Renault get a 2 year suspended ban [Archive]

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 13:26

Don'r really get this bit though;

The FIA has also stated that former team principal Flavio Briatore will face a lifetime ban from involvement in any of its series - and for anyone involved with him.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78770

So, all his drivers he manages are not allowed in F1.......

Max is a revenge dish best served colder than a dominatix' heart! ;)

ioan

21st September 2009, 13:32

So, it's bye bye Flav! :wave:
One scumbag less.

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 13:34

You'd have to say the quick reaction by the Reggie to kick 'da management' out of F1 saved their bacon....

My opinion is that Pat's loyalty to Flav has cost him dear.

F1boat

21st September 2009, 13:34

I feel a bit sorry for Flavio, but I am happy that Renault are not banned. Flavio should have admitted his guilt, however. Grandprix.com states:
"In determining that such instructions should be applicable for an unlimited period, the World Motor Sport Council has had regard not only to the severity of the breach in which Mr. Briatore was complicit but also to his actions in continuing to deny his participation in the breach despite all the evidence."

ioan

21st September 2009, 13:37

So, all his drivers he manages are not allowed in F1.......

Yep, that's right:

Furthermore, it does not intend to renew any Superlicence granted to any driver who is associated (through a management contract or otherwise) with Mr. Briatore, or any entity or individual associated with Mr. Briatore. In determining that such instructions should be applicable for an unlimited period, the World Motor Sport Council has had regard not only to the severity of the breach in which Mr. Briatore was complicit but also to his actions in continuing to deny his participation in the breach despite all the evidence.

So they are all free agents now.
IMO Max did them all a favor with his move. :D

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 13:37

Full FIA verdict;

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78771

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 13:39

Yep, that's right:

So they are all free agents now.
IMO Max did them all a favor with his move. :D

OK, so, legally, are the FIA allowed to terminate valid contracts in such a way? What is to stop Flavio holding drivers to contracts unless they pay to break them?

ioan

21st September 2009, 13:39

You'd have to say the quick reaction by the Reggie to kick 'da management' out of F1 saved their bacon....

My opinion is that Pat's loyalty to Flav has cost him dear.

5 years ban in any FIA sanctioned motorsport series, not that many teams would want to get him on board right now after the cheat label has been attached to his forehead.

ioan

21st September 2009, 13:43

OK, so, legally, are the FIA allowed to terminate valid contracts in such a way? What is to stop Flavio holding drivers to contracts unless they pay to break them?

The FIA has the right not to renew the superlicenses of the drivers that are associated with Flav because the FIA doesn't want any of it's sanctioned series to be associated with a scumbag.

Because Flav is the reason to all these happening the drivers are entitled to break their contracts with him because otherwise they would lose their right to work which is situated above anything their contracts with Flav might contain.

They can also void the contracts based on not wanting to be associated with a high profile cheater, and I expect them all to do so in order to keep their image clean.

Basically they are all free agents unless Flav gives up on running his own driver management company.

veeten

21st September 2009, 13:43

First McLaren's $100 Million fine, and now Renault gets a 2-year ban.

Don't mess with the FIA, they will have your 'nuts' in a pretty big vice and are more-than-willing to turn the screw. :eek: :o

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 13:45

First McLaren's $100 Million fine, and now Renault gets a 2-year ban.

Yes, you can see the consistency oozing out onto the Place de la Concorde, can't you..... ;)

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 13:46

their right to work which is situated above anything their contracts with Flav might contain.

Thanks, makes perfect sense.

veeten

21st September 2009, 13:47

Personally, I believe this makes Goshn's decision about staying in Formula 1 all the easier.

Now, it'll be down to 4 manufacturers and teams scrambling to find engine deals for '10 and beyond.

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 13:49

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78772

We sincerely hope that we can soon put this matter behind us and focus constructively on the future. We will issue further information in the next few days

I bet they quit....

Mark

21st September 2009, 13:49

As a point of order. It's not a 2 year ban. It's a permanent ban, suspended for 2 years. So if Renault do anything in the next two years they are banned permanently.

Valve Bounce

21st September 2009, 13:50

First McLaren's $100 Million fine, and now Renault gets a 2-year ban.

Don't mess with the FIA, they will have your 'nuts' in a pretty big vice and are more-than-willing to turn the screw. :eek: :o

..........or whip your butt :eek:

wedge

21st September 2009, 13:53

Well, we can definitely rule out Flav taking over Renault if they decide to leave F1.

I wonder if Pat Symonds will be back in F1? He'll be in his 60s!

F1boat

21st September 2009, 13:59

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78772

I bet they quit....

Well, if they quit, I will miss them but in the other hand I will be how to say... smug to see F1 with two or three engines next year, as Toyota will likely quit as well. This oh-so-Puritan view, bans for life etc, I know that most people are happy with the fact that Flav and Ron are gone, but this is no church, really. Cheating should be punished, but this quest for purity... as Irvine said, everybody cheats. I believe him. So with this purity ***, I hope that it will end with the next FIA president. If they catch you - DQ for the rest of the year and finish with this. JMO.

I am evil Homer

21st September 2009, 14:01

Mark

21st September 2009, 14:03

I'm rather disappointed that they just got a suspended ban and that's it. Something like zeroing their points from 2008 would have been appropriate, or even resetting their current 2009 total to zero.

ArrowsFA1

21st September 2009, 14:05

Not much of a penalty for a breach of "unparalleled severity" really is it. Still, Briatore's gone so all's well that ends well. Doesn't it?

I don't think so. The FIA, again, has focused on individuals at the expense of the sport. This decision brushes the incident under the carpet. The action against Briatore and Symonds is similar to that taken against Stepney and Coughlan, and we know how quickly restrictions on them working in motorsport were lifted.

Meanwhile, as far as the world is concerned, Renault will be competing as normal this weekend.

Mark

21st September 2009, 14:05

Who is currently under contract to Flavio then?

ArrowsFA1

21st September 2009, 14:09

It has been decided that for an 'unlimited period' the FIA will not sanction any event, championship, cup, trophy, challenge or series involving Briatore in any capacity...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78770

Isn't Briatore involved in GP2?

CNR

21st September 2009, 14:09

Who is currently under contract to Flavio then?

At the moment Briatore manages Fernando Alonso, Mark Webber, Heikki Kovalainen, Romain Grosjean in F1.

Piquet

koko0703

21st September 2009, 14:09

I'm surprized to see no fine was issued for Renault. I think all these verdicts force Renault to stay in Formula 1 for another 2 years because 1. no money is lost (except for FIA investigation cost that they claim to pay for) and 2. their image will go even worse if they run away right now. I wish all the best for Renault.

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 14:10

Who is currently under contract to Flavio then?

Quite, so was this a subliminal 'favour' to Ferrari?

F1boat

21st September 2009, 14:11

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78770

Isn't Briatore involved in GP2?

I am not sure that GP 2 is a FIA series. But Max may want to replace it with F2.

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 14:11

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78770

Isn't Briatore involved in GP2?

Not any more....

Mark

21st September 2009, 14:15

At the moment Briatore manages Fernando Alonso, Mark Webber, Heikki Kovalainen, Romain Grosjean in F1.

Piquet

So in that case they had better all get out of their contracts before the weekend or face exclusion from the Singapore GP?!

ArrowsFA1

21st September 2009, 14:16

I am not sure that GP 2 is a FIA series. But Max may want to replace it with F2.
Do you know? I hadn't thought of that :p ;)

harsha

21st September 2009, 14:17

The World Motor Sport Council considers Renault F1's breaches relating to the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix to be of unparalleled severity. Renault F1's breaches not only compromised the integrity of the sport but also endangered the lives of spectators, officials, other competitors and Nelson Piquet Jr. himself. The World Motor Sport Council considers that offences of this severity merit permanent disqualification from the FIA Formula One World Championship. However, having regard to the points in mitigation mentioned above and in particular the steps taken by Renault F1 to identify and address the failings within its team and condemn the actions of the individuals involved, the WMSC has decided to suspend Renault F1's disqualification until the end of the 2011 season. The World Motor Sport Council will only activate this disqualification if Renault F1 is found guilty of a comparable breach during that time.

my question is....what exactly does a "found guilty of a comparable breach during that time" constitute?

Mark

21st September 2009, 14:17

So in that case they had better all get out of their contracts before the weekend or face exclusion from the Singapore GP?!

Ah, no. It won't 'renew' the licence of any driver associated with him. So those drivers are ok for this season.

Mark

21st September 2009, 14:18

my question is....what exactly does a "found guilty of a comparable breach during that time" constitute?

You can't have a comparable breach to an unparalleled one I suppose?

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 14:19

So in that case they had better all get out of their contracts before the weekend or face exclusion from the Singapore GP?!

They will be terminated by 'Force Majeure' - as Ioan alluded to earlier, if the terms of their contract stop them from being able to work, the contract will be deemed null and void.

Now, at the moment, all FFBB contracted pilots are not allowed near an FIA sanctioned event, so they cannot work......

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 14:21

my question is....what exactly does a "found guilty of a comparable breach during that time" constitute?

Found guilty of race fixing again.......

wedge

21st September 2009, 14:22

Also, I wonder if Flav will be kick out of QPR for breaching 'fit and proper' businessman test?

Somebody

21st September 2009, 14:25

So in that case they had better all get out of their contracts before the weekend or face exclusion from the Singapore GP?!
Aren't superlicences renewed annually? That gives them until either the turn of the year or the start of next season (I forget which) to get out.

Not that I expect they'll delay in any way, but still.

[And, about the link I posted in the other (now locked) thread - I *know* the writer was obviously not an F1 fan, and got mixed up on several points. I posted it because he was so obviously an outsider who had decided F1 was a mud pit, not in spite of it. This sort of thing does real damage to F1's reputation, and covering it up for a bit only makes it worse when it eventually does come out.]

N. Jones

21st September 2009, 14:26

Don'r really get this bit though;

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78770

So, all his drivers he manages are not allowed in F1.......

Max is a revenge dish best served colder than a dominatix' heart! ;)

The BBC says this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8266090.stm):

"The Italian has been banned indefinitely from attending any FIA events. A route back into F1 was made more difficult for Briatore as the FIA declared it would not grant a license to any team he was involved with or renew a Superlicence granted to any driver associated with him."

Wow - he loses his agency business too?

So - RenaultF1 - suspended sentence because upper mgmt took steps to deal with those who broke the rules.
Flav & Symmonds - bans for five years for Mr. Symmonds and indefinite for Mr. Briatore AND Flavio will be unable to manage any team or driver.

I think that is a fair punishment.

CNR

21st September 2009, 14:27

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-fia-to-act-on-renault-driver-management/

One current F1 star was reputedly offered a 15-year deal – with 50% of his income going to FFBB – when he was still in karts. He declined to take up the offer.

Briatore gets a f bomb from me

BDunnell

21st September 2009, 14:32

Meanwhile, as far as the world is concerned, Renault will be competing as normal this weekend.

But doesn't that reflect the fact that this sorry business won't actually cause any measurable damage to F1?

