Chicagoland Peak Indy 300

[Hoop-98]

Entry List:

http://i26.tinypic.com/11r7qbl.jpg

rh

[SarahFan]

hoop..... can you give me (us) some inside on 'gear ratios'

[Hoop-98]

hoop..... can you give me (us) some inside on 'gear ratios'

The Overall gear will be about a 3.64. That would give 227@ 10300 which is what they were reaching in the traps. With the P2P you might want a 3.67 0r a 3.69 as the 3.64 is 233 @10,600 a 3.67 or a 3.69 would put you in the 229-231 range.

Of course the slower cars will run more and i am sure now they will have 4-6 setup as normal and p2p gears.


Not sure what the Ring and Pinion ratio will be but multiply that times the trans ratio and that is the overall.

a 3.50 Ring and Pinion times a 1.05 gear is 3.675.


rh

[TURN3]

I'd just like to get this out of the way...

I see Danica taking the pole and the win this weekend.

[Hoop-98]

I'd just like to get this out of the way...

I see Danica taking the pole and the win this weekend.

As silly as DF's predictions are I find the opposition no more accurate.

She is a top 5 oval driver and mid pack (12th place) RC driver. Her Oval results are about right, her RC results are negatively impacted by her team this year.

Overall she is top 10, certainly not at the front, or at the back.

IMHO based on observing her results.

rh

[TURN3]

As silly as DF's predictions are I find the opposition no more accurate.

She is a top 5 oval driver and mid pack (12th place) RC driver. Her Oval results are about right, her RC results are negatively impacted by her team this year.

Overall she is top 10, certainly not at the front, or at the back.

IMHO based on observing her results.

rh

Wow, that is about the dumbest thing you've ever posted. You obviously have an immesnse amount of knowledge of engineering and I respect that. But come on, be at least halfway serious. She's a top 5 oval driver now? Her team impacts her lack of RC results? That is just ridiculous. I'm not going to turn this into a Danica thread, there is plenty of that in her return to AGR thread. I only posted that because I miss the humor already having lost our other rosie glasses wearer.

[Hoop-98]

Wow, that is about the dumbest thing you've ever posted. You obviously have an immesnse amount of knowledge of engineering and I respect that. But come on, be at least halfway serious. She's a top 5 oval driver now? Her team impacts her lack of RC results? That is just ridiculous. I'm not going to turn this into a Danica thread, there is plenty of that in her return to AGR thread. I only posted that because I miss the humor already having lost our other rosie glasses wearer.

As objectively as I can look at her results, for instance where she was at Sonoma last year, that is my evaluation.

If you want to provide some data to back up your opinion feel free to do so. The facts of her on track performance are what they are. Not a front runner , certainly not a back marker.

To paraphrase, 'show me the data", that supports your opinion T3.

rh

[TURN3]

As objectively as I can look at her results, for instance where she was at Sonoma last year, that is my evaluation.

If you want to provide some data to back up your opinion feel free to do so. The facts of her on track performance are what they are. Not a front runner , certainly not a back marker.

To paraphrase, 'show me the data", that supports your opinion T3.

rh

Again I don't want to get into it here in this thread. If you want to take it to private message then sure, I'd be happy to discuss at length. Food for thought though...you think she is a better oval racer than her teammate TK? Based on results right? I guess the lackluster equipment you claim she has on RC's is the same repainted car that keeps snapping in half or catching on fire for TK. Points don't always tell the entire story now do they? And, if Marco hadn't taken out Rahal last weekend, they both very likely might have caught DP in the standings. Funny, she is the 5th best driver in the world as of today, right?

[Hoop-98]

I really didn't say most of the things you are quoting T3, and I stand by my opinion, which didn't include saying she was better than TK.

No reason to go to PM, opinions are merely opinions. My opinion is that DF and you are both way off on Danica, that's all.

I have a lot of data to support that, but I doubt that would convince either DF or you of much as you both are , IMO, so emotional about her.


Stating an opinion is just that , I have stated mine, readers will judge them as they may, i have not the time nor the desire to try and make you believe mine,

Your Mileage Will vary, Happy Motoring!

rh

[NickFalzone]

I'm expecting a good race this weekend, even better than Kentucky. Could put a title contender up with a clear lead, or almost knock one of them out of contention if something goes wrong.

Here's VS track preview:

http://www.versus.com/indycartrackpreview

and IndyCar 101 on wheel mount assembly:

http://www.versus.com/indycar101

[Hoop-98]

Sure hope weather improves, i am in the area today and it's been pretty bad. Definitely looking forward to this race!

rh

[speeddurango]

I have a lot of data to support that

Maybe showing valid and insightful datas would be the only way to be convincible really, since the most obvious evidence which everybody can gather is not in strong favor of Danica Patrick at all.

[grungex]

As objectively as I can look at her results, for instance where she was at Sonoma last year, that is my evaluation.

If you want to provide some data to back up your opinion feel free to do so. The facts of her on track performance are what they are. Not a front runner , certainly not a back marker.

To paraphrase, 'show me the data", that supports your opinion T3.

rh

Just curious -- do you ever watch actual races, or just "data"?

[Hoop-98]

Today Cloudy. Rain likely in the morning...then a chance of showers in the afternoon. Highs in the upper 60s. North winds 10 to 15 mph. Chance of precipitation 70 percent.



http://i25.tinypic.com/a1mp08.jpg

rh

[SarahFan]

field within .72of a sec on each other....

[Hoop-98]

http://i25.tinypic.com/212d0dk.jpg

rh

[drewdawg727]

Anyone watching indycar.com's video? I got a black screen, have they not turned the cameras on yet? We're starting in 4 minutes..

[harvick#1]

wow, Chicago has always seemed to be the perfect track for the IRL. I remember last year, they were 3 wide by 3 by 3 by 3 by 3 and it was a breathtaking site to see, and even Duno was leading last year :p :

[Hoop-98]

Q is now@ 2 central..

[grungex]

I don't why I'm so slow.

P10, baby! :p

[jackmart]

so they already did quals?

[Hoop-98]

Quals:

http://i30.tinypic.com/m91xyr.jpg

rh

[TURN3]

Based on the action in practice, I'd say there is going to be a really exciting race tomorrow night. Lots of close action and passing. Looks like NHL and KV are officially competitive on the speedways. The rules changes have done more than just create for passing, they've brought the entire field closer together...which is great.

[Hoop-98]

I'm looking forward to this one. I think they will have the gearing sorted out better to use the 300 RPM, we shall see!

rh

[drewdawg727]

What in the world is wrong with doornbos....goodness gracious. Is he even trying?

[chuck34]

What in the world is wrong with doornbos....goodness gracious. Is he even trying?

Worse than Milka? He can't be trying. Either that or he had some sort of problem.

[beachbum]

Worse than Milka? He can't be trying. Either that or he had some sort of problem.In qualifying, it is all about the car and DRR has a good oval setup. HVM, not so much.

[indycool]

Saturday papers:

Chicago Tribune:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sns-ap-car-nascar-trucks,0,409542.story

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/motorracing/chi-29-auto-local-shops-aug29,0,6571182.story

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sns-ap-car-irl-chicagoland-qualifying,0,7825711.story?obref=obinsite

Chicago Sun-Times

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/autoracing/1741152,CST-SPT-irl29.article

Joliet Herald-News:

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/1741401,4_2_JO29_QUALIFYING_S1-090829.article

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/1741404,4_2_JO29_IRLPREV_S1-090829.article

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/1739618,4_2_JO28_CARPENTER_S1-090828.article

Versus.com

http://www.versus.com/nw/article/view/82351/?tf=bruce_martin.tpl

http://www.versus.com/indycar (Briscoe video)

Indianapolis Star:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090829/SPORTS0107/908290342/1004/SPORTS/Briscoe+gets+teammate+s+assist+now++but+later+...+ ?

[Chamoo]

What in the world is wrong with doornbos....goodness gracious. Is he even trying?

I'm thinking when he signed on for 2010 with HVM he is expecting to see some improvements over the winter that we won't see for the rest of 2009.

[DBell]

What in the world is wrong with doornbos....goodness gracious. Is he even trying?

I thunk it's the team that's lacking at this race. His teamate is only 2 spots ahead in 20th and the times are very close.

[NickFalzone]

Yep, HVM just hasn't put the money towards oval development on either car. At a track like Chicagoland more so than most of the tracks on the calendar, lack of wind-tunnel/aero work is going to be what separates the best from the worst. There should be some good racing tonight, but who's up front and who isn't is so much more a factor of team spending than driver ability. On the road courses, the HVM cars seems to be at least mid-pack.

[drewdawg727]

I am not even talking about the fact that he qualified worse than Milka. Look at Oriol Servia in the same car. Doornbos barely cracked the top 10 ever, and Oriol is STARTING there.

[TURN3]

I am not even talking about the fact that he qualified worse than Milka. Look at Oriol Servia in the same car. Doornbos barely cracked the top 10 ever, and Oriol is STARTING there.

That isn't exactly true. Doornbos was threatening the top 8 on these track types. He was outside of front row at Kansas and very very fast at Indy before the crashes. I've felt since then the entire NHL team hasn't been quite the same. This is their "home" race so I'm sure they've got all the best equipment on hand. Plus, this is only the 2nd race with the new aero package so Robert never seen it at NHL.

[indycool]

Could Doornbos be overrated?

[TURN3]

Could Doornbos be overrated?

I guess that would be relative to a lot of variables. I'm not a huge fan of his but he has a pedigree superior to most on the grid. What he does on ovals is irrelevant at this point but I've been very surprised not to see him do well on road courses. He's made no secret this has been the worst of his professional career and who knows what all the inner workings were at NHL.

[SarahFan]

inner workings at NHL?

That's an intersting statement..... There not a team that has run ridebuyers....That has to be an ajustment for them... How much time $$$$ and manpowe do you throw at that particular car for instance

Sure there are other factors that take getting used to for a tteam

[MDS]

Do we have to take a page from NASCAR's playbook? Can't you just start a race when say you're going to start a race instead of this "We'll publish a start time and then wait 30 minutes to start the race, but not actually tell people when the race starts so they have to sit through our annoying pre-race hype Shatner-fest." Really? Can't you just publish an approximate start time and, yaknow, start a race then? Really? You can't?

[Hoop-98]

Do we have to take a page from NASCAR's playbook? Can't you just start a race when say you're going to start a race instead of this "We'll publish a start time and then wait 30 minutes to start the race, but not actually tell people when the race starts so they have to sit through our annoying pre-race hype Shatner-fest." Really? Can't you just publish an approximate start time and, yaknow, start a race then? Really? You can't?


Like this?

http://i25.tinypic.com/a1mp08.jpg (http://i25.tinypic.com/a1mp08.jpg)

rh

[MDS]

Uh, hoop, it says 9 p.m to 11 p.m EST race, but they're at least a half hour away from the start. I don't get why they want a 10 p.m start time for this thing. If you're going to start the race at 10 p.m. why not midnight? Starting a race that late you've pretty much already required that anyone who lives on the East Coast has to choose between going out and watching your race. It's dark at 8 p.m. in Chicago, the later you hold it the less families you're going to have.

Also, it makes no sense to have an hour of cheese-laden pre-show when you have a decently strong lead in like MMA cage fighting. Those fans aren't going to stick around an hour for something this annoying.

I don't get what they're hoping to accomplish with these late start times. A 3 p.m. start time for an east coast race is two hours too late. a 10 p.m. start time on the East Cost is about three hours too late. I'd also think that 9 p.m. is a bit late to start a race if you want young families to come out as well. If you give casual fans a choice, they won't choose you. If that coveted 21-35 demo has to choose between going to the going to the bar with their friends or staying in until midnight to watch a less-than-popular sporting event you're going to lose them, and your demos are going to scew older. You don't gain anything by starting a race at 7 p.m. over 4 p.m. on the west coast.

I've got plans to go out at 11 and was hoping I could watch the whole race. Guess I have to choose, but its okay because I'm getting a lot of useless information that I don't care about in the slightest, and watching the broadcast equivalent of a High School JV team stumble through a pre-race program comes just short of wanting to rip my eyes out with knitting needles.

[Hoop-98]

Uh, hoop, it says 9 p.m to 11 p.m EST race, but they're at least a half hour away from the start. I don't get why they want a 10 p.m start time for this thing. If you're going to start the race at 10 p.m. why not midnight? Starting a race that late you've pretty much already required that anyone who lives on the East Coast has to choose between going out and watching your race. It's dark at 8 p.m. in Chicago, the later you hold it the less families you're going to have.

Also, it makes no sense to have an hour of cheese-laden pre-show when you have a decently strong lead in like MMA cage fighting. Those fans aren't going to stick around an hour for something this annoying.

I don't get what they're hoping to accomplish with these late start times. A 3 p.m. start time for an east coast race is two hours too late. a 10 p.m. start time on the East Cost is about three hours too late. I'd also think that 9 p.m. is a bit late to start a race if you want young families to come out as well. If you give casual fans a choice, they won't choose you. If that coveted 21-35 demo has to choose between going to the going to the bar with their friends or staying in until midnight to watch a less-than-popular sporting event you're going to lose them, and your demos are going to scew older. You don't gain anything by starting a race at 7 p.m. over 4 p.m. on the west coast.

I've got plans to go out at 11 and was hoping I could watch the whole race. Guess I have to choose, but its okay because I'm getting a lot of useless information that I don't care about in the slightest, and watching the broadcast equivalent of a High School JV team stumble through a pre-race program comes just short of wanting to rip my eyes out with knitting needles.

That schedule was Central time as has been discussed.


rh

[MDS]

Yeah, but if you're going to list a start time on your website in EST, its a little misleading.

I don't know who they're kidding, but all they're doing with an hour of pre-race hype is losing viewers.

[TURN3]

Yeah, but if you're going to list a start time on your website in EST, its a little misleading.

I don't know who they're kidding, but all they're doing with an hour of pre-race hype is losing viewers.


Everybody complained we didn't get any pre-race or post-race coverage like NASCAR and now people are complaining? Going nuts on Twitter too. What they should do is have a Pre-race show separate from the race, at least then people can make their choices.

[NickFalzone]

Hm, every listing I've seen for this race said the show starts at 9 pm on VS, ET. I just assumed, like every other race this year, that the 9 pm start time is when the pre-race show started. I don't mind watching it this late on tv but wouldn't want to be in the stands for a race starting at 10pm on a Sat. Technically 10pm is still considered prime-time programming time period on the broadcast nets.

[NickFalzone]

NASCAR always lists their start times the same way as IndyCar, their start time listed is when the prerace begins. However if you go to the NASCAR website a couple hours before the race they usually have the estimated "green flag" time.

