Q: How far did Ferrari go to ensure that michael won

[CNR]

(i am not having a go at michael but i find this strange)


You've got two drivers driving for the same team; the idea is to make one of those drivers get the best result possible, and when I was racing we pretty much did everything we could do to make one guy win the race.


http://www.crash.net/f1/news/152436/1/irvine_f1_should_be_war_not_political_correctness. html
Irvine: F1 should be war, not political correctness


“The greats of motor racing like Colin Chapman and Enzo Ferrari, they would do anything to win; nothing was beyond the realms of decency, and that's what Formula 1 always was. Formula 1 is not a pure sport; it's gladiatorial more than anything else, and I believe that's the way it should be – not this politically correct thing where the cars go round and round like in Scalextric and the fastest car wins. In the last few years there's been this huge thing to make Formula 1 politically correct and wonderful and beautifully-packaged for manufacturers – but there's actually no point in watching because it's so boring.”

[wedge]

Austria 2001 & '02.

[driveace]

Answer to the question= A LONG WAY !

[Dave B]

I'm looking forward to Irvine's autobiography once he feels he can finally spill all the beans!

[Roamy]

check the history channel it should be all there. But the real question is "what didn't they do to insure he won"

[jas123f1]

I'm looking forward to Irvine's autobiography once he feels he can finally spill all the beans!

Sure - and Rubens too - it will be interesting reading :) I like Hakkinen answer he is not leaving any room for doubt. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK3Eaoda9v8

[Saint Devote]

Ferrari simply tried to ensure that until the championship was won, Schumacher's teammate had to give way.

Problem was that nobody expected Barrichello to be as strong as he was, able to beat Schumacher.

And as was recently confirmed, Ferrari were allowed a legal for of cheating - being given secretly a vote to vetoe regulations they did not agree with.

Of course that is not a scandal because it is Ferrari and not Briatore.

I am not a fan of Ferrari because they remind me of spoilt children. I LOVE it when Mclaren whacks them upside the head.

And the day Mclaren provide Hamilton with a really good car he is going to give Ferrari a hiding they have never even dreamed of.

The best they can offer will be Alonso and we all know that Hamilton has teh measure of him.

I am not a Hamilton supporter, and I consider the hype surrounding him to be extremely crass and overdone - but as he hones his ability and experience I think he can become a driver that may one day beat Schumacher's record.

But it will be done without the secret advantage that Ferrari had and unlike Schumacher, Hamilton will not cheat his way to a title and he unlike Schumacher he is not afraid of who his teammate is.

Hamilton is Ferrari's future rising nightmare nemisis I would say even if Todt becomes the FIA chief.

[Saint Devote]

Oh dear they'll be tears at bed time when the usual mob read this.... Have you written this for a reaction SD? You've been here long enough now to know this sort of writing just turns threads into the same boring rant... :( :confused:

;) Not at all - I am on my best behavior and will not indulge in antics again - board monitor and all that y'know, auld sport!!

I am serious in what I say.

:s mokin: Tears? Excellent - teams tend to attract the sort of fans that reflect themselves. Ferrari fans have a view that they are "entitled" and whatever Ferrari does is okay - woe betide anyone else!

But I hope any ranters remain silent because it is the truth. Ferrari met every condition that Schumacher desired - primarily a compliant teammate at least and a driver with lesser ability at best as well - and so did the FIA unless it was blatantly obvious - such as "doing Sennas" in Australia and Spain.

[Malbec]

But it will be done without the secret advantage that Ferrari had and unlike Schumacher, Hamilton will not cheat his way to a title and he unlike Schumacher he is not afraid of who his teammate is.

Hamilton is hardly squeaky clean, he lied to the FIA regarding the Trulli incident earlier this season and firmly put the blame on a McLaren veteran when it all fell through. His claims of innocence are rather difficult to believe for someone who is not only intelligent but managed by a very canny shrewd father.

Hamilton may well win as many championships as Schumacher (personally I doubt it, he would need an era when McLaren remains dominant for nearly a decade and F1 these days is far too competitive for that to happen) and he may not be quite as dirty but he certainly won't be an angel on his way there either.

[Saint Devote]

Hamilton is hardly squeaky clean, he lied to the FIA regarding the Trulli incident earlier this season and firmly put the blame on a McLaren veteran when it all fell through. His claims of innocence are rather difficult to believe for someone who is not only intelligent but managed by a very canny shrewd father.

Hamilton may well win as many championships as Schumacher (personally I doubt it, he would need an era when McLaren remains dominant for nearly a decade and F1 these days is far too competitive for that to happen) and he may not be quite as dirty but he certainly won't be an angel on his way there either.

Hamilton's ethics are not the issue here - his whimping out of the London Triathlon challenge he issued Jenson Button via "daddy" - there is definitely something creepy about Anthony - is enough for me.