Robinho

21st September 2009, 14:35

don't really think Flav will really give a s**t, he's never been bothered by the racing, just the business, and he's no worries about needing a living from F1.

the 2 yr suspended ban is little more than a slap on the wrist, i think this shows that the FIA are keen for Renault to stay and Renault have indicated the same to the FIA - if they'd chosen to take last years points and prize money they could have ended up with effectively a £50m fine, i don't think Renault would have hung around in that case.

i think it stinks that Piquet gets out of this with no sanction - the guy was arguuably going to be out of a job last year yet managed to crash his way into a new contract wirth in excess of £1m for thus year, for which he is still being paid despite being dropped. so he's has a net increase of earnings of £1m for being part of the scheme, yet is still a free agent - albit i can't imagine any team in F1 touching him with a barge pole, he could arguably go and make his money in another series elsewhere (IRL, DTM, NASCAR?)

harsha

21st September 2009, 14:39

where is the consistency in decision making...Mclaren got a hefty fine with they spygate conspiracy and Renault get let off with a rap on the knuckles :?:

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 14:41

where is the consistency in decision making...Mclaren got a hefty fine with they spygate conspiracy and Renault get let off with a rap on the knuckles :?:

It's been filed along with hens teeth and rocking horse poo. ;)

ArrowsFA1

21st September 2009, 14:45

But doesn't that reflect the fact that this sorry business won't actually cause any measurable damage to F1?
Given the (non-motorsport) press coverage this has been getting I do think those reading it may wonder why a team found guilty in this way will be racing next weekend.

ioan

21st September 2009, 14:50

I don't think so. The FIA, again, has focused on individuals at the expense of the sport.

Excuse me?! What expense of the sport?
It would have been at the expense of the sport if Renault were to be thrown out because of one scumbags dirty dealings.

You're again trying to pin everything on the FIA when the fault lies with that bloody cheater Flab.

ioan

21st September 2009, 14:52

Quite, so was this a subliminal 'favour' to Ferrari?

Just leave Ferrari out of it.

ioan

21st September 2009, 14:53

So in that case they had better all get out of their contracts before the weekend or face exclusion from the Singapore GP?!

Their superlicenses are not up, they just won't be renewed for next season if they do not severe any ties with Flav.

ioan

21st September 2009, 14:56

At the moment Briatore manages Fernando Alonso, Mark Webber, Heikki Kovalainen, Romain Grosjean in F1.

Piquet

I don't think that Flav manages Alonso since he left for McLaren at the end of 2006.

BDunnell

21st September 2009, 14:58

Given the (non-motorsport) press coverage this has been getting I do think those reading it may wonder why a team found guilty in this way will be racing next weekend.

I doubt that many will truly care. It's not even the biggest sport-related story on the BBC News front page today - Bobby Robson's memorial service is.

ioan

21st September 2009, 15:01

I can't help but think that if this was a small team like Force India involved in all this, the punishment would have been alot more harsh. It would have been a ban for sure, but with the threat of losing a major car manufacturer and the supply of engines to other teams, the FIA have chosen the lighter option. Not exactly living up to the hype and threats Mr Mosley put out to the press in recent days. Flavio took the brunt of the flack, but at his age and with his wealth, I'm sure he's got enough out of F1 not to worry too much.

It feels like abit of an anti climax to be honest... :(

I bet if they banned Renault from F1 you would be equally unhappy. :rolleyes:

ioan

21st September 2009, 15:02

I seem to remember you having quite a different view when that someone was Mike Coughlan ;)

How many people were involved in that case and how many in this one?
How did Renault react? and how did McLaren react?

Just a couple questions for you! ;)

ioan

21st September 2009, 15:04

where is the consistency in decision making...Mclaren got a hefty fine with they spygate conspiracy and Renault get let off with a rap on the knuckles :?:

McLaren denied their wrongdoings for half a year and accused evreyone else but themselves.
Renault did their internal investigation, got rid of the scumbags and pleaded guilty.

Just a couple of the details that escaped to your thorough analysis! ;)

BDunnell

21st September 2009, 15:05

How many people were involved in that case and how many in this one?
How did Renault react? and how did McLaren react?

Just a couple questions for you! ;)

How they reacted has nothing at all to do with it. Nor, in reality - nor indeed law - does the number of people involved. The fact that you have made up your mind that one offence is worse than the other does not render that fact.

BDunnell

21st September 2009, 15:06

McLaren denied their wrongdoings for half a year and accused evreyone else but themselves.
Renault did their internal investigation, got rid of the scumbags and pleaded guilty.

Just a couple of the details that escaped to your analysis! ;)

ioan, the addition of a ;) to posts like that one really doesn't come across well. In fact, it's downright rude.

ioan

21st September 2009, 15:08

Given the (non-motorsport) press coverage this has been getting I do think those reading it may wonder why a team found guilty in this way will be racing next weekend.

For the very same reason a team found guilty of cheating during 2007 went racing the next week end after the WMSC hearing.

BDunnell

21st September 2009, 15:10

For the very same reason a team found guilty of cheating during 2007 went racing the next week end after the WMSC hearing.

That is a very reasonable point. Again, the actual damage done to F1 has been zero. How many sponsors have actually been put off by either case? And I suspect that most non-enthusiasts think there's a bit of a whiff of corruption, greed, etc around the sport anyway, by its very nature.

Daniel

21st September 2009, 15:10

How many people were involved in that case and how many in this one?
How did Renault react? and how did McLaren react?

Just a couple questions for you! ;)

It's a fair point. McLaren did everything to hide what had happened whereas Renno threw Flav an Pat out ASAP when they learnt the truth. You can't help but feel that McLaren could have escaped such a harsh penalty had they just said '**** a couple of rogue employees were up to something but we've got rid of them and yes they did do this and that etc etc'. Renault acted as best as could have been expected after they heard about the allegations whereas McLaren didn't. Renault have a permanent ban hanging over them now, let's not forget that.....

AndyRAC

21st September 2009, 15:11

ioan

21st September 2009, 15:13

It's a fair point. McLaren did everything to hide what had happened whereas Renno threw Flav an Pat out ASAP when they learnt the truth. You can't help but feel that McLaren could have escaped such a harsh penalty had they just said '**** a couple of rogue employees were up to something but we've got rid of them and yes they did do this and that etc etc'. Renault acted as best as could have been expected after they heard about the allegations whereas McLaren didn't. Renault have a permanent ban hanging over them now, let's not forget that.....

Exactly. The difference in the approach the two teams took is enormous and the result is well deserved.

PS: before I get accused of fanboyism I'd like to point it out that I'm not a fan of either teams.

ioan

21st September 2009, 15:15

So with tongue firmly in cheek, any team can commit a serious offence, and get a suspended sentence, as the FiA/Bernie are desperate to keep as many Manufacturers/Teams as possible.......

.....something isn't right!!

That's the wrong way to look at it.
Just think that in either case (McLaren or Renault) hundreds of people would lose their jobs if the team is thrown out of the sport.

PS: I'm a bit surprised how many people would have wanted Renault to be thrown out of F1 even though McLaren were excused for a big offense 2 years ago.

BDunnell

21st September 2009, 15:16

Exactly. The difference in the approach the two teams took is enormous and the result is well deserved.

In truth, there is no comparison that can be made between the two, not morally and certainly not 'legally'. The only fair thing is for both cases to be judged individually; no precedents were set by the McLaren case that were in any way relevant to the Renault one.

ioan

21st September 2009, 15:17

First question: Nobody knows for sure how many were involved with this incident. Renault delivered a damage limitation plea.

You mean everyone in the Renault team was aware about Flav and Pat ordering Jr. to crash?
Maybe they did hold a referendum just before teh race to see if everyone agrees?

Second question: Mclaren reported the spying incident to the FIA, Piquet reported the Renault incident.

;) ;) ;)

Wrong answer. A copy shop worker reported the spying incident to Ferrari who reported it to the FIA.

Daniel

21st September 2009, 15:20

Wasn't Mike Coughlan released with immediate effect back in 2007 for his role in the spying saga?

Under that basis why on earth did everyone scream scapegoat when Dave Ryan was sacked??

Struggling here, help me out...
IIRC Coughlan was put on administrative leave or something like that.

Renno fired their team boss - McLaren simply put someone who was obviously involved in shady doings on 'administrative leave'

As for the Dave Ryan thing that was very much a facepalm incident and I don't know why anyone got fired for that. Comically stupid little incident and tbh I don't think it's comparable to either of the other incidents. It was a cockup., nothing more nothing less.

ioan

21st September 2009, 15:20

Wasn't Mike Coughlan released with immediate effect back in 2007 for his role in the spying saga?

No, he wasn't.

McLaren carried out their own internal investigation and decided there was nothing fishy.
They later suspended Coughlan but he was not fired until a few months later when it was obvious for everyone that McLaren made used of the Ferrari data.

BDunnell

21st September 2009, 15:23

IIRC Coughlan was put on administrative leave or something like that.

Renno fired their team boss - McLaren simply put someone who was obviously involved in shady doings on 'administrative leave'

It's all very well for us to say 'obviously involved' now, but there are issues of employment law to be considered here. In this respect, there are probably further differences between the two cases. As I said, drawing comparisons, whether moral, legal or factual, between them is irrelevant.

ArrowsFA1

21st September 2009, 15:28

Excuse me?! What expense of the sport?
It would have been at the expense of the sport if Renault were to be thrown out because of one scumbags dirty dealings.

You're again trying to pin everything on the FIA when the fault lies with that bloody cheater Flab.
Yes, I am critical of the FIA, or rather Max's stewardship of the FIA, because I don't think the issue of cheating has been dealt with. Renault - the team - were charged by the FIA and found guilty of the charges brought against them. Effectively their penalty is to be told "don't do it again." This from the WMSC that described Renault's breach of the rules as being of "unparalleled severity".

I doubt that many will truly care. It's not even the biggest sport-related story on the BBC News front page today - Bobby Robson's memorial service is.
Well it is the headline story on http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/ at the moment, but I guess you're right. Attention will focus elsewhere very soon.

Daniel

21st September 2009, 15:29

It's all very well for us to say 'obviously involved' now, but there are issues of employment law to be considered here. In this respect, there are probably further differences between the two cases. As I said, drawing comparisons, whether moral, legal or factual, between them is irrelevant.
Fair point. But then again I'm sure Coughlan coughed up to being in possession of the Ferrari docs so his involvement was most likely known about. Of course I'm speculating but it's not impossible that McLaren merely wanted to be seen to be doing the bare minimum that needed to be done whilst not doing anything which was a clear admission of guilt.

2 years later people still think McLaren did nothing wrong yet no one will ever doubt that Flabio was guilty.

I think this sends a clear message, do something wrong and you'll be punished - try to cover it up and we'll rip your nuts off.

ioan

21st September 2009, 15:32

2 years later people still think McLaren did nothing wrong yet no one will ever doubt that Flabio was guilty.

I don't know why but I'm not surprised. ;)

I think this sends a clear message, do something wrong and you'll be punished - try to cover it up and we'll rip your nuts off.

