Alonso slower than Grosjean [Archive]

PDA

View Full Version : Alonso slower than Grosjean

Garry Walker

23rd August 2009, 16:39

DexDexter

23rd August 2009, 16:54

Garry Walker

23rd August 2009, 16:55

But as we know Alonso is great car developer, or is he?

Thats why Renault, for the 2nd season in row, is nowhere.

UltimateDanGTR

23rd August 2009, 16:58

Thats why Renault, for the 2nd season in row, is nowhere.

and hence why fernando will be at ferrari next year.

well done to grosjean though, beating alonso on his debut in terms of fastest lap speed, he was unfortunate today with a first lap incident but hopefully he will get himself a few points before the end of the season, and maybe be paired with a nice team mate next year like kubica.

Saint Devote

23rd August 2009, 16:58

UltimateDanGTR

23rd August 2009, 17:14

No, you are exposing that you dislike Alonso.

I dont like alonso. he's an arrogant (beep!) truth be told. thats my opinion. im allowed to express it. ;) he is a great driver no question, he deserved the 2 championships he won, very fast guy when in a good car, but i still dislike him. why? because he whined when his team mate was given the same treatment as him in 2007 and didnt like being beaten by a guy in the same car (technically they finished equal in the end though, so there was nothing to whine about) he tried to ruin his own team mates race in hungary 2007, and he assumed that he should be the most important and centre of attention when at mclaren. he was wrong. ;)

but the fact that i dislike alonso has nothing to do with my analysis of grosjean's first race. we cant compare him to piquet jnr yet anyway, the guy has only had 1 race. now what i saw this weekend was a bit of talent behind that rookie outlining, he's a rookie, he did just as well as piquet was doing when piquet was 1 1/2 years into his F1 career.

so do excuse me, for having my own opinion :p

Tazio

23rd August 2009, 17:29

UltimateDanGTR

23rd August 2009, 17:41

Fred wasted RG today. Check the results! :arrows:
RG finished 1 minute and 4 seconds behind FA in p15
Fastest lap of the race T. Glock P14. Wow! :dozey:
I'm sure he will round into a very good driver.
But today was no contest!

there is no doubt that alonso is faster than grosjean, as if that needed saying. 1 minute 4 seconds is a long time, but remember grosjean made an unschedualed stop. you are right, alonso hammered grosjean. but at least grosjean showed an ounce of speed, which is more than i can say for piquet jnr IMO. (apart from hockenheim 08, granted) so there is promise. a little glimmer of promise. how far this promise goes is yet to be seen, he's certainly no future champ, but could be a good runner. or at least, better than piquet jnr, although its WAY too early to call

52Paddy

23rd August 2009, 18:01

I thought Grosjean displayed tremendous race-craft in GP2 so I believed he was worthy of an F1 seat in 2010. His performance today wasn't exactly lightening fast but, for his first race, one can't assume that that is the mark of a future world champion. I think that that argument must sit a while until we have more races to properly analyse him on. In Valencia, he did a good job :up: Not remarkable but he hasn't made a fool of himself or damaged any reputation he built up from GP2. I don't expect him to beat Alonso when paired with him in the same team. But I expect he will learn fast and get a grip on the new formula in time enough to attempt making a name for himself at the top.

F1boat

23rd August 2009, 18:03

Romain was hurt by the crash, he could have finished better.

christophulus

23rd August 2009, 18:11

Grosjean did a perfectly adequate job, if he performs well for the rest of the year then no doubt he'll be at Renault for 2010. No better than Piquet result-wise, but being no worse on his debut is good enough for now :up:

gloomyDAY

23rd August 2009, 18:17

This is a pitiful attempt at stretching the truth.
Fastest lap times don't mean squat if you don't finish in the points.

I'm glad you're not a lawyer G-Dubbya.

jens

23rd August 2009, 18:49

Fastest lap and "being close in qualifying" doesn't mean anything.

But anyway...
Shame that Romain lost bits of his car early on and later spun, hopefully he'll do better in the future. I quite like him (could be in the group of my favourites :D ) and he seems like a funny guy. In GP2 he seemed like a bit of a crazy racer and I hope that he has brought his sheer pace and aggression into F1 too. But at the same time he will hopefully be calm enough to drive consistently well throughout the whole Grand Prix, which didn't quite work out this time.

race_director

23rd August 2009, 19:17

Grosjeans fastest lap 1'39''428, set on lap 41
Alonsos fastest lap 1'39''494, set on lap 46

In qualifying he was also quite close to Alonso. This is a guy with very little experience in an f1 car and on such a difficult circuit.