That being said the stands look very full tonight except for some gaps on the far left stands, so good for them to come out this late.

[Hoop-98]

green green, I always get the schedule, it seems to have the correct times.

rh

[Hoop-98]

http://i25.tinypic.com/2mo78k5.jpg

[Hoop-98]

http://i25.tinypic.com/2nanyi1.jpg

[Hoop-98]

http://i32.tinypic.com/2a6mfcl.jpg

[Hoop-98]

http://i27.tinypic.com/2j4a9te.jpg

[Hoop-98]

http://i30.tinypic.com/1628n4k.jpg

[Hoop-98]

Helio broke something, then hit the wall.


http://i29.tinypic.com/3508ig4.jpg

[Hoop-98]

Briscoe by .0077, top 4 under a tenth.

http://i26.tinypic.com/i25yso.jpg

rh

[NickFalzone]

Well I thought that was the best oval race this season. I was hoping Franchitti would get it, but Penske just had the faster car even after that bad pit. Dixon and Franchitti are now going to have to pull it together to get wins in Motegi and Homestead, I think they're around 20 points back apiece.

[garyshell]

Uh, hoop, it says 9 p.m to 11 p.m EST race, but they're at least a half hour away from the start. I don't get why they want a 10 p.m start time for this thing.

Don't look now but Chicago is in the CENTRAL time zone.

Gary

[garyshell]

Great race!!!! What a nice charge by Moraes and Graham at the end.

What happened to Sarah to prompt 6 pit stops. That reall hurt her day. I noticed too under yellows she was running one or two gears LOWER than the other four I had on the viewer. Odd. Seems like a waste of gas.

Gary

[speeddurango]

She went a lap down early on when the race was going on a 90+ laps green flag stint, and she basically stayed there all race long since.

[garyshell]

She went a lap down early on when the race was going on a 90+ laps green flag stint, and she basically stayed there all race long since.


But that doesn't explain the 6 pit stops.

Gary

[Chamoo]

But that doesn't explain the 6 pit stops.

Gary

Maybe testing some different things for Homestead and 2010?

[ozrevhead]

BOO YEAH! :D

I can actually breath now :D That was a nail biter. Ryan cant get too complacent as one crash and his lead is wiped

AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE! O1! O1! O1!

[beachbum]

But that doesn't explain the 6 pit stops.

GaryOne of the stops came as the caution came out and they probably didn't finish the stop as they came in with the rest of the field on the caution. She may not have made the commit line before the yellow came on. One came under caution when there were only a couple cars one lap down and it didn't change her place on the track, so why not top off.

Like Viso, they got stuck behind RHR in the early part of the race which separated that pack from the others and then that pack all pitted early and got burned on the first caution. After that, she and Viso could run with the mid-pack teams. She even passed Helio and DP in that pack, fairly easily, but by then was a lap down.

[indycool]

Chicago Tribune (AP):

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sns-ap-car-irl-chicagoland,0,3728920.story

Chicago Sun-Times:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/autoracing/1743399,CST-SPT-irlnt30.article

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/autoracing/1743136,CST-SPT-irl30.article

Joliet Herald-News:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/autoracing/1743136,CST-SPT-irl30.article

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/1743115,4_2_JO30_BRISCOE_S1-090830.article

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/1743114,4_2_JO30_LIGHTS_S1-090830.article

Bloomington Pantagraph (AP):

http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/article_930b512a-951b-11de-a26d-001cc4c03286.html

Versus.com:

http://www.versus.com/nw/article/view/82358/?tf=bruce_martin.tpl

SpeedTV.com (from indycar.com)

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indy-lights-herrington-wins-race-as-hildebrand-wins-title/

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-briscoe-wins-chicago-by-0077/

[SarahFan]

barn burner

ryan is going to be tough to beat down the stretch

[ChicagocrewIRL]

WOW WOW WOW !!! Heard more than once walking down the stairs exiting the track.... " THAT IS MORE FUN THAN NASCAR. " and " THAT WAS WAY BETTER THAN CUP RACING. "

Yes I was at the race Section 410 Row 61 and what a race. I think one of the best ever.

Marco, Graham, and Mario M. running almost 10 laps 3 wide was the shiznit !!

Tomas Scheckter charging to the front ... BRAVO !!!

Ed Carpenter making move after move to go from 12th on the start to 4th 3 laps into the race made the crowd go crazy...

The atmosphere of night racing is SO COOL !!! The lights shining off the machines and the sparks generated by the skid plates ROCKED !!!

Only bad thing ... no flyover... WTF was up with that ? Oh well... that was the only bad thing about a GREAT NIGHT.

The weather didn't even matter. I didn't feel the cold because of the action on the track.

Congratulations IndyCar on a GREAT EVENT.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

WOW WOW WOW !!! Heard more than once walking down the stairs exiting the track.... " THAT IS MORE FUN THAN NASCAR. " and " THAT WAS WAY BETTER THAN CUP RACING. " I'M NOT SURE WHY I THINK NASCAR IS RACING."

Yes I was at the race Section 410 Row 61 and what a race. I think one of the best ever.

Marco, Graham, and Mario M. running almost 10 laps 3 wide was the shiznit !!

Tomas Scheckter charging to the front ... BRAVO !!!

Ed Carpenter making move after move to go from 12th on the start to 4th 3 laps into the race made the crowd go crazy...

The atmosphere of night racing is SO COOL !!! The lights shining off the machines and the sparks generated by the skid plates ROCKED !!!

Only bad thing ... no flyover... WTF was up with that ? Oh well... that was the only bad thing about a GREAT NIGHT.

The weather didn't even matter. I didn't feel the cold because of the action on the track.

Congratulations IndyCar on a GREAT EVENT.

[SoCalPVguy]

Congratulations IndyCar on a GREAT EVENT.

It was a great race, too bad nobody saw it.

[NickFalzone]

It was a great race, too bad nobody saw it.

More spitballs from the peanut gallery.

[garyshell]

One of the stops came as the caution came out and they probably didn't finish the stop as they came in with the rest of the field on the caution. She may not have made the commit line before the yellow came on. One came under caution when there were only a couple cars one lap down and it didn't change her place on the track, so why not top off.

Like Viso, they got stuck behind RHR in the early part of the race which separated that pack from the others and then that pack all pitted early and got burned on the first caution. After that, she and Viso could run with the mid-pack teams. She even passed Helio and DP in that pack, fairly easily, but by then was a lap down.


Thanks bb,

As much as I like the VS coverage (and I most assuredly DO like it), I wish they would occasionally run down the entire field, especially on pit stops.

I really miss the online graphic charts that CART had for one or two seasons. It was a grid. Down the left side was each driver in startig order then next to each a different color horizontal bar would appear progressing to the right for each lap. That bar would move up or down as the driver gained or lost a position on track. It also indicated when someone was in the pits and off course if I remember correctly. It allowed you to instantly see the status of the entire field and their progress. I belive it was an Austrailian company that developed the website then and that system. Anyone remember what it was called and/or the company behind it?

Gary

[SoCalPVguy]

More spitballs from the peanut gallery.

I think at a much higher level than you do. You're all about minutae like lap times, paintjobs, and wing angles. I am all about the furtherance of Indycar racing back to a more mainstream profile as opposed to a niche sport like bike racing on a minor digital cable TV station that mostly nobdy notices or even gets. That was a legitimate pithy comment on the poor Versus deal that will hols back Indycar from any mainstream acceptance.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

It was a great race, too bad nobody saw it.

yeah yeah yeah That's why it took an hour to get out of the parking lot and there were lines at all the concessions whenever I went to get a beer.

People who know nothing about what they are talking about should shut their yap.

I know you were talking about ratings but you could hardly say NOBODY saw it.

[beachbum]

Thanks bb,

As much as I like the VS coverage (and I most assuredly DO like it), I wish they would occasionally run down the entire field, especially on pit stops.

I really miss the online graphic charts that CART had for one or two seasons. It was a grid. Down the left side was each driver in startig order then next to each a different color horizontal bar would appear progressing to the right for each lap. That bar would move up or down as the driver gained or lost a position on track. It also indicated when someone was in the pits and off course if I remember correctly. It allowed you to instantly see the status of the entire field and their progress. I belive it was an Austrailian company that developed the website then and that system. Anyone remember what it was called and/or the company behind it?

GaryMore info is always nice, which is why I usually watch the race with a computer running and T&S up, along with any video coverage available on line. Versus does a much better job than any or the previous networks, but the additional data can show more about what is happening throughout the field.

[chuck34]

I think at a much higher level than you do. You're all about minutae like lap times, paintjobs, and wing angles. I am all about the furtherance of Indycar racing back to a more mainstream profile as opposed to a niche sport like bike racing on a minor digital cable TV station that mostly nobdy notices or even gets. That was a legitimate pithy comment on the poor Versus deal that will hols back Indycar from any mainstream acceptance.

Yes, and when the IRL was on ABC (you know a free to all chanel) the growth in TV audience and at-track attendence were just EXPLODING, right?

Don't mean to add to the hijacking of the tread, but I just couldn't let that go.

[SarahFan]

More info is always nice, which is why I usually watch the race with a computer running and T&S up, along with any video coverage available on line. Versus does a much better job than any or the previous networks, but the additional data can show more about what is happening throughout the field.



VS is provideing extended coverage .... What exactly IYO is 'much better' about it?

[Mark in Oshawa]

SoCal....Don't demean the paying customer AT the track.

The TV ratings have sucked all year...tell us something we don't know, like how YOU would make the ratings higher? The race was good, people enjoyed it, and VS puts a decent TV product out that no one seems to watch. So again, explain to me how ESPN made the ratings better really when they treated the series like DIRT? (not the sanctioning body, but what you find in your back yard!)

[harvick#1]

yeah yeah yeah That's why it took an hour to get out of the parking lot.

Cause Joliet Speedway doesn't have a good exit, they lead just about everyone to Rt 53.

I was sitting at the track last year for an 1 hour + from the ARCA and IRL races. I can't imagine when its actually full how bad it is to leave.

but whos bright idea was it to make it a 9 P.M. start?

as for the race it was great to see alot off the guys used to ovals now, hopefully by next year, there will be new names winning on ovals instead of the men in red and white.

Danica showed her true skill in never getting off the bottom line and getting passed on the top line, (she has to realize that if she wants to win again, shes gonna have to make a pass first :p : )

all in all a great race and great to see Ryan win, I really hope he wins the title cause he deserves it

[garyshell]

VS is provideing extended coverage .... What exactly IYO is 'much better' about it?


Everything! What ISN'T better? More coverage, folks on pit road who are doing a great job. Folks in the booth that actually know what they are talking about and can articulate it. You seem to think it's not better, so tell us what's not to like?

Gary

[Alfa Fan]

Everything! What ISN'T better? More coverage, folks on pit road who are doing a great job. Folks in the booth that actually know what they are talking about and can articulate it. You seem to think it's not better, so tell us what's not to like?

Gary

I'll post Ken's answer for him

".x"

Dunno what x he'll use but probabily 2 or 3.

[garyshell]

I think at a much higher level than you do. You're all about minutae like lap times, paintjobs, and wing angles. I am all about the furtherance of Indycar racing back to a more mainstream profile as opposed to a niche sport like bike racing on a minor digital cable TV station that mostly nobdy notices or even gets. That was a legitimate pithy comment on the poor Versus deal that will hols back Indycar from any mainstream acceptance.

Ok, then what is the solution? Go back to ESPN/ABC and deal with starting the broadcast eight laps in because the underwater basket weaving coverage went over by 15 minutes and cut away the moment the checkers drop. It really shouldn't be that hard for a high level thinker to sort this out and suggest a viable solution, right?

Gary

[SarahFan]

Everything! What ISN'T better? More coverage, folks on pit road who are doing a great job. Folks in the booth that actually know what they are talking about and can articulate it. You seem to think it's not better, so tell us what's not to like?

Gary


a few faces have changed..... but coverage seems about the same to me...

they still cut away from action to show cars entering pit row....

they still confuse drivers/cars

field rundown is spotty at best

beekuis trumps goodyear....but besides that i dont see anything that has really changed

YMclearlyV

[garyshell]

Yep, MMclearlyV.

More cameras. Better angles. Less inane banter between the announcers. Getting Scott Goodyear and Marty Reed out of the booth, priceless!

Infinitely better pit lane coverage. I can't say I remember a cutaway from any "real" action to cover pit lane. But since pit lane is a very important part of the action, I'd call that a judgment call by the directors. It seems to me there are fewer mix ups on cars/drivers than in the past, but neither of us have any real stats to back that up.

I do agree that I'd like to see more of a field run down. For example, Sarah showed 6 pit stops on the Indyracing.com coverage but that was never mentioned on air. We never really heard much about the running order down the field. Yes there was the on screen ticker. But at a break a field rundown would be nice. Or the sections where they alternate between all the announcers with a quick blurb about each driver, would be nicer if they ran down the ENTIRE field.

But to say that "coverage seems about the same to me" seems a bit, ... how should I put this so you don't think I'm upset... like you are undervaluing the changes that have occurred. I watched a broadcast from MidOhio from last year and compared to this year's, this year's was much better. Maybe that was because the announce team from ESPN/ABC was like fingernails on a blackboard for me.

Gary

[drewdawg727]

Drewdawg thinks it was a great race too! (FWIW, that is :) )

[SarahFan]

Yep, MMclearlyV.

More cameras. Better angles. Less inane banter between the announcers. Getting Scott Goodyear and Marty Reed out of the booth, priceless!

Infinitely better pit lane coverage. I can't say I remember a cutaway from any "real" action to cover pit lane. But since pit lane is a very important part of the action, I'd call that a judgment call by the directors. It seems to me there are fewer mix ups on cars/drivers than in the past, but neither of us have any real stats to back that up.

I do agree that I'd like to see more of a field run down. For example, Sarah showed 6 pit stops on the Indyracing.com coverage but that was never mentioned on air. We never really heard much about the running order down the field. Yes there was the on screen ticker. But at a break a field rundown would be nice. Or the sections where they alternate between all the announcers with a quick blurb about each driver, would be nicer if they ran down the ENTIRE field.

But to say that "coverage seems about the same to me" seems a bit, ... how should I put this so you don't think I'm upset... like you are undervaluing the changes that have occurred. I watched a broadcast from MidOhio from last year and compared to this year's, this year's was much better. Maybe that was because the announce team from ESPN/ABC was like fingernails on a blackboard for me.

Gary

maybe we get different coverage out west

[indycool]

Agree with Gary. Bob Jenkins back in the booth holds everything together. The pit work by Arute, Lindy Thackston and Rob is valuable and timely. Do I wish a big network would do it this way? Sure.

