Classic points

[call_me_andrew]

I thought it was worth sharing.

[after Texas, race 34 of 36]:
pos, car#, driver, points, behind
1) #14-Tony Stewart (X), 4895
2) #24-Jeff Gordon (X), 4802, -93
3) #48-Jimmie Johnson (X), 4801, -94
4) #5-Mark Martin (X), 4475, -420
5) #11-Denny Hamlin (X), 4446, -449
6) #2-Kurt Busch (X), 4438, -457
7) #42-Juan Pablo Montoya (X), 4312, -583
8) #16-Greg Biffle (X), 4299, -596
9) #39-Ryan Newman (X), 4245, -650
10) #18-Kyle Busch, 4183, -712
11) #9-Kasey Kahne (X), 4158, -737
12) #17-Matt Kenseth, 4151, -744
13) #99-Carl Edwards (X), 4137, -758
14) #33-Clint Bowyer, 4078, -817
15) #83-Brian Vickers (X), 3975, -920
16) #00-David Reutimann, 3969, -926
(X) a chase driver.(11-8-2009)

Compared with the Chase

[after Texas, Chase race 8 of 10; Season race 34 of 36]:
pos, car#, driver, points, behind, [wins], race finish
1) #48-Jimmie Johnson [6 wins], 6297, finished 38th
2) #5-Mark Martin [5 wins], 6224, -73, 4th
3) #24-Jeff Gordon [1 win], 6185, -112, 13th
4) #2-Kurt Busch [2 wins], 6126, -171, WON
5) #14-Tony Stewart [4 wins], 6119, -178, 6th
6) #42-Juan Montoya, 6061, -236, 37th
7) #16-Greg Biffle, 6050, -247, 8th
8) #11-Denny Hamlin [3 wins], 5975, -322, 2nd
9) #39-Ryan Newman, 5973, -324, 12th
10) #9-Kasey Kahne [2 wins], 5898, -399, 33rd
11) #99-Carl Edwards, 5857, -440, 39th
12) #83-Brian Vickers [1 win], 5777, -520, 26th

[Sparky1329]

That was worth sharing and I appreciate it. :) More proof that the stupid Chase is a crappy idea.

[The instant classic]

That was worth sharing and I appreciate it. :) More proof that the stupid Chase is a crappy idea.

so true
weird how under the old points Johnson still wouldn't be champ

[harvick#1]

you cant really go by those numbers though, drivers would've raced differently if the chase didn't exist, I would say Stewart would have a bigger lead if the chase wasn't invented

[Sparky1329]

You're probably right, harv. But here's the thing.....at least it would be a true evaluation of the season instead of this rigged BS. Too bad nobody has the power to fire Brain France for screwing things up.

[call_me_andrew]

I'm sure the board could have him removed. It's just a matter of giving them the proper motivation to fire a member of their family.

[Sparky1329]

I'm not so sure about that. How much more motivation do they need? He's choking the life out of the Golden Goose he was handed and that's not enough.

[The instant classic]

i would say brian france, i can 100% understand he doesn't want to be like his father or grandfather on how he runs his business. i can understand that.

but i really don't think he has the love for racing,and his "creative" ideas is what really hurts Nascar today. and once he got in power the talk of "fixed" races and fake yellow came out, i'm sure he loves the controversy for we are always talking Nascar.it's time for him to go
his idea belong in the wwe

[Lee Roy]

Has anyone calculated what the points would have looked like under the 1970 points scheme so we could compare?

[Lemmy-Boy]

In the end, Dale Jr. still can't make it into the top 12. Lol...

[Wade91]

I thought it was worth sharing.

[after Texas, race 34 of 36]:
pos, car#, driver, points, behind
1) #14-Tony Stewart (X), 4895
2) #24-Jeff Gordon (X), 4802, -93
3) #48-Jimmie Johnson (X), 4801, -94
4) #5-Mark Martin (X), 4475, -420
5) #11-Denny Hamlin (X), 4446, -449
6) #2-Kurt Busch (X), 4438, -457
7) #42-Juan Pablo Montoya (X), 4312, -583
8) #16-Greg Biffle (X), 4299, -596
9) #39-Ryan Newman (X), 4245, -650
10) #18-Kyle Busch, 4183, -712
11) #9-Kasey Kahne (X), 4158, -737
12) #17-Matt Kenseth, 4151, -744
13) #99-Carl Edwards (X), 4137, -758
14) #33-Clint Bowyer, 4078, -817
15) #83-Brian Vickers (X), 3975, -920
16) #00-David Reutimann, 3969, -926
(X) a chase driver.(11-8-2009)

Compared with the Chase

[after Texas, Chase race 8 of 10; Season race 34 of 36]:
pos, car#, driver, points, behind, [wins], race finish
1) #48-Jimmie Johnson [6 wins], 6297, finished 38th
2) #5-Mark Martin [5 wins], 6224, -73, 4th
3) #24-Jeff Gordon [1 win], 6185, -112, 13th
4) #2-Kurt Busch [2 wins], 6126, -171, WON
5) #14-Tony Stewart [4 wins], 6119, -178, 6th
6) #42-Juan Montoya, 6061, -236, 37th
7) #16-Greg Biffle, 6050, -247, 8th
8) #11-Denny Hamlin [3 wins], 5975, -322, 2nd
9) #39-Ryan Newman, 5973, -324, 12th
10) #9-Kasey Kahne [2 wins], 5898, -399, 33rd
11) #99-Carl Edwards, 5857, -440, 39th
12) #83-Brian Vickers [1 win], 5777, -520, 26th
thanks for sharing :) , as harvick#1 pointed out this might not be the exact standings, if the chase wasn't in effect, but the top 3 in classic points are almost as close as with the chase, and i actually think its possable that the standings going by classic points going in to the race in Homested might actually be closer that it will be with the chase,

although i'm a big fan of the chase becouse it usreally adds more excitment, but i have to admit, it will be kind of a shame if we miss out on a close points battle between Tony, Jeff, and Jimmie, becouse of the chase :s

[NickFalzone]

I actually don't mind the Chase, it adds a new level of competitiveness to the series that makes it a little more exciting to me at the 2/3rds mark of the season. But I wonder if it's actually successful with the fans? There could certainly be many other factors at play, but how has the TV ratings compared in the last third of the Chase seasons, vs. the regular non-Chase seasons? I honestly don't know, maybe they have bumped up the ratings. That's the main point of the Chase anyway. Since everyone knows the rules from the start of the season, it doesn't bother me as much that some consistent guys like Stewart are not at the front. He knew that from day one, and says that in interviews every time a moronic journalist asks him if he's annoyed about not being in the lead in points.

[Wade91]

i think this year the points battle was gonna be exciting eaither way,

going by the classic standings, Jimmie would be 94 points behind right now, which i think means that under the classic points system Jimmie would have taken the points lead from Tony some time before the race at Texas, but then fell back to 3rd after the race at Texas,

which means that the top 3 points under the classic points system going into the race at Texas, would have actually been closer than it was with the chase,

however the chase has still added alot of excitment to the season, as it does every season,

the last 5 seasons have alot more exciting than they would have been without the chase,

i think there should also be a chase in the Nationwide series

[call_me_andrew]

Has anyone calculated what the points would have looked like under the 1970 points scheme so we could compare?

Are you vollunteering?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Has anyone calculated what the points would have looked like under the 1970 points scheme so we could compare?

Maybe they should check out the points system when Herb Thomas and the Fabulous Hudson Hornet were around and apply that.

Fact is, JJ has won 7 races this year, and as of Phoenix and his dominating little effort there, only a village idiot would deny that the 48 has been the most dominating team over the course of the year. As the year has gone on, they have been up front more and more. Just like the last 3 years.

Funny, I think most of this displeasure wouldn't be an issue if JJ was in the lead going into the chase, and Tony was leading now....or JR. for that matter.