Sums it up perfectly.

ArrowsFA1

21st September 2009, 15:38

For the very same reason a team found guilty of cheating during 2007 went racing the next week end after the WMSC hearing.
Yup. McLaren and Renault (twice) have been found guilty by the WMSC of the charges brought against them and have continued racing. BAR-Honda, on the other hand, were banned for 2 races for having an illegal fuel tank.

Daniel

21st September 2009, 15:39

I don't know why but I'm not surprised. ;)

:)

It's one of the things which annoys me most on this forum. IIRC SGWilko was very vocal in his defence of McLaren before the hearing and as soon as it came out that the allegations were true he (quite rightly) changed his tune and realised that what had happened was serious and you have to respect him for that. Others however simply don't want to go back on what they said or are too stupid to understand what went on and if it were up to me these sorts of people would be banned from this forum.

Daniel

21st September 2009, 15:41

Yup. McLaren, Renault (twice) have been found guilty by the WMSC of the charges brought against them and have continued racing. BAR-Honda, on the other hand, were banned for 2 races for having an illegal fuel tank.
and Citroen got a 1 minute penalty in Rally Australia for running unhomologated anti-rollbar links :p

ioan

21st September 2009, 15:43

Others however simply don't want to go back on what they said or are too stupid to understand what went on and if it were up to me these sorts of people would be banned from this forum.

I wouldn't ban them, they are funny in their attempts to twist reality to suit their POV. ;)

Daniel

21st September 2009, 15:51

I wouldn't ban them, they are funny in their attempts to twist reality to suit their POV. ;)
Nah, I'd ban them. There are certain things which are up for debate and there are always different POV's and different slants on what is going on but there are some things which are simply not up for discussion or debate.

koko0703

21st September 2009, 15:52

ioan

21st September 2009, 16:03

After reading all the comparison between McLaren's spy-gate and Renault's crash-gate, it was definitely alot easier for Renault to plead gulity. Renault are not winning anything right now or back then (OK, one race for that matter) and are already filled with rumors of pulling out of the sports, so being kicked out of F1 won't hurt as much. On the other hand, McLaren was fighting for the title in 2007 and unlike Renault, their main source of business is racing so they had everything to defend themselves. All factors in addition to F1 world's concern of losing another manufacturer have worked nicely for Renault today.

Life is always about circumstances and how you control them and put them to your use.
Renault are clearly a much smarter bunch than the McLaren bunch back in 2007. They weighed the situation properly and knew exactly how to act without dragging the company name through the mud for months.

IMO this case only highlights how stupidly Ron Dennis acted 2 years ago and how his big ego cost the team 100 millions and lot of lost image and probably will cost them their partnership with Mercedes after 2011.

ArrowsFA1

21st September 2009, 16:18

They weighed the situation properly and knew exactly how to act...
When there were rumours (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78580) of a "fix" immediately after the race did they act then? When Piquet (allegedly (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78704)) spoke to Charlie Whiting at the Brazilian GP last year did they act then? When Piquet made his formal statement to the FIA did they act then? Or did they act days before they were due to appear before the WMSC?

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 16:21

:)

It's one of the things which annoys me most on this forum. IIRC SGWilko was very vocal in his defence of McLaren before the hearing and as soon as it came out that the allegations were true he (quite rightly) changed his tune and realised that what had happened was serious and you have to respect him for that. Others however simply don't want to go back on what they said or are too stupid to understand what went on and if it were up to me these sorts of people would be banned from this forum.

Oh blast - now I'm infamous.... :laugh:

henners88

21st September 2009, 16:21

I wouldn't ban them, they are funny in their attempts to twist reality to suit their POV. ;)
:laugh: Sorry I'm laughing my head off here and everyone is coming over to my desk!! If I spot you being biased ioan and twisting things, I'll let you know mate ok. ;)

Nah, I'd ban them. There are certain things which are up for debate and there are always different POV's and different slants on what is going on but there are some things which are simply not up for discussion or debate.
No offence to you Daniel, but its not just the Mclaren fans on here that twist circumstances. It seems for certain individuals that its all about the team in question rather than having a point of view. One person I can think of had 3 very strong opinions about defending on track and said in one instance:

"If the only way he can pass is by bullying others of the track with very dangerous moves, than he better go to a destruction derby, and take DC with him too."....

Then forgot this stance, and posted this:

"Everyone is entitled to one defensive move, thats already very limiting when you think that they should be racing and not inviting each other to go by. I'd take a driver like Vettel anyday over a pussy like Kovalainen"...

Now if this is not twisting facts to suit a POV, then I don't know what is..

SGWilko

21st September 2009, 16:25

John Glimmerveen

21st September 2009, 16:32

If McLaren had done the same as Renault, would the outcome have been the same? Time for a change at the top of the FIA? (See my article: http://formula-1.suite101.com/article.cfm/renault_given_two_year_suspended_ban)

Daniel

21st September 2009, 16:33

If McLaren had done the same as Renault, would the outcome have been the same? Time for a change at the top of the FIA? (See my article: http://formula-1.suite10.com/article.cfm/immanadvertisingscummylittletossbag)
Please don't advertise your site. It is forbidden on this forum....

Daniel

21st September 2009, 16:36

When there were rumours (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78580) of a "fix" immediately after the race did they act then? When Piquet (allegedly (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78704)) spoke to Charlie Whiting at the Brazilian GP last year did they act then? When Piquet made his formal statement to the FIA did they act then? Or did they act days before they were due to appear before the WMSC?

There are too many if's and but's there.

If it was raised by Piquet Snr in Brazil last year but not officially by Jr then Renno probably wouldn't have known. If they were notified officially then yes that does look bad.

If Renno knew for sure that the allegations Jr was making after Hungary were proven and true then yes they should have fired Flabio and Symonds earlier but we don't know how it went down so speculation is not helpful.

The fact remains that 2 teams cheated but only one chose to get its house in order and admit to what had happened before the trial. McLaren went into the WMSC in 2007 protesting their innocence, Renno went in today admitting that race fixing had occured.

When you walk into court guilty you're always going to be treated differently if you own up to it or if you don't.

aryan

21st September 2009, 16:41

I don't want Renault to have been thrown out of the championship, but zeroing their points for this year would have been a better punishment IMO.

Renault wouldn't quit because of that. They are 8th in the championship, and might be taken over by Force India and finish the season 9th. Surely, there is only a few million dollars there to be gained anyway, and so, zeroing would not have made that much of a financial difference to Renault, but it would have sent the right message to the fans and the world.

aryan

21st September 2009, 16:42

wedge

21st September 2009, 16:43

ioan

21st September 2009, 16:50

ioan

21st September 2009, 16:51

:laugh: Sorry I'm laughing my head off here and everyone is coming over to my desk!! If I spot you being biased ioan and twisting things, I'll let you know mate ok. ;)

Sure. Buy yourself a magnifying glass first, and a mirror might help too! :p

ArrowsFA1

21st September 2009, 16:53

There are too many if's and but's there.
Ok. The bottom line is they acted days before they were due to appear before the WMSC. Better late than never I guess, but hardly the paragons of virtue suggested by ioan's post.

Contrary to ioan's view this case does not highlight how stupidly Ron Dennis acted at all. It does, however, show that senior figures within Renault fixed a Grand Prix by instructing one of their drivers to crash in order to benefit their other driver.

ioan

21st September 2009, 16:54

If McLaren had done the same as Renault, would the outcome have been the same?

You need to be more specific. The same outcome as in which of the 2 cases?

Time for a change at the top of the FIA?

News Flash: There are elections for the FIA presidency in 2 months time and no matter who wins it will not be Max Mosley.

ioan

21st September 2009, 16:58

Ok. The bottom line is they acted days before they were due to appear before the WMSC.

They had only a few weeks since they were announced that they are being investigated. They had to make their own internal investigation before deciding something and that takes time too if it's properly done. As a result they found Flab and Pat guilty and they were fired soon after that.

What exactly were you expecting?
That they have an internal investigation in the blink of an eye like McLaren had and came up with the wrong result and than start a public war how they are innocent, shed a tear here and there and than call it a witch hunt?! :rolleyes:

henners88

21st September 2009, 17:13

Sure. Buy yourself a magnifying glass first, and a mirror might help too! :p
Will do old chap, although the sun isn't strong enough here today to burn my office down with those items... I will take your advice on board which is, if you twist facts or contradict yourself, simply avoid the posters that point this out to you, and preach about others doing exactly that... :p

ioan

21st September 2009, 17:23

Will do old chap, although the sun isn't strong enough here today to burn my office down with those items...

You realize you should have never mentioned this on a public board?! :p

Sonic

21st September 2009, 17:26

PS: I'm a bit surprised how many people would have wanted Renault to be thrown out of F1 even though McLaren were excused for a big offense 2 years ago.

I said then (although I was not a board member at the time) and still think now that Mac should have been banned and I believe the same is true of Renault here. Trying to maintain grid numbers is not a good enough reason to excuse cheating, no matter how many people get thrown under the bus.

ioan

21st September 2009, 17:32

I said then (although I was not a board member at the time) and still think now that Mac should have been banned and I believe the same is true of Renault here. Trying to maintain grid numbers is not a good enough reason to excuse cheating, no matter how many people get thrown under the bus.

That is a view point I appreciate and I share. :)
However given that McLaren wasn't banned it's only right that Renault stay too.

henners88

21st September 2009, 17:33

You realize you should have never mentioned this on a public board?! :p
You're right, sh!t a brick.. Pinoooooooo!!!!

Dave B

21st September 2009, 17:38

What a farce. A driver is ordered to deliberately crash his car and the team's only punishment is two years on the naughty step followed by an immediate cessation of chocolate rations. They should have been stripped of the 2008 constructors points at the very least.

I still find it incredible that Alonso's side of the garage knew nothing of this, blindly accepting a ludicrous strategy with blind faith that it'd all turn out alright in the end, but still... :s

At least Flavio won't be involved in the sport any more, that's one positive.

Sonic

21st September 2009, 17:41

That is a view point I appreciate and I share. :)
However given that McLaren wasn't banned it's only right that Renault stay too.

This is true but it would have been nice for the FIA to have drawn a line today and said its not just Renault who will be banned if they fix a race again it would apply to all teams for any charge of cheating that can be proved.

BeansBeansBeans

21st September 2009, 17:43

They should have been stripped of the 2008 constructors points at the very least.

I don't think that option was open to the WMSC. As far as I'm aware the standings were set in stone, so to speak, in November of last year.

truefan72

21st September 2009, 17:46

well no $100 mill fine

nothing happening to piquet Jr

no deduction of points or anything

the whole thing is a farce and was soley intended on getting briatore out of the port as mosley is head hunting.

Next on his list. Frank Williams

I am truly disgusted that piquet Jr. walks away from this one scot free, after all iot was he who pulled the trigger on the gun. I hope he never sees the inside of an F1 car ever again.

ioan

21st September 2009, 17:56

nothing happening to piquet Jr

He was given immunity, just like Alonso and PDLR in 2007.
I don't remember about you complaining about this practice 2 years ago.