[SoCalPVguy]

SoCal....Don't demean the paying customer AT the track.

The TV ratings have sucked all year...tell us something we don't know, like how YOU would make the ratings higher? The race was good, people enjoyed it, and VS puts a decent TV product out that no one seems to watch. So again, explain to me how ESPN made the ratings better really when they treated the series like DIRT? (not the sanctioning body, but what you find in your back yard!)

Acyually my comment wasnot only directed at the poor TV package it was also directed at the crowd attendance. While I'm sure enthusiastic, the attendance was DOWN 67% over last year. This is a direct result of Indy car's fading legacy, lack of mainstream coverage, and the assinine Versus alte staurday night starting time.

[SoCalPVguy]

Ok, then what is the solution? Go back to ESPN/ABC and deal with starting the broadcast eight laps in because the underwater basket weaving coverage went over by 15 minutes and cut away the moment the checkers drop. It really shouldn't be that hard for a high level thinker to sort this out and suggest a viable solution, right? Gary

I've given some though about what Indy car could do to increase viewership and in turn increase awareness of Indy car as a more mainstream sport, much like it was when the I500 itself got 8-9 ratings (its in the 4's now).

First get out from under Versus at any cost. Use the Direct TV threat or actual action to drop Versus as a breach of contract, figure a buy out, what ever. All races must be on brodcast or basic cable TV (ABC/ESPN) excluding halfassed basic cable like Spike. Yea Yea I know the Versus on air coverage is much better than the old ABC shows but who cares when nobody even gets the channel.

Get a title sponsor, imperative for the survival of the sport.

Using the broadcast partner, start an 'Indycar channe'l similar to what college football has with the new SEC channel.

Set up an agressive facebook and twitter campaign to attrack and interest young fans.

Run the I500 on the actual Monday holiday versus in sunday competing w/ nascar.

[garyshell]

I've given some though about what Indy car could do to increase viewership and in turn increase awareness of Indy car as a more mainstream sport, much like it was when the I500 itself got 8-9 ratings (its in the 4's now).

First get out from under Versus at any cost. Use the Direct TV threat or actual action to drop Versus as a breach of contract, figure a buy out, what ever. All races must be on brodcast or basic cable TV (ABC/ESPN) excluding halfassed basic cable like Spike. Yea Yea I know the Versus on air coverage is much better than the old ABC shows but who cares when nobody even gets the channel.

Get a title sponsor, imperative for the survival of the sport.

Using the broadcast partner, start an 'Indycar channe'l similar to what college football has with the new SEC channel.

Set up an agressive facebook and twitter campaign to attrack and interest young fans.

Run the I500 on the actual Monday holiday versus in sunday competing w/ nascar.


ABC/ESPN? Really? So you are ok with missing the first eight laps races because so pole vault event went over time? And you are ok with a cutaway the moment the checker drops? Sorry, but I guess we have to agree to disagree. ABC/ESPN sucked.

The rest I can agree with EXCEPT the Monday 500 idea. Move the start time back to the original and there is no compete. No need to go to Monday to resolve that.

Gary

[indycool]

Agree, Gary. The "500" start time was moved to attract West Coast TV viewers at a good time. Having it on Monday gives you no "rain room" at all. The "500" start time gives you LESS "rain room."

Versus is giving a LOT of QUALITY coverage. The downside is it's a small channel.

As I've said many times, it's going to take a lot of time to get it better.

[beachgirl]

ESPN was smaller than Versus when it started. Give Versus a chance.

If the races went back to ABC full-time, and they had Goodyear and Reid, I wouldn't watch at all.

[wedge]

WOW WOW WOW !!! Heard more than once walking down the stairs exiting the track.... " THAT IS MORE FUN THAN NASCAR. " and " THAT WAS WAY BETTER THAN CUP RACING. " I'M NOT SURE WHY I THINK NASCAR IS RACING."

Yes I was at the race Section 410 Row 61 and what a race. I think one of the best ever.

Marco, Graham, and Mario M. running almost 10 laps 3 wide was the shiznit !!

Tomas Scheckter charging to the front ... BRAVO !!!

Ed Carpenter making move after move to go from 12th on the start to 4th 3 laps into the race made the crowd go crazy...

The atmosphere of night racing is SO COOL !!! The lights shining off the machines and the sparks generated by the skid plates ROCKED !!!

Only bad thing ... no flyover... WTF was up with that ? Oh well... that was the only bad thing about a GREAT NIGHT.

The weather didn't even matter. I didn't feel the cold because of the action on the track.

Congratulations IndyCar on a GREAT EVENT.

Exciting?

Yes, but it was pack racing. I just couldn't help thinking about the Big One...

[chuck34]

I've given some though about what Indy car could do to increase viewership and in turn increase awareness of Indy car as a more mainstream sport, much like it was when the I500 itself got 8-9 ratings (its in the 4's now).

At least you've given some thought to this. Which is better than a lot on this board. So please don't be offended by what follows.


First get out from under Versus at any cost. Use the Direct TV threat or actual action to drop Versus as a breach of contract, figure a buy out, what ever. All races must be on brodcast or basic cable TV (ABC/ESPN) excluding halfassed basic cable like Spike. Yea Yea I know the Versus on air coverage is much better than the old ABC shows but who cares when nobody even gets the channel.

How does that make any sence? What were the ratings trends on ABC/ESPN. That is not a cure all. Perhaps if you could get the VS guys (on-air and behind the scenes) that MIGHT help. But I can't see ABC changing anything. NBC, CBS, FOX, etc. didn't show much, if any, interest when the contract was being negotiated before. So why would they care now? Like it or not VS is the best deal IRL could get. They probably could have PAID for something else, but then they'd just be throwing money the don't have down a rat hole.


Get a title sponsor, imperative for the survival of the sport.

I'm sure no one at the IRL has thought of that. Thanks for the input.


Using the broadcast partner, start an 'Indycar channe'l similar to what college football has with the new SEC channel.

So now you don't only want one new channel, you want two? Be realistic man.


Set up an agressive facebook and twitter campaign to attrack and interest young fans.

Agreed. They should be doing that.


Run the I500 on the actual Monday holiday versus in sunday competing w/ nascab.

As has already been said, there's no "rain room". Just move the start time back to the traditional 11:00.

[indycool]

Pretty good evaluation, Chuck. The series was luxuriant when PPG sponsored the whole thing and held the sport together with its money and leadership. And it's "follow the money." A 10-year deal with Versus is a hope that the two can grow together. Time will tell.

[chuck34]

A 10-year deal with Versus is a hope that the two can grow together. Time will tell.

That's the key. I sort of think of this as a new version of the early-mid 80's with ESPN and their growth. I think VS is trying for the same sort of thing. And from what I've seen of them so far (IRL, NHL, Tour de France), they are on their way.

[SarahFan]

That's the key. I sort of think of this as a new version of the early-mid 80's with ESPN and their growth. I think VS is trying for the same sort of thing. And from what I've seen of them so far (IRL, NHL, Tour de France), they are on their way.


Do you think a $$$dispute with directTV and being off the air was part of the master plan

[chuck34]

Do you think a $$$dispute with directTV and being off the air was part of the master plan

The answer to that is quite obvious.

[garyshell]

Do you think a $$$dispute with directTV and being off the air was part of the master plan

Do you? It's a ridiculous question Ken. Of course, no one would think it was part of the plan. So what is your point in asking the question?

Gary

[SarahFan]

Do you? It's a ridiculous question Ken. Of course, no one would think it was part of the plan. So what is your point in asking the question?

Gary

being 'black' is in direct contrast to chucks statement that VS will grow ala ESPN in the 80's

is it not?

[chuck34]

being 'black' is in direct contrast to chucks statement that VS will grow ala ESPN in the 80's

is it not?

Do you honestly think they'll be "black" forever?

And in the early 80's wasn't ESPN "black" on a whole boat load of TV's since not everyone had cable? And even then not every carrier had it. Sounds fairly simmilar to me. That is if they do get back on DirecTV, which I would bet they will sooner rather than later.

[SarahFan]

Do you honestly think they'll be "black" forever?

And in the early 80's wasn't ESPN "black" on a whole boat load of TV's since not everyone had cable? And even then not every carrier had it. Sounds fairly simmilar to me. That is if they do get back on DirecTV, which I would bet they will sooner rather than later.


difference is ESPN was in on the ground floor of the cable TV boom....now they are one of the more recognizable 'brands' in the country....

VS... not so much

[chuck34]

difference is ESPN was in on the ground floor of the cable TV boom....now they are one of the more recognizable 'brands' in the country....

VS... not so much

I saw somewhere that VS is the fastest growing channel. How that's measured, I don't know. But I would tend to believe it. Again they have the NHL, the Tour de France, Rodeo, and MMA (or whatever cage fighting stuff they have, that a lot of people like, not me). All those seem to be gaining audiences.

What exactly is your problem with VS? And what channel would be better, and would have agreed to showing the IRL in a manner that is on par with the current VS coverage, and pay the IRL? Simple question I have yet to hear an answer to from anyone.

[SarahFan]

I saw somewhere that VS is the fastest growing channel. How that's measured, I don't know. But I would tend to believe it..


AOWR is going to achieve the lowest ratings in it's televised history...

does that really jive with 'fastest growing'....?

[SarahFan]

What exactly is your problem with VS? And what channel would be better, and would have agreed to showing the IRL in a manner that is on par with the current VS coverage, and pay the IRL? Simple question I have yet to hear an answer to from anyone.


lets not forget the IRl had another year on there abc/espn contract.....and IMO, ymmv, VS coverage isn't any different.... extended yes... better? seems the same

[chuck34]

AOWR is going to achieve the lowest ratings in it's televised history...

does that really jive with 'fastest growing'....?

OK Ken. That is not in dispute. Let's see what happens next year. For there to be growth, there has to be a first year.

Again, I'll keep asking this, what exactly is your solution? If all it took was b!tching and moaning, we'd have record ratings now. But that doesn't appear to be working. So what is your solution? Go begging and pleading back to ABC/ESPN so that the "lowest ratings in it's televised history" can be slightly higher? Come on, what is your solution? Go buy time on NBC/CBS/FOX so that the league can go broke faster? What is it Ken?

[chuck34]

lets not forget the IRl had another year on there abc/espn contract.....and IMO, ymmv, VS coverage isn't any different.... extended yes... better? seems the same

So is that your solution? Go back to ABC/ESPN and stagnate/slowly decline. Is that it? That's all you've got isn't it?

[SarahFan]

OK Ken. That is not in dispute. Let's see what happens next year. For there to be growth, there has to be a first year.

Again, I'll keep asking this, what exactly is your solution? If all it took was b!tching and moaning, we'd have record ratings now. But that doesn't appear to be working. So what is your solution? Go begging and pleading back to ABC/ESPN so that the "lowest ratings in it's televised history" can be slightly higher? Come on, what is your solution? Go buy time on NBC/CBS/FOX so that the league can go broke faster? What is it Ken?

click on the Robin miller radio link i just posted..... it addresses exactly your questions...

he made a point about your parrellel to growing along with VS ala what nascar did with ESPN...

[SarahFan]

So is that your solution? Go back to ABC/ESPN and stagnate/slowly decline. Is that it? That's all you've got isn't it?

why are you upset with me Chuck....take off the rose colored glasses and see the current TV situation for what it is.... not what you hope it will or would be

[chuck34]

click on the Robin miller radio link i just posted..... it addresses exactly your questions...

he made a point about your parrellel to growing along with VS ala what nascar did with ESPN...

Can't. It's blocked here at work. I'll look at it when I get home. Any chance of you giving a run down?

[chuck34]

why are you upset with me Chuck....take off the rose colored glasses and see the current TV situation for what it is.... not what you hope it will or would be

I see it for what it is Ken. It's the best the IRL could do. And to me it's actually a pretty good on screen product. Sure I'd like it to be seen by more people, but it is what it is, and it has a ton of potential growth. ABC/ESPN are pretty well maxed out. You seem to be the one that bemoans the fact that it's off of ABC/ESPN where it was stagnating.

I'm not upset, I'm bored with hearing the same thing droan off your keyboard time after time. "The IRL has such a horrible TV package on this backwater network. And even though it's been on there for less than a year, it can't possibly ever grown in audience." Or some variation on the theme. No solutions, no constructive critcism, nothing.

And now you'll tell me not to respond to these threads. That I should stick to the racing threads. That "the Biz" is an open topic for discussion. All the while you refuse to actually discuss "the Biz". You just b!tch about being on VS.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Exciting?

Yes, but it was pack racing. I just couldn't help thinking about the Big One...

Ok you guys complain when they run in a straight line on ovals and now you're complaining when they run side by side ???

Gimme a break !!! Indy (the race this series and major open wheel racing in America was built on) IS AN OVAL.

If you're not a fan of ovals just watch F1 and leave IndyCar to those of us that love ovals or start your own series based on just road races. We've seen how far that will get you.

As for the so called BIG ONE, these guys and gals are professionals. They know the risks and they are, for the most part, pros out there and don't drive stupid. (Milka excepted)

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Acyually my comment wasnot only directed at the poor TV package it was also directed at the crowd attendance. While I'm sure enthusiastic, the attendance was DOWN 67% over last year. This is a direct result of Indy car's fading legacy, lack of mainstream coverage, and the assinine Versus alte staurday night starting time.

Down 67% ??? Where did you pull that number out of ??? your ... ???

P.S. I LOVE VERSUS

[garyshell]

why are you upset with me Chuck....take off the rose colored glasses and see the current TV situation for what it is.... not what you hope it will or would be


Why do you think everyone who challenges you is "upset"? You seem to think you have an ability to read peoples emotions through their typed words. Clearly you don't, so please stop accusing folks of being "upset".

But you keep on diverting the question put to you time and again, "What is your solution?" You are the one who doesn't see the current TV situation for what it is, the best offer on the table. Sure there was one year left on the ESPN/ABC contract. One more year of being treated like total sh**. One more year of missed starts. One more year of no pre-race coverage. One more year of checkers a two second wrap up and "now we bring you water polo from China" coverage. Is that what you think we should go back to? Since you have never answered the question but only talked about ESPN/ABC when asked, we must assume that is what you want to go back to. Right? If not, please tell us what is your suggestion?

Gary

[garyshell]

Ok you guys complain when they run in a straight line on ovals and now you're complaining when they run side by side ???

Gimme a break !!! Indy (the race this series and major open wheel racing in America was built on) IS AN OVAL.

If you're not a fan of ovals just watch F1 and leave IndyCar to those of us that love ovals or start your own series based on just road races. We've seen how far that will get you.

