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Koz
30th August 2009, 15:34
Kimi for the win. (And nearly falling asleep on the podium)

F for keeping close. Too close for FI.

Congrats both!

Dave B
30th August 2009, 15:36
Fisi. The only thing he did wrong all weekend was to be a little too circumspect on the restart.

keysersoze
30th August 2009, 15:40
The podium guys. They all did well.

And it's great to see a podium where all of them look elated (well, Kimi looks as elated as Kimi CAN look):

KR because he delivered Ferrari's first win.
GF because he delivered FI's first points--and big points at that!
SV because he was the only championship contender who scored today.

ioan
30th August 2009, 15:42
Fisi, no question about this! :up:
Special mention to Vettel for a great come back and showing that he is fastest.
Can't give it to Kimi as I don't consider fair what he did after turn 1.

gm99
30th August 2009, 15:43
Fisi, no question about this! :up:
Special mention to Vettel for a great come back and showing that he is fastest.
Can't give it to Kimi as I don't consider fair what he did after turn 1.

Agree on all of the above.

CaptainRaiden
30th August 2009, 15:45
Kimi and Fisi hands down.

Kimi for making up 4 places at the start, and then overtaking Fisi on the restart. Yeah, the KERS button was a help, but he is special every time at Spa. Just for comparison, look where the second Ferrari ended up. Well done by the King of Spa.

Fisi for being on another planet this weekend. Sutil must be wondering what just happened. Once Kimi got the lead, I thought he would pull away, but tremendous pace by Fisi to stick with him all throughout the race and make his life harder. Very good.

wedge
30th August 2009, 15:45
Kimi and Fisi

Driver of the Weekend then no doubt it was Fisi


Fisi, no question about this! :up:
Special mention to Vettel for a great come back and showing that he is fastest.
Can't give it to Kimi as I don't consider fair what he did after turn 1.

Just what did he do wrong?

Ranger
30th August 2009, 15:46
Fisichella.

A very timely weekend of results tip the scales massively for him to drive the #4 Ferrari next time.

penagate
30th August 2009, 15:49
Can't give it to Kimi as I don't consider fair what he did after turn 1.

Yes; you wouldn't catch Michael pulling an underhanded move like that!

Dave B
30th August 2009, 15:49
Just what did [Kimi] do wrong?
He ran wide in what looked like a premeditated move to take advantage of the massive runoff area at La Source. This let him avoid any chaos, and also gave him a clear straight run down to Eau Rouge, allowing him to use his KERS to its full advantage. It was a straight case of all four wheels off the track - nobody forced him off - and should have been penalised. Hey ho.

Koz
30th August 2009, 15:50
Fisichella.

A very timely weekend of results tip the scales massively for him to drive the #4 Ferrari next time.

You have to consider that FI may be quicker than the Ferarri.

Robinho
30th August 2009, 15:51
Kimi for winning in a car that was not the quickest, but Fisi for an amazing (first points for FI) race shades it for me.

Vettel and the BMW's all raced well for me.

F1boat
30th August 2009, 15:52
Kimi Raikkonen. Very impressive, I am very happy for him and I am very happy that "Ferrari" scored a victory. Hopefully no FIA bull this time! Fisi did also a great job and I would like to mention Rubens for the character in the final laps. Barrichello is strong in Italy, so we have to wait and see, but I think that he can finally win his WDC!

CaptainRaiden
30th August 2009, 15:52
Can't give it to Kimi as I don't consider fair what he did after turn 1.

I can't remember who it was, either Alonso or Lewis, who did the exact same thing at Spa in 2007, and nobody got penalized. So, chill. That escape road is there to avoid contact in case things get tight, and that's just what Kimi did, albeit he braked too late and ran out of track to avoid running into the back of Trulli.

Kubica, Trulli and Kimi were the three cars which went abreast into La Source, and if Kimi would have still tried to turn, he would have spun or ran into the back of Trulli. I don't see anything wrong with that. There is no rule against using that escape road.

truefan72
30th August 2009, 15:52
Yes; you wouldn't catch Michael pulling an underhanded move like that!

let's leave out michael here shall we?

to me the driver of the race was vettel because he pushed like crazy.

followed by fisi, although I think he could have done more

Robinho
30th August 2009, 15:52
He ran wide in what looked like a premeditated move to take advantage of the massive runoff area at La Source. This let him avoid any chaos, and also gave him a clear straight run down to Eau Rouge, allowing him to use his KERS to its full advantage. It was a straight case of all four wheels off the track - nobody forced him off - and should have been penalised. Hey ho.


it depends where they demarc the official edge of the track, normally it is the white line/kerb, but at La Source it (could) be the fence.

in normal circumstances the line is not there, but on the first lap what he did seemed quite normal to be

Ranger
30th August 2009, 15:54
You have to consider that FI may be quicker than the Ferarri.

