R-Classes News

[Arganil]

Because it is a fact that the S2000 are reasonably cheaper both to purchase and to run than the 1.6T S2000 (those are same expensive as WRC cars). R5 is declared to be cheaper than S2000 and I don't have a reason not to believe it. I don't believe it will be half of the S2000 or so but I do believe it will be less and therefore much less than the 1.6T S2000. They declare to have much longer maintenance cyclus (now the S2000 engine rebuilds are in 700-1500 km, for R5 Peugeot speaks about 3000 km). they declare there will be some more strict price limits than for S2000. Of course the time will show.

Even using less expensive engines than RRC, R5 cars won't be cheap and only pro teams will use them, like it hapens with actual S2000NA cars, so amateurs thinking of replace N4 cars will have to stick with their aging material or change to 2wd.

The main reason why this new category won't be cheap it's the constant factory developement that Skoda and Peugeot will put in it, because both manufactureurs will compete one against other in IRC and by doing it costs will certainly raise beyond any strict price limited by FIA.

We've seen it happen with the S2000 cars where late Fabias and 207 prices almost doubled the initial €150.000 proposed price.

Instead of this expensive R5 cars FIA should introduce an amateur friendly 4wd category and promote their use in national and regional series.

The place of manus like Skoda and Peugeot is the WRC, it doesn't make sense anymore to have a international series like IRC competing with WRC.

If manus won't have the capacity, financial or political, to enter WRC using WRC cars, then FIA should bring back a 2wd world series inside WRC, like it happen in the late 90's with Kit-cars.

A WRC 2wd category using R3+ cars would be a much wiser step in order to sustain the so much needed WRC recovery.

[janvanvurpa]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/578636_366943576718207_1536473859_n.jpg

WRX STI R4 sedan to debut at Rally Hokkaido...


Please show me good photo of the rear suspension and arms etc before I make a comment saying oh boy.

Also what motor? Old EJ20 92 x 78 or the new whatever motor with 86mm bore and 86 stroke?

[Mirek]

Even using less expensive engines than RRC, R5 cars won't be cheap and only pro teams will use them, like it hapens with actual S2000NA cars, so amateurs thinking of replace N4 cars will have to stick with their aging material or change to 2wd.

Well, what is cheap? For me a Trabant is cheap :) The target of the R5 is to be TOP regional/national machinery. Spectators are not interested in gr.N cars as top machinery etc. We've seen that here very clearly when WRC cars were banned. Crowds disappeared. They came back slowly with the S2000. Cheap competition may look like a good idea but it can hardly work in reality. I think that GB is nice example that such way don't work very well. Rally needs spectacular cars and those will never be really cheap. Those days are over.


The main reason why this new category won't be cheap it's the constant factory developement that Skoda and Peugeot will put in it, because both manufactureurs will compete one against other in IRC and by doing it costs will certainly raise beyond any strict price limited by FIA.

We've seen it happen with the S2000 cars where late Fabias and 207 prices almost doubled the initial €150.000 proposed price.

It won't be just these two ;) But that doesn't really matter. New S2000 homologations were banned two years a go and instead there are only more expensive 1.6T S2000 cars that's why they want something more affordable. S2000 never cost 150 thousand even on start...


Instead of this expensive R5 cars FIA should introduce an amateur friendly 4wd category and promote their use in national and regional series.

What more simple You want to invent than a stupid mechanical 4WD without centre diff using four McPherson struts and almost stock engine? The only thing which can make it cheaper is to cancel current system of homologations and to allow anyone build his own parts instead of buying them from the manufacturer.


The place of manus like Skoda and Peugeot is the WRC, it doesn't make sense anymore to have a international series like IRC competing with WRC.

Why? It's commercial series so it can use whatever rules they want. I don't see any problem with that. WRC is driven by FIA, IRC not. To survive IRC must come with interesting offer for its competitors or it dies, simple as that. WRC has its existence granted.

A small question... is Škoda out of WRC because it wants or because there is VW going in? The answer applies globally.


If manus won't have the capacity, financial or political, to enter WRC using WRC cars, then FIA should bring back a 2wd world series inside WRC, like it happen in the late 90's with Kit-cars.

You don't see another part of the story. Through the years manufacturers joined into huge global companies which don't need competition of their own brands. You can't go back to twenty years a go. The number of really independent manufacturers now is really small.


A WRC 2wd category using R3+ cars would be a much wiser step in order to sustain the so much needed WRC recovery.

Only a fraction of real rally enthusiasts will go over the planet to watch R3 cars in action. Sorry, but this sport now is a promotion for car makers and it must attract large audience otherwise it turn into a forgotten hobby cup. The way for me is to allow much less strict rules for building cars. Why not allow small teams to build their own cars like in Dakar for example? There are many people capable of that who are now in rally-raids, hill-climbs, rallycross etc. where they can use their skills. Rally is closed for these true enthusiasts.

[Arganil]

Let’s face it: we were not talking about R5 if there wasn’t IRC.

IRC was a great and bold move from Eurosport in times where FIA representatives, leaded by Mr. Mosley, were negligent over rally and WRC. It has showed that rally should be diversified and that the sport’s heritage is one of its major assets.

Profiting from the FIA’s indolence, IRC kept growing year after year, attracting new manufacturers and organizers, not only from Europe but around the world, becoming a rival series to WRC.

Mr. Todt and FIA’s present leaders should have this in mind, as their effort in order to restore WRC status seems authentic. It’s crucial that WRC will be the undisputed pinnacle of the sport and the sole series capable of attract manufacturers at an international level.

If manus like Skoda or Peugeot have marketing reasons that enable them to compete for the WRC title, then FIA should organize a complementary series inside the WRC, like it did in the late 90’s with the 2wd world cup.

Letting these manus, or others, get involved in a rivalry international series like IRC will make WRC, and ultimately the sport, weaker, not stronger, simply because there’s only room to one great international rally series.

This is not a question of being in favour or against concurrency; the resources involved at the sport are limited, therefore too precious to be wasted. We just need to see around: F1 hasn’t a rival series, Indycars were left alone after Formula Cart disappears and Superbike will probably end in a fusion with Moto GP.

[Mirek]

Let’s face it: we were not talking about R5 if there wasn’t IRC.

IRC was a great and bold move from Eurosport in times where FIA representatives, leaded by Mr. Mosley, were negligent over rally and WRC. It has showed that rally should be diversified and that the sport’s heritage is one of its major assets.

Profiting from the FIA’s indolence, IRC kept growing year after year, attracting new manufacturers and organizers, not only from Europe but around the world, becoming a rival series to WRC.

Mr. Todt and FIA’s present leaders should have this in mind, as their effort in order to restore WRC status seems authentic. It’s crucial that WRC will be the undisputed pinnacle of the sport and the sole series capable of attract manufacturers at an international level.

If manus like Skoda or Peugeot have marketing reasons that enable them to compete for the WRC title, then FIA should organize a complementary series inside the WRC, like it did in the late 90’s with the 2wd world cup.

Letting these manus, or others, get involved in a rivalry international series like IRC will make WRC, and ultimately the sport, weaker, not stronger, simply because there’s only room to one great international rally series.

This is not a question of being in favour or against concurrency; the resources involved at the sport are limited, therefore too precious to be wasted. We just need to see around: F1 hasn’t a rival series, Indycars were left alone after Formula Cart disappears and Superbike will probably end in a fusion with Moto GP.

Sorry but again I have to disagree. Manufacturers needs publicity. You can never get so much publicity for winning some cup inside a higher competition (like to win SWRC). The overall winner will always get multiply more attention even if it's a rally of different series. There are always only few manufacturer contenders for the overall glory and it has always been like that. It's nothing new.

For manufacturer like VAG or PSA with different brands it is much better to fight for victories in two different series than to have them in same series competing with each other. It doesn't matter one is in different class. The average Joe don't see it. He sees that Citroën DS3 is ten places higher placed than Peugeot 208. Tell me any benefit of that for PSA? There is none. But if they can say we won a Rally GB with DS3 and a Tour de Corse with Peugeot 208 it's entirely different.

[Hazza555)]

Please show me good photo of the rear suspension and arms etc before I make a comment saying oh boy.

Also what motor? Old EJ20 92 x 78 or the new whatever motor with 86mm bore and 86 stroke?

I would imagine it is the ol' EJ20. Does the current STI (japanese spec, pretty sure only the 2.5 is available worldwide) even offer the new engine? (that is the new FJ20, correct? as found in the BRZ). And also if it is, I'm not sure if R4 homologation would allow the use of an engine that doesn't appear in the road car. Rumour's are that the next WRX will feature the new direct injection engine... either in 2.0 or 1.6 guise apparently.

I'm wondering if this R4 spec is going last. Mitsubishi don't look like their going to make another Evo, so that just leaves Subaru to fill the category, which wouldn't be bad for them, particularly if, like people are saying here, R5 becomes expensive and out of reach for privateers. Who else could make an R4 car? VW could do an R4 version of the Golf R... I guess, but I doubt that would ever happen.
What makes me really curious is that this R4 car has come out of Japan, and Prodrive haven't even seemed to have so much as touched the R4 specs. Could Subaru finally be ending their relationship with Prodrive and doing it out of their own backyard?

[TyPat107]

Please show me good photo of the rear suspension and arms etc before I make a comment saying oh boy.

Also what motor? Old EJ20 92 x 78 or the new whatever motor with 86mm bore and 86 stroke?

Have you seen the R4catalog John? They are upgraded arms with bearings not bushings and the have weld-in upper strut mounts to increase travel, kinda like what I think you did for DaveK. So they are better but I think it's only another 1-2" travel so not a lot better.

http://www.sti.jp/e/competitor/r4_parts/pdf/r4_partscatalog.pdf

Slightly off topic, but since John brought up the bore x stroke thing again...
Also after our conversation 2 weeks ago John I was doing some research that I want to try. Subaru made a 1.6l block with an 87mm bore and short stroke. The 79mm crank from a us 2.5l engine, factory length rods and custom pistons. Displacement will be just over 1.9l so it should rev a bit still with a 34mm restrictor, leaving terrible final drive options as the last hurdle...

[Mirek]

Hazza555): Engine regulation under R4 are same as for N4. No different engine possible.

TyPat107, janvanvurpa: On our "asphalt" I also noticed the bumping rear axle on all hatchback Imprezas Gr.N. The behavior of an R4 for example on landings of jumps looked much better by eye.

[Maui J.]

From Mirek... "The way for me is to allow much less strict rules for building cars. Why not allow small teams to build their own cars like in Dakar for example? There are many people capable of that who are now in rally-raids, hill-climbs, rallycross etc. where they can use their skills. Rally is closed for these true enthusiasts."

I total agree with this.

I think the FIA need to rewrite the rulebook regarding manufacturer 'consent'.

In my opinion, the new ‘R’ rules look good, but every new car needs manufacturer consent/homologation approval before that model is eligible to for competition.

If the FIA dropped the consent, then anyone could be able to develop a rally car within the particular R rule they have entered, providing the base model has reached it’s homologation quota. To equalize the cars, a list of approved aftermarket parts namely shocks, brakes, turbos, 4WD systems etc must be used.

