Plan X

[call_me_andrew]

As it stands, the IRL is headed nowhere fast. How would you feel if NASCAR took over the IRL? I know we've discussed them taking over the 500, but I'm talking abou the whole sanctioning body. NASCAR has the cash, connections, and name recognition to save the IndyCar Series. IndyCar offers some international name recognition that could give NASCAR a boost.

[NickFalzone]

NASCAR would bury it. Although possibly slower than it's being buried now. If it comes down to it, let it die and come back fresh and new under private ownership. I'm not confident it will survive to 2011 let alone 2013, but there's a lot of money in keeping the 500 strong, so who knows how long the IRL will be propped up. Maybe long enough that it starts attracting some fans, who knows.

[garyshell]

Nick,

If it dies what makes you think it will ever come back? Who would step up to start it again? I don't see any scenario with that happening.

Gary

[F1boat]

My advice is not to bother with ratings and plans - enjoy the series while it lasts...

[beachbum]

As it stands, the IRL is headed nowhere fast. How would you feel if NASCAR took over the IRL? I know we've discussed them taking over the 500, but I'm talking abou the whole sanctioning body. NASCAR has the cash, connections, and name recognition to save the IndyCar Series. IndyCar offers some international name recognition that could give NASCAR a boost.My suspicion is NASCAR would immediately kill it off. It is competition after all.

Here (http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=344793&FS=NASCAR) is a good article about NASCAR's attitude toward other racing. Obviously, they aren't fans of technology. A realistic scenario would be to kill the IRL, make the Brickyard the premier race at Indy (NASCAR already thinks it is), and run Grand-Am at the road course now used by the IRL.

Being bought out / merged by your biggest competitor is a sure fire way to go out of business. IHMO, the IRL faces some real issues, but so does all forms of racing. Even the powers at F1 are moaning about attendance. The key for all series is to keep the costs in line with the funding available. With the same equipment being used year to year, the IRL can sustain itself as long as the prize money / TEAM money stays realistic. The IRL is right in not making a quick move to new equipment as that would probably not be economically viable right now.

[Lee Roy]

As it stands, the IRL is headed nowhere fast. How would you feel if NASCAR took over the IRL? I know we've discussed them taking over the 500, but I'm talking abou the whole sanctioning body. NASCAR has the cash, connections, and name recognition to save the IndyCar Series. IndyCar offers some international name recognition that could give NASCAR a boost.

First question is, why would NASCAR even want the IRL? I would think that the only way NASCAR would want take the IRL would be if the Indianapolis Motor Speedway came with it . . . . . at a very good price.

[Lee Roy]

Obviously, they aren't fans of technology.

With a 6 or 7 year old kit-car and a one-size-fits-all spec-motor, can the IRL be considered a fan of technology?


A realistic scenario would be to kill the IRL, make the Brickyard the premier race at Indy (NASCAR already thinks it is), and run Grand-Am at the road course now used by the IRL.


This year's B/Y 400 got a 4.8 TV rating. What did this year's Indy 500 get?

[FIAT1]

Nascar helping irl. This is a joke right?

[Chamoo]

With a 6 or 7 year old kit-car and a one-size-fits-all spec-motor, can the IRL be considered a fan of technology?



This year's B/Y 400 got a 4.8 TV rating. What did this year's Indy 500 get?

There is still more technology in one Dallara-Honda then the entire Sprint Series line up.

[Lee Roy]

There is still more technology in one Dallara-Honda then the entire Sprint Series line up.

The top Sprint Cup teams have big engine rooms where the build their own engines. The engine room for an Indy Car team is a closet where they keep the crate the engine came on.

Most Sprint Cup teams build their own chasis. A Dallara shows up in a box with "SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED, BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED" stamped on the side.

[beachbum]

The top Sprint Cup teams have big engine rooms where the build their own engines. The engine room for an Indy Car team is a closet where they keep the crate the engine came on.

Most Sprint Cup teams build their own chasis. A Dallara shows up in a box with "SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED, BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED" stamped on the side.I take it you are a huge fan of NASCAR and not the IRL. But did you read the article?

While NASCAR has some high tech elements, most people under the age of 30 have never even seen a carburetor. The teams build their own chassis because they can easily build tube frames. No autoclave needed.