Just for this race maybe, but Fisi still flattened his team-mate and ticks every box to replace Badoer.

truefan72
30th August 2009, 15:56
I can't remember who it was, either Alonso or Lewis, who did the exact same thing at Spa in 2007, and nobody got penalized. So, chill. That escape road is there to avoid contact in case things get tight, and that's just what Kimi did, albeit he braked too late and ran out of track to avoid

wrong, Alonso forced Lewis off the track in 2007 and in 2008 kimi forced Lewis off the track making him return the spot and then the ridiculous penalty.

If kimi can simply go off the track, with no cars touching him, allowing him to accelerate past other cars and have an easier entrance into eau rouge then at the very lease he should be made to give back a few spots. That move was simple not legal by any standard

CaptainRaiden
30th August 2009, 15:57
He ran wide in what looked like a premeditated move to take advantage of the massive runoff area at La Source. This let him avoid any chaos, and also gave him a clear straight run down to Eau Rouge, allowing him to use his KERS to its full advantage. It was a straight case of all four wheels off the track - nobody forced him off - and should have been penalised. Hey ho.

Yes sure, because every good race plan starts with the driver saying, "I'll run wide in the first corner to win."

He would have gotten past those cars any way. Did you see how big the KERS advantage was when he overtook Fisi, and every time by the time he reached Les Combes?

F1boat
30th August 2009, 15:58
Pah, guys, enjoy the race, we had for once a Belgium GP without FIA, summon it not! :)

keysersoze
30th August 2009, 15:58
If kimi can simply go off the track, with no cars touching him, allowing him to accelerate past other cars and have an easier entrance into eau rouge then at the very lease he should be made to give back a few spots. That move was simple not legal by any standard

I agree.

ozrevhead
30th August 2009, 15:58
Fisi easallly great drive

Dave B
30th August 2009, 15:59
If kimi can simply go off the track, with no cars touching him, allowing him to accelerate past other cars and have an easier entrance into eau rouge then at the very lease he should be made to give back a few spots. That move was simple not legal by any standard
That to me is the key: Kimi gained an advantage - a massive one - by going off track. People always have and always will run wide at the first corner, but they seldom gain anything by doing so.

On the replay it appears that Badoer did the same, again without being forced, so I can't help but wonder if it was a deliberate Ferrari tactic.

wedge
30th August 2009, 15:59
He ran wide in what looked like a premeditated move to take advantage of the massive runoff area at La Source. This let him avoid any chaos, and also gave him a clear straight run down to Eau Rouge, allowing him to use his KERS to its full advantage. It was a straight case of all four wheels off the track - nobody forced him off - and should have been penalised. Hey ho.

There's no rule about overtaking on the outside off the track.

F1boat
30th August 2009, 16:00
I agree.

It is up to FIA and the stewards to decide this, yes?

penagate
30th August 2009, 16:01
On the replay it appears that Badoer did the same, again without being forced, so I can't help but wonder if it was a deliberate Ferrari tactic.

Didn't they do the same at Silverstone? Or was that a previous year?

keysersoze
30th August 2009, 16:02
It is up to FIA and the stewards to decide this, yes?

Certainly, but we keyboard jockeys like to think we know better. :D

Tazio
30th August 2009, 16:04
Kimi definitely!!

keysersoze
30th August 2009, 16:05
Didn't they do the same at Silverstone? Or was that a previous year?

If you are talking about turn one that is a dab on the brakes, so if you go off the track you will lose places. At Spa, the run-off area is where drivers will be mashing the gas.

ShiftingGears
30th August 2009, 16:07
If you are talking about turn one that is a dab on the brakes, so if you go off the track you will lose places. At Spa, the run-off area is where drivers will be mashing the gas.

Massa beat Kubica in Fuji 2007 because of the drive he got off of the run-off area.

Tarmac run-off areas = :down:

ioan
30th August 2009, 16:07
There's no rule about overtaking on the outside off the track.

Wrong! There is a rule about not gaining any advantage if you put all four wheels outside the track. Overtaking is an advantage.

spudrsca
30th August 2009, 16:07
Fisichella.
Can't give it to Kimi after the first turn and he was lucky also when he went to grass after missing the breaking spot after the first long straight that he was just touched slightly from behind, he could have lost the race there.

Dave B
30th August 2009, 16:10
There's no rule about overtaking on the outside off the track.
Yes there is. The rules state you can only use the racetrack as defined by the thick white lines. It's true that the outside seldom gives an advantage whereas cutting a corner is obviously quicker, but the rules don't differentiate.

F1boat
30th August 2009, 16:11
Wrong! There is a rule about not gaining any advantage if you put all four wheels outside the track. Overtaking is an advantage.

ioan, not to say something, but the move of Kimi was not investigated by the stewards, was not even commented by journos so far and obviously is not illegal. Or there would have been huge outcry. Fisi didn't even mention it. Out commentators didn't mention it.
Kimi drove a great race. There can be no question about this.

keysersoze
30th August 2009, 16:13
Fisi didn't even mention it.