As for the so called BIG ONE, these guys and gals are professionals. They know the risks and they are, for the most part, pros out there and don't drive stupid. (Milka excepted)


I totally agree with one notable exception. Milka doesn't drive stupid. Slow yes but not stupid. She seems to be a decent job this year of staying out of other folks way. In the past she was a bit of a problem, but I think those days are thankfully behind.

gary

[ChicagocrewIRL]

I don't see how Robin Miller can call pack racing suicidal. If it were suicidal I think there would have been more devastating accidents than have actually occurred. Every time these gals and guys get in the cockpit YES it's dangerous. It's RACING. Every form of motorsport IS DANGEROUS. I trust the drivers of these cars to know this and keep it in their minds when they are out there. It just doesn't make sense to me all the complaining about how dangerous this form of racing is. I don't think it's any more or any less dangerous than any other form of motorsport. I just don't understand it and if someone could please explain it to me, please do.

[garyshell]

I don't see how Robin Miller can call pack racing suicidal. If it were suicidal I think there would have been more devastating accidents than have actually occurred. Every time these gals and guys get in the cockpit YES it's dangerous. It's RACING. Every form of motorsport IS DANGEROUS. I trust the drivers of these cars to know this and keep it in their minds when they are out there. It just doesn't make sense to me all the complaining about how dangerous this form of racing is. I don't think it's any more or any less dangerous than any other form of motorsport. I just don't understand it and if someone could please explain it to me, please do.


The only reason I can see a case being made for there being more danger is because of the open wheels. It does make it a lot easier to launch a car into the air. I wish that when the next chassis design comes out that this is addressed by providing some side pod extension to prevent interlock and then some sort of protection in front of and behind the tires. But I don't think it will happen.

Gary

[SoCalPVguy]

P.S. I LOVE VERSUS

HERE IS ANOTHER REASON TO GET OUT OF THE VERSUS CONTRACT AT ANY COST: VERSUS NOW NOT AVAILABLE on direct-tv!!!

Content from AR1, apologies for posting: In yet another blow to the Versus deal with the Indy Racing League, DirecTV has announced that they were not able to reach agreement with Comcast by the August 31st deadline, and with today being September 1st, Versus will no longer be broadcast to DirecTV customers. This will be another blow to IndyCar TV ratings, already below infomercial levels.

Just last week IRL Commercial president Terry Angstadt said he was "very confident" that Versus will continue to be broadcast by DirecTV.

Should the IRL order the flowers and plan their funeral (remember the Versus deal is for 10, count them, 10 years), or will this be their way out of the contract?


Content from DirectTV:
The DirecTV announcement
Comcast, the largest cable company in the U.S., owns Versus. They regularly try to charge us amounts well in excess of what is fair and reasonable to carry the programming they own. Their reason is obvious: they want to stifle competition from DIRECTV. Comcast's unfair terms undermines DIRECTV's ability to offer our customers the best possible value. If we simply accept these terms, we would have to absorb the unreasonable costs Comcast wants to charge us, and in turn we will be forced to increase the rates our customers pay. We do not want this to happen. In fact, Comcast has forced us to remove Versus because we would not accept the terms they demanded.

We are currently in contract negotiations and will continue to work with Comcast until the matter is resolved. Rest assured that we are making every effort to ensure that you continue to be satisfied with your service.

For more information, please read our FAQs below.

On-air message says Versus is not available. Why?
Our contract with Comcast expired August 31 and we were unable to reach agreement on a renewal. Comcast was not only demanding renewal terms that did not reflect market value for the channel but also demanding carriage terms that were discriminatory. Comcast forced us to drop Versus unless we agreed to their unreasonable terms.

With Versus no longer available, how will DIRECTV make up for the loss?
We will communicate with you and do what we can to ensure your continued satisfaction and loyalty until the matter is resolved. We will continue to negotiate with Versus to resolve this matter. In the meantime, you'll still be able to watch plenty of similar sports programming on other channels we carry.

•College football — available on Big Ten Network, CBS College Sports, ESPN, ESPNU, ESPN GamePlan, The Mtn., local channels and your RSN.[/*:m:200dbrou]
•NHL — available on NHL Network, NHL Center Ice, and your RSN.[/*:m:200dbrou]
•Mixed Martial Arts — available on HDNet, Spike TV, and UFC on DIRECTV Pay-Per-View.[/*:m:200dbrou]
•Auto Racing — IRL on ABC, Formula 1 on Fox and Speed[/*:m:200dbrou]
Bull riding — available on ESPN2 and the Houston Rodeo on DIRECTV Pay-Per-View.[/*:m:200dbrou]
•Hunting and fishing — available on ESPN2, The Sportsman Channel, The Outdoor Channel, and Pursuit TV.[/*:m:200dbrou]
What's keeping you from reaching an agreement?
Comcast is asking for terms which do not reflect the market and which they are not asking of all other distributors. They claim their offer is status quo when in reality, they are asking for almost a 20% increase in fees. DIRECTV wants to keep your monthly fees low, so it's doing everything it can to avoid paying exorbitant programming fees.

Should I switch to DISH or cable?
No. There's no need to consider switching providers. DIRECTV has the best variety of exclusive and premium content available anywhere and we have similar programming on other channels (see above). If you are concerned about NHL, we still have time to negotiate with Comcast before the start of the NHL season. For PBR fans, we offered to carry PBR programming, but PBR events are exclusive to Versus and cannot be made available to DIRECTV.

Is this all just so DIRECTV can save money?
Not at all, this is about DIRECTV getting treated fairly and not wanting to pass on high programming fees to our customers.

[SoCalPVguy]

ESPN was smaller than Versus when it started. Give Versus a chance.

The differences are:
1. ESPN is on basic cable and most households get that.
2. Basis cable is "free".
3. Versus is digital cable, on my system #267, and only a few housholds get that at a premium cost, our digital package is something like $129 per month.
4. In a bad economy, costly digital cable viewership is shrinking not growing.
5. Verus availability is further shrinking, for example no longer carried on DirectTV.

[chuck34]

HERE IS ANOTHER REASON TO GET OUT OF THE VERSUS CONTRACT AT ANY COST: VERSUS NOW NOT AVAILABLE on direct-tv!!!

Oh. Well in that case, the IRL should crawl back to ABC/ESPN in order to continue to stagnate there. Or better yet, maybe they could PAY to be on another network. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Not that this doesn't suck, but you guys really need to change the record.

[SoCalPVguy]

Down 67% ??? Where did you pull that number out of ??? your ... ???

This was reported on Autoracing1.com.
Here is the link, but you cannot get it if you aren't a paid member.
http://autoracing1.com/hotnews.asp?tid=42446
I don't want to post premium material but suffice it to say the headline is
"[Chicagoland IndyCar attendance plummets 67%"
So it came from my eyes not my azz, and you can apologize anytime.

[chuck34]

The differences are:
1. ESPN is on basic cable and most households get that.
2. Basis cable is "free".
3. Versus is digital cable, on my system #267, and only a few housholds get that at a premium cost, our digital package is something like $129 per month.
4. In a bad economy, costly digital cable viewership is shrinking not growing.
5. Verus availability is further shrinking, for example no longer carried on DirectTV.

1) ESPN was not basic cable when it started.
2) See #1.
3) See #1.
4) Yep. How do we fix that?
5) I would bet that it'll be back on before the end of the year. Or at the latest next year.

What network gave the IRL a simmilar/better deal? What's the solution?

[SoCalPVguy]

To all:
I am never offended by any comment of criticizm made on my ideas to help Indycar grow back to and possibly exceed past prominece in te sporting world.
I especially like some of the more thoughtful comments here (others, meh, not so much...).
One thing though, I'm appalled that some think just beacuse they don't like some announcer or comemnator that they would not view or ignor a race on TV. Would you not go to the track just beacuse you hated some driver ?
My position is that having ten times the current Versus TV viewers watching the race on ABC/NBC/ESPN is better for the sport of Indycar than having a great production on a obscure digital channel theat 'no body' gets.

We need sponsors right ????
Sponsors care about ONLY eyeballs on the tube and don't care if they into the trivia of racing that may trip up some announcer.
Get with the BIG PICTURE !!!

[chuck34]

My position is that having ten times the current Versus TV viewers watching the race on ABC/NBC/ESPN is better for the sport of Indycar than having a great production on a obscure digital channel theat 'no body' gets.


Sure, but when was the last time that any IRL broadcast had 10 times the viewers? And you think that a switch to ABC/ESPN will magically produce those numbers now? When they haven't for the races this year, last year, or the past 10 years?

The problems are deeper than what network the IRL is on. The league has started to address some of those issues with the current aero changes, etc. But I do believe that some of the reason that viewers have been driven away the last few years was the crappy coverage. I can't say how many, but I do think that some are in that group. Every single person that can come back is a help. And at this low point, even a single person makes an impact.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

This was reported on Autoracing1.com.
Here is the link, but you cannot get it if you aren't a paid member.
http://autoracing1.com/hotnews.asp?tid=42446
I don't want to post premium material but suffice it to say the headline is
"[Chicagoland IndyCar attendance plummets 67%"
So it came from my eyes not my azz, and you can apologize anytime.

And since when did AR1, run by unwavering champcar fanatics become a credible news source ? AR1 is more of a blog than anything credible and unbiased. If you were to get me their source for this 67% number THEN maybe I would give your post the weight you are looking for.

P.S. Have a nice day

[indycool]

SoCal, all we know from your post is DIRECTV'S side of a negotiation story. We don't know Versus's side. IMO, as I posted before, there are going to be a lot of little negotiating tiffs among so many channels and distributors as life goes on. Count on it. And doubt that DirecTV and Versus won't strike a bargain somewhere along the way.

[indycool]

P.S. -- I agree with Chicago Crew.

[wedge]

Ok you guys complain when they run in a straight line on ovals and now you're complaining when they run side by side ???

Gimme a break !!! Indy (the race this series and major open wheel racing in America was built on) IS AN OVAL.

If you're not a fan of ovals just watch F1 and leave IndyCar to those of us that love ovals or start your own series based on just road races. We've seen how far that will get you.

As for the so called BIG ONE, these guys and gals are professionals. They know the risks and they are, for the most part, pros out there and don't drive stupid. (Milka excepted)

I love ovals. The best introduction I had was Mansell winning New Hampshire 1993.

I'm fine with going 2/3 wide lap after lap but wished the cars were strung out a bit more.


The only reason I can see a case being made for there being more danger is because of the open wheels. It does make it a lot easier to launch a car into the air. I wish that when the next chassis design comes out that this is addressed by providing some side pod extension to prevent interlock and then some sort of protection in front of and behind the tires. But I don't think it will happen.

Gary

:up:

[ChicagocrewIRL]

I love ovals. The best introduction I had was Mansell winning New Hampshire 1993.

I'm fine with going 2/3 wide lap after lap but wished the cars were strung out a bit more.



:up:

Understood... thanks Wedge

I have seen a few renderings of concept cars for Indy where the wheels are still open but have aero devices to keep them from locking together. Also the IRL has added a few foils to keep the cars from going air born but I know it still happens.

In the vast majority of crashes, spin outs, and air born flyovers that happen, the drivers have walked away unscathed and I think that's a testament to the safety of these cars. Crashes happen in pack racing and in some rare instances (Kenny Brack, Ryan Briscoe) the injuries are substantial. But from what I have seen most of the time the driver walks away unharmed. (Dario during his championship season, Buddy Rice at Chicagoland, Marco at Indy etc.)

But in the end, it's racing, and crashes and inuries and death happen in all forms of motorsport. To me MotoGP going 180 miles an hour on a motorbike is suicidal but I don't disparage them because I know they are pros.

[SarahFan]

I see it for what it is Ken. It's the best the IRL could do. And to me it's actually a pretty good on screen product. Sure I'd like it to be seen by more people, but it is what it is, and it has a ton of potential growth. ABC/ESPN are pretty well maxed out. You seem to be the one that bemoans the fact that it's off of ABC/ESPN where it was stagnating.

I'm not upset, I'm bored with hearing the same thing droan off your keyboard time after time. "The IRL has such a horrible TV package on this backwater network. And even though it's been on there for less than a year, it can't possibly ever grown in audience." Or some variation on the theme. No solutions, no constructive critcism, nothing.

And now you'll tell me not to respond to these threads. That I should stick to the racing threads. That "the Biz" is an open topic for discussion. All the while you refuse to actually discuss "the Biz". You just b!tch about being on VS.


get back to me when the ratings improve chuck.... until then the TV deal is a failure that shouldn't have happened..... simple proof that the folks at 16th and Gtown have no biz running the sport...

the sooner ownership changes the better......

*and for those of you who suggest ownership isnt going to change.... take a peek in the mirror... your the same folks that said they would have to pry the sport from Tony's dead hands

[garyshell]

get back to me when the ratings improve chuck.... until then the TV deal is a failure that shouldn't have happened.....

And still no suggestions as to what should be replace the current TV deal. Only the same old song and dance. Are we surprised? No and we are not upset either.

Gary

[SarahFan]

And still no suggestions as to what should be replace the current TV deal. Only the same old song and dance. Are we surprised? No and we are not upset either.

Gary



Why is this so hard for you Gary?

[garyshell]

Why is this so hard for you Gary?

Hard for me? It's not hard for me at all. Why is it so hard for you to offer up what you think should be the alternative to the current TV deal? Chuck has asked, I have asked, others have asked. And yet all you have to offer is as chuck34 said:


the same thing droan off your keyboard time after time. "The IRL has such a horrible TV package on this backwater network. And even though it's been on there for less than a year, it can't possibly ever grown in audience." Or some variation on the theme. No solutions, no constructive critcism, nothing.


Where are your suggested solutions or constructive criticism?

Gary

[indycool]

Ken, I don't think the ratings surprise anyone, including Versus, the IRL and the sponsors. For ypou and Mark C., it's kinda like waiting for your property tax bill, knowing it's gonna be troublesome, but making the best of it, paying it and life goes on.

[chuck34]

get back to me when the ratings improve chuck.... until then the TV deal is a failure that shouldn't have happened..... simple proof that the folks at 16th and Gtown have no biz running the sport...

the sooner ownership changes the better......

*and for those of you who suggest ownership isnt going to change.... take a peek in the mirror... your the same folks that said they would have to pry the sport from Tony's dead hands

What do you want from me Ken? I agree the ratings suck. They sucked on ABC/ESPN, and were trending down. They suck now on VS, but we have no real way of determining a trend yet (maybe by the END of next year we'll start to get a picture of the trend).