It always comes back to, my driver aint winning, so how can we moan about the points system to cover for the fact we don't like who is winning.

I believe they can file all of this as whining...

[call_me_andrew]

Here are the classic points after Pheonix.

1) #48-Jimmie Johnson(X), 4996
2) #14-Tony Stewart(X), 4983, -13
3) #24-Jeff Gordon(X), 4940, -56
4) #5-Mark Martin(X), 4635, -361
5) #11-Denny Hamlin(X), 4611, -385
6) #2-Kurt Busch(X), 4593, -403
7) #42-Juan Pablo Montoya(X), 4454 -542
8) #16-Greg Biffle(X), 4420, -576
9) #39-Ryan Newman(X), 4353, -643
10) #18-Kyle Busch, 4310, -686
11) #9-Kasey Kahne(X), 4276, -720
12) #17-Matt Kenseth, 4265, -731
13) #99-Carl Edwards(X), 4252, -744
14) #33-Clint Bowyer, 4224, -772
15) #00-David Reutimann, 4103, -893
16) #83-Brian Vickers(X), 4024, -972

So even though the points leader is the same, we have closer standings under this system than the chase. That makes this system sound nice to me.

And since I don't really have a favorite driver, I get to fly the flag of impartiality. So I can't really whine, I can only tell it like it is.

More than 1/2 of JJ's wins came in the Chase, and since the Chase only makes up 1/3 of the season it's not hard to tell why there's a problem with the system. Every race needs to be of equal value, instead we get 10 special races that just happened to be at the end of the year when Brian France decided to rip off USAR. I mean if you had to pick the 10 most important races of the year, would the Price Chopper 400 be one of them?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Here are the classic points after Pheonix.

1) #48-Jimmie Johnson(X), 4996
2) #14-Tony Stewart(X), 4983, -13
3) #24-Jeff Gordon(X), 4940, -56
4) #5-Mark Martin(X), 4635, -361
5) #11-Denny Hamlin(X), 4611, -385
6) #2-Kurt Busch(X), 4593, -403
7) #42-Juan Pablo Montoya(X), 4454 -542
8) #16-Greg Biffle(X), 4420, -576
9) #39-Ryan Newman(X), 4353, -643
10) #18-Kyle Busch, 4310, -686
11) #9-Kasey Kahne(X), 4276, -720
12) #17-Matt Kenseth, 4265, -731
13) #99-Carl Edwards(X), 4252, -744
14) #33-Clint Bowyer, 4224, -772
15) #00-David Reutimann, 4103, -893
16) #83-Brian Vickers(X), 4024, -972

So even though the points leader is the same, we have closer standings under this system than the chase. That makes this system sound nice to me.

And since I don't really have a favorite driver, I get to fly the flag of impartiality. So I can't really whine, I can only tell it like it is.

More than 1/2 of JJ's wins came in the Chase, and since the Chase only makes up 1/3 of the season it's not hard to tell why there's a problem with the system. Every race needs to be of equal value, instead we get 10 special races that just happened to be at the end of the year when Brian France decided to rip off USAR. I mean if you had to pick the 10 most important races of the year, would the Price Chopper 400 be one of them?

Here is the GIANT Flaw in your theory: If Jimmie, Tony and the like knew they were racing under the old system, would Jimmie gamble on fuel twice and lose in both Michigan races? No....he would have played it safe, and right there you can figure on at least an extra 100 points. Decisions made at every race going into the chase are made based on whether the team is in the top 12 or not. The teams race based on getting into that top 12. That means the top teams gamble more and go for wins when there is a good cushion keeping them in the top 12. As was the case for the 48. Other teams, trying to stay in that top 12 but are on the line gamble LESS and points race. Like the 42. Yet even with that, they still went all out for the win at Indy, so it wasn't like JPM was taking it easy.

If you had the old system, would you with 10 weeks left have 12 guys with a shot at winning the championship? NOT a CHANCE in HELL. You would have 1 maybe 2 guys close near the top, and maybe 3 to 4 max with a shot.

You dislike the Chase. Fine...do you hate the World Series? Do you hate the Super Bowl and NFL playoffs? The Pat's won every game but the Super Bowl. Should we eliminate playoffs in all sports because the team that won all the regular season games couldn't win when it mattered most?

Since you are all gung ho to eliminate the chase, what about the points system that Richard Petty was winning under in the 60's? Was it more valid?

Even under your twisted logic, Jimmie is STILL leading the chase, never mind Chad wouldn't have gambled on fuel in both Michigan races if there was no chase. I suspect if the chase never existed, the only thing that would change is the numbers. The 48 has won more races this year. PERIOD. They run front almost every week, and when was the last time they sucked in qualifying? Denial is a wonderful thing, but the only real misscarriage you could claim would be if he coughs a motor up early and Mark Martin wins. As good as Mark has been, under the old system you have Martin 361 points back. If Martin wins the chase, the 48 fans could complain. I would let em too and enjoy Mark's victory...cause I am a Mark Martin fan; but Jimmie's record this year has been better than anyone else's in terms of race wins and consistency, which the last time I looked was the way you handed out championships....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Oh yes. Andrew. Riddle me this: If you think the 26 races have no significance, tell that to Kyle Busch. He won 3 times, drove for the win all the time, and yet cannot win the championship. He wasn't consistent. He didn't finish solidly in the top 10 enough. Well, in the old system, he woudn't have a sniff at the championship by August. So I will buy the argument that some don't like teams not winning on a consistent basis still having a shot. If he made the Chase, he would. The Chase actually allows a driver to go for more wins ONLY if he is up in the points vs the rest of the top 12 and to get there you need to be consistent.

Which is the what the old system rewarded. Consistency. You had weird things like Kenseth winning only ONE race and the championship, and you and others I suspect hated him having the deal sealed 3 races before the end. WE had guys like Rusty Wallace winning 10 races and losing the championship to people who won 3 or 4 . Since people want to see race winners, and see people go for wins, this system is perfect for that. IN the final 10 races, JJ proved last year and this that competition is much closer and you have to just go all out. The only reason people are starting to hate the chase is they don't like Jimmie winning all the time. Well there is an answer to that, just Jack Roush, Joe Gibbs and all the Hendrick teams that are not run by Chad Knaus haven't found a way to beat him yet. It isn't Chad and Jimmie's fault that the rest of NASCAR cannot find a way to beat them on a consistent basis and it isn't NASCAR's fault either.

[call_me_andrew]

Comparing the Chase to stick and ball playoffs is useless. Only two teams go to the Super Bowl, but start & parks still show up for Chase races.

I suppose NASCAR should try using the boxing method where the point standings are kept secret until after the season ends. Conspiracy theorists will love that!

The Chase doesn't reward winning anymore than the old system, but it doesn't really reward consistency either because you can use the first 26 races as a throwaway test session.

I'd rather have a boring championship battle that treats all races equally than the Chase. I'd rather have a 56-3 blowout at the Super Bowl, than have the losing teams points count for double in the second half.

[Lee Roy]

The Chase doesn't reward winning anymore than the old system, but it doesn't really reward consistency either because you can use the first 26 races as a throwaway test session.

c_m_a, usually you're discussions are pretty damn good stuff, but the statement above in bold has to be the silliest thing I've ever seen you say. Unless you're a VERY dominant car, using the first 26 races as a throwaway test session is a good way to not make the chase.

[call_me_andrew]

And yet that's exactly how Johnson has done it for the last 4 years.

[The instant classic]

And yet that's exactly how Johnson has done it for the last 4 years.

i agree
and thats why i don't see Johnson as a true champ. when you do nothing half the year and race the last 10. only if other sports team could do that, lets do nothing till the playoffs start. if other drivers race like Johnson the first half of the season would be so boring
the top guys riding mid pack,

i can't wait for the day when Johnson **** around the first half of the season and when we get to richmond and he blows up and misses the chase
i bet anything the ratings ride and stands are better

[Mark in Oshawa]

c_m_a, usually you're discussions are pretty damn good stuff, but the statement above in bold has to be the silliest thing I've ever seen you say. Unless you're a VERY dominant car, using the first 26 races as a throwaway test session is a good way to not make the chase.