He probably didn't see it. :p

truefan72
30th August 2009, 16:14
Wrong! There is a rule about not gaining any advantage if you put all four wheels outside the track. Overtaking is an advantage. good point.

If you remember Hamilton in magney cours, he had to take evasive action to avoid running into the back of webber and was called in to serve a drive through penalty. What is the difference here?

CaptainRaiden
30th August 2009, 16:14
If kimi can simply go off the track, with no cars touching him, allowing him to accelerate past other cars and have an easier entrance into eau rouge then at the very lease he should be made to give back a few spots. That move was simple not legal by any standard

I didn't know you have to have a car "touch" you to go off track. I think it's pretty clear that he made a mistake, braked very late, and to avoid touching Trulli, went off track.

The major fact that everybody is overlooking here is that he didn't gain any places by going off track. He only gained them after Eau Rouge, which he would have with his KERS button anyway. So, I don't see why he deserves a penalty.

HenryM
30th August 2009, 16:15
Fisichella.. and Raikkonen

F1boat
30th August 2009, 16:15
good point.

If you remember Hamilton in magney cours, he had to take evasive action to avoid running into the back of webber and was called in to serve a drive through penalty. What is the difference here?

I don't remember Hamilton in France but I trust the stewards and when they have decided not to interfere, I am happy.

F1boat
30th August 2009, 16:16
I didn't know you have to have a car "touch" you to go off track. I think it's pretty clear that he made a mistake, braked very late, and to avoid touching Trully, went off track.

The major fact that everybody is overlooking here is that he didn't gain any places by going off track. He only gained them after Eau Rouge, which he would have with his KERS button anyway. So, I don't see why he deserves a penalty.

Good point :)

wedge
30th August 2009, 16:16
Yes there is. The rules state you can only use the racetrack as defined by the thick white lines. It's true that the outside seldom gives an advantage whereas cutting a corner is obviously quicker, but the rules don't differentiate.

Then lets see it because so far the Stewards have done sod all with this interpretation.

ioan
30th August 2009, 16:18
ioan, not to say something, but the move of Kimi was not investigated by the stewards, was not even commented by journos so far and obviously is not illegal. Or there would have been huge outcry. Fisi didn't even mention it. Out commentators didn't mention it.
Kimi drove a great race. There can be no question about this.

You already said too much, and nothing that is logic.
You obviously don't know the rules and you do not remember when others have got penalties for going of the track and gaining an advantage. Spa last year, rings any bells?

Here the commentators mentioned it and one of them was Alex Wurz whom I trust over any crappy commentator you might get on your broadcast.

The stewards this week have been either drunk or in the pocket of Bernie, I certainly hope these stewards will never been asked to oversee a F1 race, as they either don't know the rules, don't care about there rules or about fair play.

keysersoze
30th August 2009, 16:19
The major fact that everybody is overlooking here is that he didn't gain any places by going off track. He only gained them after Eau Rouge, which he would have with his KERS button anyway. So, I don't see why he deserves a penalty.

Is that really a fact? I'd say he got a massive advantage by being able to take a wider radius (and therefore get his revs up quicker) out of La Source on the run up to Eau Rouge and down the Kimmel--and then you throw in the KERS, which compounded his advantage.

His massive speed down the straight may have caused him to miss his braking point, which contributed to his awful exit speed and Trulli's wreck.

jas123f1
30th August 2009, 16:21
Kimi, Fisi and Vettel - 3 drivers I like.
Kimi was clever, Fisi was quicker but it's not that easy go past a Kers car - Vettel looks like a comming champion. Nice drive of every one.
Driver of the race was Kimi - because he won.

Dave B
30th August 2009, 16:22
Then lets see it because so far the Stewards have done sod all with this interpretation.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/0F0F8C66C7F4661DC125753C0056E87E/$FILE/1-2009%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2012-12-2008.pdf


30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits. [/*:m:4vct4hai]This was the same rule which saw Hamilton penalised in Spa last year - see here (http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43853) for example.

F1boat
30th August 2009, 16:24
Kimi, Fisi and Vettel - 3 drivers I like.
Kimi was clever, Fisi was quicker but it's not that easy go past a Kers car - Vettel looks like a comming champion. Nice drive of every one.
Driver of the race was Kimi - because he won.

Well said.

ioan
30th August 2009, 16:28
I didn't know you have to have a car "touch" you to go off track. I think it's pretty clear that he made a mistake, braked very late, and to avoid touching Trulli, went off track.