What network would have payed the IRL to broadcast (hell I'll take no money changing hands), and given them the same quality of broadcast that VS is giving them? Simple question, you refuse to answer. The only thing that comes close to you answering that question is for you to say except for X, Y, and Z you don't see any difference with the ABC coverage. Well Mrs. Lincoln, other than that, how was the play?

Come on Ken, we're discussing "the Biz". Isn't that what you love to do so much? Yet you REFUSE to do so. Come on, tell us all your plan, or at least what network you would prefer.

So the people at 16th and G'town have no biz running the sport. OK fine. Back that up. Who does? What's their plan? What's your plan? What do you want to see? Anything? Are you just hoping and praying for the day the sport dies? I have seen NOTHING, let me repeat that NOTHING, that suggests otherwise. All your b!tching and moaning has drug on for so long that now it seems more like cheerleading. Give us one positive move that could be made to improve the sport.

[SarahFan]

Ken, I don't think the ratings surprise anyone, including Versus, the IRL and the sponsors. For ypou and Mark C., it's kinda like waiting for your property tax bill, knowing it's gonna be troublesome, but making the best of it, paying it and life goes on.

and I think your wrong..dead wrong... if you can support that in anyway that would be great

biz dont make major changes and expect negative results..... simply not the way the world works......

and please dont lump me and MarkC together.... dont read him, dont care what he writes

[SarahFan]

Gary and Chuck..... I can't figure out why this is such a struggle for the two of you....

the Vs Tv deal is a complete failure.....I knew it the day they signed it.... and its been proven with every Tv rating all season.....

it simply never should have happened......

and its not just that its a third Tier TV channel no one watches.... its that the IRL has no clue how to promote itself... never has, never will

I've maintained all season i believe the REAL change needs to come at the league ownership level


now of course Gary and IC will come along and tell me leadership will change as soon as its wrestled from Tony Georges dead hands......oh wait


I could go on and on about what needs to be done.... some might be right, and some might be fantasy.....

but it all boils down to the same thing

now... about those TV ratings... they have been trending down for over a decede.... the trend (and yes its a real trend chuck) continues......get back to me when they aren't....

until then I'll continue to post them.....and point out the obvios

[chuck34]

Gary and Chuck..... I can't figure out why this is such a struggle for the two of you....

Way to dodge direct questions yet again Ken. Perhaps that is why this is such a struggle for us. We (or at least I do, don't want to speak for Gary I guess) agree with you that the ratings suck. Now what should we do about it?


the Vs Tv deal is a complete failure.....I knew it the day they signed it.... and its been proven with every Tv rating all season.....

it simply never should have happened......

and its not just that its a third Tier TV channel no one watches.... its that the IRL has no clue how to promote itself... never has, never will

Will going back to ABC/ESPN really change anything? That's where the coverage has been, and you readily admit that the ratings were trending down. So why would that change now? If the VS deal was such crap, what would have been better? What other network wants the IRL? Simple DIRECT (pun intended) questions you refuse to answer. Your refusal to answer questions is our struggle with you, not the fact that the ratings suck. We're well aware of that.


I've maintained all season i believe the REAL change needs to come at the league ownership level

Real change needs to come at the ownership level? Ok. Fine. I'll ask again, maybe you missed it before. Who would be better? Why? And what should they do?


I could go on and on about what needs to be done.... some might be right, and some might be fantasy.....

Fine! Great! Bring on the fantasy! The incessent droaning about how horrible things are, with not one iota of what would be better is really, really old. Give us something. If you are truly a fan (and I think you probably are), why don't you want to offer up what you would like to see done differently?


now... about those TV ratings... they have been trending down for over a decede.... the trend (and yes its a real trend chuck) continues......get back to me when they aren't....

And nothing has changed, like ... oh I don't know ... a change to another network, maybe. Do you really think that has done nothing to break (at least give a chance to break) that cycle/start a new trend? But again, even if I accept your premise that nothing has changed,

WHAT WOULD CHANGE IT IN YOUR OPINION!!!!!!!


until then I'll continue to post them.....and point out the obvios

Fine do that, keep pointing out the obvious about the ratings. I'll keep pointing out the obvious that you REFUSE to have any discussion about them past "THEY SUCK".

[SarahFan]

this isnt rocket science....

fix the schedule......opening in Brasil is just flat out stupid... anyway you slice it...

they need to open on with 2 ovals and long beach leading into Indy.... on network... even if at this point its a time buy..

its time for new chassis.....problem isnt that some folks there ugly (eye of the beholder) or unsafe (there not).... its that they are over engineered.....

its time for a new track record.... its safe to do so, insurance isnt a factor

promote the hell out of speed and diversity......

if your going to be on Versus then you had better let folks know your there.....they didn't.... remember all that cross promotion that forum members said was going to happen....

I know this stuff isnt free......but someone had better step up and start spending becuase at this point the sport IS dyeing.....another season of .14's and .2's simply will finnally kill the sport we love.....


*by the way.... anyone here (still) think IMS will still own the IRL 18 months from now?

[SarahFan]

and Chuck..... Ive been answering the same questions all season long.... its clear you just dont like the answers.... you waould rather cling to the falsehood that things will change simply becuase you hope and pray they will....

probably an opening at 16th and gtown right about now..... you would fit right in

[chuck34]

and Chuck..... Ive been answering the same questions all season long.... its clear you just dont like the answers.... you waould rather cling to the falsehood that things will change simply becuase you hope and pray they will....

probably an opening at 16th and gtown right about now..... you would fit right in

Was that really that hard? And as a matter of fact I actually agree with much of what you say (except the time buy bit).

Ringing the bell of "the ratings suck" at every oportunity is just plain dumb, and acomplishing nothing. If you were out there ringing the bell of "they need to do more promotion, by doing x", I know I'd be right there with you every step of the way, as I bet a lot of people would be.

Don't you see the difference between "here's this number, doesn't it suck", and "this number sucks, they need to do this."?

[garyshell]

and I think your wrong..dead wrong... if you can support that in anyway that would be great

biz dont make major changes and expect negative results..... simply not the way the world works......

Lots of businesses make major changes every year with the expectation for negative results in the SHORT TERM. Like it or not Ken, that IS the way the REAL world works. Have you ever run a business?

Gary

[garyshell]

Gary and Chuck..... I can't figure out why this is such a struggle for the two of you....

The ONLY struggle we have is the struggle with getting YOU to understand we know the ratings suck, and getting you to answer one simple question: what should have been done?

Chuck and I agree the ratings stink, but we agree there was a need to get the hell away from ESPN and ABC. We agree that there would be a short term hurt but the potential for a longer term help was good. You on the other hand don't think the deal that was signed was good. We get that. What we don't know is do you think the IRL should have just stayed with the ESPN/ABC status quo? Should they have made some other deal? What?

Why is it such a struggle for you to answer such a simple question? With all the stonewalling you have done, one is left with the assumption that you don't have a freakin' clue what should have been done. All you have is:



until then I'll continue to post them.....and point out the obvios

Gee, like there is a major revelation in that.

Gary

[garyshell]

this isnt rocket science....

fix the schedule......opening in Brasil is just flat out stupid... anyway you slice it...

they need to open on with 2 ovals and long beach leading into Indy.... on network... even if at this point its a time buy.

Well knock me over with a feather, Ken speaks. I am not sure opening in Brazil is stupid, its not perfect, but I don't see a LOT of downside. I look at it as sort of a warm up for the season more than a kickoff. The rest of this I agree with 100%. Some good races like we just saw at KY and Chicago, then the spectacles of LB and Indy would be a great kickoff.


its time for new chassis.....problem isnt that some folks there ugly (eye of the beholder) or unsafe (there not).... its that they are over engineered.....

Not sure exactly what "over engineered" means and are you talking about the old chassis or the some proposed new ones?


its time for a new track record.... its safe to do so, insurance isnt a factor.

At the risk of dredging up the insurance debate yet again, you seem so certain that no discussions of speed have never come out of the mouths of the insurance inspectors. How could they NOT be concerned? They are the ones at ultimate risk if a payout comes from a fan injury. Here's a link that seems to indicate that those types of decisions DO occur: http://www.catchfence.com/2009/arca/...lladega-notes/ This article is in relation to a NASCAR event, but to think that it would not apply to IRL or any other sanctioning body is to ignore the reality of the insurance business. I'll repeat a question I asked you before, and like many other such questions you summarily ignored. Have you ever had to be involved with an business insurance risk assessment inspection?


if your going to be on Versus then you had better let folks know your there.....they didn't.... remember all that cross promotion that forum members said was going to happen....

Oh, so now we get down to it. You have no alternative to the Versus deal and now it's OK if there is promotion. Nice back pedal there Ken. You thought we wouldn't notice, huh?


I know this stuff isnt free......but someone had better step up and start spending becuase at this point the sport IS dyeing.....another season of .14's and .2's simply will finnally kill the sport we love.....

Get out your checkbook Ken, cause the sisters closed theirs a couple of months ago.


*by the way.... anyone here (still) think IMS will still own the IRL 18 months from now?

Yes.

Gary

[garyshell]

and Chuck..... Ive been answering the same questions all season long.... its clear you just dont like the answers.... you waould rather cling to the falsehood that things will change simply becuase you hope and pray they will....

probably an opening at 16th and gtown right about now..... you would fit right in

Please site ONE example where you have answered the question about what TV deal should have been struck? I missed it.

Gary

[indycool]

Ken, a 10-year deal is a LONG-term deal. I disagree totally that anyone expected ratings this year to soar o'er the ramparts. It's like buying stock for the long term with the idea that it might appreciate.

Sure, for the moment, ratings suck. They may well suck next year, too. This sport hasn't been stable under one flag for too long.

And before you say insurance people will let 'em set new track records, you have nlot said a word ablout safety.

[NickFalzone]

I'm not going to get involved in this discussion because to be honest this ground has been covered back and forth ages ago. I will say this though, the discussion really comes down to expectations. If the current Versus numbers are below what the IRL/sponsors/etc. expected, then Ken is correct. If the current numbers are not below what everyone expected, then Ken is incorrect. Until all these folks personally go on the record stating the numbers are below expectations, Ken really doesn't have a lot to stand on. Alternately, if sponsorship/driver deals start significantly drying up in this offseason, Ken may well be right that Versus is the reason. I do know that Tracy has said the Versus deal has hurt his opportunity with Geico for additional races, but this has more to do with the Canadian TSN2 issues than Versus U.S. Regardless, I don't think we necessarily have enough to go on to state categorically whether it's a failure or not, since we do not know what the expectations were in the first place, and additionally how long everyone planned to give this (10 year) deal to start getting decent numbers. At first glance, I agree with Ken that the deal is not working out very well. But I can't speak for the league or the sponsors, because I don't know their expectations.

[chuck34]

I'm not going to get involved in this discussion because to be honest this ground has been covered back and forth ages ago. I will say this though, the discussion really comes down to expectations. If the current Versus numbers are below what the IRL/sponsors/etc. expected, then Ken is correct. If the current numbers are not below what everyone expected, then Ken is incorrect. Until all these folks personally go on the record stating the numbers are below expectations, Ken really doesn't have a lot to stand on. Alternately, if sponsorship/driver deals start significantly drying up in this offseason, Ken may well be right that Versus is the reason. I do know that Tracy has said the Versus deal has hurt his opportunity with Geico for additional races, but this has more to do with the Canadian TSN2 issues than Versus U.S. Regardless, I don't think we necessarily have enough to go on to state categorically whether it's a failure or not, since we do not know what the expectations were in the first place, and additionally how long everyone planned to give this (10 year) deal to start getting decent numbers. At first glance, I agree with Ken that the deal is not working out very well. But I can't speak for the league or the sponsors, because I don't know their expectations.

Again, what is the alternative? Being treated like the red-headed step child on ABC/ESPN is/was clearly not working. But staying on those national networks and pulling in 0.8,0.7,0.6 is sooo much better than 0.6,0.5,0.4, right? Let's face it, the ratings are in the "noise floor" no matter what network the IRL is on.

[SarahFan]

, you have nlot said a word ablout safety.

its unbelievable you would say that...

I have in fact consistantly addressed it at every turn from the very start....

go back to track forum and reread my thread/poll on the subjct i started over a year ago...

you participated in that thread also.....remember

[SarahFan]

Lots of businesses make major changes every year with the expectation for negative results in the SHORT TERM. Like it or not Ken, that IS the way the REAL world works. Have you ever run a business?

Gary

I own and operate 2 biz in fact.... and never not a on a single instance did i make a decision or a change that I felt would result in negative results, even in the short term (not to say I havent made mistakes or bad decisions, clearly i have, everyone does)

but if as you say LOTS have.... perhpas you can provide a few specific examples of said companies and a brief description of those changes...

you know... support your claim.. that would be nice

[SarahFan]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=387879

Gary, Chuck... whoever..

above is my posting history... feel free to go over the past year... I have been remarkably consistent on these topics.... no back peddaleing no waffeling...

yet you keep asking the same questions (and getting) the same answers with every decline in ratings....


sorry your frustrated.... but perhaps its time to stop projecting

[chuck34]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=387879

Gary, Chuck... whoever..

above is my posting history... feel free to go over the past year... I have been remarkably consistent on these topics.... no back peddaleing no waffeling...

yet you keep asking the same questions (and getting) the same answers with every decline in ratings....


sorry your frustrated.... but perhaps its time to stop projecting

Not projecting Ken, perhaps you are the one projecting. I would just like a straight answer to questions that are posed rather than sifting back through your post history. It really doesn't take that long to answer what network you would prefer the IRL be on. I don't believe that I've ever heard an answer to that. Or perhaps you could answer who you would like to see run the show since you clearly don't like the current structure. And I would like to not have to dig up your past posts (your link doesn't work by the way).

Yes we do keep asking the same questions and getting the same answer. The answer is "look at my post history". Good God man, normal people would just answer the freaking question.

[SarahFan]

Not projecting Ken, perhaps you are the one projecting. I would just like a straight answer to questions that are posed rather than sifting back through your post history. It really doesn't take that long to answer what network you would prefer the IRL be on. I don't believe that I've ever heard an answer to that. Or perhaps you could answer who you would like to see run the show since you clearly don't like the current structure. And I would like to not have to dig up your past posts (your link doesn't work by the way).

Yes we do keep asking the same questions and getting the same answer. The answer is "look at my post history". Good God man, normal people would just answer the freaking question.


how many times does it need to be answered

seriosly

given the alternative yes.... considering they had another year left on there contract....I would have stayed put and continued working on a better deal for 2010....

considering they are averageing a .24 on Vs.... and all the network races dropped in ratings*.... can you seriosly with a straight face argue anything different?

