More signs Toyota may be withdrawing from F1 after 2009.... [Archive]

Giuseppe F1

28th September 2009, 19:56

Toyota announce thet arent taking up their option on Glock for 2010/////

No Trulli confirmed, no Glock confirmed, probably dropping from Williams as an engine supplier, are they about to withdraw from F1?

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http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090928165305.shtml

Timo Glock joins the 2010 driver market
28/09/09 16:53

A day before his solid second place finish in Singapore, Timo Glock was informed by his Toyota team president John Howett that the option on his contract to include the 2010 season will not be taken up by the team.

The information was reported by the German publications Sport Bild as well as newspapers Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and Bild-Zeitung.

A spokesman for the Cologne-based team also confirmed the news, but contradicted those publications who interpreted the move as Glock having been ‘fired’. Rather, he insisted that Toyota's partnership with Glock is not necessarily at an end, but that both sides had been given freedom to assess their options.

"The door is not closed," he added, also insisting that the news has nothing to do with the team's future.

However, with Jarno Trulli's future also in the air, the news could be seen as yet more evidence that parent company Toyota Motor Co.
intends to pull the plug on the F1 programme at the end of the season.

Glock also confirmed the news about his expiring option. "Now I have to look around," he said. "I have several possibilities and I am very confident. Let's see what happens this week."

Sebastian Vettel said he was shocked to hear that Toyota was not automatically renewing Glock's deal, but surmised that his Singapore podium had been "the right answer" to give.

Source: GMM
© CAPSIS International

K-Pu

28th September 2009, 22:58

The big problem with Toyota is that F1 loses an engine supplier. Apart from that, if they leave they´ll be remembered as the team who spent more money than anyone else and... didn´t succeed.

I don´t like Toyota very much, nor I dislike them, but who will replace them?

HenryM

28th September 2009, 23:12

toyota should stay, and try to hire Kubica or Raikkonen and keep Glock to.

Valve Bounce

28th September 2009, 23:24

Toyota's sales have declined, as had Honda. Maybe they can give the team to Super Aguri.

Nate_ST

29th September 2009, 00:39

Saint Devote

29th September 2009, 01:05

I really hope they don't. I don't want to see F1 end up being just Ferrari and Mercedes. I like seeing lots of manufacturers in this sport, which is also why I hope Renault does come back in two years.

You have to be new to motor racing.

Look back at the wonderful RACING that occurred without the cyclical presence of auto manufacturers.

The auto manufacturers will always act as they do because they are not racing teams. Does f1 benefit from their presence, yes, but does it lose from their leaving? No.

Renault has not been run as an auto manufacturer - it was run and continues to run as a racing team first, the team of Flavio Briatore.

Saint Devote

29th September 2009, 01:14

I would say that it is because the 2010 budget has not been signed in Tokyo.

So even Toyota have no idea whether they will be in f1 or not.

Doing it this way allows Glock to look for another drive and still retains Toyota the option of signing him.

If you recall it was only in the last weeks that Glock mentioned he was in a quandry and I think that perhaps on the urging of Howett the team is acting decently towards its drivers.

Glock I think said that Toyota was only going to decide in January sometime.

airshifter

29th September 2009, 01:25

Renault has not been run as an auto manufacturer - it was run and continues to run as a racing team first, the team of a blatant cheat who has been ousted from the sport for race fixing.

Fixed.

I agree that manufacturers will come and go, but they have added a great deal to the sport IMHO. With the true blooded racing teams being thin, they provide competition and further the technology of the sport.

Valve Bounce

29th September 2009, 02:49

You have to be new to motor racing.

Look back at the wonderful RACING that occurred without the cyclical presence of auto manufacturers.

The auto manufacturers will always act as they do because they are not racing teams. Does f1 benefit from their presence, yes, but does it lose from their leaving? No.

Renault has not been run as an auto manufacturer - it was run and continues to run as a racing team first, the team of Flavio Briatore.

:D :rotflmao:

Valve Bounce

29th September 2009, 03:01

Fixed.

I agree that manufacturers will come and go, but they have added a great deal to the sport IMHO. With the true blooded racing teams being thin, they provide competition and further the technology of the sport.

I think there were some manufacturers who just made up the numbers: Honda and Porsche come to mind, although others like Mercedes, Auto Union, Alpha Romeo have been successful.

At the moment, while Mercedes does not have a car, their engines are greatly needed and successful in F1.

Saint Devote

29th September 2009, 03:17

I think there were some manufacturers who just made up the numbers: Honda and Porsche come to mind, although others like Mercedes, Auto Union, Alpha Romeo have been successful.