This would I believe would open up the possibility to see numerous marques enter the WRC.
You, me, Tommi Makinen Racing, Possum Bourne Motorsport, M-Sport, MEM, Kronos, Prodrive, etc could take any car, stick on the FIA approved parts, safety gear, and then go rallying.

So for example, if Tommi Makinen Racing developed an Alfa Romeo MiTo using the approved FIA parts then that car should be eligible to compete in WRC rounds in whatever class it has been developed...R1, R2, R3, WRC etc

If the car does well, I’m sure the parent company would take an interest and maybe throw money to develop it further. Plus the potential for customer cars would be there as well… Alfa Romeo UK Rally Team, Alfa Romeo Brazil Rally Team etc.

I can also see the R-GT class also benefiting from this approach. Under the current rules, Lotus is the only manufacturer who has taken up the challenge to develop a rally car. Under the ‘no consent’ approach then we could see some amazing cars enter this class. Sure, these cars would get their bums kicked on gravel rallies, but the thought of an Aston Martin, Maserati, Dodge Viper, (or Bentley Continental!!!) in the right hands on Monte or Corsica would be fantastic.

[navtheace]

The BRC is allowing cars to be built to an R category spec for 2013 that has not gone through the very expensive FIA passport homologation etc. There are specific criteria, but it is a good test.

FIA need to cancel the world rally car category entirely and let rallying be R categories only. That way it brings rallying closer to the road car.

ie comparable to how it was with GpA & N era.

Then let the manufacturers build to the R category rules.

It could well happen if R5 becomes popular, and then with time the 4WD conversion and body kitting to R5 can be cancelled. Unless of course the road car is 4WD and flared out with wide arches.

[navtheace]

Sorry, here is the link: http://www.rallybrc.co.uk/docs/forms/2013_BRC_evolution.pdf

Also this news following that: BRC creates a stir (http://www.rallybrc.co.uk/index.php/latest-news/official-news/1109-brc-creates-a-stir-with-the-pros)

Following the announcement last week of proposed new technical regulations for the 2013 MSA British Rally Championship, the interest from manufacturers, their representatives and professional motorsport teams has been unprecedented.

Prodrive is the first company to publicly announce its intention to take advantage of the new rules. The Banbury firm’s Business Development Director Richard Taylor was reported in Motorsport News (29/08/2012), confirming that it is evaluating an R3 car based on the Mini Cooper.

The new regulations provide an opportunity for cars to be brought to the 2013 championship and run alongside currently homologated cars under a controlled passport system, which will serve as a reference in a similar way to FIA homologation papers.

[HaCo]

Very nice!

Verstuurd van mijn MT15i met Tapatalk

[Hazza555)]

Hazza555): Engine regulation under R4 are same as for N4. No different engine possible.



Thought so... So to my understanding, R4 is basically N4 but with modified suspension. Is there anything else... I notice that R4 impreza's have bonnet vents similar to that of the old 555's and WRC '97-'00.

[Mirek]

It's more things yes. I'm not absolutely sure so take the list easy. Besides new suspension it is lightened bonnet with vents, boot door and roof (?), plastic side windows, safety foam in door panels, new light dashboard (á la WRC) and maybe something else. Overall it shall be something like 40-100 kg down depending on a car type (most for Evo X).

[TyPat107]

Light weight heater assembly is another. And they are ridiculous expensive. €86 for a generic one from demon tweaks €300 with an sti badge... And they are similar enough

[janvanvurpa]

Have you seen the R4catalog John? They are upgraded arms with bearings not bushings and the have weld-in upper strut mounts to increase travel, kinda like what I think you did for DaveK. So they are better but I think it's only another 1-2" travel so not a lot better.

http://www.sti.jp/e/competitor/r4_parts/pdf/r4_partscatalog.pdf

Slightly off topic, but since John brought up the bore x stroke thing again...
Also after our conversation 2 weeks ago John I was doing some research that I want to try. Subaru made a 1.6l block with an 87mm bore and short stroke. The 79mm crank from a us 2.5l engine, factory length rods and custom pistons. Displacement will be just over 1.9l so it should rev a bit still with a 34mm restrictor, leaving terrible final drive options as the last hurdle...


It sure seems there something to that idea aboout right at 86mm being about the best all round bore for having enough room for 2 decent sized intake valves and do the quick burn,,,
Did they sell those EJ16s in Norte Americano market?
What about liners or sleeves and finally I'd sure as hell reace out the 87 onto the head and see if the valve aregoing to ram into the top of the block...

[vkangas]

Thought so... So to my understanding, R4 is basically N4 but with modified suspension. Is there anything else... I notice that R4 impreza's have bonnet vents similar to that of the old 555's and WRC '97-'00.
Tommi Mäkinen Racing's R4 kit (to TMR spec N4 Impreza)

LIST OF STANDARD R4 UPGRADE PARTS




SUSPENSION ITEMS (BOS R4)
Rear Running gear (Turret)
Top Mount Front
Top Mount Rear
Trailing link
Pillow Ball Bush Front for Trailing link
Pillow Ball Bush Rear for Trailing link
Rear lateral link Assy Front
Pillow Ball Bush for Rear Lateral Link Front
Rear lateral link Assy Rear
Pillow Ball Bush for Rear Lateral Link Rear
Pillow Ball Bush for Rear Upper Arm Front
Pillow Ball Bush for Rear Upper Arm Rear
Stabi link Front
Stabi link Rear
Ball Joint for Front Lower Arm *
Front Cross Member / Reinforcement kit *
Front Cross Member MTG Kit *
Pillow Ball Bush Front for Front Lower Arm *
Pillow Ball Bush Rear for Front Lower Arm *
Rear subframe *
Rear subframe MTG Kit *


SAFETY ITEMS
Front Doors Impact-Form Rh/Lh
Rear Doors Impact-Form Rh/Lh
Head Protection Form Rh/Lh
Front Door Carbon Trim Rh/Lh
Rear Door Carbon Trim Rh/Lh

WEIGHT SAVING ITEMS
Front Door Windscreen Rh/Lh
Rear Door Windscreen Rh/Lh
Rear Gate Windscreen
Heater and Demister

OTHER ITEMS
Front Heated windscreen (For Spec-C) *
Grill Hood Rh/Lh

* Available on complete kit

[navtheace]

Yes the R4 rules allow the car to be better.

However, the rules ensure that R4 is lot slower than WRC category. Why would Mitsubishi and Subaru be interested in R4 when the image to the public is a small town car (Fiesta and DS3) are faster than these hot 4wd turbo machines. Then from there, why would privateers buy R4 cars when they will be no where in a world champ or national rally.

People in rallying are wondering why Subaru and Mitsubishi are not committed to the world rally championship. Well, if you were one of the top people in any of these two Japanese companies, would you enter into the world rally championship in R4 and have a Fiesta and DS3 blow you away on the stages? How is that going to give the £20K plus 4wd turbo cars you have in the showroom a good image?

Rallying is no longer about what the road car can do, as a world rally car is not much to do with the road car anymore. All these R categories are just too expensive and will never be in the lime light whilst the World Rally Car class is still around.

FIA should cancel World Rally Car & S2000 and leave just R categories. Citroen and M Sport will soon adjust themselves into those categories after making threats that they will leave the sport.

[Franky]

I had this page open for a few hours because I couldn't decide wether to reply or not. I'm still not sure if it is the right thing to do, but here it goes.

Navtheace, you sound like a broken record or a human version of a bot. You seem to post, if not all the time lately, but at least most of the time the same kind of bitter comments regarding the World Rally Cars and the R categories. I understand that everyone has a right to their opinion but this is a bit silly. There have been plenty of counter arguments to your posts but it seems that you've decided to ignore them and come up with the same kind of negative posts.

Regarding your last post. There are manufacture teams only at the highest level. WRC is for the manufactures, all the R categories are more for the privateers and private teams. For example Honda, in Estonia the Honda Civic Type-R R3 has been quite popular among the fastest FWD drivers. And if that is not enough, then please explain me why there are so many group N Lancers and Imprezas in rallying.

Watching shopping carts drive on nice roads isn't interesting for the general audience.

[stefanvv]

Yeah, I've began to read the above post and gave up after the second line. I think I can explain this in the simplest possible way (as I understand it of course) - WRC cars are for just that - (W)orld (R)ally (C)hampionship - very expensive top machinery even based on cars from the lower class; S2000 are used mostly for IRC and ERC as top category cars; R-classes (I believe "R" comes from (R)egional) Rally cars, i.e. national championship as they are relatively cheap for a Rally cars. Of course every car can be used in every event, but that doesn't make much sense (WRC car to be used for local event with 15 entries) (at least for me) in conditions of global crisis. All these categories and classes exists to make Rally racing on every level affordable for every enthusiast. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I don't thing any manufacturer will be against to sell more of their cars, no matter in what conditions. After all, that is what all is about isn't it?

[janvanvurpa]

I had this page open for a few hours because I couldn't decide wether to reply or not. I'm still not sure if it is the right thing to do, but here it goes.

Navtheace, you sound like a broken record or a human version of a bot. You seem to post, if not all the time lately, but at least most of the time the same kind of bitter comments regarding the World Rally Cars and the R categories. I understand that everyone has a right to their opinion but this is a bit silly. There have been plenty of counter arguments to your posts but it seems that you've decided to ignore them and come up with the same kind of negative posts.

Regarding your last post. There are manufacture teams only at the highest level. WRC is for the manufactures, all the R categories are more for the privateers and private teams. For example Honda, in Estonia the Honda Civic Type-R R3 has been quite popular among the fastest FWD drivers. And if that is not enough, then please explain me why there are so many group N Lancers and Imprezas in rallying.

Watching shopping carts drive on nice roads isn't interesting for the general audience.

Well he's one of many who are obviously dismayed at seeing ever declining entries...
There's lots of factors and differences from country to country and culture to culture, but the one thing that is clear is with perfect hindsight of course, is they further the sport has gotten away from cars people can directly relate to, the more the cars become technological marvels akin to spaceships, the less anybody give a hoot. Manufacturers, drivers, spectators. (judging from 2 MFGs, 31 entries)

But you're right too. I walked past a new Fiesta yesterday, they're very rare here in the land of SUVs and Minivan, and since I have crawled around one previously studying the build of the road car and looking at the suspension (I make rally car suspension, so it was with a critical eye) I looked for a second and that was it.. Nothing really interesting, just a nice little fwd car hardly different than an old MKII Golf from 1985 (except the engine is only 1,6 16v vs a 1,8 8v, whoopie :rolleyes: I know what we can do with the VW motor, I don't know what we can do with the Fiesta motor)
Nice car. but as the young 'uns say "meh" :s

I've looked at as much British Rally Champ-peen stuff as i could stand---about 6 minutes. Some of the cars sound nice but they sure as hell aren't anything I'm going to spend time thinking about or watching, not when there's exciting stuff like Finland's F-cup a click away...

As for the Honda Type-R, we saw Finnish Junior Championship being nearly a single make cup and i asked the resident Finn who pointed out the class was limited to Homologated cars and max 1,6 liter... That explains that. Who knows what rules set sometimes leads to local dominance..

