Singapore 2008: Briatore and Symmonds resign

[Valve Bounce]

Renault will turn up in Singapore because the police have no rights to interfere with an FIA investigation unless the FIA ask for assistance. This may have been an example of cheating within a sport with a governing body, so if the police were to wade in a take action, then the FIA would be obsolete in their presence. It works in the same way that Raikkonen's speeding fine/penalty at Monza was not an issue for the police. This is why F1 has a governing body, and the only way police have an automatic right to be involved, is if a death has occured at a race track.... :)

Really??? In the words of the infamous McEnroe, "Are you serious?"
I can list the following for you to deliberate on:
1. Race fixing,
2. Deliberately causing a crash which could endanger the lives of the driver, marshals, and spectators.

In fact, I could go as far as to say this has nothing to do with any FIA investigation as the FIA has offered to give Pat Symonds immunity, while the police in Singapore sure as heck do not have to obvserve this at all.

Now if you think that is not reason for a police investigation anywhere in this world, then please tell us why.

[Daniel]

I doubt the general staff knew anything of the plot (assuming its real). I understand your POV but IMO the punishment should be handed to those guilty of something - in this case Flab, Pat, PK jnr and any one else who attended the "meeting".
You race as a team and you take the penalty as a team. McLaren sucked it up and now Renno will have to.

[Valve Bounce]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/jockey-munce-found-guilty/2007/03/01/1172338781942.html

This is what happens when you buck local laws. This one infers race fixing is involved.

[harsha]

I def think Alonso will have been in the know for this...

and him coming to Renault for this,he might have been better served keeping his mouth shut and sticking to mclaren

[SGWilko]

Well I didn't watch "Brokeback Mountain" Must have been a big hit with Piquet!

Are you homophobic, or do you just not like houses?

[Daniel]

Are you homophobic, or do you just not like houses?
Why did you even bother asking? The answer is clear

[SGWilko]

Why did you even bother asking? The answer is clear

Aha, he's a caravan man is he..... ;)

[Dave B]

I think that some people mistake bigotry with humour, and it's rather tiresome.

[SGWilko]

I prefer to poke fun at the bigots, it's very rewarding......

[Knock-on]

I think that some people mistake bigotry with humour, and it's rather tiresome.

Besides, Fousto never discriminates against a particular class, colour, sex or persuasion. He hates everyone equally :laugh:

(Just joking Uncs, put the 7 iron away :D )

[ioan]

McLaren sucked it up and now Renno will have to.

Last time McLaren just threw Dave Ryan under the bus. That's what Renault will probably do.

[ioan]

Are you homophobic, or do you just not like houses?

I thought it was obvious that fousto has a phobia about anything but guns.

[Daniel]

Last time McLaren just threw Dave Ryan under the bus. That's what Renault will probably do.
True, but that was different. That was just a comedic screwup.

[Powered by Cosworth]

Briatore and Symonds leave Renault

By Matt Beer Wednesday, September 16th 2009, 11:10 GMT

Renault has announced that team boss Flavio Briatore and engineering chief Pat Symonds have parted company with the team and that it will "not dispute" the allegations of race-fixing when it appears before the World Motor Sport Council next week.

The team had been accused of asking driver Nelson Piquet to crash deliberately in order to cause a safety car period that would work to his team-mate Fernando Alonso's advantage. The Spaniard went on to win the race.

"The ING Renault F1 Team will not dispute the recent allegations made by the FIA concerning the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix," said a statement from the team.

"It also wishes to state that its managing director, Flavio Briatore and its executive director of engineering, Pat Symonds, have left the team.

"Before attending the hearing before the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on 21 September 2009, the team will not make any further comment."

More details to follow...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78668


So what, does that mean they were guilty?

[Knock-on]

Blimey.

Maximum respect to Renault for being proactive. I suggest it will reflect favourable on them at the hearing. I don't expect much punishment to happen although they are liable for the conduct of their employees. Suspended sentence or fine I think.

As for Symonds and Flav, can they still be summoned and punished by the FIA now or just banned.

[Daniel]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78668


So what, does that mean they were guilty?
Wow! :D Flabio never to be seen in F1 again by the looks of it :D

[Ranger]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78668


So what, does that mean they were guilty?

Maybe.

Guilty or not, I think Carlos Ghosn may have kicked them both out to prevent the whole team being dragged through the mud, whatever the outcome.

However...

As the Renault team - rather than Briatore and Symonds themselves - has been charged over the allegations, today's announcement by the team is unlikely to have any bearing on next week's hearing.

[MAX_THRUST]

Not good for Fernado, he has now been involved in two scandals, one with Ron and one with Flav. Both he was inocent in of course and was fully unaware.

Renault have done the right thing do you think they will pull out of F1 now.

Now Fernado will be going to Ferrari, to be annouced in the next couple of days, if not this afternoon.

[F1boat]

I prefer to poke fun at the bigots, it's very rewarding......

I agree!

[wedge]

Renault out of F1?

Symonds to be be black listed along with Mike Couglin?

Who cares about Briatore's future? :D

Well done Piquet Jr, looks like you will never ever get to be near an F1 factory, let alone test an F1 car ever again!

[dcr22B]

Renault Megane S2000 for the WRC soon?

[Ranger]

The real question is who will replace Briatore and Symonds?

Will Renault be in any capacity to continue next year?

[ArrowsFA1]

Blimey.
Blimey indeed, and may I add a blummin' 'eck!!! :eek:

So have they been pushed out so that Renault avoids any more negative publicity? Did one or both of them initiate the "race fix" idea? What of Piquet - does this do anything to help him? What happens to Briatore's legal action?

I care little for Briatore, but Pat Symonds? He's been around since the Toleman days and it's difficult to imagine him involved, but clearly he was involved in some way :dozey:

[MrJan]

Holy ****!! Didn't see that one coming, fair play to the team for standing up and actually making a bold choice.

[Robinho]

Renault "accept Guilt", Flav and Pat Symonds leave - expect Pat to fully implicate Flav at the WMSC hearing, Flav to take the liketime ban and Symonds to escape the ban due to immunity and crop up at hmm, lets say New Lotus with Mike Gascoyne?

as for Piquet, he is massivley tarnished, but (and its a big Butt) with the potential for 28 cars on the grid, a fat sponsors cheque and some F1 experience, Picquet may not be so out of it, could see him picking up a drive for a while with one of the new teams, purely as there are not many other options of drivers who have raced for winning teams available - if nothing else he'll be a barometer for new drivers in the team

[BeansBeansBeans]

Holy ****!! Didn't see that one coming, fair play to the team for standing up and actually making a bold choice.

I hate to be cynical but Renault have let them go in the hope that they'll get a much lighter punishment, a la 'lie-gate'.

[harsha]

agree with BeansX3 for this one,

def a damage control procedure by Renault

but....it's brilliant to see the back of Sleazy....is that the silver lining :p :

and one more thing,I wouldn't believe that Alonso wouldn't have knowledge of this before....he must have known about this...something like this can't be kept from another member of the team.

[Valve Bounce]

Last time McLaren just threw Dave Ryan under the bus. That's what Renault will probably do.

You think Renault will throw Dave Ryan under a bus? Why?? :confused:

[ArrowsFA1]

You think Renault will throw Dave Ryan under a bus? Why?? :confused:
:laugh:

[CNR]

Briatore quits Renault as team decides 'not to dispute' fixing ... (http://www.zeenews.com/news563991.html)

A:
A:
A:

so i guess they will be out of the hands of Singapore police

[MrJan]

I hate to be cynical but Renault have let them go in the hope that they'll get a much lighter punishment, a la 'lie-gate'.

All the same it's a fairly big move

[SGWilko]

Blimey indeed, and may I add a blummin' 'eck!!! :eek:

So have they been pushed out so that Renault avoids any more negative publicity? Did one or both of them initiate the "race fix" idea? What of Piquet - does this do anything to help him? What happens to Briatore's legal action?

I care little for Briatore, but Pat Symonds? He's been around since the Toleman days and it's difficult to imagine him involved, but clearly he was involved in some way :dozey:

And a 'Chuffin' Nora' from me please..... :eek:

[Buzz Lightyear]

Both Britore and Symonds are gone!

[Ranger]

Thats a very good question.. They don't come much more experienced than Pat Symonds and I can imagine he'll be a difficult guy to replace. Flav on the other hand is a great politics man and you can always garrantee the team will get coverage (although his latest stunt a little negative), but he is more replaceable IMO... I think Renault may very soon be announcing their intentions for next year.. Not participating that is... :)

Neither Briatore nor Symonds will be easy to replace.

They were both #1 and #2 in charge at Benetton/Renault when they won 4 titles over the past 15 years, brilliant acheivements considering the much larger budgets at Williams, Ferrari and McLaren at different stages during that time.

[SGWilko]

Neither Briatore nor Symonds will be easy to replace.

They were both #1 and #2 in charge at Benetton/Renault when they won 4 titles over the past 15 years, brilliant acheivements considering the much larger budgets at Williams, Ferrari and McLaren at different stages during that time.

Now, the problem the FIA face is as follows;

Who was responsible - Flavio, Piquet(s) or Pat?

I like to think Pat was acting under orders - and I understand that this does not excuse him - but I would find it easier to swallow if he was not the instigator.

Now, is it coincidence that Renault/Benetton have previous form - launch control that wasnt used but there nonetheless, fuel filters removed to increase flow, and now this....

Is there a common denomenator? Both Flavio and Pat were there at the time.

Also, was Alonso aware in respect of Singapore? Are we really expected to believe a driver of his undesputed calibre would not question not only such a light fuel load, but a pit stop two laps early????

I reckon DI Frost would have trouble working this one out, even with the help of Terry Reed!!!

[jas123f1]

Is there some who believe that Alonso didn't know of this? I don't think that's possible – and his tactic tells that he did know. He had very early pit stop and it’s not normally if you start that long back on the greed.

The question is now - what happens with him, I can not think that Alonso’s part of this mess will not come out - soon or later - and better soon and later. :s

[ArrowsFA1]

I wonder what will happen with the WMSC hearing now. Will it still go ahead as planned?

[harsha]

I def don't think Piquet ... a rookie, would ever suggest to Flavio and Pat,that he should be allowed to crash.....

[SGWilko]

Another VERY valid point is this;

Massa lost the title last year by a gnats chuff. We have to take account of the botched traffic light pit release system, but, without the SC etc, would the Ferrari crew have been more relaxed?

Given Massa's current situation, his career could - and I so hope not - be destined to 'go for a Burton' if he is not the man he was.

He lost therefore theoretically his only realistic chance of becoming WDC...

All theoretical of course, but one man's greed has lost another man's well deserved reward.

And I am not taking anything away from Lewis here either.

[SGWilko]

I def don't think Piquet ... a rookie, would ever suggest to Flavio and Pat,that he should be allowed to crash.....

Only one Piquet is a rookie remember.....

[SGWilko]

Interesting last paragraph on James Allen's blog;

With Briatore and McLaren’s Ron Dennis having now departed the scene in similar circumstances, there is only Sir Frank Williams of F1’s original big beasts, left in the sport. He has played a different game from his peers in recent years, sided with the FIA over the breakaway and not been a leading rebel in the FOTA breakaway.

What could Max do anyway, push Frank down a set of stadium steps a la OJ in Naked Gun? :D

[Mark]

Blimey. I'd expected Renault to plead some mitigation, they'd get a hefty find that would be that, not this!

Renault's future in F1 must be quite shaky now :s

[Robinho]

Another VERY valid point is this;

Massa lost the title last year by a gnats chuff. We have to take account of the botched traffic light pit release system, but, without the SC etc, would the Ferrari crew have been more relaxed?

Given Massa's current situation, his career could - and I so hope not - be destined to 'go for a Burton' if he is not the man he was.

He lost therefore theoretically his only realistic chance of becoming WDC...

All theoretical of course, but one man's greed has lost another man's well deserved reward.

And I am not taking anything away from Lewis here either.


going on that logic, Lewis could/should have scored 2 more points if Alonso had not won, and all F1 pitstops ar critical and pressured, so i doubt there would have been much change there. so you could argue that Lewis should have had 2 additional points (without the safety car Nico would not have been in front either and arguably thats a 4 point increase)

to many ifs and buts to work out what potentially could have changed in the result from a diffewrent course of action. if we open up that we may as well try to work out the alterntioves from all oft he stewards decisions (drive throughs etc) and any pit/driver mistakes from Ferrari, McLaren, or anyone else who finished ahead of either massa or hamilton last year.

[Robinho]

Blimey. I'd expected Renault to plead some mitigation, they'd get a hefty find that would be that, not this!