BeansBeansBeans

21st September 2009, 18:04

BDunnell

21st September 2009, 18:05

ioan

21st September 2009, 18:05

I complained back then, and I think Alonso and Pedro de la la whatever should have faced sanctions also...

Yeah, but I was not talking to you! :p :

The FIA loves to reward informants for some reason....

You can accuse about any prosecutor and police in the world for exactly that.

BDunnell

21st September 2009, 18:06

No offence to you Daniel, but its not just the Mclaren fans on here that twist circumstances. It seems for certain individuals that its all about the team in question rather than having a point of view. One person I can think of had 3 very strong opinions about defending on track and said in one instance:

"If the only way he can pass is by bullying others of the track with very dangerous moves, than he better go to a destruction derby, and take DC with him too."....

Then forgot this stance, and posted this:

"Everyone is entitled to one defensive move, thats already very limiting when you think that they should be racing and not inviting each other to go by. I'd take a driver like Vettel anyday over a pussy like Kovalainen"...

Now if this is not twisting facts to suit a POV, then I don't know what is..

Precisely right. But we have had a thread on that sort of matter and the moderators showed no sign of acting, so that's not a discussion for here.

ioan

21st September 2009, 18:06

Mosley wanted Ron Dennis and Flavio Briatore out of the sport. Piquet, Alonso and de la Rosa were able to assist in this and thus were given immunity. The only questions is: Has Max finished, or are there any other enemies?

He's running out of time right now, so I think that unless he manages to take down Bernie with a 'coup de maitre' he will stop here.

F1boat

21st September 2009, 18:14

Maybe it is for the better. From the old boys now only Frank and Ross remain. Frank is unpleasant and cold, but he is not a cheater in my opinion. Ross, I think he is on the edge, but never crossing it. Ross I think is also very smart, smarter than Ron, Flav, or Max. Maybe F1 needs the old boys gone.

hmmm - donuts

21st September 2009, 18:25

Deleted post

Bagwan

21st September 2009, 18:38

I'll miss Flavio .
Every story needs a good villian .
He was the epitome of corpulent opulence , with his sweaty sunglasses reflecting the latest model to be displayed on his boat in the harbour .

I don't feel particularly sorry for him , as only his TV time will change , not his lifestyle . He's got enough to buy your a$$ , and sell it to the highest bidder , which is precisely what eventually got him in trouble .
Sitting on both sides of the table , as he was , was a plum spot , but the shark pool is smaller now , with more money pressure .
In the tobacco days , it was easy .

One thing that I wonder is , who's idea was this ruse in the first place ?

Was it Symmonds ? Would that be why he didn't cop the same plea as Piquet , fearing he might be fired ?

Was it Flavio ? Given he seems so lost when speaking about strategies , could he have come up with this ?

Was it Piquet ? Could he or his father have intimated that he would do anything to stay with the team ?

Was it Renault ? Could the strategists have seen this and alerted Symmonds ?
This suggestion holds water because Renault , with ING sponsoring the GP , would have wanted desperately to win , especially after a long drought , with talk of manufacturers leaving in the air . And , so far , I've only seen this referenced as reasoning for Flavio to have instigated the scam .

Who thought this up ?

ioan

21st September 2009, 18:38

Yes but as you said some days ago this is not a matter for a criminal courts, so on that basis the people who do wrong should be punished. All of them not just half of them. Piquet was more than willing to spill the beans on this, so I fail to see why the immunity card was issued.

That's a very flawed logic based on bias and nothing else. ;)

Robinho

21st September 2009, 18:46

Life is always about circumstances and how you control them and put them to your use.
Renault are clearly a much smarter bunch than the McLaren bunch back in 2007. They weighed the situation properly and knew exactly how to act without dragging the company name through the mud for months.

IMO this case only highlights how stupidly Ron Dennis acted 2 years ago and how his big ego cost the team 100 millions and lot of lost image and probably will cost them their partnership with Mercedes after 2011.

are they are a smarter bunch because of McLaren in 2007?

ioan

21st September 2009, 18:55

are they are a smarter bunch because of McLaren in 2007?

Not sure what exactly you mean with your question.
Anyway Renault are a smarter bunch than McLaren were back in 2007.

ioan

21st September 2009, 18:59

Was it Renault ? Could the strategists have seen this and alerted Symmonds ?
This suggestion holds water because Renault , with ING sponsoring the GP , would have wanted desperately to win , especially after a long drought , with talk of manufacturers leaving in the air . And , so far , I've only seen this referenced as reasoning for Flavio to have instigated the scam .

Symonds was in charge of the race strategy since the Benetton days, he's the one who was calling the shots at Renault just like Brawn did at Ferrari and now with his own team.

We can't blame Renault for something that was clearly Symonds call to make.
I guess that he and Flav had the ideea and than Symonds perfected the details.

ioan

21st September 2009, 19:00

Bias on the part of the FIA? You'll have to explain...

You've got this one wrong old bean, me wasn't talking about the FIA, I was talking about you. :p

Robinho

21st September 2009, 19:01

Not sure what exactly you mean with your question.
Anyway Renault are a smarter bunch than McLaren were back in 2007.

I mean, did the way McLaren got treated because they tried to cover up have any effect on the way Renault acted in this instance - The FIA set a precedent that day in 2007 and Renaults actions can arguably be attributed back to that.

ioan

21st September 2009, 19:10

I mean, did the way McLaren got treated because they tried to cover up have any effect on the way Renault acted in this instance - The FIA set a precedent that day in 2007 and Renaults actions can arguably be attributed back to that.

Maybe, maybe not, impossible to prove either way.

ioan

21st September 2009, 19:12

Do you have access to data to prove this theory?

Anyone and his dog know who is in charge of what in the F1 teams after watching F1 closely.

In reality I (we) don't know where the decision came from and we can only speculate...

Fixed that for you.

Alfa Fan

21st September 2009, 19:12

This may have been mentioned, but has anyone noticed that the FIA have said they will not issue a superlicense to any driver associated with Briatore.

Robinho

21st September 2009, 19:12

Maybe, maybe not, impossible to prove either way.

i'm not trying to prove anything, just offering an opinion as to why Renault have acted as they have, knowing if found guilty (which their inetrnal investigation must have come to) they would be in really bad shape if they went in pleading innocence

ioan

21st September 2009, 19:17

i'm not trying to prove anything, just offering an opinion as to why Renault have acted as they have, knowing if found guilty (which their inetrnal investigation must have come to) they would be in really bad shape if they went in pleading innocence

That would be standard procedure in any court in such case.

ioan

21st September 2009, 19:19

This may have been mentioned, but has anyone noticed that the FIA have said they will not issue a superlicense to any driver associated with Briatore.

Yep. And it's absolutely understandable as the FIA is trying to cut all the links between Flav and any FIA sanctioned event. This will push the drivers to change search for another manager, that's all.

PS: All this has been discussed in the first few pages of this thread.

ioan

21st September 2009, 19:26

ioan, ioan, ioan... But that is flawed logic and contradictory isn't it?

:?:

You consistantly refer to Ron Dennis favouring Lewis, yet now only someone like Symonds would make a call on strategy in this case... :confused:

Ron favored Lewis and Flav favored Alonso, that's right. Where did I say that Ron was deciding the strategy?! Ordering that 'driver X has to get the better strategy' doesn't exactly equal deciding the strategy for the race just which driver will be favored within the team.

Are you saying that nobody above the strategists have authority to influence the race strategy of a driver? Not even a team principal or board of directors??

That's what I'm trying to explain. They might have the authority but in 99% of the cases don't have the knowledge to do so, so they don't do it.

AFAIK Flav might have had the idea of the crash but he proved it in numerous occasions that when it comes to anything technical he is pants.
Also I'm pretty sure that having the board of directors decide the race strategy is unheard of in F1.

Symonds is the first and last man who had a say in the strategy department at Renault.
If you read the leaked documentation about the Crashgate you probably also stumbled over the part where Alonso's engineer questions Symonds strategy decision but he can not override it and Symonds has the last say in the matter.

Roamy

21st September 2009, 19:31

So in the end the proof was some little blackmailing fag with telemetry that fits his driving style that took down the cheating empire. Well now that he is banned for life I wonder if Flav will come back and spill the beans about the "Ioan God"

Daika

21st September 2009, 19:43

I don't get the verdict. Renault as a team get of lightly because the individuals within team acted badly?? Briatore and Symonds and Piquet sound like Renault team to me. Kick Renault out. Can't anyone explain when the team/organisation is corrupted and when are individuals corrupted? How many individuals/persons has to be corrupted before a entire team can be kick out?

Robinho

21st September 2009, 19:45

That would be standard procedure in any court in such case.

ok now i don't understand what your getting at - i was just wondering if, maybe, Renaults fit of honesty was a result of the previous punishments handed out by the FIA. nothing to do with the court.

if so its good that the FIA's stance has resulted in teams not being willing to risk fighting something they are guilty of due to the fear or the consequences of losing.

mstillhere

21st September 2009, 20:29

I agree that Briatore needed to be punished, but I think that the FIA went way overboard. After all, Briatore fixed the result on ONE race. McLAren, instaed, for trying to win the whole champioship. Yet Flavio gets banned for life and instead McLAren got a fine.Yes a big one, but nobody got banned for life. Nobody!!! Therefore my feeling is that what we eyewitnessed here is not a punishement but a true revenge. What else can it be? They waited ONE year to actually come up with all this?? ONE year??? It was not justice that Mosley was after. It was revenge.

Daniel

21st September 2009, 20:31

Yeah but Renno FIXED a race, McLaren didn't.

F1boat

21st September 2009, 20:36

We'll see whether this ban will stand with the new president. And Flavio was going to retire sooner or later anyway. He has no time to discover a third great after MS and Alonso and the third one would have been likely lured by Ferrari again :-)

ioan

21st September 2009, 20:36

ok now i don't understand what your getting at - i was just wondering if, maybe, Renaults fit of honesty was a result of the previous punishments handed out by the FIA. nothing to do with the court.

if so its good that the FIA's stance has resulted in teams not being willing to risk fighting something they are guilty of due to the fear or the consequences of losing.

Who know. As I said earlier, maybe yes maybe not.
It might be that they took this stance given that they know that the FIA will throw the book at them.
It might as well be that Renault would have acted like this anyway.
I guess only the top bras at Renault know exactly.

Firstgear

21st September 2009, 20:49

We'll see whether this ban will stand with the new president.

With Flav out of Renault, maybe he'll run to become the new president. :D

F1boat

21st September 2009, 20:51

With Flav out of Renault, maybe he'll run to become the new president. :D
Mwahaha! :evil:

ioan

21st September 2009, 22:11

With Flav out of Renault, maybe he'll run to become the new president. :D

The ruling prohibits him any kind of links with anything related to the FIA.

Saint Devote

22nd September 2009, 00:08

You'd have to say the quick reaction by the Reggie to kick 'da management' out of F1 saved their bacon....