Is he exposing alonso as an overrated emotional prick, will he be the third teammate to beat Alonso?

another waste post bashing a driver for no reason.
i am not alonso fan. but i am fan for his commitment . Garry if i take u back to 2007. MCL were able to match ferrari in 2007 cuz alonso was the one who could use the stolen data, regardless right or wrong to perfection .

regardless how much ever u cry or fall on feet. alonso finished in points. with the data u trying to prove about fastest laps. that only can be confirmed by the team. no one knows how much fuel Grosjeans was carrying. may be he was running on vapor's

a total waist post. showing the man hatred and anger.

ClarkFan

23rd August 2009, 20:43

Fred wasted RG today. Check the results! :arrows:
RG finished 1 minute and 4 seconds behind FA in p15
Fastest lap of the race T. Glock P14. Wow! :dozey:
I'm sure he will round into a very good driver.
But today was no contest!
That was a snarling competition for 14th! Nothing like napping through 3/4 of the race to set you up to pull fastest lap near the end..... ;)

ClarkFan

F1boat

23rd August 2009, 20:45

another waste post bashing a driver for no reason.

That seems like a tradition in the forum, sadly. :(

Tazio

23rd August 2009, 21:16

woody2goody

23rd August 2009, 22:51

I think RG had a very good debut! I'm really pulling for him.
I just think the comparison is useless.
I haven't seen the replay, but losing his front end may have been due to his lack of experience. Otherwise a very acceptable race.
That fast lap may very well be strung together with alot more in the future.
I suspect he is going to be around for a while :up:

Couldn't agree more Taz. He did one of the fastest laps and had a great qualifying, even though the car wasn't quite up to it.

I thought he did very well, despite the stupid haircut :D

jens

23rd August 2009, 23:35

I thought he did very well, despite the stupid haircut :D

Haha, I find that "stupid haircut" quite fun actually, it distinguishes him from the rest of the field. :D

wedge

24th August 2009, 00:16

ShiftingGears

24th August 2009, 00:57

Needless to say Glock set fastest lap of the race in the Toyota and therefore FASTEST DRIVER IN THE FIELD

Saint Devote

24th August 2009, 01:53

Needless to say Glock set fastest lap of the race in the Toyota and therefore FASTEST DRIVER IN THE FIELD

Fastest lap is also one of the quirkiest stats in racing and cannot be taken out of context.

Glock's lap was set with 2 laps remaining amd at a time when those up front are seeking to solidfy their positions generally.

That is not to say that Timo is not a solid journeyman driver - he is and deserves to be in an f1 car.

And yes it is a nice stat to have anyway :-\

truefan72

24th August 2009, 03:03

This is a pitiful attempt at stretching the truth.
Fastest lap times don't mean squat if you don't finish in the points.

I'm glad you're not a lawyer G-Dubbya.

lol, well said

speeddurango

24th August 2009, 06:57

Nah, fastest lap doesn't mean everything, but it's not that it means nothing either.

Last tested an F1 car long time ago, first time out and his quickest lap matched his teammate at a similar time of the day on a similar strategy, you know what that means? That certainly doesn't mean he's already as excellent as Alonso, but he's the one ppl should keep an eye on.

DexDexter

24th August 2009, 08:05

As somebody wrote here, it's too early to tell. Let's wait after Spa at least. If, and there is a big if, Grosjean beat Alonso, it would be very interesting to see what kind of reaction would follow...

Big Ben

24th August 2009, 08:14

Hawkmoon

24th August 2009, 08:56

Until they give points for fastest lap, may that day never come, it doesn't mean dick. Raikkonen set/matched a single season record for fastest laps last year with 10. How many races did he win?

wedge

24th August 2009, 12:41

The only more stupid claim would be to state that the fastest driver out there is the one that sets the best top speed.

Sometimes I'm amazed how stupid can emotions make someone behave.

True, but GW does a point with qualifying. RG was only a few tenths behind Alonso in Q1 and Q2

stevie_gerrard

24th August 2009, 14:56

I think Grosjean did a solid job for his debut GP and now needs to build on that performance and get himself reguarly close to or in the points to prove his worth.

Garry Walker

24th August 2009, 15:13

No, you are exposing that you dislike Alonso.

The end result is important here and Grosjean - albeit his first grsnd prix - did no better than Piquet.

Grosjean is no Vettel-ian discovery and perhaps Piquet is not as bad as I think.