At the moment, while Mercedes does not have a car, their engines are greatly needed and successful in F1.

Porsche never made up the numbers. Through TAG they combined with Mclaren between 1984 to 1987 and won 5 world titles [3 drivers with Lauda and Prost and 2 constructors].

Saint Devote

29th September 2009, 03:27

:D :rotflmao:

You doubt it was run that way?

Caubet said that Renault F1 is there because Flavio built the team and Fernando and that it is the reality and they don't want to suggest anything else. But the team will be run a bit differently now that the auto manufacturer will conduct things.

He also said that Renault will maintain a good relationship with Flavio.

Moral courage from Fernando, Caubet and Bernard Rey - Renault F1 president.

I love the French they are like the Frank Williams of the world, independant, always elegant in political incorrectness and get away with everything, and do not have the angst or guilt of Americans.

Valve Bounce

29th September 2009, 04:25

Porsche never made up the numbers. Through TAG they combined with Mclaren between 1984 to 1987 and won 5 world titles [3 drivers with Lauda and Prost and 2 constructors].

For one with such self esteemed knowledge of F1, you have little ( or NO) idea of Porsche's record as a manufacturer. :rolleyes:

Valve Bounce

29th September 2009, 04:28

You doubt it was run that way?

Caubet said that Renault F1 is there because Flavio built the team and Fernando and that it is the reality and they don't want to suggest anything else. But the team will be run a bit differently now that the auto manufacturer will conduct things.

He also said that Renault will maintain a good relationship with Flavio.

Moral courage from Fernando, Caubet and Bernard Rey - Renault F1 president.

I love the French they are like the Frank Williams of the world, independant, always elegant in political incorrectness and get away with everything, and do not have the angst or guilt of Americans.

Yeah right!! so tell us, why did Sleazy Flav depart Renault? And I think only you believe that Sleazy Flav got away with his race fixing. :rolleyes:

harsha

29th September 2009, 07:07

don't make every topic a Sleazy Flav topic

Valve Bounce

29th September 2009, 07:59

don't make every topic a Sleazy Flav topic

Part of a general discussion that somehow degenerated into Sleaze. I actually started off talking about Toyota and manufacturers in general.

truefan72

29th September 2009, 09:20

I think what's going on in Toyota is inner turmoil and strife which will sort itself out by the start of 2010. I think Glock should be driving for them next year,but I'm sure within his team there are some detractors. internal politics combined with associations play a big role in driver seats as well. It may also be the case of Toyota trying to go for a fresh start completely, which i wouldn't blame them. Or maybe, just maybe, they have already secured their lineup for 2010 with an announcement coming in Japan.

IMO they need to scale down operations a bit more, and merge with a Super Aguri, where the team would be called Super Aguri Toyota ( although SA affiliation with Honda might be too big of a hurdle to jump, so maybe a Nismo or something)

i believe the future of F1 teams are in the form of manufactures strongly tied to or in allegiance with a racing outfit. In many case the Manufactures has a strong say in development and technology but are not burdened with dueling interests of running a racing team as well as the commercial enterprise. Much in the way Mercedes and McLaren are aligned.

With the exception of the Ferrari ( which is a unique situation) and the 2 Alonso renault WDC's, the most championships won and success by manufactures were those when they were strongly aligned to a team and many times in partnership with them. both sides benefited.

Sonic

29th September 2009, 11:33

My personal opinion on this is that Toyota should have given up 2/3 years ago - 2005 was a great year for them but that seems to have been a unique situation not repeated since.

After 2007 when they were soundly beaten by the customer Williams team they should have wound up the race team and thrown their weight behind Sir Franks boys. Toyota could have slashed their budget yet still have had their badge on a car that (with the proper budget) would have been a race winner.

I don't understand the current tread of manufactures owning teams - there is plently of kudos for putting your engine in the back of a top car (as Mercedes have proved for years).

veeten

29th September 2009, 14:31

I don't understand the current tread of manufactures owning teams - there is plently of kudos for putting your engine in the back of a top car (as Mercedes have proved for years).

The reason for this stems from the 'honeyed words' from Max & Bernie back in the late 90's, in their attempts to make the series more Manufacturer-centric. As many of the teams were disappearing, being constantly resold, or bought out by the manufacturers, the quality of the fields suffered as these 'new owners' were more interested in promotion than performance.

But, then again, this is what happens when you have people involved that have no experience in motorsport, trying to run a team in the most competitive of levels. And now, with the financial situation of the last few years, it is becoming even harder to justify such a program to the Boards of Director without any significant return on that initial investment.

ioan

29th September 2009, 19:11

I love the French they are like the Frank Williams of the world, independant, always elegant in political incorrectness and get away with everything, and do not have the angst or guilt of Americans.