*IC can confirm.... i have maintained a poor lead-in to Indy will result in poor 500 ratings which in turn result in poor mid and end of the season ratings.....well look at the trend

[beachbum]

Again, what is the alternative? Being treated like the red-headed step child on ABC/ESPN is/was clearly not working. But staying on those national networks and pulling in 0.8,0.7,0.6 is sooo much better than 0.6,0.5,0.4, right? Let's face it, the ratings are in the "noise floor" no matter what network the IRL is on.Add in the fact that the IRL would probably have to PAY those networks for crappy coverage while Versus PAYS the IRL, and the alternatives don't look very rosy, regardless of ratings.

[garyshell]

I own and operate 2 biz in fact.... and never not a on a single instance did i make a decision or a change that I felt would result in negative results, even in the short term (not to say I havent made mistakes or bad decisions, clearly i have, everyone does)

but if as you say LOTS have.... perhpas you can provide a few specific examples of said companies and a brief description of those changes...

you know... support your claim.. that would be nice


Oh please Ken, do your own freakin' home work. Do you honestly think that no company ever makes a decision that they know will hurt in the short term so that they can make gains in the long term? If you haven't ever had to make such a decision, consider your self lucky or short sighted. Ever hear of a company pouring earnings back into R&D? It hurts the bottom line in the short term, the stock prices may even take a hit as a result. But the long term results mean better returns and stock prices down the road.

Rather than challenging for specific instances, your usual cut and run tactic, how about discussing the concept.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Oh please Ken, do your own freakin' home work. Do you honestly think that no company ever makes a decision that they know will hurt in the short term so that they can make gains in the long term? If you haven't ever had to make such a decision, consider your self lucky or short sighted. Ever hear of a company pouring earnings back into R&D? It hurts the bottom line in the short term, the stock prices may even take a hit as a result. But the long term results mean better returns and stock prices down the road.

Rather than challenging for specific instances, your usual cut and run tactic, how about discussing the concept.

Gary

thats your example.... companies investing in Research and development?

seriosly?

that is possibly the dumbest post i have ever read on any of these forums..... and that is saying something considering some of the sillyness I have read over at TF....

no wonder these discussions never go anywhere

[chuck34]

OK Ken, I've gone through the first 10 pages of your post history. No mention of who you would like to see run the IRL. No mention of what network you'd like to see it on. But there sure are a lot of threads about ratings sucking with no mention of how things could be better. How far do you want me to dig? Or could it be within your power to just tell us?

Do you honestly not see how some may get tired of such a thing?

[SarahFan]

OK Ken, I've gone through the first 10 pages of your post history. No mention of who you would like to see run the IRL. No mention of what network you'd like to see it on. But there sure are a lot of threads about ratings sucking with no mention of how things could be better. How far do you want me to dig? Or could it be within your power to just tell us?

Do you honestly not see how some may get tired of such a thing?

perhaps you should hit the 'ignore' button

[garyshell]

how many times does it need to be answered

seriosly

given the alternative yes.... considering they had another year left on there contract....I would have stayed put and continued working on a better deal for 2010....

Once. Which you have only now finally done.

So now this begs the question do you think the poor numbers, late starts, early ends and horrific coverage on ESPN/ABC, trumps the poor numbers, timely starts, post race coverage and better on-air folks on Versus?

To me, the viewing numbers were not much better on ESPN than what we have now. Better yes, but as chuck said into statistical noise. I am not sure why/how you think a "better deal" was possible. How do we address the late starts in particular or the checker flag and immediate cut away. How would those be negotiated away? And could we really survive another year with the late starts, IDIOTS as on air commentators and quick cut aways? Would we really have been better off?

Yes the numbers this year suck, but I still see a light at the end of the tunnel. With last years coverage and the thought of another year of that crap, I saw a light too. But it was the oncoming freight train not one from the other end of the tunnel.

YMMV

Gary

[garyshell]

OK Ken, I've gone through the first 10 pages of your post history. No mention of who you would like to see run the IRL. No mention of what network you'd like to see it on. But there sure are a lot of threads about ratings sucking with no mention of how things could be better. How far do you want me to dig? Or could it be within your power to just tell us?

Do you honestly not see how some may get tired of such a thing?


perhaps you should hit the 'ignore' button


As usual, one of three questions, the last one, answered (sort of). The others ignored. Again, I guess you thought we wouldn't notice.

Gary

[chuck34]

perhaps you should hit the 'ignore' button

I don't want to ignore you. You seem to be at least somewhat intelligent. And you also seem to care about the sport. I would like to have a discussion about the future direction you see for the IRL.

For some reason you REFUSE to do that.

[SarahFan]

I don't want to ignore you. You seem to be at least somewhat intelligent. And you also seem to care about the sport. I would like to have a discussion about the future direction you see for the IRL.

For some reason you REFUSE to do that.

chuck...

I believe the split era truly ended when tony steped away....
I believe in the short term its going to be painful
I believe sometime betwenn now and the start of 2011 the IRL will be under new ownership/leadership
I believe then and only then will we see steps forward

until then I'll post the ratings, someone has too, how else will you know when the trend reversus?

and along the way I'll maintain a few other things.... for example.....that I believe a new track record at Indy would be a shot in the arm for the sport, a building block if you will

[indycool]

Ken, I've seen your posts about safety of the IRL cars at TF. Now you're campaigning for the insurance guys to let 'em run, get a track record, get piublicity to stimulate interest without regard for the safety aspect in the return to higher speeds.

AGAIN, NASCAR maxed out on speeds when Elliott qualified at 212 at Talladega. Indy cars were "whoaed up" when the slowest qualifier in the early '70s was faster than the previous year's pole car. In both cases, the cars were slowed. Did it have anything to do with insurance? Maybe. But did it have anything to do wity safety? Everything.

In your restaurants, your short-term decision is the fellow orders a barbecue and like it. Your long-term decision is to convert to a seafood restaurant. It may not work in the beginning, but in the long run, you have made an investment you expect to pan out. This is no different.

[SarahFan]

As usual, one of three questions, the last one, answered (sort of). The others ignored. Again, I guess you thought we wouldn't notice.

Gary

what part of asked and answered for the better part of a year do struggle with

heres how it has gone all year gary

you ask question
i answer
you dont like answer
you ask again
i answer again
you still dont like answer
you pretend i never answered

then you make some rediculous statment like companies investing R&D is the same a company making a decision that knew would produce negative results


*ken just shakes head

[SarahFan]

Ken, I've seen your posts about safety of the IRL cars at TF. Now you're campaigning for the insurance guys to let 'em run, get a track record, get piublicity to stimulate interest without regard for the safety aspect in the return to higher speeds.

.

wrong.....

I have maintained that with SAFER, Hans, wheel tethers and chassis development related to safety that 237 today is safer today than it was in 96'


do you disagree with that?

[garyshell]

thats your example.... companies investing in Research and development?

seriosly?

that is possibly the dumbest post i have ever read on any of these forums..... and that is saying something considering some of the sillyness I have read over at TF....

no wonder these discussions never go anywhere


Exactly how is it that making a decision to invest the companies earnings back into R&D is not a decision that hurts the bottom line in the short term? It wipes out profits and/or dividends, it can effect stock prices in the short run. How is it that that is not a short term hurt that in turn leads to long term gains?

The discussions go nowhere because YOU declare somethig as stupid and refuse to discuss it.

Gary

[chuck34]

chuck...

I believe the split era truly ended when tony steped away....
I believe in the short term its going to be painful
I believe sometime betwenn now and the start of 2011 the IRL will be under new ownership/leadership
I believe then and only then will we see steps forward

Wow! This is almost discussion, and almost answering my questions. Now, who would be a good buyer? What changes do you think they should make?


until then I'll post the ratings, someone has too, how else will you know when the trend reversus?

That's fine, post away. But don't be shocked when people want to discuss them. Don't try to say that we are denying reality by asking what would be better. NO ONE denies that the ratings suck. But it's fun on these forums to talk about how we would change things.


and along the way I'll maintain a few other things.... for example.....that I believe a new track record at Indy would be a shot in the arm for the sport, a building block if you will

I am 100% behind you on that one. At least flirting with the record could drive publicity and excitement. See isn't that better when you actually discuss things instead of stonewalling? You might actually learn another person's position. And maybe even realise that they agree with you on some things.

[garyshell]

OK Ken, I've gone through the first 10 pages of your post history. No mention of who you would like to see run the IRL. No mention of what network you'd like to see it on. But there sure are a lot of threads about ratings sucking with no mention of how things could be better. How far do you want me to dig? Or could it be within your power to just tell us?

Do you honestly not see how some may get tired of such a thing?


perhaps you should hit the 'ignore' button


As usual, one of three questions, the last one, answered (sort of). The others ignored. Again, I guess you thought we wouldn't notice.



what part of asked and answered for the better part of a year do struggle with

heres how it has gone all year gary

you ask question
i answer
you dont like answer
you ask again
i answer again
you still dont like answer
you pretend i never answered

then you make some rediculous statment like companies investing R&D is the same a company making a decision that knew would produce negative results


*ken just shakes head


Chuck asked you three questions. You answered one. Look at the quotes above. That is what my reply was about. Not a years worth of my ignoring poor ol' Ken's "answers".

I never said "investing R&D is the same a company making a decision that knew would produce negative results" I said investing the earnings of a company in R&D will produce SHORT TERM negative results. Which part of short term don't you understand or did you just decide to ignore it? That very issue is what is wrong with a lot of companies today. They are so concerned about the short term price of their stock or returns that they don't want to reinvest in R&D because of that SHORT TERM negative effect.

Gary

[SarahFan]

your example is asinine

have a nice day gary

[SarahFan]

Wow! This is almost discussion, and almost answering my questions. Now, who would be a good buyer? What changes do you think they should make?



That's fine, post away. But don't be shocked when people want to discuss them. Don't try to say that we are denying reality by asking what would be better. NO ONE denies that the ratings suck. But it's fun on these forums to talk about how we would change things.



I am 100% behind you on that one. At least flirting with the record could drive publicity and excitement. See isn't that better when you actually discuss things instead of stonewalling? You might actually learn another person's position. And maybe even realise that they agree with you on some things.

I have said all the above numerous times Chuck

[chuck34]

what part of asked and answered for the better part of a year do struggle with



Granted I got distracted and am only through 10 pages of your past posts. But perhaps a refresher on some of your positions every now and again would be nice. And as you can see from the past couple of answers we've been able to pry out of you, I (and maybe others) agree with some of them. So it's not like we're ignoring your answers because we don't like them. Perhaps we have innocently forgotten them because you have refused to discuss them for over a year. And only posting the ratings numbers and saying that they suck with no further discussion leads us down a certain path as to what you may or may not be thinking.

[chuck34]

I have said all the above numerous times Chuck

Great. When? Where? What topics? What is so hard about going back over something? Do you think we have some sort of database that has all of Ken's thought at our fingertips?

The way I see it, if you would have just re-hashed some of this we could have saved everyone about 3 or 4 pages of stupid repetative questions and non-answers like this one.

[garyshell]

your example is asinine

have a nice day gary


That's all you got, huh? It's asinine if you ignore that I talked about short term negative results, which you so conveniently did.

I'll leave the rest of my post to your imagination, but it has little to do with you having a nice day, trust me.

Gary

[indycool]

Ken, with those, plus anti-intrusion panels, cockpit redos and new fencing configurations make things safer. Safer for 237, you say yes. Safety people seem to say no. Promotionally, I agree that a track record at Indy would be a stimulus. Promotionally, a von Trips-Levegh accident would be a crushing nightmare.

[SarahFan]

That's all you got, huh? It's asinine if you ignore that I talked about short term negative results, which you so conveniently did.

I'll leave the rest of my post to your imagination, but it has little to do with you having a nice day, trust me.

Gary

attempting to equate R&D to the IRL and VS signing a ten year broadcast and expecting negative results, even in the short term, is asinine IMO

clearly not yours

as long as your reachin......reach for the stars gary

[SarahFan]

Ken, with those, plus anti-intrusion panels, cockpit redos and new fencing configurations make things safer. Safer for 237, you say yes. Safety people seem to say no. Promotionally, I agree that a track record at Indy would be a stimulus. Promotionally, a von Trips-Levegh accident would be a crushing nightmare.

specifically which safety people?

I've read it repeatedly by a handful of posters on a couple boards...

but which 'safety people' are you referring too?

[SarahFan]

Great. When? Where? What topics?

all season long, right here on this board, in relation to the current TV deal and declineing ratings

[chuck34]

all season lone, right here on this board, in relation to the current TV deal and declineing ratings

All season long? Really?

I've gone through the first 20 pages of your posts that gets me back to June 7th. That appears to be as far back as it will let me go?

Here's a trend I see so far (paraphrasing the main themes I see).

- The ratings suck.
- The ratings have been going down for at least 10-14 years.
- TG shouldn't have started the league.
- You don't want a street race in Brazil.
- You don't want a parking lot race in New England.
- You keep saying how great you are because you discuss things in the racing threads, you say this in order to avoid discussion of "the biz" like you say you want.
- You seem to think that everyone is projecting their frustrations onto you, but no answers on anything.
- Bickering back and forth between you and DF.


Strangely nothing about who should own the IRL, what they should do to improve things, what network the races should be on, what said network should do to improve ratings, etc. There must be a secret stash of posts somewhere because you say you've discussed these things "all season long". Yet not one mention of any of this at least back to June. Strange, very strange.

[SarahFan]

All season long? Really?

I've gone through the first 20 pages of your posts that gets me back to June 7th. That appears to be as far back as it will let me go?

Here's a trend I see so far (paraphrasing the main themes I see).

- The ratings suck.
- The ratings have been going down for at least 10-14 years.
- TG shouldn't have started the league.
- You don't want a street race in Brazil.
- You don't want a parking lot race in New England.
- You keep saying how great you are because you discuss things in the racing threads, you say this in order to avoid discussion of "the biz" like you say you want.
- You seem to think that everyone is projecting their frustrations onto you, but no answers on anything.
- Bickering back and forth between you and DF.


Strangely nothing about who should own the IRL, what they should do to improve things, what network the races should be on, what said network should do to improve ratings, etc. There must be a secret stash of posts somewhere because you say you've discussed these things "all season long". Yet not one mention of any of this at least back to June. Strange, very strange.

they do
they have
he shouldnt have
they shouldnt
i dont

can you argue against any of that?

never referred to being great... simply stateing a fact in relation to folks that say all i do is complain about ratings....it;s clearly not all i do

reread the ratings thread.... i post them without comment.... folks get upset with me... that is classic projection

bicker with DF.....really?