Grosjean was pretty much able to match the pace of Alonso in this race.
From lap 29 to lap finish (57 laps), Grosjean lost 8,5 seconds to Alonso only. They were on the same strategy. So Grosjean was very close to the pace of Alonso, this without testing at all and on quite a difficult circuit, in his first ever GP.

This is a pitiful attempt at stretching the truth.
Fastest lap times don't mean squat if you don't finish in the points.

I'm glad you're not a lawyer G-Dubbya.

I never said otherwise, I just pointed out that Grosjean was close to the pace of Alonso pace today. For the so-called best driver in F1, Alonso sure was not that impressive against a rookie (ONCE AGAIN) in a team that is totally geared around Alonso.

another waste post bashing a driver for no reason.
i am not alonso fan. but i am fan for his commitment . Garry if i take u back to 2007. MCL were able to match ferrari in 2007 cuz alonso was the one who could use the stolen data, regardless right or wrong to perfection .
.
gahd dfhdfhfd iidhdfd sssabvbxmhsdhdgsd hkjkhjpev ssshd
That makes as much sense as your post.

The only more stupid claim would be to state that the fastest driver out there is the one that sets the best top speed.

Sometimes I'm amazed how stupid can emotions make someone behave.

You did not understand what I posted at all, so that highlights how truthful what you said is indeed. Emotions make people stupid.

DexDexter

24th August 2009, 15:22

wedge

24th August 2009, 16:35

You did not understand what I posted at all, so that highlights how truthful what you said is indeed. Emotions make people stupid.

It's clear you don't like Alonso. With that POV its easy for prejudice to take over and use statistics to twist facts to support your POV.

this without testing at all and on quite a difficult circuit

He raced there in GP2.

ioan

24th August 2009, 17:05

All I can say is that using fastest laps is a very poor attempt to prove something, anything.

jimakos

24th August 2009, 17:19

All I can say is that using fastest laps is a very poor attempt to prove something, anything.

Absolutely right!
Have a look in this race that the fastest lap was by Glock but what he finally did?NOTHING ;)

race_director

24th August 2009, 17:58

Absolutely right!
Have a look in this race that the fastest lap was by Glock but what he finally did?NOTHING ;)

IMO me alonso is a class part from any driver in the current grid. u give a car like red bull or Brawn. he will be untouchable?

he is the most agressive driver on the grid. i do not remember him seeing crash into a wall during the race. that the class of a true champion. he knows his limits

leopard

24th August 2009, 18:27

Grosjean drives a bit aggressive, reminds me of the first season of Heikki on Renault. Provided he can improve to have better know-how when he has to drive fast and when he has to open the brake, he could be a speed material.

Style of driving sometimes reflects original character of drivers, that to change it to be more productive to deliver end result is not something easy. He should learn in the remaining races of this season on how to race more controllably. Next year is clear start off to tell us about his talent, unless if Renault has own parameter to measure whether or not drivers work out on the car and replace them whenever unsatisfied with the performance.

jens

24th August 2009, 18:45

Perception is everything. Isn't it funny that Kimi seems to look very good again, now that he has a slower teammate and the team is concentrating on him, while in reality he is not slower or faster than before. One could argue that Alonso has a similar situation, some people here think that he is driving the Renault beyond its capabilities, while in reality he has had one of the weakest drivers in F1 as a teammate for the last two years. I do rate Alonso though, let's make that clear.

True. :up: Hamilton and Rosberg look like racing gods alongside their current team-mates as well. Hopefully they will all get great team-mates for next year, so we can finally start discussing properly, how good anyone is. ;)

Also Vettel seemed better last year. I'm afraid that as he has got a really fast team-mate alongside him for this year, it has hurt his reputation a bit.

52Paddy

24th August 2009, 21:18

will he be the third teammate to beat Alonso?

What are you talking about? Alonso has never been beaten in the drivers' championship standings in his entire F1 career. Nor was he beaten in 2000 when he finished 4th for Team Astromega in the F3000 International series.