Renault's future in F1 must be quite shaky now :s


i'd read all this as a sign of Renaults desire to stayu in the sport - if they were not that bothered why would they ship out Symonds and Flav. they can only hope that the act will add leniency to the WSMC decision. they can only have assumed that the evidence was too damning, or knew/found out that they were guilty and chose to come clean before making it worse by fighting.

brave move, but i think it will signal the continued existence of the Renault F1 team, rather than the ending of it.

if they do go there will be a lot of talented folks filling positions with Manor and Lotus very quickly

[Knock-on]

Is this a shoe in for Dave Richards or Prost?

[Dave B]

Shocking but inevitable: Renault had to so something to minimise their punishment. A fine on the scale of McLaren's, or a ban, would almost certainly see the board pull out of F1 altogether.

This is simply damage limitation, it doesn't change the fact that they're not contesting the charges. I hope Briatore never sets foot in a race paddock again.

[SGWilko]

Is this a shoe in for Dave Richards or Prost?

Would Prost want to go through all that again? Dave Richards, hmmmm, isn't he Prodrive/Aston contracted?

[SGWilko]

Shocking but inevitable: Renault had to so something to minimise their punishment. A fine on the scale of McLaren's, or a ban, would almost certainly see the board pull out of F1 altogether.

This is simply damage limitation, it doesn't change the fact that they're not contesting the charges. I hope Briatore never sets foot in a race paddock again.

OK, sooooooo, is Alonso tainted goods now?

[Daniel]

Can the thread title be changed to show that they were fired and didn't resign? It's the truth after all.

[Dave B]

OK, sooooooo, is Alonso tainted goods now?
Now? He always was - unsporting and petulant, and prone to hissy-fits if he's not the clear number one. However, he's one of the very best drivers in the sport so still has a phenomenal value to any team considering him. If I were courting him I'd be thinking that the price has just come down a few million.

That's assuming, of course, that he knew nothing about this plot...

[Powered by Cosworth]

If Renault wanted to distance themselves from Flav and Pat and publicly dismiss them, a'la McLaren/Dave Ryan, rather than letting them resign of their own accord?

[Dave B]

Can the thread title be changed to show that they were fired and didn't resign? It's the truth after all.
Were they though? The Renault statement only says that they've parted company.

It's like the old Yes Minister scenario: the Prime Minister accepts your resignation. What resignation? The one you're about to write.

[Daniel]

When someone asks you to resign they're firing you. It's like Pino saying don't post ever again or I'll ban you. 6 of one half a dozen of the other. Flab and Pat got fired. Good and proper

[Daniel]

Exactly. So they were fired :) If the official line was that they've chosen to leave F1 and pursue careers on Broadway it would still mean that they were fired.

[Dave B]

When someone asks you to resign they're firing you. It's like Pino saying don't post ever again or I'll ban you. 6 of one half a dozen of the other. Flab and Pat got fired. Good and proper
That's certainly true, but if Flavio resigned then the truther is that Flavio resigned. Publicly saying that he got fired is a surefire way of being on the wrong end of one of him "criminal proceedings" - which, incidentally, I assume he now intends to drop.

[Daniel]

Of course but let's not have the wool pulled over our eyes and see this as anything other than two very guilty men being fired regardless of whether it's dressed up as resignation or whatever.

[MrJan]

Is there some who believe that Alonso didn't know of this? I don't think that's possible – and his tactic tells that he did know. He had very early pit stop and it’s not normally if you start that long back on the greed.

I'm sure he'd argue that Singapore isn't a normal track either and the chances of a SC period were so great that his strategy made sense.

[DexDexter]

I wonder what will happen with the WMSC hearing now. Will it still go ahead as planned?

That's going to be very interesting. Since Flav and Symonds were the main culprits and now they are gone, what are the grounds to prosecute the whole Renault F1 organisation if there is no proof of other people being involved?

[John Glimmerveen]

In my wildest dreams I cannot think of a single reason why Flavio, Symonds and Piquet Jr. thought they could get away with this. (My article: http://formula-1.suite101.com/article.cfm/renault_piquet_jr_symonds_and_briatore)

Is there any other option for the FIA but to exclude all of them?

[maximilian]

Evidently, they had a better than pretty good chance of getting away with it, hadn't the disgruntled Piquet spilled the beans on the whole scheme...

[ST205GT4]

I'm still convinced alonso must have known what was going on.Seems to be no mention of him though.

[Daniel]

DexDexter. Remember Spygate? Cheat as a team and get punished as a team.

[Easy Drifter]

With the two of them gone who is going to testify except Nelson?
They now have no reason to appear and the FIA have no legal authority to make them. I would expect both are finished in motorsport and I would expect very wealthy although Flav sure appears to spend a lot.
Maybe Flav will run for Pres. of the FIA now!!!!!!!!!! :D :eek:

[harsha]

If Rakka is not bought out of the ferrari contract,and Massa gets to full fitness next year...HORRORS ! ,We might well see Nando driving a Toyota,Williams :P

[N. Jones]

Wow....I guess it is hard to defend Renault now once they let Briatore & Symonds go. I really thought this was a disgruntled employee but it looks like he is telling the truth, especially if the Renault team says they are not going to dispute the charges (although that does not mean they are admitting guilt).

I guess this is the end of the RenaultF1 team, and with it the worries and questions about a 28-car grid?

[harsha]

Wow....I guess it is hard to defend Renault now once they let Briatore & Symonds go. I really thought this was a disgruntled employee but it looks like he is telling the truth, especially if the Renault team says they are not going to dispute the charges (although that does not mean they are admitting guilt).

I guess this is the end of the RenaultF1 team, and with it the worries and questions about a 28-car grid?


The Renault team not disputing the charges is as good as admitting guilt.

[nigelred5]

Well, there's your spot for Sauber to get back into the line up. Would Renault continue as an engine supplier?

[ioan]

Blimey. I'd expected Renault to plead some mitigation, they'd get a hefty find that would be that, not this!

I bet that kicking Flab and Pat out of the team was very very cheap compared to paying, let's say, a €100 million fine in these financially difficult times.


Renault's future in F1 must be quite shaky now :s

I guess will know about this soon.

[Daniel]

Why would they dispute the charges if there is no doubt

[ioan]

going on that logic, Lewis could/should have scored 2 more points if Alonso had not won, and all F1 pitstops ar critical and pressured, so i doubt there would have been much change there. so you could argue that Lewis should have had 2 additional points (without the safety car Nico would not have been in front either and arguably thats a 4 point increase)

to many ifs and buts to work out what potentially could have changed in the result from a diffewrent course of action. if we open up that we may as well try to work out the alterntioves from all oft he stewards decisions (drive throughs etc) and any pit/driver mistakes from Ferrari, McLaren, or anyone else who finished ahead of either massa or hamilton last year.

In order to put all IFs to rest the easiest thing to do would be to declare the Singapore GP results void because the result was fixed and thus not legitimate.

[ioan]

i'd read all this as a sign of Renaults desire to stayu in the sport - if they were not that bothered why would they ship out Symonds and Flav.

They have an image to protect, and they wouldn't want to be seen as cheaters, so throwing the 2 of them out sends out the right message: 'Renault does not tolerate crooks because we are an honest organization.'

[ioan]

Is this a shoe in for Dave Richards or Prost?

Probably, there as an article a few days ago saying that they are likely to take Flav's position at Renault F1.

[F1boat]

In my opinion Renault with escape big punishment after this. But about Singapore GP, I doubt that the results will be touched - what happened, happened and I doubt that it is possible to change results in a race from finished championship. It will be a bad PR in a situation, which is already bad enough. With Flav and Symonds gone, the story should be over...

[ioan]

Publicly saying that he got fired is a surefire way of being on the wrong end of one of him "criminal proceedings" - which, incidentally, I assume he now intends to drop.

I suppose that even if he doesn't drop them the French authorities will do that anyway and he might also get some slack for misleading them.

[ioan]

In my wildest dreams I cannot think of a single reason why Flavio, Symonds and Piquet Jr. thought they could get away with this. (My article: http://formula-1.suite101.com/article.cfm/renault_piquet_jr_symonds_and_briatore)

Is there any other option for the FIA but to exclude all of them?

No, Piquet Jr and Symonds were already granted immunity if they say the truth.

[Daniel]

In order to put all IFs to rest the easiest thing to do would be to declare the Singapore GP results void because the result was fixed and thus not legitimate.
Yes but the results have to stand. If the results were declared null and void at the time then people would have raced differently in the subsequent races. The results stand and Lewis is champion no matter how much I wish it could be different. Lewis shouldn't pay for something that wasn't his doing or even his teams doing.

[christophulus]

Wow, genuinely didn't see that coming. On the plus side, this must mean that Renault want to stay in F1. I'm sure there's going to be an enormous punishment now but no bans.

[Knock-on]

In order to put all IFs to rest the easiest thing to do would be to declare the Singapore GP results void because the result was fixed and thus not legitimate.

Can't do it once a result has been declared.

It would have had to be questioned and investigated at the time. If they annulled the result, who knows what would have happened with other races if drivers positions were altered.

[ioan]

... especially if the Renault team says they are not going to dispute the charges (although that does not mean they are admitting guilt).

Please explain how is that not admitting guilt.

[N. Jones]

Because the burden of proof is on the prosecution. The defendant doesn't have to open his/her mouth.

[ioan]

Yes but the results have to stand.

Even if they are fixed?
That's a strange way of thinking.

[ioan]

Because the burden of proof is on the prosecution. The defendant doesn't have to open his/her mouth.

If you were found guilty but you know you aren't guilty than you would certainly will have a go at disputing the verdict and try to restore your image and even freedom in some cases.
Not doing so means you agree with the accusation and you are guilty beyond doubt.

[ioan]

Can't do it once a result has been declared.

It would have had to be questioned and investigated at the time. If they annulled the result, who knows what would have happened with other races if drivers positions were altered.

What other races and what driver positions were altered?
Maybe you should let the FIA know if you have some knowledge about such! :p

What if all those people who lost money because the results were fixed are going to sue the FIA and have judge grant a change of the results?!

[ArrowsFA1]

It's interesting to read the Renault team comments after the GP in question:


Fernando Alonso - 1st: "This is a fantastic result - my first podium of the season; my first victory and I'm very happy, although I think it will take several days for me to realise what we have achieved. Wining a Grand Prix here just seemed to be impossible because we missed our chance yesterday in qualifying, but we were very fortunate today and it's a superb result for the team. We chose a very aggressive strategy and we had a bit of luck, but we had the pace and the car was fantastic throughout the weekend."
Nelson Piquet - DNF: "From the start of the race things were complicated and I had a lot of graining and the situation got worse and worse. The team asked me to push, which I tried to do and finally I lost the rear of my car. I hit the wall heavily but I'm ok. I am disappointed with my race but obviously very happy for the team this evening."
Flavio Briatore, Managing Director ING Renault F1 Team: "This is an amazing victory for Renault and for Fernando. Since Friday we knew that the car was very competitive and we were very disappointed at the end of qualifying. Today the car was extremely quick, stronger than the Ferrari and McLaren, and although we had some luck when the safety car came out, we deserved this victory. It's a very important result for Renault after two difficult seasons and helps us prepare for 2009 in the best way possible."
Pat Symonds, Executive Director of Engineering: "I think the luck we had in the early part of the race was nearly a cancellation of the bad luck we had yesterday. The car has proven itself and so has Fernando. The whole result is a tribute to the team and this wonderful circuit is a tribute to Singapore!"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70993

Particularly Briatore's comment that "It's a very important result for Renault after two difficult seasons." I wonder how much pressure was on the team from the Renault board to produce results, and whether that influenced things at all.

All seen with the benefit of hindsight of course...

[Roamy]

Good for Flavio and Pat ---- Bravo Bravo
Hopefully all the people at Renault will keep their jobs. Flavio and Pat have enough money and they can pursue the Piquets outside of F1. I assume flavio and Pat will get a lifetime ban which is not a big deal now.

[Daniel]

Even if they are fixed?
That's a strange way of thinking.
Perhaps Alonso should be taken out of the results but no one else should gain any points from it.

[Roamy]

Alonso just needs to hope he doesn't get implicated!! Screw the point - give them back

[harsha]

now are people gonna investigate Lewis's last gasp pass over Vettel :p :

[ioan]

Perhaps Alonso should be taken out of the results but no one else should gain any points from it.

Sure.
What about Kubica being handed a penalty because of the SC?
What about all the drivers who had to queue behind their team mates during the pit stop frenzy provoked by a deliberate race fixing move?
Pretty much everyone's race was affected by a premeditated criminal offense that and huge amounts of money were lost by people who did bet on that race as I'm pretty sure not many of them bet on Alonso who was starting 15th and on fumes.

[ioan]

now are people gonna investigate Lewis's last gasp pass over Vettel :p :

You mean over Glock. I know Lewsi would have loved to be able to pass Vettel but he just wasn't good enough to do it.

