone like Raikonen could be out the sport when Nick has a drive. I would have thought Brawn would have wanted the number 1 on their car but obviously Mercedes are more interested in an all German line up. Good move for Rosberg tho I really rate him

As for Jense he could potenitally be in best car next season so let's watch this space....

[I am evil Homer]

Or maybe their previous experience of Kimi at McLaren means they'd prefer Nick?

[Bezza]

This is all very intriguing. I was thinking that Brawn would struggle to have another good season, but now rebranding as Mercedes and having their 100% backing means they should be stay at, or close to, the top, creating a new superpower in F1 alongside Ferrari and McLaren (for now - time will tell how they will cope, will the elite of F1 be changed forever?)

Above all else this is extremely positive news when Toyota and BMW are quitting F1, and Renault are thinking about it, Mercedes go and announce they are controlling their own team.

We should have a colourful grid next season. No boring BMW or Toyota liveries, newbies who can enter their own new colours, a Virgin-red liveried car, a non-Merc McLaren (could be anything), and two proper Silver Arrows.

Raikkonen must be having a year off. However, where is going to go in 2011 then? Back to Ferrari to replace Massa? Over to Renault to replace Kubica who is only on a one-year contract? Or to the full Mercedes team once it has a year under its belt?

Exciting times ahead.

[F1boat]

As an avid fan of Jenson I'm both excited by potential move to McLaren and also frustrated with whats happened at Brawn. The Brawn story is a fairtytale and I have so much brawn merchandise!!!

But all British driver line up with last 2 world champs could be a dream line up for McLaren. But my worry for Jenson is McLaren is built around Lewis and as much as it pains me to say it I think he will struggle against him

A lot of people seem to rate Heidfeld, I personally dont and I think it's a shame that someone like Raikonen could be out the sport when Nick has a drive. I would have thought Brawn would have wanted the number 1 on their car but obviously Mercedes are more interested in an all German line up. Good move for Rosberg tho I really rate him

As for Jense he could potenitally be in best car next season so let's watch this space....

I am afraid for both Jenson and Kimi. Imagine of Merc hires Nick and McLaren Kimi. Then where Jenson would go?

[christophulus]

Wow, didn't expect this to come about quite so soon. I can't help thinking McLaren got the better deal though - independence and upto six years of the best engines on the grid (until they make their own perhaps.. are they buying the BMW engine dept or not?)

Mercedes think their cars will be silver so I imagine McLaren are going to change http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/16/mercedes-grand-prix-take-over-brawn-for-2010-but-what-about-button/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+f1fanatic+%28F1+Fanatic+-+The+Formula+1+Blog%29

[K-Pu]

And Kimi going to Brawn/Merc? If Mercedes is willing to put a good amount of money, why hiring Heidfeld instead of Kimi? A Raikkonen - Rosberg pair is better than Heidfeld - Rosberg...

Button would go to McLaren, Kimi to Mercedes and Heidfeld who knows.

[Sonic]

OMG OMG OMG!

My first reaction is sadness at the loss of the Brawn name after less than a year, I doubt we'll see Ross Brawn in tears again as he is little more than an employee now.

McLaren are certainly not going to suffer a Williams style fall from grace as they still have the best engine on the grid for at least 5 years, but who knows perhaps they'll hook up with a new partner before then.

[V12]

Yeah, definitely sad to lose the Brawn name, they could have become a real iconic name years, decades down the line in the same way that McLaren and Williams are these days.

But Mercedes GP it is, and regardless of my own personal feelings about losing the Brawn name and Jenson being mucked about, I have to be chuffed for all the workers at the team who have been through 12 months of so much uncertainty (even after Brawn rose from the ashes) about their future.

On McLaren and their engines, it would be good if they were to ramp up to building their own engines as rumoured. If they were tie it in to their Merc-independent road cars, they could join Ferrari in being a fully fledged manufacturer that grew out of a racing team, rather than the other way round. But I'm sure McLaren will do whatever is best for them competitively.

