Japanese Grand Prix 2009

[gloomyDAY]

I'm so thrilled to see Suzuka back on the calendar!

The news this coming weekend should keep us very busy all the way through the entire off-season. Alonso to Ferrari, Kimi to McLaren, Kubica to Renault, F1 teams dropping out, other teams joining to circus, and much more.

Predictions?
BMW at the top step.

[harsha]

that said,that seems to be a track where the Brawn might struggle with the tyre heating issues....

[AndyL]

Yes it is great to see it back on the calendar isn't it. And also good to have an Asian race at the proper time of day - somehow it adds a little bit to the excitement to have to get up at 6am UK time for the race :)
My predictions are:
1. It will be like a timewarp back to the start of the season, Vettel vs Button for the win (on the basis that the fast corners should favour Red Bull, and Button has gone well at Suzuka in past years)
2. The balance on my online betting account will be lower after the race than it is now (on the basis that my predictions have been mostly terrible this year)

Edit: actually I'll go for Webber vs Button rather than Vettel. Good point about Vettel not having been there before. Whereas Webber has had decent results there.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Theres quite a few drivers who haven't driven an F1 car there before in anger...

Hamilton, Alguersuari, Buemi, Kovalainen, Vettel (only as BMW test driver), Sutil, Kakajima, and Grosjean...

Should be interesting and I would expect a first corner incident, like the good old days :)

it will be interesting to see how hamilton gets on, and the mclaren at a circuit with lots of high speed conrers, which the macca evidently doesnt like. Im going for a kimi win, ferrari seem to be good on the high-speed-corner tracks like spa, and Mr Raikkonen will be in his element, he seems to do well at Suzuka and he will have warm memories of that fantastic win in 2005.

One hopes for another great race like 2005, i think it is very unpredictable this one, should be interesting!

[Sonic]

Some predictions of rain on friday and sat. How topsy turvy would the race be if all those newbies mentioned got zero dry running before race day? :eek:

[ioan]

Some predictions of rain on friday and sat. How topsy turvy would the race be if all those newbies mentioned got zero dry running before race day? :eek:

If they do well in the wet they can only do better in the dry.

[Sonic]

If they do well in the wet they can only do better in the dry.

I have no doubt but they'd be eaten alive in the first few laps whilst they learnt.

Can't wait either way.

[F1boat]

I have a good feeling about Japan. I keep my fingers crossed for Jenson!

[truefan72]

can't wait to see the cars at suzuka again

i heard they have made some minor adjustments and improvements

[Saint Devote]

This is one of Jenson's absolute favorite circuits and he considers the Japanese Grand Prix as one of his THREE home races - the others being Britain and Monaco.

Suzuka is also a new "traditional" track in my view. It has held 20 grands prix and rivals the Canadian for its popularity and is a real drivers circuit.

For all long time Jenson supporters like myself the focus is one thing at Suzika 2009: try and score FIVE more points than Rubens.

Of course it will not be easy but doing so will clinch the world championship.

This has been a super year for Jens. It has been magic for his loyal supporters. Truly it has been a long time that I enjoyed a season as much as this one for other reasons as well.

Over the winter it was thought that Jenson's f1 career was over and the disappointment and frustration that a driver of such immense ability would never sit in a car where could demonstrate just what he was capable of brought an immense view that a great injustice had been done.

Then along came Mercedes' High Performance Engine unit and because it was Ross they saved the day. All Jenson fans have to have a warm feeling towards the people at the Mercedes Engine unit. Their decision was based on trust and a good idea that a team led by Ross with the people many being long time employees and drivers like Jenson and Rubens had to be something special.

I started the season skeptical of Rubens - at this point he has gained my respect and I was indeed wrong about him.

Long time supporters of Jenson support him not only because we saw an exciting driver back so many years ago, but because he has become the epitome of what a formula 1 driver ought to be like.

Personable, incredibly intelligent on the track, eloquent and someone that is happy to see his fans and takes an interest in them.

His story is incredible and he, just like Damon did and Nigel demonstrates determination and persistence that finally, together with their sublime skill, wins the day.

Pardon my Jenson Ad, but this could be an incredible weekend - as Jenson fans we are not used to him even being in a good car never mind winning grand prix races let alone a world title!!!

[Saint Devote]

Of the drivers most likely to win - Alonso, Raikkonen and Barrichello have all won at Suzuka before - 2006, 2005, 2003.

Jenson qualified 2nd in 2005 and while he led briefly, at his first fuel stop there was a delay with a recalcitrant fuel flap - after the second stop his handling began to deterioate and he was very disappointed to finish 5th.

[Saint Devote]

Some predictions of rain on friday and sat. How topsy turvy would the race be if all those newbies mentioned got zero dry running before race day? :eek:

Qualifying is forecast to be dry as well as grand prix day :D

Although of course temperatures will be relatively low.

[airshifter]

it will be interesting to see how hamilton gets on, and the mclaren at a circuit with lots of high speed conrers, which the macca evidently doesnt like. Im going for a kimi win, ferrari seem to be good on the high-speed-corner tracks like spa, and Mr Raikkonen will be in his element, he seems to do well at Suzuka and he will have warm memories of that fantastic win in 2005.

One hopes for another great race like 2005, i think it is very unpredictable this one, should be interesting!

I see Kimi and Rubens on the podium, with a few possible wild cards that may make it. It wouldn't surprise me to see Vettel back on top form as well.

It will great to see the cars once again at Suzuka!

[DexDexter]

Of the drivers most likely to win - Alonso, Raikkonen and Barrichello have all won at Suzuka before - 2006, 2005, 2003.

Jenson qualified 2nd in 2005 and while he led briefly, at his first fuel stop there was a delay with a recalcitrant fuel flap - after the second stop his handling began to deterioate and he was very disappointed to finish 5th.

I don't think Kimi has any chance to win the race, no matter what the weather is. They've fallen behind too much, for example, BMW's new updates have put them in front of Ferrari.

[Saint Devote]

I don't think Kimi has any chance to win the race, no matter what the weather is. They've fallen behind too much, for example, BMW's new updates have put them in front of Ferrari.

Kimi has always gone well at Suzuka and always improves his position. Remember one of his best races in 2005 where he won from 17th position :D

In uncertain conditions like at Spa he is above average. Sure you are right, the car could be a real problem but these days it is not improbable that the car improves during a race. It has happened several times to Jenson this year.

[ArrowsFA1]

After seeing James Hunt and Damon Hill win their WDC in Japan, it would be somewhat appropriate if JB sealed the deal this weekend.

[Mark]

After seeing James Hunt and Damon Hill win their WDC in Japan, it would be somewhat appropriate if JB sealed the deal this weekend.

As I said to Saint Devote having only just realised that Button can win the championship this weekend in the event he extends his lead by 5 points or more.

[Garry Walker]

This is one of Jenson's absolute favorite circuits and he considers the Japanese Grand Prix as one of his THREE home races - the others being Britain and Monaco.

Suzuka is also a new "traditional" track in my view. It has held 20 grands prix and rivals the Canadian for its popularity and is a real drivers circuit.

For all long time Jenson supporters like myself the focus is one thing at Suzika 2009: try and score FIVE more points than Rubens.

Of course it will not be easy but doing so will clinch the world championship.

This has been a super year for Jens. It has been magic for his loyal supporters. Truly it has been a long time that I enjoyed a season as much as this one for other reasons as well.

Over the winter it was thought that Jenson's f1 career was over and the disappointment and frustration that a driver of such immense ability would never sit in a car where could demonstrate just what he was capable of brought an immense view that a great injustice had been done.

Then along came Mercedes' High Performance Engine unit and because it was Ross they saved the day. All Jenson fans have to have a warm feeling towards the people at the Mercedes Engine unit. Their decision was based on trust and a good idea that a team led by Ross with the people many being long time employees and drivers like Jenson and Rubens had to be something special.

I started the season skeptical of Rubens - at this point he has gained my respect and I was indeed wrong about him.

Long time supporters of Jenson support him not only because we saw an exciting driver back so many years ago, but because he has become the epitome of what a formula 1 driver ought to be like.

Personable, incredibly intelligent on the track, eloquent and someone that is happy to see his fans and takes an interest in them.

His story is incredible and he, just like Damon did and Nigel demonstrates determination and persistence that finally, together with their sublime skill, wins the day.

Pardon my Jenson Ad, but this could be an incredible weekend - as Jenson fans we are not used to him even being in a good car never mind winning grand prix races let alone a world title!!!

Do you need a tissue?

[Knock-on]

Do you need a tissue?

<snigger>

[F1boat]

After seeing James Hunt and Damon Hill win their WDC in Japan, it would be somewhat appropriate if JB sealed the deal this weekend.
Fingers crossed!

[jens]

In a way it's kinda fun that while I remember Saint Devote criticising people for supporting (or actually defending) some drivers for sentimentality reasons, it has turned out that SD himself is a rather sentimental person - well, at least towards Button.

[Steve2009]

Suzuka has had a major face-lift since the last F1 Race!
http://forum.planet-f1.com/index.php?t=msg&th=72596&start=0&
Does anyone know if they have altered the course at all?

[Saint Devote]

Do you need a tissue?

:D Is it embossed with the Jenson seal of approval?

[gloomyDAY]

:D Is it embossed with the Jenson seal of approval?No, but I bet you would lick it if Bunsen rubbed his sac on it.