[Daniel]

Sure.
What about Kubica being handed a penalty because of the SC?
What about all the drivers who had to queue behind their team mates during the pit stop frenzy provoked by a deliberate race fixing move?
Pretty much everyone's race was affected by a premeditated criminal offense that and huge amounts of money were lost by people who did bet on that race as I'm pretty sure not many of them bet on Alonso who was starting 15th and on fumes.
Well I'm of the opinion that Flabio should be charged with race fixing. But I think it would be unfair to change the results so significantly now.

[ArrowsFA1]

Alonso just needs to hope he doesn't get implicated!!
I've just been reading Tony Dodgin's column on Autosport and he tells of Alonso's Thursday press session where (obviously) he was asked about events surrounding the team.

Understandably Alonso did not want to get drawn into discussing it, but the press pushed until the Renault PR person present intervened and said "he cannot say...because he has received notice not to speak and this doesn't come from the team, it comes from above".

Whoever "above" is, it's another detail from 'behind the scenes' that makes you wonder what goes on in F1 sometimes :crazy:

[F1boat]

Hem, hem...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78483

"Mosley confirmed that the most severe penalty of total exclusion from the world championship was a possibility if Renault was found guilty, and he clarified that it was now too late for the result of last year's Singapore Grand Prix or world championship to be changed."

So no WDC for Massa or any changes in the WDC a year after the end of the championship.

[Knock-on]

I see no benefit in speculating whether Alonso knew. There is no suggestion he did and although he might have questioned how he ended up winning, he cannot be implicated on the basis that "he must have known" or "it was obvious".

There was only 1 driver here responsible for the crash and he wants to get the fcuk out of this country and go back to the US IMHO.

[ioan]

Well I'm of the opinion that Flabio should be charged with race fixing. But I think it would be unfair to change the results so significantly now.

I suppose you are right.
He should have to pay back all the financial loses for those who lost because of his actions.

[ioan]

Whoever "above" is, it's another detail from 'behind the scenes' that makes you wonder what goes on in F1 sometimes :crazy:

I tell you a secret, his name is Carlos Ghosn. ;)

[rabf1]

I think that it is kind of bs for a driver, after he gets released, to then say this and that happened last year. He said the crash was an accident at the time. He shouldnt get to change his story now.

There have been a number of great drivers who have intentionally crashed in an effort to effect the outcome of a race (Schumacher, Senna). And they crashed into other cars. That seems worse to me than a guy driving into a guardrail on purpose.

[Valve Bounce]

Not doing so means you agree with the accusation and you are guilty beyond doubt.

Not really, the burden of proof is still on the prosecution.

However, we do have Jr to provide that, don't we.

[SGWilko]

The Renault team not disputing the charges is as good as admitting guilt.

Is it though. I think it is Renault officially saying 'fair cop guys, it looks like the F1 management have been naughty, of which we had no knowledge. The evidence is clear, and we do not intend to dispute.

[Daniel]

I suppose you are right.
He should have to pay back all the financial loses for those who lost because of his actions.
No, he should be forced to drop the soap in a showeroom full of STD infected inmates.

[Roamy]

Hem, hem...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78483

"Mosley confirmed that the most severe penalty of total exclusion from the world championship was a possibility if Renault was found guilty, and he clarified that it was now too late for the result of last year's Singapore Grand Prix or world championship to be changed."

So no WDC for Massa or any changes in the WDC a year after the end of the championship.

So are you saying that Piquet screwed Massa out of the championship?????

[N. Jones]

Sadly in this day and age it is believe that when the accused does not put up a defense it is as good and admitting guilt....

Better to own up and say we did it then to forever cast doubt upon yourself, if that is what Renault are doing...

[Roamy]

Also has anyone considered the Flavio and Symonds stepped down to protect the workers future at Renault???

Yea I didn't think so. :)

[grantb4]

I think that it is kind of bs for a driver, after he gets released, to then say this and that happened last year. He said the crash was an accident at the time. He shouldnt get to change his story now.

There have been a number of great drivers who have intentionally crashed in an effort to effect the OUTCOME OF A RACE (Schumacher, Senna). And they crashed into other cars. That seems worse to me than a guy driving into a guardrail on purpose.

Outcome of a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. (Sorry, I don't know how to bold stuff).

[Knock-on]

Also has anyone considered the Flavio and Symonds stepped down to protect the workers future at Renault???

Yea I didn't think so. :)

ROTFLMFAO :laugh:

I just snorted Tea reading that.

Bad Uncs. Bad!!!

[Somebody]

Some relevant thoughts from Joe Saward: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/renault-axes-briatore-and-symonds/

I wonder if Symonds took the immunity deal in time...

[Giuseppe F1]

A couple of points re: Briatore have just come to mind:

1) What happens to his football involvement with Bernie Ecclestone with the English club, Queens Park Rangers? Surely the English FA wont want or wont allow such a senior figure who will seemingly be convicted of cheating in a major sporting event/championship to be active in their championship.

2) Briatore's driver management programmes/deals are well reknowned in F1/motorsport circles.....what happens to all those guys??

[truefan72]

absolutely stunning.

I beleive Renault want to stray in F1 and made a decision accordingly.
It is akin to the spygate saga. Admit guilt and move on in a no-win situation.
I'm pretty sure Flav and symonds will continue tiehr pursuit of the piquets and this is not the end of the matter.

As to NPJr, he is toast. As he will not get employed by any team, and will most likely receive some sort of lengthy ban as well. That's why the whole thing is a schamm from the start. giving immunity to the driver is like giving immunity to the killer. no matter who ordered the hit or the circumstance.

[truefan72]

Some relevant thoughts from Joe Saward: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/renault-axes-briatore-and-symonds/

I wonder if Symonds took the immunity deal in time...

i hear what he is saying, but F1 results since MM has been in charge have always been subject to controversy with strange decisions by the stewards affecting results many times over. So to me I race situation with Renault is nothing compared to years of McLaren bias, or Ferrari favoritism or dubious decisions by the FIa that have caused plenty of issues for so called betting folks, teams, drivers and fans alike.

[ioan]

absolutely stunning.

Not at all. Many people around here saw it like this for weeks now.



I'm pretty sure Flav and symonds will continue tiehr pursuit of the piquets and this is not the end of the matter.

How?
What happened today proves that Piquet was right and that Flavio's word is not worth a dime. The French prosecution will not even pick up the case IMO.



As to NPJr, he is toast. As he will not get employed by any team, and will most likely receive some sort of lengthy ban as well.

Not at all he's got immunity from the FIA, the way Alonso, Lewis and Pedro got it 2 years ago.
And don't forget that he would still be a very very rich toast anyway. :D

I know you're sour over having Alonso's Singapore win turned into a cheating parade, but hey life's not easy and even the most beautiful roses have thorns. :p

[ioan]

i hear what he is saying, but F1 results since MM has been in charge have always been subject to controversy with strange decisions by the stewards affecting results many times over.

As it was before Max became president of the FIA.

I wonder what would have Vatanen done? Sweep it under the carpet in a try to improve F1's image? I doubt he would have been up to taking the fight to Flav and Renault like Max did in this case.

[gm99]

I suppose that even if he doesn't drop them the French authorities will do that anyway and he might also get some slack for misleading them.

If Piquet threatened to take the information about Singapore to the FIA unless he got something in return (i.e. staying with Renault), it still is blackmail even if (rather, especially if) the information as such is true.

To give you a better example: If someone tells his neighbor that he would go to the police and tell them the neighbor beats his wife unless the neighbor gave him 1000 $, he committs blackmail even if the neighbor is indeed a wife-beater.

[ioan]

If Piquet threatened to take the information about Singapore to the FIA unless he got something in return (i.e. staying with Renault), it still is blackmail even if (rather, especially if) the information as such is true.

To give you a better example: If someone tells his neighbor that he would go to the police and tell them the neighbor beats his wife unless the neighbor gave him 1000 $, he committs blackmail even if the neighbor is indeed a wife-beater.

As I said in my previous post, it's Piquet's word against sweaty Flab's word. Now sweaty Flab has lied to the FIA and as such his word is already not as credible as Piquet's word. I don't see how the French authorities would go ahead knowing that the plaintiff has already lied once in this affair.

And there is also the small matter of Flav starting legal action only 2 month after the alleged blackmailing occurred and apparently only in an attempt to discredit the Piquets who just gained a lot of credibility.

Flavio has got no case anymore.

[rabf1]

"Now sweaty Flab has lied to the FIA and as such his word is already not as credible as Piquet's word."

Well, PiquetJr did say the crash was an accident at the time. So he is a liar too.

[Knock-on]

As I said in my previous post, it's Piquet's word against sweaty Flab's word. Now sweaty Flab has lied to the FIA and as such his word is already not as credible as Piquet's word. I don't see how the French authorities would go ahead knowing that the plaintiff has already lied once in this affair.

And there is also the small matter of Flav starting legal action only 2 month after the alleged blackmailing occurred and apparently only in an attempt to discredit the Piquets who just gained a lot of credibility.

Flavio has got no case anymore.

Sorry mate but there is no evidence at this point that Flav has lied. I agree with you that it looks very likely he's up to his neck in it but we have to stay with the facts as they are.

Nelson, as Rab says, has admitted his deception.

[rabf1]

What is the evidence that Flav participated in ordering the crash?

[ioan]

Well, PiquetJr did say the crash was an accident at the time. So he is a liar too.

Not a in a written official statement.
You know there is a difference between lying to the press and lying to the authorities.

[ioan]

Sorry mate but there is no evidence at this point that Flav has lied.

Just wait until Monday. ;)

[UltimateDanGTR]

What is the evidence that Flav participated in ordering the crash?

asumming that flav leaving is actually true, which being reported by the beeb looks pretty likely now IMO, then the fact that they resigned says it all. why on earth would they resign if not guilty?

Flav, and maybe symmonds depending on how much he was involved, managed to ruin the reputation of renault F1, damage the car manurfacturers reputation, and ruin all their hard work when Flav and Pat just wanted to win whatever the cost, which they probably wil duly pay now, cheating their way to victory and asking one of their own drivers to risk his own life. Piquet was stupid enough to go through with it as well. well done you three, excellent job :rolleyes:

But i for one, say good riddance Flav, cheating ruthless horrible racist careless barst.....

[ioan]

Sorry but nobody in this has gained any credibility I'm afraid. Piquet may have been telling the truth, but he chose to go along with it and deceive the viewing public which makes him as bad as Flav in all this.

There is a difference between what you tell the viewing public and what you say when questioned by the authorities. An Piquet didn't ly to the authorities unlike Flavio apparently did.

BTW what about what Lewy did in Australia and Malaysia?! Does he have any credibility with you? I'm just curious, you know about what was discussed in the 'Forum protocol' thread. ;)

[Lemmy-Boy]

Love or hate him, before he steps down as the Master of FIA, Max Mosely seems to have gotten the last laugh! In a course of a year, he was able to puppeteer or witness the exit of his arch-enemies from F1 (ie. Ron Dennis & Flavio Briatore).

I wonder who's next on his chopping block? I guess Max is planning one hell of a retirement party. Leather and whips anyone?

[rabf1]

"Piquet didn't ly to the authorities unlike Flavio apparently did"

I believe this is incorrect. He was questioned by the stewards and lied.

[Dave B]

Sorry mate but there is no evidence at this point that Flav has lied.
...yet. :p

[Dave B]

1) What happens to his football involvement with Bernie Ecclestone with the English club, Queens Park Rangers? Surely the English FA wont want or wont allow such a senior figure who will seemingly be convicted of cheating in a major sporting event/championship to be active in their championship.
That's a good point. Do the FA have a "fit and proper" requirement, where a team cannot be owned by anybody who might bring the sport into disrepute? If Flavio is decreed "guilty" by the WMSC hearing, could his other sporting interests be in doubt?

[slinkster]

Wow. I wasn't expecting this today. I thought this would be a long, drawn out affair with nothing being proved... but now this.

I find it pretty deplorable that this has happened in F1.

So when do we find out if Renault will be penalised as a team? Won't they be fined or expelled from the championship?

I've read some of Alonso's comments on the BBC website this afternoon about him being suprised by all this... but somehow I'm struggling to believe that he had no idea. Not impossible... just I'm not convinced yet that he didn't know.

:( I'm pretty shocked, actually, at this whole saga. I didn't think there was anything more than sour grapes, bad management or misunderstanding in all of this. Very disappointed.. and not at all sad to see the back of the "Flab".

[VkmSpouge]

I'm glad Flavio Briatore is gone and I'm sure he'll survive, he still has QPR after all. I wouldn't be surprised that now with the three people involved in this crash plot gone from the team that the punishment will be more lenient

[Dzeidzei]

Love or hate him, before he steps down as the Master of FIA, Max Mosely seems to have gotten the last laugh! In a course of a year, he was able to puppeteer or witness the exit of his arch-enemies from F1 (ie. Ron Dennis & Flavio Briatore).