Even though the teams build their own chassis and some build their own engines, make no mistake, NASCAR IS a spec series. The chassis must be "approved" and all engine parts homologated. The only big difference is who assembles the parts - a manufacturer or a team.

[Lee Roy]

I take it you are a huge fan of NASCAR and not the IRL. But did you read the article?

I'm also a big fan of Formula One. Another series where the teams build their own cars and are allowed to build their own engines.


While NASCAR has some high tech elements, most people under the age of 30 have never even seen a carburetor. The teams build their own chassis because they can easily build tube frames. No autoclave needed.

Robin Miller once said that Hendrick Motorsports has more engineers than the entire IRL.

Penske and Gurney used to build their own "Indy Cars". But that was in the day when "Indy Cars" were considered "high-tech".


Even though the teams build their own chassis and some build their own engines, make no mistake, NASCAR IS a spec series. The chassis must be "approved" and all engine parts homologated. The only big difference is who assembles the parts - a manufacturer or a team.

You're really reaching now. According to your definition, all racing series, even Formula One and Le Mans, is a "Spec Series". Every racing series has rules, and some are tighter than others. So what?

The chasis must be "approved"?? Well, what series doesn't "approve" the chasis that run in their series?

There are 4 engine block/head assemblys to choose from. The teams build out the rest of the parts. One from each manufacturer. And they continue to develop new ones. Ford will be debuting their new engine at Charlotte next month. Yes, they must be approved. Point me to a racing series that doesn't approve the engines that run in their series.

If there were no room for "building a better mouse-trap", they would all be getting their engines from one source to save money. They don't.

Try telling Jack Rousch that he has to get his engine from the same place that Rick Hendrick does.


http://www.jayski.com/pages/enginerules.htm

[Chamoo]

I heard last night that Kevin Kalkhoven would be interested if the IRL went up for sale. Robin Miller asked him the question and he responded with neither a yes or a no.

[SarahFan]

I heard last night that Kevin Kalkhoven would be interested if the IRL went up for sale. Robin Miller asked him the question and he responded with neither a yes or a no.

that's interesting...

there is a rumor floating around that penske is interested also.....


HMMM

[SoCalPVguy]

If I actually thought that Nascar would actually promote Indycar as a world class open wheel series on a challenging series of varying courses, that would be one thing.

Seeing as I don't think that and I do think the Frances would either:
1. kill it off/cancel it and take the Indy track for stockcars only premier event (the "NEW Indy 500"...), or
2. Make it a minor leagure support series to the taxi cabs on inferior location running Friday nights.... replacing the truck series which is as good as dead now.

Either way the France's mission in life is to make taxi cab racing No. 1 in the world; and they'll never let Indycar be a premier series. So I'd be against Nascab buyout of ICS.

[SoCalPVguy]

I heard last night that Kevin Kalkhoven would be interested if the IRL went up for sale. Robin Miller asked him the question and he responded with neither a yes or a no.

My sources say KK is OOM (out of money)

[SoCalPVguy]

that's interesting... there is a rumor floating around that penske is interested also..... MMM

If it was a "good deal" Penske would already have an interest in it now. Penske does not buy businesses that lose money.

[Jag_Warrior]

I heard last night that Kevin Kalkhoven would be interested if the IRL went up for sale.

Q5UrVdvk1Ao

[SarahFan]

If it was a "good deal" Penske would already have an interest in it now. Penske does not buy businesses that lose money.

has it ever (or even now) been for sale?

[Chamoo]

My sources say KK is OOM (out of money)

My sources say he is still quite wealthy. Apparently Forsythe would buy it just to spite the George family, and he still has the money. But, those kind things usually don't happen. GF is still somewhat interested if he can find a good partner. Was not happy KK sold out.

[beachbum]

Robin Miller once said that Hendrick Motorsports has more engineers than the entire IRL.Very likely true. They probably have more money available than the entire IRL as well


Penske and Gurney used to build their own "Indy Cars". But that was in the day when "Indy Cars" were considered "high-tech".It was also in the day when you couldn't buy a complete Indy car easily from anyone. Oddly enough, Penske switched from building his own cars to buying (and yes modifying) manufactured cars like March and Lola. Even F1 is pushing for "customer cars" and will have a spec engine for many teams in 2010 (Cosworth)



You're really reaching now. According to your definition, all racing series, even Formula One and Le Mans, is a "Spec Series". Every racing series has rules, and some are tighter than others. So what?