You're cracking me up. (I would use a great smiley here but I have smiley interdiction from pino.)

Valve Bounce

29th September 2009, 22:38

.......................- there is plently of kudos for putting your engine in the back of a top car (as Mercedes have proved for years).

Actually, I think John Cooper beat Mercedes to it. :p :
............and I almost forgot, so did Auto Union. :up:

Rollo

30th September 2009, 00:57

Porsche never made up the numbers. Through TAG they combined with Mclaren between 1984 to 1987 and won 5 world titles [3 drivers with Lauda and Prost and 2 constructors].

Never?

Porsche Formula One cars were entered in GPs from 1957 to 1964, and their only GP victory came at the hands of Dan Gurney driving a Porsche 804 at the 1962 French GP at Rouen.
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr106.html

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2607/3849296395_9ee2bc8fbf.jpg

If memory serves me right* Porsche supplied engines for Footwork or Arrows (or whatever the heck they decided to call themselves that week) for the ill-fated A11C. The V12 didn't secure any points that season.

Valve Bounce

30th September 2009, 03:51

Well, the guy has been telling everyone that he has followed F1 longer than anyone else, and he knows everything about F1. I don't want to say much more because what I want to say, pino would ping me for sure.

Rollo

30th September 2009, 04:13

Actually, I think John Cooper beat Mercedes to it. :p :
............and I almost forgot, so did Auto Union. :up:

Benz (sans Mercedes) had the Tropfenwagen which ran in GPs from 1923 onwards. Whereas the Auto Union dates from Avus in 1933.
http://forix.autosport.com/8w/prewar/benz-rh.jpg

Valve Bounce

30th September 2009, 04:35

Benz (sans Mercedes) had the Tropfenwagen which ran in GPs from 1923 onwards. Whereas the Auto Union dates from Avus in 1933.
http://forix.autosport.com/8w/prewar/benz-rh.jpg

Good Grief!! :eek: Where the heck did you dig that one up from? Did it do any good? Certainly looks weird.

Rollo

30th September 2009, 04:50

It's best results were 4th and 5th at the 1923 Italian GP at Monza. It wasn't a terribly bad car but suffered from a lack of power compared with the FIATs.

It had a 2L inline six which was really remarkable for 1923, being DOHC, four valves per cylinder, and put out 300bhp.

DexDexter

30th September 2009, 07:37

Never?

If memory serves me right* Porsche supplied engines for Footwork or Arrows (or whatever the heck they decided to call themselves that week) for the ill-fated A11C. The V12 didn't secure any points that season.

Yep, they supplied Footwork with terrible overweight underpowered engines in 1991. Well they soon abandoned them.

Knock-on

30th September 2009, 10:40

Benz (sans Mercedes) had the Tropfenwagen which ran in GPs from 1923 onwards. Whereas the Auto Union dates from Avus in 1933.
http://forix.autosport.com/8w/prewar/benz-rh.jpg

It would go better if the driver sat the right way around and they put that bobble somewhere else :D

Valve Bounce

30th September 2009, 10:57

Benz (sans Mercedes) had the Tropfenwagen which ran in GPs from 1923 onwards. Whereas the Auto Union dates from Avus in 1933.
http://forix.autosport.com/8w/prewar/benz-rh.jpg

It would be most interesting if someone could add a picture of a current F1 car head to head with this car, at the same scale. I'd love to see that.

AndyL

30th September 2009, 11:04

veeten

30th September 2009, 16:06

... in the words of Astro the dog, "Rut-ro..." :uhoh:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=39170

Brown, Jon Brow

30th September 2009, 16:08

Dave B

30th September 2009, 16:29

James Allen has a similar story to the Pitpass one linked above:

Toyota’s F1 team principal Tadashi Yamashima has issued a stark warning today that the involvement of the world’s biggest car maker in F1 could come to an end soon.

He described the situation as ‘unclear’, but warned that it depended on how the car business was doing.

“We will participate for now,” he said. “We have to consider a variety of things in relation to our core business. Our participation is unclear, depending on our financial results.”

Full story: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/honda-bmw-toyota-next-to-quit-f1-as-sales-plummet/

Copse

30th September 2009, 19:46

What I don't understand is the general antagonism against Toyota. So what if they haven't done great in the past 7 years, despite large budgets? That does not hurt anyone but themselves.

