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Somebody
30th August 2009, 17:05
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/08/30/oh-dear-here-comes-trouble/

Flavio may have ample cause to regret firing Piquet before long...

Dave B
30th August 2009, 17:07
It was more likely to have been Elvis riding Shergar behind a grassy knoll, but I guess people love a good conspiracy theory.

christophulus
30th August 2009, 17:10
Ha, I thought it was quite convenient at the time! Can't see it ever being proved even if it did happen.

Tazio
30th August 2009, 17:22
Don't believe everything you read!
Although I believe it is quite possibly true!
If he had some way to substanciate the claim, he could sue Flav for every penny he has for asking him to purpoely put his life at risk.
in the execution of doing a Job that does not include purposely crashing cars in races!

Giuseppe F1
30th August 2009, 17:28
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21777.html

AUGUST 30, 2009
Allegations fly over Singapore 2008

The Brazilian TV station Globo has claimed that Nelson Piquet was ordered to crash by the Renault team during the Singapore GP last year. The accident resulted in a Safety Car which played into the hands of Fernando Alonso, who had pitted just before the accident occurred. The result was that Renault was able to win the race.

There were suspicions at the time that this had happened but there was no proof. Since Piquet was fired by Renault, claims have been flying around and Globo says that it has received information that there is evidence to back up the story. We hear that the FIA may call in an independent body to investigate the claims being made.

ioan
30th August 2009, 17:29
Now this is something unexpected.

Tazio
30th August 2009, 17:34
Don't believe everything you read!
Although I believe it is quite possibly true!
If he had some way to substanciate the claim, he could sue Flav for every penny he has for asking him to purpoely put his life at risk.
in the execution of doing a Job that does not include purposely crashing cars in races!
Only if they can prove it!
There has to be something to carbonate this other than a disgruntled ex-employee. Duh!

Dave B
30th August 2009, 17:38
Am I dreaming, or was there a similar thread which disappeared? Anyhoo, I don't buy it. No team boss would order their driver to deliberately risk their lives by crashing, just to help out a team mate. Would they? :s

I'd be less surprised if Michael Jackson drove for Ferrari next race.

Robinho
30th August 2009, 17:40
that would be huge if true, however i would imagine there is absolutely no proof - if it was on radio transmissions it would have come out at the time surely?!

i doubt piquet downloaded the instructions onto the IPOD whilst driving, although that might make some account for his driving.

unless someone in the team supports the claim i can't honestly see anything coming from it - thats not to say i couldn't imagine it having happened, nothin surprises me anymore.

what excuses is Piquet coming up with for all his other crashes/spins etc? it was hardly out of Character was it.

and if such a stupid instruction came out, and Piquet was stupid enough to endager himself and the other drivers by actualy following it through then he is a bigger fool than i already thought

christophulus
30th August 2009, 17:41
No team boss would order their driver to deliberately risk their lives by crashing, just to help out a team mate. Would they? :s

Maybe that's why Piquet was kept on for the second season, to buy his silence! It certainly wasn't due to race pace. :p

I don't buy it, but given how much Flav appears to like Alonso and dislike Piquet.... well, stranger things have happened

christophulus
30th August 2009, 17:52
FIA seem to be investigating:



FIA confirms investigation

August 30, 2009 by joesaward (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/author/joesaward/)

The FIA has confirmed that there is an investigation under way regarding what the spokesperson called “alleged incidents at a previous FIA Formula 1 World Championship event”.

The confirmation comes following reports on Brazilian TV that Renault driver Nelson Piquet was ordered to crash by the Renault team in the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix to enable his team-mate Fernando Alonso to take advantage of an early pit stop in order to win a surprising victory.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/08/30/fia-confirms-investigation/

Dave B
30th August 2009, 18:15
If (bold, italics and underlined - I'd make it flash in giant red letters if only I could) there's any truth in this then Flavio should be kicked out of F1 for good. But I repeat: I'd be amazed if it's true.

Anubis
30th August 2009, 18:31
Shades of Schumacher binning it during qualifying at Monaco to red flag the session? Difficult to prove, unless there's some serious "smoking gun" evidence, but sadly I CAN see it happening. Stretches the definition of teamwork and strategy to the absolute limit, but a quick glance at F1 history will tell you it's more than possible.

F1boat
30th August 2009, 19:09
To me this can not be proved.

Robinho
30th August 2009, 19:25
If (bold, italics and underlined - I'd make it flash in giant red letters if only I could) there's any truth in this then Flavio should be kicked out of F1 for good. But I repeat: I'd be amazed if it's true.


i wouldn't be amazed if its true, i would, however, be amazed if they can prove anything

ioan
30th August 2009, 19:39
Apparently an investigation has been launched immediately after the race and was carried out by a private company.

It might just be that with Piquet being fired by Renault they managed to put together the latest missing pieces in the puzzle and now they are going for Flavio.
I wouldn't bother if they rid the paddock of him.

BTW, rumor is that after the race Felipe has learned from Piquet what happened and he had a word with Flav and than complained to the FIA.

Sonic
30th August 2009, 19:40
Oh goody, another scandal! However this one is unlikely to have a paper trail to prove it - otherwise Renault would never of sacked PQ.

F1boat
30th August 2009, 19:58
Now, however, I see that despite his pleasant attitude, the little Piquet is as venomous as his father. The dark side is strong with them...

keysersoze
30th August 2009, 20:42
The accident itself was really quite odd (read: suspicious) as I recall it: oversteering on the accelerator out of a 90 degree turn enough to loop it HARD into the INSIDE wall that he demolished his Renault.

Is this how you all remember it?

Tazio
30th August 2009, 20:46
I wouldn't bother if they rid the paddock of him.

BTW, rumor is that after the race Felipe has learned from Piquet what happened and he had a word with Flav and than complained to the FIA.Ioan I agree with everything you stated in your post, except I'm indifferent to Flavio.
I am only quoting the part I would like to address.
If Pique has fabricated this story, and then told it to Massa. If it can somehow be proved
I believe Pique should be banned from racing period!
I don't think he did. But if so, and it can be substantiated.
Flavio will get everything NP ever owned after the slander settlement!

Shifter
30th August 2009, 21:58
The accident itself was really quite odd (read: suspicious) as I recall it: oversteering on the accelerator out of a 90 degree turn enough to loop it HARD into the INSIDE wall that he demolished his Renault.

Is this how you all remember it?

IIRC the Renaults had 'extra paddles' behind the steering wheel that changed the level of torque transferred or something like that, and experts surmised that Piquet was crossed up working those paddles through the corner. But that was just an assumption.

Garry Walker
30th August 2009, 22:16
I would not be surprised.

anthonyvop
30th August 2009, 22:18
Aren't all F1 radio transmissions monitored?
So how could Renault tell Piquet to crash without somebody from the FIA hearing it?

Keep moving....Nothing to see here.

Somebody
30th August 2009, 22:28
Autosport are also mentioning it now, and confirm that an FIA investigation is underway: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78195

CNR
30th August 2009, 22:36
how hard would it be ?
did redbull tell toro rosso to do it

gm99
30th August 2009, 22:40
Piquet Jr. himself dismissed any talk of him deliberately crashing in the April issue of F1 Racing:


Yeah, I wanted to try and kill myself to help Fernando get a podium. I was pushing hard and I spun. The team called Fernando in at the right moment. Sh!t happens for me and he gets lucky. Like in pre-season testing this year!"


Of course, he was still driving for Renault at that time ;)

But seriously, I can't see that having happened: First, I don't think Piquet is that much of a team player-he probably wouldn't have done something that makes him look stupid just to help the team. Second, as such a move can hardly be pre-planned, Renault would have had to find a way to let Piquet know when to crash without the other teams and the FIA noticing.

Garry Walker
30th August 2009, 22:42
Aren't all F1 radio transmissions monitored?
So how could Renault tell Piquet to crash without somebody from the FIA hearing it?
.It was, if the allegations are true, thought up pre-race and they possibly didnt even need to tell him anything during the race on the radio.
Just a board out from the pit area that its lap xx, which was enough for Piquet for him to know what to do then.

BDunnell
30th August 2009, 22:43
I suspect this will be a very hard thing to prove conclusively — which shouldn't stop the FIA imposing a penalty no matter what the outcome is, on recent form.

F1boat
30th August 2009, 22:46
Can Max leave this troublesome question to Jean or Ari?

truefan72
30th August 2009, 22:51
what a mess. why investigate now?

Garry Walker
30th August 2009, 22:55
what a mess. why investigate now?

So if a crime is committed today and nobody knows about this crime till next years july, should it not be investigated?

truefan72
30th August 2009, 23:26
So if a crime is committed today and nobody knows about this crime till next years july, should it not be investigated?

this isn't a criminal act or a matter of law.

Trust me, I would be happy to have Hamilton gain some extra points in the end, and imagine if massa had won the WDC, and then this comes out, so 8 months later they would overturn the championship and award it to hamilton.

Now if they are going to investigate past incidents, the first one to start with would be the disgrace at Spa last year.

Also, so what punishment should Renault 2009 receive for acions in Renault 2008. It is a mess, and I am not saying Renault are not guilty, I just don't see what difference it makes today.

What I do see is FIa/Mosley's now firmly setting their sights on Renault as they did on Maclaren. MM wants another $100 million fine, and expulsion to get one over his fota rivals and destroy the organization on the way out.

This kind of action is unprecedented in every way and smells fishy. I supposes the chief informant is Piquet, but there would have to be proper evidence to support his claim. And i am not sure that there is any. It is too far fetched of a conspiracy for it to be true.

...then again, we might be all jumping the gun and the FIA is investigating soemthing else.

ioan
30th August 2009, 23:32
Second, as such a move can hardly be pre-planned, Renault would have had to find a way to let Piquet know when to crash without the other teams and the FIA noticing.

After Alonso's pit stop obviously, what was so hard to plan about it?
All they needed was to tell Piquet to bin it at corner x after they tell him to push (something they do often).

truefan72
30th August 2009, 23:37
this is highly unlikely and I seriously doubt that there is any proof.

Now if it is proven somehow(we all knoe FIA's standards for reprimands) then piquet is just as guilty as flav and the team. If renault get banned, he should too and be stripped of a super license. Trust me, if it were true and as soon as piquet was told to do so, he had all the trump cards in his hand. If he did not comply and continued to race, then there is nothing Renault could have done without that being exposed. So he would have been in complete control of his destiny.

To me is simply looked like just another one of many, many piquet accidents.
Remember that Kimi, and Sutil crashed too. all 3 incidents looked like racing accidents and out of those 3 piquet's accident surprised me the least.

ioan
30th August 2009, 23:40
If he didn't do it he would have been shown the door. How could he have been in control of is destiny? What was there to prove that they asked him to crash if he didn't even do it?!

truefan72
30th August 2009, 23:48
After Alonso's pit stop obviously, what was so hard to plan about it?
All they needed was to tell Piquet to bin it at corner x after they tell him to push (something they do often).

LOL how true.

Renault tells Piquet to push harder and he promptly complies by crashing. That is more likely story to me as I am sure that it wouldn't be the first time that happened. :rolleyes:

truefan72
30th August 2009, 23:51
If he didn't do it he would have been shown the door. How could he have been in control of is destiny? What was there to prove that they asked him to crash if he didn't even do it?!

the same evidence that showed he was ordered to crash, the fact that he did or did not do it is irrelevant to the evidence ordering him to do it. And if he didn't and had further instructions or dubious communications, then hes treasure chest of evidence would only have grown to his advantage.

All on all, I think this is highly implausible anyway and maybe they are investigating something else.

But TBH I think they should just leave 2008 alone and move forward.

ioan
31st August 2009, 00:00
The way he binned it was very strange and it was questioned back then.
Also he had a spin earlier (during the formation lap)that looked like a copy of the real one, just that he controlled perfectly to the extent that he didn't even lose his place on the grid.

jas123f1
31st August 2009, 00:04
So if a crime is committed today and nobody knows about this crime till next years july, should it not be investigated?

Definite it should be investigated and especially now when Renault kicked Piquet. Because I don’t think every one tell the truth in that case. And I hope and believe that it’s not Alonso who is the liar.

FIA should investigate this as soon and as quickly as it is possible..

ioan
31st August 2009, 00:16
FIA should investigate this as soon and as quickly as it is possible..

The FIA has been investigating this ever since it happened, now it's just the moment when they found something good enough so they leaked a bit of info to the press.

truefan72
31st August 2009, 00:24
everything with NPJr looks sketchy. From his driving to his attitude,to his countless incidents. But I doubt that he or the team decided to deliberately crash his car to give Alonso an advantage in a race where anything could have happened.

airshifter
31st August 2009, 01:03
I'm not sure Piquet had enough car control to "crash on demand" if ordered by the team! :laugh:

ShiftingGears
31st August 2009, 01:39
I hear the FIA will look into Schumacher's Adelaide '94 move next ;)

Saint Devote
31st August 2009, 02:10
Might the "fresh evidence" be that Piquet has made allegations?

The FIA monitor radio transmissions and if there was anything untoward they would acted.

Further, to imagine that Flavio would ask a driver to crash is insane and the driver involved acting on such a request would be no different. Only the conspiracy hypothesists will run with this one - and to imagine that an "in case before the race scheme" was planned is really Machiavellian thinking and out there with the aluminum foil brigade.