Even than a mistake isn't supposed to put you 2nd from 5th. :rolleyes:

Robinho
30th August 2009, 16:34
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/0F0F8C66C7F4661DC125753C0056E87E/$FILE/1-2009%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2012-12-2008.pdf


30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits. [/*:m:sd9tcaqy]This was the same rule which saw Hamilton penalised in Spa last year - see here (http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43853) for example.

like i said earlier, i can only assume that the demarcation of the circuit is not the white line at La Source, but the fence. otherwise i think there should be someone looking at it, or another driver or team complaining, as it was very obvious.

if the ruling is that the white line is the demarcation, and the in car shows Kimi not having to avoid anything then he should be rightly screwed for it, but i have a feeling that it isn't the case here (no evidence, just my opinion)

Dave B
30th August 2009, 16:36
like i said earlier, i can only assume that the demarcation of the circuit is not the white line at La Source, but the fence. otherwise i think there should be someone looking at it, or another driver or team complaining, as it was very obvious.

if the ruling is that the white line is the demarcation, and the in car shows Kimi not having to avoid anything then he should be rightly screwed for it, but i have a feeling that it isn't the case here (no evidence, just my opinion)
At any corner of any racetrack the white line is the demarcation. I have no idea why Kimi wasn't investigated (nor Jenson or Luca), but there you go. He's got away with it.

truefan72
30th August 2009, 16:36
like i said earlier, i can only assume that the demarcation of the circuit is not the white line at La Source, but the fence. otherwise i think there should be someone looking at it, or another driver or team complaining, as it was very obvious.

if the ruling is that the white line is the demarcation, and the in car shows Kimi not having to avoid anything then he should be rightly screwed for it, but i have a feeling that it isn't the case here (no evidence, just my opinion)

comedy

Robinho
30th August 2009, 16:40
comedy

thanks dear,

its only a supposition on my part, based on something i may or may not have heard in the past - but it makes a bit of sense here given that no-one within F1 (so far) seems remotely bothered about what Kimi did - given that Kimi robber Force of their first points previously in Monaco last year i'm sure they'd have no problem protesting the result and taking the win if they thought there was anything untoward going on.

if someone from the stewards looks at it, or someone comes out and says that it was a blatant rule bend than it looks to me like there is some kind of dispensation going on at that corner, especially during the first lap - i could be quite wrong, but it adds up for me, now what is 2 + 2 again? :p

UltimateDanGTR
30th August 2009, 16:44
Fisi was my driver of the day. he would have won if kimi had not had kers. or if force india had kers for that matter. for much of the race he looked faster than kimi, not bad, not bad at all.

ioan
30th August 2009, 16:47
At any corner of any racetrack the white line is the demarcation.

Exactly!
And to make it complete:
Let's make things clear:


30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 2-2008.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/0F0F8C66C7F4661DC125753C0056E87E/$FILE/1-2009%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2012-12-2008.pdf)

The FIA International Sporting Code Regulation Appendix L says in CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS:


2. Overtaking
c)Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt:
- the white lines defining the track edges are considered to bepart of the track but the kerbs are not, and ;
- a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the carremains in contact with the track.

Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... .07.20.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/2A9404B6E4C8FE4EC12575FA00440479/$FILE/Annexe%20L_2009_09.07.20.pdf)

You can't say that I didn't show you what the rules say, and I might add it's very detailed and clear for once!

The rules are the rules and should be applied in the same way to everyone be it Lewis Hamilton in 2008 (and I'm not a fan of his) or Kimi Raikkonen in 2009 (and I'm a huge Ferrari fan).

wedge
30th August 2009, 16:48
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/0F0F8C66C7F4661DC125753C0056E87E/$FILE/1-2009%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2012-12-2008.pdf


30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits. [/*:m:uvwnhbbd]This was the same rule which saw Hamilton penalised in Spa last year - see here (http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43853) for example.

Indeed you are right but no one has been penalised for those kind of manouvres, mainly cutting corners/chicanes.

ioan
30th August 2009, 16:50
Fisi was my driver of the day. he would have won if kimi had not had kers. or if force india had kers for that matter. for much of the race he looked faster than kimi, not bad, not bad at all.

And he drove in a fair manner too!
Go Fisi, you should have won today! Hope to see you in a Ferrari in 2 weeks time! :up:

ioan
30th August 2009, 16:50
Indeed you are right but no one has been penalised for those kind of manouvres, mainly cutting corners/chicanes.

Sure they were!
Don't remember Spa last season?
What about Monza last season than? :rolleyes:

wedge
30th August 2009, 16:54
Sure they were!
Don't remember Spa last season?
What about Monza last season than? :rolleyes:

Hamilton was forced wide and cut the second part of chicane

What happened in Monza?

ioan
30th August 2009, 16:58
Hamilton was forced wide and cut the second part of chicane

What happened in Monza?

Driver who marginally (nothing similar with being 15 meters off the track like today's case) went over the curbs around the chicanes had to give back the position if they happened to be overtaking someone, and they were forbidden to attack again before a 2nd corner was passed by both cars.

VkmSpouge
30th August 2009, 16:59
Giancarlo Fisichella undoubtedly the star of the weekend.
Kimi Raikkonen also had a good race.

CaptainRaiden
30th August 2009, 17:00
Is that really a fact? I'd say he got a massive advantage by being able to take a wider radius (and therefore get his revs up quicker) out of La Source on the run up to Eau Rouge and down the Kimmel--and then you throw in the KERS, which compounded his advantage.