As for so many Mister-burus and Sububitchis, they're EASY, they do most of the work for you in stock form and they're fun enough for a certain % of guys.. Here in Fortress America™ in the last 10-11 years Sub-a-rats alone have been often little more than half the whole field, but in some more civilised countries they are maybe only 10%...
I saw a couple of years ago a list of individual cars entered in all of Finland for the whole year and the most popular car remained Escort MkII (rwd) followed by Corolla rwd, Starlets (rwd) BMW (rwd), Volvo (rwd), Opel (rwd) then somewhere all versions of Evo.....and 5 Subarus for the whole year.

People who know what the sport is voting with their pocket books because the rules allow them.

Obviously it would be a different picture is the rules makers were stupid enough to require Homologated cars for everybody.
Thankfully their stupidity is limited..

We are not so fortunate in North America. :bigcry:

[Mirek]

I think that the most important point of today is that nowadays car market is no more driven by sport success. Now 9 of 10 people buy the car because it is big enough and cheap. Reliable enough, having low fuel consumption, having big boot or good EuroNCAP rating. Maybe UK is different but from my surroundings I know only very few specimen who bought a car because it is fast and sporty. With more and more expensive fuel it won't change.

Especially in regards to that for any manufacturer it is way less expensive to make a team of fifty people to build few pieces of purpose built rallycar. It brings same marketing value but saves billions which would be needed for serial production of anything useful for rally. Now they can produce just simple cheap cars.

[noel157]

Where did the other R4T/R5 thread go? Or where they combined? If so posts are missing. Confused.

[noel157]

Thanks TB.

Was it always there?

[noel157]

Thanks. No I thought there was only the one thread but I've been reading both but forgot where the other one was.
Perhaps the other one could be combined with this one. Makes sense.

[navtheace]

R1T to be discussed by the FIA on 28th September I have heard.

1.4 turbo category. It will probably be strangled with a 29mm restrictor :(

[Mirek]

1.4T with 29 mm restrictor is Abarth 500 R3T. For R1 that is nonsense because such car has cca 180 Hp. Normal R1A car has like 100 Hp and R1B something like 130-140 Hp. I would agree to put 1.4T in R2 category but sure not in R1.

[Mirek]

First start and first victory for STI R4 saloon and Toshi Arai. Gaurav Gill (leader) retired with broken clutch, Alister McRae with overheating and Juha Salo crashed. So no S2000 finished.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8037/7999581819_8cbbfb7414_c.jpg

[kober]

First start and first victory for STI R4 saloon and Toshi Arai. [...] So no S2000 finished.What's the difference, approximately in seconds per km of a special stage, between R4 and S2000 cars?

[Mirek]

There are so many variables that You can't get some nice single value. There are stages where R4 can be even faster and there are stages where R4 have absolutely no chance.

[Ucci]

There are so many variables that You can't get some nice single value. There are stages where R4 can be even faster and there are stages where R4 have absolutely no chance.
R4 faster than S2000?? You know very well Mirek, this times are long gone...if drivers in both cars are equal, S2000 destroys R4/N4 on each stage, on each surface. S2000 is a pure racing car, R4 is basicly just a tuned road car.
If R4 car is faster than S2000, it is merely a driver's ability to drive so fast and take so much more risk (example B.Harrach).

[Mirek]

R4 faster than S2000?? You know very well Mirek, this times are long gone...if drivers in both cars are equal, S2000 destroys R4/N4 on each stage, on each surface. S2000 is a pure racing car, R4 is basicly just a tuned road car.
If R4 car is faster than S2000, it is merely a driver's ability to drive so fast and take so much more risk (example B.Harrach).

Don't think only about stages You know and forget about asphalt. On some gravel stages R4 must be faster because stages with several kilometers long straights do exist in some countries. The difference in top speed of Evo X and S2000 with long gearbox is some 40 km/h, maybe more.

[veegog]

First start and first victory for STI R4 saloon and Toshi Arai. Gaurav Gill (leader) retired with broken clutch, Alister McRae with overheating and Juha Salo crashed. So no S2000 finished.


Well done for Subaru again.
Toshi is not as fast as before but first rally with the new saloon and first win is very good result indeed!

[Sulland]

What is the advantage to go for a saloon vs a hatchback? Why is subaru going back to the saloon ?

[Humber]

Fiesta R5 - it appears M-Sport are putting together a R5 Fiesta - 32 mm restrictor on 1.6 litre turbo, same suspension on all four corners, stronger 5 speed gearbox.

M-Sport building new R5 Fiesta - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102681)

For the Subaru R4 Saloon - have a check of the FIA homologation list to see if there is a dual listing for the 5 door hatchback and 4 door saloon or separate homologation that has been rubber stamped at a later date.
Sometimes longer rear suspension can be put in the saloon rather than the hatchback on some cars.
For hitting snowbanks the saloon could have the edge.
http://youtu.be/a0j5XSJs75Y

[Mirek]

But the saloon is really big car. Almost 20 cm longer than the S12!

[navtheace]

If R5 Fiesta is faster than the RRC Fiesta, who will buy an RRC?

Who has bought an RRC anyway?!!

[Mirek]

Everyone who bought WRC. RRC is only a way to allow using WRC on national level (strange idea but that's how it is).

Tamrazov, A-Style, Jipocar, Al Rahji, al Suwaidi, Adapta, Maurin, Motortune, Ten Brinke or Kuipers (recently Al Attiyah?) are those who come to my mind as Fiesta WRC/RRC private users.

[pucky54]

Tamrazov, A-Style, Jipocar, Al Rahji, al Suwaidi, Adapta, Maurin, Motortune, Ten Brinke or Kuipers (recently Al Attiyah?)

to complete the list:
Ten Brinke and van Loon's cars are prepared by Wevers Sport. Stohl Racing, Friul and Svensson also have one car each

[Mirek]

Also Roche, Van Loon, Snijers,... Snijers his Mini WRC is for sale, so is the Fiesta of Prokop... Let's see what the future brings :)

For some reason I was thinking only about Fiesta. Another Minis of Invelt, Grifone (sold?), Al Kuwari etc.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

excuse me...
I have a question..:does r4 cars use clutchless transmission (like Impreza WRC in Colin's era)...??
thanks..

[Hazza555)]

excuse me...
I have a question..:does r4 cars use clutchless transmission (like Impreza WRC in Colin's era)...??
thanks..

I believe R4's still run the 5-speed h-patterns as the N4's did...

[Mirek]

I probably don't get it right in English. What is meant to be clutchless transmission? In N4/R4 You have dogbox where You can shift without using clutch although it's still H-pattern. I think that very first Impreza WRC had same system.

[navtheace]

R1T to be discussed by the FIA on 28th September I have heard.

1.4 turbo category. It will probably be strangled with a 29mm restrictor :(

Not long to go to hear these news.

[navtheace]

Looks like no news is just that, no news about R1T !

Renaults latest car for R3T Paris motor show: Renaultsport Clio | Autocar (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/paris-motor-show-2012/paris-motor-show-renaultsport-clio)

Could the new 1 series BMW as the 1.6 turbo become a R3T car ?

[Mirek]

Of course if BMW wants to do so (I doubt it because it's quite big car for the class).

[navtheace]

Any interesting news regarding the R classes this week? :)

[OldF]

Any interesting news regarding the R classes this week? :)

At the end of the red "box" GP Week : Issue 170, Page 1 (http://mag.gpweek.com/?iid=69024#folio=17)

[navtheace]

At the end of the red "box" GP Week : Issue 170, Page 1 (http://mag.gpweek.com/?iid=69024#folio=17)

Nice one OF :) Also the Malcolm Wilson interview talks about R5 and the RRC

[Mise]

So R5 looks like this:

Ford Fiesta
Citroen DS3
Toyota Aris
Peugeot 208
Renault Clio

Polo?
Mini?
Hyundai?

[kober]

Polo?
Mini?
Hyundai?Those guys need to sort out their WRC cars first. I wouldn't expect them to have the budget (or a purpose) to develop an R5 at the same time.

[Mise]

Those guys need to sort out their WRC cars first. I wouldn't expect them to have the budget (or a purpose) to develop an R5 at the same time.

So vw and Hyundai are starting with WRC, while Toyota starts with R5.
Is Toyotas WRC return confirmed?

[navtheace]

We could well see R5 become the top class for 2014?

I think 2013 will be a year of seeing both RRC & R5.

One thing is certain, is how many privateers are done with rushing to buy a new category car. Too many people have lost too much money on the depreciation on an expensive rally car after the development stops, the category changes or when most discover that it is not a category people are bothering with etc.

[EightGear]

Skoda?
Subaru? (I'm sure I read that somewhere here)

[had_zachau]

It's a public secret that Skoda develops R5 based on a new evolution of fabia. And Vojta Stajf confirmed in SMN TV that Subaru will have R5 too. But nothing official confirmed.

[Mirek]

Subaru developing R5 was mentioned many times. Also by Jean-Pierre Nicolas, director of IRC/ERC.

[Humber]

The Subaru Impreza group n can have a dog gear set made by PPG in Australia or other manufacturers.
Transmission WRC - Subaru WRC Spares Ltd (http://www.subaruwrcspares.com/9.html) This shows a few different Subaru wrc gearboxes.

Is Tommi Makinen involved with the R5 development like they were for the R4 ?

[Mirek]

We could well see R5 become the top class for 2014?

R5 is not class. Class is "2" and that is top class of all FIA championships except WRC already now. This class contains S2000, S2000 1.6T, R5 and R4.


I think 2013 will be a year of seeing both RRC & R5.

Sure but probably only at the second half of the year when first R5 comes.


One thing is certain, is how many privateers are done with rushing to buy a new category car. Too many people have lost too much money on the depreciation on an expensive rally car after the development stops, the category changes or when most discover that it is not a category people are bothering with etc.

R5 is going to fight for overall victories and therefore most of these cars will always be up-to-date. Look at the S2000. There are plenty of Abarth Puntos S2000 for very low price but no-one uses them as they are now already obsolete compared to latest cars. These are much more expensive but despite that almost all team using the S2000 use only the modern cars. This is specific of the top category. Something like that will not happen in the R1 or R2 but with R5 or S2000 there is no need to think about many years long use just because of performance. Any top cars became obsolete rather fast...

[trifonvl]

Which are the differences between a s20001.6T, a RRC and a R5 car??? Don' t they have the same engine with the same restrictor??

[makinen_fan]

R5 is not class. Class is "2" and that is top class of all FIA championships except WRC already now. This class contains S2000, S2000 1.6T, R5 and R4.


Mirek where does the RRC cars fit? Are they racing in Class 2? Are they classified as S2000 or S2000 1.6T ?

[Mirek]

Which are the differences between a s20001.6T, a RRC and a R5 car??? Don' t they have the same engine with the same restrictor??

S2000 1.6T and RRC is the same. RRC is just Ford marketing name, S2000 1.6T is FIA name for the cars.

R5 and S2000 1.6T don't have same engine. Both is 1.6T but different in many things starting from the philosophy. S2000 1.6T is more advanced engine which can be built from scratch but for regional championships it has small restrictor to reduce the WRC power. The engine of R5 is more simple, build for more durability (3-5x longer revision cycle). To achieve similar performance it uses larger restrictor.

[Mirek]

Mirek where does the RRC cars fit? Are they racing in Class 2? Are they classified as S2000 or S2000 1.6T ?