The FIA has nothing better to do than act like bitches in my view and the same will apply to Piquet if he is involved in this "allegation".

grantb4
31st August 2009, 06:11
I hear the FIA will look into Schumacher's Adelaide '94 move next ;)

About time.

truefan72
31st August 2009, 06:22
I hear the FIA will look into Schumacher's Adelaide '94 move next ;)


lol

Mk2_Escort_RS
31st August 2009, 07:17
The way he binned it was very strange and it was questioned back then.
Also he had a spin earlier (during the formation lap)that looked like a copy of the real one, just that he controlled perfectly to the extent that he didn't even lose his place on the grid.

It could be that the plans were for Piquet to spin out and stall the car in the middle of the track and he crashed it instead... :p :

Tazio
31st August 2009, 07:31
Just because it is so utterly untrue that Sicilians are mostly mobsters
doesn't mean Flavio's not really a cold blooded Luigi from Palermo :eek: :p :
If Flavio goes down NP will soon be swimming with the fishes :uhoh:
So don't be surprised if he has a brake failure on a remote cliff road,
or a sudden explosion and horrible fiery death
in his personal ride soon :laugh: :burnout:

ioan
31st August 2009, 08:09
The FIA monitor radio transmissions and if there was anything untoward they would acted.

You really think they are so good?!

Koz
31st August 2009, 08:16
It's probably some NP fans that are pissy about him being dropped.

No one would be stupid enough to risk their life for someone else...

Maybe if the championship was at stake on the last race of the year I'd could possibly consider the possibility of this constipated conspiracy. But I think not.


Trust me, I would be happy to have Hamilton gain some extra points in the end, and imagine if massa had won the WDC, and then this comes out, so 8 months later they would overturn the championship and award it to hamilton.

Ever heard of Markku Alen?

ioan
31st August 2009, 09:16
It's probably some NP fans that are pissy about him being dropped.

Good joke! I didn't know that the FIA were NP Jr fans!

You aren't an Alonso fan by chance, aren't you?! :D

UltimateDanGTR
31st August 2009, 11:01
Just because it is so utterly untrue that Sicilians are mostly mobsters
doesn't mean Flavio's not really a cold blooded Luigi from Palermo
If Flavio goes down NP will soon be swimming with the fishes :uhoh:
So don't be surprised if he has a brake failure on a remote cliff road,
or a sudden explosion and horrible fiery death
in his personal ride soon :laugh: :burnout:

ah what a lovely thought :eek:

something tells me this is gonna get messy, but I just hope its not true, if it is, Flavio should be banned from F1 for life. Not even he could do something as cynical as that surely?, something so morally wrong. if they do get punished, that'll be the end of Renault in F1 for sure.

like someone said on this forum recently: why would you? how would you?

ioan
31st August 2009, 11:46
It will be interesting to learn how this message to crash was delivered to Nelson during the race as they could not have predicted the events before hand.

There were no events to predict because they were creating the event.

Saint Devote
31st August 2009, 12:11
It will be interesting to learn how this message to crash was delivered to Nelson during the race as they could not have predicted the events before hand. It would be a huge gamble to rely on the radio knowing it is being monitored, as this would have potential to be an enormous scandal. I've narrowed it down to a few other reasonable methods:

1. Sign language from the lollipop man or Pat Symonds.
2. A note passed to Nelson during a pit stop, or text written on the rag that wiped his visor.
3. A paper aeroplane thrown from the pit wall and gathered by Nelson as he passed the start finish line.
4. Telepathy between Flav and Nelson fine tuned in the boardroom for instances like this.

All plausable methods but my question would be how it is proved by the FIA ... Can't wait :)

Excellent LOL!

ioan
31st August 2009, 12:21
Not entirely as they were unaware before the race exactly when Rosberg, Hamilton, Glock etc were making their first stops. Will be interesting none the less.

They made sure Alonso was very very light and thus the first to pit so they eliminated most of the unknowns with that.

aryan
31st August 2009, 12:27
It's probably some NP fans that are pissy

WHAT????!!!! All three of them? :confused: ;)

christophulus
31st August 2009, 12:27
Easy enough for Renault to decide a code before the race - even just saying Alonso has pitted could be enough. Or tell Piquet beforehand to crash on lap whatever. As far as I can tell this can't be proved!

Besides, Piquet saying "he told me to crash" isn't going to hold much water. He could just say no after all.

555-04Q2
31st August 2009, 12:35
Lets see...

Flavour fires a useless NP Jnr. NP Jnr then says he was ordered to crash to during a race in 2008 to assist Alonso win the GP. Hmmmm.....sour grapes come to mind.

I cant believe anyone would read anthing into the accusation.

emporer_k
31st August 2009, 13:34
How many people would need to be in on this though?

Piquet obviously
Flavio
Whoever sent him an apparently innocent radio message that was his que to find the wall ?
Alonso perhaps ?


In any case its not going to be many people involved and I doubt renault are stupid enough to leave any sort of paper trail.

rusha84
31st August 2009, 16:03
How are they ever supposed to prove that such incident occurred? :rolleyes: That was almost a year ago. F1 Singapore (http://f1racingsingapore.blogspot.com/) is about to start the end of September and then they're suddenly making a big deal of this.

And Piquet is not exactly a very reliable accuser. One could easily think that this is just but a case of sour graping.

Tazio
31st August 2009, 16:27
How are they ever supposed to prove that such incident occurred? :rolleyes: That was almost a year ago. F1 Singapore (http://f1racingsingapore.blogspot.com/) is about to start the end of September and then they're suddenly making a big deal of this.

And Piquet is not exactly a very reliable accuser. One could easily think that this is just but a case of sour graping.

:burnout:

MrJan
31st August 2009, 16:40
I cant believe anyone would read anthing into the accusation.

True, it's difficult to believe that there would be any conspiracy or cheating in F1, especially involving such an upstanding pillar of society as Flavio Briatore...........oh wait ;) :p :

It does seem like sour grapes to me but it also seems very plausible that something like this could be set up. In fact as Nelsinho had been crashing all season perhaps they tried to do it before but just didn't manage to pull it off :D

555-04Q2
31st August 2009, 17:00
True, it's difficult to believe that there would be any conspiracy or cheating in F1, especially involving such an upstanding pillar of society as Flavio Briatore...........oh wait ;) :p :

It does seem like sour grapes to me but it also seems very plausible that something like this could be set up. In fact as Nelsinho had been crashing all season perhaps they tried to do it before but just didn't manage to pull it off :D


Conspiracy in F1, NEVER :laugh:

I still think it is sour grapes though. NP Jnr has been shouting his mouth off since he was fired. All NP Jnr has done is proven that he is not only a poor driver, but a bloody annoying one too!

ioan
31st August 2009, 18:11
Conspiracy in F1, NEVER :laugh:

I still think it is sour grapes though. NP Jnr has been shouting his mouth off since he was fired. All NP Jnr has done is proven that he is not only a poor driver, but a bloody annoying one too!

It has nothing to do with NP Jr and sour grapes. Apparently the incident has been investigated by an independent company at the request of the FIA because Ferrari complained about it.

HenryM
31st August 2009, 18:30
It's hard to believe, but all the incidents looked so strange at the time and now, and it was a very important moment to Briatore, that victory probably helped him to keep renault at F1, Alonso at renault...
But I don't see a benefit to Piquet for leaking this info, or he could have some "imunity" from helping the investigation?!

anyway, if this is really true it will be very sad...
but for now I have more reasons to believe that is not true.

ioan
31st August 2009, 19:07
Perhaps it was Ferrari's way of detracting the attention away from themselves and that hilarious pitstop.

Sure that's why everything has been made public after almost one year. Great thinking there.

MrJan
31st August 2009, 19:59
could have some "imunity" from helping the investigation?!

I doubt such a thing would exist anyway but stabbing Flav in the back is surely a dangerous game to be playing in F1. Briatore has a lot of power in the sport and I'd have thought that crossing him pretty much means ruling yourself out of even a sniff of an F1 seat. Of course it's apparently not NP Jnr anyway and if Ioan is right then he'll have nothing to fear.

ioan
31st August 2009, 20:07
But I don't see a benefit to Piquet for leaking this info, or he could have some "imunity" from helping the investigation?!


I doubt such a thing would exist ...

Don't doubt it, Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton were granted imunity by the FIA during Spygate.

HenryM
1st September 2009, 03:00
hmmm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6816343.ece
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1210287/Race-fix-claim-harmful-Formula-One-says-Bernie-Ecclestone.html

CNR
1st September 2009, 08:38
where does this leave alonso if this is true given that he was the one that dobbed in mclaren over spygate emails ?

leopard
1st September 2009, 08:50
Why would disclose publicly the case too late? Indictment against a case should be raised only within limitation period. Every incident may advantage or disadvantage different drivers is investigated appropriately by race stewards.

I doubt that worries of lay-off enforcement on Renault will happen. Forgive and forget it...

leopard
1st September 2009, 08:58
where does this leave alonso if this is true given that he was the one that dobbed in mclaren over spygate emails ?
Alonso was only trying to give the best effort for team at that time he was driving at. This has nothing to do with spygate. :)

Big Ben
1st September 2009, 09:06
Good for them. So maybe he wasn't that worthless after all.

Giuseppe F1
1st September 2009, 10:38
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78232


Renault warned of serious consequences
By Jonathan Noble
Tuesday, September 1st 2009, 07:35 GMT


Nelson Piquet, Renault, 2008Formula 1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone has warned that there could be 'serious' consequences for both Nelson Piquet and Renault if an investigation into race-fixing at last year's Singapore Grand Prix uncovers anything suspicious.

The FIA is currently looking into claims, which emerged during last weekend's race weekend in Belgium, that Piquet may have been asked to crash deliberately in Singapore last year to help team-mate Fernando Alonso win.

The nature of the claims, or who has provided them, has not been revealed, and the FIA has only confirmed that it is looking into 'events' at a previous world championship race.

However, Ecclestone has confirmed that the incident being looked at is Singapore - and says he and the governing body is taking the matter seriously.

"The FIA has launched a thorough investigation into the allegations about Nelson," Ecclestone said. "I do not know if they are true or not.

"But if they are true then I would have thought Nelson was in just as much trouble. If I tell you to go and rob a bank and you get caught you can't say, 'Well Bernie told me to.'

"It all seems very strange to me and I do not know the truth."

Should the FIA find any evidence of foul play then it would most likely call a meeting of its World Motor Sport Council to discuss the matter. If the WMSC finds Renault guilty, then punishments range from a reprimand through to fines, race bans and even exclusion from the world championship.

On the back of the recent 'Bloodgate' controversy that has dogged rugby, Ecclestone said that FIA would come down hard on any guilty party.

"If the investigation finds out that that is what happened then I think there is going to be a lot of trouble," he said. "You hear of these things happening with jockeys and in football and it has led to all sorts of trouble, hasn't it?

"If it is true then it is a very serious situation. But it could just be a rumour and Nelson is just annoyed that he has been fired.

"But it is not good for the sport. People seem to be spending money betting on F1l, which is good, but they will not want to do that if they think something is wrong with the result."

Ecclestone also fears that Renault could pull out of F1 on the back of the investigation - joining Honda and BMW in exiting the sport in the space of less than 12 months.

He told The Times: "This is not the sort of thing we need at the moment. I think it will p*** off Renault for a start. Them leaving the sport is a danger, obviously. I mean, I hope that it isn't like that, but it's the sort of thing that might happen."

The departure of Renault from F1 would not only hit the Enstone-based team, but would also hurt Williams, which is close to signing a customer-engine deal with the French car manufacturer.

Renault has so far not commented on the situation.

ioan
1st September 2009, 11:18
hmmm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6816343.ece
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1210287/Race-fix-claim-harmful-Formula-One-says-Bernie-Ecclestone.html

This is what I feared, when this guy get's his nose in it we can't forget about knowing the truth and justice because just a wet dream.

ioan
1st September 2009, 11:20
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78232


Renault warned of serious consequences
By Jonathan Noble
Tuesday, September 1st 2009, 07:35 GMT


Nelson Piquet, Renault, 2008Formula 1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone has warned that there could be 'serious' consequences for both Nelson Piquet and Renault if an investigation into race-fixing at last year's Singapore Grand Prix uncovers anything suspicious.

The FIA is currently looking into claims, which emerged during last weekend's race weekend in Belgium, that Piquet may have been asked to crash deliberately in Singapore last year to help team-mate Fernando Alonso win.

The nature of the claims, or who has provided them, has not been revealed, and the FIA has only confirmed that it is looking into 'events' at a previous world championship race.

However, Ecclestone has confirmed that the incident being looked at is Singapore - and says he and the governing body is taking the matter seriously.

"The FIA has launched a thorough investigation into the allegations about Nelson," Ecclestone said. "I do not know if they are true or not.

"But if they are true then I would have thought Nelson was in just as much trouble. If I tell you to go and rob a bank and you get caught you can't say, 'Well Bernie told me to.'

"It all seems very strange to me and I do not know the truth."

Should the FIA find any evidence of foul play then it would most likely call a meeting of its World Motor Sport Council to discuss the matter. If the WMSC finds Renault guilty, then punishments range from a reprimand through to fines, race bans and even exclusion from the world championship.

On the back of the recent 'Bloodgate' controversy that has dogged rugby, Ecclestone said that FIA would come down hard on any guilty party.