Hamilton has never done anything underhanded on track other than being a tough competitor in the Brabham-Rindt mold. Schumacher-Ferrari are experts at the underhanded as has been shown.

But Hamilton's ability is not questionable and while he does make errors, in time he will also become an experienced old hand and thatis when he will be at his peak.

I do agree that his winning as many championships or even grands prix is improbable but not impossible.

Schumacher went through one of those unique f1 sweet periods where everything agrees with a driver and he was excellent at managing it and had many advantages besides the Ferrari team focused on him.

He had an era when there were no spec tyres, he had essentially one other driver at a time that was his competition - Hakkinen [who will ever forget that overtaking manoeuvre by Mika on Michael at Spa of all places], although Mika beat Schumacher twice in a row - of course Alonso whipped his butt in 2006 into retirment and at a time when a team such as Ferrari would literally be able to build a different car for every race never mind any dear old teammate.

I do not consider Schumacher the best, but one of the top ten and alongside him would be Hakkinen.

[BDunnell]

Hamilton is hardly squeaky clean, he lied to the FIA regarding the Trulli incident earlier this season and firmly put the blame on a McLaren veteran when it all fell through. His claims of innocence are rather difficult to believe for someone who is not only intelligent but managed by a very canny shrewd father.

Hamilton may well win as many championships as Schumacher (personally I doubt it, he would need an era when McLaren remains dominant for nearly a decade and F1 these days is far too competitive for that to happen) and he may not be quite as dirty but he certainly won't be an angel on his way there either.

I agree with all of the above. Unfortunately, while there have always been drivers who are less clean than the rest — going back to people like Farina, for example — F1 is even less a place for ethics today than ever, it seems.

[Saint Devote]

:up:
Squeaky clean drivers are boring...Although the Australia incident was more a damage limitation exercise by the team in reality. Who do you get rid of? A reigning WDC, who the hottest property in F1 at present.. Or a veteren who is willing the take a large pay-off and carry the blame for his part in the bad communication... :)

Squeaky clean drivers on track - and I only consider drivers that really do employ cheating tactics to be dirty - are not boring - it is OFF track that the drivers with several exceptions - and Schumacher LED the boring brigade - have necome so damn boring!

But as Jenson said this year, to focus on the championship he has had to become "an extremly boring b-----d"!

Dont worry Jenson, on the night of November 1 you will be able to make up for that! Party all night long! I am sure that Kimi will be invited :D

[BDunnell]

I'm looking forward to Irvine's autobiography once he feels he can finally spill all the beans!

If Irvine was really so 'politically incorrect' (I hate that phrase), he would tell all now, not wait. As it stands, all we have are some comments from him without any specifics.

[Malbec]

Hamilton has never done anything underhanded on track other than being a tough competitor in the Brabham-Rindt mold. Schumacher-Ferrari are experts at the underhanded as has been shown.

He hasn't really had a chance has he? Some of his actions meanwhile are certainly very borderline too such as his pre-first corner late braking/swerving incidents that have often played against him.

I very much doubt that a guy who idolises Senna and followed Schumacher will be that different from them when push comes to shove. Lewis is very much a product of his times I'm afraid. I don't have your confidence in his purity.

[Valve Bounce]

I think they made sure that SchM had 4 wheels on his car at every pitstop.

[CNR]

I think they made sure that SchM had 4 wheels on his car at every pitstop.

i remember that pit stop for eddie (3 wheels on and running back in to the garage to grab the 4th wheel)
long before team orders ?

[airshifter]

Ferrari simply tried to ensure that until the championship was won, Schumacher's teammate had to give way.

Problem was that nobody expected Barrichello to be as strong as he was, able to beat Schumacher.

And as was recently confirmed, Ferrari were allowed a legal for of cheating - being given secretly a vote to vetoe regulations they did not agree with.

Of course that is not a scandal because it is Ferrari and not Briatore.

I am not a fan of Ferrari because they remind me of spoilt children. I LOVE it when Mclaren whacks them upside the head.

And the day Mclaren provide Hamilton with a really good car he is going to give Ferrari a hiding they have never even dreamed of.

The best they can offer will be Alonso and we all know that Hamilton has teh measure of him.

I am not a Hamilton supporter, and I consider the hype surrounding him to be extremely crass and overdone - but as he hones his ability and experience I think he can become a driver that may one day beat Schumacher's record.

But it will be done without the secret advantage that Ferrari had and unlike Schumacher, Hamilton will not cheat his way to a title and he unlike Schumacher he is not afraid of who his teammate is.

Hamilton is Ferrari's future rising nightmare nemisis I would say even if Todt becomes the FIA chief.


Though I never really cared for the blatant #1 driver spot given to Schumacher at Ferrari, comparing it to the current situation at Renault is a complete apples and oranges case.

Ferrari took those actions when team orders were entirely legal within the regulations. Once the drivers championship was carved in stone they allowed Rubens to race once again, rather than play the supporting role. Had they had the opportunity I'm sure McLaren would have done the same when their golden boy tossed away his first opportunity at the WDC.