As I wrote. All S2000, S2000 1.6T, R4 and R5 are classified in same class 2.

[makinen_fan]

As I wrote. All S2000, S2000 1.6T, R4 and R5 are classified in same class 2.
I was just not sure whether RRC is the same as S2000 1.6T which you clarified above as well. Many thanks, everything is a lot clearer to me now!

[trifonvl]

S2000 1.6T and RRC is the same. RRC is just Ford marketing name, S2000 1.6T is FIA name for the cars.

R5 and S2000 1.6T don't have same engine. Both is 1.6T but different in many things starting from the philosophy. S2000 1.6T is more advanced engine which can be built from scratch but for regional championships it has small restrictor to reduce the WRC power. The engine of R5 is more simple, build for more durability (3-5x longer revision cycle). To achieve similar performance it uses larger restrictor.

Thanks for the help Mirek!!

[prpr]

Do 1.6t S2000 cars have different size restrictors on WRC events and FIA Regional Championship events?

[Mirek]

They can but usually don't have. If they have same 30 mm they are in class 2 (eligible for SWRC), if they have 33 mm like WRC they are in class 1 and therefore useless (without the rest of WRC kit but competing virtually only for overall standings). Class 1 was found useless as no driver ever started in it so they decided to cancel it next year.

[TheFlyingTuga]

If I'm thinking correctly, only Armindo and Daniel use the "SP" Mini with 33mm restrictor in Portugal last year!

[Mirek]

You are right.I forgot about this one occasion.Anyway it was first and last case ever...

[Mirek]

Giving up, You're better :D

[TheFlyingTuga]

My guess is that are the only cases, and just because Prodrive don't have any WRC body kit's to give at the time! And it doesn't make much sense running this cars in class 1! At least Armindo said that the car was quick but had much less downforce than a WRC car, what made him loose time!

[navtheace]

I think we need to see one restrictor size as 33mm for all classes.

[bt52b]

Could have sworn I seen RRC on some FIA document or other.

When do S2000 homologations finish? 2013?

I assume there soon will be R5 + kit = WRC. 2014? In theory this could reduce WRC costs.

[Mirek]

Nope, if I am not mistaken homologation ends 7 years after the car is not produced anymore (can be further prolonged). Most of S2000 homologations will be still valid after 2015 planned reduction of classes and cars.

If You mean when it is not possible to homologate completely new S2000 1.6T cars anymore than I have no answer (2.0 S2000 were banned for new homologations already in January 2011). I don't think FIA plans something like that because the only thing which it would cause is to rise the price of R5 and that really is not what is wanted. If You think You would make WRC cheaper by that the answer is no unless You somehow manage to ban works team competition...

[bt52b]

Nope, if I am not mistaken homologation ends 7 years after the car is not produced anymore (can be further prolonged). Most of S2000 homologations will be still valid after 2015 planned reduction of classes and cars.


If You mean when it is not possible to homologate completely new S2000 1.6T cars anymore than I have no answer (2.0 S2000 were banned for new homologations already in January 2011). I don't think FIA plans something like that because the only thing which it would cause is to rise the price of R5 and that really is not what is wanted. If You think You would make WRC cheaper by that the answer is no unless You somehow manage to ban works team competition...


Sorry, meant to say when are FIA stopping new S2000 1.6T homologations?

Makes sense to stop them, if they are pushing R5. Since R5 is supposed to replace S2000/R4, not sure it makes sense for new manufacturers to make S2000 turbo and R5. Hence kit to make R5 a WRC would save having to build an S2000, to make a WRC. Something the FIA haven't explained.

Maybe this is something they are planning for 2014.

Amazing the number of R5 about to be homologated, considering its something that should have been done a long time ago.

[Mirek]

The purpose of R5 is to be more affordable. I am afraid that using S2000 as a base for WRC made S2000 more expensive not the WRC reasonably less expensive (that's something which in my opinion can never be achieved by technical rules). The same would happen with R5. I hope they stay as they are for good of all levels of rallying.

[bt52b]

The purpose of R5 is to be more affordable. I am afraid that using S2000 as a base for WRC made S2000 more expensive not the WRC reasonably less expensive (that's something which in my opinion can never be achieved by technical rules). The same would happen with R5. I hope they stay as they are for good of all levels of rallying.


If they enforce a €170k cap on R5, will be interesting to see if they cap WRC prices.

Sometimes wonder if the S2000 based WRC's were a mistake from day one as they never seemed to met the aim of reduced costs.

[TyPat107]

If they enforce a €170k cap on R5, will be interesting to see if they cap WRC prices.

Sometimes wonder if the S2000 based WRC's were a mistake from day one as they never seemed to met the aim of reduced costs.

But a price cap doesn't really do anything does it? Sure the car may be capped at $xxx,xxx but the cost will be made up in the spares and rebuilds. Unless the fia set a price for every nut and bolt and labor...

[janvanvurpa]

But a price cap doesn't really do anything does it? Sure the car may be capped at $xxx,xxx but the cost will be made up in the spares and rebuilds. Unless the fia set a price for every nut and bolt and labor...

Dayum, mang that's a great idea! I think I be charging for the box and the tape and the Sooooper Bitchin Green I'm about to spray on you know what....should I charge for the gas to UPS tomorrow? What about the labor of carrying the boxes in? :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

(hint hint)

[Mirek]

If they enforce a €170k cap on R5, will be interesting to see if they cap WRC prices.

Sometimes wonder if the S2000 based WRC's were a mistake from day one as they never seemed to met the aim of reduced costs.

S2000 had price cap too. I think for R5 it is same as for S2000. The cap is for asphalt kit, not for complete car. The price of the car will be cca same with S2000, that is around 250 thousand. What is different is that for R5 there is planned to have simpler maintenance and much longer revision cycles (for example they speak about 5000 SS km for engine - compare to 700-1500 for S2000).


But a price cap doesn't really do anything does it? Sure the car may be capped at $xxx,xxx but the cost will be made up in the spares and rebuilds. Unless the fia set a price for every nut and bolt and labor...

S2000 actually had price cap for many components and I believe current WRC cars have it too. The problem is that by lobbying manufacturers have strong word in settings those limits. I can't imagine a price cap for mens labor.

Anyway anything what is going to be the pinnacle of the sport will always be expensive because there is always someone willing to pay for the best. I'm sure You saw the law of this phenomena - the dependence of price and quality. Close to the top every little step forward You do costs hell of money and time. I don't see this changing unless we make WRC one make cup without direct works involvement.

[Arganil]

The purpose of R5 is to be more affordable. I am afraid that using S2000 as a base for WRC made S2000 more expensive not the WRC reasonably less expensive (that's something which in my opinion can never be achieved by technical rules). The same would happen with R5. I hope they stay as they are for good of all levels of rallying.

Get real Mirek. S2000 didn't turn expensive because they inspired WRC1.6T. They completely overtake cap prices (from initial 168.000€ to over 300.000&#8364 ;) simply because they were used by factory teams to compete on IRC manufacturers tittles.

The same will happen to R5 in ERC.

Every time a manu uses a car to compete with other makes in an international series, costs rise hugely. It's an arms race and for that manus don't look to expenses. Factory teams entered cars are continuously updated in an endless process of technical development to reach the perfect set-up using state of the art components. That involves a permanent testing programe and a large number of new homologations.

Obviously, all this costly operations will be reflected in costumer's units sale price. That's way it's hard to believe that a full specs R5 car (tarmac and gravel) will cost under 250.000€ (largely over FIA target price), but in a few months will know it for sure.

[Mirek]

EDIT: Checked some prices.

Škoda Fabia S2000
Completely new asphalt car (completed) is for 285 thousand Euro.
Cars previsously used by factory team in IRC cost around 190 thousand Euro.
Ex-factory test car costs 150 thousand Euro.

New Mini WRC/SPC costs 320 thousand GBP which is around 400 thousand Euro.
Fiesta RRC costs 360-390 thousand GPB which is up to 480 thousand Euro! See the difference?

[Mirek]

Another notice - comparing only what I remember also for S2000.

Fiesta S2000 transmission revision every 2000 km (if I remember well) Fiesta RRC 400 km!!!
Engine rebuild Fiesta RRC 30 thousand GBP (37000 Eur!!!), two years a go for Fabia S2000 it was 7000-12000 Euro if I remember well. I don't know now...
Spare gearbox Fiesta RRC 37000 Euro, Fabia S2000 22000 Euro (two years a go).

[navtheace]

Just shows how out of control the costs have become.

The sooner the FIA pulls things right down to what is allowed in the technical regs, the better.

[Sulland]

EDIT: Checked some prices.

Škoda Fabia S2000
Completely new asphalt car (completed) is for 285 thousand Euro.
Cars previsously used by factory team in IRC cost around 190 thousand Euro.
Ex-factory test car costs 150 thousand Euro.

New Mini WRC/SPC costs 320 thousand GBP which is around 400 thousand Euro.
Fiesta RRC costs 360-390 thousand GPB which is up to 480 thousand Euro! See the difference?

Do anyone remember the initial price for an Corolla or Abarth GP S2000 with asphalt undertray only?

[Mirek]

I think it was around 250 thousand already back than. The cap which Agranil mentioned was for kit, not for complete car.

[navtheace]

Remember the costs with S1600 cars when there was supposed to be a 'price cap'

Price limits do not work, the way to bring the price down is to limit the modifications technically and open up self sourcing of who can supply. Look at how it was with GpN for Subaru, the 'homologated' brake calipes were STi engraved AP units with a higher cost than the same ones from AP.

Same kind of thing with the roof vent, you could not use a self sourced one that complied with the shape and weight, it had to be a STi homologated one for over a thousand pounds.

[dimviii]

the 'homologated' brake calipes were STi engraved AP units with a higher cost than the same ones from AP.
.

homologated AP racing brakes arein a totaly different league from standart brembos equipped sti from factory.

[navtheace]

homologated AP racing brakes arein a totaly different league from standart brembos equipped sti from factory.

What I mean is that you cannot buy AP racing calipers from AP, you have to buy the STi homologated ones which are made by AP.

Same with roof vent, only the homologated vent.

Rules need to move to along the lines of a spec and minimum weight for these additional items.

etc etc.

[dimviii]

What I mean is that you cannot buy AP racing calipers from AP, you have to buy the STi homologated ones which are made by AP.

Same with roof vent, only the homologated vent.

Rules need to move to along the lines of a spec and minimum weight for these additional items.

etc etc.
yes you are right.

[Abarth]

Now there is several front wheel drive R classes, why not make a modern rear wheel drive R class?

[vkangas]

Now there is several front wheel drive R classes, why not make a modern rear wheel drive R class?
We have it. R GT, but.... it's pathetic.

[Mirek]

Any of those 2WD R classes can accommodate RWD cars as well but the manufacturers simply don't produce such cars anymore. Even BMW slowly turns back to RWD (the new minivan is first FWD and there will be more of those). If BMW wants the 1er could be used for R3 but it seems they are not interested.

[navtheace]

If BMW wants the 1er could be used for R3 but it seems they are not interested.

Is the 1 series available as a 1.6 litre turbo petrol? Then that could be an R3T car

New Subaru/Toyota RWD could become R3 cars?