"If the investigation finds out that that is what happened then I think there is going to be a lot of trouble," he said. "You hear of these things happening with jockeys and in football and it has led to all sorts of trouble, hasn't it?

"If it is true then it is a very serious situation. But it could just be a rumour and Nelson is just annoyed that he has been fired.

"But it is not good for the sport. People seem to be spending money betting on F1l, which is good, but they will not want to do that if they think something is wrong with the result."

Ecclestone also fears that Renault could pull out of F1 on the back of the investigation - joining Honda and BMW in exiting the sport in the space of less than 12 months.

He told The Times: "This is not the sort of thing we need at the moment. I think it will p*** off Renault for a start. Them leaving the sport is a danger, obviously. I mean, I hope that it isn't like that, but it's the sort of thing that might happen."

The departure of Renault from F1 would not only hit the Enstone-based team, but would also hurt Williams, which is close to signing a customer-engine deal with the French car manufacturer.

Renault has so far not commented on the situation.

That's just Bernie trying to pressure Piquet not to tell the truth.Pathetic mophead! :down:
F1 will only reborn when this guy will be 6 feet under.

555-04Q2
1st September 2009, 12:11
Wishing death on someone is pretty low IMO.. I think F1 will be a better sport once he has retired but to make a statement like this is appalling.. :down:

I think ioan is refering to the fact that Bernie will probably never "retire" from F1 in the true sense of the word, rather that old age (read: death) will eventually "retire" Bernie.

I dont think ioan wishes any direct harm to Bernie.

ioan
1st September 2009, 12:17
Wishing death on someone is pretty low IMO.. I think F1 will be a better sport once he has retired but to make a statement like this is appalling.. :down:

Learn some English FGS. I don't wish any one to die I just stated that F1 will not reborn before he dies, after all we all die one day.

ioan
1st September 2009, 12:17
I think ioan is refering to the fact that Bernie will probably never "retire" from F1 in the true sense of the word, rather that old age (read: death) will eventually "retire" Bernie.

I dont think ioan wishes any direct harm to Bernie.

Exactly! :up:

PS: Good to have you around 555! :)

1st September 2009, 15:31
Well, if these accusations do turn out to be true, I'll happily admit I was wrong when I state that I've never heard such an undisputed pile of excrement.

Should these allegations prove to be false, I hope the accuser has a fecking good legal team, because a certain French manufacturer will wipe their family out finacially for millenia.

paddocknews
1st September 2009, 16:49
BREAKING NEWS: FIA to investigate races in which Piquet Jnr "suspiciously did NOT crash"

donKey jote
1st September 2009, 19:24
:laugh: :laugh:
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

ClarkFan
1st September 2009, 19:39
BREAKING NEWS: FIA to investigate races in which Piquet Jnr "suspiciously did NOT crash"

I know just the man for the case!


http://www.radiotimes.com/content/features/galleries/moustache-gallery/12/mainImage.jpg

:p

ClarkFan

aryan
2nd September 2009, 04:33
BREAKING NEWS: FIA to investigate races in which Piquet Jnr "suspiciously did NOT crash"

All 3 of them?

Knock-on
2nd September 2009, 12:38
All 3 of them?

PML :laugh:

Knock-on
2nd September 2009, 13:14
Seriously though, IF there is any evidence that Piquet was ordered to crash, the punishment will be monumental.

This is not a case of some plans finding their way to a competitor or trying to cover up a mistake but blatent race rigging and endangering peoples lives.

I cannot see Piquet ever getting another Super Licence or Flav continuing in the sport. I just hope that Alonso knew nothing about this, I really do.

Ranger
2nd September 2009, 14:04
That stupid SC rule was bound to be manipulated.

Anyone with brains should have seen the possibility of this alleged situation as soon as the rule was announced.

Knock-on
2nd September 2009, 14:23
That stupid SC rule was bound to be manipulated.

Anyone with brains should have seen the possibility of this alleged situation as soon as the rule was announced.

Agree but manipulating rules and sending in a driver to deliberatly crash are 2 very different things.

I just can't believe Flav would be so stupid. I may not like the bloke but he's no fool. Besides, Drivers are not the best people to share a secret with.

ioan
2nd September 2009, 14:32
I just can't believe Flav would be so stupid.

I wouldn't say that the move was stupid, au contraire.


Besides, Drivers are not the best people to share a secret with.

It would have been pretty hard to ask a driver to crash without sharing the secret with him! ;)

jas123f1
2nd September 2009, 17:46
That's just Bernie trying to pressure Piquet not to tell the truth.Pathetic mophead! :down:
F1 will only reborn when this guy will be 6 feet under.

Why are you writing such unnecessary b*** s***? First - Bernie has made a lot for F1 - and to the second we don't know today what's coming after him..

ClarkFan
2nd September 2009, 19:14
Clearly, the signal was based on a negative confirmation. At every previous race, the team had told Piquet, "Don't crash the car." At Singapore, they didn't tell him anything. That set the whole plot in motion....

;)

ClarkFan

Tazio
2nd September 2009, 20:54
Seriously though, IF I just hope that Alonso knew nothing about this, I really do.No you don't
How disingenuous!
Along with the rest of the Anglo/Mafia you would love to see Fred take the fall! :dozey: ;)


*

Big Ben
2nd September 2009, 22:49
a driver who is then sacked by text message less than 12 months later


I thought that one was bourdais

Dave B
3rd September 2009, 09:40
I watched the race again yesterday, and it's notable that both Red Bulls - powered as they are by Renault engines - dived into the pits the second Piquet crashed. Had they not developed unrelated problems later in the race they could have both been on for a good result.

Just saying...

CNR
3rd September 2009, 12:22
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
?????????????????????????????????????????

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16821&Itemid=219

Felipe Massa suspected Nelson Piquet crashed deliberately at the Singapore Formula One Grand Prix last year and confronted Flavio Briatore about the

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
?????????????????????????????????????????

ioan
3rd September 2009, 12:51
What's the problem :?:

SGWilko
3rd September 2009, 13:44
What's the problem :?:

His ? key got stuck perhaps. :laugh:

Tazio
3rd September 2009, 15:05
I could see FM lending moral support. But ratin' out a Don can get you into a
world of hurt! :uhoh:


http://www.airmagination.com/al_capone_shirt_2.jpg

:eek: :eek: :eek:

CNR
3rd September 2009, 22:43
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
?????????????????????????????????????????

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16821&Itemid=219


?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
?????????????????????????????????????????

so many question
Felipe Massa suspected Nelson Piquet crashed deliberately
what other drivers did
is this the only reason Nelson Piquet got the drive this year
why has it taken so long to come out
what team will pick Nelson Piquet if this is true
can they take the points off alonso
would lasts years championship result been the same
who reported them in to the fia and why
what will happen if it did happen
do they investigate all crashes that a teammate has gone on to win

CNR
3rd September 2009, 23:21
say a 3 race ban
JAPANESE GRAND PRIX
Felipe Massa (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/18.html) 4 points
Lewis Hamilton (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/828.html) 0 points
CHINESE GRAND PRIX
Lewis Hamilton (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/828.html) 10 points
Felipe Massa (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/18.html) 8 points
PREMIO DO BRASIL 2008
Felipe Massa (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/18.html) 10 points
Lewis Hamilton (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/828.html) 5 points

massa 24 points
lewis 15 points
Felipe Massa (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2008/18.html) would have won by 1 point

Somebody
4th September 2009, 02:13
Thing is though, you can't say that if the Renaults had been banned, everything else would have gone exactly the same way. In Brazil, in particular, Hamilton (knowing he only needed fifth) went VERY conservative on the strategy, and it nearly cost him dear. If he'd gone in tied with Massa, or even behind him, you can bet he'd have been more aggressive from the start of the weekend. And who can say what would have happened if he'd done that - anything from a glorious win to an ignominious crash could have resulted.

christophulus
4th September 2009, 11:32
The Renault Formula One team's problems were compounded yesterday when it emerged that the FIA could investigate more than just the allegations that Nelson Piquet Jnr was instructed to crash his car in the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix to help team-mate Fernando Alonso to win.

A source within the FIA said: "There were interviews going on all weekend at Spa-Francorchamps, and other issues above and beyond Singapore are also to be looked at." Technical chief Pat Symonds and Alonso were among senior Renault figures interviewed more than once by FIA representatives in Belgium.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/renault-crisis-deepens-after-fia-widens-investigation-1780191.html

Now that sounds fairly serious. What else have Renault been up to exactly? Apparently it's not just the crash that's being investigated:


Nelson Piquet Jr is believed to have given a statement concerning his version of events to the FIA and its legal representatives some time ago.

Based on that information the three Belgian GP stewards – Sweden’s Lars Osterlind, Greece’s Vassilis Despotopoulos and local representative Yves Bacquelaine – were subsequently called upon to interview key members of the Renault team at Spa last Thursday, accompanied by the FIA’s professional legal support.

The high level of secrecy surrounding the matter apparently meant that the Renault staff concerned, including engineering boss Pat Symonds and Fernando Alonso, had little or no warning about what to expect.

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-mosley-call-on-renault-could-come-friday/

That seems to suggest this whole issue has been brewing for a while. WMSC meeting could be 21st September.

ioan
4th September 2009, 11:53
Well well, looks like Flav might be in serious trouble again.

I am evil Homer
4th September 2009, 12:02
TBH they seemed to get away with all those discs of Mac data without any real problems.....maybe Flav's teflon days are coming to an end!!

SGWilko
4th September 2009, 12:20
You would have to say that something is most definately afoot here. Poor Alonso, he is going to be branded a driver that courts contoversy.

Let us hope that he is not involved in any way shape or form...

SGWilko
4th September 2009, 12:42
I hope Alonso is not involved in any of this as his reputation would be in tatters. Renault on the other hand got away scot free when they were caught with Mclaren data and now maybe they have been caught cheating again. I wonder if this is worth more than a $50m fine?

Lets get ONE thing straight here when talking fines and precedents. The ONLY reason McLaren were fined £60m or whatever it actually was, is because Max knew they could afford it.

We also know that Max is impartial, and hates Bondage.

He don't like Flav the Chav, nether!!! :laugh:

Knock-on
4th September 2009, 16:19
I hope Alonso is not involved in any of this as his reputation would be in tatters. Renault on the other hand got away scot free when they were caught with Mclaren data and now maybe they have been caught cheating again. I wonder if this is worth more than a $50m fine?

When I saw that this was being opened out past the Crashgate issue, McLaren data was the first thing that jumped into my mind.

Let's not forget that had the FIA done any more than a cursory "were you being naughty?" investigation then Renault would have been deeper in the than McLaren. There was considerable evidence that data was incorporated into the car and had they asked to see the Backup tapes rather than live systems, then Renault would have been fooked.

Perhaps Flav should have remembered Max turning a blind eye before doing an et tu Brutus.

Making the mistake that Max is down and out is not a clever move!!

bartlock
4th September 2009, 16:37
Briatore is a Mad man :p , but i don't think that he asked Piquet to crash!

I hope too that Fernando is out of this crash gate.

christophulus
4th September 2009, 19:02
"Representatives of ING Renault F1 have been requested to appear before an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Monday, 21 September 2009," read a statement on the FIA website.

"The team representatives have been called to answer charges, including a breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, that the team conspired with its driver, Nelson Piquet Jr, to cause a deliberate crash at the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix with the aim of causing the deployment of the safety car to the advantage of its other driver, Fernando Alonso."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8239001.stm

If found guilty.. well the punishment will be massive. The FIA must've found some evidence of wrongdoing if it's got this far.

jimakos
4th September 2009, 19:07
Briatore is a Mad man :p , but i don't think that he asked Piquet to crash!

I hope too that Fernando is out of this crash gate.

Can't agree more with your opinion!!
I like your thoughts about Flavio... :p

slinkster
4th September 2009, 19:38
I don't think you'd have to ask Piquet to crash bless him.

Donney
4th September 2009, 19:43
They just used his natural talents.... :p

truefan72
4th September 2009, 19:55
this news today is just nonsense IMO a waste of peoples time and money.

It is nothing more than Mosley's parting shot at Fota and to try and get one more scalp on his way out.It is also a stupid move that could see renault leave the sport to everyone but MM's detriment. It will also surely signal the end of NPjr career in F1 as his actions in this matter true or not true will be seen as a parting shot that caused a terrible consequences and black eye on the sport yet again.

and Finally, shame on the F1A who seem to not understand how stupid this whole thing is and what a pr disaster it is going to be. To me this should be straw that broke the camels back for fota and a let the breakaway series come back into effect, while the lawyers can haggle with the FOM about breach of contract. It is funny how this investigation has only materialized once the new concorde agreement was signed, in a way trying to box in FOTA.

I hope that the FOTA teams leave anyway, form their own series and let this stupid FIA feed on their own dead carcass. They have more than a strong argument for their case, and it will be years until this case settles, in the meanwhile FIa and FOM will cease to exist.

4th September 2009, 20:18
When I saw that this was being opened out past the Crashgate issue, McLaren data was the first thing that jumped into my mind.

Let's not forget that had the FIA done any more than a cursory "were you being naughty?" investigation then Renault would have been deeper in the than McLaren. There was considerable evidence that data was incorporated into the car and had they asked to see the Backup tapes rather than live systems, then Renault would have been fooked.

Perhaps Flav should have remembered Max turning a blind eye before doing an et tu Brutus.