My opinion is that Pat's loyalty to Flav has cost him dear.

Loyalty by definition does not include a cost - for Symonds it is merely the price, not a sacrifice.

And we still are none the wiser.

The end of the era of Flavio is like that of Caligula - in the end nothing will have changed.

Those that trumpet Flavio's going are no better than the Caligula conspirators because the FIA is rotten to its core with their secret agreements and selective punishments. The praetorian guard will still triumph!

And so begins the demise of Renault team f1 to become as all the auto manufacturers teams - bereft of success.

Saint Devote

22nd September 2009, 00:15

So, it's bye bye Flav! :wave:
One scumbag less.

You declare so with the name of Michael Schumacher displayed as your motto?!!!

Who are you? The statue of Janus?!

ioan

22nd September 2009, 00:17

You declare so with the name of Michael Schumacher displayed as your motto?!!!

Who are you? The statue of Janus?!

I'm me! Who are you?! :rotflmao:

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 00:17

I''ll have what he's having

airshifter

22nd September 2009, 00:18

Loyalty by definition does not include a cost - for Symonds it is merely the price, not a sacrifice.

And we still are none the wiser.

The end of the era of Flavio is like that of Caligula - in the end nothing will have changed.

Those that trumpet Flavio's going are no better than the Caligula conspirators because the FIA is rotten to its core with their secret agreements and selective punishments. The praetorian guard will still triumph!

And so begins the demise of Renault team f1 to become as all the auto manufacturers teams - bereft of success.

I think F1 and it's fan base are far wiser for investigation and doing what needed to be done. This was flat out crooked race fixing. It wasn't stealing design to gain advantage, it wasn't trying to copy another car.

Flavio has no place in F1 as it stands. For them to set such a precedent and allow him to stay would be suicide in the eyes of most fans. Renault took the high road, and took action on their own before the FIA hearings. By comparison, Mclaren took the low road by involving more people, repeated lies, and covering up everything they could until proven guilty.

I will have much more respect for Renault even if the team does falter, than I could possibly have if they protected a race fixer and swept it under the rug.

Saint Devote

22nd September 2009, 00:27

Yeah but Renno FIXED a race, McLaren didn't.

And Ferrari with the eager agreement of the FIA fixed the rules.

The concretes may be different but the abstract dishonesty is the same. That nest of vices known as the FIA with its kangaroo courts has reached a low point that ought to have the honest men in f1 speak out.

But they are weak.

And the public? The so-called racing fans - they happily bray and moan at the moon and yell and cheer as peasants in the Dark Aged did as the blood flowed from the torture dispensed by the Inquisitions.

They castigate Briatore and Symonds and Renault. Hypocricy and schadenfreude are the order of the day.

God help this sport from its rulers and its so-called fans - after all it looks as if Bernie is right - the future of this sport is better leveraged towards the East than the West.

God help this sport!

Valve Bounce

22nd September 2009, 00:30

Symonds is a clever guy but he really messed up in his assumption that Flav was still Mr Teflon. Bye bye Flav...you won't be missed by me. as for the "suspended ban" it means nothing, IMO Renault got off lightly by shifting all blame to Flav.

I don't think they made any allowance for a piqued Jr. That basically let the cat out of the bag, and doomed these two buggers.

Saint Devote

22nd September 2009, 00:38

I think F1 and it's fan base are far wiser for investigation and doing what needed to be done. This was flat out crooked race fixing. It wasn't stealing design to gain advantage, it wasn't trying to copy another car.

Flavio has no place in F1 as it stands. For them to set such a precedent and allow him to stay would be suicide in the eyes of most fans. Renault took the high road, and took action on their own before the FIA hearings. By comparison, Mclaren took the low road by involving more people, repeated lies, and covering up everything they could until proven guilty.

I will have much more respect for Renault even if the team does falter, than I could possibly have if they protected a race fixer and swept it under the rug.

What we have witnessed is not justice, but whimsical punishment by a power.

I am sorry that Flavio is gone. Nevertheless he will retire to his island with its luxury home, his beautiful wife and know that he remains the most successful principal of his era.

Two of the best drivers his gift and a Renault team that won championships.

The derision by little people, little nobody's on this forum who choose to emotionalistically celebrate his demise and choose to forget what he gave this sport and therefore the fans, is a magnificent disgrace.

I am pleased that I am not coated by their stench.

ioan

22nd September 2009, 00:54

And Ferrari with the eager agreement of the FIA fixed the rules.

I was just wondering how long before someone starts blaming Ferrari for this! You won the jackpot! :laugh:

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 00:56

What we have witnessed is not justice, but whimsical punishment by a power.

I am sorry that Flavio is gone. Nevertheless he will retire to his island with its luxury home, his beautiful wife and know that he remains the most successful principal of his era.

Two of the best drivers his gift and a Renault team that won championships.

The derision by little people, little nobody's on this forum who choose to emotionalistically celebrate his demise and choose to forget what he gave this sport and therefore the fans, is a magnificent disgrace.

I am pleased that I am not coated by their stench.

Oh for goodness' sake.

Maybe you might like to consider the fact that this is also a man who was sentenced to four years in jail many years ago by an Italian court, although he somehow managed to avoid serving his time. Is this a gentleman worth admiring? I would suggest that a certain stench thus hangs around the subject of your admiration.

ioan

22nd September 2009, 01:00

What we have witnessed is not justice, but whimsical punishment by a power.

Bla bla bla.

I am sorry that Flavio is gone.

You must feel very alone right now in your world.

Nevertheless he will retire to his island with its luxury home, his beautiful wife and know that he remains the most successful principal of his era.

:?:
How did you measured his success? Number of models paid to sleep with him? :D

The derision by little people, little nobody's on this forum who choose to emotionalistically celebrate his demise and choose to forget what he gave this sport and therefore the fans, is a magnificent disgrace.

I am pleased that I am not coated by their stench.

I think you are entitled to leave us, little nobodies, and this forum, before pino bans you for good.

CNR

22nd September 2009, 02:04

I don't think they made any allowance for a piqued Jr. That basically let the cat out of the bag, and doomed these two buggers.

did they forget about this when the sacked piqued Jr
or have they got away with this before with other drivers keeping their mouth shut ?

CNR

22nd September 2009, 02:12

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2648761/Flavio-set-for-QPR-KO.html

FLAVIO BRIATORE will be kicked out of football following his ban from Formula One.

Under the Football League's 'fit-and-proper person' rules, the first disqualifying condition states that nobody can be a director or hold a majority interest in a club if they are "subject to a ban from a sports governing body relating to the administration of their sport".

Saint Devote

22nd September 2009, 02:42

Piquet is fortunate that he did not cross AJ Foyt because he would have been nursing a broken jaw and he deserves more than that - the little bitch.

Maybe the disclosures of Piquet's private life are true after all......!

Where I come from, snitches get stitches.

But staisfaction is that Piquet's career in top level motor racing is now over and he does not have one iota the success of Flavio. He will always be remembered more for his snitching based on circumstantial "evidence" as well as being a failure in f1.

Very satisfying.

Saint Devote

22nd September 2009, 02:46

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2648761/Flavio-set-for-QPR-KO.html

He should come to the United States where people are less hysterical and less inclined to do somebody in careerwise and join IndyCars!

The corrosive fingers of the FIA and their toxic mindset do not scar domestic American series racing :s mokin:

mstillhere

22nd September 2009, 02:46

Saint Devote

22nd September 2009, 02:58

I think both father and son are horrible people. They can't care less about justice. It's all about being in F1. They were dumped and therefore, all of the sudden, they had this guilt trip they could not live with.

Having said that, I understand bringing Flavio down. But why trying to do the same to Alonso? Unless discussed earlier, the Piquet's know no shame. In their "hunt for justice" they were, especially the father, willing to take anybody down? Why aiming at Alonso?

And despite all that, Piquet junior hoping to be hired in F1 again???????????? :) . What a joke

Ask Nigel Mansell what it is like to work alongside Piquet - but he was a great champion and if Nigel has never seen fit to publicly react to the insults and neither did Senna then I should not either.

I agree with you essentially - I think Piquet is envious of Alonso. He was raised to believe that he would be where Alonso is. He was teammate to one of the top three drivers in f1 today and Alonso was always close to Flavio.

Instead of Piquet being where Alonso is [and Nelsinho was very close to Flavio - he was flown on Flavio's private jet to watch his first grand prix overseas and stayed with Briatore that weekend] he is the failed outsider now.

What else does he do? Piquet was raised as a prince to be king and now he has been usurped. What else in life must he do now? He will be shunned by top level racing and he must bnow begin to live a life just watching.

His revenge on Briatore will turn out to be the worst punishment - and he deserves it :vader:

ShiftingGears

22nd September 2009, 03:06

Ask Nigel Mansell what it is like to work alongside Piquet - but he was a great champion and if Nigel has never seen fit to publicly react to the insults and neither did Senna then I should not either.

You are critisising Piquet and yet you put Mansell on a pedestal, probably because he is British. Both Piquet and Mansell have reputations of being extremely difficult people, so I wouldn't try to gloss it over.

WSRfan82

22nd September 2009, 04:10

Na na na na, hey hey-ey, goodbye
Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey-ey, goodbye....waves goodbye to Flavio :)

Roamy

22nd September 2009, 06:42

man I got hijacked so fast outta here I forgot what my point was

F1boat

22nd September 2009, 06:55

You are critisising Piquet and yet you put Mansell on a pedestal, probably because he is British. Both Piquet and Mansell have reputations of being extremely difficult people, so I wouldn't try to gloss it over.

Nige is a hard guy, Nelson was a b@st@rd :-)

Triumph

22nd September 2009, 07:08

I'm glad Fraudio Briatore won't be around from now on. I didn't like the idea of there being a convicted criminal with no previous interest in the sport in such a prominent position.

I wouldn't be surprised if certain people were waiting for an excuse to get rid of him, and they've certainly made the most of this opportunity.

ArrowsFA1

22nd September 2009, 08:30

Is there any sympathy for the position Piquet found himself in? When presented with a choice of 'crash' or 'lose your ride' (an oversimplification perhaps) what should he have done?

He has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78774):
"I bitterly regret my actions to follow the orders I was given. I wish every day that I had not done it. I don't know how far my explanation will go to making people understand because for many being a racing driver is an amazing privilege, as it was for me. All I can tell you is that my situation at Renault turned into a nightmare."

Dave B

22nd September 2009, 08:31

Na na na na, hey hey-ey, goodbye
Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey-ey, goodbye....waves goodbye to Flavio :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O7zZDNBKks :p

Ranger

22nd September 2009, 08:40

Maybe the disclosures of Piquet's private life are true after all......!

If they are, what has that got to do with you or anything to do with the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix?? :confused:

I smell the scent of a certain phobia coming from your direction.

Mark

22nd September 2009, 08:51

Is there any sympathy for the position Piquet found himself in? When presented with a choice of 'crash' or 'lose your ride' (an oversimplification perhaps) what should he have done?