[Mirek]

Yes, it is. BMW 1 can be used to build all three variants of R3 (C, D, T) but BMW doesn't look interested. Anyway the new generation of 1er is quite big car for R3.

Toyobaru yes but I don't think they plan to do so. Subaru plans to make R5 of the BRZ (probably).

[janvanvurpa]

Yes, it is. BMW 1 can be used to build all three variants of R3 (C, D, T) but BMW doesn't look interested. Anyway the new generation of 1er is quite big car for R3.

Toyobaru yes but I don't think they plan to do so. Subaru plans to make R5 of the BRZ (probably).

Excuse me, isn't that a "Subu-yota"? :eek:

[janvanvurpa]

What I mean is that you cannot buy AP racing calipers from AP, you have to buy the STi homologated ones which are made by AP.

Same with roof vent, only the homologated vent.

Rules need to move to along the lines of a spec and minimum weight for these additional items.

etc etc.


Same with a brake bell....must have the homologated PN in it or it's disqualification.
Example: these Ford Sierra Cosworth bells which I make cost reatail about USD100
http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr116/janvanv/jvabbrakesandstruts.jpg


The Ford Group A bells I basically copied (except for the disc bolt circle--I used 8 bolts on a 7 inch circle, Ford used 10 bolts on a different bolt circle) cost at the time aorund USD 400.

The disc, which is made specific for my set up, also retails for around USD100, the AP discs with the Ford 909xxxx part number was nearly USD325 for this size.

Thus, brakes and bells alone, just one front set with tax around 250% more----for no appreciable difference.

And that's an easy part...

The Homologation requirement for every last little dumb thing is exploited brutally by the Manfacturer teams to finance their operations... I know what it costs to make things, because that's what I do, even if it is in much smaller scale---and they way CNC machining works bigger runs means far far lower costs per unit....example: I make steel flywheels for a car....the lathe work cost at 10 units is around USD80 each.. At just 25 units, the cost for machine time drops to around USD29...

This exploiting of the rule "it has to have the homolgated PN" on it is one reason why the cars cost the insane amounts they do, simple cynicism. Supported by people repeating "Racing has always been about money"..

Oh I thought it was about skill.

[Mirek]

You're of course right. I think we discussed that many times :) My conclusion was no more simplification or standardization, that has no meaning in terms of cutting costs until the current system of homologations exists - it only ruins the all time present technical competition. Sadly it won't change as manufacturers will hardly go against their own business and FIA won't make anything to make them angry...

PS Toyobaru just sounds nicer to me than Subuyota :)

[Jack4688`]

Subaru plans to make R5 of the BRZ (probably).

Impossible - the engine is mounted too far back and too low down to accommodate four wheel drive. Unless they decide a PTO and a second gearbox is a good idea :D The other idea of course would be to have a two wheel drive car competing against all the four wheel drive ones.

Having said that it worked for the Sierra Cosworth and BMW M3 against the Celicas and Deltas.... But then the Sierra didn't win the WRC and no one entered a Delta to rival Jimmy McRae in the BRC etc etc

[SubaruNorway]

Subaru plans to make R5 of the BRZ (probably).

There is a brand new WRX and STI coming that will be perfect for that. Short wheelbase like the fiesta and DS3. A new car, not based on the Impreza anymore.

[TyPat107]

There is a brand new WRX and STI coming that will be perfect for that. Short wheelbase like the fiesta and DS3. A new car, not based on the Impreza anymore.
Anymore details? It's supposed to be out for 2014 correct?

[Hazza555)]

Anymore details? It's supposed to be out for 2014 correct?

I read something awhile back about a 1.6 turbo, 300 ps, short-wheelbase, and the intention of going rallying again. But it might just have been speculation.

[OgyWRC]

Is there any information about Renault Sport homologation plans for the new Clio 1.6T (200 EDC)?

[navtheace]

Not built to R rules, but here is Mark Higgins when he drove a 'rally' prepared Subaru BRZ
Mark Higgins and the Subaru BRZ take on Isle Of Man [Video] (http://www.torquenews.com/1084/mark-higgins-and-subaru-brz-take-isle-man-video)

So an R3 BRZ could come about?

Renault Sport is an interesting one, as they are active with their homologations for R cars but they are not involved in the WRC with world rally cars, S2000, 4WD etc.

[OgyWRC]

I was thinking about Clio 200 EDC R3T/class 5 homologation plans, if they exist. Until now RS announced that Clio Cup will make its competitive debut in the 2013 Eurocup Clio season, but nothing about rally homologation.

I'll be glad to see Clio or Megane version in R5 class, despite that Megane N4 was a disappointment for me.

[navtheace]

In the UK there is the BRC (British Rally Championship) which is allowing manufacturers to enter a new R class car without having to get an FIA passport for the car.

In a bid to encourage new cars into the R classes, it has to be the manufacturer or a motorsport team which is representing the manufacturer though.

So lets see if 2013 could bring about M Sport to work on the new Fiesta 1.6 turbo road car into a R3T rally car? Same for Subaru UK with the BRZ for R3.

[Arganil]

What will be Subaru main plan in building an R5 car? To provide rally clients from all around the world a (costly) substitute for their Gr.N cars or to get officialy involved in international series like ERC or APRC?

Either way I hope they'll use R5 as a mean to get back to WRC, their natural environment!

[Hazza555)]

What will be Subaru main plan in building an R5 car? To provide rally clients from all around the world a (costly) substitute for their Gr.N cars or to get officialy involved in international series like ERC or APRC?


To replace the N4 cars that are being phased out... and seeing as R4 isn't up to much...

[Jack4688`]

An R5 car will only allow them to get back to the WRC in the new WRC2 category. Too much difference to have a simple means of making a WRC variant of an R5 machine.

[Sulland]

What will be Subaru main plan in building an R5 car? To provide rally clients from all around the world a (costly) substitute for their Gr.N cars or to get officialy involved in international series like ERC or APRC?

Either way I hope they'll use R5 as a mean to get back to WRC, their natural environment!


Main goal, win WRC 2 and get data. Earning money by selling cars.

[Mirek]

I think that winning ERC is much more interesting than WRC2 because You can win there overall and that is something different. Look now who is interested in SWRC or PWRC? Besides few true fans no-one even knows something like that exists...

[navtheace]

Any update on R cars this week?

Do Suzuki have any cars homologated in Group R ?

[Humber]

Anymore details? It's supposed to be out for 2014 correct?

The mechanicals for the road going 2014 Subaru WRX (insidea current body shell) have been heat tested in Death Valley during the Northern Hemisphere summer.
2014 Subaru WRX Spy Shots (http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1078745_2014-subaru-wrx-spy-shots)

[Franky]

In my opinion Subaru designs are loosing character more and more with each year.

[Mise]

PS Toyobaru just sounds nicer to me than Subuyota :)

Souldn't it be eather Toyaru or Subota since they both have only 6 letters? :D

[navtheace]

Any news with R class cars this week?

It will be interesting to see how S2000/RRC Vs R5 goes. Surely one of the classes will fall by the side. Bit like Blu-ray Vs HD DVD ?

I can't see both categories (which are comparable) below the World Rally Car category surviving.

[Mirek]

Škoda is trying to push FIA to allow 1.2T or 1.4T in R2 class.

[navtheace]

Škoda is trying to push FIA to allow 1.2T or 1.4T in R2 class.

If Citroen have a 1.4 turbo petrol car, then it will happen easily. As it seems that Citroen get their way with the FIA.

Look at how quickly Peugeot got going with R5. It is as though Peugeot were ready with R5 before the FIA announced it!

[Georgi]

Last Wednesday there was meeting of FIA for the next season but there are no news so far. I guess FIA is having many proposals like the one from Skoda. It will be good to have policy involving most of the car companies. The R1/R2 and R3 classes are a key points to me. I support the idea of 1.2 or 1.4 turbo engine for R2 category.
But as you wrote FIA is much more French than anything else :arrows:



If Citroen have a 1.4 turbo petrol car, then it will happen easily. As it seems that Citroen get their way with the FIA.

Look at how quickly Peugeot got going with R5. It is as though Peugeot were ready with R5 before the FIA announced it!

[dimviii]

If Citroen have a 1.4 turbo petrol car, then it will happen easily. As it seems that Citroen get their way with the FIA.

Look at how quickly Peugeot got going with R5. It is as though Peugeot were ready with R5 before the FIA announced it!

if a manufacture would like to make a r2 1,2t or a r5 car, be sure that fia wouldn t deny to give the specifications.

[navtheace]

if a manufacture would like to make a r2 1,2t or a r5 car, be sure that fia wouldn t deny to give the specifications.

I meant how the FIA bring in a new category that looks somewhat suspect that has come about from the encouragement of Citroen/Peugeot.

Not a manufacturer needing specifications to a category that is already in place by the FIA.

[Mirek]

You don't know when the negotiations about R5 start and who was involved, do You? So what You write is just some feelings which may well be wrong...

[dimviii]

I meant how the FIA bring in a new category that looks somewhat suspect that has come about from the encouragement of Citroen/Peugeot.
also encouragement of Ford and Skoda and Renault and....all these are working already before you and me can find regulations at FIA site.


Not a manufacturer needing specifications to a category that is already in place by the FIA.

a car such a r5 category needs years of work.Of course they HAVE to know the regulations to design and fabric all parts.
the problem would be if a manufacture asked for regulations,and Fia denied to give.Do you know such a case? if you know enlight us please.

[A FONDO]

How could you be so blind..... I'lll give you a joker for homework: R3T????????????

[dimviii]

i am not blind,i just dont suffer from Frenchphobia.

[tommeke_B]

If Citroen have a 1.4 turbo petrol car, then it will happen easily. As it seems that Citroen get their way with the FIA.

Look at how quickly Peugeot got going with R5. It is as though Peugeot were ready with R5 before the FIA announced it!
Manufacturers have more info than we have... ;) Also M-Sport and Skoda are working on R5 for a long time already. I think the strategy is just different, could be that Skoda and M-Sport are waiting to see how the Peugeot performs first, so they can maybe make some changes to make their cars better than the Peugeot. For the Fabia S2000 the development took very long also. Peugeot is probably using their strategy to start selling the 208 R5's as soon as possible, to make some profit with it...