EXACTLY. He says Jimmie isn't worthy, and then he admits Jimmie is just toying with the field in the first 26 races. Really? You can cruise in the first 26? Tell Kyle Busch that.

This is so much BS that you have to presuppose that NASCAR guys just take days off.

NASCAR is 43 teams fighting out every weekend. They are all given points the same EVERY Race, and 12 will make a playoff. That is a far higher hill to climb than being one of 12 teams in a 30 team league (NFL) or 16 of 30 (NHL) and is simliar to the 8 out of 30 (MLB). Does anyone knock any of the winners in these sports if they didn't have the best regular season? No.

Jimmie won the most points this year under this system or the old one. Yet you guys say he isn't worthy. Out of the 4 he has one, I think only Gordon had more total points under the old system, but to say Gordon should have won is nonsense. The top 12 under this system all know that in the last ten races they have to perform, and yet Jeff fell down and couldn't beat the 48.

NASCAR Sprint Cup racing is harder to win in now with up to 20 cars capable of winning any week. The field is deeper, and the cars are a lot closer on performance than they were in the 70's or 80's. Yet Jimmie has won four championships against guys like Jeff Gordon or Tony Stewart who would DEARLY like to beat Jimmie straight up. You think they are going to claim they deserve a title under the old points system? They knew what the rules were and they couldn't couldn't stop Johnson.

I am NOT a big fan of the guy. I find him rather boring and just mechanical in how he gets it done, but give the man his due. I don't care which system you use, he will win. If you believe otherwise, you are just being contrary.

If there is no chase, he is going to run harder and gamble more in the early races, but anyone who notices how much he lays a beat down in the last 10 knows this is a VERY good race team. They are not going to be beaten too often under any system. They can afford maybe to have a bad finish or two under this system in the first 26, but so can everyone else who takes a run at him and they still have lost.

Whatever advantages he gains, everyone else has under this system. It isn't like he gets a bye into the last ten.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

i agree
and thats why i don't see Johnson as a true champ. when you do nothing half the year and race the last 10. only if other sports team could do that, lets do nothing till the playoffs start. if other drivers race like Johnson the first half of the season would be so boring
the top guys riding mid pack,

i can't wait for the day when Johnson **** around the first half of the season and when we get to richmond and he blows up and misses the chase
i bet anything the ratings ride and stands are better

You keep dreaming.......he wont mess around and blow up or screw up like Kyle did.....

The only guys beating this team will be the driver and the crew getting bored....

If Knaus leaves, then JJ may be beatable....but they are right now on top of the pyrmaid. All your wishful thiking don't mean squat.

[The instant classic]

You keep dreaming.......he wont mess around and blow up or screw up like Kyle did.....

The only guys beating this team will be the driver and the crew getting bored....

If Knaus leaves, then JJ may be beatable....but they are right now on top of the pyrmaid. All your wishful thiking don't mean squat.

the first 26 races that 48 teams races half*** and the last 10 they bring the A-game. all it takes is for the other teams to bring there A-game in the first 26. the 48 team can be beat they dont't even race the full season just the last 10, and don't forget it's racing anything can happen..even wishful thinking ;)

[call_me_andrew]

EXACTLY. He says Jimmie isn't worthy, and then he admits Jimmie is just toying with the field in the first 26 races. Really? You can cruise in the first 26? Tell Kyle Busch that.

This is so much BS that you have to presuppose that NASCAR guys just take days off.

NASCAR is 43 teams fighting out every weekend. They are all given points the same EVERY Race, and 12 will make a playoff. That is a far higher hill to climb than being one of 12 teams in a 30 team league (NFL) or 16 of 30 (NHL) and is simliar to the 8 out of 30 (MLB). Does anyone knock any of the winners in these sports if they didn't have the best regular season? No.

Jimmie won the most points this year under this system or the old one. Yet you guys say he isn't worthy. Out of the 4 he has one, I think only Gordon had more total points under the old system, but to say Gordon should have won is nonsense. The top 12 under this system all know that in the last ten races they have to perform, and yet Jeff fell down and couldn't beat the 48.

NASCAR Sprint Cup racing is harder to win in now with up to 20 cars capable of winning any week. The field is deeper, and the cars are a lot closer on performance than they were in the 70's or 80's. Yet Jimmie has won four championships against guys like Jeff Gordon or Tony Stewart who would DEARLY like to beat Jimmie straight up. You think they are going to claim they deserve a title under the old points system? They knew what the rules were and they couldn't couldn't stop Johnson.

I am NOT a big fan of the guy. I find him rather boring and just mechanical in how he gets it done, but give the man his due. I don't care which system you use, he will win. If you believe otherwise, you are just being contrary.

If there is no chase, he is going to run harder and gamble more in the early races, but anyone who notices how much he lays a beat down in the last 10 knows this is a VERY good race team. They are not going to be beaten too often under any system. They can afford maybe to have a bad finish or two under this system in the first 26, but so can everyone else who takes a run at him and they still have lost.

Whatever advantages he gains, everyone else has under this system. It isn't like he gets a bye into the last ten.....

I'm not saying he isn't worthy. I'm saying he's winning championships because by using 26 races as a test session, he's manipulating the rules to improve his performance (something NASCAR tries to crack down on at the technical side). It's like when a basketball team commits a bunch of intentional fouls at the end of a games so the other team can't run down the clock. The team might win the game but the last 2 minutes are too boring to watch.

[Lee Roy]

I'm saying he's winning championships because by using 26 races as a test session, he's manipulating the rules to improve his performance (something NASCAR tries to crack down on at the technical side).

He shows up with a legal car for each and every one of the 26 races. How is that manipulating the rules?

[djparky]

I'm not a fan of this stupid Chase system- the champion should be the driver who has scored the most points over the whole season- not just who does well in the last 10 races

this year has been pretty dull- JJ did a great job and more or less locked it up about 5 races in- there was never any doubt he was going to win it- simply because he's better than all the others. MM, JG etc have off weekends- you rarely see that from JJ- and well done to him and Knaus for doing what they've done. Even when he got caught up in that crash at Texas they couldn't take advantage of it

All things being equal there's no reason why he won't no 5 next year

I'm sure the one thing that NASCAR would like to see is Dale Jnr winning like that- sadly for them he hasn't got the talent to do so (even in the best team)

[call_me_andrew]

He shows up with a legal car for each and every one of the 26 races. How is that manipulating the rules?

As far as the Chase is concerned, the spirit of the rule is to make each race more important by breaking the year down into two seasons. Since they can coast their way into the top 12, they remove all urgency from the first 26 races which violates the spirit of the rule (but not the letter).

[wedge]

We could blame the points systems or we could blame 15 or so drivers for not doing a better job than the #48....

[NickFalzone]

I don't really mind the Chase, because it pretty much guarantees that at least a few of the final ten races will have legit consequences for the Championship (runaway victor usually takes at least the first 5 to establish a solid lead). That said, if they took away the Chase, I wouldn't mind that either. And the 48 doesn't slack the rest of the season, to get consistent top 5's-10's is not at all easy to do. I guess what he does is he doesn't push the car any further than he needs to go, he's willing to settle for a lot of top 5s as opposed to trying to go for the wins. But you could say that about a non-Chase points deal. I mean, Kenseth? And he's kind of the reason for the Chase in the first place. I guess the one thing NASCAR could do is reward wins EVEN more as far as bonus points for the Chase. Or maybe no bonus points at all. Montoya claimed that the lack of bonus points at the start of the chase is why his team was always behind and it was too tough to overcome.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm not saying he isn't worthy. I'm saying he's winning championships because by using 26 races as a test session, he's manipulating the rules to improve his performance (something NASCAR tries to crack down on at the technical side). It's like when a basketball team commits a bunch of intentional fouls at the end of a games so the other team can't run down the clock. The team might win the game but the last 2 minutes are too boring to watch.