He has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78774):

Of course what he 'should' have done is failed to crash, but then of course he would have gotten fired. And if he had told the FIA at that point they would just say he's lying, sour grapes etc.

As it is, I seriously doubt Piquet Jr will return to F1 and all he will be remembered for is getting Briatore fired. Perhaps if he had left Renault at the end of 2008 and gotten a drive in another team we would be non the wiser about any of this.

I bet Flavio regrets firing him now!

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 09:30

Maybe the disclosures of Piquet's private life are true after all......!

So what?

But staisfaction is that Piquet's career in top level motor racing is now over and he does not have one iota the success of Flavio. He will always be remembered more for his snitching based on circumstantial "evidence" as well as being a failure in f1.

I find your exaggerated respect for Briatore a little worrying. For how many other people who were sentenced, let's not forget, to four years in jail do you have this respect?

F1boat

22nd September 2009, 09:57

I think both father and son are horrible people. They can't care less about justice. It's all about being in F1.

Guys, guys... piquets were the weapon, not the true force behind this. Flavio was one of the guys who forced Max out. Max wanted his revenge and use the personal drama of the incompetent Junior and the wrath of his malicious Dad to get Flavio out. It's all about Max IMO. He needed one excuse to be done with Flavio and got it.
And yes, Flavio has won F1 many times and will go down as a great, although hugely controversial figure. While Nelson jr will be forgotten and nobody will hire him again. Sucker.

Sonic

22nd September 2009, 10:02

Loving the fact that he's gonna face the boot (pun intended :) ) from QPR too. LMAO! Gonna have to downsize flav. Only two yachts and one affair a year from now on! :D

ioan

22nd September 2009, 10:28

Piquet is fortunate that he did not cross AJ Foyt because he would have been nursing a broken jaw and he deserves more than that - the little bitch.

Make love not war! :D

Valve Bounce

22nd September 2009, 10:28

What we have witnessed is not justice, but whimsical punishment by a power.

I am sorry that Flavio is gone. Nevertheless he will retire to his island with its luxury home, his beautiful wife and know that he remains the most successful principal of his era.

Two of the best drivers his gift and a Renault team that won championships.

The derision by little people, little nobody's on this forum who choose to emotionalistically celebrate his demise and choose to forget what he gave this sport and therefore the fans, is a magnificent disgrace.

I am pleased that I am not coated by their stench.

Oh!! you are so wonderful. How lovely, wonderful, admirable to be such a Saint. This forum is so blessed with your sainted presence.
Thank god that you are not coated with our stench, yours smells like stale vomit!!

Valve Bounce

22nd September 2009, 10:29

ioan

22nd September 2009, 10:29

Ask Nigel Mansell what it is like to work alongside Piquet - but he was a great champion and if Nigel has never seen fit to publicly react to the insults and neither did Senna then I should not either.

A bit late, you already did insult the Piquets in at least a dozen of posts during the last week, some even in this very thread.

ioan

22nd September 2009, 10:30

My heart bleats for you - mehehehe!!

:D

ioan

22nd September 2009, 10:34

As it is, I seriously doubt Piquet Jr will return to F1 and all he will be remembered for is getting Briatore fired.

At least it's something positive.
Still I have a feeling we'll see Jr. back in F1.

ioan

22nd September 2009, 10:34

I fail to see why this would have any relevance to cheating in a Formula One race. If he happens to be gay so what? Is this suddenly a crime?

I find people who direct homophobic insults (like Flav) are usually insecure in their own sexuality.

These were below the belt remarks which ultimately back fired IMO... I don't respect Piquet for how this was handled, but Flav's remarks were totally irellevant and designed to smear Piquets public image... :)

:up:

Valve Bounce

22nd September 2009, 10:37

A bit late, you already did insult the Piquets in at least a dozen of posts during the last week, some even in this very thread.

Yeah!! but this guy is trying desperately to be Shakespearian, although he is making a lousy attempt at it. He's talking about some dude called Caligula, as if we care.

ioan

22nd September 2009, 10:41

Yeah!! but this guy is trying desperately to be Shakespearian, although he is making a lousy attempt at it. He's talking about some dude called Caligula, as if we care.

What I find funny is that he likens Flav to Caligula and he thinks that it is something positive! :D

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 10:42

Yeah!! but this guy is trying desperately to be Shakespearian, although he is making a lousy attempt at it. He's talking about some dude called Caligula, as if we care.
Maybe he was referring to the band Caligula who were around in the early 90s? Surely of more relevance .......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln7G4hkA_qs

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 10:44

What I find funny is that he likens Flav to Caligula and he thinks that it is something positive! :D

Quite.

Knock-on

22nd September 2009, 10:54

There are 2 sides to this.

1. Renault as a solid foundation in Motorsport. F1, F Renault, Clio, Rally etc. That gives them huge sway within the FIA.

2. Flav blotted his copy-book with his antics during the Breakaway drama. This offended Max and put him in the line for retribution.

So, Renault get off scott free with what Max acknowledges is an unparalled act of cheating and Flav gets thrown to the wolves.

It's no wonder there is such unrest over this. McLaren have a Ferrari dossier that was not used on car development but seems to have been discussed amongst drivers yet they get $100m fine. Renault commit a similar crime and have the data for a year on their computers but hardly get investigated and get off Scott free.

Then we have this latest offence and they are not punished again.

We have a precident. If you have enough money in the sport and even if the most seniour people commit the worst acts of cheating, you are imune from penalty.

I bet Renault are quaking in their boots about the next crime they commit.

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 10:54

So, is there any prospect of Flavio launching a legal challenge against the FIA?

As for Renault getting off, without so much of a points deduction, all I can say is that Carlos Gohn must go to the same Lodge as Max.

Solidarity Brothers!

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 10:56

I bet Renault are quaking in their boots about the next crime they commit.

Well, if they design another Avantime, that is crime enough for me... eeeeuuuugggghhhhhh!!!!! ;)

ozrevhead

22nd September 2009, 11:13

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 11:23

I think the suspended ban is good one - why punish 100's of workers who had nothing to do with it

2ndly if my workmate steals my purse/bag whatever at work, is it the company's fault - No its the theif that gets sacked.

so I dont get what the fuss is about

The whole team benefitted from prize money etc. At the VERY least, Renault should really have been retrospectively DSQ'd from the 2008 standings, stripped of their points and fined whatever prize money they received as a result.

But, I think we all know that this was all about Max v Flavio, don't we?

In fact, it is so blatant it is cringeworthy. Max knows his position is untouchable.

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 11:26

The whole team benefitted from prize money etc. At the VERY least, Renault should really have been retrospectively DSQ'd from the 2008 standings, stripped of their points and fined whatever prize money they received as a result.

But, I think we all know that this was all about Max v Flavio, don't we?

WTF does Max v Flavio have to do with it?

Did Max force Flav to fix the race? Did max force Coughlan to accept the docs from Stepney?

This sort of thing is just lame. Flav did what he did and paid for it. just accept it. A witch hunt is only a witch hunt when they're burning innocent people.

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 11:30

WTF does Max v Flavio have to do with it?

Did Max force Flav to fix the race? Did max force Coughlan to accept the docs from Stepney?

This sort of thing is just lame. Flav did what he did and paid for it. just accept it. A witch hunt is only a witch hunt when they're burning innocent people.

What I mean is, the fact that the Renault F1 Team fixed a race, conspiring with their driver(s) Piquet in so doing, has provided the fuel for Max to punish Flavio.

If it was more about handing down sensible punishments and deterrants, regardless of whether Renault may or may not exit the sport, then appropriate measures - docking of points, monetary fine etc - is what should have been given.

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 11:30

McLaren have a Ferrari dossier that was not used on car development but

No buts..... you're not meant to have your competitors documents and you should be penalised for it.

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 11:32

No buts..... you're not meant to have your competitors documents and you should be penalised for it.

A grasp of reality will tell you that the 'spread' of rivals information has been common place since motorsport began.

You have to consider how the information was 'procured', what was the rationale and who was the instigator(s).

Then consider fixing a race, and the wider implications that has......

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 11:33

What I mean is, the fact that the Renault F1 Team fixed a race, conspiring with their driver(s) Piquet in so doing, has provided the fuel for Max to punish Flavio.

If it was more about handing down sensible punishments and deterrants, regardless of whether Renault may or may not exit the sport, then appropriate measures - docking of points, monetary fine etc - is what should have been given.
But as Ozrevhead said they've punished the people responsible and Renault weren't shown to have any part in it and they've got a ban hanging over them. If they offend again that's it. Surely that's pretty serious......

As for Max's motivations? Who gives a ..... we've got rid of Flab.

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 11:34

A grasp of reality will tell you that the 'spread' of rivals information has been common place since motorsport began.

You have to consider how the information was 'procured', what was the rationale and who was the instigator(s).

Then consider fixing a race, and the wider implications that has......
and that it should be punished whenever infringements of note are found. Teams are allowed to draw their own conclusions from pictures and the like but actual industrial espionage? Non.

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 11:40

and that it should be punished whenever infringements of note are found. Teams are allowed to draw their own conclusions from pictures and the like but actual industrial espionage? Non.

So, lets look at the two different scenarios;

An individual(s) of team A is contacted by an individual of team B with the offer of technical info...... .........as a result the ENTIRE team is fined $100m.

then

Individuals of team C conspire to fix a race for the benefit of their star driver, in so doing earning valuable points and race prize money, depriving others of doing so legitimately, and then gain extra prize money for artificially finishing higher in the constructors championship....... .......as a result the ENTIRE team receives a cursory wrap on the knuckles.

Remember also that we don't actually have proof that Flavio was the guy that asked Piquet to crash. All we know thus far is that a meeting took place between Flavio, Piquet and Symmonds.

Remember also that the one thing Piquet was good at was crashing....

Convenient, was a deal struck?

Who knows?

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 11:42

So, lets look at the two different scenarios;

An individual(s) of team A is contacted by an individual of team B with the offer of technical info which team A then discussed between a number of employees and then made an effort to conceal and then when it came to trial they protested that they were innocent even though they knew damn well that wasn't the case...............as a result the ENTIRE team is fined $100m when they should have been banned for being a bunch of lying little twonks.

Edited your post for you so it makes more sense :)

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 11:42

What I mean is, the fact that the Renault F1 Team fixed a race, conspiring with their driver(s) Piquet in so doing, has provided the fuel for Max to punish Flavio.

But had the race-fixing not occurred, there would have been no way for Max to get rid of Flavio; and even if Flavio and the FIA boss didn't hate each other, Flavio would have had to quit as a result of the race-fixing scandal. So the personal animosity between them surely hasn't had any bearing on the actual outcome?

By the way, does anyone else think that it would possibly be impossible to discuss a subject involving a more grubby set of people — Flavio Briatore, Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosley? Urgh.

Daika

22nd September 2009, 11:43

Where is the evidence? I'm sure that they are guilty as hell but is there a smoking gun? I have read the transcript Briatore mocking Piquet after the crash but that's it.

ioan

22nd September 2009, 11:44

McLaren have a Ferrari dossier that was not used on car development...