Making the mistake that Max is down and out is not a clever move!!

Have you got any genuine evidence to those claims?

4th September 2009, 20:21
If found guilty.. well the punishment will be massive. The FIA must've found some evidence of wrongdoing if it's got this far.

Just because you are called to answer a case against you doesn't mean there is a case against you.

christophulus
4th September 2009, 21:20
Just because you are called to answer a case against you doesn't mean there is a case against you.

The FIA needs enough evidence to prove Renault are guilty of something. Renault's representatives have every right to stay silent all the way through and aren't going to incriminate themselves.



The way this works is a bit like the Crown Prosecution service in the UK, which liaises with the police service to assess whether there is enough evidence to prosecute. The FIA has had an enquiry force looking into the Renault case for some time, I understand. This is not something which has been launched in the last few weeks.

To proceed in this way the FIA must feel that there is sufficient evidence to prosecute. To get a conviction, the evidence must add up to prove that the competitor has committed, “Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally.” This is quite a wide definition, but the burden of proof is on the FIA’s side, not on Renault to prove that it is innocent.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/renault-to-face-disrepute-charge-this-month/

truefan72
4th September 2009, 22:14
the whole affair is just ridiculous

BDunnell
4th September 2009, 22:49
Have you got any genuine evidence to those claims?

And have you got any evidence to disprove them?

4th September 2009, 23:43
And have you got any evidence to disprove them?

The burden of proof is with the accuser.

Since when has having no real evidence, just a load of assumptions based on his own bias , be treated as anything other than excrement?

4th September 2009, 23:50
The burden of proof is with the accuser.

Since when has having no real evidence, just a load of assumptions based on his own bias , be treated as anything other than excrement?

Come to think of it, has anyone ever seen Nelson Piquet Junior and Knock-on in the same room together?

Somebody
4th September 2009, 23:51
This is apparently based on information gathered by Quest (http://www.quest.co.uk/) at the FiA's request - and Quest have a rep that goes outside motorsport (they were behind prior investigations into football corruption (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_allegations_of_corruption_in_English_football #Stevens_report) and the death of Princess Di (http://www.theroyalist.net/content/view/1534/2/), for instance). I doubt that "because Piquet Jr said so" is the whole entire reason behind it getting to this stage, somehow...

Saint Devote
5th September 2009, 01:03
There can be no good outcome of this.

Does the FIA want to drag the good name of a major European manufacturer that has been faithful to f1 since 1977 through the mud?

And if this were true, what good does it do? It would cause the immediate withdrawal of Renault from f1 and the impact would be significant.

Renault ought to use its considerable political muscle to intervene - reach out to the French government and have them pressurize the FIA to drop this.

I can find no positive outcome for this - it is a loss all the way for f1.

Just let it be and move on.

Tumbo
5th September 2009, 01:56
so if renault were acting outside the rules then just sweep it under the rug to keep them in the sport? Sorry but a ridiculous argument - the question here is what evidence and whether there are grounds for a penalty, like McLaren you do the crime you pay the fine - to let renault off when there is evidence they have done wrong basically says cheat and u'll get away with it provided the economic climate is bad

Saint Devote
5th September 2009, 02:06
so if renault were acting outside the rules then just sweep it under the rug to keep them in the sport? Sorry but a ridiculous argument - the question here is what evidence and whether there are grounds for a penalty, like McLaren you do the crime you pay the fine - to let renault off when there is evidence they have done wrong basically says cheat and u'll get away with it provided the economic climate is bad

Then what do you suggest?

The Mclaren issue you think was a good outcome? When teams have illegally poached others ideas for years? It was a political witchhuny against Mclaren and to fine a team $100 million was appalling - but you support that and an FIA that acts capricously?

Do you want to see f1 dragged down - even a big investigation would do that - and the real possible withdrawal of Renault by the firm and as they are unable to find a replacement for ING in 2010 because of the scandal?

And a scandal that occurred a year ago?

Nobody died and it is a ludicrous charge unless one is a conspiracy theorist.

Tumbo
5th September 2009, 02:17
What I think is that there should be a reasonable investigation when there is reasonable grounds. The most important thing is that there is no over-reaction, no witchhunt and most importantly an adequate penalty.

Political witchhunt aside the biggest problem w/ the McLaren case (which I didn't support) was the penalty imposed, especially considering that Renault guilty of the same offence got away scot-free a few mths later

HenryM
5th September 2009, 02:21
I think, if this is true of course, that they will find a way to protect Renault name, Renault is a important team and engine supplier, they will probably try to focus more in Briatore and the other members involved in this...

but to no investigate just because of the importance of Renault is stupid, the sport need credibility and who break the rules like this must be punished... if confirmed this is the biggest cheat in F1 history!? so...

Saint Devote
5th September 2009, 02:25
What I think is that there should be a reasonable investigation when there is reasonable grounds. The most important thing is that there is no over-reaction, no witchhunt and most importantly an adequate penalty.

Political witchhunt aside the biggest problem w/ the McLaren case (which I didn't support) was the penalty imposed, especially considering that Renault guilty of the same offence got away scot-free a few mths later

Then you would agree that there is a political agenda here from within the FIA - maybe Maxi boy - instead, of what ought to be a very quiet and carefully handled behind the scenes inquiry.

But at the same time I cannot find any good outcome and that is why there is now such a loud public furore.

I love f1 and I have a fond regard for Renault and I would not like to see Flavio gone fromthe sport. So I say just lets leave it - there has been enough upset this year. :dozey:

ioan
5th September 2009, 02:41
Does the FIA want to drag the good name of a major European manufacturer that has been faithful to f1 since 1977 through the mud?

Hopefully so!
They did drag the name of major European manufacturer through the mud 2 years ago and they were right to do it given the circumstances. And may I add that the end of the world didn't come back than and it will not come now either! :\

ioan
5th September 2009, 02:42
What I think is that there should be a reasonable investigation when there is reasonable grounds. The most important thing is that there is no over-reaction, no witchhunt and most importantly an adequate penalty.

:up:

ioan
5th September 2009, 02:45
Then you would agree that there is a political agenda here from within the FIA - maybe Maxi boy - instead, of what ought to be a very quiet and carefully handled behind the scenes inquiry.

But at the same time I cannot find any good outcome and that is why there is now such a loud public furore.

I love f1 and I have a fond regard for Renault and I would not like to see Flavio gone fromthe sport. So I say just lets leave it - there has been enough upset this year. :dozey:

You are accusing someone of having a hidden political agenda but in the same time pleading for cheaters to be let free based on a political reason?!
That's 'interesting'. :\

Tumbo
5th September 2009, 05:35
SD you brought up the notion of a 'political witchhunt' I was merely putting the whole topic aside - quite frankly my personal views on the matter are irrelevant to this discussion. Personally I would rather there was no case to be had, why - because it would show a manufacturer which has been 'true' to F1 since 1977 had been such.............if it turns out that they have cheated, and that Flavio was involved thus causing them to leave the sport then is that really so bad?

If Ferrari were in this position i'd be arguing for a full investigation and a just decision based on the FACTS, if it were McLaren the same and so on down the list of those involved in this sport. If a team cheats then they should be brought to justice. If they manipulate the rules in such a way to achieve their outcome without breaking any rules then we target the rulemakers - think Brawn at the start of the yr - why should ANY manufacturer be immune to investigation if there are reasonable grounds.................so far we have an investigation nothing more......if a ridiculous penalty is handed down then we should rightly complain and if Renault leave we are poorer for it, but if they are guilty then to let them off to keep them in the sport is ludicrous.

Sonic
5th September 2009, 10:47
I think it is summed up nicely by Tumbo.

No one is above the law. Full stop.

I am evil Homer
5th September 2009, 11:51
Agree Tumbo...although if it were Ferrari or McLaren the two factions would be in all out war on this forum!!

I've read all about this but i still struggle to see how they will prove Renault did this aside from Piquet's testimony. And that's just his word. If an engineer also said the same under oath then things could get very, very interesting.

Sonic
5th September 2009, 12:53
Evil Homer makes a valid point. The only person who can really prove this is PQ, and there is just no way he would be stupid enough to get up and say "yes I crashed on purpose" as it would have a huge impact on his own career tarnishing him as a cheat at the very least.

ioan
5th September 2009, 13:56
Evil Homer makes a valid point. The only person who can really prove this is PQ, and there is just no way he would be stupid enough to get up and say "yes I crashed on purpose" as it would have a huge impact on his own career tarnishing him as a cheat at the very least.

Piquet would be a cheat because he played the team game?!

The cheats in this case are first and foremost Renault for asking him to do this, I fail to see why you are piling it all on Piquet.

5th September 2009, 14:14
Piquet would be a cheat because he played the team game?!

The cheats in this case are first and foremost Renault for asking him to do this, I fail to see why you are piling it all on Piquet.

Ioan, nobody has been found guilty yet.

There has been an allegation, and Renault have been called to answer a charge.

That does not mean jack. It certainly does not mean Renault have cheated, therefore nobody should state that they have cheated.

After the WMSC, then we will know. Until then, there is the basic fair principle of innocent until proven.

We don't know what "proof" there is. If any.

ioan
5th September 2009, 14:49
Ioan, nobody has been found guilty yet.

You're right. My bad, I should have used a big IF.

Sonic
5th September 2009, 15:13
Piquet would be a cheat because he played the team game?!

The cheats in this case are first and foremost Renault for asking him to do this, I fail to see why you are piling it all on Piquet.

I don't think I did "pile it all on Piquet". I suggested that if this has any basis in fact PQ jnr is one of the few who would have evidence and that he would be mad to admit that it had happened. Have you been following the "bloodgate" saga in rugby? I could see PQ facing the same kind of witch hunt if it were to be revealed that he played a part in cheating.

My personal option is that this is all going to fade away but its fun to speculate.

jens
5th September 2009, 18:06
To be fair, that crash looked suspicious already in the beginning. However, it would be strange to put your driver's health to risk by ordering him to crash, but on the other hand it's Flavio we are talking about... But I'm not going to guess more until more evidence.

Thank goodness that unfair safety car rule is gone by now.

ioan
5th September 2009, 19:41
To be fair, that crash looked suspicious already in the beginning. However, it would be strange to put your driver's health to risk by ordering him to crash, but on the other hand it's Flavio we are talking about... But I'm not going to guess more until more evidence.

Put his life at risk?
Since when is life at risk in a F1 car crashing at under 100kmh? Especially IF the move is premeditated and well executed?

There are stuntmen out there crashing several times a day because they are told to do so and no one seem to care much about their lives.

UltimateDanGTR
5th September 2009, 20:18
Put his life at risk?
Since when is life at risk in a F1 car crashing at under 100kmh? Especially IF the move is premeditated and well executed?



if you notice, jens said 'health' not 'life'. there is a difference, maybe if you read the post properly you wouldnt need to retaliate like that.

and he makes a point. a crash like that, going backwards into the wall, could *Potentially* (low risk these days but even so....) do injury to PK's spine. Im not saying huge damage, but small injuries can be caused. ;)

ioan
5th September 2009, 20:44
if you notice, jens said 'health' not 'life'. there is a difference, maybe if you read the post properly you wouldnt need to retaliate like that.

and he makes a point. a crash like that, going backwards into the wall, could *Potentially* (low risk these days but even so....) do injury to PK's spine. Im not saying huge damage, but small injuries can be caused. ;)

OK. no one cares for those stuntmen's health, but cry about Piquet being in danger in what is the safest race car on earth.

Of course it might happen that he is injured as well as it might happen that he falls of his bed during sleep and brakes a finger or an arm. ;)

UltimateDanGTR
5th September 2009, 21:20
OK. no one cares for those stuntmen's health, but cry about Piquet being in danger in what is the safest race car on earth.

Of course it might happen that he is injured as well as it might happen that he falls of his bed during sleep and brakes a finger or an arm. ;)

Not so sure about the bold bit, is F1 the safest form of motor racing? thats another issue,

but you have a fair point, there is only a small possibility of injury, which is like I said, although id say you're more likely to be injured in an F1 car crash than a your own bed, unless some statistics can persuade me otherwise! :)

Sonic
5th September 2009, 21:24
i have to say i am stunned by your POV Ioan. were you not the same man who wanted better crash protection after the massa incident?

To now be saying an shunt at 100 is nothing is quite a turn-around. I take it you have never gone backwards into the wall? Trust me; it hurts.

UltimateDanGTR
5th September 2009, 21:28
I take it you have never gone backwards into the wall? Trust me; it hurts.

well F1 cars have much better rear protection than your normal road car, but injury definatly isnt out of the question, which is the point ive made above, but i would rather crash backwards in an F1 car than a road car (if both at same speed)

Sonic
5th September 2009, 21:36
Not talking road car here. Only thing I've ever shunted has been purpose built racing machinery - trust me it still hurts.

Robinho
5th September 2009, 21:52
Put his life at risk?
Since when is life at risk in a F1 car crashing at under 100kmh? Especially IF the move is premeditated and well executed?

There are stuntmen out there crashing several times a day because they are told to do so and no one seem to care much about their lives.


i'm glad i'm not the only one who sees this statement as outlandish, coming from the man who wants covered cockpits amongst other crash protection measures since Massa's accident and that no avenue for safety should be left uninvestigated if it can improve the safety of the drivers, regardless of the comparable risk.