[Saint Devote]

After seeing James Hunt and Damon Hill win their WDC in Japan, it would be somewhat appropriate if JB sealed the deal this weekend.

:D :D Absolutely!

[Saint Devote]

In a way it's kinda fun that while I remember Saint Devote criticising people for supporting (or actually defending) some drivers for sentimentality reasons, it has turned out that SD himself is a rather sentimental person - well, at least towards Button.

;) My point regarding sentimentality is that a driver in f1 should not be retained if sentimentality is the reason.

But gaining great satisfaction and pleasure from seeing a driver worthy of his place in f1, especially a driver that has shown traditional British strength of character throughout his years in uncompetitive machinery, as Jenson has, is a virtuous emotion :D

[penagate]

Suzuka has had a major face-lift since the last F1 Race!
http://forum.planet-f1.com/index.php?t=msg&th=72596&start=0&
Does anyone know if they have altered the course at all?
No changes were made to the track layout. Despite the major upgrade of facilities, resurfacing, and the new trackside furniture, its character fortunately appears to have been retained.

[ShiftingGears]

Too bad that all the run-off is paved. I liked seeing the drivers going fully committed into Turn 1 and the Esses knowing that if they screwed it up, their race was over. Or championship, in the case of Mansell in 1991.

They should find some runoff that doesn't reward failure as much as paved run-off does.

[F1boat]

;) My point regarding sentimentality is that a driver in f1 should not be retained if sentimentality is the reason.

But gaining great satisfaction and pleasure from seeing a driver worthy of his place in f1, especially a driver that has shown traditional British strength of character throughout his years in uncompetitive machinery, as Jenson has, is a virtuous emotion :D

Don't count your chickens yet, St. Patience...

[penagate]

Too bad that all the run-off is paved.


Having looked at the photos posted in that link above, I don't think all of it is paved...

Also, most of the paving is preceded by astro-turf, which doesn't exactly reward failure. It is less punishing, but safer too.

[Dave B]

With varying predictions of rain this weekend, you might find this link useful during the sessions:
http://www.jma.go.jp/en/radnowc/index.html?areaCode=211

You can locate Suzuka from this Google Map:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Suzuka,+Japan&om=1&ie=UTF8&ll=34.809293,136.711121&spn=1.09821,2.458191&z=9&iwloc=A

[Dave B]

Wouldn't it be great if Google Maps was live? :D

[Dave B]

Right. I think this is correct but could someone please double-check?



Button will be champion if...

* He finishes 1st, and Barrichello finishes lower than 3rd.
* He finishes 2nd, and Barrichello finishes lower than 5th.
* He finishes 3rd, and Barrichello finishes lower than 7th.
* He finishes 4th, and Barrichello does not score.

Brawn will be constructors' champions if they score 13 or more.

[F1boat]

For the WDC it seems absolutely right, for the WCC I don't know really. I think that if they don't lose too much on Red Bull, it will be championship, but how much, I don't know.

[AndyL]

For the WCC, another 12 points over the rest of the season would do it for Brawn I reckon.
And for this weekend, Red Bull need to score 7 points more than Brawn to keep it alive for another race.

Oh and (just for fun) for Vettel to stay in the hunt for the WDC, he needs to score 6 more than Button :)

[Knock-on]

Right. I think this is correct but could someone please double-check?



Button will be champion if...

* He finishes 1st, and Barrichello finishes lower than 3rd.
* He finishes 2nd, and Barrichello finishes lower than 5th.
* He finishes 3rd, and Barrichello finishes lower than 7th.
* He finishes 4th, and Barrichello does not score.

Brawn will be constructors' champions if they score 13 or more.

Brawn will be constructors' champions if they score 12 or more or if RB fail to score more than 7 points more than them I think.

[AndyL]

Brawn will be constructors' champions if they score 12 or more or if RB fail to score more than 7 points more than them I think.

You need to be faster on the calculator keys than that Knock-on :)

[Knock-on]

You need to be faster on the calculator keys than that Knock-on :)

Don't use one of them new fangled things. I don't even own an abacus :p

;)

[Dave B]

If I take two beans, and add two more beans, what does that make?

A very small casserole. :p

[SGWilko]

If I take two beans, and add two more beans, what does that make?

A very small casserole. :p

If I've got 5 apples in one hand, and 7 apples in the other, what have I got?.....

NB - What's the topic again? :D

[Dave B]

If I've got 5 apples in one hand, and 7 apples in the other, what have I got?.....

A surplus of iPods? :D

[truefan72]

first practice over.

Track looks nice, the only issue is the final chicane which seems a bit confusing. I bet you one driver will take the wrong chicane

[Steve2009]

Some picks of the new Suzuka
http://premium.f1-live.com/f1/photos-hires/2009/gpsuzuka/

[Steve2009]

http://premium.f1-live.com/f1/photos-hires/2009/gpsuzuka

[Dave B]

If you're going to post HUUUUGE pictures without resizing them, could you please just post the links instead? :)

[Steve2009]

If you're going to post HUUUUGE pictures without resizing them, could you please just post the links instead? :) Where's the fun in that ;)

[Dave B]

Well, this is fascinating isn't it? I'm so glad I got up early to watch this session! Thank goodness for Crofty and Ant.

[gloomyDAY]

I'm jealous of the Euro's.

There's no coverage here at all until tomorrow evening for qualifying.
Practice at Suzuka on a wet track and I'm missing out.


Some picks of the new Suzuka
http://premium.f1-live.com/f1/photos-hires/2009/gpsuzuka/

http://premium.f1-live.com/f1/photos-hires/2009/gpsuzuka/diapo_402.jpg

Dibs on the right! :D

[gloomyDAY]

I almost forgot to mention that Renault's new uniforms are awesome!

Renault are in desperate need of a better looking car.
They should really consider making their car fast and pretty.

[Robinho]

If I've got 5 apples in one hand, and 7 apples in the other, what have I got?.....

NB - What's the topic again? :D

Big Hands?

[Saint Devote]

Don't count your chickens yet, St. Patience...

:D We are having a LOUD heavy rock party to celebrate Jenson's WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP beginning at midnight Sat-Sun - I am in Mahattan - and watch the Japanese Grand Prix.

:D Lets go Jens!!!!

I am so excited - just never thought it would! After all these frustrating years for Jenson's Barmy Army!

[gloomyDAY]

Have fun in Manhattan!

Post pictures of drunk girls. lol

[Saint Devote]

I really do not like that chicane ajoining the entrance to the pits. Watching the VERY wet practice made me think everyone was at the foot of the very beautiful Mount Fuji!

Love Japan, the Japanese people and their food.

Sayonara!!

[Saint Devote]

Have fun in Manhattan!

Post pictures of drunk girls. lol

Thank you!

I seek domestic bliss - so displaying pictures of her friends would sort of complicate that :D

Actually I think they are all humoring me - I am the one that wants the party for Jenson's championship win, with a couple of acceptions - Ferrari lunatics [misguided people] - everyone will [to quote the late Gerry Marshall - "only be here for the beer"!]

I am surprised that you have dificulty watching practice - although the second practice session only became active with about 15 minutes to go.

Alonso was first out - Hamilton is really relishing both the conditions and the magnificent Suzuka track.

[Saint Devote]

I almost forgot to mention that Renault's new uniforms are awesome!

Renault are in desperate need of a better looking car.
They should really consider making their car fast and pretty.

Its that awful dorsal fin at the back, although I agree that the Renault is amongst the ugliest cars out there.

At least they are an improvement on the aero blighted cars from 2008.

[Dave B]

No Webber - his car is being replaced after binning it this morning. He won't be taking part in qualifying :(

[Steve2009]

:D We are having a LOUD heavy rock party to celebrate Jenson's WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP Nice Jinx bro :rolleyes:

[ozrevhead]

aww far out :( it couldnt happen to anyone else could it!

If they really 'wanted' to could they fix it - or myb Im become a cynic in my old age

[Dave B]

=If they really 'wanted' to could they fix it - or myb Im become a cynic in my old age
New tub: even if they can get it changed in time, it can't be scrutineered until the morning so if they even attempted to run it they'd get thrown out.

[ozrevhead]

New tub?

Anyway i was responding to post from another site who said it looked fixable

and besides ive become a cynic when it comes to F1

[donKey jote]

morning girls :)

[Dave B]

What an action-packed session, for all the wrong reasons. I cannot recall seeing that many offs and red flags in one qualifying session.

Question now is whether the Brawns - or anybody else - will be penalised for setting their quickest times while the yellow flags were out for Buemi's brush with the Armco.

Vettel on pole, both Brawns penalised: it would make for a good Championship battle. That shouldn't be part of the stewards' decision making process, but this if Formula One.

[F1boat]

Hopefully the FIA will not intervene. As I said in the chat, it is slightly suspicious that a Red Bull car crashed. If the FIA intervenes I will keep my fingers crossed for Vettel's retirement.

[truefan72]

Hopefully the FIA will not intervene. As I said in the chat, it is slightly suspicious that a Red Bull car crashed. If the FIA intervenes I will keep my fingers crossed for Vettel's retirement.

lol there is nothing suspicious about the Buemi crash that is absurd. Do you think he wanted to kill himself? come on man

[Dave B]

Suspicious in what way? Are you suggesting that Buemi "did a Piquet" in order to help Vettel? That's so far-fetched it barely deserves consideration :laugh:

[HenryM]

suspicious!? lol...
this is absurd...

and wow, 3 red flags, let's see what happen tomorrow!