Yes they did. That's why when the FIA checked the new car design in December 2007 they've found at least 3 systems copied from the F2007 and McLaren were asked to change those systems.

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 11:44

So, lets look at the two different scenarios;

An individual(s) of team A is contacted by an individual of team B with the offer of technical info...... .........as a result the ENTIRE team is fined $100m.

then

Individuals of team C conspire to fix a race for the benefit of their star driver, in so doing earning valuable points and race prize money, depriving others of doing so legitimately, and then gain extra prize money for artificially finishing higher in the constructors championship....... .......as a result the ENTIRE team receives a cursory wrap on the knuckles.

Remember also that we don't actually have proof that Flavio was the guy that asked Piquet to crash. All we know thus far is that a meeting took place between Flavio, Piquet and Symmonds.

Remember also that the one thing Piquet was good at was crashing....

Convenient, was a deal struck?

Who knows?

As I said before, what's the point in attempting to draw any parallels — moral, legal or otherwise — between the two cases, or seek any precedents that resulted from the McLaren one? The cases are totally different.

ioan

22nd September 2009, 11:45

Edited your post for you so it makes more sense :)

:up:

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 11:46

Where is the evidence? I'm sure that they are guilty as hell but is there a smoking gun? I have read the transcript Briatore mocking Piquet after the crash but that's it.

I think we can now say that Renault's decision not to defend themselves against the allegations was an admission of guilt. There was never likely to be a series of documents, let's face it, given that it all happened during a race. And the telemetry is pretty conclusive too.

ArrowsFA1

22nd September 2009, 11:48

No buts..... you're not meant to have your competitors documents and you should be penalised for it.
If there are no buts about having competitors documents why was one team (McLaren) penalised for that offence, but not others (Toyota, Renault, Toro Rosso)?

ioan

22nd September 2009, 11:50

If there are no buts about having competitors documents why was one team (McLaren) penalised for that offence, but not others (Toyota, Renault, Toro Rosso)?

What has Torro Rosso got to do with this?

Saint Devote

22nd September 2009, 12:02

ArrowsFA1

22nd September 2009, 12:03

What has Torro Rosso got to do with this?
I was thinking Toro Rosso, but perhaps it was Force India (or whatever they were called at the time) who "obtained" drawings of a rivals car.

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 12:06

By altering that post it is just bending the events based on pure speculation. There is absolutely no proof to suggest the entire Mclaren organisation was aware of stolen data being used. You know that and I know that.

I never said the whole team knew, perhaps before going medieval on Ioan for being a bit biased you should learn to read.

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 12:12

Edited your post for you so it makes more sense :)

So, if we follow your thought process, with the denials from the Renault F1 team, and taking them almost a whole season to admit their wrong, was the whole team not penalised financially for the fraudulent obtaining of prize money?

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 12:13

So, if we follow your thought process, with the denials from the Renault F1 team, and taking them almost a whole season to admit their wrong, was the whole team not penalised financially for the fraudulent obtaining of prize money?
When did Renno deny it? As soon as they learnt the truth they fired Flabio and Pat.

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 12:15

I never said the whole team knew, perhaps before going medieval on Ioan for being a bit biased you should learn to read.

Erm, actually, yes, you did my good man....

ENTIRE team is fined $100m when they should have been banned for being a bunch of lying little twonks.

I copied your post so it made sense.

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 12:17

When did Renno deny it? As soon as they learnt the truth they fired Flabio and Pat.

Oh, turn it in already! There were questions raised at the time, Piquet went to the FIA, Massa questioned it at the time......... If you cannot believe RD was unaware of what was happening, then by the same logic, nor can you believe Renault knew nothing.

You can twist it to how ever it suits an particular POV.....

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 12:20

I think we can now say that Renault's decision not to defend themselves against the allegations was an admission of guilt. There was never likely to be a series of documents, let's face it, given that it all happened during a race. And the telemetry is pretty conclusive too.

Telemetry proves Piquet can't drive for 5h!t....

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 12:21

I was thinking Toro Rosso, but perhaps it was Force India (or whatever they were called at the time) who "obtained" drawings of a rivals car.

I think it was STR, but I cannot recall who's drawings they had.......

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 12:24

Yes they did. That's why when the FIA checked the new car design in December 2007 they've found at least 3 systems copied from the F2007 and McLaren were asked to change those systems.

No, the FIA said that if evidence of use of the three systems in question that Ferrari had been working on - fast fill, quick shift and something else I cannot recall, they would face further sanctions.

Knock-on

22nd September 2009, 12:25

No buts..... you're not meant to have your competitors documents and you should be penalised for it.

Agreed. Thank you!

I have never said that McLaren shouldn't be punished. They deserved to be and were.

I just question why weren't Renault and by your post, I assume you are asking the same question.

Then we have this incident which the Max and the FIA has said is worse than the Spygate and Renault still don't get punished.

It seems that if the FIA decide you are pivortal to FI, ie Renault and Ferrari, then the rules and punishment is different from other competitors.

PS Can we remember the Forum Protocol thread?

ArrowsFA1

22nd September 2009, 12:26

I think it was STR, but I cannot recall who's drawings they had.......
No buts about it, it was Spyker who obtained Red Bull drawings (link (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19043.html)). The FIA weren't interested in that one.

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 12:28

No buts about it, it was Spyker who obtained Red Bull drawings (link (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19043.html)).

Good find Watson!

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 12:28

I have never seen a bunch of people that hate the people of f1 as so many here: Max, Bernie, Flavio you name them - very sad.

Max is someone who, in his younger days, was a supporter of his father's fascist movement, and more recently has been fundamentally bad at his job, leaving aside the comments it is easy to make about him continuing to demonstrate some of the tendencies of his father. Flavio should have gone to prison. Are these people worthy of our admiration? Or should we automatically, unthinkingly, slavishly respect them because they have a lot of money?

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 12:35

Agreed. Thank you!

I have never said that McLaren shouldn't be punished. They deserved to be and were.

I just question why weren't Renault and by your post, I assume you are asking the same question.

Then we have this incident which the Max and the FIA has said is worse than the Spygate and Renault still don't get punished.

It seems that if the FIA decide you are pivortal to FI, ie Renault and Ferrari, then the rules and punishment is different from other competitors.

Indeed, but it also appears that the press are really getting their teeth into the Renault Fixing case.

Headlines like 'Anger at Renault leniancy' and questions of the closeness of the regulator to the promoter - i.e. Bernie and CVC could not afford for Renault to leave because;

Red Bull lose an engine supplier and Renault would be out,

Rules would need to be change to allow manufacturers to supply more engines.

If the press start baying for Max's blood, when he no longer has the protection of the FIA on his side, he will be crucified. And this is why I think having Todt as his replacement will not be allowed to happen, because he will be Max's puppet.

WIth Max out, it's fair game and you can bet there will be more grime dug up from his past. ANd I suspect this is why he pursued the privacy thing, because, on the face of it, it appears he has much murkier past than just bondage and fancy dress.

Knock-on

22nd September 2009, 12:39

I agree with much of that Wilko but don't think JT will be Max's puppet but rather would continue in the same vein as they share a vision.

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 12:43

I agree with much of that Wilko but don't think JT will be Max's puppet but rather would continue in the same vein as they share a vision.

The way I see it - so it is ONLY MY OPINION - Ferrari had all the favours from the FIA when Todt was at the helm of the Scuderia, and Max at the FIA.

In order to protect other team bosses outing whatever lies and scandal from Max's closet, he needs someone to carry on 'the good work'.

As much I admire Todt for getting things done, he is so totally wrong for the head of the FIA because of his associations and past connections with current teams in FIA governed sports.

Remembering here that Ari was only a driver - I think.

ArrowsFA1

22nd September 2009, 12:57

But had the race-fixing not occurred, there would have been no way for Max to get rid of Flavio...
Isn't that the issue where Max is concerned though? The suggestion has been that certain circumstances, which are not unique in the history of F1, have been exploited to a particular end whereas others have not been put under the same level of scrutiny.

While the departure from F1 of the likes of Ron Dennis and Flavio Briatore may have been welcomed in some quarters, it is not the role of the FIA to target individuals who may have got up the nose of the FIA President.

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 12:59

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 13:02

WIth Max out, it's fair game and you can bet there will be more grime dug up from his past. ANd I suspect this is why he pursued the privacy thing, because, on the face of it, it appears he has much murkier past than just bondage and fancy dress.

Well, all the stuff about his dubious political associations in his younger days — he was very enthusiastic about his father's politics — is quite well known, though rarely mentioned by the press, it must be said.

I read recently that Max was at some dinner with a load of motorsport journalists who presented him with a riding whip, which he apparently found most amusing. 'What a good sport', you might think. I suspect that he would have been less amused had he been given a copy of 'Hitler's Death Camps', or some such. This despite the fact that his dad may well be mentioned in the index.

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 13:04

Isn't that the issue where Max is concerned though? The suggestion has been that certain circumstances, which are not unique in the history of F1, have been exploited to a particular end whereas others have not been put under the same level of scrutiny.

While the departure from F1 of the likes of Ron Dennis and Flavio Briatore may have been welcomed in some quarters, it is not the role of the FIA to target individuals who may have got up the nose of the FIA President.

I agree with all of that, but, like I said, the outcomes in the Renault case — which is, as far as we know, unique — would not have been altered.

F1boat

22nd September 2009, 13:11

Max is someone who, in his younger days, was a supporter of his father's fascist movement, and more recently has been fundamentally bad at his job, leaving aside the comments it is easy to make about him continuing to demonstrate some of the tendencies of his father. Flavio should have gone to prison. Are these people worthy of our admiration? Or should we automatically, unthinkingly, slavishly respect them because they have a lot of money?

Humans are not angels and maybe they shouldn't be. I respect Flavio tremendously, because he was one of the people who made MS and Fred champions, because he was shrewd, talented organizer and - yes - ruthless team boss who chased the victory always on the edge. He crossed the edge and he fell. But I continue to respect him.
About Max, he is really authoritarian, rude schemer, but he made a lot about F1 safety and in the end he was right about many things, including the fact that the manufacturers do not care about F1 and costs need to go down. I hate his attitude, but he is not all black either.

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 13:14

Humans are not angels and maybe they shouldn't be. I respect Flavio tremendously, because he was one of the people who made MS and Fred champions, because he was shrewd, talented organizer and - yes - ruthless team boss who chased the victory always on the edge. He crossed the edge and he fell. But I continue to respect him.
About Max, he is really authoritarian, rude schemer, but he made a lot about F1 safety and in the end he was right about many things, including the fact that the manufacturers do not care about F1 and costs need to go down. I hate his attitude, but he is not all black either.

I agree that these people are not all bad, but I prefer to concentrate on personal qualities when it comes to respecting such people, and there is just too much about these individuals that I dislike. In relation to Briatore, how many other people do you respect who, I repeat, were sentenced to jail at one point?