If there were no room for "building a better mouse-trap", they would all be getting their engines from one source to save money. They don't.

Try telling Jack Rousch that he has to get his engine from the same place that Rick Hendrick does.No doubt some series are more spec than others, but just because you build your own doesn't mean that is necessarily a good thing.

If you look over the racing history, there was a time every team built their own engines. Now the number of engine builders are dwindling. Nearly all of the Chevy are built by Hendrick, or EGR, the Fords almost all come from Roush-Yates, only Penske will be running Dodge, and the Toyotas are either JGR or TRD. Reports have the best engines going for up to 100,000 per engine (http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/9301690/Toyota%27s-engines-attract-questions), which isn't exactly economical. No wonder NASCAR has floated the idea of sealed crate engines (http://www.mikemulhern.net/index.php?q=mikestake/doug-yates-its-time-nascar-cut-sprint-cup-horsepower-and-mandate-crate-engine-standard-sav) for the Trucks. Even many of the smaller teams buy chassis (and engines) from Triad (http://triadracingtechnologies.com/) or chassis builders like KHI who even hang the bodies. There was a time most top teams bought their chassis.

Strictly speaking, compnaies like Hendrick and Roush should be called manufacturers, because that is what they are. They certainly have built - and sold - more cars that have ever been built by Dallara for the IRL. There are many NASCAR teams running engines and cars built by others. Who was leading the SPRINT cups points? Tony Stewart - with cars and engines supplied by Hendrick.

It is just a different way to go racing. As the money gets tighter in NASCAR, you see more teams merging or forming partnerships, more engine shops closing, and more moves to economize. The day when every car was unique has given way to more common components and constructions.

[Lee Roy]

It was also in the day when you couldn't buy a complete Indy car easily from anyone.

Really??? It was in the mid-1990's that Penske and Gurney were building their chasis. I think that between Lola and Reynard, there were plenty of chasis for the a$king. And in those days, those manufacturers were coming out with new chasis every year. What year is the current Dallara?

[Lee Roy]

If you look over the racing history, there was a time every team built their own engines. Now the number of engine builders are dwindling. Nearly all of the Chevy are built by Hendrick, or EGR, the Fords almost all come from Roush-Yates, only Penske will be running Dodge, and the Toyotas are either JGR or TRD. Reports have the best engines going for up to 100,000 per engine (http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/9301690/Toyota%27s-engines-attract-questions), which isn't exactly economical. No wonder NASCAR has floated the idea of sealed crate engines (http://www.mikemulhern.net/index.php?q=mikestake/doug-yates-its-time-nascar-cut-sprint-cup-horsepower-and-mandate-crate-engine-standard-sav) for the Trucks. Even many of the smaller teams buy chassis (and engines) from Triad (http://triadracingtechnologies.com/) or chassis builders like KHI who even hang the bodies. There was a time most top teams bought their chassis.

Strictly speaking, compnaies like Hendrick and Roush should be called manufacturers, because that is what they are. They certainly have built - and sold - more cars that have ever been built by Dallara for the IRL. There are many NASCAR teams running engines and cars built by others. Who was leading the SPRINT cups points? Tony Stewart - with cars and engines supplied by Hendrick.

It is just a different way to go racing. As the money gets tighter in NASCAR, you see more teams merging or forming partnerships, more engine shops closing, and more moves to economize.

Glad to see that you've begun to qualify your "spec-car" statement.

Hey, I don't care if only a few teams build engines and sell to others, and I don't care if the teams can buy the engines and chasis from several manufacturers. I just want there to be some differences between the cars on the grid.

When NASCAR or Formula One go to a "crate-engine" or are required to buy their chasis from a common provider, then I'll find some other form of sport to follow. That isn't racing.


The day when every car was unique has given way to more common components and constructions.

There never was a day when every car was unique. But for NASCAR and Formula One there never has been a day when the cars were all carbon copies of each other from the same manufacturer (or were required to be) and the engines were all de-tuned lumps from the same provider and everyone had to line up at the truck to get it.

When there is, I'm gone.

[Jag_Warrior]

Let's say that either Kalkhoven or Forsythe bought the IRL (and IMS). What would be different? What would either of them do that's any different than what George & Co. have done?