Rules now ban team orders, and Hamilton has to fear his teammate unless he is lucky enough to have a teammate that chooses to support him. Ron Dennis had let that happen in the past as well, having the attitude that in all but a few cases fearing mutual car destruction, he allowed his drivers to race as long as it was numercially possible for either of them to win the WDC. At the point where only one was a contender, he expected the other to support the higher scoring driver while gaining constructors points.



For the record, I agree with Irvines point of view, but you can't blame Ferrari or any other team for taking full advantage of the rules in pursuit of drivers and constructors championships.

[Saint Devote]

Though I never really cared for the blatant #1 driver spot given to Schumacher at Ferrari, comparing it to the current situation at Renault is a complete apples and oranges case.

Ferrari took those actions when team orders were entirely legal within the regulations. Once the drivers championship was carved in stone they allowed Rubens to race once again, rather than play the supporting role. Had they had the opportunity I'm sure McLaren would have done the same when their golden boy tossed away his first opportunity at the WDC.

Rules now ban team orders, and Hamilton has to fear his teammate unless he is lucky enough to have a teammate that chooses to support him. Ron Dennis had let that happen in the past as well, having the attitude that in all but a few cases fearing mutual car destruction, he allowed his drivers to race as long as it was numercially possible for either of them to win the WDC. At the point where only one was a contender, he expected the other to support the higher scoring driver while gaining constructors points.



For the record, I agree with Irvines point of view, but you can't blame Ferrari or any other team for taking full advantage of the rules in pursuit of drivers and constructors championships.

The management style of Ron Dennis was always the same - he let drivers sort it out but then would favor a specific driver at times - without contravening the rules.

This is what Ferrari has been doing and favoring Massa - they have copied Dennis becasue the blatant use of team orders is not allowed.

The Ferrari team is far more subtle - THEY stidied the machiavellian ways of Enzo. What other team would engineer a veto on the rules? This alone is even worse than the ALLEGED Renault team action.

Why? Because it is a favorable collusion between those who make the rules and those supposedly abiding by them. Yet barely a whimper was heard when the suspicions were confirmed.

Yet the same sort of thing and a good man that has always been marvellous for formula 1 is thrown under the bus.

I find that unacceptable.

If Raikkonen is forced out he should go to Brawn!!! :D

[Ari]

Ferrari simply tried to ensure that until the championship was won, Schumacher's teammate had to give way.

Problem was that nobody expected Barrichello to be as strong as he was, able to beat Schumacher.

And as was recently confirmed, Ferrari were allowed a legal for of cheating - being given secretly a vote to vetoe regulations they did not agree with.

Of course that is not a scandal because it is Ferrari and not Briatore.

I am not a fan of Ferrari because they remind me of spoilt children. I LOVE it when Mclaren whacks them upside the head.

And the day Mclaren provide Hamilton with a really good car he is going to give Ferrari a hiding they have never even dreamed of.

The best they can offer will be Alonso and we all know that Hamilton has teh measure of him.

I am not a Hamilton supporter, and I consider the hype surrounding him to be extremely crass and overdone - but as he hones his ability and experience I think he can become a driver that may one day beat Schumacher's record.

But it will be done without the secret advantage that Ferrari had and unlike Schumacher, Hamilton will not cheat his way to a title and he unlike Schumacher he is not afraid of who his teammate is.

Hamilton is Ferrari's future rising nightmare nemisis I would say even if Todt becomes the FIA chief.

Are you 5?

[Saint Devote]

Are you 5?

No, he flies with Captain Kirk on the Enterprise.

I am Saint Devote :D

[airshifter]

The management style of Ron Dennis was always the same - he let drivers sort it out but then would favor a specific driver at times - without contravening the rules.

This is what Ferrari has been doing and favoring Massa - they have copied Dennis becasue the blatant use of team orders is not allowed.

The Ferrari team is far more subtle - THEY stidied the machiavellian ways of Enzo. What other team would engineer a veto on the rules? This alone is even worse than the ALLEGED Renault team action.

Why? Because it is a favorable collusion between those who make the rules and those supposedly abiding by them. Yet barely a whimper was heard when the suspicions were confirmed.

Yet the same sort of thing and a good man that has always been marvellous for formula 1 is thrown under the bus.

I find that unacceptable.

If Raikkonen is forced out he should go to Brawn!!! :D

This rant doesn't address the fact that when Ferrari used team orders, it was legal to do so. That made it entirely their option, regardless of what anyone else thought of the issue.

I do seem to think that Ferrari favored Massa last year, but don't blame them. Massa was outperforming Kimi, and seemed to be much better at working with the team. I've been a fan of Kimi since he entered the sport, but Massa gained a great deal of respect from me regarding his overall abilities as a driver.


There is a thread on the Renault saga. I suggest you use that to continue trying to impose your opinions on others. ;)