His massive speed down the straight may have caused him to miss his braking point, which contributed to his awful exit speed and Trulli's wreck.

Wow, you must have secret access to all of Ferrari's telemetry, since you're so sure about his "massive" speed he got only because of running wide. It's not as if he didn't brake at all, and just went straight to the run-off area and accelerated from there. He braked a bit lesser than the front runners, and because of the Toyota, had to run wide. He also took a longer route if you noticed. If he still would have tried to turn regardless, he would have spun. Ooh, decision decision, to spin off and stuff your race on the first corner, or to go wide? No brainer.

And again, I must emphasize that he didn't gain any places at La Source by doing that, so I don't see why there is a need for any penalty.


Even than a mistake isn't supposed to put you 2nd from 5th. :rolleyes:

He was next to Trulli by La Source, so in fact he was 3rd already. Maybe see the start replay again, and ease up on the way you've been abusing the :rolleyes: smiley for so long. :p

wedge
30th August 2009, 17:00
Driver who marginally (nothing similar with being 15 meters off the track like today's case) went over the curbs around the chicanes had to give back the position if they happened to be overtaking someone, and they were forbidden to attack again before a 2nd corner was passed by both cars.

???

Sounds like someone cut the chicane.

ioan
30th August 2009, 17:04
???

Sounds like someone cut the chicane.

No they didn't in fact they had 2 wheels on the track inside the white line.
Sounds to me that after giving a seat to Badoer Ferrari aren't covering themselves with glory by stealing a win from Force India with such illegal moves. :s

I'm very disappointed to be honest.

CaptainRaiden
30th August 2009, 17:09
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.

So, again, he didn't "GAIN" any places at La Source. Did he gain any advantage? That depends on whether the car telemetry shows he has significantly higher top speed than both Trulli and Kubica going into Eau Rouge. After Eau Rouge, it was the KERS button.

I still don't know how possibly he can be penalized for what happened at La Source, when clearly he didn't gain any places, and there is no evidence he gained a very clear advantage.

christophulus
30th August 2009, 17:17
At any corner of any racetrack the white line is the demarcation.

True, they even had spotters in Valencia to make sure no one went fully off the track exiting a corner, and put astroturf down on some turns to stop it happening. But that's what happens when every piece of run off is tarmac-ed over for "safety!"

keysersoze
30th August 2009, 17:27
Wow, you must have secret access to all of Ferrari's telemetry, since you're so sure about his "massive" speed he got only because of running wide. It's not as if he didn't brake at all, and just went straight to the run-off area and accelerated from there. He braked a bit lesser than the front runners, and because of the Toyota, had to run wide. He also took a longer route if you noticed. If he still would have tried to turn regardless, he would have spun. Ooh, decision decision, to spin off and stuff your race on the first corner, or to go wide? No brainer.

And again, I must emphasize that he didn't gain any places at La Source by doing that, so I don't see why there is a need for any penalty.



He was next to Trulli by La Source, so in fact he was 3rd already. Maybe see the start replay again, and ease up on the way you've been abusing the :rolleyes: smiley for so long. :p

I don't need access to telemetry to know that a car loses revs in tight radius turns. The reports for this race actually talked about a driver getting squirrely out of La Source on lap one and losing places. I think it was Heidfeld, who cut the turn extremely tight.

Therefore . . .

If Kimi's radius is wider he loses less revs. :eek:

This is chapter one in almost any driving book.

You keep on saying "in fact" this "in fact" that. He wasn't "in fact" in front of Trulli. He and Jarno and Nick went three abreast into La Source. Nick had the ideal line for the first part of Eau Rouge BUT . . . Kimi doesn't stay on the track.

If KR goes into the run-off area at the end of the Kimmel Straight that's caused, most likely, by missing the braking point. The principle for optimum lap time is "slow-in fast-out." Kimi was fast-in, slow-out. The result is that Jarno, who utilized the slow-in fast-out principle, caught Kimi too quickly to react (the exit is quite narrow) and really had very little room to avoid the Finn.

F1boat
30th August 2009, 17:31
So, again, he didn't "GAIN" any places at La Source.

No use, X. No matter what Kimi is doing, for some so called Ferrari fans, it is wrong. Time to use the ignore list function, really.

ioan
30th August 2009, 17:33
I don't need access to telemetry to know that a car loses revs in tight radius turns. The reports for this race actually talked about a driver getting squirrely out of La Source on lap one and losing places. I think it was Heidfeld, who cut the turn extremely tight.

Therefore . . .

If Kimi's radius is wider he loses less revs. :eek:

This is chapter one in almost any driving book.

You keep on saying "in fact" this "in fact" that. He wasn't "in fact" in front of Trulli. He and Jarno and Nick went three abreast into La Source. Nick had the ideal line for the first part of Eau Rouge BUT . . . Kimi doesn't stay on the track.