I'm just being honest. I'm not (just) bashing them. But what have we seen that indicates that either of them has the first clue about branding and merchandising, or building a consumer or media focused enterprise? Their success has been built on B2B operations. Not to defend Kalkhoven, but don't we all realize that CCWS wasn't going to make it with 12-14 cars (at best)? And just like the fantasies in the IRL about that big burst of sunshine that's right around the corner, CCWS (in reality) was going no where fast.

I am a great fan of Cosworth. I really am. Have been for decades. I was buying items here and there from their Ebay store for several years. Last time I looked, the store was gone. WTF? The best option I can find right now is to go through an engine builder and pay even more exhorbitant prices for already over priced pieces. Cosworth can't even run an Ebay store? How hard could that be?! Debbie Downer though I may be, I look back in agreement to the comment that Tony George has been trying to sell onion gum for years... and Kalkhoven and Forsythe couldn't sell snow cones to rich kids on a hot summer day. I'm basing that assessment on their past actions (ride buyers galore, support for Joe Heitzler, goof ball TV contracts, goof ball overseas races and negotiations, goof ball domestic races and negotiations, screwed up media relations, p!ss poor sponsor relations, etc.), not my feelings about them as people (I don't know either of them).

I just don't see the root cause of AOWR's problems as being ownership or the current TV partner, as much as lack of a plan that is tied to the reality of the here & now, which determines the future state. If you don't know where you are, how are you going to get to where you want to be??? Whether it's George, Forsythe or Kalkhoven... IMO, they're all lost like a small ball in tall grass.

[call_me_andrew]

Hey, I don't care if only a few teams build engines and sell to others, and I don't care if the teams can buy the engines and chasis from several manufacturers. I just want there to be some differences between the cars on the grid.

They're aren't any differences between a Roush Ford COT and a Hendrick Chevrolet COT. The Sprint Cup rule book lays out specific blueprints for the COT. COTs aren't built, they're assembled.


First question is, why would NASCAR even want the IRL? I would think that the only way NASCAR would want take the IRL would be if the Indianapolis Motor Speedway came with it . . . . . at a very good price.

I already explained this. IndyCar still has name recognition outside the U.S. More Europeans have heard of the Indy 500 than the Daytona 500.


If I actually thought that Nascar would actually promote Indycar as a world class open wheel series on a challenging series of varying courses, that would be one thing.

Seeing as I don't think that and I do think the Frances would either:
1. kill it off/cancel it and take the Indy track for stockcars only premier event (the "NEW Indy 500"...), or
2. Make it a minor leagure support series to the taxi cabs on inferior location running Friday nights.... replacing the truck series which is as good as dead now.

Either way the France's mission in life is to make taxi cab racing No. 1 in the world; and they'll never let Indycar be a premier series. So I'd be against Nascab buyout of ICS.

I assure you, that' is not the Frances' mission in life. Brian France is first and foremost, a capitalist. If he thought he could make a dollar in profit off "Celebrty Go-Karts", he'd be on the horn about it right now.

You do know that NASCAR was sanctioning OW racing before the Sprint Cup Series was right? NASCAR wants to be No. 1 in the world, and they don't care if it's taxi cabs, crap wagons, or a soap box derby.

And the truck series is thriving! It's the only series NASCAR has that doesn't need forced parity over the last 10 races to have a close championship. Heck, it gets better ratings than the IndyCar Series...

Now as to that article, I enjoy a bit of technolgy with my racing, but I'm not looking to start the new F1. It's not as though Tony George has done much to create technological competition in the series, and the three amigos eliminated whatever technological competition remained from Champ Car. ALMS is going through some hard times. I'm not really sure they'll be around next year. Plus, Grand-Am has more technological differences between Daytona Prototype constructors that it puts the COT to shame.

[garyshell]

When NASCAR or Formula One go to a "crate-engine" or are required to buy their chasis from a common provider, then I'll find some other form of sport to follow. That isn't racing.

I would surmise from this that you think the original IROC series wasn't racing huh? Some of us, me included, think it was the ultimate form of racing. It was all about the driver.

Gary

[Oli_M]

I already explained this. IndyCar still has name recognition outside the U.S. More Europeans have heard of the Indy 500 than the Daytona 500.