[tommeke_B]

How could you be so blind..... I'lll give you a joker for homework: R3T????????????
Wasn't Fiat first with their 500 Abarth R3T? They unveiled the car in late september 2009. DS3 R3T has been seen on rallies for the first time in 2010 I think? Homework anyone SlowSon? ;)

[A FONDO]

When I wrote that I was suffering from hangover, that's why it was so short and difficult to understand. I intended to point not just the creation of this separate class, but more important - its connection with R5 and the incredible, all-purpose, cheaper, simpler etc 1,6t engine. Why it is so so similar to the introducing of the S2000 class, the same brand has the initial development advantage, the same suppliers Oreca, Pipo Moteauire, Sadev.... I "say" more than i write, I know it sounds like an easy excuse but I really can't explain well enough in English so try to rethink and combine the things by yourself. Two weeks ago some information leaked, that PSA already has 20+ prepaid 208 R5s. Where are the other brands? Still nowhere, but when they finally catch up after several years, there will be introduced a new top class with new chassis and new "outstanding" engine. "To reduce the costs" :laugh:

[tommeke_B]

It's not because the other manufacturers are not talking yet, that they are not working on it... ;) What Peugeot is doing now is pure marketing, I don't expect the others to be years behind with their cars. :)

[dimviii]

When I wrote that I was suffering from hangover, that's why it was so short and difficult to understand. I intended to point not just the creation of this separate class, but more important - its connection with R5 and the incredible, all-purpose, cheaper, simpler etc 1,6t engine. Why it is so so similar to the introducing of the S2000 class, the same brand has the initial development advantage, the same suppliers Oreca, Pipo Moteauire, Sadev.... I "say" more than i write, I know it sounds like an easy excuse but I really can't explain well enough in English so try to rethink and combine the things by yourself. Two weeks ago some information leaked, that PSA already has 20+ prepaid 208 R5s. Where are the other brands? Still nowhere, but when they finally catch up after several years, there will be introduced a new top class with new chassis and new "outstanding" engine. "To reduce the costs" :laugh:

Skoda was nowhere when Peugeot launched the 207....which was more succesfull?
Ηοmework for next week this one.

[tommeke_B]

Skoda was nowhere when Peugeot launched the 207....which was more succesfull?
Perhaps impossible to know... But who made most money with selling S2000's (and parts)? ;) I wouldn't be surprised if it's Peugeot.
Also Peugeot had good publicity from 2007 to 2011, while Skoda had publicity from 2009 to 2012 (but maybe more/better publicity in shorter time-period).
@SlowSon: First S2000 was Fiat Punto btw, they were competing in early summer 2006 already while Peugeot debuted only at the very end of the year (Condroz 2006 as 0-car with Bouffier).

[dimviii]

Perhaps impossible to know... But who made most money with selling S2000's (and parts)? ;) I wouldn't be surprised if it's Peugeot.
of course is not surprise that Peugeot sold much more cars when were selling cars for 6 years than 3 for Skoda,but thats not the point of most succesfull car. ie Focus vs C4 is Focus more succesfull?

Also Peugeot had good publicity from 2007 to 2011, while Skoda had publicity from 2009 to 2012 (but maybe more/better publicity in shorter time-period).


in years they competed together,Skoda was much more succesfull even 207 had 3 years evolution.So there is no point who is going to introduce first the car.As you mention sometimes the later cars have the advantage to see weakness or points that can be better from the first introduce car.

[Mirek]

@SlowSon: First S2000 was Fiat Punto btw, they were competing in early summer 2006 already while Peugeot debuted only at the very end of the year (Condroz 2006 as 0-car with Bouffier).

Punto S2000 1.6.2006
Corolla S2000 1.12.2006
Polo S2000 1.2.2007
207 S2000 1.2.2007

Plus two never finished projects developed since 2005 - Lada 112 and Renault Logan. I don't think more words are needed...

[navtheace]

Very difficult to know what goes on with the FIA behind closed doors.

Lets just see how the new R5 class goes.

[Mirek]

Does anyone know if there are plans for Suzuki Swift R1B? The basis is in my opinion better than those of existing R1 cars.

[navtheace]

M Sport showing the R5 as featured news from their website

M-Sport's Ford Fiesta R5 nears completion (http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/news/1295-m-sports-ford-fiesta-r5-nears-completion)

[OgyWRC]

I have heard that Renault Clio 1.6 R3T (or R5 maybe) project is ready at 90%, but RS should wait to sell 2500 cars of the new Clio RS in order to receive homologation.

Any pros and cons about that rumour?

[rallyfiend]

I have heard that Renault Clio 1.6 R3T (or R5 maybe) project is ready at 90%, but RS should wait to sell 2500 cars of the new Clio RS in order to receive homologation.

Any pros and cons about that rumour?

Is there any required number of sales to reach homologation anymore?

[Mirek]

Not a number of sales but there is still a required amount of production. Usually 2500 in one year.

[tommeke_B]

2500 cars is nothing for Renault... That should not be a barrier for them. I haven't heard any of the rumours but wouldn't be surprised if they work on R3T or R5 (let's hope for both!). :)

[PLuto]

I have heard that Renault Clio 1.6 R3T (or R5 maybe) project is ready at 90%, but RS should wait to sell 2500 cars of the new Clio RS in order to receive homologation.

Any pros and cons about that rumour?

I am not so optimistic...

[tommeke_B]

Something different:Opel kehrt in den Rallyesport zurück*:: rallye-magazin.de (http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/adac-rm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2012/11/21/opel-kehrt-in-den-rallyesport-zurueck/index.html)

Optimistic about this PLuto? :)

[Jack4688`]

Corsa R5 - I like the sound of that. Maybe RML could develop it as they have 1.6 turbo engine to use with any GM manufacturer (i.e. their WTCC engine can be used in GM cars other than Chevrolets). Or is the GRE ineligible in the R5 class but still eligible for RRC spec cars?

[TheFlyingTuga]

Something different:Opel kehrt in den Rallyesport zurück*:: rallye-magazin.de (http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/adac-rm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2012/11/21/opel-kehrt-in-den-rallyesport-zurueck/index.html)

Optimistic about this PLuto? :)

I think they got things wrong when they anunced the R2 Adam! It says in the article that the car will have a 1.6l Turbo-charged engine!!! Doesn't R2 cars have to be 1.6l normally aspirated cars?

[RICARDO75]

I think they got things wrong when they anunced the R2 Adam! It says in the article that the car will have a 1.6l Turbo-charged engine!!! Doesn't R2 cars have to be 1.6l normally aspirated cars?

No, you´r wrong. That's for 2014 for the new Corsa R3T and R5.
The Adam as 1.600c.c. natural aspirated engine with 145hp.

More photos from Opel Adam R2 (http://media.opel.pt/content/media/pt/pt/opel/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/pt/pt/2012/opel/11_21_opel_motorsport.html)

[TheFlyingTuga]

"Ab der Saison 2014 greift Stufe zwei des modularen Rallyeprogramms, bei dem der Adam gemäß FIA R2-Reglement zum Einsatz kommt. In der technischen Grundkonfiguration stimmt das Fahrzeug mit der Cup-Variante weitgehend überein, der 1,6-Liter-Turbomotor leistet in dieser Ausführung etwa 190 PS. Für Aufsteiger lässt sich die Adam Cup-Version auf R2-Standard aufrüsten"

For what I understand from this (with google translate) is that the car will have a nearby R2 configuration for 2013, with the 1.6l atmospheric engine with 145bhp, and a R2 configuration for 2014 with a turbocharged 1.6l engine with 190bhp!!!

[Mirek]

Which is nonsense :)

[TheFlyingTuga]

Which is nonsense :)

So google translated it wrong! Arghhh

Thanks Mirek

[PLuto]

Something different:Opel kehrt in den Rallyesport zurück*:: rallye-magazin.de (http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/adac-rm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2012/11/21/opel-kehrt-in-den-rallyesport-zurueck/index.html)

Optimistic about this PLuto? :)

Yes, I am more optimistic about it. I know about this project for few weeks. The biggest problem for international homologation is that they dont have ideal engine for R2 in Adam portfolio, so they have asked FIA for excuse. But the most important is that Opel wants to go into Motorsport...

[PLuto]

"Ab der Saison 2014 greift Stufe zwei des modularen Rallyeprogramms, bei dem der Adam gemäß FIA R2-Reglement zum Einsatz kommt. In der technischen Grundkonfiguration stimmt das Fahrzeug mit der Cup-Variante weitgehend überein, der 1,6-Liter-Turbomotor leistet in dieser Ausführung etwa 190 PS. Für Aufsteiger lässt sich die Adam Cup-Version auf R2-Standard aufrüsten"

For what I understand from this (with google translate) is that the car will have a nearby R2 configuration for 2013, with the 1.6l atmospheric engine with 145bhp, and a R2 configuration for 2014 with a turbocharged 1.6l engine with 190bhp!!!


Original text in german:

Ab 2014 greift „Step 2“ unseres modular aufgebauten Rallyeprogramms, bei dem der ADAM in der R2-Version zum Einsatz kommt. Die technische Konfiguration – Frontantrieb, 1,6-Liter-Saugmotor – ist in der Basis identisch mit dem vorgenannten Triebwerk, wird aber den spezifischen R2-Anforderungen mit entsprechenden technischen Feinabstimmungen angepasst und leistet etwa 190 PS. Für „Aufsteiger“ lässt sich die Cup-Version übrigens problemlos auf R2-Standard aufrüsten.

[tommeke_B]

Autonews Magazine » WRC » La Ford Fiesta R5 en janvier et la Peugeot 208 R5 en juillet (http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blog/?p=27501) - Fiesta R5 will be homologated first, 208 R5 halfway the year but I don't think we'll see any in competition next year...

[stefanvv]

Autonews Magazine » WRC » La Ford Fiesta R5 en janvier et la Peugeot 208 R5 en juillet (http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blog/?p=27501) - Fiesta R5 will be homologated first, 208 R5 halfway the year but I don't think we'll see any in competition next year...

Why not?

[noel157]

I'm sure we will see the Fiesta, after all, Papa Wilson likes (and needs) to sell cars......
And Peugeot need a return on their investment even if it's halfway through the season.

[tommeke_B]

Why not?
The article says first cars will be delivered at the end of 2013. Last ERC event is the 2nd weekend of november... Maybe Peugeot wants to let them debut there? Maybe they want to wait? We'll see... :)

[stefanvv]

The article says first cars will be delivered at the end of 2013. Last ERC event is the 2nd weekend of november... Maybe Peugeot wants to let them debut there? Maybe they want to wait? We'll see... :)

I suppose at least M-Sport will make some test Rallies earlier than that... but we'll see indeed

[PLuto]

M-Sport is planning to have first start with the car at the end of spring, Peugeot is expected at the end of summer or during autumn...

[polo10]

And skoda?

[PLuto]

During 2013 I think only tests...

[Mirek]

Fabia III will be unveiled in March 2014 I suppose. Sure we can't expect a rally car before that. Production of 2500 cars is mandatory prior the homologation.

[NaBUru38]

"Ab der Saison 2014 greift Stufe zwei des modularen Rallyeprogramms, bei dem der Adam gemäß FIA R2-Reglement zum Einsatz kommt. In der technischen Grundkonfiguration stimmt das Fahrzeug mit der Cup-Variante weitgehend überein, der 1,6-Liter-Turbomotor leistet in dieser Ausführung etwa 190 PS. Für Aufsteiger lässt sich die Adam Cup-Version auf R2-Standard aufrüsten"

For what I understand from this (with google translate) is that the car will have a nearby R2 configuration for 2013, with the 1.6l atmospheric engine with 145bhp, and a R2 configuration for 2014 with a turbocharged 1.6l engine with 190bhp!!!
The Adam Cup car will have 190PS. The Cup car isn't R2.