If KR goes into the run-off area at the end of the Kimmel Straight that's caused, most likely, by missing the braking point. The principle for optimum lap time is "slow-in fast-out." Kimi was fast-in, slow-out. The result is that Jarno, who utilized the slow-in fast-out principle, caught Kimi too quickly to react (the exit is quite narrow) and really had very little room to avoid the Finn.

Exactly.
You are losing time though, either X or F1boat have no idea about racing, they are just fanboys who love to watch their TV sets and if the show is good they wouldn't care about rules, fair play or common sense. ;)

CaptainRaiden
30th August 2009, 18:00
You keep on saying "in fact" this "in fact" that. He wasn't "in fact" in front of Trulli. He and Jarno and Nick went three abreast into La Source. Nick had the ideal line for the first part of Eau Rouge BUT . . . Kimi doesn't stay on the track.

If KR goes into the run-off area at the end of the Kimmel Straight that's caused, most likely, by missing the braking point. The principle for optimum lap time is "slow-in fast-out." Kimi was fast-in, slow-out. The result is that Jarno, who utilized the slow-in fast-out principle, caught Kimi too quickly to react (the exit is quite narrow) and really had very little room to avoid the Finn.

Okay, first of all, let me quote myself.


He was [b]next[b] to Trulli by La Source, so in fact he was 3rd already. Maybe see the start replay again, and ease up on the way you've been abusing the :rolleyes: smiley for so long. :p

And if you had the patience to read through my earlier posts, you would have realized I already mentioned them three going abreast into La Source.

Now, since you seem to be so hell bent on believing that this deserved penalty, and as you yourself said, you don't need telemetry to make up your mind, probably you know better than the stewards or any of the other teams or drivers, who, as of yet STILL haven't protested. Maybe you ought to go and protest against Kimi and demand a penalty being an armchair expert.

Once again, he didn't gain any places while off track or when he rejoined the track, and hence, no penalties. As simple as that.

CaptainRaiden
30th August 2009, 18:07
No use, X. No matter what Kimi is doing, for some so called Ferrari fans, it is wrong. Time to use the ignore list function, really.

Oh hell yeah, I'm seriously thinking about using it. Like I said in another thread, arguing with close minded hypocrites is like playing a trumpet in front of a buffalo. A huge waste of time. ;)

OT: Wassup boat man? How are ya? Long time no see. I'll PM you soon about a new venture coming up.


Exactly.
You are losing time though, either X or F1boat have no idea about racing, they are just fanboys who love to watch their TV sets and if the show is good they wouldn't care about rules, fair play or common sense. ;)

Really? Says the one who spends 23.5 hours of his day at this forum. The rest half an hour spent in front of the Schumacher-hugging-Massa poster on the wall.

I don't like to divulge too much personal information, but I've done some actual racing in my country's National Karting Championships, so I'd say I know a thing or two about real racing. Of course, no F1 experience, and hence I don't claim to be the know-all God of racing, who beats Road Rash on his Win 95. :rolleyes:

Dzeidzei
30th August 2009, 18:16
No they didn't in fact they had 2 wheels on the track inside the white line.
Sounds to me that after giving a seat to Badoer Ferrari aren't covering themselves with glory by stealing a win from Force India with such illegal moves. :s

I'm very disappointed to be honest.

And therefore you proove without a shread of a doubt that youre not a true tifoso.

Come on, he drove a great race, didnt do a single mistake and put Ferrari back on the 1st podium. And youre disappointed?

If I was so misplaced, I´d seek help.

ioan
30th August 2009, 18:27
And therefore you proove without a shread of a doubt that youre not a true tifoso.

Come on, he drove a great race, didnt do a single mistake and put Ferrari back on the 1st podium. And youre disappointed?

Winning by such means is nothing to brag about, honestly.

BTW, first of all I try to be a human being with common sense, than I'm many other things before being a tifoso. However if you said I'm not a Kimi fanboy than I would have wholeheartedly agreed.

And before I forget he made a mistake in Les Combes a mistake that triggered Jarno's demise.

Saint Devote
30th August 2009, 18:46
I'd say both Barrichello and Vettel.

jimakos
30th August 2009, 19:22
Of course Kimi Raikkonen... :p

DexDexter
30th August 2009, 19:22
Driver of the race: Kimi Räikkönen. This is the man Monzemelo wants to get rid of. :confused:


And therefore you proove without a shread of a doubt that youre not a true tifoso.

Come on, he drove a great race, didnt do a single mistake and put Ferrari back on the 1st podium. And youre disappointed?

If I was so misplaced, I´d seek help.

Ignore him.

DexDexter
30th August 2009, 19:23
And therefore you proove without a shread of a doubt that youre not a true tifoso.

Come on, he drove a great race, didnt do a single mistake and put Ferrari back on the 1st podium. And youre disappointed?

If I was so misplaced, I´d seek help.

Ignore him.