[truefan72]

What an action-packed session, for all the wrong reasons. I cannot recall seeing that many offs and red flags in one qualifying session.

Question now is whether the Brawns - or anybody else - will be penalised for setting their quickest times while the yellow flags were out for Buemi's brush with the Armco.

Vettel on pole, both Brawns penalised: it would make for a good Championship battle. That shouldn't be part of the stewards' decision making process, but this if Formula One.
I think that the Brawns and kubica might/should be demoted after the Q2 fracas. Most clearly are the 2 brawns who were flat out thorugh that section and ended up in high spots. There is no way they can say they lifted as their previous timed laps would indicate that they wrre faster in that sector. I think Kubica also went past the accident without lifting. Trust me if it were macs, Hamilton would not have even been able to start Q3.

I'm glad that all 3 drivers are ok, especially Glock who will probably race tomorrow. What drama. I think there was a steering wheel failure on that car. The angle of the steering wheel was fully rotated, but the wheels were still straight. Funny how the toyota guy was so quick to say that telemetry says nothing was wrong with the car. What a joke. I guess I should not believe my eyes.

Vettel is light. Great job Trulli and Sutil. That Force India is great on this track. poor job fisi,

[Steve2009]

If you didn'T- see the post quali interview with Ross Brawn he said that Button is on 17 laps of fuel.
Later Rubens said they were on the same basic fuel strategy!
It will be interesting to see where everyone else is
BTW whats the chance of rain for the race!

[truefan72]

I think Kubica also went past the accident without lifting. Trust me if it were macs, Hamilton would not have even been able to start Q3.

correction I though I did see Kubica go past as well but obviously he lifted since his time was off, I think Alonso Rosberg and Kubica have a valid argument to make to the stewards

[DexDexter]

I think that the Brawns and kubica might/should be demoted after the Q2 fracas. Most clearly are the 2 brawns who were flat out thorugh that section and ended up in high spots. There is no way they can say they lifted as their previous timed laps would indicate that they wrre faster in that sector. I think Kubica also went past the accident without lifting. Trust me if it were macs, Hamilton would not have even been able to start Q3.


I agree, TV shots showed Barrichello went flat out through the debris and it looked quite dangerous. It could have resulted in a nasty accident, tire failure etc. Penalty, I say.

[ozrevhead]

I think that the Brawns and kubica might/should be demoted after the Q2 fracas. Most clearly are the 2 brawns who were flat out thorugh that section and ended up in high spots. There is no way they can say they lifted as their previous timed laps would indicate that they wrre faster in that sector. I think Kubica also went past the accident without lifting. Trust me if it were macs, Hamilton would not have even been able to start Q3.

SO tell me how that works with RB when that lap under yellow was his first flying lap?

[jens]

It's also notable that all drivers, who crashed, are basically Suzuka rookies (except Glock, who raced there back in 2004).

Six different teams in Top6, so another testimony to the tightness of competition this year.

Glad to see Q-master Trulli back in business after a "break" of one GP, although I'm afraid something will "happen" again like at Spa.

McLaren/Hamilton combo was a bit faster on an aero-circuit than I would have expected, so the team is nicely improving in all areas.

Webber is already having a "Trulli-2004" season himself. Impressive first half of the season culminating with the first win of his career only to fail to score anything in the second half due to various reasons... Hopefully Vettel will have an error-/problemfree race tomorrow for once after some time!

By the way, in quali duels this year Barrichello is now ahead of Button by 8-7. :)

[Steve2009]

correction I though I did see Kubica go past as well but obviously he lifted since his time was off, I think Alonso Rosberg and Kubica have a valid argument to make to the stewards

I could be wrong but I think the other alleged offender was Nick

[CaptainRaiden]

Hamilton leading at the first corner, the only KERS car in the top three. Vettel second, and maybe Kimi 3rd tomorrow. :D

[harsha]

too many cars crashing out.....

[F1boat]

Do you think he wanted to kill himself?
Nelson did, obviously. I will be very pissed if they punish Brawn for Buemi's idiocy OR malice.

[Integrale]

wtf dude

[kolvas]

Glocks off looked very strange, I watched it several times and it looks like it was some mechanical failure, the second just before he hits the tirewall he does a full right on the steeringwheel but I can´t see that the right wheel turns, the left turns just like it should.

[VkmSpouge]

Interesting qualifying and a little frustrating with all the cars being magnetically attracted to the walls. Sebastian Vettel looking exceedingly fast. Jarno Trulli maybe sacrificing his race to go light and get a good grid position. With the Toyota between Lewis Hamilton and Vettel it might mean that the KERS power will not be enough for Hamilton to take the lead by the first corner.

EDIT: Teaches me to read the news after watching my recording of qualifying. Button, Alonso, Sutil, Barrichello and Buemi all given 5 place grid penalties.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79191

[Valve Bounce]

Five drives have been given 5 place grid penalties: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79191

[VkmSpouge]

I think that now makes the grid:

Vettel
Trulli
Hamilton
Heidfeld
Raikkonen
Kovalainen
Rosberg
Kubica
Sutil
Barrichello
Glock
Button
Alguersuari
Fisichella
Buemi
Nakajima
Alonso
Grosjean
Liuzzi
Webber

[Valve Bounce]

Is there much overtaking at Fuji?

[truefan72]

Hopefully the FIA will not intervene. As I said in the chat, it is slightly suspicious that a Red Bull car crashed. If the FIA intervenes I will keep my fingers crossed for Vettel's retirement.


Brawn drivers among five penalised for yellow flag indiscretions
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/10/10040.html

well how about it?
"The first four drivers were penalised by Suzuka race stewards for failing to slow adequately when yellow flags were shown following Buemi's accident"


SO tell me how that works with RB when that lap under yellow was his first flying lap?

believe me I am rooting hard for Rubens to win the WDC but rules are rules. I think they knew they would be punished but it was better for them to get the time, get into Q3, get as high as they can then drop from there, rather than finish with no time ergo 14/15 grid spot. That might be too Machiavellian but who knows...

[Alfa Fan]

Surely F1 needs to adopt the system most series use in qualifying, that any incident is a red flag and thus avoids the problems seen here.

[truefan72]

1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 658.5kg
2. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 655.5
3. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 656
4. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 660
5. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 661
6. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 675
7. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 684.5
8. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 686
9. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 650
10. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 660.5
11. Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso, 682.5
12. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 658.5
13. Giancarlo Fisichella, Ferrari, 661.5
14. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 665.4
15. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 695.7
16. Romain Grosjean, Renault, 691.8
17. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 689.5
18. Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India, 682.5
19. Timo Glock, Toyota, n/a
20. Mark Webber, Red Bull, n/a


so kudos to vettel, he was heavier than trulli, hamilton, sutil but still pulled out a good time. Hamilton will have to have a dynamite start to get past Vettel. I am also hoping trulli has a good race and maybe, Toyota can get its first victory.

As to to Championship, I think Rubens has the edge in this race, But I'm not sure he will get to score that many points. Also jenson needs to be careful. fisi has kers and Jaime might be trouble at the first corner

[DazzlaF1]

Thanks to the revised grid after the penalties, Rosberg all of a sudden looks like a good bet to be in contention starting up in 7th on a optimum strategy.

Hamilton has to jump Vettel at the start if he wants to have any chance of victory

[truefan72]

Surely F1 needs to adopt the system most series use in qualifying, that any incident is a red flag and thus avoids the problems seen here.
if the incident is off the track or can be handled with a localized yellow then so be it. Let's not have a knee jerk reaction now. I don't want NASCARs tyle racing with yellows and safetycars for every incident.

It would be madness to red flag a race 3/4 times. With cars stopped, restarted etc, it is impossible and not practical at all.

[VkmSpouge]

Apparently Heikki Kovalainen has had to change his gearbox so that is another penalty to factor into the grid.

[Valve Bounce]

I have previously advocated that if there is an incident during quals, then instead of yellow flags, the session is stopped and all cars should return to pits. After that, 2 more laps should be permitted so that each car has an out lap plus a flying lap added to compensate for the incident slowing cars down. This is the only fair way to run quals.

Yellow or red flags/lights must be obeyed at all times, as this is a safety requirement - ignoring flags cannot be tolerated in either quals or a race.

[harsha]

trulli to form the lead of a procession come raceday with Hamilton & Vettel going out 1-2...not any specified order though...& Trulli will slide down the order after the first round of pits

[Somebody]

Apparently Heikki Kovalainen has had to change his gearbox so that is another penalty to factor into the grid.

As does Liuzzi. And of course, we don't know if Glock will take the start at this point.

Can anyone remember the priority order of penalties? (i.e., do gearbox penalties get applied before, simultaneously with or after on-track penalties?)

[Dave B]

I have previously advocated that if there is an incident during quals, then instead of yellow flags, the session is stopped and all cars should return to pits. After that, 2 more laps should be permitted so that each car has an out lap plus a flying lap added to compensate for the incident slowing cars down. This is the only fair way to run quals.

Yellow or red flags/lights must be obeyed at all times, as this is a safety requirement - ignoring flags cannot be tolerated in either quals or a race.
I agree, it's only fair that the drivers have enough time added to at least do an extra out lap.

Can't argue with the penalties either, even as a supporter of Button, it was a clear breach of the rules.