[jens]

Ross Brawn is a rather pragmatic person and he knows he has better cards than Button in contract negotiations. Button doesn't have a good alternative to Brawn - no-one else would pay him the sum he wants, maybe with the possible exception of McLaren, but then again they don't want to pay much to Kimi either, so there you go. And in McLaren Jenson would be left in the shadow of Hamilton. After the departure of Toyota Button can't use the Japanese team as a negotiating tool for higher salary any more either. So Button has only got to lose with departing from Brawn and Ross knows it, that's why the latter is very firm in his offer.

Looking from the other angle: What can Brawn lose with the departure of Button? Not too much, I think, that's why he can take a gamble. Surely they won't plan to pay much to Räikkönen and hence I don't think he is an option, but Heidfeld is available on the market for peanuts, who IMO is not an inferior driver to Button. Mr Brawn may think in the same way, but we will see.

However, it would be kinda surprising to see top teams racing with drivers from the same nationality again in F1 - two Germans in MB and two Brits in McLaren. It really isn't a preferred option due to marketing reasons and we haven't seen that for a long time already - in a top team we lastly saw such case in Williams in '95 (Hill-Coulthard), in midfield 2003 (Sauber: Frentzen-Heidfeld) and in a backmarker team in 2006 (Super Aguri: Sato-Yamamoto). If I remember correctly. :p :

[DexDexter]

The genius part of all this for Mclaren seems to be the fact that Mercedes are supplying engines and sponsorship for free. The deal is also designed so that Mclaren buy back the 40% share over the next 2 seasons.. :)

Good for Mclaren. I do, however, fear that in a year or two, the Mercedes board will "start a new strategy" (like BMW :rolleyes :) which means pulling out of F1 and doing a Honda to the Brawn team. Obviously this the same old problem with manufacturer teams.

[Malbec]

OMG OMG OMG!

My first reaction is sadness at the loss of the Brawn name after less than a year, I doubt we'll see Ross Brawn in tears again as he is little more than an employee now.

I have to admit that my sympathy for Brawn is tempered by the fact that he's just sold a 70 % stake in his team to Merc for quite a big chunk of money, a stake that he paid literally pennies for (together with Fry et al). Brawn and Fry et al today have probably just seen their bank accounts swell by several years worth of Button's salary.

That said, Button and Kimi have to face the new reality where they aren't going to get paid huge amounts for driving any more. Merc is buying into Brawn because its a relative bargain, its on the hunt for cheap deals, not using megabucks to grab the best drivers. As todays press conference showed, Kimi and Button can demand what they like, if they push too hard drivers like Heidfeld can always take their place.

IMO though Kimi will still end up at Macca and Button will stay at Brawn/Merc.

[philipbain]

This might be the biggest risk he's taken in his career to date IMO... :)

If you are referring to the risk of Button being comprehensively trounced by his team mate then yes, I can see that is a great risk, lets face it, Rubens Barrichello is massively experienced and a decent driver but he is not in the same league as the Hamilton's of this world, yet at times it seemed that Button couldn't match his pace this season. If Button were to go to McLaren the risk would be that Hamilton could make him look rather ordinary, and to my mind Lewis is getting better all the time whilst Button is now at his apex. But all said, I would love to see either a Hamilton / Button or Hamilton / Raikonnen pairing at McLaren, and as these seem the most likely combos i'm already looking forward to F1 in 2010.

[jens]

Button should just swallow his pride and accept the offer. F1 is a tough business with no room to sentimentality (Oh, a WDC "should" be valued more than that). Same applies to Räikkönen if he wants to stay in F1. His manager seems to think that after that fantastic Ferrari contract he can get a similar deal from anyone. Well, not quite any more.

Pull-out of teams has left a lot of quality drivers battling over fewer amount of quality seats. Pretty much every team is trying to cut costs. So if there is no-one, who is ready to "outpay" other teams, it makes the negotiating position of teams quite strong in current situation. Now it's just the matter, when will the drivers/their managers understand it and blink first.

[Koz]

How much of a say does Merc have in this?