All the other teams could do the same and haven't managed to beat Jimmie.

This is silly. People whined when Kenseth won with races to spare, and won ONE race. So they bring in the chase, and now the first 26 races are meaningless? No they aren't. Again, Ask Kyle Busch. How meaningless can your season be when you cannot be in the top 12 in points after 26 races? The reality is that in Cup racing there are 20 plus cars capable of winning any event. To be in the top 12 after 26 races is no slam dunk. All the attributes you need under the old system still hold true. Get wins, top 5's, and top 10's and NOT DNF. Under this system however you still have a shot at the championship because after 10 races you get a fresh shot at a championship. If anything, a championship where you have to go back to within 30 or 50 points of everyone with just 10 races left should be HARDER to win. Under the old system, only 2 or 3 guys were even within sniffing distance of the leader come September. Now there are 12.

No....your arguments don't hold any water with me. It is a system that is fair to every team. No team is getting special treatment. Just one has succeeded where others have failed. Instead of damning Jimmie with your faint praise and complaints, just admit the guy is good. I am not a fan of the guy but he is good. PERIOD. He is winning under a system where a stiff like Brian Vickers and guys who have not WON all season had a fresh shot at winning the championship and yet Jimmie still won going away.....If that isnt'the best driver, than I don't know who is.

[muggle not]

1. I am a Jeff Gordon fan and a Jr fan.

2. I don't particularly favor the Chase over the "Old" point system.

However, Johnson is a true Champ and would win the Championship regardless of the format. Johnson and Knaus will go down as one of the best combinations in the history of Nascar.

[The instant classic]

here is a way to fix everything. we all know johnson does nothing in the first 26 races

my idea is get rid of the whole points system, and the championship goes to the guy with the most wins, nascar change the points system alot to do with
Kenseth, and johnson is almost doing the same thing, it's time change up again, to be honest if my favorite driver was racing the like johnson, i still would be tierd of this, thats why i say no points, and the title goes to the guy with most wins in a season so from Daytona all the way to Homestead you have to work your a** off
to bad we didn't have that last year at between Busch and Edwards and going into Homestead WOW

[The instant classic]

here is a way to fix everything. we all know johnson does nothing in the first 26 races

my idea is get rid of the whole points system, and the championship goes to the guy with the most wins, nascar change the points system alot to do with
Kenseth, and johnson is almost doing the same thing, it's time change up again, to be honest if my favorite driver was racing the like johnson, i still would be tierd of this, thats why i say no points, and the title goes to the guy with most wins in a season so from Daytona all the way to Homestead you have to work your a** off
to bad we didn't have that last year at between Busch and Edwards and going into Homestead WOW

and yes i know johnson has 7 wins this year, and under my idea he would be champ BUT almost all his wins this year came in the chase, but under my idea he couldn't just ride around and wait for the last 10 races cuz who knows who might have a break out year and win like crazy? . and all 36 races would have more meaning to them

[Lee Roy]

As far as the Chase is concerned, the spirit of the rule is to make each race more important by breaking the year down into two seasons. Since they can coast their way into the top 12, they remove all urgency from the first 26 races which violates the spirit of the rule (but not the letter).

Thanks.

Can't say that I agree, but I understand what you're saying.

[harvick#1]

here is a way to fix everything. we all know johnson does nothing in the first 26 races

my idea is get rid of the whole points system, and the championship goes to the guy with the most wins,

ok Bernie :p :


the chase is a farce, most wins is a farce, the only championship point system Nascar needs is the 36 race point system.

now if you want to reward the winner more points, say 50 or so, thats fine by me. but Nascar always rewarded consistency over winning and thats how it needs to stay.

so under your system: a driver can get 8 wins and 28 DNF's and a guy can get 7 wins and 29 2nd place finishes. but driver A is the champion

that would be a joke of a point system

[The instant classic]

ok Bernie :p :


the chase is a farce, most wins is a farce, the only championship point system Nascar needs is the 36 race point system.

now if you want to reward the winner more points, say 50 or so, thats fine by me. but Nascar always rewarded consistency over winning and thats how it needs to stay.

so under your system: a driver can get 8 wins and 28 DNF's and a guy can get 7 wins and 29 2nd place finishes. but driver A is the champion

that would be a joke of a point system

back to the drawing board for me :s pin:

[Mark in Oshawa]

and yes i know johnson has 7 wins this year, and under my idea he would be champ BUT almost all his wins this year came in the chase, but under my idea he couldn't just ride around and wait for the last 10 races cuz who knows who might have a break out year and win like crazy? . and all 36 races would have more meaning to them

You seriously think he and Chad wouldn't win more races earlier? You seriously think for a SECOND that they are not trying in the first 26? That anyone is just cruising in the first 26?

You claim to watch NASCAR Cup racing and you just fail to understand what is going on in that first 26 races. It is only in the 4 or maybe 5 races of late July into August that maybe the top 3 guys in the final 12 maybe start to back off. IN the old system they backed off and NEVER took chances most of the rest of the season.

The year they just give the trophy to the guy who wins the most races period will be the year I quit watching. You ever think for ONE second that maybe a guy who wins 7 races and DNF's 29 times would deserve to win over someone who ran hard all season, with lots of top 10's and no DNF's? IN your world...THAT could happen....

The old system often went to the most consistently good driver who won races. That still holds.....despite the fact Brian France gives 11 other guys a free shot to beat on him in the last 10 races.

All you need to know is to look at Jimmie's car after the fall race in Martinsville. With the pressure of the chase, he put the car up front in qualifying, dominated the race, and when he hit victory lane, there wasn't so much as a donut on him. Anyone who can run that hard, that fast and that dominent at Martinsville without getting into someone is a MASTER.....

[The instant classic]

You seriously think he and Chad wouldn't win more races earlier? You seriously think for a SECOND that they are not trying in the first 26? That anyone is just cruising in the first 26?

You claim to watch NASCAR Cup racing and you just fail to understand what is going on in that first 26 races. It is only in the 4 or maybe 5 races of late July into August that maybe the top 3 guys in the final 12 maybe start to back off. IN the old system they backed off and NEVER took chances most of the rest of the season.

The year they just give the trophy to the guy who wins the most races period will be the year I quit watching. You ever think for ONE second that maybe a guy who wins 7 races and DNF's 29 times would deserve to win over someone who ran hard all season, with lots of top 10's and no DNF's? IN your world...THAT could happen....

The old system often went to the most consistently good driver who won races. That still holds.....despite the fact Brian France gives 11 other guys a free shot to beat on him in the last 10 races.

All you need to know is to look at Jimmie's car after the fall race in Martinsville. With the pressure of the chase, he put the car up front in qualifying, dominated the race, and when he hit victory lane, there wasn't so much as a donut on him. Anyone who can run that hard, that fast and that dominent at Martinsville without getting into someone is a MASTER.....

you really are just a waste of time mark really this is why i see so many fights around here

and again johnon does NOTHING the first half of the year under a new rule would stop that, and for martinsville yeah dominent i love sure how Denny Hamlin (http://www.nascar.com/drivers/dps/dhamlin00/cup/index.html) did that ;)
i aint in the best of moods tonight dont start with me or i will tell you what i really think baned or not, and i already said its back to the drawing board damn instigators

[Mark in Oshawa]

you really are just a waste of time mark really this is why i see so many fights around here

and again johnon does NOTHING the first half of the year under a new rule would stop that, and for martinsville yeah dominent i love sure how Denny Hamlin (http://www.nascar.com/drivers/dps/dhamlin00/cup/index.html) did that ;)
i aint in the best of moods tonight dont start with me or i will tell you what i really think baned or not, and i already said its back to the drawing board damn instigators

I am just debating you. You cannot accept that? Too bad....