[NickFalzone]

I guess the comparison would be this: We'll lose some viewership in the short term, but gain viewership in the long term, thanks to a better television product (that also pays us to air). This short term loss (say 1-3 years) will be worth it, because this cable station promises us that within a few years they will be in many more markets and have many more viewers. They probably even mapped it out - year 1 we'll be getting .2 average, year 2 we'll be getting a .4 average, year 3 we'll be getting a .6 average, which is roughly where ESPN2 IndyCar ratings were at in the most recent broadcast year. In the mean time, the IRL is getting to put on a better tv product for the fans, and actually getting paid for it. This is a good thing, as ESPN ratings were trending down, and perhaps VS ratings in 3 years will be above where the ESPN IRL ratings would have been in 3 years.

One could argue back and forth that this is a dumb decision, arguments could be fairly made that the short term loss is not worth the "possible" long-term gains. But the fact of the matter is that short term losses WERE chosen as of last August by the IRL, and they were comfortable with that decision. It may have been a poor decision, but I do think that 1. we're too early to make that determination, in a 10 year deal, and 2. we don't know what the IRL or the sponsors expected as of race ratings through August of 2009. This is entirely speculation on all of our parts, so making great declarations of "this was the right decision" or "this was the wrong decision" are naive, because none of us are in the know. Clearly short term ratings losses were expected, but whether this much, and for this long, I do not know, and neither do any of us discussing it.

[chuck34]

they do
they have
he shouldnt have
they shouldnt
i dont

And yet again, no discussion. Do you understand that meerly stating "facts" is not discussion?


can you argue against any of that?

NO. All I'm asking is what do YOU think should be done about these things.


never referred to being great... simply stateing a fact in relation to folks that say all i do is complain about ratings....it;s clearly not all i do

The "great" part may have been a bit of hyperbole. But you do come off as having a bit of an "air" to you. Maybe I'm reading into things I shouldn't. And I don't think that anyone is "complaining" about ratings except you. Most people are on board with the idea that the ratings suck. Most people have said that they see them picking up in the future, and other ideas of how to change things. All you do is "post them without comment".


reread the ratings thread.... i post them without comment.... folks get upset with me... that is classic projection

YOU need to re-read the ratings threads. People aren't upset with the ratings, they are upset when they ask you what to do about them. And then you say one of your patented "your projecting", "I post without comment", "0.x", "Stick to the racing threads" comments.

This is a DISCUSSION forum. People like to DISCUSS things here. "Posting without comment" gets old. How do you not understand that concept?


bicker with DF.....really?

How would you characterize it?

[SarahFan]

this is turning into a 'gary' scenario real quick chuck.... you ask i answer you dont like answer so you ask again

what specifically that i havent addressed head on do you want to discuss chuck?

be specific

[garyshell]

and I think your wrong..dead wrong... if you can support that in anyway that would be great

biz dont make major changes and expect negative results..... simply not the way the world works......


Lots of businesses make major changes every year with the expectation for negative results in the SHORT TERM. Like it or not Ken, that IS the way the REAL world works. Have you ever run a business?

Gary


but if as you say LOTS have.... perhpas you can provide a few specific examples of said companies and a brief description of those changes...you know... support your claim.. that would be nice


attempting to equate R&D to the IRL and VS signing a ten year broadcast and expecting negative results, even in the short term, is asinine IMO

clearly not yours

as long as your reachin......reach for the stars gary

Lets review shall we, to see who is "reaching".

In the first post, you said "biz dont make major changes and expect negative results". In my reply, I said "businesses make major changes every year with the expectation for negative results in the SHORT TERM" (Please note the words SHORT and TERM.) You then called for a specific example. I provided one and then, ignoring the words SHORT and TERM, you declared it asinine. Then you went on to suggest that I was equating that example to the IRL and Versus deal, once again attempting to distort what I wrote. I never once suggested that my example was anything more than a direct answer to your request that I site an example of a company making a decision that would have short term (there are those pesky words again) negative result that was hoped to produce a long term gain. It was an example of the TYPE of decision that hurts today and helps tomorrow. I never said that it was the equivalent. You projected that. Again.

But let's try a hypothetical one. Let's say that a company was approached by a USA Today ad exec, when USA Today was getting off the ground, with an offer to sell a long term ad buy at a very reduced rate to our fictitious company. The company decided to take a gamble, pulling it's ads from it's normal main stream media and went with the deal. In the short term, that decision, most likely would hurt sales as the circulation of the new upstart was not that big. But as the circulation grew, that deal would begin to look a LOT sweeter.

Now I know what's coming, a barrage of its asinine to compare USA Today to Versus, etc. etc. etc. But would the company have KNOWN back in the day that USA Today was destined to have the circulation it now has? And do you have the crystal ball to KNOW that Versus isn't going to see substantive growth over the life of this contract. (Which BTW involved Versus paying the IRL, whereas my example had revenue flowing FROM the company.)

I don't know the answer either. What I do know is what I said in the begining of this discussion. Namely, companies do make short term gambles that they hope will pay off latter.

Gary

[chuck34]

this is turning into a 'gary' scenario real quick chuck.... you ask i answer you dont like answer so you ask again

what specifically that i havent addressed head on do you want to discuss chuck?

be specific

Hmmm. I could go two ways on this. First way would be your way.

I have asked these questions all year. You don't like the questions so you either ignore them, answer your own variation of the question, or say you've already answered them.

[chuck34]

this is turning into a 'gary' scenario real quick chuck.... you ask i answer you dont like answer so you ask again

what specifically that i havent addressed head on do you want to discuss chuck?

be specific

The second way to go is to actually address the issue at hand.

I asked specific questions to you in my posts 130, 134, 144, 148, 153, 157, 163, and 168. You partially answered some question in your post 135.

I'll ask the three main ones again.

What network would you like to see the IRL on?

Who do you think should run the IRL?

What changes do you think they should make?

Be forewarned though, your answers to these questions may bring up further questions. Thus the nature of DISCUSSION.

[SarahFan]

L

But let's try a hypothetical one. Let's say that a company was approached by a USA Today ad exec, when USA Today was getting off the ground, with an offer to sell a long term ad buy at a very reduced rate to our fictitious company. The company decided to take a gamble, pulling it's ads from it's normal main stream media and went with the deal. In the short term, that decision, most likely would hurt sales as the circulation of the new upstart was not that big. But as the circulation grew, that deal would begin to look a LOT sweeter.



Gary


your attempt to equate companies doing R&D to the current IRL/VS deal IS asinine....IMO of coarse

but the above is a fair scenerio....

now you said companies do so all the time.... which?.. be specifiic?... should be easy right.... since LOTS of companies do so ALL the time

[garyshell]

reread the ratings thread.... i post them without comment.... folks get upset with me... that is classic projection

Oh, poor put upon Ken. He posts without comment and folks get upset.

The classic projection is when you project that it is the posts about the ratings, when everyone has made it abundantly clear that what gets them annoyed (you project the upset part) is your avoidance of direct questions. Poor Ken. You don't wear the martyr mantle very well.

Gary

[SarahFan]

The second way to go is to actually address the issue at hand.

I asked specific questions to you in my posts 130, 134, 144, 148, 153, 157, 163, and 168. You partially answered some question in your post 135.

I'll ask the three main ones again.

What network would you like to see the IRL on?

Who do you think should run the IRL?

What changes do you think they should make?

Be forewarned though, your answers to these questions may bring up further questions. Thus the nature of DISCUSSION.


any of the big 4 networks....abc, cbs, nbc, fox

i would like to see it structured 'similar' to the NBA or NFL...owned by the team owners, run by iron fist by a commissionar...

hire new marketing and production companies


of coarse the problem is $$$$$ isnt it

[SarahFan]

Oh, poor put upon Ken. He posts without comment and folks get upset.

The classic projection is when you project that it is the posts about the ratings, when everyone has made it abundantly clear that what gets them annoyed (you project the upset part) is your avoidance of direct questions. Poor Ken. You don't wear the martyr mantle very well.

Gary

your funny gary

[garyshell]

your attempt to equate companies doing R&D to the current IRL/VS deal IS asinine....IMO of coarse

but the above is a fair scenerio....

now you said companies do so all the time.... which?.. be specifiic?... should be easy right.... since LOTS of companies do so ALL the time


You were the one who made the asinine equation not me. I like how your quote stoped short of the direct question to you.


And do you have the crystal ball to KNOW that Versus isn't going to see substantive growth over the life of this contract? (Which BTW involved Versus paying the IRL, whereas my example had revenue flowing FROM the company.)

Instead you divert and make the request for me to try to show you specific examples of decisions that are not part of any public record. As if that would negate the validity of the point. Anyone with a BA in business, hell anyone who ever ran a business, knows that sometimes you have to suck it up in the short term on the hope that it pays off latter. Ever hear of someone buying up, at a fire sale price, the inventory of a competitor going out of business, knowing they won't be able to dispose of that inventory over the short term?

Ken, do you own freakin' homework. Go on running your company concerning your self with only the short term consequences of your decisions. Somehow, I don't think that is REALLY how you operate.

Gary

[Marbles]

Pretty decent oval race! That 3-wide affair with Rahal and all towards the end was pretty tense. Uncomfortably tense for me anyways. I think Andretti would have been better off trying to push Rahal through. Nice finish.

[chuck34]

any of the big 4 networks....abc, cbs, nbc, fox

Any of them offering up cash, or at least a quality on air product?


i would like to see it structured 'similar' to the NBA or NFL...owned by the team owners, run by iron fist by a commissionar...

Any ideas on who this commissionar would be? How would that structure differ from CART?


hire new marketing and production companies

Agreeed on the marketing one. Anyone out there that could do this? I honestly don't know anything about marketing companies. The production quality on VS seems much better to me than on ABC, although there have been some flub-ups in the past couple of races that I'm not sure about.


of coarse the problem is $$$$$ isnt it

Yep. What do we do to raise a bit of cash? Bake sale? :-)


See isn't answering questions and having a discussion more fun than arguing about nothing?

[SarahFan]

You were the one who made the asinine equation not me. I like how your quote stoped short of the direct question to you.




Gary

I was?

WTF are you talking about ....your all over the board Gary..... sometimes i think you forget what the discussion is about and argue just for the sake of arguing..

again have a nice day Gary.......

[chuck34]

Pretty decent oval race! That 3-wide affair with Rahal and all towards the end was pretty tense. Uncomfortably tense for me anyways. I think Andretti would have been better off trying to push Rahal through. Nice finish.

It was a good race. And you're right, Andretti would have been better off pushing Rahal. But that's Marco in a nut shell. Out for himself all the time, at all costs.

[garyshell]

Pretty decent oval race! That 3-wide affair with Rahal and all towards the end was pretty tense. Uncomfortably tense for me anyways. I think Andretti would have been better off trying to push Rahal through. Nice finish.


Agreed, I didn't understand why Andretti continued to run up high like that in the closing laps. (But then again, I often don't understand Marco.) I know it WAS his preferred line all night. But there was no way that strategy would pay off in the end. Was he a lap down then? Because he finished in 11th. But I don't remember if he fell back in the last couple of laps or was up on the high side a lap down. Was he running for position with Graham?

Gary

[SarahFan]

they did have another year of a paying contract with ABC/ESPN......today?.... I dont know if I'll be able to watch the next race as it VS will be 'black' at my house...

I'd suggest warts and all that that deals looks pretty darn good and the folks who are in charge (hell, who's actually in charge at this point?) looks pretty good

some names have been kicked around...... but if it were me..... I'd find somebody who has worked under david stern awhile........not sure where you stand on the NBA, but David seems to get the balance between TV, On Court, Players, teams and owners......might be an interesting place 'outside the box' to start peeking around.......

*we have a guy locally who owns RSL, our pro soccer team.... dave checkets....... he came from basketball and has transitioned fairly well....just an example

Marketing?... well pointing the finger from behind my computer is easy.... clearly Gene wasn't the guy.....but the first step would be to fire Talkin Terry.... but I cant imagine with the turn over at 16th and gtown he is going to be around much longer.... and if IMS hands over the reins (cant really see it being sold for much anyhow) to a collection of owners then hopefully he wont be part of the package

I dont bake.... make a mean sauce, but baking is a whole other thing...
but we can attend races, take friends, encourage them to watch...... I do




Any of them offering up cash, or at least a quality on air product?



Any ideas on who this commissionar would be? How would that structure differ from CART?



Agreeed on the marketing one. Anyone out there that could do this? I honestly don't know anything about marketing companies. The production quality on VS seems much better to me than on ABC, although there have been some flub-ups in the past couple of races that I'm not sure about.



Yep. What do we do to raise a bit of cash? Bake sale? :-)


See isn't answering questions and having a discussion more fun than arguing about nothing?

[chuck34]

they did have another year of a paying contract with ABC/ESPN......today?.... I dont know if I'll be able to watch the next race as it VS will be 'black' at my house...

And the ratings on ABC/ESPN were/are trending which way? The IRL was being, shock of shocks, pro-active. They were trying to do something that would hopefully work out positivley. We'll see if it does in the long run or not. ONE year is not enough to know. Even assuming that they staied on ABC/ESPN, they would be negotiating a new contract now with pretty much the same players. So what would have been better then?

As for DirecTV, I'm in the same boat. You written any letters yet?


I'd suggest warts and all that that deals looks pretty darn good and the folks who are in charge (hell, who's actually in charge at this point?) looks pretty good

I'm not understanding that at all.


some names have been kicked around...... but if it were me..... I'd find somebody who has worked under david stern awhile........not sure where you stand on the NBA, but David seems to get the balance between TV, On Court, Players, teams and owners......might be an interesting place 'outside the box' to start peeking around.......

I'm not a b'ball fan, professional anyway. I don't think Stern would be good because I used to be a b'ball fan, you know back when they followed the rules of basketball, like traveling and charging and stuff. But if you like him, great, at least you are finally discussing things.


Marketing?... well pointing the finger from behind my computer is easy.... clearly Gene wasn't the guy.....but the first step would be to fire Talkin Terry.... but I cant imagine with the turn over at 16th and gtown he is going to be around much longer.... and if IMS hands over the reins (cant really see it being sold for much anyhow) to a collection of owners then hopefully he wont be part of the package

What else are we doing other than pointing fingers from behind computers? Gene was bad from the start, agreed. I don't know much about Terry.


I dont bake.... make a mean sauce, but baking is a whole other thing...
but we can attend races, take friends, encourage them to watch...... I do

I do the same.

[Marbles]

I'd find somebody who has worked under david stern awhile.