Stunt drivers crash under incredibly controlled and pre-planned circumstances. they don't do what they are told, as normally they are the ones planning teh stunt and they are very much in demand for their skill and bravery and as such command a healthy wage and have a lot of say on how a stunt is done.

IF Piquet did crash on purpose, on a live race track with 19 other drivers attempting to drive the track as quicly as possible there are 19 other things that cannot be controlled, and on a tight, fenced street circuit, the chance of another car coming across a crashed car and becoming involved is pretty high - raising teh possibility of flying debris, cars etc. the car that crashed in front of Henry Surtees was not travelled that fast when it crashed in to the barriers, but circumstances where enough to rip a wheel off and we all know what happened there.

Piquet may have been able to "crash" relatively safely, but easily could have found himself in the line of fire of another car or sent a wheel flying into the path of another driver and we know how dangerous this can be.

IF piquet did go through with this he is a d1ck of the highest order, even if only going through with a team order. he can come out of this only smelling of . IF proved true then he should never drive competitively again, and the team should be chucked out if the guilt can be proved and traced. if traced to Flav then its goodbye. i'm not saying that Piquet should get more blame, but if involved in the plan and he carried it through then he should get every bit as much of the flak as the idiots who dreamed it up.

however, i still maintain that they will never prove anything, although thats not to say i don't belive that it could be true

ioan
5th September 2009, 22:11
i have to say i am stunned by your POV Ioan. were you not the same man who wanted better crash protection after the massa incident?

You are mistaking a premeditated action with an accident.

ioan
5th September 2009, 22:12
i'm glad i'm not the only one who sees this statement as outlandish, coming from the man who wants covered cockpits amongst other crash protection measures since Massa's accident and that no avenue for safety should be left uninvestigated if it can improve the safety of the drivers, regardless of the comparable risk.

You are also mistaking accidents with premeditated actions.

Sonic
5th September 2009, 22:55
Regardless of what you believe we are mistaking, you were calling for Renaults head on a plate after realeasing Fred from his Hungarian pitstop with the possibility of a wheel becoming detatched from the car, yet you are also claiming that backing your car into a wall at 100mph is perfectly safe both for the driver involved, the 19 other cars, and most importantly (if I remember you previous argument correctly) the paying public who could be injured by flying wheels or bodywork.

I repeat - I am stunned.

ioan
5th September 2009, 23:20
Regardless of what you believe we are mistaking, you were calling for Renaults head on a plate after realeasing Fred from his Hungarian pitstop with the possibility of a wheel becoming detatched from the car, yet you are also claiming that backing your car into a wall at 100mph is perfectly safe both for the driver involved, the 19 other cars, and most importantly (if I remember you previous argument correctly) the paying public who could be injured by flying wheels or bodywork.

I repeat - I am stunned.

You are stunned? I'm stunned too, by your lack of reasoning.

First of all he was not doing 100mph.
Secondly IF he was asked to crash the car than he was doing it consciously and was in control of what he was doing.

Trying to compare an accident with something coordinated by the driver himself is something we should discuss in a SF forum, if at all.

truefan72
6th September 2009, 04:52
ioan talking out of both sides of his mouth again.

you were leading the clarion call for F1 safety, no measure should be spared, spectators this, cars that , in ad-nauseum, when massa had his incident and yet you come here and belittle a high impact crash by another driver that totaled his car,brought out the safety and could have injured the driver?

It's clear that there is a parallel universe going on here, one where massa exists, and one for others. LOL

Sonic
6th September 2009, 09:06
Ioan;

Firstly - I would like to see your data that proves what speed the car was traveling at.

Secondly - IF Piquet did crash on purpose and IF he was in complete control he is not a master of time and space and therefore can not control the million other possibilities.

Thirdly - clearly it is pointless having a discussion with you on this matter because as no red cars are involved your powers of logical thought seem to have deserted you.

Peace and love (no autographs) :)

ioan
6th September 2009, 10:34
Ioan;

Firstly - I would like to see your data that proves what speed the car was traveling at.

Secondly - IF Piquet did crash on purpose and IF he was in complete control he is not a master of time and space and therefore can not control the million other possibilities.

Thirdly - clearly it is pointless having a discussion with you on this matter because as no red cars are involved your powers of logical thought seem to have deserted you.

Peace and love (no autographs) :)

Just watch the damn video on you tube if you want to see the speed he had when he hit that wall.

It is exactly as clearly useless having a discussion with any of you as you think you know the ultimate truth and don't even bother checking the facts.

If you think that a F1 driver can't crash a car without putting himself in danger than you are watching the wrong sport.

I won't lose any more time with you. Ignore list is there with a reason. Don't bother to answer as I can't read your posts anymore, from now.

Sonic
6th September 2009, 11:26
No need to get angry dude. I disagree with you and you want to put me on the ignore list? Childish in the extreem. Anywho, as I said;

Peace and love bro....

Robinho
6th September 2009, 13:32
You are also mistaking accidents with premeditated actions.


and you are mistaking a controlled premeditated "crash" with a live race track.

to force a safety car the "accident" needs to be somewhere that is not safe to recover under yellows, and however well controlled the drivers could crash, they cannot necessarily control the trajectory of any debris, or a fluke where a wheel is pulled off and ends up on a live race track. however minimal the risk, the risk is there and if deliberately taken its totally unacceptable.

i accept that even piquet is talented enough to probably not harm himself, but he is not psychic and cannot control the outcome of 19 racing F1 cars coming across the site of an accident on a street course - i am stunned that you think it is an acceptable risk, knowing how small a piece of debris can cause significant damage and injury if hit at speed. see Brazil Alonso and webber a few years ago, see surtees at brands, see Massa at hungary.

Robinho
6th September 2009, 13:33
No need to get angry dude. I disagree with you and you want to put me on the ignore list? Childish in the extreem. Anywho, as I said;

Peace and love bro....

just so Ioan can read this ;)

jens
6th September 2009, 14:16
just so Ioan can read this ;)

Be careful or you would be in the ignore list too! ;)

ioan
6th September 2009, 16:19
just so Ioan can read this ;)

To late. I'm really making use of the ignore list for the first time since ages and I think this will help all of us out of some stupid situations.

truefan72
6th September 2009, 18:04
To late. I'm really making use of the ignore list for the first time since ages and I think this will help all of us out of some stupid situations.

running and hiding from a discussion while lounging in your own echo chamber is why folks find it hard to take you serious. It seems that whenever you get called out, your embarrassment leads you to insult, anger and then hide(..erm ignore list) rather than a sensible discussion of a difference in opinion. If you can't handle a discussion with different views then why bother coming here. You might be better off writing your own F1 blog and then reading it to yourself. Because no one here is interested in reading your opinions if you think this forum is not big enough for you to handle dissenting arguments. Just man up ioan instead of picking fights and adding everyone to the ignore list.

ioan
6th September 2009, 18:10
running and hiding from a discussion while lounging in your own echo chamber is why folks find it hard to take you serious. It seems that whenever you get called out, your embarrassment leads you to insult, anger and then hide(..erm ignore list) rather than a sensible discussion of a difference in opinion. If you can't handle a discussion with different views then why bother coming here. You might be better off writing your own F1 blog and then reading it to yourself. Because no one here is interested in reading your opinions if you think this forum is not big enough for you to handle dissenting arguments. Just man up ioan instead of picking fights and adding everyone to the ignore list.

You know what I don't like?
That instead of discussing the matter at hand you all find it more interesting to judge me as if I was the subject of the thread.
Can't you guys stick at discussing Singapore 2008 instead of this mud play? It's really tiring that I can't have a discussion without you trying to prove something about me. :\

Robinho
6th September 2009, 18:26
You know what I don't like?
That instead of discussing the matter at hand you all find it more interesting to judge me as if I was the subject of the thread.
Can't you guys stick at discussing Singapore 2008 instead of this mud play? It's really tiring that I can't have a discussion without you trying to prove something about me. :\

so how about you reply to my post then, assuming you can read it, regarding the dangers of accident debris and a stricken car on a live race track.

i have watched the crash back on youtube, he hits both walls and more than one wheel could easily have been left on the racing line in an acceleration zone, never mind the carbon fibre shards for punctures and other pieces of debirs. whilst Nelson might have been able to prefect a minor accident without hurting himself, the risk of F1 car vs concrete wall is stiull there, never mind the other 19 cars racing at ful speed. it also loked like an unsighted corner so it would give drivers very little time to react to a bouncing wheel or something else in their path. to purposefully create this situation is at least negligent and at worst criminal - both for Piqeut for being part of and going through with teh plan, and Renault for creating and ordering it. of course assuming that they can prove anything, which i doubt.

but to say it wasn't dangerous to stage an accident in the middle of a live race, leaving debris and a car on track is pushing it a little IMO

Dave B
6th September 2009, 18:30
OK. no one cares for those stuntmen's health, but cry about Piquet being in danger in what is the safest race car on earth.
There was somebody on another (now closed) thread banging on about how no amount of risk was acceptable and how F1 should consider enclosed cockpits and all manner of upgrades to eliminate all potential harm.

That doesn't fit with your view that deliberately crashing at 100mph would be ok.

Thank goodness it wasn't you making the argument for reducing risk.

Oh... hang on.... :dozey:

Dave B
6th September 2009, 18:33
Secondly IF he was asked to crash the car than he was doing it consciously and was in control of what he was doing.
Presumably you also think he was in control of any flying debris, and could accurately predict the actions of the other drivers arriving on the crash scene? Blimey, he's better than any of us gave him credit for. :rolleyes:

Good lord. Hypocrisy thy name is ioan.

truefan72
6th September 2009, 18:37
You know what I don't like?
That instead of discussing the matter at hand you all find it more interesting to judge me as if I was the subject of the thread.
Can't you guys stick at discussing Singapore 2008 instead of this mud play? It's really tiring that I can't have a discussion without you trying to prove something about me. :\

ioan the problem is whenever folks want to discuss the matter, you take it as a threat to you intelligence or something and more often than not lash out with insults or belittling comments. That makes it hard to keep the discussion on course. At some point you've got to as yourself if maybe, just maybe , the tone of your comments might be a contributing factor in prevailing notions about you on this forum and in discussions. Believe me you don't get to 17,000+ post without having something valuable to contribute but as long as I've been on here, it seems that your good points are often lost by the manner of your response, lack of it or unwillingness to accept a valid alternative to a point you made. It is up to you to parse your words more carefully and treat other members more carefully no matter how outlandish you think their comments are. Nothing wrong with the odd snark remark here and there, or to call out individual posts for what they are, but when you make it a habit of doing so then it becomes bothersome.

Anyway, lets get back to the discussion, before pino shuts this thread down :)

Sonic
6th September 2009, 19:45
Just to draw a line under this. I have to say that personally I quite enjoy talking with Ioan, we don't agree on everything (who does) but I have always respected his passion and knowledge of the sport.

Anyway I guess he won't see this (is that how ignore works? Never used it myself) so I guess we can just carry on with our wild speculation about Piquet jnr. ;)

SGWilko
6th September 2009, 21:04
Just to draw a line under this. I have to say that personally I quite enjoy talking with Ioan, we don't agree on everything (who does) but I have always respected his passion and knowledge of the sport.

Anyway I guess he won't see this (is that how ignore works? Never used it myself) so I guess we can just carry on with our wild speculation about Piquet jnr. ;)

It is easy to get carried away when writing on a forum. I have conversed with Ioan via email on occasion for whatever reason and he is a very affable gentleman.

My father, I can assure you, has been banned from more political forums than you can shake a stick at, and he (yes, I am biased) is a very nice chap!!! ;) .....

So, you see, you do not necessarily see the real people on here.

ioan
6th September 2009, 21:50
Presumably you also think he was in control of any flying debris, and could accurately predict the actions of the other drivers arriving on the crash scene? Blimey, he's better than any of us gave him credit for. :rolleyes:

Good lord. Hypocrisy thy name is ioan.

Let's make a thing clear, I was answering a post that stated that Piquet's life was in danger. I think it wasn't. You and some others are taking things out of context and twisting it around in order to start your personal wars instead of discussing the topic of the thread. I'm not going to take part in these kindergarten wars. See you in a serious discussion.

ioan
6th September 2009, 21:53
ioan the problem is whenever folks want to discuss the matter, you take it as a threat to you intelligence or something and more often than not lash out with insults or belittling comments.

Where did I insult anyone in these last exchanges?!
As I see it the problem is that you and some others are talking about me instead of sticking to the the thread's subject. :\

ClarkFan
7th September 2009, 00:51
Ioan, nobody has been found guilty yet.

There has been an allegation, and Renault have been called to answer a charge.

That does not mean jack. It certainly does not mean Renault have cheated, therefore nobody should state that they have cheated.

After the WMSC, then we will know. Until then, there is the basic fair principle of innocent until proven.

We don't know what "proof" there is. If any.

And am I the only one who believes a Piquet is capable of lying? Deceit and self-promotion may well be hereditary - they get taken with the morning corn flakes if not in the DNA. Yes, this would also rebound to Nelsinho, but getting even with Flavio and Renault may outweight the risk. Besides, he may have cut a deal to minimize his penalty in exchange for "telling his story" about Renault.

If Nelsinho is the only source, I don't consider this allegation remotely credible. If Renault is penalized based solely on his testimony, the hearing is just a show trial.