You keep insisting the guy did nothing. Funny...he ran out of gas trying to win Michigan in June. I guess he was just stroking it then eh? Not trying? Test session? Ya right...

When someone argues with points that I can refute,I will. That is the whole point of being on the forum. To either debate a topic or talk about the race that was. Since we wont see a race til Feburary, I guess we can bench race all winter. If you cannot accept it...report me to the moddy. I don't think I have crossed one line....

[The instant classic]

I am just debating you. You cannot accept that? Too bad....

You keep insisting the guy did nothing. Funny...he ran out of gas trying to win Michigan in June. I guess he was just stroking it then eh? Not trying? Test session? Ya right...

When someone argues with points that I can refute,I will. That is the whole point of being on the forum. To either debate a topic or talk about the race that was. Since we wont see a race til Feburary, I guess we can bench race all winter. If you cannot accept it...report me to the moddy. I don't think I have crossed one line....

hmm well i guess you aint the one right now trying to play peace makering between friends, and listen to he said/she said, its and pissing me off :mad: :mad:
last warning!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Warn me for what? For having a point you don't agree with. Do your worst....I am not picking on you, Iam debating your point, which I found rather silly...

[The instant classic]

Warn me for what? For having a point you don't agree with. Do your worst....I am not picking on you, Iam debating your point, which I found rather silly...

trust me i know why you are a johnson fan, only cuz of his teamate
should i say more? or wait till i clam down?

[Mark in Oshawa]

trust me i know why you are a johnson fan, only cuz of his teamate
should i say more? or wait till i clam down?

No..sadly I am a Jr. fan and always have and alway will be a Martin fan. I hate the fact Johnson won this year, BUT he deserved it and THAT is my point and has always been my point. You can devise all the systems you want to stop him from winning, but if he is the best car and driver, he still will win.... you cant change that.

[Mark in Oshawa]

You seem to not grasp that you just hate Johnson, and that makes your argument weak. If your whole idea is I hate this guy so lets devise a system to screw him, then you are not using logic....

[The instant classic]

No..sadly I am a Jr. fan and always have and alway will be a Martin fan. I hate the fact Johnson won this year, BUT he deserved it and THAT is my point and has always been my point. You can devise all the systems you want to stop him from winning, but if he is the best car and driver, he still will win.... you cant change that.

best driver put him on a road track :rotflmao:
and he's never been challenge to be great. i quote Rocky Balboa movie
Theres always somebody out there. Always. And when that time comes and you find something standing if front of you, something that ain't running , Self respect

thats what he needs to be push like never before

[Mark in Oshawa]

best driver put him on a road track :rotflmao:
and he's never been challenge to be great. i quote Rocky Balboa movie
Theres always somebody out there. Always. And when that time comes and you find something standing if front of you, something that ain't running , Self respect

thats what he needs to be push like never before

Since NASCAR only runs 2 road courses a year, he doesn't have to be the best there, just be compentant. He was on the pole at the Glen this year...he holds his own. IF there were 4 road courses, maybe he woudln't win, but I live in the world of what is happening, not my utopia.

Of course he will lose eventually, just like Jeff Gordon didn't stay on top or Earnhardt. Till he is beaten, I am not going to say the guy isn't talented, because he has won 4 championships in a system that allows 11 other guys to get within 50 or so points of the lead with 10 to go. The fact he is stomping the crap out of people in the last 10 races is why he is winning, but the other guys are supposed to want to win just as bad, and two of them had equal equipment on the same team, and two had the same equipment in a different team, and yet he blew them all away. I am not a fan, but I am not going dump on the accomplishment. You can quote B rocky movies all you want....

[The instant classic]

Since NASCAR only runs 2 road courses a year, he doesn't have to be the best there, just be compentant. He was on the pole at the Glen this year...he holds his own. IF there were 4 road courses, maybe he woudln't win, but I live in the world of what is happening, not my utopia.

Of course he will lose eventually, just like Jeff Gordon didn't stay on top or Earnhardt. Till he is beaten, I am not going to say the guy isn't talented, because he has won 4 championships in a system that allows 11 other guys to get within 50 or so points of the lead with 10 to go. The fact he is stomping the crap out of people in the last 10 races is why he is winning, but the other guys are supposed to want to win just as bad, and two of them had equal equipment on the same team, and two had the same equipment in a different team, and yet he blew them all away. I am not a fan, but I am not going dump on the accomplishment. You can quote B rocky movies all you want....

so now he doesnt have to be the best at road tracks we turn a blind eye to that ok moving on

the way i feel is he needs to be push and needs someone to fight against every weekend like Petty had Pearson. Earnhardt had Wallace/Gordon
Johnson has......... without being pushed how good are you? and he only "kicks the crap out of people" in the last 10 races. maybe every driver should use the first 26 as a big test and save the good stuff for the last 10 maybe then we will be pushed.

[harvick#1]

I do say when Harvick has a car equal to Johnson, he knows how to push him and we've seen him acouple times with an even car beat Johnson, on a 1.5 mile track to a 1 mile track.

the only problem, RCR has been horrible and there cars are always hit or miss.

but there are drivers that can push Johnson.

Harvick, Bowyer, Stewart, Gordon, Martin, Kyle Busch, Kurt Busch, Denny Hamlin, and Carl Edwards are the top guys to do it

[Mark in Oshawa]

so now he doesnt have to be the best at road tracks we turn a blind eye to that ok moving on

the way i feel is he needs to be push and needs someone to fight against every weekend like Petty had Pearson. Earnhardt had Wallace/Gordon
Johnson has......... without being pushed how good are you? and he only "kicks the crap out of people" in the last 10 races. maybe every driver should use the first 26 as a big test and save the good stuff for the last 10 maybe then we will be pushed.

Richard Petty didn't win on every road course either. You going to say he isn't the King?

As for Johnson not having anyone push him, what was Carl and Kyle last year? He just beat them more often than they beat him. He kicks the crap out of people in the last 10 races, which is WHEN IT COUNTS.

How you know he isnt pushed? He screwed up in Tx., everyone talked about Martin getting back in the chase. I hoped Martin was back in it. Next race, he goes to Phoenix, one of Mark's BEST tracks and lays a beating on the field. The reason no one is pushing this guy because they cannot catch him.....It isn't his fault no one is got their poop in a group enough to catch him.

You are bitter and hate the guy. Great, do so, but quit denying he hasn't the talent. No one wanted Mark Martin to win more than I did this year, but it became really obvious that being good in 8 out of the last 10 races wasn't enough to stay close. Johnson was good all year, was second in points going into the chase and laid a beating on the guy who was 300 points ahead at race 26 to the point he would have won under the old system for his FOURTH Championship. Hate it all you want, it happened. That's sports....quit living in the past or devising stupid systems designed to beat the guy.

[The instant classic]

Richard Petty didn't win on every road course either. You going to say he isn't the King?

As for Johnson not having anyone push him, what was Carl and Kyle last year? He just beat them more often than they beat him. He kicks the crap out of people in the last 10 races, which is WHEN IT COUNTS.

How you know he isnt pushed? He screwed up in Tx., everyone talked about Martin getting back in the chase. I hoped Martin was back in it. Next race, he goes to Phoenix, one of Mark's BEST tracks and lays a beating on the field. The reason no one is pushing this guy because they cannot catch him.....It isn't his fault no one is got their poop in a group enough to catch him.