My opinion is that all teams that stick to it, keep trying and keep fighting despite lack of success are worthy of support. That should be true regardless of if they are small, poor, complete backmarkers like Minardi were, or if they are part of a larger company, midfield and dull like Toyota or BMW.

Those of you who were happy to see BMW and Honda go, and are exuberantly hoping for an announcement from Toyota, why? How is it a positive thing to lose a team, an engine supplier, and its sponsors contributing to the sport?

jens

30th September 2009, 21:20

Well, what can I say? I personally think it's really about time for Toyota to seek for a new challenge. :) 2009 with its huge rule shake-up was "now or never" for them. A few times they have got close to that first elusive win, but generally the season has been disappointing and with such endless waiting on budget and confirmation of drivers they won't do any good to their 2010 outlooks anyhow, so why bother? DTM/LMS will be better suited for Toyota, where I think they could succeed at the top level. ;) Can't wait to see them there.

This may also be Trulli's last season too, unless Manor pick him up as a development driver... :)

As I've mentioned in couple of other threads, IMO Gascoyne's Lotus is a far more likely bet for Trulli's destination than Manor. ;) The main question is whether Jarno himself is interested in joining Lotus, but I would be surprised if Gascoyne & Co even won't consider him.

Valve Bounce

30th September 2009, 23:29

Dave B

1st October 2009, 09:36

What I don't understand is the general antagonism against Toyota. So what if they haven't done great in the past 7 years, despite large budgets? That does not hurt anyone but themselves.
I can only speak for myself but I'm massively disappointed that Toyota have failed. With such a phenomenal budget it surely must rank as the biggest wasted opportunity that F1's ever known. They squandered hundreds of millions to rack up the occasional podium but never once looked like anything other than a corporate behemoth with no sense of direction, and with the board back in Japan having to hold meetings to decide things which should have been left to the quick reactions of the race team.

If they leave it's unlikely they'll be sorely missed, but it would be a genuine shame nevertheless. One less team, two less opportunities for drivers, and the small matter of several hundred workers out of their jobs.

woody2goody

1st October 2009, 12:00

Is it just me that thinks Toyota have done decently this season, and last?

If they do leave it's leaving two very good drivers high and dry.

I hope Jarno and Timo can find another drive.

Copse

1st October 2009, 17:01

I'm confused here. Are you sure you are in the right forum? I am not aware that anyone here is happy to see BMW and Honda go, not Toyota. Do you have a link to any of that?

You might be right :)

People do seem very eager at creating a thread or posts as soon as bad news come out of the Toyota camp. However, I may be misinterpreting the enthusiasm over news to speculate about and draw conclusions from as enthusiasm over the content.

I guess the lesson is: Just because people like to talk about it doesn't mean they like it.

jens

1st October 2009, 18:46

Is it just me that thinks Toyota have done decently this season, and last?

If 'decent' is better than the previous years of '06 (35 pts) and '07 (13 pts), then yes, but that's about it. 2009 should have been about top challenge. Still feels a bit odd that three teams, who seemed to be "the ones to beat" at a certain phase of winter testing (Ferrari/Toyota/BMW) ended up in disappointment.

For three years in a row Toyota hasn't been the worst factory team (in 07-08 that honour belonged to Honda and now BMW/Renault are fighting over that position), but that's not good enough. A team should be aiming to be the best, not to avoid being the last. :)

ClarkFan

2nd October 2009, 00:08

For one with such self esteemed knowledge of F1, you have little ( or NO) idea of Porsche's record as a manufacturer. :rolleyes:
But how strict is your definition of a manufacturer's record?

Sure, the TAG-Porsche turbo engines were TAG and very little Porsche, but others have done much the same. How much "Renault" is in the V-10 and V-8 engines produced since 1989? The turbo V-6s were clearly Renault products, but the normally aspirated engines are also seriously outsourced. There has been a lot of "badge engineering" in F1, and if you get strict about the engines in McLaren from 1983-1987 not being "Porsche," other manufacturers also have some confessions to make.

Things are not always what they seem, skim milk masquerades as cream. (Or in Renault's case, cream masquerades as skim milk... ;) )

ClarkFan

Valve Bounce

2nd October 2009, 00:40

But how strict is your definition of a manufacturer's record?

Sure, the TAG-Porsche turbo engines were TAG and very little Porsche, but others have done much the same. How much "Renault" is in the V-10 and V-8 engines produced since 1989? The turbo V-6s were clearly Renault products, but the normally aspirated engines are also seriously outsourced. There has been a lot of "badge engineering" in F1, and if you get strict about the engines in McLaren from 1983-1987 not being "Porsche," other manufacturers also have some confessions to make.