[darkstar]

In der technischen Grundkonfiguration stimmt das Fahrzeug mit der Cup-Variante weitgehend überein, der 1,6-Liter-Turbomotor leistet in dieser Ausführung etwa 190 PS.

this sentence is written pretty strange. it says: the groundsetup is identically with the cup version, the 1.6 liter turboengine in this configuration has 190hp. but its not clear if "this configuration" referrs to r2 version or to cup configuration. you could also think now that the cup version will have 190hp. you only understand it correctly if you read the whole article. anyhow it doesnt make sense, the cup version will be a naturally aspiratet 1.6 liter engine with around 140hp and the article further says that the r2 car will have 190hp from a 1.6 liter turbo engine.

but it´s great to see opel back, even though i dont like that adam, car looks like fiat500 and adam is a strange name for a car. but who cares ;) best thing is that there will be a nice cup in germany wich could bring up some talent, they have 100.000 euro pricemoney and the perspective to get into a bigger car, corsa r3 and corsa r5 that will come up later. opel defenetly has got a better image in my eyes already yet!

[Mirek]

The name Adam is referring to the company founder Adam Opel (1837-1895) ;)

[darkstar]

yes i know, thats why it sounds bit weird, especially for germans. because adam is a pretty oldschool name in germany(don´t know if it´s different in other countries) and also adam and eva(it´s prett likely that this is the names origin) come to my mind. i dont like it...

it´s like when you name your daughter mercedes, everyone would think of the car brand even though it had been a regular girlsname before. that´s where the name mercedes benz comes from btw.

[Allyc85]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKV35vmNH80&feature=g-u

[vino_93]

what about the new Sub R4 driving by Arai in Hokkaido ? Will SUbaru enter this car in APRC / ERC next year ? Is the car available to be bought ?

[Georgi]

what about the new Sub R4 driving by Arai in Hokkaido ? Will SUbaru enter this car in APRC / ERC next year ? Is the car available to be bought ?

Yes, this will be interesting to know!
Subaru seems to be still looking for some European competition.
Last year it was great to see Arai and specially Nikara.
The Finn showed great potential !

[GF]

Corsa R5 - I like the sound of that. Maybe RML could develop it as they have 1.6 turbo engine to use with any GM manufacturer (i.e. their WTCC engine can be used in GM cars other than Chevrolets). Or is the GRE ineligible in the R5 class but still eligible for RRC spec cars?

They already work on it. One of the S2000 Corsa changes heart now for test purposes.

I hope to see them back soon in the field.

[navtheace]

Any update on any of the R cars for January?

[dimviii]

Colin Clark ‏@voiceofrally (https://twitter.com/voiceofrally)
@a_lost_irishman (https://twitter.com/a_lost_irishman) @Andrew_Coley (https://twitter.com/Andrew_Coley) M-Sport reckon a fully rally prepared R5 will cost between £200k and £250k

[A FONDO]

Cars become simpler and simpler, prices remain the same. Well done FIA.

[Sulland]

Colin Clark ‏@voiceofrally (https://twitter.com/voiceofrally)
@a_lost_irishman (https://twitter.com/a_lost_irishman) @Andrew_Coley (https://twitter.com/Andrew_Coley) M-Sport reckon a fully rally prepared R5 will cost between £200k and £250k


Thats some way off the 100-150 000 euro FIA stated a while back.....
S2000 history repeats itself unfortunatly.
Must be possible to regulate this better for FIA. Now they are just sitting ducks, and the manufacturers dictate!

[RS]

Still cheaper than S2000, at the moment.

[navtheace]

I don't think the top three categories of the WRC will survive.

World Rally Car - top of the tree 33mm
Regional Rally Car / S2000 - Reduced spec strangled with 30mm
R5 - Lower cost concept that gets 32mm

Not like how GpA was when there was just one top end category of A8 that was eligible for any rally/championship.

Lets see how 2013 pans out with RRC and R5

[tommeke_B]

Thats some way off the 100-150 000 euro FIA stated a while back.....
S2000 history repeats itself unfortunatly.
Must be possible to regulate this better for FIA. Now they are just sitting ducks, and the manufacturers dictate!

FIA stated 180K euros for kit... So when you want an assembled car... ;)

[liposh]

The price of R5 will be quite high and very near to price of std S2000, but all the maintenance costs etc. will be lower, so at least one good step. Everything counts. I really don´t want to go to rally and see 2WD R3T cars as top category. 4wd cars are much more...spectacular.

[PLuto]

R5 will be on same price like new atmospheric S2000 car. S2000 1,6T is more expensive for buy. But we will see how it will be with costs...

[Sulland]

FIA stated 180K euros for kit... So when you want an assembled car... ;)


Correct, but when the R5/R4T discussion started, the plan was to end at around 100K Euro, not sure if that was kit or ready to drive, but think they meant the latter.

[Mirek]

... and since the very beginning it was several times pointed out that something like that is pure utopia :)

[dimviii]

... and since the very beginning it was several times pointed out that something like that is pure utopia :)

+1
they just wanted to make wrc more interesting to manufacturers due to plenty 1,6 turbo road versions.

[liposh]

Correct, but when the R5/R4T discussion started, the plan was to end at around 100K Euro, not sure if that was kit or ready to drive, but think they meant the latter.
Few years ago I ´ve heard that Pech´s Lancer Evo 9 N4 price was 125 000 Eur. And we are talking about N4, so before it was rebuilt to R4. But I don´t remember the source. Maybe it was some kind of newspaper with articles like "Local boy´s leg cought in a trap. He used saw but cut off wrong leg" :D

[Sulland]

... and since the very beginning it was several times pointed out that something like that is pure utopia :)

Ye ye, and I hate it when you again are right Mirek!! :mad: :p

[skarderud]

as usual is new rules good buisness for the producers.
when you hear the prices on some parts, it insane and out of every proposion.

[noel157]

Bruno Famin on 208 R2 and R5 plans:

iRally | The free independent Rally App for the iPhone, iPad and Android (http://irallylive.com/ir_vidrss.htm?00000487)

iRally | The free independent Rally App for the iPhone, iPad and Android (http://irallylive.com/ir_news.htm?00002583)

iRally | The free independent Rally App for the iPhone, iPad and Android (http://irallylive.com/ir_news.htm?00002584)

[muratgunarslan]

Citroen DS3 R1 has only tarmac kit? no gravel kit?

[navtheace]

Any latest news fro all the R groups?

What will happen to R4? Will they allow any road car with 4WD 1.6 turbo to be homologated into it?

Mini Countryman/Paceman would make an ideal R4 car.

R5 is nearly ready by some works teams, will VW be having an R5 car?

[stefanvv]

will VW be having an R5 car?

I don't think so, it would be Skoda

[Mirek]

What will happen to R4? Will they allow any road car with 4WD 1.6 turbo to be homologated into it?

That is possible already now but nobody is interested.

[Jack4688`]

Plus R4 is not for 1.6 turbos right?

[Mirek]

Wrong :) The rules don't say You must use maximum allowed engine capacity. If You have stock 4x4 car with 1.6T engine it can be homologated either in N4 or R4 class but of course it will have a handicap against 2.0T Lancers and Imprezas.

[Jack4688`]

Ahh, Just been going under the assumptionthey had to be 2.0 :D Especially as the 2.5 litre european market WRXs weren't used for the base car. But then 2.5 would be ridiculous!

[TyPat107]

Ahh, Just been going under the assumptionthey had to be 2.0 :D Especially as the 2.5 litre european market WRXs weren't used for the base car. But then 2.5 would be ridiculous!

we allow up to 2.5 engines (my car uses a 2.2 subaru engine) here and there is a slight advantage with torque but because of the restrictor they make the same power as smaller engines. Larger engines just choke themselves at a lower rpm than a smaller engine.

[navtheace]

We could see a Mini Paceman become an R4 car, who knows?

What the FIA could do is to encourage the 1.6 turbo 4WD cars in like the Countryman/Paceman, then to stop any new homologations of 2 litre cars.

Then by allowing the 1.6 to have a lower minimum weight, the 1.6 cars in R4 become as fast.

All depends on how the FIA decide to do it, if they decide to do anything at all.

As rumour has is that R5 will become the top category of the WRC in time, and will they then want to keep R4 as the next category down?

1.6 turbo 4WD coming from Subaru ?
http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2011/7/20/2014-Subaru-WRX-and-Impreza-Together-No-More-7703925/

[Mirek]

We could see a Mini Paceman become an R4 car, who knows?

I don't think so. It's 4x4 system is nowhere near the Impreza or Lancer. It would be much slower and the engine would not be the reason.


What the FIA could do is to encourage the 1.6 turbo 4WD cars in like the Countryman/Paceman, then to stop any new homologations of 2 litre cars.

You are contradicting Your previous posts. We have only two manufacturers interested in Gr.N 4x4 cars and to encourage more interest You want to throw away those only two. Twisted logic, isn't it?


Then by allowing the 1.6 to have a lower minimum weight, the 1.6 cars in R4 become as fast.

Your point of view is extremely simplified. The car is not solely an engine on wheels. What makes Subaru and Mitsubishi so strong is decades of expensive development of the whole system starting from transmission, differentials, suspension and of course also the engine. Fact is that no other manufacturers produce similar 4x4 cars and they will not produce them in the future simply because it is hell expensive to invest in such development and there is not enough buyers in the world to pay that. Believe it or not to build a rally car from scratch in few pieces doesn't cost manufacturers billions like to make a competitive stock car. Leaving aside all other problems like corporate fuel consumption, emission standards etc.


As rumour has is that R5 will become the top category of the WRC in time, and will they then want to keep R4 as the next category down?

Definitely not. Anyway there were already years with gr.N cars as a top category (since 2005 to coming of S2000). I'm glad they are gone as those were the worst years of our rallying with no interest from anybody.

[Fri]

I'm just reading a press release from Hungarian Eurosol Team, and they say Honda Europe and JAS wants to build an R5 car...

[EightGear]

Confirmation (did we already have that?) of Citroen that they are building an R5 DS3.

Citroën: R5 statt RRC*:: rallye-magazin.de (http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/wm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2013/01/21/citroen-r5-statt-rrc/index.html)

First tests scheduled for April, first planned rally is Rallye de France.

[HaCo]

I'm just reading a press release from Hungarian Eurosol Team, and they say Honda Europe and JAS wants to build an R5 car...

Now THAT would be GREAT!

Verstuurd van mijn ARCHOS 80G9 met Tapatalk

[Mirek]

Confirmation (did we already have that?) of Citroen that they are building an R5 DS3.

Citroën: R5 statt RRC*:: rallye-magazin.de (http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/wm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2013/01/21/citroen-r5-statt-rrc/index.html)

First tests scheduled for April, first planned rally is Rallye de France.

Matton said that some half a year a go in some interview. Don't remember where it was.

[navtheace]

M Sport with their R5 Fiesta Testing gets underway for Ford Fiesta R5 (http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/news/1317-testing-gets-underway-for-ford-fiesta-r5)

Wont be long till these R5 cars come to the stages and look no different to what the current WRC and RRC cars perform like.

[HaCo]

It would be nice if a site would list up all the existing R-classes modeles. This would be a nice place to do this: Group R - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_R)

It's hard to see a difference between R1/R2 of the same car. It would be nice if every car has a nice sticker with its car class in it.

[Mirek]

Performance-wise and sound-wise the difference between R1 and R2 cars is clear. You don't need to be such an experience spectator to see that one is basically a stock car and the other a much more advanced race machine.