You are bitter and hate the guy. Great, do so, but quit denying he hasn't the talent. No one wanted Mark Martin to win more than I did this year, but it became really obvious that being good in 8 out of the last 10 races wasn't enough to stay close. Johnson was good all year, was second in points going into the chase and laid a beating on the guy who was 300 points ahead at race 26 to the point he would have won under the old system for his FOURTH Championship. Hate it all you want, it happened. That's sports....quit living in the past or devising stupid systems designed to beat the guy.

yeah what did kyle do last year lead the points in the first 26 races i didnt see johnson.and yeah he races when it counts so why show up for the first 26? and for carl didn't newman win like 12 races in 2003 and still didn't win? cuz someone points races his way to a title?

and who ever said i was bitter and hate johnson? and beside why do you care? you already said your not a johnson fan why do you care what i say? unless you reply to me i never care what you say around the forum to be honest...instigator much?

and for the king.. he races every weekend not the last 10,

[The instant classic]

I do say when Harvick has a car equal to Johnson, he knows how to push him and we've seen him acouple times with an even car beat Johnson, on a 1.5 mile track to a 1 mile track.

the only problem, RCR has been horrible and there cars are always hit or miss.

but there are drivers that can push Johnson.

Harvick, Bowyer, Stewart, Gordon, Martin, Kyle Busch, Kurt Busch, Denny Hamlin, and Carl Edwards are the top guys to do it

maybe RCR should start buying cars off KHI??

[call_me_andrew]

best driver put him on a road track :rotflmao:
and he's never been challenge to be great. i quote Rocky Balboa movie
Theres always somebody out there. Always. And when that time comes and you find something standing if front of you, something that ain't running , Self respect

thats what he needs to be push like never before

If memory serves, Jimmie Johnson was a pretty comepent motorcycle and off-road racer before he switched to stock cars.

[The instant classic]

If memory serves, Jimmie Johnson was a pretty comepent motorcycle and off-road racer before he switched to stock cars.

werid how that happens sometimes, Robby Gordon same thing off road racer turn stock car driver and doesn't own the road tracks and run up front beside winning both road races in 2003, but yet Marcos Ambrose is a road racer and he can run upfront, it's so weird :crazy:

[Mark in Oshawa]

yeah what did kyle do last year lead the points in the first 26 races i didnt see johnson.and yeah he races when it counts so why show up for the first 26? and for carl didn't newman win like 12 races in 2003 and still didn't win? cuz someone points races his way to a title?

and who ever said i was bitter and hate johnson? and beside why do you care? you already said your not a johnson fan why do you care what i say? unless you reply to me i never care what you say around the forum to be honest...instigator much?

and for the king.. he races every weekend not the last 10,

First off, you have done nothing but slag the guy. You DON'T like him and your don't respect him. I am going by your words.

They all points race, they all race with an eye on the points. Ryan Newman won 12 races one year and had a lot of DNF's to go with it. Points are given for staying on the track. If you are going to pay points down to 43rd, then wins wont matter unless you make them a lot more. IT is NASCAR's system, not mine. If Wins were worth 250 points, I can bet you Jimmie wins more races in the early season.

JJ raced every weekend. Just he races smart....he plays the game the rest of them could play and he is beating them. I don't care what points system you put out there, he likely would have won.

[Mark in Oshawa]

werid how that happens sometimes, Robby Gordon same thing off road racer turn stock car driver and doesn't own the road tracks and run up front beside winning both road races in 2003, but yet Marcos Ambrose is a road racer and he can run upfront, it's so weird :crazy:

Robby Gordon spent a lot of his early career in Trans AM and open wheel. He is a road racer period who adapted to NASCAR.

Jimmie ran off road but driving a NASCAR car on a road course is a bit different. He was on the pole at the Glen this past year. How much says he doesn't win a road race soon?

[The instant classic]

First off, you have done nothing but slag the guy. You DON'T like him and your don't respect him. I am going by your words.

They all points race, they all race with an eye on the points. Ryan Newman won 12 races one year and had a lot of DNF's to go with it. Points are given for staying on the track. If you are going to pay points down to 43rd, then wins wont matter unless you make them a lot more. IT is NASCAR's system, not mine. If Wins were worth 250 points, I can bet you Jimmie wins more races in the early season.

JJ raced every weekend. Just he races smart....he plays the game the rest of them could play and he is beating them. I don't care what points system you put out there, he likely would have won.

oh yeah i show him no repect same way you did with Denny Hamlin right?

[Mark in Oshawa]

oh yeah i show him no repect same way you did with Denny Hamlin right?
Hamlin is heck of a driver. I just don't like him. I think he is a bit of a punk and has a crappy attitude. That said, if he won the championship in the chase, I wont be posting a thread on here whinging about how wrong the chase is. You have in relation to Johnson.

I am a Mark Martin fan and I have supported Jr. pretty faithfully over the last 6 or 7 years. I didn't want JJ to win, but he did, and he did it by being that much better. You can shovel all the bs you want about points systems but that doesn't change.

[The instant classic]

Hamlin is heck of a driver. I just don't like him. I think he is a bit of a punk and has a crappy attitude. That said, if he won the championship in the chase, I wont be posting a thread on here whinging about how wrong the chase is. You have in relation to Johnson.

I am a Mark Martin fan and I have supported Jr. pretty faithfully over the last 6 or 7 years. I didn't want JJ to win, but he did, and he did it by being that much better. You can shovel all the bs you want about points systems but that doesn't change.


so its ok for you to call Hamlin a punk and crappy attitude but not ok for me to dieslike the way johnson races the chase, you cant have it both ways here

[Mark in Oshawa]

so its ok for you to call Hamlin a punk and crappy attitude but not ok for me to dieslike the way johnson races the chase, you cant have it both ways here

You are saying something about his ability when you say that. That is a point of discussion. You can say Iam wrong about Hamlin too..go ahead. I am not going to agree tho...he is a punk in my opinion. That is a subjective thing. How JJ races is not that simple. The point is he is the champ. Period. to say he doesn't deserve it or is cheating is just silly....

[The instant classic]

You are saying something about his ability when you say that. That is a point of discussion. You can say Iam wrong about Hamlin too..go ahead. I am not going to agree tho...he is a punk in my opinion. That is a subjective thing. How JJ races is not that simple. The point is he is the champ. Period. to say he doesn't deserve it or is cheating is just silly....

whats that comment i heard now.when i was talking about johnson and you came back yelling your head off

calling Hamlin a "punk" i guess i could use your line here First off, you have done nothing but slag the guy. You DON'T like him and your don't respect him. oh dear sometimes words can come back and bite and haunted you :(

[Mark in Oshawa]

whats that comment i heard now.when i was talking about johnson and you came back yelling your head off

calling Hamlin a "punk" i guess i could use your line here First off, you have done nothing but slag the guy. You DON'T like him and your don't respect him. oh dear sometimes words can come back and bite and haunted you :(

I have NEVER yelled....

Damn right I don't like Hamlin. didn't say I was a fan, BUT I respect the man's skill. He is a good driver and could win the championship. Just don't like him as a personality.

You have slagged Johnson for the way he won the championship, you slagged NASCAR for having the Chase thinking it gave Johnson the first 26 races off and somehow this was unfair to everyone else and other such tripe.

No..I am not mad or yelling in any fashion. Just pointing out your assertions are based on shifting sand.

IT is you that has the hatred for a driver that is irrational....

[The instant classic]

I have NEVER yelled....

Damn right I don't like Hamlin. didn't say I was a fan, BUT I respect the man's skill. He is a good driver and could win the championship. Just don't like him as a personality.

You have slagged Johnson for the way he won the championship, you slagged NASCAR for having the Chase thinking it gave Johnson the first 26 races off and somehow this was unfair to everyone else and other such tripe.

No..I am not mad or yelling in any fashion. Just pointing out your assertions are based on shifting sand.

IT is you that has the hatred for a driver that is irrational....


and again you still hate on Hamlin and nothing wrong in that? but its the end of the world when i say something about johnson? wow turn a blind eye again
and im pretty sure i said before if not i will say, even if my favorite driver did nothing all year and race only the last 10, fan or not i would be saying that aint right, i like the guy but thats wrong, i for one like kyle busch but i will say its wrong how he goes out of his way to make everyone hate him. and i have never said i hated johnson or said hes not a great driver, i dont jummp on a driver for there driving skills or personality, cuz with Hamlin IT is you that has the hatred for a driver and the personality.even tho you dont know the man himself
that is irrational.... ;) LOOOL omg im laughing so hard now

and you did yell you seem to alot, WHEN YOU WRITE LIKE THIS loool :D demanding huh?