I'm going to have to disagree here. I'm from the UK and when you mention IndyCar to any motorsport fan here the comments are something like "oh isn't that american F1 cars on an oval?" - People don't know what the "Indy 500" is, when I've mentioned it around the race time this year I often heard "is that a Nascar race?" or something similar.

Its rather sad that when we have a Brit potentially challenging for another championship and Justin Wilson winning his first race for a small team, there is NO mention of the series in any press, and I don't think I've really been aware of many people who know we have a number of good drivers in the series.

Compared to NASCAR, where there are NO Brits, and only one European, the Daytona 500 I was surprised to see got a sidebar article in my daily newspaper. There are often NASCAR mentions (not a lot, say one every month or so, but still way more than Indycar) perhaps helped by the fact that drivers like Montoya, who are well known, are doing well.

Neither series has very much presence at all in the UK, but I have to be honest here and say at the moment, NASCAR does have more.......

[beachbum]

When NASCAR or Formula One go to a "crate-engine" or are required to buy their chasis from a common provider, then I'll find some other form of sport to follow. That isn't racing.

There never was a day when every car was unique.
When there is, I'm gone.Myopia is alive and well. Based on your assertions, you might as well leave now.

Both NASCAR and F1 are moving to the equivalent of a crate engine (F1 is talking engine "equivalency" rules), and F1 teams can be sharing chassis in the next rules package. How many current F1 teams run the same Mercedes engine? Many of the smaller NASCAR teams buy their chassis with bodies hung from the same race car builders (manufacturers) and buy engines from the same engine builders. How about going to sprint cars like WOO? Opps, they buy their chassis and engines. Grand-Am? Just a few manufacturers (but you really need a Riley to win) with mostly the same parts under the body and an engine equivalency formula. Ok, NHRA. Ah, most teams buy the same chassis, bodies,and engine parts from the same suppliers. They may assemble them differently, but that is true in all racing.

It is mostly an illusion that there are big differences from one machine to another. Even NASCAR teams are moving toward buying more and bigger "lumps" from a very few suppliers rather than "rolling their own". It just makes economic sense. Most F1 engineers don't even care what "lump" is in the back. In the late 60's and early 70's (a period some consider a golden age of F1) the Cosworth DFV was basically a crate engine. For nearly a decade, almost everyone ran the same "lump". In 1969 and 1973 every World Championship race was won by DFV-powered cars. linky thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosworth_DFV)

Back "in the day" when teams built nearly all of their own stuff (pre-COT), every car was unique in some way. Even on the same team, the chassis design and body might be very different from car to car. As cars became more manufactured rather than hand build, the uniqueness mostly disappeared. (Don't forget templates) Teams build a lot of pieces, but they buy a lot of assemblies as well - some large assemblies. But even today in a "spec" series like the IRL, there can be considerable variation from car to car. They may start with the same seed parts, but do you really think a Dallara run by Penske is the same as one run by 3G?

Many years ago, I was preparing racing motorcycles for "production" based racing. Theoretically, all parts were homologated and all bikes should have been almost exactly the same. But there were often considerable differences from one to another and some were more "production" than others. In the end, they weren't big performance differences through the field, which made for fantastic racing. The fans mostly saw the difference in the racers talent, not the difference in the tuners talent. In my mind, that is racing.

[Lee Roy]

Let me explain one more time, and I'll speak real slow so maybe you'll be able to understand.

You seem to feel that there are two extremes with no grey area in between. Either a racing series has all completely unique formula libre cars or it is a spec series. Most racing has fallen somewhere in the middle. You cited many examples of where there are tight rules and where there are only a few choices of different equipment. But hey, that's okay with me. For me to enjoy racing I want there to be at least some choice of equipment and some opportunity for the teams to make input into the performance of the car, such as the opportunity to build or prepare their own engine.

I find most Indy Car fans are trying to make out that the rest of the racing world is running "Spec Cars" so they can feel better about the IRL teams having only once choice of an already built car and only one choice of an already prepared and tuned engine that they are forbidden to lay a wrench on.


Myopia is alive and well. Based on your assertions, you might as well leave now.