ClarkFan

ClarkFan
7th September 2009, 01:10
i have watched the crash back on youtube, he hits both walls and more than one wheel could easily have been left on the racing line in an acceleration zone, never mind the carbon fibre shards for punctures and other pieces of debirs. whilst Nelson might have been able to prefect a minor accident without hurting himself, the risk of F1 car vs concrete wall is stiull there, never mind the other 19 cars racing at ful speed. it also loked like an unsighted corner so it would give drivers very little time to react to a bouncing wheel or something else in their path. to purposefully create this situation is at least negligent and at worst criminal - both for Piqeut for being part of and going through with teh plan, and Renault for creating and ordering it. of course assuming that they can prove anything, which i doubt.

And with all that chaos, how could it have been possible to ensure that Alonso didn't hit some of the debris and bung up his race, then and there? End of fiendishly crafted strategy to fix the race and keep Renault in F1, on the ordinary developments of a race. All of which makes it seem highly unlikely to me that any of this story is remotely credible.

ClarkFan

Knock-on
7th September 2009, 13:47
Ioan, nobody has been found guilty yet.

There has been an allegation, and Renault have been called to answer a charge.

That does not mean jack. It certainly does not mean Renault have cheated, therefore nobody should state that they have cheated.

After the WMSC, then we will know. Until then, there is the basic fair principle of innocent until proven.

We don't know what "proof" there is. If any.

Totally agree.

I have stated previously that I find this allergation fantastic and hope it has no foundation. However, for such a serious allergation, it is right and proper that it is investigated in full to the sake of F1 and Renault.

If they are guilty then the culprits need to face severe penalties including exclusion from the sport but if they are innocent then they should have no stain or blemish of this allergation attributed to them and if a malicious, spurious rumour has been started, the originator thrown out of the sport for good.

However, referring to the McLaren plans you asked for proof of, there is of course none to say that it was incorporated into the Renault because it wasn't investigated. We know the thief stole plans and worked at Renault on a completely different discipline to what his competency was which happened to coincide with the design of the plans he stole. We also know that the data was availiable to Renault for many months but apparently not used..... or that's what they "told" Charlie.

In fact, we don't have a clue because they were able to sweep up after them and when Charlie "investigated", he took their word at face value and it was all wrapped up in a few hours.

As I said, you want the data then you recover the backup tapes as they are time and dated so cannot be fiddled with but that wasn't desireable. I wonder if they are now that Max has fallen out of bed with Flav ;)

N. Jones
7th September 2009, 13:54
This is why I have not added me thoughts to this - we have no proof as to who made this claim and what evidence they have. Until that happens this is a non-story.

7th September 2009, 17:18
I have stated previously that I find this allergation fantastic and hope it has no foundation. However, for such a serious allergation, it is right and proper that it is investigated in full to the sake of F1 and Renault.

I agree with that, but.....



However, referring to the McLaren plans you asked for proof of, there is of course none to say that it was incorporated into the Renault because it wasn't investigated.

Thank you for confirming that you have nothing to back up your accusations.

Knock-on
7th September 2009, 17:31
Thank you for confirming that you have nothing to back up your accusations.

Because it wasn't investigated.

I'm not going to argue about this because it's a crazy situation that was purely political but hopefully it will be investigated yet. If so, I expect you will get all the confirmation you don't want :D

7th September 2009, 17:41
If so, I expect you will get all the confirmation you don't want :D

Once again, thank you for proving you have no proof to your accusations.

That makes them bollocks, cock.

7th September 2009, 18:16
I'm lost, whats the accusation knock-on has made??


When I saw that this was being opened out past the Crashgate issue, McLaren data was the first thing that jumped into my mind.

Let's not forget that had the FIA done any more than a cursory "were you being naughty?" investigation then Renault would have been deeper in the than McLaren. There was considerable evidence that data was incorporated into the car and had they asked to see the Backup tapes rather than live systems, then Renault would have been fooked.

Perhaps Flav should have remembered Max turning a blind eye before doing an et tu Brutus.

Making the mistake that Max is down and out is not a clever move!!

For the record

Dave B
7th September 2009, 18:16
I'm lost, whats the accusation knock-on has made??
The "no smoke without fire" allegations that Renault received data from McLaren, but provided investigators with a snapshot of their storage system rather than backup tapes from the time the offence was alleged to have taken place.

T'was a similar allegation to "Spygate", only McLaren got penalised millions while Renault didn't even get properly investigated.


Renault have escaped punishment in the latest spy scandal to hit Formula One.

The International Automobile Federation (FIA) found Renault guilty of breaching F1 regulations by having rival team McLaren data in their possession.

But the sport's governing body, who will publish their detailed decision on Friday, opted to impose no penalty on former world champions Renault.


Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7129049.stm

FIA consistency at its very best.

7th September 2009, 18:37
Still lost I'm afraid, Knock-on just repeated what happened back in 2007, nothing new... :)

No, he repeated an accusation, one that was never proved, which certainly is not "what happened".

For it to be "what happened" you would need proof, and he ain't got any.

All he has is assumptions.

SGWilko
7th September 2009, 19:28
Have you got any proof to say it didn't happen? :D

About 40% proof no doubt, wrapped in brown paper.....

Dave B
7th September 2009, 20:14
No, he repeated an accusation, one that was never proved, which certainly is not "what happened".

For it to be "what happened" you would need proof, and he ain't got any.

All he has is assumptions.
They were found guilty by the FIA of possessing McLaren data: see the BBC link I posted above.

However, unlike in the McLaren/Ferrari "spygate" case, the FIA chose in their infinte wisdom not to take any action.

Why, we can only speculate. Coughmaxhatesroncough.

SGWilko
7th September 2009, 21:33
They were found guilty by the FIA of possessing McLaren data: see the BBC link I posted above.

However, unlike in the McLaren/Ferrari "spygate" case, the FIA chose in their infinte wisdom not to take any action.

Why, we can only speculate. Coughmaxhatesroncough.

Nasty cough there Dave. ;)

Knock-on
8th September 2009, 11:11
Once again, thank you for proving you have no proof to your accusations.

That makes them bollocks, cock.

I really am getting fed up with your childish insults. For a grown man to behave like this is pretty pathetic, wouldn't you agree? Hopefully we can avoid this behaviour in the future and get back to the topic of the thread.

As Dave pointed out, Renault were found guilty of having the data but we have to accept that because they insisted it was never used, then it wasn't. There was no investigation, no analysis and no real attempt to find the truth apart from Charlie spending 1/2 a day interviewing the protagonists to ask if they were naughty.

Some people may prefer to have their head up their ass about this but it was the most blatent whitewash in F1 history in my opinion. However, that doesn't change the fact that they were found guilty. It is a proven accusation and not some figment of my imagination as you would have the forum believe.

The point I was trying to make was that as the FIA went back and re-examined McLaren, Flav should be careful that they don't do the same.

ArrowsFA1
8th September 2009, 12:02
Ed Gorman's view (http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_one/2009/09/the-renault-allegations-at-singapore-could-they-really-be-true.html):

I have to admit that, even after all the scandals and intrigue of the last few years and having read about dirty tricks in the years before I started writing about Formula One, I am finding it hard to believe that the allegations against Renault at Singapore last year could possibly be true.
All one can say is that, if it turns out that they are correct and Nelson Piquet was asked to crash his car deliberately, then this will go down as one of the worst episodes of cheating in sporting history, across all sports. Right now, all we know about are allegations, however, and we must regard Renault as entirely innocent until proven otherwise....

ioan
8th September 2009, 12:04
I'm a bit lost as to how can be seen having 11 disks of 'similar nature' (whatever that means) be on a 'grander scale' as having the whole technical dossier about the F2007.
Is there anything that is better and completer than having all the info about a car?!

Note that I believe that Renault should have been punished to even if they chose to collaborate with the FIA instead of trying to dismiss the charges.

Knock-on
8th September 2009, 12:18
The Renault scandal in 2007 was quoted at the time to be on a grander scale to the Mclaren controversy.
http://www.asiaone.com/Motoring/News/Story/A1Story20071129-38881.html
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33444
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/12/06/renault-guilty-but-unpunished-in-spying-case/
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63853
Whereas chief designer Mike Coughlan had in his possession a dossier containing drawings of key Ferrari components, Renault had aquired 11 disks of a similar nature. Seven key members of the Renault design team had admitted to accessing the information on 15 different computers, but promised they had not used the information in any context.
Mclaren also pledged that they had discarded any of Coughlans designs which may have been influenced by their stolen data. Scrutineers were happy that Mclaren had not used any of the data and were under close watch for the remainder of the 2007 season, testing, and the 2008 season opener.

Renault were questioned over 3 days and scrutineer's were not used in their case. I think it goes to show that last time they were let off extremely lightly probably due to pressure from the FIA with the controversy surrounding the sport at the time.

Race fixing could see Renault as a car manufacturer pull out at the end of the year IMO... :)

The way the FIA works, if they can't get them for race fixing, I wouldn't be surprised to see them getting them for this. It wouldn't take much digging.

Personally, I think a line should just de drawn over Renaultgate and let it go away. It serves no purpose now and just because McLaren got hammered doesn't mean I want to see Renault similarly punished. What McLaren did was wrong and although the practice was commonplace in the sport, and although the punnishment was draconian and Max's way of getting to Ron, still they deserved to be found guilty.

BeansBeansBeans
8th September 2009, 13:23
If Renault are found guilty I hope the punishment isn't too harsh. Ultimately, all they did was cleverly use the then-ludicrous SC rules to their advantage.

Knock-on
8th September 2009, 13:33
If Renault are found guilty I hope the punishment isn't too harsh. Ultimately, all they did was cleverly use the then-ludicrous SC rules to their advantage.

I really cannot agree with you on this one 3b.

If, ( and we keep having to write IF ) Renault are guilty of deliberately crashing a driver then I hope they throw the bloody book at them. Personally, I think Schumacher was very lucky not to get a ban when he did it but IMHO, this was much worse.

ioan
8th September 2009, 14:08
Out of interest ioan do you know exactly what the content of those 11 disks were? Mclaren had a 780 page document regarding the F2007 which may have been 5 or 6 meg in size. For data to be stored on 11 disks, suggests to me and the artcle writer that this may account to a similar nature. Unless of course these 11 disks were the content of Ron Dennis's online poker strategies? You guess is as good as mine.

First of all you don't know much about any of the data and thus, as I pointed it out, saying that in one case there was more data than in the other is a bit far fetched IMO.

Also saying that the 780 pages of documentation about the F2007 would fit in 5-6 Mbytes is a very wild guess.

If you go back and read the articles about the two case, written back in 2007, you'll find it was discussed in the press what those disks at Renault contained and it wasn't about the whole car, just certain systems.

ArrowsFA1
8th September 2009, 14:30
If you go back and read the articles about the two case, written back in 2007, you'll find...
...that they have no relevance to Renault being charged with conspiring "with its driver, Nelson Piquet Jr, to cause a deliberate crash at the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix with the aim of causing the deployment of the safety car to the advantage of its other driver, Fernando Alonso."

:s mokin:

Knock-on
8th September 2009, 15:01
First of all you don't know much about any of the data and thus, as I pointed it out, saying that in one case there was more data than in the other is a bit far fetched IMO.

Also saying that the 780 pages of documentation about the F2007 would fit in 5-6 Mbytes is a very wild guess.

I don't know whether it's worth pointing out that 780 pages would easily fit on 5-6 Meg but it will easily. If you take about 10k for a sheet of PDF for example, you can easily store it on a single floppy so 5-6 mb is plenty. However, that's by the by.


If you go back and read the articles about the two case, written back in 2007, you'll find it was discussed in the press what those disks at Renault contained and it wasn't about the whole car, just certain systems.

It is said by Renault what was on the disk and what was returned to McLaren. From memory it was suspension, fuel and something else. It was also said by Renault that a couple of people may have glanced at a couple of low res diagrams but not acted on it. Bit like the old "I didn't inhale" one that :laugh:

IF nobody used any of the data, why then did Macreth immediatly start work on a fuel project when he moved from McLaren even though he had no experience whatsoever on Fuel systems???

Then we have to remember how this came to light. It was from a relitivly junior engineer that joined McLaren from Renault who mentioned that they had all seen the McLaren data for the last year or so.

Renault have been caught in the cookie jar and been exposed as liars on just these 2 points so I suggest instead of raising the ugly matter, you do what everyone else is trying to do and let sleeping dogs lay. I can see no good whatsoever in dragging Renault through the mud as has happened to McLaren but don't try and gloss over it as if it was nothing.

ioan
8th September 2009, 15:14
I don't know whether it's worth pointing out that 780 pages would easily fit on 5-6 Meg but it will easily. If you take about 10k for a sheet of PDF for example, you can easily store it on a single floppy so 5-6 mb is plenty. However, that's by the by.

It's just that we aren't talking about text in PDF format here but about more complex data that most probably needs more storage than a couple kb per page, which page would probably not be A4 either.

Anyways as you point it out yourself the data that Renault had about the McLaren was only about a few systems, which contradicts Henners' claims that it was more than what McLaren had about the F2007, which was pretty much everything about the car down to the smallest detail.

And BTW I agree that Renault engineers certainly took advantage of the data in the very same way the McLaren ones' did with the Ferrari data, ie started integrating the solutions to their cars ASAP. I'm also fairly sure that McLaren getting away with a fine and Renault getting away with a slap on the wrist had all to do with a certain Ecclestone protecting his pockets.