[Mark in Oshawa]

and again you still hate on Hamlin and nothing wrong in that? but its the end of the world when i say something about johnson? wow turn a blind eye again
and im pretty sure i said before if not i will say, even if my favorite driver did nothing all year and race only the last 10, fan or not i would be saying that aint right, i like the guy but thats wrong, i for one like kyle busch but i will say its wrong how he goes out of his way to make everyone hate him. and i have never said i hated johnson or said hes not a great driver, i dont jummp on a driver for there driving skills or personality, cuz with Hamlin IT is you that has the hatred for a driver and the personality.even tho you dont know the man himself
that is irrational.... ;) LOOOL omg im laughing so hard now

and you did yell you seem to alot, WHEN YOU WRITE LIKE THIS loool :D demanding huh?

You spent most of the last 10 posts saying Johnson is cheating, not trying or the system isn't fair. You say the Chase favours him. Your signature slags him. Spare me your rot about NOT hating Johnson but respecting his talent. I don't like Hamlin, but I will say he is a great driver. You wont say Johnson is a great driver and said the system is flawed and he doesn't try. When I pointed this out, you had issue with it. I know where I am standing, and it is arguing with someone who cant make a point that makes sense to any rational mind.

If you just said you didn't like Jimmie, I could not quibble with that. You slagged the man's character and ability and I pointed out you were wrong and you didn't like it. He didn't cheat, he mopped the floor with the other drivers. You don't like it? Tough.

Denny Hamlin is not one of my favourites, nor is Kyle Busch, but both are talented guys and may win next year. I may not like it. I will not blame NASCAR or the CHASE tho if they win like you have. I am done explaining this to you. IF I told you the sky was blue, you would argue with me and tell me that I wont admit grass is green. It is just a sad circle you keep spinning in....

[The instant classic]

You spent most of the last 10 posts saying Johnson is cheating, not trying or the system isn't fair. You say the Chase favours him. Your signature slags him. Spare me your rot about NOT hating Johnson but respecting his talent. I don't like Hamlin, but I will say he is a great driver. You wont say Johnson is a great driver and said the system is flawed and he doesn't try. When I pointed this out, you had issue with it. I know where I am standing, and it is arguing with someone who cant make a point that makes sense to any rational mind.

If you just said you didn't like Jimmie, I could not quibble with that. You slagged the man's character and ability and I pointed out you were wrong and you didn't like it. He didn't cheat, he mopped the floor with the other drivers. You don't like it? Tough.

Denny Hamlin is not one of my favourites, nor is Kyle Busch, but both are talented guys and may win next year. I may not like it. I will not blame NASCAR or the CHASE tho if they win like you have. I am done explaining this to you. IF I told you the sky was blue, you would argue with me and tell me that I wont admit grass is green. It is just a sad circle you keep spinning in....

the saying of "jimmie johnson nascar golden girl ;) " is just a joke lighting up abit :rolleyes: on other forums i poke fun at Tony saying "Tony big belly"

see i can have fun i don't slam someone personality.like you sir :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

the saying of "jimmie johnson nascar golden girl ;) " is just a joke lighting up abit :rolleyes: on other forums i poke fun at Tony saying "Tony big belly"

see i can have fun i don't slam someone personality.like you sir :)

ok....I guess the numerous posts calling Jimmie a no talent bum taking advantage of the system means you were just kidding then too. As long as we are straight.

[The instant classic]

ok....I guess the numerous posts calling Jimmie a no talent bum taking advantage of the system means you were just kidding then too. As long as we are straight.

never once called him a bum, i have always said i dislike the way he races , nor can you with hamlin and busch
but again speaking if that again i aint the one who calls both of them immature and take shots at there crappy attitude (in your words)
and also take shots at my signature need i post more how you take shots at almost everyone here to? as long as we are straight i guess thats all in fun as well right? ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

never once called him a bum, i have always said i dislike the way he races , nor can you with hamlin and busch
but again speaking if that again i aint the one who calls both of them immature and take shots at there crappy attitude (in your words)
and also take shots at my signature need i post more how you take shots at almost everyone here to? as long as we are straight i guess thats all in fun as well right? ;)

I don't take it personally. I was debating you. As for taking shots at Busch and Hamlin, I am not the only one.

You just didn't like me debating you. Well that is the point of the forum isn't it? If we all agreed on everything, it would be dull as all get out.....

[The instant classic]

I don't take it personally. I was debating you. As for taking shots at Busch and Hamlin, I am not the only one.

You just didn't like me debating you. Well that is the point of the forum isn't it? If we all agreed on everything, it would be dull as all get out.....

dont like debating with you? thats funny in my past few post i said "im laughing so hard right now" i really find the whole thing fun, its funny when you put your foot in your mouth slam me for picking on johnson but you slam on hamlin and busch, that really made me laugh out loud, hey i understand you are trying to back out of this fine by me, last time we had our " debate" you ran away :(

[Mark in Oshawa]

dont like debating with you? thats funny in my past few post i said "im laughing so hard right now" i really find the whole thing fun, its funny when you put your foot in your mouth slam me for picking on johnson but you slam on hamlin and busch, that really made me laugh out loud, hey i understand you are trying to back out of this fine by me, last time we had our " debate" you ran away :(

No son, I have a job. It involves leaving the house and not being back for a week often. I have never avoided a debate on here, never will.

AS for putting my foot in my mouth? No...I am not. You cant separate a dislike of a driver from his talent, I CAN. You bashed Jimmie and said he wasn't a worthy champ because you dont' like him and thought the points system favoured him over the other drivers. Now that is illogical and I took up the debate. At some point you asked my my opinion of who I liked and wondered why I loved Jimmie. Then I told you no, he is the best driver, but he isnt' my favourite. At some point, I did admit I dont' like Hamlin. Still, I am consistent. I said I may not like the guy, but he is very good and could win the Championship next year.

I know this is tough for you, but explain in any way shape of form where Iam inconsistent? You can bash Jimmie for his vanilla personality, but spare me the tripe he isn't a deserving champ. He didn't win 4 by accident. He has never been lower than 5th in his 8 years in the series, and finished 2nd twice. He may be the most dominant driver outside of the run of Richard Petty in the mid Sixties. You may not like it, but the stats don't lie. Don't care whether you dump the chase or not, I suspect nothing much would change.

[The instant classic]

No son, I have a job. It involves leaving the house and not being back for a week often. I have never avoided a debate on here, never will.

AS for putting my foot in my mouth? No...I am not. You cant separate a dislike of a driver from his talent, I CAN. You bashed Jimmie and said he wasn't a worthy champ because you dont' like him and thought the points system favoured him over the other drivers. Now that is illogical and I took up the debate. At some point you asked my my opinion of who I liked and wondered why I loved Jimmie. Then I told you no, he is the best driver, but he isnt' my favourite. At some point, I did admit I dont' like Hamlin. Still, I am consistent. I said I may not like the guy, but he is very good and could win the Championship next year.

I know this is tough for you, but explain in any way shape of form where Iam inconsistent? You can bash Jimmie for his vanilla personality, but spare me the tripe he isn't a deserving champ. He didn't win 4 by accident. He has never been lower than 5th in his 8 years in the series, and finished 2nd twice. He may be the most dominant driver outside of the run of Richard Petty in the mid Sixties. You may not like it, but the stats don't lie. Don't care whether you dump the chase or not, I suspect nothing much would change.