I wonder who's next on his chopping block? I guess Max is planning one hell of a retirement party. Leather and whips anyone?

Depends on who else Max thinks was behind the Nazi photos. Do you guys think it was Ron? Or Flav? My money would go for Italian mob and a paid job by Flav :)

[ioan]

I believe this is incorrect. He was questioned by the stewards and lied.

Didn't read about him lying to the stewards.
Please give us a link to where you read it.

[Robinho]

A couple of points re: Briatore have just come to mind:

1) What happens to his football involvement with Bernie Ecclestone with the English club, Queens Park Rangers? Surely the English FA wont want or wont allow such a senior figure who will seemingly be convicted of cheating in a major sporting event/championship to be active in their championship.

2) Briatore's driver management programmes/deals are well reknowned in F1/motorsport circles.....what happens to all those guys??

i see your point on the Fotball thing, but if you think the FA, despite their posturing, give a flying fig who is in charge of Football clubs i suggest you read up on Chester City and the Vaughn Family - Flav is a knight in shining armour compared to that lot.

i do think that if Flav receives a ban of any sort from F1 his driver management deals will be included, although he'll skirt round them by offcially resogning from the management of the company that deals with it and manage it from behind the scenes

[ioan]

I didn't yet have time to read them but you'll find the full FIA dossier about the Singapore affair here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1213688/REVEALED-The-dossiers-evidence-going-Nelson-Piquet-crash-gate-hearing.html

Have a good lecture! :)

[keysersoze]

Love or hate him, before he steps down as the Master of FIA, Max Mosely seems to have gotten the last laugh! In a course of a year, he was able to puppeteer or witness the exit of his arch-enemies from F1 (ie. Ron Dennis & Flavio Briatore).

I wonder who's next on his chopping block? I guess Max is planning one hell of a retirement party. Leather and whips anyone?

Dennis and Flavio got what was coming to him, but to praise Max is a bit rich, no?

Whether he was guilty of exhibiting disrespect towards Jews or not, his "activity" was creepy, disgraceful, and perhaps demented. His vote-of-confidence was not an affirmation of his good character, but ONLY a machiavellian (and I might add cowardly) measure taken by the panel.

[veeten]

Sorry but nobody in this has gained any credibility I'm afraid. Piquet may have been telling the truth, but he chose to go along with it and deceive the viewing public which makes him as bad as Flav in all this. Plus he then ratted the team out to the FIA... He's got to be the most unemployable person in motorsport at present along with Flav and Pat. Would you employ a snitch?

Recently a chap at my work was caught doing something he shouldn't have, and was grassed up by a fellow colleague. The result was, both were sacked as one had broken the Health and safety rules and the other was deemed untrustworthy. Nobody likes a snitch.. :p

remember, 'Snitches get stitches...' as they say in the 'hood... ;) :p

[jens]

Well, I for one won't miss Flavio. If Schumacher's Ferrari and Hamilton's McLaren have been accused of favouring one driver, then IMO Briatore's teams have been the worst one-man-teams.

Losing Symonds is a more serious issue. During his long career he managed to build a good reputation as a top specialist in his area - a shame that it got tainted now.

[ioan]

Lewis on the other hand was a dirty little liar himself that weekend in Oz, and well documented by myself and the majority of the forum that what he did was wrong. Snitch he was not I'm afraid, as Mclaren filtered out Ryan who was easily replaceable compared to a recent WDC at the beginning of his career. Lewis then gave a statement written by their press officer which indicated Ryan was mainly at fault. Passing the buck it was indeed, but how do you snitch on your team when your team are giving you the words in which to do it?? Totally different situation. :)

I agree, at least Piquet told the truth in the end I wonder when will Lewis get to that point.

[woody2goody]

I'm glad Flavio Briatore is gone and I'm sure he'll survive, he still has QPR after all. I wouldn't be surprised that now with the three people involved in this crash plot gone from the team that the punishment will be more lenient

Unless Alonso was also involved...

Either he was unaware of their plot or he wasn't.

If he did know anything about it then he didn't care when he took the chequered flag.

Of course that wouldn't mean that Fernando himself was cheating or fixing races, but it would mean that he is directly related to it. If the team did all this behind Alonso's back, then he should leave (if he isn't already).

As for Massa, well it's up to him as to whether he wants to sue Fattio.

See you in a couple of weeks guys.

[rabf1]

I read the "dossier" papers in the link posted above. The stewards report says that they were unable to say that Flav new about the plan.

[Wasted Talent]

A couple of points re: Briatore have just come to mind:

1) What happens to his football involvement with Bernie Ecclestone with the English club, Queens Park Rangers? Surely the English FA wont want or wont allow such a senior figure who will seemingly be convicted of cheating in a major sporting event/championship to be active in their championship.


...because all the other owners are fine upstanding gentlemen....????

WT

[grantb4]

Depends on who else Max thinks was behind the Nazi photos. Do you guys think it was Ron? Or Flav? My money would go for Italian mob and a paid job by Flav :)

That's an interesting question!

[Saint Devote]

Formula 1 has lost. It has always been great to have Briatore around and he made both the Bennetton and Renault team what they were. A great atmosphere with rock music and fun yet still able to get on with the task.

People have gotten too crazy about this issue. After all it was no more serious than Michael Schumacher ramming into Damon Hill or trying to do the same to Jacques Villeneuve.

And which racing team has never tried to bend the rules to breaking point or in years gone by when tv was not so intrusive sort of "knocked" into a another driver on the back end of a circuit?

And what occurrs in Vegas stays in Vegas - a previous season's issues should remain closed but instead we have this typical nanny state investigation ready to blow up.

And Nelson Piquet - if ever there was a spoilt little bitch that should never be given the chance to sit in a f1 racing car again, then he is the bitch.

I wish Flavio and Symonds well. Their record of achievement and the enjoyment they have provided fans over the years far outweighs this overblown saga.

The Renault company panicked and in doing so it has destroyed the structure of a race winning and championship able team.

I see absolutely no reason now for Alonso to remain at Renault and predict that they will likely become also-rans unless they can hire someone like Dave Richards of Pro-Drive.

[CNR]

http://i31.tinypic.com/28vd7x5.jpg

[ioan]

Formula 1 has lost. It has always been great to have Briatore around and he made both the Bennetton and Renault team what they were. A great atmosphere with rock music and fun yet still able to get on with the task.

People have gotten too crazy about this issue. After all it was no more serious than Michael Schumacher ramming into Damon Hill or trying to do the same to Jacques Villeneuve.

And which racing team has never tried to bend the rules to breaking point or in years gone by when tv was not so intrusive sort of "knocked" into a another driver on the back end of a circuit?

And what occurrs in Vegas stays in Vegas - a previous season's issues should remain closed but instead we have this typical nanny state investigation ready to blow up.

And Nelson Piquet - if ever there was a spoilt little bitch that should never be given the chance to sit in a f1 racing car again, then he is the bitch.

I wish Flavio and Symonds well. Their record of achievement and the enjoyment they have provided fans over the years far outweighs this overblown saga.

:rotflmao:

[Lemmy-Boy]

Dennis and Flavio got what was coming to him, but to praise Max is a bit rich, no?

Whether he was guilty of exhibiting disrespect towards Jews or not, his "activity" was creepy, disgraceful, and perhaps demented. His vote-of-confidence was not an affirmation of his good character, but ONLY a machiavellian (and I might add cowardly) measure taken by the panel.

Get a grip on reality. It's not about praising the son of a Nazi-Fascist sympathizer. What Mosely has done is no different from the Machiavellian instincts or actions found in the boardroom of FORTUNE 500 companies.

F1 has a history full of shady, cut-throat individuals. Even to this day nothing has changed in the dog-eat-dog world that surrounds F1. The soap operas will continue, whether you like it or not.

After all, many of these car-nazi's (manufacturers in F1) have performed atrocities that's well beyond the scope of Nazi Germany. In the past (and even today) many of them have sold death boxes (cars) with crappy engineering or lackluster safety standards. All in the name of the mighty dollar but at a cost of millions of lives on the road.

[edv]

An appearance was made today at the Renault F1 Team facility at Enstone by Dave Richards, according to SPEEDTV http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-richards-preparing-to-take-over-renault/

[Valve Bounce]

Formula 1 has lost. It has always been great to have Briatore around and he made both the Bennetton and Renault team what they were. A great atmosphere with rock music and fun yet still able to get on with the task.

People have gotten too crazy about this issue. After all it was no more serious than Michael Schumacher ramming into Damon Hill or trying to do the same to Jacques Villeneuve.

And which racing team has never tried to bend the rules to breaking point or in years gone by when tv was not so intrusive sort of "knocked" into a another driver on the back end of a circuit?

And what occurrs in Vegas stays in Vegas - a previous season's issues should remain closed but instead we have this typical nanny state investigation ready to blow up.

And Nelson Piquet - if ever there was a spoilt little bitch that should never be given the chance to sit in a f1 racing car again, then he is the bitch.

I wish Flavio and Symonds well. Their record of achievement and the enjoyment they have provided fans over the years far outweighs this overblown saga.

The Renault company panicked and in doing so it has destroyed the structure of a race winning and championship able team.

I see absolutely no reason now for Alonso to remain at Renault and predict that they will likely become also-rans unless they can hire someone like Dave Richards of Pro-Drive.

:rotflmao: :p : :rotflmao:

[Saint Devote]

The activities of Max Mosely's father have nothing to do with his son. While the sexual proclivities of Max Mosely may be less than orthodox, he also has done far more for being in f1 than not.

Do not be hypocrites and judge these men on the one issue where their judgement [and the Renault issue is still hearsay] may have been weak.

But I guess it is easy to point fingers sitting safe behind a computer and never having to make judgements of signficant consequence.

[Valve Bounce]

The activities of Max Mosely's father have nothing to do with his son. While the sexual proclivities of Max Mosely may be less than orthodox, he also has done far more for being in f1 than not.

Do not be hypocrites and judge these men on the one issue where their judgement [and the Renault issue is still hearsay] may have been weak.

But I guess it is easy to point fingers sitting safe behind a computer and never having to make judgements of signficant consequence.

Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. :(

[rabf1]

If you read the materials (link was posted above) flavio comes across as a p.o.s scumbag. He offers no meaningful input on the race radio. He just makes some disrespectful comments. Thats his contribution. If I owned the team and read these materials I would can him too, whether he knew about the cheating conspiracy or not.

[V12]

In one way, I'm glad to see the back of Flavio, since his insistence that in his mind brainless so-called entertainment mattered more than the technical side and could have ruined the sport had he managed to get more involved - stick to selling clothes and running your underachieving 2nd division football team (no offence to any genuine QPR fans out there!)

Still, he's been a fixture since I started watching in the early 90s so it seems a bit weird.

OK, I'm going to ask this, and I don't have time to read through all 30-odd pages so apologies if this has already been brought up, but who exactly is in charge of the Renault F1 team now, even if just for four races?

[Saint Devote]

In one way, I'm glad to see the back of Flavio, since his insistence that in his mind brainless so-called entertainment mattered more than the technical side and could have ruined the sport had he managed to get more involved - stick to selling clothes and running your underachieving 2nd division football team (no offence to any genuine QPR fans out there!)

Still, he's been a fixture since I started watching in the early 90s so it seems a bit weird.

OK, I'm going to ask this, and I don't have time to read through all 30-odd pages so apologies if this has already been brought up, but who exactly is in charge of the Renault F1 team now, even if just for four races?

Aside from Williams-Head, Briatore is the most successful team principle out there. It is not accidental that he signed Schumacher and Alonso and managed the team to where both drivers won consecutive world titles apiece.

This is a man you deride?

I urge you to look at the facts and reconsider your position.

What does the technical side bring to f1 on its own? Nothing. Whether the cars have carbon fibre brake discs or steel ones is immaterial to fans that care about the racing on the track - for example.

And it is not accidental that today di Montezemolo has sounded a warning about declining interest in f1 as represented this year in spectator interest. That it took an aging injured ex-world champion's potential retun to raise excitement is an indictment of the current state of affairs.

Yes, Briatore is not a technical person but he brought a different perspective to f1 and his ideas were acted upon to the degree that he was the leader in and of FOTA and its break-away series position.

Do not dismiss Briatore lightly - the sport has lost a very valuable contributor and all the silly celebration that is being exhibited on these message boards over it is misguided.

Of course the resentment may be caused by jealously because he will likely retire to his island with his extremely beautiful wife and family and continue to run his exclusive billionaires club - amongst his members being JayZee.

Nothing like success to raise resentment :s mokin:

On the other hand unless the FIA does something stupid like ban him for life, if I were a new team I would try and hire him as team principle - lets see: Adrian Campos or Flavio Briatore as manager...... duh!!!