[DazzlaF1]

As does Liuzzi. And of course, we don't know if Glock will take the start at this point.

Can anyone remember the priority order of penalties? (i.e., do gearbox penalties get applied before, simultaneously with or after on-track penalties?)

Well if Kovalainen declared the gearbox change after the yellow flag penalties were announced, then i'd presume his 5 place drop takes place after the yellow flag ones

First come first serve in this sense

[Somebody]

I have previously advocated that if there is an incident during quals, then instead of yellow flags, the session is stopped and all cars should return to pits. After that, 2 more laps should be permitted so that each car has an out lap plus a flying lap added to compensate for the incident slowing cars down. This is the only fair way to run quals.

But the Brawns HAD TIME TO DO RUNS BEFORE BUEMI CRASHED! They'd had enough time to do a three-lap out/flying/in set, pit, and get back out again by the time the double-yellows were waved.

I was saying in the chat room from the restart that they should all have been straight out as soon as the green pit light went on in case something happened, like another red flag. Frankly, I think they should have had their Q2 times voided and start 14th & 15th.

As it stands, here's the three grid scenarios I can see, depending on what order the gearbox/yellows five-place drops are applied (leaving Glock in the order just-in-case, and presuming no-one changes an engine overnight...):

SIMULTANEOUSLY.
1. Sebastian Vettel
2. Jarno Trulli
3. Lewis Hamilton
4. Adrian Sutil
5. Nick Heidfeld
6. Kimi Raikkonen
7. Nico Rosberg
8. Timo Glock
9. Jaime Alguersuari
10. Rubens Barrichello
11. Giancarlo Fisichella
12. Jenson Button
13. Kazuki Nakajima
14. Heikki Kovalainen
15. Sebastien Buemi
16. Romain Grosjean
17. Fernando Alonso
18. Robert Kubica
19. Mark Webber
20. Vitantonio Liuzzi

GEARBOX, then YELLOW.
1. Sebastian Vettel
2. Jarno Trulli
3. Lewis Hamilton
4. Adrian Sutil
5. Nick Heidfeld
6. Kimi Raikkonen
7. Nico Rosberg
8. Timo Glock
9. Heikki Kovalainen
10. Rubens Barrichello
11. Jaime Alguersuari
12. Jenson Button
13. Giancarlo Fisichella
14. Sebastien Buemi
15. Kazuki Nakajima
16. Fernando Alonso
17. Robert Kubica
18. Romain Grosjean
19. Mark Webber
20. Vitantonio Liuzzi

YELLOW, then GEARBOX.
1. Sebastian Vettel
2. Jarno Trulli
3. Lewis Hamilton
4. Adrian Sutil
5. Nick Heidfeld
6. Kimi Raikkonen
7. Nico Rosberg
8. Timo Glock
9. Rubens Barrichello
10. Jaime Alguersuari
11. Jenson Button
12. Heikki Kovalainen
13. Giancarlo Fisichella
14. Kazuki Nakajima
15. Sebastien Buemi
16. Romain Grosjean
17. Fernando Alonso
18. Robert Kubica
19. Mark Webber
20. Vitantonio Liuzzi

[pettersolberg29]

Sutil cannot be 4th - Nick is 4th.

[Tumbo]

you haven't factored in the Sutil penalty and why exactly have u got kubica starting down the back?

[AndyL]

I have previously advocated that if there is an incident during quals, then instead of yellow flags, the session is stopped and all cars should return to pits. After that, 2 more laps should be permitted so that each car has an out lap plus a flying lap added to compensate for the incident slowing cars down. This is the only fair way to run quals.

Yellow or red flags/lights must be obeyed at all times, as this is a safety requirement - ignoring flags cannot be tolerated in either quals or a race.

I think that's a good idea.

I'm slightly surprised about these 5 place penalties - I thought that the penalty for failing to slow for yellows in qualy was that you lost that lap time?

[jens]

Hamilton will probably take at least P2 after the start and is Vettel's main threat for the victory. Trulli's main threat for P3 is Räikkönen, who might take this position with the help of KERS already in T1. Maybe BMW's and Brawns (in case they can quickly get past heavy cars) possess some kind of a threat too.

For the first time in his F1 career Alguersuari starts pretty much from the midfield, so hopefully he'll be able to keep his cool. :D But it still looks suspicious that something could "happen" in the midfield - surely for instance Sutil will try his best to improve his position on such low fuel-load.

[gloomyDAY]

I love Suzuka! Excellent work by the guys at Red Bull and putting Vettel on P1.

Can't wait for the final grid positions. Seems kind of silly to wait until Sunday morning.

[pettersolberg29]

We know the top 5 though definately don't we?:
Vettel
Trulli
Lewis
Nick
Kimi

After that anything could happen!

[pettersolberg29]

There could be a very long Trulli train also! Lewis should get past him, Nick and Kimi may but the rest could be in for a long dull race until the first stop.

[Garry Walker]

Red Bull very dominant here.

[jens]

There could be a very long Trulli train also! Lewis should get past him, Nick and Kimi may but the rest could be in for a long dull race until the first stop.

Err, what do you mean by very long train - 10 wagons? :p : Rosberg and Kubica have quite heavy cars from P6-P7, so if anything, we will see their train tomorrow with Sutil and Brawns trying to get past.

[F1boat]

I think that the race will be wild... I expect at least three cautions...

[Somebody]

you haven't factored in the Sutil penalty and why exactly have u got kubica starting down the back?
Basically, I gave Sutil's penalty to Kubica by mistake. Not sure how that happened...

[truefan72]

As does Liuzzi. And of course, we don't know if Glock will take the start at this point.

Can anyone remember the priority order of penalties? (i.e., do gearbox penalties get applied before, simultaneously with or after on-track penalties?)

I'm surprised and this is a blow to kovy and liuzzi. I think that infraction penalties are applied first and then change penalties last.

[truefan72]

But the Brawns HAD TIME TO DO RUNS BEFORE BUEMI CRASHED! They'd had enough time to do a three-lap out/flying/in set, pit, and get back out again by the time the double-yellows were waved.

I was saying in the chat room from the restart that they should all have been straight out as soon as the green pit light went on in case something happened, like another red flag. Frankly, I think they should have had their Q2 times voided and start 14th & 15th.

yep agreed. And that's what I was saying about them probably doing the laps anyway as the 5 place drop would be better than starting 14/15

[Saint Devote]

I think people are too goddamn nervous these days.

Drivers ought to be left to judge for themselves what they want to do on a local yellow flag - Button and Barrichello and co went through fine and there was no problem.

Instead we have stupid regulation that has artificially [once again] rearranged the grid and therefore the race.

And come on guys! This is MOTOR RACING - stop saying this or that is dangerous! It is irrelevant.

I rember a time in racing where such a phrase was just never said - any driver that thinks something is dangerous should not drive.

Barrichello made a comment post qualifying - Rubens, its time to pack it in old boy!

[truefan72]

I think people are too goddamn nervous these days.

Drivers ought to be left to judge for themselves what they want to do on a local yellow flag - Button and Barrichello and co went through fine and there was no problem.

Instead we have stupid regulation that has artificially [once again] rearranged the grid and therefore the race.

And come on guys! This is MOTOR RACING - stop saying this or that is dangerous! It is irrelevant.

I rember a time in racing where such a phrase was just never said - any driver that thinks something is dangerous should not drive.

Barrichello made a comment post qualifying - Rubens, its time to pack it in old boy!

unbelievable :down:

There are about a million reasons why your statement is patently wrong. I'll leave it to others to explain it to you...and those good old days you are referring to were the days when it was a common occurrence for drivers to loose their lives.
Yes those are the fond times you remember.

[Koz]

unbelievable :down:

There are about a million reasons why your statement is patently wrong. I'll leave it to others to explain it to you...and those good old days you are referring to were the days when it was a common occurrence for drivers to loose their lives.
Yes those are the fond times you remember.

I saw an interview a few months ago, not sure who but a WDC from way back when... He said the current drivers drive like crazy, he would never do that. They drive because they know they can't get hurt.

This could be the issue now days, and this will lead to bad things.

The cars are pretty damn fast, and something bad could happen at any moment. I agree with Rubens, people aren't immortal and if someone says they have no fear etc... They shouldn't be racing.

[Saint Devote]

unbelievable :down:

There are about a million reasons why your statement is patently wrong. I'll leave it to others to explain it to you...and those good old days you are referring to were the days when it was a common occurrence for drivers to loose their lives.
Yes those are the fond times you remember.

Just last week David Hobbs commented how drivers do things that nobody would have dreamed of doing. There has been a loss of respect for the danger.

I did not comment on "good old days" you merely interpret what you read instead of understanding what you are reading. You misconstrue.

I said that danger is irrelevant because if a driver goes about being concerned it makes him a risky driver and he ought to leave. A previous world champion retired because as he said he started to worry about his safety.

Soldiers going into battle are at far more risk than drivers and are at risk for longer - there is no concern about danger because just as drivers would not race if they were concerned the same way battle soldiers do not think about it because they have their responsibility. But they also wear the best equipment.

Worrying about danger makes you a risk and ineffective.

The technology improves and cars become safer not because a worry about danger but because it is the logical progression as science provides better technology.

Do you buy a car because you are concerned about getting into accidents? No. If you were worried you would not drive. You buy the latest car and most expensive you can because you want to drive a car and enjoy the experience and so on.