Both NASCAR and F1 are moving to the equivalent of a crate engine (F1 is talking engine "equivalency" rules), and F1 teams can be sharing chassis in the next rules package. How many current F1 teams run the same Mercedes engine? Many of the smaller NASCAR teams buy their chassis with bodies hung from the same race car builders (manufacturers) and buy engines from the same engine builders. How about going to sprint cars like WOO? Opps, they buy their chassis and engines. Grand-Am? Just a few manufacturers (but you really need a Riley to win) with mostly the same parts under the body and an engine equivalency formula. Ok, NHRA. Ah, most teams buy the same chassis, bodies,and engine parts from the same suppliers. They may assemble them differently, but that is true in all racing.

It is mostly an illusion that there are big differences from one machine to another. Even NASCAR teams are moving toward buying more and bigger "lumps" from a very few suppliers rather than "rolling their own". It just makes economic sense. Most F1 engineers don't even care what "lump" is in the back. In the late 60's and early 70's (a period some consider a golden age of F1) the Cosworth DFV was basically a crate engine. For nearly a decade, almost everyone ran the same "lump". In 1969 and 1973 every World Championship race was won by DFV-powered cars. linky thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosworth_DFV)

Back "in the day" when teams built nearly all of their own stuff (pre-COT), every car was unique in some way. Even on the same team, the chassis design and body might be very different from car to car. As cars became more manufactured rather than hand build, the uniqueness mostly disappeared. (Don't forget templates) Teams build a lot of pieces, but they buy a lot of assemblies as well - some large assemblies. But even today in a "spec" series like the IRL, there can be considerable variation from car to car. They may start with the same seed parts, but do you really think a Dallara run by Penske is the same as one run by 3G?

Many years ago, I was preparing racing motorcycles for "production" based racing. Theoretically, all parts were homologated and all bikes should have been almost exactly the same. But there were often considerable differences from one to another and some were more "production" than others. In the end, they weren't big performance differences through the field, which made for fantastic racing. The fans mostly saw the difference in the racers talent, not the difference in the tuners talent. In my mind, that is racing.

[Lee Roy]

Thanks Oli_M. I visit friends in England almost every year and find it to be the same.

Many Indy Car fans try to make out that there is a big following worldwide to asuage their disappointment that Indy takes a back seat to NASCAR here in the US.

I remember when the proprietor of Auto Racing 1 used to claim that half the population of China were CART fans.


I'm going to have to disagree here. I'm from the UK and when you mention IndyCar to any motorsport fan here the comments are something like "oh isn't that american F1 cars on an oval?" - People don't know what the "Indy 500" is, when I've mentioned it around the race time this year I often heard "is that a Nascar race?" or something similar.

Its rather sad that when we have a Brit potentially challenging for another championship and Justin Wilson winning his first race for a small team, there is NO mention of the series in any press, and I don't think I've really been aware of many people who know we have a number of good drivers in the series.

Compared to NASCAR, where there are NO Brits, and only one European, the Daytona 500 I was surprised to see got a sidebar article in my daily newspaper. There are often NASCAR mentions (not a lot, say one every month or so, but still way more than Indycar) perhaps helped by the fact that drivers like Montoya, who are well known, are doing well.

Neither series has very much presence at all in the UK, but I have to be honest here and say at the moment, NASCAR does have more.......

[Lee Roy]

I would surmise from this that you think the original IROC series wasn't racing huh? Some of us, me included, think it was the ultimate form of racing. It was all about the driver.

Gary

I didn't really consider it a "racing series". It was an exhibition. And if the drivers hadn't made their names in real racing series, it wouldn't have existed.

I was actually at the finale of the first series IROC series in Daytona in 1974. Very enjoyable.

I imagine that IROC is a pretty good model for the future if the Indy 500. I predict that in about 4 or 5 years, all of the cars will be owned by the speedway and the "drivers" will rent the cars for the month of May. It will become essentially as "arrive and drive" type of a race. Kinda like a go-kart track.

[Lee Roy]

They're aren't any differences between a Roush Ford COT and a Hendrick Chevrolet COT. The Sprint Cup rule book lays out specific blueprints for the COT. COTs aren't built, they're assembled.


But they do have the ability to build them. If there weren't any advantages to be gained, however slight, they would all be saving tons of money buying them from the COT store.

[Lee Roy]

Myopia is alive and well. Based on your assertions, you might as well leave now.


To sum it up (it just hit me). To me there's a big difference between a series where the cars and/or engines are built and tuned to try to outperform each other (however tight the rules may be), and a series where the cars and/or engines are built and tuned to be just like each other.