Let me just put something to you. In 2000, he was 4th in F3000 when his team mate could only score 6 points (Marc Goosens) and finish somewhere like 12th. With Minardi in 2001, he showed up Tarso Marques (who had previous F1 experience) and Alex Yoong. Despite not scoring points, he showed potential. When he joined Renault for the stint between 2003-2006, he wiped the floor with both Trulli and Fisichella as team-mates, including obviously winning two championships. Bear in mind that he spent 2003 and 2004 as Renault's second driver. The McLaren move in 2007 obviously gave him a bad name in many respects. I have to believe that your hate stems from this period. Regardless, he did well that year. Yes, his rookie team-mate Hamilton beat him in the end. But they scored the same amount of points and same amount of wins. Only 5 second places to Alonso's 4 gave Hamilton his 2nd place overall.
Also remember, Hamilton had lasting connections with Ron Dennis since his karting days. It was new territory for Alonso. I'm not making excuses, but I guess Hamilton felt more 'at home' than Alonso. Then, back to Renault in 2008, he made the best out of a dog-of-a-car to finish 5th overall with 2 wins, to Piquet's 12th. In 2009, Piquet scored no points all year. Grosjean didn't make it to Q3 in Valencia. He finished over 1 minute behind Alonso. By all means, a credible performance, but nothing to make Alonso shakey.

Now, who are these three team-mates you speak of Walker?

jens

24th August 2009, 21:24

When he joined Renault for the stint between 2003-2006, he wiped the floor with both Trulli and Fisichella as team-mates, including obviously winning two championships. Bear in mind that he spent 2003 and 2004 as Renault's second driver.

Alonso didn't "wipe the floor" with Trulli. Yes, overall he was better, but not that significantly. And what on earth do you mean with that #2 driver stuff in 03-04? :p :

52Paddy

24th August 2009, 22:33

Alonso didn't "wipe the floor" with Trulli. Yes, overall he was better, but not that significantly. And what on earth do you mean with that #2 driver stuff in 03-04? :p :

I would say quite significantly. He scored 4 podiums (including a win) to Trulli's one third place in 2003. In 2004, a year dominated by Ferrari with Button being 'best of the rest', Alonso was next in line. The difference was more marginal with Trulli this time, yes, but he still scored a consistent run of points finishes and several podiums. Trulli did win a race that year, but he didn't have the consistency. In fact, Trulli was on bad terms with Flavio at the end of the season and JV replaced him at some point!!

Alonso ran as car #8 in 2003/2004. Car #7 was Trulli. Alonso 'joined' Trulli at Renault, having been promoted from test-driving duties. Therefore he's the #2 driver. :)

jens

25th August 2009, 16:57

I would say quite significantly. He scored 4 podiums (including a win) to Trulli's one third place in 2003. In 2004, a year dominated by Ferrari with Button being 'best of the rest', Alonso was next in line. The difference was more marginal with Trulli this time, yes, but he still scored a consistent run of points finishes and several podiums. Trulli did win a race that year, but he didn't have the consistency. In fact, Trulli was on bad terms with Flavio at the end of the season and JV replaced him at some point!!

Alonso ran as car #8 in 2003/2004. Car #7 was Trulli. Alonso 'joined' Trulli at Renault, having been promoted from test-driving duties. Therefore he's the #2 driver. :)

Alonso was better than Trulli in the first half of 2003, but in the second half of 2003 and first half of 2004 he was very close to Alonso. And Trulli was actually quite consistent in that period too. ;) As for Button being the "best of the rest" with Alonso behind him, then it was actually Trulli, who held P4 in WDC standings for quite a large part of the season.

As for the second driver stuff, well, what does the car number count? According to this Button was Honda's No2 driver in 2006 - so what? :p :

52Paddy

26th August 2009, 02:06

As for the second driver stuff, well, what does the car number count? According to this Button was Honda's No2 driver in 2006 - so what? :p :

I know that the car number doesn't 100% prove who is 2nd driver in a team, but Alonso was promoted from a test driver role. I really don't think he would jump from test driver in 2002, to being #1 the following year, especially considering Trulli had already been in the team the year previous. I'll try to check a reliable source though and find out for sure :)

Garry Walker

26th August 2009, 13:56

What are you talking about? Alonso has never been beaten in the drivers' championship standings in his entire F1 career. Nor was he beaten in 2000 when he finished 4th for Team Astromega in the F3000 International series.

Let me just put something to you. In 2000, he was 4th in F3000 when his team mate could only score 6 points (Marc Goosens) and finish somewhere like 12th. And that Marc guy sure has gone on to big things in racing.

With Minardi in 2001, he showed up Tarso Marques (who had previous F1 experience) and Alex Yoong. Very good teammates he had indeed :D

Bear in mind that he spent 2003 and 2004 as Renault's second driver.
He was not the 2nd driver and no, he didnt wipe the floor with Trulli in 2004. Before Briatore forced Trulli out, Trulli had more points than Alonso, he beat Alonso
I am sure you will have proof showing Alonso was nr.2 driver?