[Valve Bounce]

If you read the materials (link was posted above) flavio comes across as a p.o.s scumbag. He offers no meaningful input on the race radio. He just makes some disrespectful comments. Thats his contribution. If I owned the team and read these materials I would can him too, whether he knew about the cheating conspiracy or not.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo You naughty, naughty man!! what a thing to say! What a terrible thing to say!! :eek:

And just when we were going to forward his name to the Vatican so he can be canonized!! :(

[Valve Bounce]

This is a man you deride?

I urge you to look at the facts and reconsider your position.



Yes, Briatore is not a technical person but he brought a different perspective to f1 and his ideas were acted upon to the degree that he was the leader in and of FOTA and its break-away series position.

... duh!!!

Flav is a cheating conniving lying scumbag. He is departing Renault because he was involved in the fixing of a race, and he deserves to be in jail in Singapore. He has brought shame to the competition of F1. And he has disgraced the name of Renault.

And his attack on the private life of Nelson Piquet Jr just about sums up what a sleaze he is.

Good riddance!!

[keysersoze]

Get a grip on reality. It's not about praising the son of a Nazi-Fascist sympathizer. What Mosely has done is no different from the Machiavellian instincts or actions found in the boardroom of FORTUNE 500 companies.

F1 has a history full of shady, cut-throat individuals. Even to this day nothing has changed in the dog-eat-dog world that surrounds F1. The soap operas will continue, whether you like it or not.

After all, many of these car-nazi's (manufacturers in F1) have performed atrocities that's well beyond the scope of Nazi Germany. In the past (and even today) many of them have sold death boxes (cars) with crappy engineering or lackluster safety standards. All in the name of the mighty dollar but at a cost of millions of lives on the road.

I don't doubt the realities. I just don't praise them, or give my tacit approval, and I certainly don't feel that Max (of all people) deserves to "enjoy" someone else's demise.

[Saint Devote]

Flav is a cheating conniving lying scumbag. He is departing Renault because he was involved in the fixing of a race, and he deserves to be in jail in Singapore. He has brought shame to the competition of F1. And he has disgraced the name of Renault.

And his attack on the private life of Nelson Piquet Jr just about sums up what a sleaze he is.

Good riddance!!

The private life of Piquet? I didn't read anything. Anyway its rich irony because we all recall the personal attacks by Nelson Piquet [father] on Senna and Mansell.

So you think the Briatore issue [which has still to be proven although you are presuming Briatore's guilt] is that serious you impune the character of Flavio?

Then what do you say about a driver that CRASHES into another competitir deliberately - why was there no investigation. And seeing that the past can be dragged up, why is the team not investigated NOW?

And what about the scandal of Ferrari being the secret partner to making the rules - why is that not a "crime"?

There is a double standard, a standard of subjective guilt that makes the outrage against Flavio akin to the moment in the movie Casablanca, where the Vichy detective is "shocked to discover...."

To the people that attack Flavio and revel in his trouble - their disgusting schadenfreude - I say "je accuse!!, je accuse! You are all hypocrites!

[Valve Bounce]

The private life of Piquet? I didn't read anything. Anyway its rich irony because we all recall the personal attacks by Nelson Piquet [father] on Senna and Mansell.

So you think the Briatore issue [which has still to be proven although you are presuming Briatore's guilt] is that serious you impune the character of Flavio?

Then what do you say about a driver that CRASHES into another competitir deliberately - why was there no investigation. And seeing that the past can be dragged up, why is the team not investigated NOW?

And what about the scandal of Ferrari being the secret partner to making the rules - why is that not a "crime"?

There is a double standard, a standard of subjective guilt that makes the outrage against Flavio akin to the moment in the movie Casablanca, where the Vichy detective is "shocked to discover...."

To the people that attack Flavio and revel in his trouble - their disgusting schadenfreude - I say "je accuse!!, je accuse! You are all hypocrites!

!. In answer to you opening sentence, read the link given in this thread, and where it has been discussed alread, and where most of us called him a sleazy scumbag.

In answer to your second sentence, Yes! [read the questions put to Pat Symonds that he evaded], and Yes! He is a lying, cheating, conniving scumbag!.

In answer to your third and fourth sentences, they have been discussed ad infinitum here long before you blessed us here with your presence.

In answer to your next sentence, this has nothing to do with Humphrey Bogart.

And we all than you for your last paragraph!! and we don't give a shyte!!

[WSRfan82]

fav and sims leaving...to me...says it all...GUILTY!! i know i know NPjr was not the best driver but i don't think the crash was an accident.

fav, pat didn't give NPjr a easy time and then asking him to set up a deliberate crash and then firing him...knowing all this had gone on and expecting NPJr not to say a word...big mistake and are going to pay for it.

[Valve Bounce]

To the people that attack Flavio and revel in his trouble - their disgusting schadenfreude - I say "je accuse!!, je accuse! You are all hypocrites!

At least, you have identified yourself as a worshiper of Sleazy Flav, and that stench will follow you in this forum forever. :eek:

One more thing!! if you are going to say j'accuse!!, j'accuse!, at least get that right :rolleyes:

[harsha]

At least, you have identified yourself as a worshiper of Sleazy Flav, and that stench will follow you in this forum forever. :eek:

One more thing!! if you are going to say j'accuse!!, j'accuse!, at least get that right :rolleyes:

:laugh:

[Daniel]

At least, you have identified yourself as a worshiper of Sleazy Flav, and that stench will follow you in this forum forever. :eek:

One more thing!! if you are going to say j'accuse!!, j'accuse!, at least get that right :rolleyes:
Sacre bleu merde petit dejeuner! :p

[CNR]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/renault-hold-their-hands-up-14495823.html


While questions were asked at the time, the governing body said they could take no action because there had been no complaints or protests over the result. That was also their line when, it is believed, the subject was raised again at last year's season-ending Brazilian Grand Prix.
Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/renault-hold-their-hands-up-14495823.html#ixzz0RKlGF3T2

[Roamy]

valve
I think you hate flav worse than I hate Richards

In flav's favor he did bed Naomi and Heidi

[Mark]

The 2008 drivers championship would not be affected by exclusing Alonso from the results of Singapore. It just means that Hamilton would have won the championship by a bigger margin and we wouldn't have had the last lap thriller last year!

I think an appropriate punishment for Renault is the same one they gave McLaren. A hefty fine and zero points for this years constructors championshop.

[Dave B]

And what occurrs in Vegas stays in Vegas - a previous season's issues should remain closed but instead we have this typical nanny state investigation ready to blow up.
Why do some people seem hell-bent on sweeping cheating under the carpet? Yes it's bad for the sport's image in the short term; but it's only right and proper than wrongdoing is exposed, properly investigated and punished where necessary.

People will always seek to exploit the rules, and to sometimes overstep the mark, but asking a driver to deliberately crash a car and risk the safety of those around him... well that is a new low. Nanny state? This was the most blatent and dangerous attempt at cheating that I've ever encountered in sport.

F1 has to be fair, and what's more it has to be seen to be fair.

[SGWilko]

Flav is a cheating conniving lying scumbag. He is departing Renault because he was involved in the fixing of a race, and he deserves to be in jail in Singapore. He has brought shame to the competition of F1. And he has disgraced the name of Renault.

And his attack on the private life of Nelson Piquet Jr just about sums up what a sleaze he is.

Good riddance!!

Errrrmmmmm, aaaahhhhhhh, didn't NPKSnr publicly accuse Ayrton of being Gay, and didn't he deride 'our Nige's' wife.

You see - what goes around comes around.......

[F1boat]

I think that if Alonso was unaware of the decisions in Renault, his result shouldn't be affected. And by the way, despite everything, I sympathize with Flav more that I do with the horrible Piquet family.

[Knock-on]

Why do some people seem hell-bent on sweeping cheating under the carpet? Yes it's bad for the sport's image in the short term; but it's only right and proper than wrongdoing is exposed, properly investigated and punished where necessary.

People will always seek to exploit the rules, and to sometimes overstep the mark, but asking a driver to deliberately crash a car and risk the safety of those around him... well that is a new low. Nanny state? This was the most blatent and dangerous attempt at cheating that I've ever encountered in sport.

F1 has to be fair, and what's more it has to be seen to be fair.

This is the crux of the matter.

Leaving aside the deliberate crashes of Senna and Schumacher as they are fundementally different (drivers acting on their own volition), I cannot remember another instance of a driver deliberatly crashing to fundementally alter a race to the benefit of his team mate. In fairness, most drivers would stick 2 fingers up at the suggestion.

What has happened was fundemental cheating at it's worse and was right to be fully and openly investigated, not swept under the carpet as some would wish.

[ioan]

The private life of Piquet? I didn't read anything.

Than you should read some more before coming in here and giving your speach from your high horse.

[ioan]

!. In answer to you opening sentence, read the link given in this thread, and where it has been discussed alread, and where most of us called him a sleazy scumbag.

In answer to your second sentence, Yes! [read the questions put to Pat Symonds that he evaded], and Yes! He is a lying, cheating, conniving scumbag!.

In answer to your third and fourth sentences, they have been discussed ad infinitum here long before you blessed us here with your presence.

In answer to your next sentence, this has nothing to do with Humphrey Bogart.

And we all than you for your last paragraph!! and we don't give a shyte!!

Exactly! :up:

[DexDexter]

I'd forgotten about that, but yes he sure did say those things in order to gain a psychological advantage. What a rogue .. :p

Piquets crash in Singapore was dangerous, but I can think of at least 3 other incidents from 1990, 1994, and 1997 where fellow drivers deliberately crashed into oponents in order to fix the race/championship result. These could very well be argued to be as, if not more dangerous as an example IMO.. I suppose the disgusting thing about this latest incident is the fact it was premeditated rather than a split second decision made in the heat of battle. Thats what sets it apart, the deviancy rather than the danger... :)

True, there are number of cases in addition to those, for example Senna, at Estoril 1988, was very very close to putting Prost deliberately in the wall at 300kph. Piquet's crash should indeed be considered in relation to what has happened before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjfwRrvtlNw

[ioan]

Sacre bleu merde petit dejeuner! :p

You're already doing better than Saint Devote! ;)

[SGWilko]

I'd forgotten about that, but yes he sure did say those things in order to gain a psychological advantage. What a rogue .. :p


Fairly benign, isn't it. But you cannot be hypocritical in this game, can you.

My comment was in deirect to the opinion of Valve;


And his attack on the private life of Nelson Piquet Jr just about sums up what a sleaze he is.

So you see, in my book, the Piquets (you'd assume like father, like son) and Flavio appear to be like peas in a pod. Goose, Gander and all that.

Now, if we look back at the stewards enquiry conducted in Spa, I recall a comment where they could not implicate Flavio. So as yet, the only truths - or known knowns if you are across the pond are;

The crash was deliberate.

The Mens Rea was conducted in a meeting either on the Saturday or the Sunday prior to the race start.

The Actus Reus can only be from Piquet - no one else was driving.

The unknown knowns - I love the amayreecans - are

Who's idea was it?

Were the Piquets blackmailing the team, or an individual or individuals within the team?

Why did Piquet not just say no, then go running to the appropriate authorities?

Why did Piquet think it was OK to keep it quiet until it suited him.

Now, will we ever know the truth. Or will the FIA put out a press release saying that the answer is 42??? ;)

[ioan]

In flav's favor he did bed Naomi and Heidi

I bet it wasn't for his great looks or his sleaze bag personality.
Is it something positive to get in bed with women because you have lots of money :?:

[SGWilko]

Is it something positive to get in bad with women because you have lots of money :?:

I don't know mate - I'm skint! :laugh:

[SGWilko]

I bet it wasn't for his great looks or his sleaze bag personality.

So, tell me Miss xxxxxxx, what was it about the multi millionaire Flavio Briatore that attracted you to him? ;)

[ioan]

True, there are number of cases in addition to those, for example Senna, at Estoril 1988, was very very close to putting Prost deliberately in the wall at 300kph. Piquet's crash should indeed be considered in relation to what has happened before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjfwRrvtlNw

Not really.

Piquet's crash was premeditated by the team in order to favor their other driver.

Senna did also say he will do it if Prost get's ahead of him at the start and he did it, so it is somewhat similar but the team was not involved.

Michael did not premeditate his move and he didn't announce it one day before it happened, also he got stripped of his 2nd place in the championship for what happened.

But if we got to searching similar cases of races fixes when a driver did something dangerous to favor his team or team mate than Spa 1998 springs to mind, but we have no proof as back then the radio conversation between team and driver were note closely monitored by the FIA like they do now. Also there is little to suggest that the team discussed it before the race.

[Valve Bounce]

Errrrmmmmm, aaaahhhhhhh, didn't NPKSnr publicly accuse Ayrton of being Gay, and didn't he deride 'our Nige's' wife.

You see - what goes around comes around.......

I'm not aware that Nelson Senior was involved in race fixing.