That's what the NHL did a decade and a half ago. His name is Gary Bettman. He was to be their savior. The NHL is on Versus too. :)

[SarahFan]

do you think its DirectTV that is in the wrong?

do you think the folks currently in charge of the IRL are happy with what has transpired this season on VS?... besides Long beach I'd suggest, and this is clearly my opinion, every ratings has been sub what was expected....culminating in the very real possibility that the final 2 races wont be aired on the countries largest provider?

do you think if they had a 'do over' they would resign the deal?

I'll drop you a PM on NBA rules

terry says the irl is in third stage discussions with a title sponsor



And the ratings on ABC/ESPN were/are trending which way? The IRL was being, shock of shocks, pro-active. They were trying to do something that would hopefully work out positivley. We'll see if it does in the long run or not. ONE year is not enough to know. Even assuming that they staied on ABC/ESPN, they would be negotiating a new contract now with pretty much the same players. So what would have been better then?

As for DirecTV, I'm in the same boat. You written any letters yet?



I'm not understanding that at all.



I'm not a b'ball fan, professional anyway. I don't think Stern would be good because I used to be a b'ball fan, you know back when they followed the rules of basketball, like traveling and charging and stuff. But if you like him, great, at least you are finally discussing things.



What else are we doing other than pointing fingers from behind computers? Gene was bad from the start, agreed. I don't know much about Terry.



I do the same.

[SarahFan]

That's what the NHL did a decade and a half ago. His name is Gary Bettman. He was to be their savior. The NHL is on Versus too. :)

thats a fair statement...

[SoCalPVguy]

LA TIMES ARTICLE TODAY:

SALIENT POINTS: 1. Versus's 75-million homes just became 61-million homes now that D-TV is no longer showing it. BTW ABC for example is in about 115-120-Million housholds.

2. Note that in the discussion of "major" sports carried by Versus NO WHERE does Indy Car EVEN APPEAR IN THE ARTICLE. Great job guys, getting that Indy name out there.

3. Per the article, " DirecTV does not deny that it wants to place Versus on a tier of service with less reach". Great even less houshold distribution.

CONCLUSION: Indy Car must do WHATEVER it takes to get out of the Versus deal - in ten yewars it'l kill Indycar dead !!!

Call it Goliath Versus Goliath.

Cable giant Comcast Corp. is locked in an ugly battle with satellite broadcaster DirecTV over the sports channel Versus. Unable to strike a new deal with Comcast, DirecTV on Tuesday dropped carriage of Versus to its 14 million subscribers.

Such disputes are usually resolved behind the scenes, but not in this case. After removing Versus from its lineup, DirecTV slapped a notice on the channel the network had occupied, announcing: "Comcast, which owns Versus, has forced us to take down the channel because we will not submit to their unfair and outrageous demands."

DirecTV alleges that Versus, which is best known for its Tour de France and National Hockey League coverage, is trying to gouge the distributor by seeking a "more than 20% rate hike." Neither side would talk specifics, but people familiar with the situation say Versus wants an increase from about 21 cents to 26 cents per subscriber per month.

Comcast counters that this isn't about money.

"DirecTV likes to cloud the facts," said Jamie Davis, president of Versus. Davis said DirecTV wanted to move Versus to a package that would let it reach only 6.3 million of the broadcaster's subscribers.

DirecTV does not deny that it wants to place Versus on a tier of service with less reach, but it says Comcast already has similar arrangements with other distributors. The satellite-TV provider, in a statement, called Comcast's position "piggish."

This feud is not an isolated incident. Comcast and DirecTV have had a particularly acrimonious relationship lately. The companies are involved in arbitration cases over carriage of regional sports networks owned by Comcast in Northern California and New England.

But such disputes are not limited to those two media behemoths. As the programming and distribution sides of the entertainment industry get more consolidated, such battles are becoming common. Over the last few years Dish Network has been involved in squabbles with both Lifetime and Nickelodeon.

This tiff is getting a lot of attention because Comcast is both a programmer and a distributor. It had a drawn-out fight with the National Football League because it didn't want to place the NFL Network on one of its most popular services. Comcast carried the network in a sports package that reached only 3 million homes; after a long dust-up, it moved the network to a package that reaches 11 million homes. Now it finds itself on the opposite side of the equation, with a distributor not wanting to carry one of its channels on one of its more popular platforms.

Versus, which was available in 75 million homes until DirecTV dropped it, is Comcast's attempt to become a player in the sports television business. It has been aggressively going after major sports over the last few years, trying to distance the channel from its past when it was known as the Outdoor Life Network and best known for fishing and hunting shows.

In addition to the Tour de France and the NHL, Versus has rights to college football, including Big 12 and Pac-10 games. Versus tried unsuccessfully to get an NFL package a few years ago and will probably be a bidder again when the deals are up in 2014.

Versus' cost pales in comparison with ESPN's. That network charges distributors almost $4 per subscriber but has a much more powerful lineup of sports, including professional football and baseball.

joe.flint@latimes.com textSize() Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com/)


http://www.latimes.com/

[indycool]

Ken, safety people include the IRL's safety staff, engineers, safety experts like John Melvin and Dean Sicking, input from veteran team members, input from car manufacturers and probably a lot of other entities I've left out that direct their efflorts toward safety.

And SoCal, again, those deals are going to crop up all over the TV guide and change. Wouldn't surprise me much if they reached agreement with Versus tomorrow.

[SarahFan]

Ken, safety people include the IRL's safety staff, engineers, safety experts like John Melvin and Dean Sicking, input from veteran team members, input from car manufacturers and probably a lot of other entities I've left out that direct their efflorts toward safety.

.


cool.... are there some articles or interviews you can reference where they speciffically discuss 237 and safety?.... or are these personnel discussions you have had with them?.... or those simply the names of a few people who might have an issue with the safty of 237?

[indycool]

Those are the people who have created the thinking of today and today's safety features and progress.

No, I can't cite an interview with any of them. But I can cite a PA interview with Jimmy Bryan in the '50s when Bryan said, "when 148 won't make the field, I won't be here." I heard that. In the late '70s, there were complaints by some drivers, including Wally Dallenbach as a leader, saying slow 'em down. And remember CART's episode at Texas.

And other than yourself, I can think of reading no recommendations made by any of the current generation of players to increase speed at Indianapolis.

[chuck34]

do you think its DirectTV that is in the wrong?

I think they are both in a p!ssing match, and both are wrong.


do you think the folks currently in charge of the IRL are happy with what has transpired this season on VS?

I think they were probably ok with it until this DirecTV deal. And I'm not sure how far back they knew about that. I'd suggest though that they didn't know at the start. And a few months back they probably did know, but figured it would resolve itself. I wonder how many times this happens with other networks, and we just don't hear about it.


... besides Long beach I'd suggest, and this is clearly my opinion, every ratings has been sub what was expected....culminating in the very real possibility that the final 2 races wont be aired on the countries largest provider?

You have no way of knowing that, and neither do I. But I would be surprised if anyone (IRL, VS, any sponsors) really thought the ratings would go up this year.


do you think if they had a 'do over' they would resign the deal?

Take the DirecTV stuff out, and I'd say yes. But knowing exactly how the DircTV thing played out, of course not. That's not the way business works though. You make decissions based on your best judgment at the time. Sometimes things work out well sometimes not. You seem to be implying that everyone was expecting a giant jump in the ratings, and base everything on that. I really don't think that is the case. I believe that over the long haul, the ratings are expected to go up. We'll see how it plays out.


terry says the irl is in third stage discussions with a title sponsor

And you KNOW that's not true?

[indycool]

I don't think the IRL expected a microwave effect with Versus, nor vice versa, for probably the next two or three years, and then it's probably going to go a little at a time.

How could any of us -- or DirecTV or Versus, for that matter -- know who we even THINK is wrong. Obviously, THEY rhink the other is wrong. We not only don't know what the cards were on the table, we don't know how that game is played when we talk about amounts of cash.

I think the IRL is happy with the product Versus is putting on the air and I don't think they expected a microwave jolt in ratings.

I wouldn't be surprised if they thought that, Chuck, I'd be shocked to the funny farm.

Who knows who they have talked to or are talking to about a series sponsor and how much money? What does "third stage" mean? How many "stages" are there?

[chuck34]

I wouldn't be surprised if they thought that, Chuck, I'd be shocked to the funny farm.


Thought what? I'm missing something with that comment?

[SarahFan]

Those are the people who have created the thinking of today and today's safety features and progress.

No, I can't cite an interview with any of them. But I can cite a PA interview with Jimmy Bryan in the '50s when Bryan said, "when 148 won't make the field, I won't be here." I heard that. In the late '70s, there were complaints by some drivers, including Wally Dallenbach as a leader, saying slow 'em down. And remember CART's episode at Texas.

And other than yourself, I can think of reading no recommendations made by any of the current generation of players to increase speed at Indianapolis.

so your 'opinion' is based on a PA announcement from 50 or so years ago and a couple driver comments 30 or more years ago?

and I am certainly not a 'player'....but a poll at TF with over 200 votes was in favor of a new track record...

just out of curiosity have you heard from a single 'player' since 1996 that a new track record would be unsafe?

[garyshell]

and I am certainly not a 'player'....but a poll at TF with over 200 votes was in favor of a new track record...

just out of curiosity have you heard from a single 'player' since 1996 that a new track record would be unsafe?


Lets set the record straight about that poll. (See the attachment.) Yes, the majority were in favor, but I'd hardly call this an endorsement of the concept. There were a significant number of people against the concept.

Have you talked to a single 'player" since 1996 that thinks a new track record is safe or even desirable?

Gary

[SarahFan]

Have you talked to a single 'player" since 1996 that thinks a new track record is safe or even desirable?

Gary

nope... nor have a I claimed too

I'm simply a fan who thinks it would be a shot in arm for a a sport that desperatly needs it

[indycool]

Chuck, I was amplifying on your statement that you'd be surprised if everyone thought the deal would move mountains.

Ken, certainly it would be a shot in the arm promotionally. And no, I haven't heard drivers complain about the speed since '96. Would I hear complaints about speed if it went to 240 now? IMO, I would.

[SarahFan]

Chuck, I was amplifying on your statement that you'd be surprised if everyone thought the deal would move mountains.

Ken, certainly it would be a shot in the arm promotionally. And no, I haven't heard drivers complain about the speed since '96. Would I hear complaints about speed if it went to 240 now? IMO, I would.


well then what should the IRL do?

simply wait and see if the DTV deal works out favorably.... then hope and pray an hour of prerace with Jack arute is the answer?

[chuck34]

Chuck, I was amplifying on your statement that you'd be surprised if everyone thought the deal would move mountains.



Cool IC, I thought that's what you were saying, but wasn't sure.

[chuck34]

well then what should the IRL do?

simply wait and see if the DTV deal works out favorably.... then hope and pray an hour of prerace with Jack arute is the answer?

The IRL should bring whatever pressure that can exert (probably not much) to seek a resolution between DTV and VS.

Then the IRL should force VS into doing what (I would assume) is in their contract about cross promotion/more promotion.

[SarahFan]

Chuck... i assume you like me have not seen the contract...

but IYO do think there are some performance clauses in the contract?

[chuck34]

Chuck... i assume you like me have not seen the contract...

but IYO do think there are some performance clauses in the contract?

I have not see that contract. But I have seen other contracts that are sort of, in a round about way, simmilar. And yes they do have performance clauses.

I would be shocked if the contract didn't have some sort of "VS will do X" clause in it.

[SarahFan]

I have not see that contract. But I have seen other contracts that are sort of, in a round about way, simmilar. And yes they do have performance clauses.

I would be shocked if the contract didn't have some sort of "VS will do X" clause in it.


but

do they have 'versus will do X+ if ratings are Y?

and Versus is only responsible for X- if ratings are Z

?

[chuck34]

but

do they have 'versus will do X+ if ratings are Y?

and Versus is only responsible for X- if ratings are Z

?

I would doubt it. The negotiations I'm somewhat involved in now (although in a slightly different field) make no mention of ratings. Just company X will do Y in order to promote company Z. Nothing about ratings, and I would bet that the IRL wouldn't put that in.

Why would they? If the ratings are low, wouldn't you want your "partner network" to work harder to promote? And VS wouldn't want to agree to that because if the ratings are low, they may not want to spend more money on it. Therefore you end up in the middle ground of, company X will do Y in order to promote company Z.

[indycool]

Ken, you have a unique ability to keep these things going when you're essentially saying the same thing. If you think ONE safety matter is the key to the chastity belt, she's gonna be a virgin for a long time, IMO.

[SarahFan]

Ken, you have a unique ability to keep these things going when you're essentially saying the same thing. If you think ONE safety matter is the key to the chastity belt, she's gonna be a virgin for a long time, IMO.


I'm not the guy who has cited safety safety safety for the past year.... then trotted out a few names backed by a PA announcement from the 50's

[indycool]

....and that 237 was discussed as too much back in '96 and 240 was discussed as too much at Fontana and the CART situation at Texas......

[SarahFan]

....and that 237 was discussed as too much back in '96 and 240 was discussed as too much at Fontana and the CART situation at Texas......

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=Arie+Luyendyk+sets+track+record+at+Indy&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

^so i punched in 'Arie Luyendyk sets track record at Indy' into google....

a list of articles popped up... about Arie speed... and Scotts crash.....read them for your self...

not a single mention of going TOO fast...

there is a single mention of the IRL lowering horsepower so it was excepted whoever set the record was going to hold it for a long tome to come, but no mention of safety in the comment



so who exactly was discussing it?

[SarahFan]

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/VASSER+CLAIMS+FIRST+U.S.+500.(SPORTS)-a083935254

^ heres an article about the US500... it mentions they were racing at 232mph.... nothing about it being too fast

[SarahFan]

-----It seems that no matter what is done to control speed for safety’s sake, the engineering geniuses will find a way to make the cars go faster, and the teams and drivers will continue to push the limits.


It’s why they race.

“I remember a few years ago, they knocked us down to 212, 213 (mph) when they went to a different spec,” driver Robby Gordon said. “By last year, we were already back up to the 230s again.”

“With the engineers and the technology that IndyCar racing has, the IRL will slow us down, and we’ll go to work to figure out how to go faster.”

That’s the way it’s always been.--------

[indycool]

Yes, that's the way it's always been.

[penske15]

Agree, Gary. The "500" start time was moved to attract West Coast TV viewers at a good time. Having it on Monday gives you no "rain room" at all. The "500" start time gives you LESS "rain room."

Versus is giving a LOT of QUALITY coverage. The downside is it's a small channel.

As I've said many times, it's going to take a lot of time to get it better.

espn used to be a small channel too remember. this deal with versus is going to take some time to mature. 2 or 3 more seasons for sure.