Also remember, Hamilton had lasting connections with Ron Dennis since his karting days. It was new territory for Alonso. I'm not making excuses, but I guess Hamilton felt more 'at home' than Alonso.Felt more at home? we had a rookie beat the world champion, feeling at home or not, that is a fact.

Then, back to Renault in 2008, he made the best out of a dog-of-a-car to finish 5th overall with 2 wins, to Piquet's 12th. In 2009, Piquet scored no points all year.That shows Piquets weakness.

Grosjean didn't make it to Q3 in Valencia. He finished over 1 minute behind Alonso. By all means, a credible performance, but nothing to make Alonso shakey. Grosjean crashed at the start and lost a huge amount of time there. In qualy he was only a few tenths off Alonso as well.
As I showed already, in the 2nd half of the race he was lapping almost on Alonsos pace (lost only like 8 seconds in the last 28 laps).

Now, who are these three team-mates you speak of Walker?
Learn to read cummy boy, I said " will grosjean be the third teammate to beat Alonso" indicating two have already beaten him in his career and so far two teammates have indeed beaten that primadonna. Grosjean might just be the third one

Alonso ran as car #8 in 2003/2004. Car #7 was Trulli. Alonso 'joined' Trulli at Renault, having been promoted from test-driving duties. Therefore he's the #2 driver. :)

Congrats, you might just one day win the darwin award.

Garry Walker

26th August 2009, 13:57

IMO me alonso is a class part from any driver in the current grid. u give a car like red bull or Brawn. he will be untouchable?

he is the most agressive driver on the grid. i do not remember him seeing crash into a wall during the race. that the class of a true champion. he knows his limits

sdgh sdfhdr hhhdf aas sdbvnvbmor

ioan

26th August 2009, 14:30

sdgh sdfhdr hhhdf aas sdbvnvbmor

:rotflmao: :up:

DexDexter

26th August 2009, 14:52

sdgh sdfhdr hhhdf aas sdbvnvbmor

:D

wedge

26th August 2009, 16:28

Grosjean crashed at the start and lost a huge amount of time there. In qualy he was only a few tenths off Alonso as well.
As I showed already, in the 2nd half of the race he was lapping almost on Alonsos pace (lost only like 8 seconds in the last 28 laps).

Alonso was in the midfield partly hindered by dirty air whereas Grosjean was at the back in cleaner miles behind the Toyotas.

If you thought that was utter nonsense, Barrichello constantly remained 4 seconds behind Hamilton because he didn't his car affected by the dirty air and then Jock Clear told him to "do what you gotta do" at the second pit window.

26th August 2009, 18:37

Alonso was in the midfield partly hindered by dirty air whereas Grosjean was at the back in cleaner miles behind the Toyotas.

If you thought that was utter nonsense, Barrichello constantly remained 4 seconds behind Hamilton because he didn't his car affected by the dirty air and then Jock Clear told him to "do what you gotta do" at the second pit window.

Wedge! Stop letting intelligence, logic and an understanding of motorsport get in the way of unintelligent, uninformed brain-dead knee-jerk gibbon-headed tirades!

DexDexter

26th August 2009, 18:42

Wedge! Stop letting intelligence, logic and an understanding of motorsport get in the way of unintelligent, uninformed brain-dead knee-jerk gibbon-headed tirades!

True, let's wait until Grosjean beats the 0.6 second guy.

DexDexter

26th August 2009, 18:43

52Paddy

26th August 2009, 19:15

And that Marc guy sure has gone on to big things in racing.

Like it matters. We're talking about team-mates here. There's 1 he DIDN'T get beaten by.

Very good teammates he had indeed :D

Regardless of the lack of talent Marques had, he was still beaten by Alonso (at the time, a rookie in F1) and Marques had driven an F1 car several times before. Yoong was a waste of space too, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they're two more team mates that DIDN'T beat Alonso.

He was not the 2nd driver and no, he didnt wipe the floor with Trulli in 2004. Before Briatore forced Trulli out, Trulli had more points than Alonso, he beat Alonso
I am sure you will have proof showing Alonso was nr.2 driver?

About 2nd driver, on reading his article on Wikipedia, it had claimed that he had 'joined Trulli' and been promoted from a test driving role. I admit that that was my sole piece of 'hard evidence' showing him at that status. I can understand now how he may not have been an official 2nd driver to Trulli. 'Wipe the floor' was over-estimating the situation too. This isn't an excuse, but the drivers' tables on wiki for the 2004 season actually seem mistaken :confused:

Felt more at home? we had a rookie beat the world champion, feeling at home or not, that is a fact.