And I stand by my position on local yellows - the rule to "lift" or go slower than the lap before is a technical issue that is ridiculous. I have confidence in the drivers unlike people like you that appear to want to "govern" everything.

Laissez faire, laissez passer!

[airshifter]

unbelievable :down:

There are about a million reasons why your statement is patently wrong. I'll leave it to others to explain it to you...and those good old days you are referring to were the days when it was a common occurrence for drivers to loose their lives.
Yes those are the fond times you remember.

Agreed, and not worth trying to explain when a person is blinded by their personal favorites not doing well.

Maybe we should make the yellow and red lights in everyday driving up to the drivers option how to react as well? :laugh:

[Saint Devote]

I saw an interview a few months ago, not sure who but a WDC from way back when... He said the current drivers drive like crazy, he would never do that. They drive because they know they can't get hurt.

This could be the issue now days, and this will lead to bad things.

The cars are pretty damn fast, and something bad could happen at any moment. I agree with Rubens, people aren't immortal and if someone says they have no fear etc... They shouldn't be racing.

You are placing words in Barrichello's mouth. He said the track was dangerous - but perhaps he ought to have chosen his words better. Because if you read his comments further on it is more appropriate if he would have said areasof tehtrack are riskier because of the surface and inexperienced drivers and so on.

Well, Vettel did not go off, Hamilton did not go off and this is the first time they are on the track.

Inexperience has nothing to do with it. Buemi himself said that he made an error.

Suzuka is a track that separates the men from the boys and we certainly saw who they are.

[Saint Devote]

BTW - who was driving the Ferrari and the second Renault?

Both Fisichella and Grosjean are not doing much better and maybe worse than Badoer and Piquet!

[Saint Devote]

Agreed, and not worth trying to explain when a person is blinded by their personal favorites not doing well.

Maybe we should make the yellow and red lights in everyday driving up to the drivers option how to react as well? :laugh:

What silly comments. Do you actually believe that any serious motor racing supporter would use ridiculous emotions to interfere with their views?

Well you must, otherwise you could not have written the drivel above!

Tell me, have you ever actually been to a grand prix?

[Saint Devote]

This is unlikely to be a straightforward race today. With the changes in surface, the degradation affecting softer tyres available all resulting in driver mistakes, the first lap could be the wildest we have seen in a while.

And Suzuka is a driver's track and together with good strategy, the winner might come from any in the first 10 - Raikkonen won from 17th in 2005.

And then maybe it will rain!

Go Jenson :-]]]]]

[Dave B]

Drivers ought to be left to judge for themselves what they want to do on a local yellow flag - Button and Barrichello and co went through fine and there was no problem.
If we ever get the the point when an driver arriving on the scene at 160mph is in a better position to make a judgement call - in a few hundredths of a second - than the marshals stood there waving the flag, then I might agree with you.

Until then, your post must rank as one of the biggest piles of codswallop I've ever read on this forum.

[F1boat]

The penalties was bad for Brawn and still I think that it was wrong to punish them as no harm was done and the blame was for a Red Bull driver, but on the other hand Suzuka is extremely dangerous and the penalties were not bad. It is slightly weird that Jenson's penalty is so much worse than the one of Rubens, but hopefully Jenson's luck will strike again and will counter FIA's dirty tactics to "keep the drama" . :)

[truefan72]

revised grid
rubens back to 6th Jensonb to 10th

How did Rubens jump over Nico and Kubica?

1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 658.5kg
2. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 655.5
3. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 656
4. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 660
5. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 661
6. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 660.5
7. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 684.5
8. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 650
9. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 686
10. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 658.5
11. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 675
12. Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso, 682.5
13. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 665.4
14. Giancarlo Fisichella, Ferrari, 661.5
15. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 695.7
16. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 689.5
17. Romain Grosjean, Renault, 691.8
18. Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India, 682.5
19. Mark Webber, Red Bull, n/a

[ArrowsFA1]

Is there much overtaking at Fuji?
Not when one car has KERS and another doesn't. The Kovalainen v Suitil battle illustrated that very well.

[Garry Walker]

I think people are too goddamn nervous these days.

Drivers ought to be left to judge for themselves what they want to do on a local yellow flag - Button and Barrichello and co went through fine and there was no problem.

Wow. Are you sure you are over 10 years old? Because I would expect stuff like that from a child, not from an adult.
If you want to see what happens when a driver disobeys yellow flags, well look at that idiot Alonso crashing into Webbers tyres in Brazil in 2003. Yeah, leave it to them to judge it. Crazy stuff. If that happened, they would never lift.



And come on guys! This is MOTOR RACING - stop saying this or that is dangerous! It is irrelevant.
Yellow flags are irrelevant?

What does one say to reading stuff like this? Mindboggling


What silly comments. Do you actually believe that any serious motor racing supporter would use ridiculous emotions to interfere with their views?Yes, you would.


Tell me, have you ever actually been to a grand prix?

Tell me, have you ever raced in any series or does your experience consist of downing 7 beers during every race, then attending one race every year, which you think will make you an expert on racing safety?




And Suzuka is a driver's track and together with good strategy, the winner might come from any in the first 10


:rotflmao:

Accurate, as ever

[Daniel]

I agree with Garry. I personally think that SD should be warned for trolling, you can't suggest that drivers should ignore yellow flags.....

[AndyL]

Jenson thinks Rosberg set a green sector time after the SC boards came out, I have to say I didn't notice that, but if he's right then it will be a definite penalty for Rosberg and the WCC for Brawn.

[Daniel]

If that be true then it's the WCC for Brawn :up:

[Dave B]

If that's the case, Rosberg's really blotting his copybook recently. He's a rapid driver, but this on top of crossing the pitlane line in Singapore marks him out as sloppy, and chucking points down the drain that him and Williams can't afford to lose.

[harsha]

I agree with Garry. I personally think that SD should be warned for trolling, you can't suggest that drivers should ignore yellow flags.....

do u know what trolling is :?:

stating ones opinion no matter how wrong you might find it does not constitute as trolling

anyway...I agree with the penalties on the brawn drivers...you just can't ignore yellow flags which are there for the drivers's safety

[truefan72]

decent race, but my major qualm was the safety car restart
1. how come gorsjean was not sent to the back, plenty of time to let him pass and take up the rear
2. Why was trulli so far off, he should have been on grosjeans tail and passed him down the straight
3. they really need to sort out the bunching of cars at the restart, it's unbelievable how many times the lead car and subsequent cars are spaced by 100 metered or more. Maybe it is up to the drivers maybe it is up to the safety car, but I think that aspect should be more exciting with the cars properly bunched up together.

[Daniel]

I know what trolling is :) Saying that yellow flags should effectively ignored is just unacceptable to the point where it MUST be trolling.

[Dave B]

1. how come gorsjean was not sent to the back, plenty of time to let him pass and take up the rear
We noticed that - he should have been allowed to unlap himself or at the very very least told to stay out of the way. As it turns out, it didn't matter, but imagine if Hamilton's KERS had been working and he'd been in a position to challenge Trulli or Vettel. All hypothetical, but the fact is that a backmarker shouldn't have been in a position to interfere.

In fairness to Grosjean though, he did leap out of the way once he had an opportunity, and made sure he wasn't a factor in the Barrichello / Button / Kubica / Alonso battle.

[harsha]

yeah...Trulli was effectively not allowed to be behind Vettel's back....

they could have the people being lapped pull out one one side so that the grid can rearrange itself....wonder why ppl don't think of that rule :mark:

[AndyL]

Rosberg now claiming that he didn't gain an advantage under the safety car... :crazy:

He's also commented that he managed to make up 4 places while he was in bed asleep last night, very amusing :D

[Dave B]

I know what trolling is :) Saying that yellow flags should effectively ignored is just unacceptable to the point where it MUST be trolling.
:up: Anybody's entitled to their opinion, but I'm coming to the conclusion that certain people post deliberately inflamatory gibberish to provoke a reaction.

[DexDexter]

decent race, but my major qualm was the safety car restart
1. how come gorsjean was not sent to the back, plenty of time to let him pass and take up the rear
2. Why was trulli so far off, he should have been on grosjeans tail and passed him down the straight
3. they really need to sort out the bunching of cars at the restart, it's unbelievable how many times the lead car and subsequent cars are spaced by 100 metered or more. Maybe it is up to the drivers maybe it is up to the safety car, but I think that aspect should be more exciting with the cars properly bunched up together.

Exactly. What is it with F1 drivers and restarts. Almost every time some/many drivers are deep asleep when the safety car pulls out. It's pretty difficult to understand why that happens every single time.

[harsha]

I know what trolling is :) Saying that yellow flags should effectively ignored is just unacceptable to the point where it MUST be trolling.

just cause you and I don't agree with his opinion doesn't make that him a troll...

anyway let's leave it at that :)

[Ent]

I remember a few years ago in Brazil when, near the end of the race, Webber put his Jag into the wall. There were bits of car all over the track and a tyre sitting right there in the middle. Alonso didn't back off enough, came screaming around the corner straight into the tyre, then smashed head-on into a tyre wall and was in considerable pain when he was stretchered off.

The whole point of yellow flags is to warn drivers that there is changed conditions ahead and to back off. The drivers don't know what those conditions are, so are in no way able to make any judgment decision themselves. If they choose to ignore it and find a car sitting across the middle of the track, they're likely to kill someone.