I mean, they could easily afford to pay Button more couldn't they?

Seriously, they would go at least 10m if they wanted to keep him. And to me it looks like they have the same opinion of Button as ioan. It certainly has to make you think.

Would Merc offer a better deal for the likes of Kimi?
I just can't see Brawn financially struggling to pay Button or anyone else for that matter. Maybe they just don't want him that's why they are giving him such a low offer?

[Valve Bounce]

If it is a Heidfeld - Rosberg pairing, It wouldn't be because of nationality. They are both solid drivers not known for politicking, and they're not going to milk BrawnGP for as much money as Button or Raikkonen would.

There are unsubstantiated rumours that both Heidfeld and Rosberg were hired to bolster the Kiwi bowling attack. :p :

[Valve Bounce]

I am surprised that Mallya hasn't bothered to make a move on Bunsen. He has an unlimited source of cash, and the ability to have the #1 on his cars must be worth gazillions. And he does have more than a half decent car because Fisi was able to win a race with the Force India. Can you just imagine the effect it would have in India with his cars sporting #1 and #2 - massive impact on his companies.

[Koz]

I am surprised that Mallya hasn't bothered to make a move on Bunsen. He has an unlimited source of cash, and the ability to have the #1 on his cars must be worth gazillions. And he does have more than a half decent car because Fisi was able to win a race with the Force India. Can you just imagine the effect it would have in India with his cars sporting #1 and #2 - massive impact on his companies.

But he didn't. And that's what counts.

But yes, it would be great if FI was no.1. It would be absolutely awesome. But even then I doubt Button would win another race for them.

[Valve Bounce]

But he didn't. And that's what counts.

But yes, it would be great if FI was no.1. It would be absolutely awesome. But even then I doubt Button would win another race for them.

Well, I think that he could help Force India to be a real force. Just think: if Bunsen could win just 3 races with the Force India, he would be hailed as a National Hero on the subcontinent as well as recognised as one of the greatest drivers of all time.


OK! I exaggerate a little. :p :

[woody2goody]

It just struck me that we'll have 4 silver cars on the grid next year. I wonder if Mclaren will consider a new livery. Perhaps their original orange? That would be pretty cool I reckon... :)

It'll be very difficult to predict what colours they will have, because apart from the orange (if they bring that back they'll just look like Arrows circa 2000), they have largely had liveries dictated by sponsors.

I know it's a bit off topic, but I'm guessing Campos will have white, Lotus either Black or Racing Green, Manor black and Red, USF1 red white and blue, and Sauber maybe back to their classic colours of blue, white and turquoise.

[Mark]

From Buttons point of view, does he really care any more?

His lifelong ambition is to become Formula 1 World Champion. He's done that now, so he may think he'll sit back and collect the money at McLaren.

Same way that it looked like Kimi lost interest after he'd become champion!

[jens]

I am surprised that Mallya hasn't bothered to make a move on Bunsen.

Well-spotted. At least it looks like Mallya is a bit sleeping at the current driver market. He has a relatively competitive car and with several good drivers at the market, while teams are pulling out, his negotiating position is at least reasonable. Okay, Kimi may not want to join Force India, but Vijay would be wise to at least try to get someone like Button or Heidfeld.

At Autosport.com interview Piquet mentioned that he is negotiating with Force India. Surely FI can get better than that. :dozey:

[keysersoze]

It looks like the money being offered Button from both camps was comparable. McLaren reportedly offered Jenson three years. Was Jenson looking for a longer deal from Brawn GP and didn't get it.

One seat is very likely to be taken by Nico. Is Brawn refusing to lock the other one up because they are waiting on Vettel to become available? ;)

[Malbec]

I am surprised that Mallya hasn't bothered to make a move on Bunsen. He has an unlimited source of cash

The problem is that he doesn't have the cash, he's in quite a bit of financial trouble.