I have never avoided a debate on here, never will, again funny should i go find when you told me once "its pointless im leaving" it was under a jr debate ;)

the way you think i bash johnson you make it sound like i dont want the guy in a race car, all i said was i dont like the way he races the chase, and even if my favorite driver did that i would still dislike it end of story im getting tierd of resaying it over and over i know its tough for you to let go. and as for bashing on johnson personality,i dont attack that way i aint you now :rolleyes: and yet you dont care if i dump on the chase now? i guess that means you have nothing left to say in this topic right? i can dump on the chase like crazy you dont care as you say. we will see, man of his word? or hypocrite?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Do want you want Classic....you just keep jumping around on this topic. Your contention was that Johnson wasn't worthy of the championship and the chase stunk. I pointed out I thought it didn't and explained why, and I thought your dislike of Jimmie was not a valid enough reason by itself and all the sudden I am the guy running from the argument? Ok....whatever.

As for the Jr. Debate, that one is as old as some shoes I own. You want to say Jr. sucks, I wont be bothered arguing with you. Making good points or bad seems to have little effect with you. Accusing me of running from an argument is laughable. I go away for a week at a time often in my job, and I am positive my top priority when I arrive home is NOT coming on here to argue racing with my buddy Instant Classic.....

[The instant classic]

Do want you want Classic....you just keep jumping around on this topic. Your contention was that Johnson wasn't worthy of the championship and the chase stunk. I pointed out I thought it didn't and explained why, and I thought your dislike of Jimmie was not a valid enough reason by itself and all the sudden I am the guy running from the argument? Ok....whatever.

As for the Jr. Debate, that one is as old as some shoes I own. You want to say Jr. sucks, I wont be bothered arguing with you. Making good points or bad seems to have little effect with you. Accusing me of running from an argument is laughable. I go away for a week at a time often in my job, and I am positive my top priority when I arrive home is NOT coming on here to argue racing with my buddy Instant Classic.....


not to argue with me? now wait first you called it debating now its arguing?

as for johnson i told you many many times why i dislike him, not a valid enough reason? what would you like? me to find away to dislike his date of birth and years of his life? i told you i dont like how he only races the last 10, and the first 26 mean nothing, thats not valid enough for you? if not then why even reply anymore?
wow i could go on other forum and hear, from johnson fans themselfs i disagree with you but i understand where you are comming from, but speaking of a valid enough reason you never gave me on about Hamlin or Busch, you more seem to bash on there "crappy attitude"


and as for keep jumping around on this topic. i said before i was done in this topic, when i said " back to the drawing board" far as i know the whole topic was dead, you reply to an old post of mine, so you brought me back into this topic, and i can talk about anything i please now.


as for being away cuase of your job? ok whatever . my job keeps me away to but i still find time to reply as quick as i can,

man of his word? or hypocrite? well i answerd my own question there my buddy :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Classic..Iam a trucker. I am AWAY. Believe it or not..I have a life outside of debating your points. I have given up trying to make heads or tails of your posts lately....

You don't like the way Johnson races in the first 26 if I am not mistaken. Great..he won 3 races there. Had the second highest total behind Martin tied with Stewart. Does that mean Tony was taking it easy? He was leading the points!!! You are trying to debate this and you don't even grasp how the points work. There is no point to this.

AS for me not liking Hamlin or Busch, I didn't say they were screwing around in the first 26 or they were racing "wrong". I have respect for what they do as drivers. You attacked Jimmie for how he races the first 26 yet he was second in points. If that is taking it easy I fail to see how. Face it, you lost the debate. This thread diversion of yours was based on JJ's not racing "properly" in your eyes and you make fun of the guy. I am still trying to figure out why you watch NASCAR since you obviously didn't pay attention to what JJ did in the first part of the year.


Ok...enough. Stick a fork in it, I have to head out and earn a living.....

[The instant classic]

Classic..Iam a trucker. I am AWAY. Believe it or not..I have a life outside of debating your points. I have given up trying to make heads or tails of your posts lately....

You don't like the way Johnson races in the first 26 if I am not mistaken. Great..he won 3 races there. Had the second highest total behind Martin tied with Stewart. Does that mean Tony was taking it easy? He was leading the points!!! You are trying to debate this and you don't even grasp how the points work. There is no point to this.

AS for me not liking Hamlin or Busch, I didn't say they were screwing around in the first 26 or they were racing "wrong". I have respect for what they do as drivers. You attacked Jimmie for how he races the first 26 yet he was second in points. If that is taking it easy I fail to see how. Face it, you lost the debate. This thread diversion of yours was based on JJ's not racing "properly" in your eyes and you make fun of the guy. I am still trying to figure out why you watch NASCAR since you obviously didn't pay attention to what JJ did in the first part of the year.


Ok...enough. Stick a fork in it, I have to head out and earn a living.....


i told you why i dislike johnson if thats not good enough for you thats not my
problem. what more do i need to say? i have already owned you 2 times now.
you just keep going on about, why do you dislike johnson? i tell you and you dont like it, not my problem

i made my point but, you go up in arms when i dislike on johnson, but its ok for you to slam on hamlin and busch, and how you cant have it both ways, and you went off on the i HATE hamlin, i ask you why and all i heard was ""crappy attitude" so again you never gave me a reason. but you go up in arms cuase my johnson reason is not good enough for you? hypocrite :rolleyes:


now as for johnson and the first 26 races, and the last 10. "I fail to see how. Face it" funny i remember when you said, johnson uses the first 26 as a big test for the last 10. but its ok for you to say it. but not for me ok whatever. so i guess everyone word on this forum means nothing to you. and thats why i see you do nothing but debate...oh sorry argue with everyone

you can use the truck driver line all you like. but if it means you are going to be away from home for weeks and week, then why even come to a forum and start something you cant finsh? ;) oh thats right "i lost" for not a valid enough reason. but i have said the same thing to true die-hard johnson fans and its a valid enough reason for them.

yup i lose but im still here and you are gone for some weeks Ok...enough. stick a fork in it, you lost and you know it and you just dont like it, cuz you are so use to getting in the personal shot on every user for no reason, and i gave it back at you.
you know what makes my win so sweet?... It's because I beat you at your own game ;) you leave..you lose thats how i see it, i win :heart:

[Mark in Oshawa]

i told you why i dislike johnson if thats not good enough for you thats not my
problem. what more do i need to say? i have already owned you 2 times now.
you just keep going on about, why do you dislike johnson? i tell you and you dont like it, not my problem

i made my point but, you go up in arms when i dislike on johnson, but its ok for you to slam on hamlin and busch, and how you cant have it both ways, and you went off on the i HATE hamlin, i ask you why and all i heard was ""crappy attitude" so again you never gave me a reason. but you go up in arms cuase my johnson reason is not good enough for you? hypocrite :rolleyes:


now as for johnson and the first 26 races, and the last 10. "I fail to see how. Face it" funny i remember when you said, johnson uses the first 26 as a big test for the last 10. but its ok for you to say it. but not for me ok whatever. so i guess everyone word on this forum means nothing to you. and thats why i see you do nothing but debate...oh sorry argue with everyone

you can use the truck driver line all you like. but if it means you are going to be away from home for weeks and week, then why even come to a forum and start something you cant finsh? ;) oh thats right "i lost" for not a valid enough reason. but i have said the same thing to true die-hard johnson fans and its a valid enough reason for them.

yup i lose but im still here and you are gone for some weeks Ok...enough. stick a fork in it, you lost and you know it and you just dont like it, cuz you are so use to getting in the personal shot on every user for no reason, and i gave it back at you.
you know what makes my win so sweet?... It's because I beat you at your own game ;) you leave..you lose thats how i see it, i win :heart:


When you move out of your mom's basement, you will get it.

I didn't lose, I am bored with it......

[NickFalzone]

I didn't lose, I am bored with it......

Surprised it took you that long.

[The instant classic]

When you move out of your mom's basement, you will get it.

I didn't lose, I am bored with it......

u lose get over it already :rolleyes:

[The instant classic]

Surprised it took you that long.

enjoying the show? :D

[Mark in Oshawa]

Surprised it took you that long. Well if you didn't argue or debate people here, what fun is it? I stayed at it far longer than I should of.....