Things are not always what they seem, skim milk masquerades as cream. (Or in Renault's case, cream masquerades as skim milk... ;) )

ClarkFan

I refer you to post #24 by Rollo, which is self explanatory. If my memory serves me correctly, that was the only time Porsche raced in F1 as a manufacturer, vis a vis an engine supplier.

Ranger

2nd October 2009, 03:35

Seems they were simply chasing bigger fish when they didn't take up their option on Glock. They are going after Kubica and Raikkonen.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79109

truefan72

2nd October 2009, 04:19

If 'decent' is better than the previous years of '06 (35 pts) and '07 (13 pts), then yes, but that's about it. 2009 should have been about top challenge. Still feels a bit odd that three teams, who seemed to be "the ones to beat" at a certain phase of winter testing (Ferrari/Toyota/BMW) ended up in disappointment.

For three years in a row Toyota hasn't been the worst factory team (in 07-08 that honour belonged to Honda and now BMW/Renault are fighting over that position), but that's not good enough. A team should be aiming to be the best, not to avoid being the last. :)

also they should have taken full advantage of the "advantage" they had along with williams and BrawnGP in the first few races of the year. How they did not win in Bahrein is still a mystery, and they should have won one more. So to me 2009 was still a bit dissapointing, but an improvement nonetheless

BTW Glock and Toyota dispelled the rumors and false reporting of his dismissal. All they did was offer him (and trulli) the opportunity to sign somewhere else if he liked since they still were not in a postion to sign off on the 2010 budget. It was a classy gesture by the team to not impede the careers of the drivers due to board room wrangling and they knew that the silly season was upon us. A lesser team would have refused that option and then screwed both drivers if they did decide to leave (however unlikely)

HenryM

2nd October 2009, 05:43

Seems they were simply chasing bigger fish when they didn't take up their option on Glock. They are going after Kubica and Raikkonen.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79109

like I said :D
but no Glock, so maybe Kubica/Raikkonen + Nakajima? :)

gloomyDAY

2nd October 2009, 06:56

I'm glad they're not withdrawing.

We like Timo very much, [and] he did a great job [in Singapore], but we have a car that is more regularly capable of being on the podium and much closer to the top this year. We are not delivering, and there are things beyond the team and the chassis. - John HowettI tend to disagree with that statement. Jarno and Timo locked up the front row in Bahrain and had a win ahead of them with clean air in front of both cars. The problem? Toyota's strategists put Jarno on the wrong tire choice in the second stint and was eventually leaped by Button.

macksrallye

2nd October 2009, 07:50

Valve Bounce

2nd October 2009, 07:53

I tend to agree with you gloomy but how many times has the team come up with a good strategy & the drivers not been able to execute it. I certainly don't know but I'm sure it has happened somewhere along the line.

Let's face it - they need a really good strategist to guide the team to success. And we know that Pat Symonds is available.

christophulus

2nd October 2009, 08:03

Let's face it - they need a really good strategist to guide the team to success. And we know that Pat Symonds is available.

Provided they can wait five years for his ban to expire..

ioan

2nd October 2009, 09:13

But how strict is your definition of a manufacturer's record?

Sure, the TAG-Porsche turbo engines were TAG and very little Porsche, but others have done much the same. How much "Renault" is in the V-10 and V-8 engines produced since 1989? The turbo V-6s were clearly Renault products, but the normally aspirated engines are also seriously outsourced. There has been a lot of "badge engineering" in F1, and if you get strict about the engines in McLaren from 1983-1987 not being "Porsche," other manufacturers also have some confessions to make.

Renault does the design of their F1 engines and outsorces their production. There is a quote about this somewhere, posted by Saint Devote.

Valve Bounce

2nd October 2009, 10:15

Provided they can wait five years for his ban to expire..

Couldn't he do it anonymously via e-mail?

Bezza

2nd October 2009, 13:07

Glock is a good up and coming driver. If Toyota are staying, I would keep hold of him for sure.

Trulli is past it and was never really at it anyway to be honest. For him to be employed by Toyota since late 2004 is woeful, he has never really delivered.

My thinking is that Toyota have said "lets get ourselves a big name driver, and have a crack at finally getting some success - if we don't get one, lets pull out". Thats my prediction anyway.

Dave B

2nd October 2009, 13:20

The trouble is that there are two Toyotas: the F1 team and the car company.

Obviously the F1 team have no intention of quitting, and are making plans for business as usual in 2010. But it's not their decision to make: the board back in Japan are dragging their feet regarding funding, and if reports are to be belived won't make that call until at least January.