But it doesn't show up Alonso. Ron Dennis was Hamilton's sugar daddy all year. Alonso, regardless of who was at fault, had a sour relationship with Ron and the team. It doesn't matter if you're rookie or world champion, your results are going to be affected if there's instability on your side of the team. Alonso finished on equal points, with equal wins. It went down to 2nd places to decide the outcome. World champion or not, he did bloody well in the circumstances he was driving in all year.

That shows Piquets weakness.

Does it yeah

Grosjean crashed at the start and lost a huge amount of time there. In qualy he was only a few tenths off Alonso as well.
As I showed already, in the 2nd half of the race he was lapping almost on Alonsos pace (lost only like 8 seconds in the last 28 laps).

Grosjean crashed because he's inexperienced. His pace is good, but he was pushing. Alonso was running in a lonely 6th place after the final stops, so things on his side were quiet. Its not a very worthy comparison, that race, because they were driving in two seperate worlds. Yes, it shows Grosjean's potential as a solid driver. Nothing more.

Learn to read cummy boy, I said " will grosjean be the third teammate to beat Alonso" indicating two have already beaten him in his career and so far two teammates have indeed beaten that primadonna. Grosjean might just be the third one

I can read just fine Mr Walker. Which two even? Trulli? Not statistically my feline friend. Hamilton? Maybe just, but giving the circumstances, that's scraping the barrel a bit much for my liking.

Congrats, you might just one day win the darwin award.

Now that's just tasteless. I never said anything bad against you and you go on like this. Give me a break :rolleyes:

Knock-on

27th August 2009, 10:06

555-04Q2

27th August 2009, 11:00

Grosjeans fastest lap 1'39''428, set on lap 41
Alonsos fastest lap 1'39''494, set on lap 46

In qualifying he was also quite close to Alonso. This is a guy with very little experience in an f1 car and on such a difficult circuit.

Is he exposing alonso as an overrated emotional prick, will he be the third teammate to beat Alonso?

I was very impressed with Grossy boys first outing, it was a great drive :up:

As for Alonso, I personally cant stand the guy, I think he is full of sh!t to be honest. BUT, he is the best driver on the F1 grid. His record speaks for itself. Look at his wins to starts record, points record, 2 X WDC titles etc. The guy is good no doubt about that. Renault fell apart while he was at Macca for a season.

52Paddy

28th August 2009, 09:45

It might be scraping the Barrel a bit for your liking but a Rookie coming into F1 and beating the reigning WDC is a fact. What is also a fact is that if not for punctures and one silly rookie mistake, he would have whooped his ass :D

Each to their own. Fair dues to Hamilton, he's a quick driver. Learns fast :up: But McLaren and Lewis go together like bread and butter. Alonso and McLaren clearly didn't. Had he been still with Renault, a team which he bonded well with, we may have seen a different story. That doesn't mean sh!t now, I know. But, nonetheless, I think the whole "rookie beating the world champion" is slightly over-rated given the circumstances. I accept that others will take it for what it is. That's fine. Personally, I look beyond the numbers. He was in the same car as Lewis, yes, but his relationship with the team ruined what could have been a much more fruitful year, IMO. To judge two drivers in the same car, I have to take team relations into account*.

*I guess I should have done that before I made my previous mark about Alonso whooping Trulli's ass. I'm only human.

Knock-on

28th August 2009, 10:56

Each to their own. Fair dues to Hamilton, he's a quick driver. Learns fast :up: But McLaren and Lewis go together like bread and butter. Alonso and McLaren clearly didn't. Had he been still with Renault, a team which he bonded well with, we may have seen a different story. That doesn't mean sh!t now, I know. But, nonetheless, I think the whole "rookie beating the world champion" is slightly over-rated given the circumstances. I accept that others will take it for what it is. That's fine. Personally, I look beyond the numbers. He was in the same car as Lewis, yes, but his relationship with the team ruined what could have been a much more fruitful year, IMO. To judge two drivers in the same car, I have to take team relations into account*.

*I guess I should have done that before I made my previous mark about Alonso whooping Trulli's ass. I'm only human.

:laugh: Fair points :up:

I think there is no reason why a team cannot get behind 2 drivers 100% and think McLaren were like this to start with. However, Freddy didn't expect to be pushed by a Rookie and after 3 races was thinking "WTF is this". Unfortunatly, instead of raising his game, he tried to supress the other driver instead which lead to the problems we saw. Blackmail and dirty tactics (from both) were always going to end in disaster.