The problem I had with the Brawns is that the lap under yellows that was deemed illegal and resulted in a penalty was still allowed to stand. If the Brawn drivers did the right thing, they would have started P14 and P15. They broke the rules and were, as a result, reward by gaining positions in Q3. The result was that they started P6 and P10. They gained up to 8 places by ignoring a yellow flag and potentially putting themselves or others in danger. This should not be the way it works. You can't have drivers rewarded for ignoring yellows.

It was suggested on another site that, in qualifying, if a car passes through yellows, the lap should not count (so drivers aren't tempted to compromise safety). The more I think about this, the better it sounds.

[Daniel]

It's not that I don't agree with him, it's that NO ONE agrees with him that marks him as a troll.

[AndyL]

1. how come gorsjean was not sent to the back, plenty of time to let him pass and take up the rear

Hasn't that idea been ditched with the new safety car rules this year? Rightly so IMO. The safety car is for protecting marshals on track, not artificially resetting the race. If a back-marker is between two front-runners after a safety car, it's because he was there before the safety car. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[ShiftingGears]

It's not that I don't agree with him, it's that NO ONE agrees with him that marks him as a troll.

Argumentum ad populum is ridiculous logic.

[Daniel]

I agree normally but I think this is one case where the majority are without a doubt 100% correct

[truefan72]

I did not comment on "good old days" you merely interpret what you read instead of understanding what you are reading. You misconstrue.

these are your words

I rember a time in racing where such a phrase was just never said - any driver that thinks something is dangerous should not drive.

correct me if I am wrong, but are you not inferring to a time in the past. Enlighten us, what time in history is it when these drivers never worried about safety. The fangio days, the Stirling Moss days, the Stewart days, the Lauda days, the senna days?

The one thing they have in common is that drivers died during those eras and were still under some sort of safety measures. what you are arguing about never occurred and never will because it is madness.

thinking that drivers should go flat out through a debris field because it is their judgment that they can managed the danger is just beyond comprehension. Its too bad for Jenson and that party you were planning for him is on ice for another two weeks. That's the real motivation behind your comments!

[Robinho]

interesting race, bit of a result for Brawn in the end, Jenson was much faster than Rubens when clear, and did well to only lose a point, it seems that Rubens struggled to get the right set up - that can't be right can it?! ;)

i struggle to see how the decided to come up with those grid positions - i know they said they applied penalities in the order the offences were comitted, but how did Sutil go from 4th to 8th and end up behind Rubens who effectively only lost one place? IMO they should have applied all the yellow flag pens at the same time, docking 5 places from each, rather than one at a time, taking places and then bumping peole back up the grid as you knock others down.

[truefan72]

I remember a few years ago in Brazil when, near the end of the race, Webber put his Jag into the wall. There were bits of car all over the track and a tyre sitting right there in the middle. Alonso didn't back off enough, came screaming around the corner straight into the tyre, then smashed head-on into a tyre wall and was in considerable pain when he was stretchered off.

The whole point of yellow flags is to warn drivers that there is changed conditions ahead and to back off. The drivers don't know what those conditions are, so are in no way able to make any judgment decision themselves. If they choose to ignore it and find a car sitting across the middle of the track, they're likely to kill someone.

The problem I had with the Brawns is that the lap under yellows that was deemed illegal and resulted in a penalty was still allowed to stand. If the Brawn drivers did the right thing, they would have started P14 and P15. They broke the rules and were, as a result, reward by gaining positions in Q3. The result was that they started P6 and P10. They gained up to 8 places by ignoring a yellow flag and potentially putting themselves or others in danger. This should not be the way it works. You can't have drivers rewarded for ignoring yellows.

It was suggested on another site that, in qualifying, if a car passes through yellows, the lap should not count (so drivers aren't tempted to compromise safety). The more I think about this, the better it sounds.

Excellent points

especially the nixing of the lap time under the yellow flag

[F1boat]

Horrible race, I am only happy because Jenson held Kubica. Apart from this, that was a weekend in which STR ruined Brawn GP. So this was probably the least enjoyable race for me.

[truefan72]

interesting race, bit of a result for Brawn in the end, Jenson was much faster than Rubens when clear, and did well to only lose a point, it seems that Rubens struggled to get the right set up - that can't be right can it?! ;)

i struggle to see how the decided to come up with those grid positions - i know they said they applied penalities in the order the offences were comitted, but how did Sutil go from 4th to 8th and end up behind Rubens who effectively only lost one place? IMO they should have applied all the yellow flag pens at the same time, docking 5 places from each, rather than one at a time, taking places and then bumping peole back up the grid as you knock others down.

surely it had to be a mistake somehow
because sutil was 4th and rubens 5th
so when sutil dropped rubens would have been 9th and still behind sutil, in fact, both sutil and rubens where assessed the same penalty on the same lap for the same infraction, so they should have dropped together.
so the first revised grid that the FIA put out was this one

1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 658.5kg
2. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 655.5
3. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 656
4. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 660
5. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 661
6. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 675
7. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 684.5
8. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 686
9. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 650
10. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 660.5
11. Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso, 682.5
12. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 658.5
13. Giancarlo Fisichella, Ferrari, 661.5
14. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 665.4
15. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 695.7
16. Romain Grosjean, Renault, 691.8
17. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 689.5
18. Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India, 682.5
19. Timo Glock, Toyota, n/a
20. Mark Webber, Red Bull, n/a


now with kovy's grid place penalty for the gear box change it should have been like this

1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 658.5kg
2. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 655.5
3. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 656
4. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 660
5. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 661
6. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 684.5
7. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 686
8. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 650
9. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 660.5
10. Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso, 682.
11. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 675
12. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 658.5
13. Giancarlo Fisichella, Ferrari, 661.5
14. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 665.4
15. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 695.7
16. Romain Grosjean, Renault, 691.8
17. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 689.5
18. Mark Webber, Red Bull, n/a
19. Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India, 682.5
20. Timo Glock, Toyota, n/a


but the final grid looked like this
1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 658.5kg
2. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 655.5
3. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 656
4. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 660
5. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 661
6. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 660.5
7. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 684.5
8. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 650
9. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 686
10. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 658.5
11. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 675
12. Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso, 682.5
13. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 665.4
14. Giancarlo Fisichella, Ferrari, 661.5
15. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 695.7
16. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 689.5
17. Romain Grosjean, Renault, 691.8
18. Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India, 682.5
19. Mark Webber, Red Bull, n/a

how did rubens jump nico and kubica?
how did Jenson jump Kovy and Alguersuari ?
still don't understand the FIA thinking

[Dave B]

Horrible race, I am only happy because Jenson held Kubica. Apart from this, that was a weekend in which STR ruined Brawn GP. So this was probably the least enjoyable race for me.
You said after qualifying that you felt Buemi's crash was "suspicious". Do you still believe that?

[HenryM]

I was expecting more for this race, but it was quite boring...
not so different from the tilke tracks.

[jens]

Firstly, how come Rubens started from P6, hence lost only 1 position on the grid due to penalty? The way FIA allocates penalties is just ridiculous and doesn't make any sense at all. Before that yellow flag RB - for instance - was clearly out of Q3, so he gained a lot without lifting. At least now it's clear that in the future no-one will lift in yellow flag zones in qualis, because there is much more to gain even with penalties. :D

Kovalainen is reaching new lows. When in the past he was at least around P6-P7, when Lewis was driving firmly in podium position, now he was already clearly out of the points. Oh, and shame about Sutil. He had to try an overtake and I think the collision was more Heikki's fault there this time.

[ShiftingGears]

I was expecting more for this race, but it was quite boring...
not so different from the tilke tracks.

Besides the fact that it is challenging, undulating, flowing and punishes the drivers for making mistakes.


So really, it is completely and utterly unlike Tilke tracks. Do you think you will get exciting races at every circuit?

[truefan72]

Kovalainen is reaching new lows. When in the past he was at least around P6-P7, when Lewis was driving firmly in podium position, now he was already clearly out of the points. Oh, and shame about Sutil. He had to try an overtake and I think the collision was more Heikki's fault there this time.
95/5 Kovy/Sutil

Kovy knew he was toast and tried to force the issue being behind and spun Sutil. Sutil didn't give him much room, but expected Kovy to back off instead of ramming him. I was surprised the incident was not investigated and Kovy being brought in for gaining an unfair advantage by driving off the track and then hitting a car coming on. He was pretty much on the grass at Casio and behind sutil. i remember massa getting a penalty for doing that on Hamilton in Japan last year.

[HenryM]

I'm saying that the race wasn't that different (not so exciting as I was expecting, obviously the track is a lot better and more challenging than tilke tracks)...

[ShiftingGears]

I'm saying that the race wasn't that different (not so exciting as I was expecting, obviously the track is a lot better and more challenging than tilke tracks)...

You get some exciting races and some not so exciting races at any circuit. It's part of grand prix racing.