Saint Devote
30th August 2009, 19:37
I'd say that both Raikonnen and Fisichella were drivers of the WEEKEND but of the race, no.

jimakos
30th August 2009, 19:42
I'd say that both Raikonnen and Fisichella were drivers of the WEEKEND but of the race, no.

What exactly do you mean?

jens
30th August 2009, 21:01
Fisichella by a mile!!! :up: :bounce: What a fantastic weekend! Reminiscent of his stunning 2001 drive, when he splitted two McLarens to get onto the podium in a Benetton. I was even disappointed in the end, because I was cheering so much for Fisi to see him winning the race, but wasn't meant to be. :( KERS beat him.

I also think Kovalainen did well in a heavy car after P15 in qualifying. :)

F1boat
30th August 2009, 21:02
jens, what was that race in 2001?

jas123f1
30th August 2009, 21:25
Winning by such means is nothing to brag about, honestly.

BTW, first of all I try to be a human being with common sense, than I'm many other things before being a tifoso. However if you said I'm not a Kimi fanboy than I would have wholeheartedly agreed.

And before I forget he made a mistake in Les Combes a mistake that triggered Jarno's demise.

Every Ferrari tifoso were very happy for the Kimis win - the team have worked so hard whole the season - they really deserved the win. Your antipathy to Kimi is so deep – I hope you didn’t loose your night's sleep..

ioan
30th August 2009, 21:27
Every Ferrari tifoso were very happy for the Kimis win - the team have worked so hard whole the season - they really deserved the win. Your antipathy to Kimi is so deep – I hope you didn’t loose your night's sleep..

No I didn't and I won't even lose any sleep over this, don't worry. ;)

jens
30th August 2009, 21:39
jens, what was that race in 2001?

Spa-Francorchamps again. ;) M. Schumacher took a dominant win, but Fisichella and Coulthard were fighting for P2 for quite a large part of the race. ;)

F1boat
30th August 2009, 21:41
I vaguely remember it. Nice race...

DonJippo
30th August 2009, 21:49
Here on-boards to look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS2sdXx08-Y

Dzeidzei
30th August 2009, 22:19
Winning by such means is nothing to brag about, honestly.


So MS ramming into Damon Hill to win a wdc was disgraceful and dishonest? Is that what youre saying?

That would be the first time, I guess.

Garry Walker
30th August 2009, 22:39
Kimi and Force India.


Fisi, no question about this! :up:
Special mention to Vettel for a great come back and showing that he is fastest.
.

Red Bull was the fastest car on the grid, nothing else. Vettel lost the race he should have won because he had by a clear margin the fastest car. But once again he couldnt make use of the fastest car.



And before I forget he made a mistake in Les Combes a mistake that triggered Jarno's demise.

Check your "facts", this is getting embarrassing.
Trulli hit Heidfeld, nothing to do with Kimi.



Exactly!
And to make it complete:
Let's make things clear:

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 2-2008.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/0F0F8C66C7F4661DC125753C0056E87E/$FILE/1-2009%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2012-12-2008.pdf)

The FIA International Sporting Code Regulation Appendix L says in CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS:

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... .07.20.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/2A9404B6E4C8FE4EC12575FA00440479/$FILE/Annexe%20L_2009_09.07.20.pdf)

You can't say that I didn't show you what the rules say, and I might add it's very detailed and clear for once!

The rules are the rules and should be applied in the same way to everyone be it Lewis Hamilton in 2008 (and I'm not a fan of his) or Kimi Raikkonen in 2009 (and I'm a huge Ferrari fan).

Were you calling for a penalty for Schumacher at Hockhenheim in 2003 when he overtook Trulli using the outside of the track?
What about cutting the chicane at Hungary in 2006 to stay ahead of Nick and Pedro?
What about Massa vs Kubica at 2007 in Fuji? Penalty for massa?

I know the last time I asked you something regarding Schumacher, you chose not to reply, but lets see if you are more of a man this time.

F1boat
30th August 2009, 22:50
Red Bull was the fastest car on the grid, nothing else. Vettel lost the race he should have won because he had by a clear margin the fastest car. But once again he couldnt make use of the fastest car.


In my opinion Red Bull lost the race with awful strategy. They should have tried to get Pole-position, but they tried to be wise with heavy cars and ended stupid again. Their strategy is really not good and in my opinion this is the biggest weakness of their team. They were very strong that race, not like in the UK, but very strong and they lost it with strategy. While Kimi had perfect strategy and with a perfect drive won the race!

Garry Walker
30th August 2009, 22:54
In my opinion Red Bull lost the race with awful strategy. They should have tried to get Pole-position, but they tried to be wise with heavy cars and ended stupid again. Their strategy is really not good and in my opinion this is the biggest weakness of their team. They were very strong that race, not like in the UK, but very strong and they lost it with strategy. While Kimi had perfect strategy and with a perfect drive won the race!

Vettels pace in first stint was what lost him the race.

jens
30th August 2009, 22:57
Vettel was slower in the first stint, because he was heavier than others in front. Vettel was faster (compared to front-runners) in the last stint, because he had a shorter last stint and fresher tyres.