[beachgirl]

And the truck series is thriving! It's the only series NASCAR has that doesn't need forced parity over the last 10 races to have a close championship. Heck, it gets better ratings than the IndyCar Series...



Have you even WATCHED any of the truck races lately? The racing might be good, but NOBODY is at the track. Unless they are all dressed as aluminum seats. I watched the last race, and I hardly needed more than my fingers and toes to count all the spectators. Compared to the spectators at the truck races, Indycar is the one who's thriving.

Forced parity or not, the truck series is dying. Unfortunate, but true. IMHO.

[speeddurango]

irl is rival to NASCAR and in American motorsport; and they would always be on the 2 ends of a seesaw when both are thriving; if irl is managed by NASCAR, it'll only be auxiliary to NASCAR.

[beachbum]

One is a contest between designers/builders (like the original CanAm or, in some ways, today's F1) and the other is a contest between drivers. Although a pure one or the other has never existed. I'm guessing that most racing fans prefer a combination of both. Everybody probably has a different place along that A to Z scale that floats their own personal boat.Excellent explanation. As an engineer, I loved the old Can-Am because of the cars and often almost bizarre technical solutions (the roller skate Shadow for example). I also appreciate just how difficult it is to work in a highly restricted series and try to make your lump just a bit better then the competitors. But in the end, there isn't anything more enjoyable to watch as a virtuoso on-track performance by a talented racer.

Racing is man against man, whether the man is an engineer, a tuner, or a driver. (I use the generic man as in mankind, not as in male). That is what great racing is all about.

[beachbum]

And the truck series is thriving! It's the only series NASCAR has that doesn't need forced parity over the last 10 races to have a close championship. Heck, it gets better ratings than the IndyCar Series...Ah, close racing - really? More than any other NASCAR series, it has been dominated by one driver and one team. Hornaday has a 200 point lead, and only 16 drivers have run every race. The fields are shrinking rapidly, and there is something wrong when last year's champion ran most of 2008 without major sponsorship and didn't even have a ride for most of this year. As someone mentioned, most of the fans in the stands wear aluminum. Not exactly thriving.

As for "forced" parity, the trucks is the one NASCAR series seriously talking about sealed crate engines to keep costs down. And what other racing other than NASCAR has "qualify and park" teams? That should be embarrassing to NASCAR, at any level.

Ratings? College football gets much higher ratings than almost all NASCAR races, and Pro Bowling had almost as many households watching (GEICO PBA Team Shootout - 450,000 viewers per half hour) as the trucks (492,000 households at Bristol)

[call_me_andrew]

As for "forced" parity, the trucks is the one NASCAR series seriously talking about sealed crate engines to keep costs down. And what other racing other than NASCAR has "qualify and park" teams? That should be embarrassing to NASCAR, at any level.

By forced parity, I mean there's no chase.


Have you even WATCHED any of the truck races lately? The racing might be good, but NOBODY is at the track. Unless they are all dressed as aluminum seats. I watched the last race, and I hardly needed more than my fingers and toes to count all the spectators. Compared to the spectators at the truck races, Indycar is the one who's thriving.

Forced parity or not, the truck series is dying. Unfortunate, but true. IMHO.

Of course there's a lot of empty seats. It's a feeder series. A feeder series that gets better ratings than the IndyCar Series.


But they do have the ability to build them. If there weren't any advantages to be gained, however slight, they would all be saving tons of money buying them from the COT store.

Not building, assembling. Building implies that they're designing the end product from scratch. NASCAR designed the chassis. Teams need only assemble the parts. A lot of teams do buy them to save money on fabricators.

[garyshell]

When NASCAR or Formula One go to a "crate-engine" or are required to buy their chasis from a common provider, then I'll find some other form of sport to follow. That isn't racing.


I would surmise from this that you think the original IROC series wasn't racing huh? Some of us, me included, think it was the ultimate form of racing. It was all about the driver.


I didn't really consider it a "racing series". It was an exhibition.

Oh, so now we go from spec cars = "That isn't racing" to IROC spec cars not being a "racing series". I didn't ask if it was a race series or not, I asked if you considered it racing or not.

Gary

[garyshell]

Let me explain one more time, and I'll speak real slow so maybe you'll be able to understand.