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 13:17

Humans are not angels and maybe they shouldn't be. I respect Flavio tremendously, because he was one of the people who made MS and Fred champions, because he was shrewd, talented organizer and - yes - ruthless team boss who chased the victory always on the edge. He crossed the edge and he fell. But I continue to respect him.
About Max, he is really authoritarian, rude schemer, but he made a lot about F1 safety and in the end he was right about many things, including the fact that the manufacturers do not care about F1 and costs need to go down. I hate his attitude, but he is not all black either.
I actually agree. I mean look at Hitler! Fantastic bloke, turned Germany into a powerhouse of industry, fathered the autobahns, German motorsport gained a lot in his time and loads of other things. I find it sad that people focus on the side of Hitler that was all for slaughtering jews, gays, slavs etc.

And yes I am being sarcastic......

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 13:26

I agree that these people are not all bad, but I prefer to concentrate on personal qualities when it comes to respecting such people, and there is just too much about these individuals that I dislike. In relation to Briatore, how many other people do you respect who, I repeat, were sentenced to jail at one point?

Mandela went to jail. Perhaps it would be better if we looked at the conviction, rather than the jail bit....?

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 13:27

And yes I am being sarcastic......

So glad you cleared that up! :laugh:

Knock-on

22nd September 2009, 13:28

Well tbh I don't remember the renault spygate details at all. Feel free to refresh my memory and I will probably agree with you that it's a bit strange.

Phil Macereth left McLaren for Renault in 2006 with the plans and documentation for suspension, fuel system, mass damper and gearing.

These were then used within Renault and came to light when a quite junour ex-Renault employee joined McLaren about a year later and admitted to knowing all about the McLaren data. Phil himself when joining Renault went to work in their Fuel department where he had absolutly no knowledge apart from what he stole.

Phil admitted sharing the information with key engineering staff but they all stated that the design of their car was not influenced by the stolen data.

Charlie Whiting popped down one day and spoke to them and apparently accepted their word.

Result. $100m fine..... Sorry, wrong team. No penalty. I think Phil still works ther.

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 13:30

Phil Macereth left McLaren for Renault in 2006 with the plans and documentation for suspension, fuel system, mass damper and gearing.

These were then used within Renault and came to light when a quite junour ex-Renault employee joined McLaren about a year later and admitted to knowing all about the McLaren data. Phil himself when joining Renault went to work in their Fuel department where he had absolutly no knowledge apart from what he stole.

Phil admitted sharing the information with key engineering staff but they all stated that the design of their car was not influenced by the stolen data.

Charlie Whiting popped down one day and spoke to them and apparently accepted their word.

Result. $100m fine..... Sorry, wrong team. No penalty. I think Phil still works ther.
If those be the facts then it does seem a bit stoopid.

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 13:30

So glad you cleared that up! :laugh:
Well there are strange people on this forum with strange beliefs so I think it pays to be explicit with what you're saying etc etc :p

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 13:32

Phil Macereth left McLaren for Renault in 2006 with the plans and documentation for suspension, fuel system, mass damper and gearing.

These were then used within Renault and came to light when a quite junour ex-Renault employee joined McLaren about a year later and admitted to knowing all about the McLaren data. Phil himself when joining Renault went to work in their Fuel department where he had absolutly no knowledge apart from what he stole.

Phil admitted sharing the information with key engineering staff but they all stated that the design of their car was not influenced by the stolen data.

Charlie Whiting popped down one day and spoke to them and apparently accepted their word.

Result. $100m fine..... Sorry, wrong team. No penalty. I think Phil still works ther.

Perhaps the team chose to exercise 'option 13' to escape punishment - again..... ;)

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 13:33

If those be the facts then it does seem a bit stoopid.

Dems da facts alright....

F1boat

22nd September 2009, 13:33

I agree that these people are not all bad, but I prefer to concentrate on personal qualities when it comes to respecting such people, and there is just too much about these individuals that I dislike. In relation to Briatore, how many other people do you respect who, I repeat, were sentenced to jail at one point?

I am not sure, I respect many people, writers, actors, musicians, sportsmen, even some politicians and I do not follow closely their whole career. But I don't think that this matter. I said why I respect Flav. His time in jail in no way diminished my respect to him.

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 13:38

Mandela went to jail. Perhaps it would be better if we looked at the conviction, rather than the jail bit....?

Fair point, though everything one reads about Briatore's background indicates that he wasn't the victim of a great miscarriage of justice.

Daniel

22nd September 2009, 13:39

Fair point, though everything one reads about Briatore's background indicates that he wasn't the victim of a great miscarriage of justice.
Yeah but Flab wasn't part of a terrorist organisation :)

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 13:42

Charlie Whiting popped down one day and spoke to them and apparently accepted their word.

What, Whitebait found the Renault factory on his own......?

.......without help?

......are you sure?

;)

ArrowsFA1

22nd September 2009, 13:50

What, Whitebait found the Renault factory on his own......?
Assuming it was the Renault factory he ended up in? :crazy: :p

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 13:54

http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2391

This article explains the reason for the jail sentence, among other little gems....

ioan

22nd September 2009, 14:00

I'm struggling to see your point :confused:

And I'm struggling to understand your trolling. :mad:

ioan

22nd September 2009, 14:04

Isn't that the issue where Max is concerned though? The suggestion has been that certain circumstances, which are not unique in the history of F1, have been exploited to a particular end whereas others have not been put under the same level of scrutiny.

The way laws are applied changes over time pretty much everywhere in the world. It's called evolution.

henners88

22nd September 2009, 14:06

And I'm struggling to understand your trolling. :mad:
That discussion was all cleared up.. Keep up please

How can someone be trolling when they are in the discussion?? :confused:

It seems you were trolling by going back 2 hours looking for this comment..

Notice how I didn't use your catch phrase "But I wasn't talking to you"...

CNR

22nd September 2009, 14:08

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/152553/1/distraught_briatore_seeking_damages_from_fia.html
i am a cheat but if you call me a cheat i will sue you

Disgraced former Renault F1 managing director Flavio Briatore is understood to be 'distraught' at the effective lifetime ban he has received from working in Formula 1 following yesterday's FIA World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) hearing in Paris – so much so that he is reported to be considering seeking compensation from the governing body for damage to his reputation.

BDunnell

22nd September 2009, 14:10

The way laws are applied changes over time pretty much everywhere in the world. It's called evolution.

Not always. Sometimes it could be described as deep inconsistency.

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 14:24

What lap am I on?

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 14:25

Sometimes, your sponsor decals can come back to haunt you.....

ioan

22nd September 2009, 14:33

That discussion was all cleared up.. Keep up please

Who cares? This an open forum so I just felt I'll share my view over your trolling.

ioan

22nd September 2009, 14:35

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/152553/1/distraught_briatore_seeking_damages_from_fia.html
i am a cheat but if you call me a cheat i will sue you

:laugh:

He won't do anything. He's just making some waves right now, as he is fully aware that after being thrown out by Renault, who never tried to contest the cheating allegations, he will also be laughed at and thrown out of the court room.

henners88

22nd September 2009, 14:38

Who cares? This an open forum so I just felt I'll share my view over your trolling.
Now you're nicking my lines :p
Now you've shared your views on my apparent trolling, what are you going to do about your trolling?

ioan

22nd September 2009, 14:39

Now you're nicking my lines :p
Now you've shared your views on my apparent trolling, what are you going to do about your trolling?

What trolling?! :confused:

veeten

22nd September 2009, 14:40

What lap am I on?

Sometimes, your sponsor decals can come back to haunt you.....

Dude, that is so wrong, on so many levels... :laugh: :rotflmao:

Good one, though... :D :up:

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 15:28

Dude, that is so wrong, on so many levels... :laugh: :rotflmao:

Good one, though... :D :up:

I think it gives us all an idea of just how much damage this going to do to renault F1, and anyone associated with them.

I honestly think they will quit, sponsors will exit stage right at their earliest opportunity, and the average Frenchman certainly won't want to bankroll some bit part drivers in cars that cannot win as they have no money.....

As that woman at the rental desk told Steve Martin - they're f****d!

They are also getting bad press over the leniency they were shown.

You cannot polish a turd, so why stick around and be widiculed like the common soldiewy?

SGWilko

22nd September 2009, 15:40

Actually, thinking about it, I wander if Max has had a conversation with Renault along the lines of;

'If you quit, book gets thrown at you, stay, and we will play nice'

:?: :?: :?: :?:

ioan

22nd September 2009, 17:40

Actually, thinking about it, I wander if Max has had a conversation with Renault along the lines of;

'If you quit, book gets thrown at you, stay, and we will play nice'

:?: :?: :?: :?:

And how would they stop Renault if they decide to quit after the FIA played nice?

Sonic

22nd September 2009, 21:35

And how would they stop Renault if they decide to quit after the FIA played nice?

Good point well made...

jens

22nd September 2009, 21:46

An expected outcome, to be honest. It was clear that FIA wouldn't risk with losing more teams by banning a manufacturer from the sport, like they didn't dare to ban McLaren-Mercedes. Quite a heavy punishment to Briatore and especially Symonds though.

CNR

22nd September 2009, 22:44

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6845194.ece

Witness X came forward on the eve of the FIA World Motor Sport Council hearing to reveal the elaborate details of the plot as Renault executives struggled to piece together events in their internal inquiry.
According to Witness X, Briatore knew all about the plan and the architect was Pat Symonds, Renault’s once highly respected director of engineering.
The FIA statement said: “Witness X was told of the idea suggested by Nelson Piquet Jr by Mr Symonds, whilst in the presence of Mr Briatore. Witness X objected to the idea. He did not know the plan was to be carried into effect until the crash happened.
“As a result of the evidence, including Mr Piquet’s admission, Mr Symonds’s responses and Witness X’s evidence, Renault F1 concluded that they and Mr Briatore must have known about the conspiracy.”
The trio kept the plan secret from the rest of the team, which explains why the FIA was keen to go easy on Renault, handing out a two-year suspended ban to the manufacturer team, while cracking down on Briatore and Symonds, who was banned from motor racing for five years. Piquet was given immunity for revealing the plot.

Witness X was told of the idea suggested by Nelson Piquet Jr
if any team even pick Nelson Piquet Jr as a test driver they are F_en mad

ioan

22nd September 2009, 23:30

ioan

22nd September 2009, 23:42

The Spanish FIA representative is clearly a tool:

"Briatore's (sanction) seems excessive to me, as there were no clear evidence to incriminate him and he didn't have the chance to defend himself," Gracia was quoted as saying by AS newspaper.

If I'm not mistaken Flavio was invited to the WMSC hearing but chose not to attend. Since when does this mean that 'he didn't have the chance to defend himself'?! :rotflmao:

"Moreover, I'm not ruling out that he decides to resort to regular justice, because he has been left without his means to earn a living."

Poor Flav he will not have the possibility to repaint his yacht next winter and maybe he will have to fire one of his room maids and settle for 354 thongs instead of the usual 355. :\ Who would want a dog life like that?! :D

Anyway this Gracia guy is really having some huge troubles with reality perception from his 7th cloud!

Link to article: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78785