[ioan]

So you see, in my book, the Piquets (you'd assume like father, like son) ...

That's one supposition too much in order to make a point.

[SGWilko]

I'm not aware that Nelson Senior was involved in race fixing.

Well, we don't know yet, but that was not the accusation levied by the author....

[ioan]

So, tell me Miss xxxxxxx, what was it about the multi millionaire Flavio Briatore that attracted you to him? ;)

I bet she will duck it.

[SGWilko]

That's one supposition too much in order to make a point.

'Twas but a mere assuption me ole mucker!

[ioan]

I don't know mate - I'm skint! :laugh:

My bad, corrected it now! :D

[ioan]

'Twas but a mere assuption me ole mucker!

Yeah, but you based your argument on it.

[SGWilko]

Yeah, but you based your argument on it.

Of course, because it was MY argument. I hope my opinions are not about to be dictated to me? :laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

Well, we don't know yet, but that was not the accusation levied by the author....

We are gauging the degree and level of sleaze here, and Sleazy Flav wins hands down!!

[ioan]

Of course, because it was MY argument. I hope my opinions are not about to be dictated to me? :laugh:

Can't take a bit of criticism over YOUR opinions, eh lad?! :p :

[ioan]

We are gauging the degree and level of sleaze here, and Sleazy Flav wins hands down!!

Yep by a nautical mile, nah make that two miles! :)

[SGWilko]

Can't take a bit of criticism over YOUR opinions, eh lad?! :p :

Yes, but I get enough of that from 'er indoors!! ;)

[SGWilko]

We are gauging the degree and level of sleaze here, and Sleazy Flav wins hands down!!

Yes, but surely in respect of the thread title.

You can't really say Flav is wrong for bad mouthing the Piquets when it was OK for Piquet Snr to do it at his discretion in the past.

They are both as bad as each other in my opinion.

[SGWilko]

I bet she will duck it.

Potential there for a quality Freudian slip!!! ;)

[Valve Bounce]

When I first heard of this conspiracy to crash by Jr, I thought it was totally absurd and ranked with the moon landing conspiracies. There were just too many gaps and intricacies for this to be real. And reading the first few pages of this thread, I can see I was not alone in this wild accusation - nothing more than sour grapes from a driver who was fired for lack of performance.

Then the facts started to be made known, the planning and fuel loads and location of the crash where there was no crane or exit from the track so that the Safety Car had to be deployed. Bringing Alonso in two laps before the crash was a masterstroke. Getting Jr to agree to crash was masterful.

Then when we read about the FIA investigation and Pat Symonds evasive answers and reluctance to say anything meaningful, we suddenly realise that this was real. The sudden departure of both Flav and Symonds from Renault on the eve of the WMSC hearing left few in doubt as to who was really guilty.

I was always uneasy at the manner that Jarno Trulli was fired, and then when Fisi porved very fast in Oz where he won, only to be frustrated (remember when he threw his gloves and got ticked off by Flav) in the following races made me feel something was not kosher at Team Renault.

The WMSC hearing on Monday may reveal even more or merely just to confirm what most of us already "know".

I certainly hope we have heard the last of Flav and that he will never be a part of any form of motorsport in the future.

[Valve Bounce]

Yes, but surely in respect of the thread title.

You can't really say Flav is wrong for bad mouthing the Piquets when it was OK for Piquet Snr to do it at his discretion in the past.

They are both as bad as each other in my opinion.

So!! tell me something new!!

[Sonic]

When I first heard of this conspiracy to crash by Jr, I thought it was totally absurd and ranked with the moon landing conspiracies. There were just too many gaps and intricacies for this to be real. And reading the first few pages of this thread, I can see I was not alone in this wild accusation - nothing more than sour grapes from a driver who was fired for lack of performance.

Then the facts started to be made known, the planning and fuel loads and location of the crash where there was no crane or exit from the track so that the Safety Car had to be deployed. Bringing Alonso in two laps before the crash was a masterstroke. Getting Jr to agree to crash was masterful.

Then when we read about the FIA investigation and Pat Symonds evasive answers and reluctance to say anything meaningful, we suddenly realise that this was real. The sudden departure of both Flav and Symonds from Renault on the eve of the WMSC hearing left few in doubt as to who was really guilty.

I was always uneasy at the manner that Jarno Trulli was fired, and then when Fisi porved very fast in Oz where he won, only to be frustrated (remember when he threw his gloves and got ticked off by Flav) in the following races made me feel something was not kosher at Team Renault.

The WMSC hearing on Monday may reveal even more or merely just to confirm what most of us already "know".

I certainly hope we have heard the last of Flav and that he will never be a part of any form of motorsport in the future.

Nicely summed up. I too hope the rotten parts of Renault have been cut away and we can draewn a line under this sorry tale and get back to racing.

[ioan]

Yes, but I get enough of that from 'er indoors!! ;)

That's a good excuse! :D

[555-04Q2]

Yes, but surely in respect of the thread title.

You can't really say Flav is wrong for bad mouthing the Piquets when it was OK for Piquet Snr to do it at his discretion in the past.

They are both as bad as each other in my opinion.

Well said :up:

[ioan]

I wouldn't say Schumacher deliberately drove into the back of Coulthard, now thats below the belt ioan i'm afraid... :p

What a coincidence, I wouldn't say that either! :laugh:

[ioan]

Potential there for a quality Freudian slip!!! ;)

:D

[Saint Devote]

!. In answer to you opening sentence, read the link given in this thread, and where it has been discussed alread, and where most of us called him a sleazy scumbag.

In answer to your second sentence, Yes! [read the questions put to Pat Symonds that he evaded], and Yes! He is a lying, cheating, conniving scumbag!.

In answer to your third and fourth sentences, they have been discussed ad infinitum here long before you blessed us here with your presence.

In answer to your next sentence, this has nothing to do with Humphrey Bogart.

And we all than you for your last paragraph!! and we don't give a shyte!!

The issue - glaring issue is the hypocrisy that extends from racing to this board.

That maybe Briatore lied - what about Mclaren's and especially Hamilton - they ALL lied and made David Ryan the scapegoat. Where was the indignation and condemnation then? More importantly why is Hamilton still racing because he lied as much as all the others and did bear false witness.

So fingers can be pointed but it is done selectively here.

Maybe y'all get so upset because it is the truth.

My disgust is the glee that is being expressed here and the extreme words of condemnation, so easily written towards an individual, Briatore, before a trial has even been held. You are all worse than Piquet because at least he KNOWS what happened.

The action by Renault is not based on guilt, it is an attempt to reach a plea bargain of sorts.

And even if Briatore and Symonds are found guilty, is this reason to act as if these people have committed murder? You all know these people from the sport yet you turn on them without any thought of the good they did in motor racing.

What is the difference between ramming another driver, parking dangerously at a corner, lying under oath and so on that has all been done in f1?

Mark Webber has already stated that at least the danger involved in a situation where Piquet deliberately crashes is not a reason for the uproar.

But there are many that resent Briatore and probably they will and maybe the FIA will use this stick to beat the man.

Bernie and Lauda have commented and they are correct and decently spoken without using the disgraceful tone that exists towards Briatore on this thread - but then it is easy to sit and do that all safely, and be so brave, behind the annoymous keyboard.

At least the people IN racing have not pronounced him guilty like so many here, without a trial.

[Saint Devote]

I wouldn't say Schumacher deliberately drove into the back of Coulthard, now thats below the belt ioan i'm afraid... :p

Thats true, all Schumacher did was deliberately directly crash into another driver.

He is lucky it was Damon Hill and not AJ Foyt or Jody Scheckter - because the German driver would always remember the American or South African knuckle sandwich he richly deserved.

[Big Ben]

but then it is easy to sit and do that all safely, and be so brave, behind the annoymous keyboard.


I will say it to your face if you want. Should I give you my address? :laugh:

[ioan]

The issue - glaring issue is the hypocrisy that extends from racing to this board.

We are all part of this board, you included. And I wouldn't say that your views are less hypocrite than others people.
So please do get off the high horse and try to behave like part of this board not like some kind of self canonized forum member. It would help you see things better and improve communication with other forum members, IMO.

[harsha]

I suppose now we could hear stories coming in from other drivers like Fisico,Trulli,Button on how they were treated by Slavio Briatore

[Pitflaps]

Saint Devote: "The action by Renault is not based on guilt, it is an attempt to reach a plea bargain of sorts."

Bilgeington.

If Briatore is innocent are you trying to tell me that he would knowingly quit and cease his defamation statement for the sake of a company he has no affiliation to other than that it employs him? A man of his wealth and power is actually going to ruin his reputation by admitting he's guilty when he isn't???

I appreciate that the letter of the law should be upheld - such as it is with the FIA - but we've long since gone past smoke and fires with this one. We don't have to be coy about the guilt just because he hasn't explicitly owned up to it because the actions alone tell us all we need to know: these two did it, been booted out for it and Renault are now desperately hoping they can pull some sort of dignity out of the fire.

I only hope their disgracefully motivated actions don't ultimately cause the redundancies of 700 people who they had a duty of care for but which both of them appear to have been incredibly cynical if not myopic about.

And that is a disgrace; not the bad mouthing of a known - and convicted, incidentally - fraudster and bully who if he'd had any dignity should have quit years ago rather than been forced out by yet another action of self-interest that finally caught up with him.

[ArrowsFA1]

If Briatore is innocent are you trying to tell me that he would knowingly quit and cease his defamation statement for the sake of a company he has no affiliation to other than that it employs him? A man of his wealth and power is actually going to ruin his reputation by admitting he's guilty when he isn't???
Well...Briatore has said (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78680)) "I was just trying to save the team. It's my duty. That's the reason I've finished."

[Robinho]

Perhaps Saint would like to take some delve into some of Flavs dealings prior to the Bennetton (pre F1) days, or perhaps could divulge some information into the shade that exists surrounding the bomb outside his house in the 90's that was never explained before nailing his colours to Flavs flag (pole).

yes he's acheived plenty, he's been very successful inside and outside F1, but contgroversy has always surrounded him - Bennetton Traction control? Tampered fuel rigs? McLaren data in the system? he's always been happy to insult other drivers and cry foul against his team when it suits (see Double Diffusers and Jenson Button from this year alone)

he is not some paragon of virtue that you make out, he is a highly successful and highly ruthless man who has taken one chance too many. sure he's been a colourful character, but the entertainment he's brought has steadily been overtaken by the sleaze and as such he has to go.

what better way to admit guilt than to quit (whilst pushed) and not contest the charges.

and for the record there has been plenty of outpourings regarding Hamilton, Schumacher, McLaren, Ferrari and pretty much every controversy here, this is not new, unlike yourself. but the act of reckless endagerment as a method of cheating, and lieing about it is about as bad as it comes and Piquet is as guilty as anyone, knowing the history of his father, and of Jnrs time in the lower formulae in S America i'm not the least bit surprised by his part in this.

that he was willing to partake in the scheme is bad enough, to carry it out, lie about it and then only come clean as a grudge/bargaining tool is just scummy behaviour - if the piquets are never seen in F1 either i will not shed a tear

[ioan]

Well...Briatore has said (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78680)) "I was just trying to save the team. It's my duty. That's the reason I've finished."

Not sure why :p but I don't believe him, not even 1%.

[ioan]

Ha ha we actually agree :p
We all know Coulthard with his supreme powers managed to focus his eyes onto a 3 inch mirror covered in water droplets, and see through several hundred yards of thick spray... That or he managed to hear and understand more than 3 words through a crackly, analogue, late ninties team radio..

Mclaren:"Schumacher is somewhere on the track behind you, we don't know whereabouts I'm afraid. Eddie Jordan doesn't even know Damon is in contention or where the Benson and Hedges girls are. The TV camera's can hardly follow where anyone is, but if you can mate slow down, use the force, and try to knock him off"....

Well thats my take on it anyway... :)

Sorry off topic my fault...

You watched to much Star Wars! ;)

[Knock-on]

That he was willing to partake in the scheme is bad enough, to carry it out, lie about it and then only come clean as a grudge/bargaining tool is just scummy behaviour - if the piquets are never seen in F1 either i will not shed a tear

Hang on, I'll just check in my sympathy vault.

No,

Nothing,

Sorry. Must be the recession. Nought left in there :)

[harsha]

and for the record there has been plenty of outpourings regarding Hamilton, Schumacher, McLaren, Ferrari and pretty much every controversy here, this is not new, unlike yourself. but the act of reckless endagerment as a method of cheating, and lieing about it is about as bad as it comes and Piquet is as guilty as anyone, knowing the history of his father, and of Jnrs time in the lower formulae in S America i'm not the least bit surprised by his part in this.

that he was willing to partake in the scheme is bad enough, to carry it out, lie about it and then only come clean as a grudge/bargaining tool is just scummy behaviour - if the piquets are never seen in F1 either i will not shed a tear

I don't know much about Piquet Jr's antics in the South American Racing Scene,so is there anything that i should know that makes me lose my symphathy for him :?:

[harsha]

I can't believe you have any sympathy for him :eek:

actually to be honest, i do...

here's a guy who's racing his first year in F1 and being told to crash so that his team-mate can win a high profile race...(the first night race in F1,that oughta attract quite a bit of sponsorship)

I don't like the fact about the circumstances that got him to reveal the truth...but he's a young driver...a rookie....