However, did the FIA say anything about revisiting Renault if they smell something fishy related to them?

Knock-on
8th September 2009, 15:49
It's just that we aren't talking about text in PDF format here but about more complex data that most probably needs more storage than a couple kb per page, which page would probably not be A4 either.

Anyways as you point it out yourself the data that Renault had about the McLaren was only about a few systems, which contradicts Henners' claims that it was more than what McLaren had about the F2007, which was pretty much everything about the car down to the smallest detail.

And BTW I agree that Renault engineers certainly took advantage of the data in the very same way the McLaren ones' did with the Ferrari data, ie started integrating the solutions to their cars ASAP. I'm also fairly sure that McLaren getting away with a fine and Renault getting away with a slap on the wrist had all to do with a certain Ecclestone protecting his pockets.

However, did the FIA say anything about revisiting Renault if they smell something fishy related to them?

I'm sorry ioan but you misread what I wrote. I didn't say that they had a few systems. I said Renault only admitted to having access to 4 systems and were proven to be liars in the rest of the statement so I have no reason to believe them on that point.

So, I don't contradict Henners claim at all and because they were never properly investigated by the FIA, cannot provide the evidence that should be availiable to confirm or deny what they had access to.

I do agree that Renault began incorporating the data into the car ASAP as proven by PM's work on the fuel project but as far as the McLaren goes, the FIA pulled the car apart and went through it with a fine tooth comb looking for evidence of Ferrari IP and found none.

Lastly, I don't think there is any suggestion that the FIA are going to reinvestigate (or investigate in the first place) this debarcle but merely suggested that the way Max's FIA works, if they can't nail Renault for CrashGate, they may well reopen WhitewashGate.

Dave B
8th September 2009, 16:07
If Renault are found guilty I hope the punishment isn't too harsh. Ultimately, all they did was cleverly use the then-ludicrous SC rules to their advantage.
I disagree totally. They didn't just take advantage of the (admittedly daft) safety car rule, they are alleged to have deliberately engineered the situation which resulted in the appearance of the SC in the first place.

If this wasn't bad enough, it's alleged that they did so by deliberately instructing their driver to crash; and no matter how safe ioan thinks that may have been it would have posed a totally avoidable risk to following cars, track workers, and Piquet himself.

If (big "if") there's truth behind this then I can't think of a punishment serious enough.

Knock-on
8th September 2009, 16:29
I disagree totally. They didn't just take advantage of the (admittedly daft) safety car rule, they are alleged to have deliberately engineered the situation which resulted in the appearance of the SC in the first place.

If this wasn't bad enough, it's alleged that they did so by deliberately instructing their driver to crash; and no matter how safe ioan thinks that may have been it would have posed a totally avoidable risk to following cars, track workers, and Piquet himself.

If (big "if") there's truth behind this then I can't think of a punishment serious enough.

:up:

What if a wheel flew off to kill a Marshall or a suspension part sprang back injuring another driver.

In looking at this (potential) incident, you have to consider the very real risks that could have resulted.

If I do 35mph in a 30mph zone, I get 3 points and a £60 fine. If I do the same after consuming 3 pints of "old Rumble Guts" then the punishment is likely to be 18 month ban and £1000 fine because of the seriousness of my actions.

If there is a case to answer and they someone is guilty, I wouldn't want to see them back in Motorsport if I was a competitor.

BeansBeansBeans
8th September 2009, 16:35
If this had occurred forty or fifty years ago we'd be treating it as a humorous tale of derring-do.

Everyone's hysterical nowadays.

Knock-on
8th September 2009, 16:47
If this had occurred forty or fifty years ago we'd be treating it as a humorous tale of derring-do.

Everyone's hysterical nowadays.

This would never have been treated as a tale of Derring-do 3b.

In all forms of Motorsport, you have to trust your life to other people and drivers. It's a hard sport with no quarter asked or given but you have to rely on your rivals not to kill you.

I really cannot see how anyone could possibly condone this act (if it's proven) as anything but the most diabolical act of cheating in Motorsport. It is akin to the Bloodgate incident at Harliquinns or Ben Johnson in Sprinting.

BeansBeansBeans
8th September 2009, 16:57
This would never have been treated as a tale of Derring-do 3b.

Wouldnt it? People still talk with nostalgic affection about 'Black' Jack Brabham putting a wheel off-course in order to flick stones at the chasing pack.


In all forms of Motorsport, you have to trust your life to other people and drivers. It's a hard sport with no quarter asked or given but you have to rely on your rivals not to kill you.

I really cannot see how anyone could possibly condone this act (if it's proven) as anything but the most diabolical act of cheating in Motorsport. It is akin to the Bloodgate incident at Harliquinns or Ben Johnson in Sprinting.

Presumably you would have supported life bans for Senna and Schumacher from '90 and '94 respectively?

And I'm not condoning what Renault are alledged to have done. If it turns out to be true then they deserve to be sanctioned, but not to anything like the degree being suggested elsewhere.

Knock-on
8th September 2009, 17:10
Wouldnt it? People still talk with nostalgic affection about 'Black' Jack Brabham putting a wheel off-course in order to flick stones at the chasing pack.



Presumably you would have supported life bans for Senna and Schumacher from '90 and '94 respectively?

And I'm not condoning what Renault are alledged to have done. If it turns out to be true then they deserve to be sanctioned, but not to anything like the degree being suggested elsewhere.

What Senna and Schumacher did was disgracefull and should have resulted in sanctions. Senna may have thought he had justification but there is no justification for deliberately ramming off an opponant. Schumacher made a split second decision and I doubt it was pre-meditated but he still cheated a championship.

Both should have been punished but the thing here is if true, a driver was ordered as a strategy to crash. There can be no justification and yes, if true, I wouldn't want to see Piquet or Flav at another racing track. Ever.

8th September 2009, 18:34
Renault were not found guilty of using Mclaren data.

They were found guilty of having the data. Just as Mclaren were at the first WMSC.

Mclaren, however, decided to play silly-buggers with the FIA, leading to them being back in front of the WMSC.

Renault did not fail to cooperate.

If you cannot understand the difference, then perhaps you need to attend night school, since you certainly missed out on parts of your education.

ioan
8th September 2009, 18:35
If this had occurred forty or fifty years ago we'd be treating it as a humorous tale of derring-do.

Everyone's hysterical nowadays.

Maybe we all lack a sense of humor and don't see what you find humorous about this?!

ioan
8th September 2009, 18:38
Schumacher made a split second decision and I doubt it was pre-meditated but he still cheated a championship.

That one was never proven.
And he got punished for the other ones even if the proof wasn't really there either.

As for Senna, I'm still amazed that someone got away with such a premeditated action and was also handed the title on a plate after that. Just shows that the approach the FIA are having now is more down to earth than what we had 20 years ago.

pino
8th September 2009, 18:56
Let's keep Schumacher and Senna off here, thank you !

8th September 2009, 19:43
A sensible discussion with different points shared


Not quite...a crock of excrement with no proof is not the basis for a sensible debate.

Bagwan
9th September 2009, 03:01
It's still not very cricket , but I would suggest that Flavio may have ordered young Piquet to spin and stall , rather than spin and crash .
He would have achieved the same thing , but without the skills , he crunched the car .

This does not excuse the cynical nature of the order , but it makes it a little less sinister .


"Spin , and cause a safety car so that your team-mate can win" is not so different an order to , "hold the others up , so your team-mate can win" .

Given that orders are forbidden , they would need to be stated differently , but , though a dirty trick , not so far from the rules , really , if Nelson could have kept it off the wall .

I think it would be pretty hard to convince any driver to deliberately crash in F1 , no matter who it was , but you might ask them to spin .

Roamy
9th September 2009, 03:18
they only proof they could have would be Piquet talking sh!t. But I guess in the land of Islam you are guilty until proven innocent. So they will try and deball Flavio and he will buy the Italian mafia who will sever the FIA is many places and life will go on in the name of money and power with the little twerps always trying to cause problems.

DBell
9th September 2009, 04:13
I saw this article today from longtime F1 writer Adam Cooper and found it interesting.

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/cooper-the-singapore-2008-affair/

Knock-on
9th September 2009, 12:40
That one was never proven.
And he got punished for the other ones even if the proof wasn't really there either.

As for Senna, I'm still amazed that someone got away with such a premeditated action and was also handed the title on a plate after that. Just shows that the approach the FIA are having now is more down to earth than what we had 20 years ago.


Let's keep Schumacher and Senna off here, thank you !

Sorry Pino but I believe it has some relevance.

I am sure ioan and I will be happy to ignore whether there was any malice intended or whether the incidents were imagined or real ;)

I agree with ioan that it's amazing Senna was "rewarded" for crashing into his rival.

Then we have Schumy who (argueably) did the same thing twice; getting away with it once and being hammered the 2nd time.

Lots of (typical) inconsistency here from the FIA as you would expect.

However, as I said, neither involved anything apart from the drivers. If a team were to request a driver crash to benefir other drivers then it's a whole new bag.

BeansBeansBeans
9th September 2009, 13:47
The Schumacher & Senna incidents were relevant to the point I was making and relevant in Knockie's reply. The fact that certain other members couldn't resist the opportunity to rake up old arguments is their problem.

inimitablestoo
9th September 2009, 18:39
Autosport's latest news story on Crashgate (as it inevitably will become) suggests it was Piquet Jr who came up with the idea of crashing out, and Piquet Sr who ran to Max with the story. Bearing in mind some of the stories I've heard about Piquet Jr's time in Brazilian F3, with some, er, interesting interpretations of rules, and gun-toting race promoters threatening rival drivers and the like, this remarkably seems the most plausible theory...

ioan
9th September 2009, 18:45
Autosport's latest news story on Crashgate (as it inevitably will become) suggests it was Piquet Jr who came up with the idea of crashing out, and Piquet Sr who ran to Max with the story.

IMO this story doesn't have credibility as Piquet Sr is not so stupid as to turn in his son.
Either Piquet Jr had the idea, which I have my doubts about and than Piquet Sr wouldn't go straight to max to report it.
Or Someone else had the idea and Jr was pressured into doing it or else bye bye F1 seat and in this case I believe it that Piquet Sr might have reported it.

SGWilko
9th September 2009, 19:02
IMO this story doesn't have credibility as Piquet Sr is not so stupid as to turn in his son.

Either Piquet Jr had the idea, which I have my doubts about and than Piquet Sr wouldn't go straight to max to report it.
Or Someone else had the idea and Jr was pressured into doing it or else bye bye F1 seat and in this case I believe it that Piquet Sr might have reported it.

Wouldn't put anything past the Piquets, me.....

What this story does all but confirm, is that the crash was most definately deliberate, and for the sole benefit
Of Alonso.

This is bad news for Fred, as that is two negatives from ywo seperate teams.

Be interesting to see this pan out now, cos the poop is gonna hit the fan for sure.

Giuseppe F1
9th September 2009, 21:41
Interesting views from James Allens blog - With Symonds and Briatore all but admitting that this conversation to deliberatly crash DID happen, then I reckon this will be a real nail in the coffin - Will be interesting if the whole team is punished (I.e. a Renault exclusion, or whether the individuals involved will be the main bearers of any punishment and or even criminal charges:

=========================



http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/explosive-new-information-on-renault-pre-crash-meeting/


Explosive new information on Renault pre-crash meeting



Posted on | September 9, 2009 | by James AllengravatarcloseAuthor: James Allen Name: James Allen
Email: [email:2xdc0a8i]editor@jamesallenonf1.com[/email:2xdc0a8i]
Site: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com


Autosport is carrying a story this evening with some amazing revelations about a meeting which took place between Renault’s Flavio Briatore, Pat Symonds and Nelson Piquet Jr at Singapore last year.

Piquet at centre of huge storm (Photo: Darren Heath)

Piquet at centre of huge storm (Photo: Darren Heath)

Renault stand accused of deliberately causing Piquet to crash, just after Alonso’s early first pit stop, in order to give Alonso the chance to win the race, as the rest of the field would pit under the ensuing safety car.

The first ever night race, the Singapore Grand Prix was sponsored by Renault’s title sponsor, ING, making it a perfect day for them.

Autosport’s Jon Noble quotes ’sources’, in his report as follows:

“Sources claim that in evidence submitted to the FIA by Nelson Piquet, the Brazilian driver says he was asked by Briatore and Symonds to crash deliberately early in the race so as to help Alonso win.

“Piquet says that he agreed to do so because he felt uncomfortable about his situation at the team, with Renault having not renewed his contract for 2009 at that time – and Briatore was stalling on making a firm commitment. Piquet suggests that he only went ahead and caused the accident because he felt he would be rewarded for his actions.

“In his evidence, Piquet claims that he was taken aside by Symonds after the first meeting and instructured that he should crash on lap 13 or 14, shortly after Alonso’s scheduled first stop, at Turn 17.

“The reason this part of the track was singled out was because there were no cranes present there to lift the car away, so any accident would virtually guarantee a safety car.”

The story has echoes of the blood scandal in rugby last season, when a Harlequins player was instructed by the team manager to fake a blood injury using stage blood, in order to get a specialist kicker onto the pitch.