[HenryM]

You get some exciting races and some not so exciting races at any circuit. It's part of grand prix racing.

of course, but I was expecting a bit more from this one :)

[Robinho]

surely it had to be a mistake somehow
because sutil was 4th and rubens 5th
so when sutil dropped rubens would have been 9th and still behind sutil, in fact, both sutil and rubens where assessed the same penalty on the same lap for the same infraction, so they should have dropped together.
so the first revised grid that the FIA put out was this one

1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 658.5kg
2. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 655.5
3. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 656
4. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 660
5. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 661
6. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 675
7. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 684.5
8. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 686
9. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 650
10. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 660.5
11. Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso, 682.5
12. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 658.5
13. Giancarlo Fisichella, Ferrari, 661.5
14. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 665.4
15. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 695.7
16. Romain Grosjean, Renault, 691.8
17. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 689.5
18. Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India, 682.5
19. Timo Glock, Toyota, n/a
20. Mark Webber, Red Bull, n/a


now with kovy's grid place penalty for the gear box change it should have been like this

1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 658.5kg
2. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 655.5
3. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 656
4. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 660
5. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 661
6. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 684.5
7. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 686
8. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 650
9. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 660.5
10. Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso, 682.
11. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 675
12. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 658.5
13. Giancarlo Fisichella, Ferrari, 661.5
14. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 665.4
15. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 695.7
16. Romain Grosjean, Renault, 691.8
17. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 689.5
18. Mark Webber, Red Bull, n/a
19. Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India, 682.5
20. Timo Glock, Toyota, n/a


but the final grid looked like this
1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 658.5kg
2. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 655.5
3. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 656
4. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 660
5. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 661
6. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 660.5
7. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 684.5
8. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 650
9. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 686
10. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 658.5
11. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 675
12. Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso, 682.5
13. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 665.4
14. Giancarlo Fisichella, Ferrari, 661.5
15. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 695.7
16. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 689.5
17. Romain Grosjean, Renault, 691.8
18. Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India, 682.5
19. Mark Webber, Red Bull, n/a

how did rubens jump nico and kubica?
how did Jenson jump Kovy and Alguersuari ?
still don't understand the FIA thinking

what i understand is that they gave the yellow flag pens in the order they were incurred, one by one. so you have to give Rubens his first, then Jenson,, then Sutil, (not sure where alonso) was. factor in Buemi getting a 5 place as well (don't know when he should be given his) and then the gearbox ones and you should end up with the final grid - i've had a go but still couldnn't work it out!?

[ShiftingGears]

Horrible race, I am only happy because Jenson held Kubica. Apart from this, that was a weekend in which STR ruined Brawn GP. So this was probably the least enjoyable race for me.

The Brawn drivers chose not to heed the yellow flags - it was blatantly breaking the rules, regardless of what you think of them.

I quite enjoyed the race. A real shame about Webber's weekend though.

[ShiftingGears]

Sutil didn't give him much room,

And nor should he have. I would say it was 100% Kovalainen's fault. Didn't stop Legard trying to pin it on Sutil because of his previous bonehead incidents though.

[Robinho]

Stewards say 1hr to sort the Rosberg situation, apprently he set a personal best sector on the safety car lap, depends on when the safety car was thrown and if he was subject to the average speed at that time?

as it stands Brawn 1/2 point from winning the constructors champ

[Robinho]

Williams just gone in (Sam michael, Rosberg +1) gone to the stewards now

[Dave B]

You mean "stewads", surely? :p

[Robinho]

do i? i know its early but i don't get it!?

[Dave B]

I thought you must have been watching Ted Kravitz: he pointed out the rather poor spelling on the sign in the Suzuka race control building. :)

[Robinho]

oh, Japanese translation in action! i was watching, but must have missed that bit

[Robinho]

best explaination of the dubious grid here http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/10/glock-to-miss-gp-as-grid-changes-are-confirmed/

[gloomyDAY]

My signature says it all....

Vettel + RB5 = :)

[Dave B]

I'm hearing no penalty for Rosberg - the constructors' championship goes on to Brazil.

Jonathon Noble's Twitter: http://twitter.com/NobleF1/statuses/4599636298

Also here: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79250


"The Stewards met with the drivers and the team representatives and considered the telemetry data, GPS records, timekeeping and video evidence. This evidence showed a 'low fuel' message on the drivers display had overridden the time delta information preventing the driver from being able to accurately follow the timing information.

"However the telemetry data shows that the driver from a safety point of view had reacted adequately to the yellow flags and safety car boards. In view of this the stewards intend to take no further action."

[F1boat]

For me it is another decision for the drama. Brawns were punished for yellow flags. Sadly it is becoming like the WWF, really...

[VkmSpouge]

Excellent win for Sebastian Vettel. He clearly was the class of the field this weekend and has kept his slim championship hopes alive.
Jarno Trulli did very well, re-passing Lewis Hamilton during the pitstops to get second place in Japan should go down well with the higher ups in Toyota.
Jenson Button will probably be happy enough with how the race went, securing 8th place and having his championship lead eroded by just a single point instead of the five Barrichello really needed to do, means Button will be champion if he can get a podium finish at Brazil (easier said than done).

[harsha]

@Vkm....Jarno was probably helped by the failure of the KERS system in Hamilton's car more than anything

[ioan]

BTW - who was driving the Ferrari and the second Renault?

Both Fisichella and Grosjean are not doing much better and maybe worse than Badoer and Piquet!

Nonsense!
Doing worse than Badoer is impossible given that he started and finished dead last in both races he drove for Ferrari.

[ioan]

The penalties was bad for Brawn and still I think that it was wrong to punish them as no harm was done and the blame was for a Red Bull driver...

There are rules in place for a good reason, to be respected in order to preserve the lives of the competitors in unforeseen circumstances.

[ioan]

Wow. Are you sure you are over 10 years old?

I have strong doubts about that too.

[ioan]

For me it is another decision for the drama. Brawns were punished for yellow flags. Sadly it is becoming like the WWF, really...

I don't know why would you like the Brawn GP cars to be favored by the FIA?!

[F1boat]

I'd like if they are punished for yellows, Nico to be punished as well. It is my feeling that everything is done to keep the drama alive till Abu Dhabi. You may disagree with me, of course.

[ioan]

I'd like if they are punished for yellows, Nico to be punished as well. It is my feeling that everything is done to keep the drama alive till Abu Dhabi. You may disagree with me, of course.

I disagree with you because it's been more than a year since you are complaining about every time when the FIA sanctioned a driver and now all of a sudden you want them to penalize one, isn't that double standards from you?

[truefan72]

best explaination of the dubious grid here http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/10/glock-to-miss-gp-as-grid-changes-are-confirmed/

seems liet the FIa wanted the title fight to continue. I've slept on it , went back to the grid and penalties and still can;t see how rubens drops one spot while sutil drops 4 although sutil was ahead of him. Also can;t see how he does not drop past nico and Kubica in any scenario. Button as well.

The FIA just screwed it up and I expect an apology for the teams they screwed out of potential valuable WCC points.

[harsha]

Nonsense!
Doing worse than Badoer is impossible given that he started and finished dead last in both races he drove for Ferrari.

:laugh: :up:

[F1boat]

I disagree with you because it's been more than a year since you are complaining about every time when the FIA sanctioned a driver and now all of a sudden you want them to penalize one, isn't that double standards from you?

Well, yes, but this is because it seemed that one team is losing in both situations.

[Ent]

seems like the FIa wanted the title fight to continue. I've slept on it , went back to the grid and penalties and still can;t see how rubens drops one spot while sutil drops 4 although sutil was ahead of him. Also can;t see how he does not drop past nico and Kubica in any scenario. Button as well.

Apparently they applied the penalties in order of who ignored the yellows (or incurred their penalties). Qualifying order was:

- P4: Sutil, P5: Barrichello, P7: Button, P9: Kovalainen, P10: Buemi, P12: Alonso

First Alonso was punished, sending him to P17, which changed to P16 after Glock withdrew. Then Button was penalised, pushing him to P12, then Barrichello, who goes to P10.

- P4: Sutil, P7: Kovalainen, P8: Buemi, P9: Barrichello, P12: Button, P16: Alonso

Next, Buemi goes from P8 back to P13, pushing Barrichello and Button up a place.

- P4: Sutil, P7: Kovalainen, P8: Barrichello, P11: Button, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

Then Sutil goes from P4 to P9, pushing Barrichello and Kovalainen up another place.

- P6: Kovalainen, P7: Barrichello, P9: Sutil, P11: Button, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

Lastly, Kovalainen drops 5 places from P6 to P11, pushing up Barrichello, Sutil and Button up another place.

- P6: Barichello, P8: Sutil, P10: Button, P11: Kovalainen, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

I'm pretty sure that mathematically this is the only order of penalties that could possibly produce the grid that we ended up with. What a mess. :)

[Robinho]

Apparently they applied the penalties in order of who ignored the yellows (or incurred their penalties). Qualifying order was:

- P4: Sutil, P5: Barrichello, P7: Button, P9: Kovalainen, P10: Buemi, P12: Alonso

First Alonso was punished, sending him to P17, which changed to P16 after Glock withdrew. Then Button was penalised, pushing him to P12, then Barrichello, who goes to P10.

- P4: Sutil, P7: Kovalainen, P8: Buemi, P9: Barrichello, P12: Button, P16: Alonso

Next, Buemi goes from P8 back to P13, pushing Barrichello and Button up a place.

- P4: Sutil, P7: Kovalainen, P8: Barrichello, P11: Button, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

Then Sutil goes from P4 to P9, pushing Barrichello and Kovalainen up another place.

- P6: Kovalainen, P7: Barrichello, P9: Sutil, P11: Button, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

Lastly, Kovalainen drops 5 places from P6 to P11, pushing up Barrichello, Sutil and Button up another place.