I think it made both of them better drivers though and they both learned a valuable lesson.

woody2goody

28th August 2009, 11:02

:laugh: Fair points :up:

I think there is no reason why a team cannot get behind 2 drivers 100% and think McLaren were like this to start with. However, Freddy didn't expect to be pushed by a Rookie and after 3 races was thinking "WTF is this". Unfortunatly, instead of raising his game, he tried to supress the other driver instead which lead to the problems we saw. Blackmail and dirty tactics (from both) were always going to end in disaster.

I think it made both of them better drivers though and they both learned a valuable lesson.

So, as the latest rumour has it, would Fernando consider going back to McLaren to partner Hamilton again?

It would be a good chance for him to win the championship again, plus Ron Dennis is gone.

Knock-on

28th August 2009, 11:13

So, as the latest rumour has it, would Fernando consider going back to McLaren to partner Hamilton again?

It would be a good chance for him to win the championship again, plus Ron Dennis is gone.

Do you know what. I said it months ago and got laughed out of town but I can see them racing together one day.

The problem with Fred is he just didn't expect some rookie to be straight on his pace. FFS, not even I expected he to get up to speed quite as quickly and I've been waxing lyrical about the lad for years. Imagine what a shock it was to Fred and that's why he reacted with his "I'm WDC and who the hell does he think he is" act.

However, now, I think they have developed a respect for each other and have this sneaky feeling they may well end up on the same team one day.

Garry Walker

28th August 2009, 13:26

Alonso was in the midfield partly hindered by dirty air whereas Grosjean was at the back in cleaner miles behind the Toyotas.After lap 28, Alonso was always over 3 seconds behind the guy in front of him (except for 1 lap behind Hamilton). No dirty air there. If he had managed to go any quicker, he would have gone quicker to get closer to the guy in front to overtake in pits, but he wasnt able to go any quicker.

If you thought that was utter nonsense, Barrichello constantly remained 4 seconds behind Hamilton because he didn't his car affected by the dirty air and then Jock Clear told him to "do what you gotta do" at the second pit window.

He remained 4 seconds behind Hamilton because he was not able to go any quicker. If he had been able to go any quicker, he would have. Think about it, why stay 4 seconds behind someone when you dont know when that guy is pitting. To add to that, ff Hamilton had not had the pit problem, very likely RB would have exited behind him after pitstops.
In anycase, Barrichellos laptimes did not really improve after Hamilton pitted anyway (only a little, but that is normal as fuel load decreased and happens throughout the stint), so there goes your "theory"

To actually think Barrichello was holding the gap at 4 seconds to avoid dirty air and was not pushing the max, is so unbelieveably uninformed, it is astounding.

Wedge! Stop letting intelligence, logic and an understanding of motorsport get in the way of unintelligent, uninformed brain-dead knee-jerk gibbon-headed tirades!

The only tirades are what you post regarding KR when he doesnt sexually stimulate enough, unlike Alonso.

Like it matters. We're talking about team-mates here. There's 1 he DIDN'T get beaten by.I mentioned that he has been beaten by 2 teammates already. Where the hell did you bring out the rest of his teammates? It is obvious you have an obsession to protect your hero, but lets ignore irrelevant issues.

Regardless of the lack of talent Marques had, he was still beaten by Alonso (at the time, a rookie in F1) and Marques had driven an F1 car several times before. Yoong was a waste of space too, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they're two more team mates that DIDN'T beat Alonso.Who cares? I was only talking about two teammates who had beaten him. So why bring out Yoong and Tarso? To waste my time?

About 2nd driver, on reading his article on Wikipedia, it had claimed that he had 'joined Trulli' and been promoted from a test driving role. I admit that that was my sole piece of 'hard evidence' showing him at that status. I can understand now how he may not have been an official 2nd driver to Trulli.
Well, better late than never. If you ever were to apply to any university (unlikely), would you make references to wikipedia in your dissertations?

'Wipe the floor' was over-estimating the situation too. This isn't an excuse, but the drivers' tables on wiki for the 2004 season actually seem mistaken :confused: Trulli did not drive in all races for Renault, so the only fair thing to do is to count only the races they were together in the same team. If we do that, then Trulli beat Alonso in 2004.
Of course, we can do the opposite thing, in which case Irvine totally destroyed that Schumacher fellow in 1999

But it doesn't show up Alonso. Ron Dennis was Hamilton's sugar daddy all year. Alonso, regardless of who was at fault, had a sour relationship with Ron and the team. It doesn't matter if you're rookie or world champion, your results are going to be affected if there's instability on your side of the team. Alonso finished on equal points, with equal wins. It went down to 2nd places to decide the outcome. World champion or not, he did bloody well in the circumstances he was driving in all year. He was driving the best car on the grid, he had every chance to win the title, he was not disadvantaged in any way at all.