[Sulland]

It would be nice if a site would list up all the existing R-classes modeles. This would be a nice place to do this: Group R - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_R)

It's hard to see a difference between R1/R2 of the same car. It would be nice if every car has a nice sticker with its car class in it.

you will hear the difference a mile away! Even my mother would understand the difference!

[SubaruNorway]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcpwiPHzm-4

They really have to make the R5 Fiesta a bit louder in my opinion.

[Jack4688`]

Louder than the R3Ts and N/R4s so that's loud enough for me!

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I'm just reading a press release from Hungarian Eurosol Team, and they say Honda Europe and JAS wants to build an R5 car...
A few months ago, Honda spoke of the idea of returning to Formula 1 as an engine supplier when the new engine regulations come into effect in 2014, and that any further motorsport programmes would depend on the success of the Civic being run in the World Touring Car Championship by JAS; ie, they won't expand until they feel the Civic is a success (and it does look pretty strong in the hands of Gabriele Tarquini). It's since been suggested that they will return to Formula 1 in 2015. That's going to be an expensive proposition, so while an R5 Civic would be nice, I don't think it will be a priority any time soon.

[Xsara Fan]

Our team 'ALM RUSSIA' has built Volkswagen Polo R2. Take a look here (photos, specification) > (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://www.almrally.ru/news-command/info/10249/#listcomment)

[Mirek]

Finally :)

[Allyc85]

Nice video of the R5 Fiesta on the Malcolm Wilson Stages.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcpwiPHzm-4

[catty]

Our team 'ALM RUSSIA' has built Volkswagen Polo R2. Take a look here (photos, specification) > (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://www.almrally.ru/news-command/info/10249/#listcomment)
Very nice.
I guess the car is not FIA homologated?
Does it run an air filter in the carbon airbox?

[navtheace]

The new Polo R (road car) is 1.6 turbo ?

This could mean an R3T category rally car is coming soon?

[Mirek]

Polo R is equipped with 2.0 TSI engine, Polo R WRC uses purpose built "global engine" not coming from stock production.

Anyway according to the new rules there is no problem to build R3 car with engine from another car of the same carmaker but still I would bet VW doesn't plan R3T car, at least not in close future.

[OldF]

As VW has said that they don’t even make a RRC car at this moment. Focus on WRC and it’s looking very promising.

[navtheace]

So how is the new R5 category coming along ? M Sport have had some outings in their Fiesta R5.

What is the outlook by the FIA for the next few years? Will it still be WRC RRC R5 or will WRC/RRC be phased out when R5 is established?

[Vaggelis27]

Test Kris Meeke Citroen DS3 HD - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2b2c4Wbc-A)

[Doon]

Test Kris Meeke Citroen DS3 HD - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2b2c4Wbc-A)

Is this an R3 car with an R5 engine? Sure it's FWD and it doesn't look as meaty as the Fiesta R5.

[Mirek]

Exactly. The engine of R5 is very similar to R3T (I don't know exact difference in rules besides much bigger restrictor but the basis is absolutely same).

[noel157]

So how is the new R5 category coming along ? M Sport have had some outings in their Fiesta R5.

What is the outlook by the FIA for the next few years? Will it still be WRC RRC R5 or will WRC/RRC be phased out when R5 is established?

I think current WRC will be phased out 2016 or so and replaced with R5. Not sure RRC but imagine it will go too.

[Jack4688`]

I think current WRC will be phased out 2016 or so and replaced with R5. Not sure RRC but imagine it will go too.

What is your source for this?

[Mirek]

I really hope it will not happen. Full WRC teams commitment into R5 will only grow prices sky high.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I really hope it will not happen. Full WRC teams commitment into R5 will only grow prices sky high.
But isn't the whole idea behind Group R driven by the FIA fixing the price for every category?

[Mirek]

But isn't the whole idea behind Group R driven by the FIA fixing the price for every category?

Doesn't matter what was the idea, it will never work unless there are no big players directly involved in the competition. It can work in feeder classes but never in top category.

[Hazza555)]

What is your source for this?

He doesn't need a source. He stating his opinion, not a fact. "I think..., but imagine..."

I tend to agree with him I can see R5 becoming the next top flight category or the basis of. Make manufacturers homologate a R5 car and then allow a spec upgrade from R5 to WRC, basically bigger restrictor and more wing :) . So sort of the opposite way round to RRC/1.6T S2000. And the spec upgrade from R5 to WRC should be available to all, with a price cap. The move to production based engines is vital I believe. The next evolution of the Fiesta WRC could quite easily be an R5 with 300 horses, some aero and 6 speed 'box.

If this was to happen there would be huge number of potential manufacturers and cars available already with such interest in the R5 category, probably much to the dismay of VW.

[Mirek]

He doesn't need a source. He stating his opinion, not a fact. "I think..., but imagine..."

I tend to agree with him I can see R5 becoming the next top flight category or the basis of. Make manufacturers homologate a R5 car and then allow a spec upgrade from R5 to WRC, basically bigger restrictor and more wing :) . So sort of the opposite way round to RRC/1.6T S2000. And the spec upgrade from R5 to WRC should be available to all, with a price cap. The move to production based engines is vital I believe. The next evolution of the Fiesta WRC could quite easily be an R5 with 300 horses, some aero and 6 speed 'box.

If this was to happen there would be huge number of potential manufacturers and cars available already with such interest in the R5 category, probably much to the dismay of VW.

You suggest almost same thing what was tried with RRC/WRC and didn't proved itself as healthy solution. It didn't help bring cost of WRC down but helped bring cost of RRC up on WRC elevel. There is no need to repeat same mistakes.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Doesn't matter what was the idea, it will never work unless there are no big players directly involved in the competition. It can work in feeder classes but never in top category.
My understanding is that manufacturers will build cars to Group R specifications, and make them available at a fixed price that is determined by the FIA. That way, competitive cars will be available at relatively low prices, theoretically opening the sport up to more competition. Manufacturers could support selected teams so that they have a stake in what is happening, but the idea is to keep costs down.

[TyPat107]

But wasn't that the same idea for S2000 cars and for RRC cars as well? No one stuck to the fixed price.

[Mirek]

Even for current WRC cars there are limits of prices, even for particular components...

[navtheace]

The R5 cars will just become like the current WRC's. They will look no different and speed wise be the same to the spectator.

They will become as expensive as the current WRC's and the biggest problem will be no self build possible from a road car. ie you can only buy from the manufacturers approved motorsport company if it is not the manufacturer themselves.

What the FIA need to do is bring the top end cars to road car bodywork and driven wheels. That will take a chunk out of the cost of the cars for starters.

[tommeke_B]

I don't believe R5 will become as expensive as the Current WRC's, at least if FIA keeps the rules they made now. Talking about time before revision etc. For S2000 they started making engines that lasted just one rally... Also there are more manufacturers I think (Ford, Peugeot, Skoda, Citroën, Opel, any others?), so there should be some competition, not just to have the fastest car, but also to sell some number (and keep the price on a realistic number) of cars.

[wrc1600]

I don't believe R5 will become as expensive as the Current WRC's, at least if FIA keeps the rules they made now. Talking about time before revision etc. For S2000 they started making engines that lasted just one rally... Also there are more manufacturers I think (Ford, Peugeot, Skoda, Citroën, Opel, any others?), so there should be some competition, not just to have the fastest car, but also to sell some number (and keep the price on a realistic number) of cars.

I think that might be the truth, I heard form many "rally" people that even current WRC cars are cheapier than 2.0 ones it is still more expensive to run them. I mean a team needs to have much bigger budget for a season than they used to.

[vino_93]

I just look at homologation by FIA, and see a new thing on engine for the Corsa S2000...
whereas nothing was homologated on the car since 2009.
Why, and what could be it ?

[vino_93]

I just look at homologation by FIA, and see a new thing on engine for the Corsa S2000...
whereas nothing was homologated on the car since 2009.
Why, and what could be it ?
And I just discover that Toyota has homologated a Vitz R1B last year (it is different car from the new runned in APRC).

[Vaggelis27]

Breen test today
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/968955_10151517314918952_664412064_n.jpg

[noel157]

Not long to go until Ypres.

[MartijnS]

Breen 208 R5 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tyiPoKbwPs)

[pantealex]

And I just discover that Toyota has homologated a Vitz R1B last year (it is different car from the new runned in APRC).

I think Vitz is same car as Yaris

[dimviii]

I think Vitz is same car as Yaris

yep

[vino_93]

I think Vitz is same car as Yaris
It's the same model, but the Vitz is a R1B, homologated mid 2012, whereas the Yaris is a R1A, homologated january 2013 ;)

[Sulland]

Fabia RRC testing
iRally | The free independent Rally App for the iPhone, iPad and Android (http://irallylive.com/ir_news.htm?00004241)

[Jack4688`]

I thought that S2000 and by extension RRC fall under Group A and that no new Group A homologations were permitted after 1st January 2013?

[PLuto]

Fabia RRC testing
iRally | The free independent Rally App for the iPhone, iPad and Android (http://irallylive.com/ir_news.htm?00004241)

It was written in different thread, this info is not correct. This is turboengine which will be used in Fabia R5. Article in czech language with more correct info you can find here (Autosport (http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=15331)), its english summary I wrote to "news" thread here.

[Vaggelis27]

TEST DAYS Peugeot 208 T16 R5 By Craig BREEN SouthFrance PURE SOUND HD - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfWcBPd9-IA)

[navtheace]

TEST DAYS Peugeot 208 T16 R5 By Craig BREEN SouthFrance PURE SOUND HD - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfWcBPd9-IA)

Confirms what will happen, as in the car will look no different to the current WRC and RRC ones to the average spectator.

FIA will probably phase out WRC/RRC and then R5 will become the top category. They could easily then allow 33mm instead of the current 32mm for R5 and then it is back to a 'special' build rally car (custom bodywork and 4WD system, both not on the road car) that one can only buy from the manufacturer (or manufacturers agent).

[eib1]

Estonians Karl Kruuda and Timmu Kõrge were testing Fiesta R5 today 3155

[GF]

It's the same model, but the Vitz is a R1B, homologated mid 2012, whereas the Yaris is a R1A, homologated january 2013 ;)

Not only the engine is different (1.3l / 1.5l) but also the chassis (3d / 5d).

[kiil]

I just look at homologation by FIA, and see a new thing on engine for the Corsa S2000...
whereas nothing was homologated on the car since 2009.
Why, and what could be it ?

A danish team is now running a Corsa S2000 and i know they have been trying to get some engine parts homologated for it, seems like they have succeded.

[Andre Oliveira]

Fiesta R200

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMf6cn6CcAAqclX.jpg (https://twitter.com/fernandoalbes/media/grid)

[Mirek]

What is that?

[pucky54]

What is that?

R2 with 200 bhp??? ;)

[TheFlyingTuga]

It seems that "that" is the new Fiesta R2...let's call it Evo

[Mirek]

Thanks to all. Finally "proper" R2 from M-Sport :)

[Racing Ka]

Thanks to all. Finally "proper" R2 from M-Sport :)

Wait and see how "proper" it is...
http://t.co/0i8jwDHjRE

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I have to say I'm impressed. They managed to make the R5 Fiesta look just like a Fiesta.