Garry Walker
30th August 2009, 23:05
Vettel was slower in the first stint, because he was heavier than others in front. Vettel was faster (compared to front-runners) in the last stint, because he had a shorter last stint and fresher tyres.
In 2nd stint Vettel had as much fuel more than Kimi as in 1st stint, yet was able to go faster.

ShiftingGears
31st August 2009, 02:28
In the press conference, Fisichella sounded like he lost with a car that should've won, Force India or not.
Kimi was the best driver out there.

jens
31st August 2009, 15:44
In the press conference, Fisichella sounded like he lost with a car that should've won, Force India or not.
Kimi was the best driver out there.

Fisichella is an emotional driver like Barrichello. Rubens said that he could have won at the Nürburgring, but surely that would not have been possible with any strategy. And if you come so close to win, surely it's disappointing. I don't think Fisi's race could be rated worse in any way, Kimi after all made one mistake (into Les Combes on the opening lap), while Fisi made none.

ClarkFan
31st August 2009, 21:38
I think the ultimate judgement on Kimi's move is that no other teams are protesting. At least two teams have plenty of incentive to see him demoted. Force India could have their first win and Red Bull could pick up 2 points on Brawn if Kimi received even a 10 second penalty for driving around the outside at La Source. But no protests filed. Either both these teams are co-conspirators to promote Kimi and Ferrari, or what he did is not viewed as an offsense that would be penalized.

ClarkFan

P.S. And though he may not be driver of the race, Kovalainen deserves mention for a job well done. He started 15th on a heavy load, avoided the accidents, and managed his car and tires well enough to get to 6th. He gained some from the safety car, but not as much as he would have gained had Trulli stayed near the front and held up the field. He had the race that Button and Lewis had been hoping to have.

MrJan
31st August 2009, 23:13
Here on-boards to look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS2sdXx08-Y

Interesting, Coulthard reckons that there is no advantage to running wide but there was no car directly inside Kimi which would mean he had to take to the run off. I still believe that he'd have taken the lead anyway as Fisi was poor from the restart and the Ferrari had the pace out of Eau Rouge to get passed both the Beemer and Fisi on the KERS button.

Driver of the day for me was Fisi, I know that the FI was strong but he did the job well.

BDunnell
1st September 2009, 00:03
Interesting, Coulthard reckons that there is no advantage to running wide but there was no car directly inside Kimi which would mean he had to take to the run off.

But drivers have used that run-off, whether another car was there or not, for as long as I can remember. He did absolutely nothing wrong at all.

Saint Devote
1st September 2009, 02:55
In the press conference, Fisichella sounded like he lost with a car that should've won, Force India or not.
Kimi was the best driver out there.

Absolutely.

Yesterday it was Raikkonen who won that race, driving a car that was not naturally up to it.

I cannot fathom why Ferrari would want to get rid of Raikonnen and keep Massa - does not make sense.

DexDexter
1st September 2009, 09:36
Absolutely.

Yesterday it was Raikkonen who won that race, driving a car that was not naturally up to it.

I cannot fathom why Ferrari would want to get rid of Raikonnen and keep Massa - does not make sense.

Employing Badoer made no sense and still they did it so... :confused:

F1boat
1st September 2009, 10:00
Absolutely.

Yesterday it was Raikkonen who won that race, driving a car that was not naturally up to it.


Just like in 2004...

Dzeidzei
1st September 2009, 12:01
Fisichella for me... Many years away from the front and managing to keep his head during the pressure from Raikkonen.

Wasnt it the other way round? Fisi on a faster car putting pressure on Kimi? The only pressure Fisi was put under was just after the sc pulled out and that decided the race.

He still did a great job. Unless they were cheating (with bmw and toyota) like some rumours say...

jimakos
1st September 2009, 12:06
Wasnt it the other way round? Fisi on a faster car putting pressure on Kimi? The only pressure Fisi was put under was just after the sc pulled out and that decided the race.

He still did a great job. Unless they were cheating (with bmw and toyota) like some rumours say...

Total agree!
Kimi was the best driver in this race,Fisi just took a nice pole position but didn't manage to keep it up ;)

ioan
1st September 2009, 12:20
Wasnt it the other way round? Fisi on a faster car putting pressure on Kimi?

Not really. According to Kimi himself it was very easy to stay in front.

jimakos
1st September 2009, 12:23
Not really. According to Kimi himself it was very easy to stay in front.

That's my boy...
I love''iceman'' :hot:

ioan
1st September 2009, 12:24
That's my boy...
I love''iceman'' :hot:

Apparently he's taken. ;)

stevie_gerrard
1st September 2009, 12:57
Fisichella for the perfect weekend, pole and 2nd place finish in a car that was at the back a month ago. A terrific effort

Knock-on
1st September 2009, 14:34
Fisi for me. Poor old Pino is probably still drunk :D