[Lemmy-Boy]

[quote="Saint Devote"]Furthermore, trying to undermine Button's achievement not only flies in the face of the view of the teams and his fellow drivers in f1, but it is also evident that Jenson's win has disappointed you and I derive immense satisfaction from that :D [/QUOTE

Once again, your TROLLING has no merit. and your SELECTIVE MEMORY of F1 has failed to remember past History. Just because you win the championship, it doesn't guarantee you a winning seat the following year nor does it mean your talent level is above everyone else. After all, the past history of F1 has proven a top car is necessary to win the WDC.

Like the famous movie, "On Any Given Sunday" someone can show up win the big game. And yes, Bunsen showed up and collected the necessary points to win. BUT he still left question marks in regards to his overall talent level, especially compared to other drivers. If Bunsen was so highly rated (ie. Alonso, Hamilton, etc), he would've signed with a top team with a very high retainer. AND a lot more sooner.

Oh btw, just to refresh your diluted brain cells with recent history.

1992 World Driver Champion - Nigel Mansell dropped by Williams F1. Replaced by Alain Prost.

1996 World Driver Champion - Damon Hill dropped by Williams F1. Replaced by Heniz Frentzen.

It also doesn't take a genius to figure out that Brawn GP had a dominant car at the start of the year. Practically any driver of equal talent could have driven that car to victory lane. If Alonso or Hamilton was in the same car, they would've taken the WDC and probably a lot more earlier.

[Lemmy-Boy]

Your reasoning is simplistic and does not at all reflect the realities and complexities that constitutes formula 1.

Furthermore, trying to undermine Button's achievement not only flies in the face of the view of the teams and his fellow drivers in f1, but it is also evident that Jenson's win has disappointed you and I derive immense satisfaction from that :D

Once again, your TROLLING has no merit. and your SELECTIVE MEMORY of F1 has failed to remember past History. Just because you win the championship, it doesn't guarantee you a winning seat the following year nor does it mean your talent level is above everyone else. After all, the past history of F1 has proven a top car is necessary to win the WDC.

Like the famous movie, "On Any Given Sunday" someone can show up win the big game. And yes, Bunsen showed up and collected the necessary points to win. BUT he still left question marks in regards to his overall talent level, especially compared to other drivers. If Bunsen was so highly rated or considered an ELITE DRIVER (ie. Alonso, Hamilton, etc), he would've signed with a top team with a very high retainer. AND a lot more sooner.

Oh btw, just to refresh your diluted brain cells with recent history.

1992 World Driver Champion - Nigel Mansell, who destroyed the competition in 1992, including SENNA, was dropped by Williams F1. Replaced by Alain Prost.

1996 World Driver Champion - Damon Hill was dropped by Williams F1. Replaced by Heinz Frentzen.

It also doesn't take a genius to figure out that Brawn GP had a dominant car at the start of the year. Practically any driver of equal talent could have driven that car to victory lane. If Alonso or Hamilton was in the same car, they would've taken the WDC and probably a lot more earlier.

[F1boat]

Once again, your TROLLING has no merit. and your SELECTIVE MEMORY of F1 has failed to remember past History. Just because you win the championship, it doesn't guarantee you a winning seat the following year nor does it mean your talent level is above everyone else. After all, the past history of F1 has proven a top car is necessary to win the WDC.

Like the famous movie, "On Any Given Sunday" someone can show up win the big game. And yes, Bunsen showed up and collected the necessary points to win. BUT he still left question marks in regards to his overall talent level, especially compared to other drivers. If Bunsen was so highly rated or considered an ELITE DRIVER (ie. Alonso, Hamilton, etc), he would've signed with a top team with a very high retainer. AND a lot more sooner.

Oh btw, just to refresh your diluted brain cells with recent history.

1992 World Driver Champion - Nigel Mansell dropped by Williams F1. Replaced by Alain Prost.

1996 World Driver Champion - Damon Hill dropped by Williams F1. Replaced by Heniz Frentzen.

It also doesn't take a genius to figure out that Brawn GP had a dominant car at the start of the year. Practically any driver of equal talent could have driven that car to victory lane. If Alonso or Hamilton was in the same car, they would've taken the WDC and probably a lot more earlier.