You seem to feel that there are two extremes with no grey area in between. Either a racing series has all completely unique formula libre cars or it is a spec series. Most racing has fallen somewhere in the middle. You cited many examples of where there are tight rules and where there are only a few choices of different equipment. But hey, that's okay with me. For me to enjoy racing I want there to be at least some choice of equipment and some opportunity for the teams to make input into the performance of the car, such as the opportunity to build or prepare their own engine.

I find most Indy Car fans are trying to make out that the rest of the racing world is running "Spec Cars" so they can feel better about the IRL teams having only once choice of an already built car and only one choice of an already prepared and tuned engine that they are forbidden to lay a wrench on.

And I'll speak real slow as well on the off chance that it might help you understand. I find most NASCAR fans who come to the Indy car threads to post about this are in denial about how much their own series has become homogenized, that they need to hold their series up against one that does not PRETEND that it is not a spec series.

NASCAR has become a joke. The headlight decals on the front of the cars to make them appear to be different are a joke. My uncle who drove in NASCAR in the 60's must be rolling over in his grave. If it makes you feel better that there are three engine builders in the series I am overjoyed for you. The reality is they are all building the same damn thing and slapping it into IDENTICAL chassis, with IDENTICAL bodies with stupid little decals to trick the fans into thinking they are seeing Fords and Chevys and Toyotas out there. It's a sham. But hey, if it makes you feel superior that your favorite series has those three shops to build engines and a choice of three or four sets of headlight and grill work decals, while our favorite series makes no bones about the fact that it is a full spec series then good for you.


BTW I used to LOVE NASCAR racing when I was a kid and the cars really were stock cars. I grew less interested when they went to the tube framed versions of street cars, but I understood the need for safety. But them came the common templates and my interest wanned more. And then came the POS COT. I lost all interest until Juan decided to drive there. I'd watch that man drive a tricycle.

Gary

[beachbum]

By forced parity, I mean there's no chase.Ok, I'll buy that. I think the "chase" is contrived as well, but racing is also entertainment and it does add to the entertainment factor, just as inverted grids do in some series, or weight handicaps for winners in others. But NASCAR seems real comfortable with "manipulated" racing. I have never seen so many "debris" cautions. They should just be honest and say they are "competition yellows" to bunch the field.

Oddly enough, after last night the closest points race in racing is now the IRL with only 8 points covering the top 3 and it doesn't have a "chase".

[Lee Roy]

If it makes you feel better that there are three engine builders in the series I am overjoyed for you.

There are more than three engine builders.


The reality is they are all building the same damn thing . . . . .

No, that's Honda building the same damn thing for the IRL.

I'm glad you're happy that Indy Car racing, which was once know for cutting edge innovation in technology and great feats of engineering excellence to try to win, has now become a series where none of that exists any more. I'm not sure how anyone who remembers what Indy used to mean can be happy watching to see a bunch of identical crap wagons with identical engines tuned to be all identical circling around.

But if you're happy, good for you.

[Lee Roy]

Not building, assembling. Building implies that they're designing the end product from scratch. NASCAR designed the chassis. Teams need only assemble the parts. A lot of teams do buy them to save money on fabricators.

You say "tomato" I say "tomahto".

Yes some teams do buy the cars to save money of fabrication. Wonder why the rest don't? Could be that they are able to make some improvements. Other wise, why maintain a fabrication department?

[garyshell]

There are more than three engine builders.


Three, four, six... who cares they are still basically building the same damn thing. There is very little to differentiate one from another.


No, that's Honda building the same damn thing for the IRL.

I'm glad you're happy that Indy Car racing, which was once know for cutting edge innovation in technology and great feats of engineering excellence to try to win, has now become a series where none of that exists any more. I'm not sure how anyone who remembers what Indy used to mean can be happy watching to see a bunch of identical crap wagons with identical engines tuned to be all identical circling around.

Where did I say I was happy with it? I never said I was happy, nor did I ever delude myself into pretending it was not a spec series. Lets take your last sentence above and change just a couple of words:

I'm not sure how anyone who remembers what NASCAR used to mean can be happy watching to see a bunch of identical crap COT wagons with nearly identical engines tuned to be all identical circling around waiting for the next "debris caution".

Like I said, most of us who continue to watch the IRL will readily admit that the series is a ghost of its former self when it comes to the spec racing. But it appears that most of the NASCAR folks who come here to argue are like Cleopatra, queen of d' nile.

Gary