I know about NPSr and his mindgames but I think he was pressurized into doing this.

[ioan]

I can't believe you have any sympathy for him :eek:

Why not?!
When you see how much sympathy (I'd even say love) Saint Devote devotes :p to Sleazy Flab I find it very natural for someone to have a bit of sympathy for Jr. too.

[Valve Bounce]

The issue - glaring issue is the hypocrisy that extends from racing to this board.

That maybe Briatore lied - what about Mclaren's and especially Hamilton - they ALL lied and made David Ryan the scapegoat. Where was the indignation and condemnation then? More importantly why is Hamilton still racing because he lied as much as all the others and did bear false witness.

So fingers can be pointed but it is done selectively here.

Maybe y'all get so upset because it is the truth.

My disgust is the glee that is being expressed here and the extreme words of condemnation, so easily written towards an individual, Briatore, before a trial has even been held. You are all worse than Piquet because at least he KNOWS what happened.

The action by Renault is not based on guilt, it is an attempt to reach a plea bargain of sorts.

And even if Briatore and Symonds are found guilty, is this reason to act as if these people have committed murder? You all know these people from the sport yet you turn on them without any thought of the good they did in motor racing.

What is the difference between ramming another driver, parking dangerously at a corner, lying under oath and so on that has all been done in f1?

Mark Webber has already stated that at least the danger involved in a situation where Piquet deliberately crashes is not a reason for the uproar.

But there are many that resent Briatore and probably they will and maybe the FIA will use this stick to beat the man.

Bernie and Lauda have commented and they are correct and decently spoken without using the disgraceful tone that exists towards Briatore on this thread - but then it is easy to sit and do that all safely, and be so brave, behind the annoymous keyboard.

At least the people IN racing have not pronounced him guilty like so many here, without a trial.

I have always called Flav "Sleazy Flav", and this latest sorry episode just strengthens my belief that Sleazy Flav is indeed Sleazy.

This is a discussion forum where we all sit behind an anonymous keyboard to discuss our views. I have never pronounced he is guilty; merely that the facts presented so far indicate that he is. However, by Tuesday, even you will know his guilt.

We are not talking about Sleazy Flav lying only, we are talking about his complicity in race fixing. And I'll be most surprised if he turns up in Singapore next week because there will be the Singaporean authorities who will want to know more about this race fixing that Sleazy Flav was involved in.

You can forget about ramming another driver etc, etc, etc. That has been discussed at great length (as I have already stated) before you graced this forum with your presence. In fact, you seem to have missed the case of forcing another driver into a concrete wall, and we have discussed that also. All that has nothing to do with Sleazy Flav.

This is a discussion forum where we all state our views. You worship Sleazy Flav, and I find him a disgusting character.

[Valve Bounce]

Well...Briatore has said (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78680)) "I was just trying to save the team. It's my duty. That's the reason I've finished."

http://api.ning.com/files/2D12wzLl5--3CT3QCkd*shA1wVa5n5OYN9g-q19bUA8gcuBYFa8Kx3nRAaQNRd-jL22st-4*2y9bEwxRXoOEeCFv0LvenTni/lion_facepalm.jpg

[Valve Bounce]

Perhaps Saint would like to take some delve into some of Flavs dealings prior to the Bennetton (pre F1) days, or perhaps could divulge some information into the shade that exists surrounding the bomb outside his house in the 90's that was never explained before nailing his colours to Flavs flag (pole).

yes he's acheived plenty, he's been very successful inside and outside F1, but contgroversy has always surrounded him - Bennetton Traction control? Tampered fuel rigs? McLaren data in the system? he's always been happy to insult other drivers and cry foul against his team when it suits (see Double Diffusers and Jenson Button from this year alone)

he is not some paragon of virtue that you make out, he is a highly successful and highly ruthless man who has taken one chance too many. sure he's been a colourful character, but the entertainment he's brought has steadily been overtaken by the sleaze and as such he has to go.

what better way to admit guilt than to quit (whilst pushed) and not contest the charges.

and for the record there has been plenty of outpourings regarding Hamilton, Schumacher, McLaren, Ferrari and pretty much every controversy here, this is not new, unlike yourself. but the act of reckless endagerment as a method of cheating, and lieing about it is about as bad as it comes and Piquet is as guilty as anyone, knowing the history of his father, and of Jnrs time in the lower formulae in S America i'm not the least bit surprised by his part in this.

that he was willing to partake in the scheme is bad enough, to carry it out, lie about it and then only come clean as a grudge/bargaining tool is just scummy behaviour - if the piquets are never seen in F1 either i will not shed a tear

Thank you!

By the way, you don't have a link to the stuff in your first paragraph, do you? Grateful if you could send that to me by PM. Ta!!

[Valve Bounce]

Piquet may well have been naive but no less than Lewy boy playing politics on behalf of his team in Australia.. Look at the lynching he got on here, and I remember people saying "he should have refused to lie and been a man and stop trying to pass the buck bla bla"... Why then is this any different??

We all had our say and condemned him. I felt he should have been banned actually, but that would have upset that horrible dwarf Greedy Bernie. But!! that is off topic - this is about the the race fixing perpetrated by Sleazy Flav, Pat Symonds and that idiot Jr.

[Robinho]

I don't know much about Piquet Jr's antics in the South American Racing Scene,so is there anything that i should know that makes me lose my symphathy for him :?:


its worth having a search for some details on a few antics regarding (i think) Brazilian or S American F3 championships, regarding testing, extra parts and his competitors. i can't remeber all the details but i read enough to think he probably would have struggled to even make GP2 without some of the underhand goings on back there, let alone the budget his team was running on compared to the others.

[Knock-on]

Thank you!

By the way, you don't have a link to the stuff in your first paragraph, do you? Grateful if you could send that to me by PM. Ta!!

Flav has lead a more colourful life than a Bennetton advert. There has always been suggestions of dodgy dealings under the surface but for the sake of a Horses head, I won't go into it. Suffice to say his boss decided to be retired by a slight problem with car combustion which preceeded his rise to become involved with Benetton before running NA and finally the race team.

[Robinho]

Thank you!

By the way, you don't have a link to the stuff in your first paragraph, do you? Grateful if you could send that to me by PM. Ta!!

i haven't got anything that i can send you right now, i've read a few things about his "connections" and there is supposedly links to these previous dealings and the bombing. its easy to fill in the blanks and probably end up with a similar idea, although there is obviously not a lot of documented info.

needless to say there was never a result to the investigations into the bombing. there is enough mention of crimes and "families" in teh paragraph below to raise questions at least!


He was born in 1950 in Verzuolo, in the Italian Piedmont, and earned a living as a ski instructor and restaurant manager before going to work as an assistant to the businessman Attilio Dutto, the owner of the Paramatti Vernici paint manufacturing company. The company's previous owner had been Michele Sindona, a Sicily-born Mafia banker who laundered heroin proceeds for the Gambino family and was poisoned in prison. In 1979 Dutto was killed in a car-bomb attack, the identity and motives of his assassin still unknown.

When the firm collapsed Briatore was charged with fraudulent bankruptcy and given a prison sentence of four and a half years. He moved to the Virgin Islands, but benefited from a legal amnesty and was able to return to Italy and settle in Milan. There he met Luciano Benetton, the head of the clothing firm, who offered him a job arranging franchises in the US
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/sep/17/flavio-briatore-renault-formula-one

also
Briatore's friendship with Ecclestone survived an early disturbance when, soon after he had bought a house in Cadogan Square from the Formula One ringmaster, a bomb blew off the front door

[Knock-on]

Sorry Rob, forgot about the London Bomb. :)

[MrJan]

Bored of this now.....next scandal please

[Knock-on]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78681

Renault blame Flav

[Robinho]

Bored of this now.....next scandal please

how about;

Caster Semenya to become new F1 "woman Driver", Piquet Jnr says
not man enough for him

Button does not offer to adjust her straps
i'm afraid i could lose my hand, i've heard she's got teeth down there!

Vettel overheard saying
man, she could snap me like a twig

[BDunnell]

I find it very telling that Ecclestone has been so willing to cosy up to someone who was basically a convicted criminal. Big believer in rehabilitation, is he? To how many non-wealthy individuals found guilty of a serious crime and given a jail sentence would he extend the same friendship?

[ioan]

its worth having a search for some details on a few antics regarding (i think) Brazilian or S American F3 championships, regarding testing, extra parts and his competitors. i can't remeber all the details but i read enough to think he probably would have struggled to even make GP2 without some of the underhand goings on back there, let alone the budget his team was running on compared to the others.

Still he was more than good in GP2, only 2nd to a certain Hamilton. It looks to me that he was good enough to be in GP2 not like someone who struggled to get there.
Than again him doing well in GP2 is a fact while, please allow me to quote you, 'to think he probably would have struggled to even make GP2 without some of the underhand goings on back there, let alone the budget his team was running on compared to the others' is just a wild assumption.

[harsha]

actually , I would agree with Ioan...my first recollection of piquet jr has been the GP2 season in which he gave Hamilton quite a good fight.

but then I suppose i'll have to read up on his escapades on the SA F3 championship though...thanks for the headsup @ Robinho :)

[F1boat]

How good you are in other motorsports sometimes is irrelevant. Bourdais was good in F3000, Champ Car, Le Mans and now in Superleague, but...

[hmmm - donuts]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before so apologies if I'm repeating something that's already been covered...

It seems that at the time of the crash there was already a suspicion that NP Jnr had deliberately crashed his car. It also seems that the telemetry supports this point of view. So... since the telemetry must have been available to the FIA at that time and since there were already doubts about whether this was an accident, how come the FIA didn't investigate at the time? Was this a deliberate 'sweeping under the carpet' by the FIA? Or did they have to wait until allegations had been made?

Regards

[Robinho]

Still he was more than good in GP2, only 2nd to a certain Hamilton. It looks to me that he was good enough to be in GP2 not like someone who struggled to get there.
Than again him doing well in GP2 is a fact while, please allow me to quote you, 'to think he probably would have struggled to even make GP2 without some of the underhand goings on back there, let alone the budget his team was running on compared to the others' is just a wild assumption.

you have missed my point (for a change), being that there were some decidedly fishy things going on in the Piquet camp, which have led me to be unsurprised that Piquet was a willing participant in this.

to have reached GP2, raced as well as he did then and then made it to F1, even if he looked pretty weak most of the time when he did, proves he is undoubtedley a decent and quicj driver - all i was saying is that perhaps he was a bit fortunate to have got picked up and been able to prove his pace in GP2 when you look back at how he made his name before that. and of course, no-one gets anywhere without a bucketload of cash in this business whether its your own or someone elses, but there were things not exactly of a level playing field in his earlier career so i won't feel too bad for the guy now he is bleating on about the treatment he's received.

also being 2nd to Hamilton might not say back if the rest of the field were no good - he was close to Hamilton then and is now not even classed in the same field by most i would think, given that no-one was rushing to sign him before, during or after Renault

[ioan]

also being 2nd to Hamilton might not say back if the rest of the field were no good - he was close to Hamilton then and is now not even classed in the same field by most i would think, given that no-one was rushing to sign him before, during or after Renault

You forgot to say that the Renault was as fast as the McLaren last season and this season and also jr has been the number one driver at renault just like Lewis at McLaren.

Sarcasm aside he got Renaults first podium finish last season while Alonso was busy spinning out in the midfield. But I suppose that some people are set to only bring up the negatives, so I'll be happy to provide some balance. :)

[Robinho]

You forgot to say that the Renault was as fast as the McLaren last season and this season and also jr has been the number one driver at renault just like Lewis at McLaren.