- P6: Barichello, P8: Sutil, P10: Button, P11: Kovalainen, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

I'm pretty sure that mathematically this is the only order of penalties that could possibly produce the grid that we ended up with. What a mess. :)

thank you for going to the trouble of working it through - it is a shambolic situation - IMO as all the yellow flag ignorers were part oft he same incident they should be dealt with en mass, and all docked 5 places together, then knock back buemi and the gearbox changers who were punished after and if that chanes things so be it, but there should be a collective punishment for each transgression, not the piecemeal version the FIA went with which made a mockery of punishing anyone really and was more harsh on some drivers than others for the same rules infringement

[harsha]

Apparently they applied the penalties in order of who ignored the yellows (or incurred their penalties). Qualifying order was:

- P4: Sutil, P5: Barrichello, P7: Button, P9: Kovalainen, P10: Buemi, P12: Alonso

First Alonso was punished, sending him to P17, which changed to P16 after Glock withdrew. Then Button was penalised, pushing him to P12, then Barrichello, who goes to P10.

- P4: Sutil, P7: Kovalainen, P8: Buemi, P9: Barrichello, P12: Button, P16: Alonso

Next, Buemi goes from P8 back to P13, pushing Barrichello and Button up a place.

- P4: Sutil, P7: Kovalainen, P8: Barrichello, P11: Button, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

Then Sutil goes from P4 to P9, pushing Barrichello and Kovalainen up another place.

- P6: Kovalainen, P7: Barrichello, P9: Sutil, P11: Button, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

Lastly, Kovalainen drops 5 places from P6 to P11, pushing up Barrichello, Sutil and Button up another place.

- P6: Barichello, P8: Sutil, P10: Button, P11: Kovalainen, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

I'm pretty sure that mathematically this is the only order of penalties that could possibly produce the grid that we ended up with. What a mess. :)

thanks for clarifying and the hard work :up:

just one more useless rule where the FIA manage to shoot themselves in the foot

[Saint Devote]

For me it is another decision for the drama. Brawns were punished for yellow flags. Sadly it is becoming like the WWF, really...

:D Auld sport, did you just recognize that now?

It has been that way for some time.

Requiring pit stops as a rule because of tyre changes.

Ridiculous rules such as the local yellow flag that declares drivers have no proper judgement and the consequence is the capricious nature of its application.

Not allowing testing and trying to force the formula down to the lowest standard rather than allowing it to flourish to the highest through an artificial cost containment.

The current qualifying format that is managed according to weight - at least in 2010 it is beginning to pullback from its WWF trend.

[Saint Devote]

Nonsense!
Doing worse than Badoer is impossible given that he started and finished dead last in both races he drove for Ferrari.

Oh yeah?

Fisichella was not out of racing for 10 years like Badoer. Fischella finished 12th today whilst Raikkonen placed 4th in a car where devlopment has ceased.

Badoer finished 17th then 14th in his next race. Along comes Fisichella all tears and emotion. Reality BITES. He begins at Monza and has finished 9th, 13th and 12th today.

Yet we hear excuses for Fisichella and criticism for Badoer. It is a double standard that you and others perpetrate. Disgraceful!!!

:vader: Both drivers are putrid!

[Saint Devote]

Not an exciting grand prix for Jens' Barmy Army but after the grid silliness at least he scored a point and drove well :-]]

On to Interlagos for the CHAMPIONSHiP!!!

Go Jenson! :-]]]]] OOgah!! OOgah!!

[truefan72]

Apparently they applied the penalties in order of who ignored the yellows (or incurred their penalties). Qualifying order was:

- P4: Sutil, P5: Barrichello, P7: Button, P9: Kovalainen, P10: Buemi, P12: Alonso

First Alonso was punished, sending him to P17, which changed to P16 after Glock withdrew. Then Button was penalised, pushing him to P12, then Barrichello, who goes to P10.

- P4: Sutil, P7: Kovalainen, P8: Buemi, P9: Barrichello, P12: Button, P16: Alonso

Next, Buemi goes from P8 back to P13, pushing Barrichello and Button up a place.

- P4: Sutil, P7: Kovalainen, P8: Barrichello, P11: Button, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

Then Sutil goes from P4 to P9, pushing Barrichello and Kovalainen up another place.

- P6: Kovalainen, P7: Barrichello, P9: Sutil, P11: Button, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

Lastly, Kovalainen drops 5 places from P6 to P11, pushing up Barrichello, Sutil and Button up another place.

- P6: Barichello, P8: Sutil, P10: Button, P11: Kovalainen, P13: Buemi, P16: Alonso

I'm pretty sure that mathematically this is the only order of penalties that could possibly produce the grid that we ended up with. What a mess. :)

its a good try, but does not explain how Barrichjelo jumps nico and Kubica or gets past Sutil. There is no logic to explain Barrichelo getting past sutil for the same penalty on the same lap for the same infraction. If the 2 drivers are assesed equally.
in your scenario, rubens is pushed to(not p9) p10 after the penalty while sutil remains p4, then Sutil should be moved down to p9. They cannot penalize buemi before sutil giving an advantage to rubens, when it is those cars that all passed buemi before he started strolling into the pits.

In order of infracions Alonso, Barrichelo, Sutil and Button are all penalised for the same infraction on the same lap so no matter what order they are in, they all drop 5 spots and Rubens never gets past sutil.

Next are the gear box penalties which occurred AFTER the yellow flag violations, which would bump up said drivers behind kovy. Nico and Kubica should then be 5/6 Sutil and Rubens 7/8 and Button 10. There is no other way to explain the outcome. and the scenario you laid out on top should then have this outcome

[Saint Devote]

There are rules in place for a good reason, to be respected in order to preserve the lives of the competitors in unforeseen circumstances.

Well thats the hypothesis anyway.

[Dave B]

Rosberg's lack of lap delta time on his display was, apparently, down to the standard ECU used by all the teams. Given that his telemetry proves he did slow down, I can understand the lack of punishment.


Rosb didn't get done for speed under safety car because it was a problem on standard ECU, never happened before. Not Williams problem
http://twitter.com/Jamesallenonf1/statuses/4601115146

[ioan]

Oh yeah?

Yeah.

[ioan]

Go Jenson! :-]]]]] OOgah!! OOgah!!

:rotflmao:

[Saint Devote]

The Japanese grand prix had a bad case of empty grandstands today. First time I can recall Suzuka being so.

I remember the days when tickets were obtained through lottery draw because there used to be over 500,000 applications for 130,000 seats.

While worldwide economic distress is affecting consumer decisions, it was nevertheless a surprise.

[Ent]

The Japanese grand prix had a bad case of empty grandstands today. First time I can recall Suzuka being so.

I remember the days when tickets were obtained through lottery draw because there used to be over 500,000 applications for 130,000 seats.

While worldwide economic distress is affecting consumer decisions, it was nevertheless a surprise.

That's a surprise. I went to the Suzuka race in 2004 and again in 2006 (I used to live about 40 minutes south of there) and there were so many people that you could barely move through the grounds. It is a Honda facility and a big Honda area. I wonder if not having Honda in the championship this year has had an effect...

[Saint Devote]

That's a surprise. I went to the Suzuka race in 2004 and again in 2006 (I used to live about 40 minutes south of there) and there were so many people that you could barely move through the grounds. It is a Honda facility and a big Honda area. I wonder if not having Honda in the championship this year has had an effect...

Its possible although I doubt it. Fans in Japan are really not fickle and love the sport especially Ayrton Senna who of course had great success with the Mclaren-Honda.

[Saint Devote]

I wonder if it is Kimi's still friendly association with Mclaren or a portend of things to come that instead of entering pitlane through the Ferrari pits, he went through the Mclaren team's pits instead during the Suzuka grand prix.

Must say I found that John Howett's refusal "to answer such a stupid question" when asked if Glock had "Kobayashi fever" by a German journalist at a press session, extremely funny LOL!!!

[gloomyDAY]

Must say I found that John Howett's refusal "to answer such a stupid question" when asked if Glock had "Kobayashi fever" by a German journalist at a press session, extremely funny LOL!!!Really? lol

Post a link! I want to see that for myself. :)

[Roamy]

I forget - did anyone pass anyone in the race??

ticket sales = passing

I thought it was good however seeing the guys who came up with electronics see what it is like to control the car and big speed.

[F1boat]

Well, fousto there were no passing, almost no passing. IMO, the Singapore GP was better, actually.

[Dave B]

Button on Kubica, Kovy on Fisi coming out of the pits... yup I think that's about it.

[Robinho]

Button on Kubica, Kovy on Fisi coming out of the pits... yup I think that's about it.

Button on Kubica was a peach, plus Sutil on Kovy, buy Kovy decided to drive into him for that one

[Saint Devote]

Really? lol

Post a link! I want to see that for myself. :)

It is under the column "Grapevine" written by Autosport's Johnathan Noble:

]]]In Friday's media conference, Toyota F1 president John Howett was not too impressed at the conspiracy theories.
German journalist Ralf Bach asked: "What is the illness of Timo. Is it Kobayashi fever?"
Howett swiftly responded: "I just won't answer. It is a stupid question and it doesn't deserve an answer."
By Saturday night, Glock probably wished he had stayed in bed for the whole weekend.[[[

:D reading his whole GV from Suzuka colimn at the end this just cracks me up!

Kobayashi fever!!! - I think just imagining John Howett reacting pushes the buutton.