It is true that St. Devote is a bit harsh on Jenson's haters, but they are unreasonable as well. Just from your examples, do you believe that Nigel is a bad driver? Do you believe that question marks in regards to Raikkonen's overall talent level, as he is yet to get a race seat? Who are the etc. guys from the ELITE after Alonso and Lewis, because from your post seems that only these two are the elite?

[Lemmy-Boy]

It is true that St. Devote is a bit harsh on Jenson's haters, but they are unreasonable as well. Just from your examples, do you believe that Nigel is a bad driver? Do you believe that question marks in regards to Raikkonen's overall talent level, as he is yet to get a race seat? Who are the etc. guys from the ELITE after Alonso and Lewis, because from your post seems that only these two are the elite?

Nigel was a great driver and remains one of my favorite drivers. His CART title in 1993 proved to the world he was one of the greatest All-Around drivers in the world. I wish he raced in NASCAR too! He could've taken a couple of titles away from Earnhardt, Stewart and Gordon.

If Nigel had a top car or was battling at the front, he was great to watch. But when Nigel had a lackluster car, he looked liked a mere mortal and like every other mid-fielder or backmarker.

On the other hand, Senna was an ELITE driver, even in a crappy car he ran toe-to-two with competitors in superior equipment. His performance in 1993 is a testament to this fact. Despite his weak McLaren-Ford in 1993, Senna proved to the world why he was the greatest during this time. His rain soaked victories in Donnington, Brazil and Japan was breathless! In addition, ELITE drivers like Schuey (1995) or Alonso (2008) can somehow win races in weak cars. All due to their driving talent.


Is Button the equal of Senna or Nigel? Perhaps he's just as good as Nigel. But the equivalent of Senna, Schuey, Piquet Sr, Lauda, Alonso or Prost? Right now, it's a definite NO.

If Buttons signs with McLaren and does a good job, perhaps he can prove to the world, including me, we're all wrong. His career is far from over :)

[Mark]

I am surprised that Mallya hasn't bothered to make a move on Bunsen. He has an unlimited source of cash, .

Nobody has an unlimited source of cash, especially not at Formula 1 sort of levels. F1 is littered with people who thought they had more than enough money but came up sort when they got to F1.

[F1boat]

Nigel was a great driver and remains one of my favorite drivers. His CART title in 1993 proved to the world he was one of the greatest All-Around drivers in the world. I wish he raced in NASCAR too! He could've taken a couple of titles away from Earnhardt, Stewart and Gordon.

If Nigel had a top car or was battling at the front, he was great to watch. But when Nigel had a lackluster car, he looked liked a mere mortal and like every other mid-fielder or backmarker.

On the other hand, Senna was an ELITE driver, even in a crappy car he ran toe-to-two with competitors in superior equipment. His performance in 1993 is a testament to this fact. Despite his weak McLaren-Ford in 1993, Senna proved to the world why he was the greatest during this time. His rain soaked victories in Donnington, Brazil and Japan was breathless! In addition, ELITE drivers like Schuey (1995) or Alonso (2008) can somehow win races in weak cars. All due to their driving talent.


Is Button the equal of Senna or Nigel? Perhaps he's just as good as Nigel. But the equivalent of Senna, Schuey, Piquet Sr, Lauda, Alonso or Prost? Right now, it's a definite NO.

If Buttons signs with McLaren and does a good job, perhaps he can prove to the world, including me, we're all wrong. His career is far from over :)

Great answer, mate, I agree with you and understand you! But sometimes a good driver can beat a great one, IMO - if he is consistent and hardworking.

[Valve Bounce]

Nobody has an unlimited source of cash, especially not at Formula 1 sort of levels. F1 is littered with people who thought they had more than enough money but came up sort when they got to F1.

I was just thinking of an advert where Bunsen holds up a stubby of Kingfisher while celebrating on the podium - Priceless. :)

[Mark]

I was just thinking of an advert where Bunsen holds up a stubby of Kingfisher while celebrating on the podium - Priceless. :)

And no doubt illegal in the UK!