Sarcasm aside he got Renaults first podium finish last season while Alonso was busy spinning out in the midfield. But I suppose that some people are set to only bring up the negatives, so I'll be happy to provide some balance. :)

podium earned - thanks to a safety car!

if you think Piquet, Singapore-gate aside, has done enough to warrant a place in F1 then great, but i have seen nothing to suggest that myself. he has crashed or spun at most races to the point it has become a running joke and all the time whilst not being close to the same pace as his teammate 95% of the time.

perhaps you have a point with the number 1 thing - Piquet has had his own team pretty much all his career, so not used to the pressure to perform in that respect, and i agree Flav has not always been the easiest to drive for, but you'd expect at least glimpses of talent that would single him out for an extended F1 career.

so we have a crash prone, not quick enough, mentally fragile and willing to cheat for negatives and was quick enough to come 2nd in GP2 and decent enough to get an F1 drive as positives - is that balanced enough for you! ;)

[Robinho]

If I remember rightly Piquet was leading the German GP where he gained a podium and put up little fight when Hamilton came up for the pass. In fact Brundle questioned at the time if he had actually let Hamilton through, not realising that Hamilton was passing for position. It was a great position for Piquet with all this aside however and probably helped secure his position in the team awhile longer.... :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s580tuZeKJ8

yeah, piquet benefitted from Glocks crash to come out from the safety car in 2nd behind Hamilton, but Hamilton hadn't pitted and had to pit shortly after and retook Massa and Piquet to win. Piquet did not give much of a fight, but it is difficult to resist a much faster car on that track (so why we don't go there every year i don't know, seeing as overtaking isn't just possible, its likely!)

By far Piquets best result, and although he lucked into teh position thanks to the safety car, was able to be quick enough and not crash to keep it. it was the only time i'd say he looked like he belonged in F1 long term

[Valve Bounce]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before so apologies if I'm repeating something that's already been covered...

It seems that at the time of the crash there was already a suspicion that NP Jnr had deliberately crashed his car. It also seems that the telemetry supports this point of view. So... since the telemetry must have been available to the FIA at that time and since there were already doubts about whether this was an accident, how come the FIA didn't investigate at the time? Was this a deliberate 'sweeping under the carpet' by the FIA? Or did they have to wait until allegations had been made?

Regards

http://api.ning.com/files/2D12wzLl5--3CT3QCkd*shA1wVa5n5OYN9g-q19bUA8gcuBYFa8Kx3nRAaQNRd-jL22st-4*2y9bEwxRXoOEeCFv0LvenTni/lion_facepalm.jpg

Basically, your post is #786, so I would say "yeah!" ; chances are that there may have been a little discussion on these and other events. Here's the summary of events from Autosport: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78682

[grantb4]

It seems that at the time of the crash there was already a suspicion that NP Jnr had deliberately crashed his car. It also seems that the telemetry supports this point of view. So... since the telemetry must have been available to the FIA at that time and since there were already doubts about whether this was an accident, how come the FIA didn't investigate at the time? Was this a deliberate 'sweeping under the carpet' by the FIA? Or did they have to wait until allegations had been made?


And even now they are comparing Alonso's data against Piquet. We should be looking at a few different laps of Piquet instead of muddying the waters with Alonso's data. Each driver's style will be different.* Anyway isn't this just a bigger case of team orders? Haven't we seen that to varying degrees over the years? They should just dole out the standard team orders penalty. To a degree it was still quite lucky for Alonso to win. He could easily have finished lower down the ranks ... would we be still as upset about it if he'd finished 9th?

* - have a look at the previous straight. Piquet is flat for way longer than Alonso. Is this due to traffic? Or style? Gearing? What?

[Valve Bounce]

And even now they are comparing Alonso's data against Piquet. We should be looking at a few different laps of Piquet instead of muddying the waters with Alonso's data. Each driver's style will be different.* Anyway isn't this just a bigger case of team orders? Haven't we seen that to varying degrees over the years? They should just dole out the standard team orders penalty. To a degree it was still quite lucky for Alonso to win. He could easily have finished lower down the ranks ... would we be still as upset about it if he'd finished 9th?

* - have a look at the previous straight. Piquet is flat for way longer than Alonso. Is this due to traffic? Or style? Gearing? What?

I think it is due to your not acquainting yourself with all the facts of the case.

[harsha]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78577

sorry to post something which already might have been covered but this article is about Barrichello slamming Briatore for his tasteless remarks on NP Jr

excerpt from the article

Barrichello said the newly painted helmet that he was using at the Italian Grand Prix was in part a homage to say how much he missed Piquet, and fellow Brazilian Felipe Massa, in F1.

And although he has had his differences with Piquet's father, he said he had nothing but respect for Nelsinho.

When asked if he missed Nelson, Barrichello said: "Nelson Sr? Not a chance! But Nelsinho has always been very respectful I think.

"After all the bad things that Nelson put in the press about myself, Nelsinho has been very, very good to my side, and we have a great respect from each other. I felt sorry for him in a way."

http://www.crash.net/f1/News/151221/1/alonso_piquet_talented_enough_to_merit_f1_future.h tml

and also quoting Alonso on Piquet....Understand both articles might be dated,but Alonso doesn't seem to be the kinda guy who would give empty undeserved praise to somebody...

[Valve Bounce]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78577

sorry to post something which already might have been covered but this article is about Barrichello slamming Briatore for his tasteless remarks on NP Jr

excerpt from the article

Barrichello said the newly painted helmet that he was using at the Italian Grand Prix was in part a homage to say how much he missed Piquet, and fellow Brazilian Felipe Massa, in F1.

And although he has had his differences with Piquet's father, he said he had nothing but respect for Nelsinho.

When asked if he missed Nelson, Barrichello said: "Nelson Sr? Not a chance! But Nelsinho has always been very respectful I think.

"After all the bad things that Nelson put in the press about myself, Nelsinho has been very, very good to my side, and we have a great respect from each other. I felt sorry for him in a way."

http://www.crash.net/f1/News/151221/1/alonso_piquet_talented_enough_to_merit_f1_future.h tml

and also quoting Alonso on Piquet....Understand both articles might be dated,but Alonso doesn't seem to be the kinda guy who would give empty undeserved praise to somebody...

Well, Jr can hardly be described as receiving empty undeserved praise from Fernando - he crashed his car last year so Fernando could win, for God's sake. Isn't that praiseworthy enough?

[Big Ben]

The fact that the team focused more on Alonso doesn't surprise me. I think they've made the right choice. But these allegations that the team held him back because he was no. 2 driver aren't too logic... I mean... since Renault wasn't in position to fight for the wdc the only thing they could hope for was the best position in the wcc and for that they needed maximum from both drivers. So why then would they deliberately undermine one of the their drivers to finish most of the races at the back of the field.

That crash brought more points to the team than his drive could have... that evening :laugh:

[Knock-on]

Come to think of it, has anyone ever seen Nelson Piquet Junior and Knock-on in the same room together?

Or Tamburello and Flavio for that matter.

:D

Has Tamb left the forum? I thought that as his team is Renault, he would happily come on here and admit it was not a load of rubbish as he claimed but was fact and Renault have cheated.

Knowing Tamburello, he will probably call it good strategy using fair and hard racing and they have done nothing to be ashamed of :laugh:

[CNR]

http://www.canada.com/Piquet+senior+raised+concerns+over+Singapore+Grand +Prix+last+year+report/2009315/story.html


"Anyway, in Brazil I talk to Charlie," he continued.
"I got him and said ’Look what could happen to Nelson if I bring this up? And I was afraid to screw up the career of Nelson."
Piquet added later: "In the race in Brazil I called Charlie and I told the whole story to Charlie."

[Valve Bounce]

There's nothing in that article about Charlie being escorted to the airport by armed men wearing sunglasses. :eek:

[Roamy]

If it were anyone except the Piquets or David Richards I would be ready to tar and feather Flav and Symonds. But somehow I have a hard time supporting broken valor among thieves!!

[tec4]

FIA being fair? is an unlikely conclusion but in 2009, FIA seem about to apply some perverted corporate zero tolerance, assisted by F1 sportsmedia like BBC's Brundle.

Fairness would be punishment given for intentionally crashing into direct competitor who would have won championship, on last lap of last race in TWO consecutive race seasons by MS "equivalent" to current firings at McLaren and now Renault and foolish comments by F1 driver named Brundle that PiquetJr should never drive again.

Michael, "best driver ever"? or rookie driver Piquet do not deserve Brundle's foolish comments and nor do the whole Renault team deserve to be punished by FIA High Court zero tolerance.

Fortunately, Michael and Ferrari team did not have F1 sportsmedia like Brundle -- not that long ago.

[ioan]

If it were anyone except the Piquets or David Richards I would be ready to tar and feather Flav and Symonds. But somehow I have a hard time supporting broken valor among thieves!!

I don't know why you bother, we all know that you hate Richards, Theissen and the Piquets.
We also know you love Alonso and apparently Flav. :p :

[ioan]

FIA being fair? is an unlikely conclusion but in 2009, FIA seem about to apply some perverted corporate zero tolerance, assisted by F1 sportsmedia like BBC's Brundle.

Fairness would be punishment given for intentionally crashing into direct competitor who would have won championship, on last lap of last race in TWO consecutive race seasons by MS "equivalent" to current firings at McLaren and now Renault and foolish comments by F1 driver named Brundle that PiquetJr should never drive again.

Michael, "best driver ever"? or rookie driver Piquet do not deserve Brundle's foolish comments and nor do the whole Renault team deserve to be punished by FIA High Court zero tolerance.

Fortunately, Michael and Ferrari team did not have F1 sportsmedia like Brundle -- not that long ago.

Yeah Brundle was born just after Schumacher retired! And there were no journalists before him. :rotflamo:

[speeddurango]

That didn't happen in 2 consecutive seasons and MS got the punishment anyway the second time, so it was kind of pointless in mentioning that; and there is fairness to some extent in FIA, considering this is F1, not a non-profit motoring enthusiastics club.

[BDunnell]

Yeah Brundle was born just after Schumacher retired! And there were no journalists before him. :rotflamo:

Well, quite. I didn't understand most of the post you quote, to be honest.

[Roamy]

very good article today
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78732

[Somebody]

Forgive me for being cynical, but when the SPANISH motorsport head - who previously slammed Renault's one-race ban because it would affect Alonso - goes on-record slamming NPJ for starting this (and if he hadn't been offered immunity, he would never have said anything and everyone knows it), I'm a tad sceptical about his motives...

[tec4]

Why should the punishment be difference between Michael Schumacher's intentional crash into Hill and Villeneuve in the last "championship-deciding" race of TWO seasons and PiquetJr intentional crash into a Pat Symonds-indicated safe WALL? so that Alonso could win a single non-championship deciding race.

Both rookie PiquetJr and NOT-rookie Michael had a choice, in which they failed the sport of FormulaOne.

After Michael's repeated violation, he did seem to get why it was wrong but not because of sportmedia exclusives from the likes of Brundle, Lauda, Gracia suggesting that anyone connected to Renault should exit F1 forever -- unlike Michael losing something he has already lost when he was not successful in knocking Villeneuve off the winning lap.

Very different world we live in when the punishment changes to suit Brundle, Lauda, Gracia extremists.

Why do we hear this story and not the glorious hi-tech designs of FormulaONE? MotoGP or Bourdais wins SuperLeague are much more fun to watch.

[ioan]

Why should the punishment be difference between Michael Schumacher's intentional crash into Hill and Villeneuve in the last "championship-deciding" race of TWO seasons and PiquetJr intentional crash into a Pat Symonds-indicated safe WALL? so that Alonso could win a single non-championship deciding race.

Maybe because the two situations are very different?!

[BDunnell]

Why should the punishment be difference between Michael Schumacher's intentional crash into Hill and Villeneuve in the last "championship-deciding" race of TWO seasons and PiquetJr intentional crash into a Pat Symonds-indicated safe WALL? so that Alonso could win a single non-championship deciding race.

I think there is a significant difference between an orchestrated attempt at race-fixing and a (very) unwise move on the part of a driver. The latter happens all the time. I consider Schumacher's moves on Hill and Villeneuve pretty indefensible but in no way comparable with this Renault situation.



After Michael's repeated violation, he did seem to get why it was wrong but not because of sportmedia exclusives from the likes of Brundle, Lauda, Gracia suggesting that anyone connected to Renault should exit F1 forever -- unlike Michael losing something he has already lost when he was not successful in knocking Villeneuve off the winning lap.

I don't get the point of this criticism of the media. Renault attempted to fix a race and have, in effect, been found guilty. Opinions differ as to how serious this is, and this is reflected in comment on the subject. Nothing wrong with that.

[ioan]

very good article today
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78732

Yep great piece of hypocrisy from the Spanish guy:


Gracia believes Piquet is equally culpable in the affair and should also face the hearing.

"This kid, if it was up to me, wouldn't be allowed to walk blind people on the sidewalk," Gracia told Spanish radio station Onda Cero. "It's such yobbish behaviour from which he has also benefited, because, like he says in his sworn statement, he did it so he would get a contract renewal for 2009, and he will be paid until the end of the year.

"In that case this is a person should not only be sanctioned by the Council and the FIA, but he should also be prosecuted in an ordinary court.

"I found out through the press that Mr Nelsinho was going to get immunity. It would be a total shamelessness if this happened in the FIA."

I wonder if Senor Gracia has aired the same feeling about Fernando Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa being given immunity in Spygate 2 years ago. I somehow doubt it that he was calling for Alonso and PDLR's heads back then, which makes him an effin' hypocrite who better kept quiet now.