Autosport goes on on say that the information was given to FIA president Max Mosley by Nelson Piquet Sr on July 26th. This was the day of the Hungarian Grand Prix. That same day Renault were charged for releasing Alonso’s unsafe car back into the race after a pit stop. That infringement initially got them a one race ban, which was lifted on appeal, but it germinated the notion that the team was not acting safely.

Since then the Singapore issue has been extensively investigated by an FIA team, assisted by representatives of Quest, a leading independent investigative firm, run by former Metropolitan police chief Lord Stevens, which Mosley hired last year to look into who set up the sting on him in the News of the World.

This is an extremely serious allegation and if proven, is far more serious than the McLaren spy case of 2007 because it concerns putting the lives of the driver, the marshals and potentially the public at risk. If proven the race fixing aspect of it would have a very negative impact on the image of the sport, just as it is emerging from the instability of the teams’ breakaway threat.

According to the story, both Symonds and Briatore deny Piquet’s account. They accept that the meeting took place, but say that the idea of crashing was not theirs – two men’s word against one.

Interestingly in the evidence which has come to light thus far, there is no suggestion that Fernando Alonso, who was the main beneficiary of Piquet’s accident and who is hoping to be unveiled as a Ferrari driver shortly, had any part in the planning of it.

The hearing before the World Council, will take place on Monday September 21st.

edv
9th September 2009, 21:46
Wow! Somebody is lying.

schmenke
9th September 2009, 22:32
Good Lord, I hope that is not true!
I will have a completely new perspective on the sport and be embarassed to be labeled a "fan" :s

DexDexter
9th September 2009, 22:41
So there really was something behind this, I though it was all just hot air. Sad day for F1.

Somebody
9th September 2009, 22:57
Here's the actual Autosport link JA mentions: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78446


Piquet's claims have, however, been denied by both Briatore and Symonds in documents that are believed to have been submitted with the FIA. Although they confirm that the meeting between the three of them took place, both suggest that it was Piquet's own suggestion to cause an accident.
Okay, right there they ADMIT there was a conspiracy to cause an accident, and thus bring out the SC, yes? In a sense, whoever came up with the idea is irrelevant - all that matters is the plan.

And...

A report in Italian magazine Autosprint also suggests that telemetry data from Piquet's car has emerged as another reason why the matter has gone to the WMSC.

At Turn 17 where Piquet crashed, normally the rear wheels of the Renault would lose grip on the exit - requiring the driver to ease off the throttle briefly. However, on the lap he crashed, Piquet kept accelerating even though the rear wheels had lost grip.

Well, well.

SGWilko
9th September 2009, 23:16
Here's the actual Autosport link JA mentions: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78446


Okay, right there they ADMIT there was a conspiracy to cause an accident, and thus bring out the SC, yes? In a sense, whoever came up with the idea is irrelevant - all that matters is the plan.

And...


Well, well.

Not good, is it? :(

schmenke
9th September 2009, 23:40
If there is evidence to suggest deliberate wrong-doing, is it possible that the Singapore authorities launch their own investigation into a possible criminal offense?

Roamy
10th September 2009, 00:07
yea they want to "cane" piquet and flavio :)

CNR
10th September 2009, 00:38
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/story/?id=290536

this looks like it will be bigger then spygate - liegate -


It appears Nelson Piquet Jr. is responsible for the "new evidence" the FIA is using against Renault in the race fixing allegations related to last year's Singapore Grand Prix.

Piquet reportedly told F1 officials he agreed to the idea because he was worried about his future within the team as he had no contract yet for 2009.
Meanwhile, according to Autosprint magazine, telemetry from Piquet's car shows he continued to accelerate through Turn 17 on the lap he crashed despite his rear wheels losing grip. On previous laps, the data showed him easing off the accelerator to compenstate for the loss of grip.

keysersoze
10th September 2009, 03:27
What's the old saying, something like:

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

Oh dear, from the look of things, heads are gonna roll on this one. :mad:

leopard
10th September 2009, 04:49
they only proof they could have would be Piquet talking sh!t. But I guess in the land of Islam you are guilty until proven innocent. So they will try and deball Flavio and he will buy the Italian mafia who will sever the FIA is many places and life will go on in the name of money and power with the little twerps always trying to cause problems.
I think we are very tolerant, you are innocent although proven guilty... ;)

speeddurango
10th September 2009, 08:33
For most of the times though, a thing walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is indeed a duck.

DexDexter
10th September 2009, 08:39
I think we are very tolerant, you are innocent although proven guilty... ;)

Isn't it the other way around in f1? :D

Dave B
10th September 2009, 09:24
Flavio is saying that Piquet alone suggested this, and that Renault wanted no part of this. However, I can see no other possible explanation for Alonso's phenomenally heavy fuel load at his first stop other than the team being confident of a safety car period.

This raises the possibility of Alonso himself having some prior knowledge. He's not an idiot, and would have known that his qualifying fuel load gave him absolutely zero chance of a decent result unless there was an interruption to the race, just after his first stop.

Purely circumstantial, but I can't help thinking back to his reaction in the holding area just before the podium ceremony. For somebody who had just won his first race of the year after half a season of struggle, he looked positively subdued. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I find it difficult to believe that he wouldn't have had some inkling that his victory wasn't entirely down to luck. :s

leopard
10th September 2009, 09:32
Isn't it the other way around in f1? :D
we are So Fine :)

It's a story of a man
Who works as hard as he can
Just to be a man who stands on his own

leopard
10th September 2009, 10:07
For those doesn't know what was it about, it was only small pick of So Fine from GNR ...

ioan
10th September 2009, 12:14
Flavio is saying that Piquet alone suggested this, and that Renault wanted no part of this. However, I can see no other possible explanation for Alonso's phenomenally heavy fuel load at his first stop other than the team being confident of a safety car period.

Flav said such idea was never talked about.
Symonds says that it was Piquet's idea.
Their contradictory stories are already more than enough to question the integrity of their words.
When you add the strange Alonso strategy, and I doubt it was Piquet who decided Alonso's furl load for the race day, it's obvious that the liar isn't Jr.

jas123f1
10th September 2009, 12:53
Flav said such idea was never talked about.
Symonds says that it was Piquet's idea.
Their contradictory stories are already more than enough to question the integrity of their words.
When you add the strange Alonso strategy, and I doubt it was Piquet who decided Alonso's furl load for the race day, it's obvious that the liar isn't Jr.

Yes - it looks that Nelson Piquet is telling the true story and it’s clear that there is a serious risk for the negative consequences to every one involved - it's there also for Nelson. How or if it will affect even Alonsos carrier will the future show – but I hope he is not involved. When Symonds says that it was Piquet's idea doesn’t really changes or help – it’s not interesting who came with the idea - sadly we can say now that it’s clear that an idea was there.. sad sad..

SGWilko
10th September 2009, 13:09
This little snippet;

Radio transcripts of the race, which have been obtained by the FIA, show that director of engineering Symonds did not share the concerns of fellow team members about making such an early stop – telling the team: "No, no, it's going to be alright."

From this story - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78451 - is most concerning.

Dave B
10th September 2009, 13:29
"No, no, it's going to be alright."

That could be the sentence that hangs them out to dry. Why not "it's a calculated risk" or "we're predicting a safety car"? Symonds seems pretty certain that the outcome is guaranteed. I'm starting to wonder if him and Flav and were in any way involved in Derren Brown's lottery "predictions" :p

I am evil Homer
10th September 2009, 13:33
Why? Did they use split screens and pre recorded segments too?!?!

SGWilko
10th September 2009, 13:34
"No, no, it's going to be alright."

That could be the sentence that hangs them out to dry. Why not "it's a calculated risk" or "we're predicting a safety car"? Symonds seems pretty certain that the outcome is guaranteed. I'm starting to wonder if him and Flav and were in any way involved in Derren Brown's lottery "predictions" :p

Apologies for thread creep, but...

If that guy Brown can predict the lottery, why does he not win every draw?

Same for every clairvoyant etc......

;)

Dave B
10th September 2009, 14:02
Apologies for thread creep, but...

If that guy Brown can predict the lottery, why does he not win every draw?

Same for every clairvoyant etc......

;)
I knew you were going to say that.... :p

SGWilko
10th September 2009, 14:04
I knew you were going to say that.... :p

Groan.....

:rotflmao:

markabilly
10th September 2009, 15:09
Flav said such idea was never talked about.
Symonds says that it was Piquet's idea.
Their contradictory stories are already more than enough to question the integrity of their words.
When you add the strange Alonso strategy, and I doubt it was Piquet who decided Alonso's furl load for the race day, it's obvious that the liar isn't Jr.


If it weren't Jr. then it must be that mechanic who can not tighten those wheels.....where is Dave Ryan when you need him? :rolleyes:

ioan
10th September 2009, 15:18
If it weren't Jr. then it must be that mechanic who can not tighten those wheels.....where is Dave Ryan when you need him? :rolleyes:

Good point and I think that the one who will lose out in this situation will be Dave Ryan's equivalent, Pat Symonds.

markabilly
10th September 2009, 15:41
Good point and I think that the one who will lose out in this situation will be Dave Ryan's equivalent, Pat Symonds.

but the real question may not be what the FIA will do as to making pat walk the plank, but if this is a criminal violation of Singapore law......those folks seem to love to throw necktie parties for spitting on the sidewalk, :eek:

so i wonder if there could be any match fixing charges, esp. if anyone bet any money..... :confused:

mind you, just idle speculation, because at first right after the crash, for the first 5 seconds afterwards, i thought?????

then I thought, well no way, just coincidences......even with all this stuff of the last few days, I still would say NO WAY...but now from what I have seen in the last 24 hours, the "did they do it discussion" no longer has any relevance.....my advice is if this constitutes a possible crime in Singapore, them three boys need to stay out of that country and any country with extradition treaties.......

Besides, Flav's own statements make him out to be a liar compared to Pat and the other facts as you point out.....

DexDexter
10th September 2009, 15:46
Flav said such idea was never talked about.
Symonds says that it was Piquet's idea.
Their contradictory stories are already more than enough to question the integrity of their words.
When you add the strange Alonso strategy, and I doubt it was Piquet who decided Alonso's furl load for the race day, it's obvious that the liar isn't Jr.

It puzzles me why Symonds would admit that the matter was discussed. If Flavio & co did it, they should deny that discussions took place and it would just be their word against Piquet. I almost wish they would do that cause I don't want to see Renault get out of F1. If you have a strategy where driver crashes intentionally, lying about it is no big deal after that.

I am evil Homer
10th September 2009, 16:01
Well quite...the lie is no longer the issue, it's what they allegedly asked Piquet to do and from the Autosport report is seems telemetary is backing his side of events.

DexDexter
10th September 2009, 16:08
Well quite...the lie is no longer the issue, it's what they allegedly asked Piquet to do and from the Autosport report is seems telemetary is backing his side of events.

IMO telemetry cannot prove that somebody ordered Piquet to crash, it can only prove that Piquet himself crashed intentionally. They need hard evidence in order to prove that it was Flavio or Symonds that ordered it. IMO Piquet's words againt theirs will not hold in court.

keysersoze
10th September 2009, 16:58
It puzzles me why Symonds would admit that the matter was discussed. If Flavio & co did it, they should deny that discussions took place and it would just be their word against Piquet. I almost wish they would do that cause I don't want to see Renault get out of F1. If you have a strategy where driver crashes intentionally, lying about it is no big deal after that.

It puzzles me that you think lying about this is in some way appropriate.

Roamy
10th September 2009, 17:14
The real sad thing here could be deeper than one wants.

1. Piquet is a whiny daddy's boy - so that is a big turn-off to many who follow F1.

2. Flavio is a documented cheater!

3. MOsely is a revengeful twit

4. Bernie probably wants to make a movie out of it

So all and all it gets interesting. We discussed it but never ordered it. Oh I had TC on the car but we never used it.

Oh Daddy I just can't beat him - can you buy me a special engine

For Christ's sake I am for digging up the "Old Man"

ioan
10th September 2009, 17:31
IMO telemetry cannot prove that somebody ordered Piquet to crash, it can only prove that Piquet himself crashed intentionally. They need hard evidence in order to prove that it was Flavio or Symonds that ordered it. IMO Piquet's words againt theirs will not hold in court.

What court?!
And in a court things aren't black and white either, especially when two of the major players gave contradicting testimony.

If you add the fact that telemetry supports the intended crash accusation than someone's head will fall and I'm sure enough that it will be Symonds one of those to be ousted.

I am evil Homer
10th September 2009, 17:33
I hope Pat had nothing to do with it because he always seemed a very intelligent, forthright guy. In fact the only person who was capable of out-witting Brawn.

Meanwhile Flav continues only employing people he manages....

ioan
10th September 2009, 17:36
I hope Pat had nothing to do with it because he always seemed a very intelligent, forthright guy. In fact the only person who was capable of out-witting Brawn.

Meanwhile Flav continues only employing people he manages....

By the looks of it either Flavio or Pat lied when questioned about the events, so at least one of them is going to be walked all over during the coming weeks and I have a feeling it will not be the big sweaty guy.

SGWilko
10th September 2009, 17:52
Lest we forget that Flavio and Max M are not best buddies..........

I am evil Homer
10th September 2009, 18:10
Surely you're not suggested Max would use some sort of personal vendetta to remove Ron...sorry...I meant Flavio...

rabf1
10th September 2009, 18:33
There should be a statute of limitations on this stuff. Last year is over.