Does it yeahYeah, Piquet was taking that renault to the limit and driving brilliantly, but it was that Alonso guy who was able to make the worst car on the grid be able to fight for podiums. What a hero. What a man. What a HERO.

Grosjean crashed because he's inexperienced. His pace is good, but he was pushing. Alonso was running in a lonely 6th place after the final stops, so things on his side were quiet. Its not a very worthy comparison, that race, because they were driving in two seperate worlds. Yes, it shows Grosjean's potential as a solid driver. Nothing more.How do you know Grosjean was pushing and Alonso was not? Tell me. What reason did he have for pushing? No way to get to points, no car nearby. Why would he push?
Tell me.

I can read just fine Mr Walker. Which two even? Trulli? Not statistically my feline friend. Hamilton? Maybe just, but giving the circumstances, that's scraping the barrel a bit much for my liking. The only scraping the barrel is you trying to make up things that never were to hype up Alonso.
Fact is that both Trulli and Hamilton beat Alonso in WDC standings. That is a fact. You know what a fact is?

Now that's just tasteless. I never said anything bad against you and you go on like this. Give me a break :rolleyes: If you dont want me making fun of you, then improve the quality of your posts.

BUT, he is the best driver on the F1 grid. His record speaks for itself. Look at his wins to starts record, points record, 2 X WDC titles etc. The guy is good no doubt about that. Renault fell apart while he was at Macca for a season.

Renault fell apart because they concentrated all their development on the 2006 years car and did not have resources to concentrate on 2007 car.
Same thing happened with Ferrari and McLaren last year, which explains why this year they are not dominant anymore.
The quality of the car is not dependent on the driver in any way.

wedge

28th August 2009, 13:39

After lap 28, Alonso was always over 3 seconds behind the guy in front of him (except for 1 lap behind Hamilton). No dirty air there. If he had managed to go any quicker, he would have gone quicker to get closer to the guy in front to overtake in pits, but he wasnt able to go any quicker.

He remained 4 seconds behind Hamilton because he was not able to go any quicker. If he had been able to go any quicker, he would have. Think about it, why stay 4 seconds behind someone when you dont know when that guy is pitting. To add to that, ff Hamilton had not had the pit problem, very likely RB would have exited behind him after pitstops.
In anycase, Barrichellos laptimes did not really improve after Hamilton pitted anyway (only a little, but that is normal as fuel load decreased and happens throughout the stint), so there goes your "theory"

To actually think Barrichello was holding the gap at 4 seconds to avoid dirty air and was not pushing the max, is so unbelieveably uninformed, it is astounding.

Next you're going to accuse Jock Clear of being retarded?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/f1mole/2009/08/ted-kravitz-the-european-gp-fr.html

As Jock Clear explained after the race, even though Barrichello was in complete control of the situation, it looked like he was doing worse than he was, circulating a consistent four seconds behind Hamilton.

Barrichello was doing this so he could run in some clean air, and not have his aerodynamics ruined by the turbulence of the McLaren (this is a really big problem, now, and is the subject of much discussion by the FIA technical and overtaking working groups).

Garry Walker

28th August 2009, 13:44

Next you're going to accuse Jock Clear of being retarded?

BS.
1) No direct quote from Jock Clear
2) Why was he not able to improve his pace in a clear way then when Hamilton pitted? WHY?

555-04Q2

28th August 2009, 13:57

Renault fell apart because they concentrated all their development on the 2006 years car and did not have resources to concentrate on 2007 car.
Same thing happened with Ferrari and McLaren last year, which explains why this year they are not dominant anymore.
The quality of the car is not dependent on the driver in any way.

True, but they made no real progress in the year that Alonso was at Macca. Alonso returned and hey presto, progress during the season and a pair of wins. Dont underestimate Alonso's input into the successes Renault has.

wedge

28th August 2009, 14:33

BS.
1) No direct quote from Jock Clear
2) Why was he not able to improve his pace in a clear way then when Hamilton pitted? WHY?

1min39.071 and 1min38.990 before Ruben's second stop

Did mid 1min39s behind Hamilton

redson

28th August 2009, 14:51

Felt more at home? we had a rookie beat the world champion, feeling at home or not, that is a fact.

Yes, specially in Brazil, upps sorry I forgot that Lewis lost the championship because of a stupid overtaking attemp to Alonso.

Big Ben

28th August 2009, 14:58

Shouldn't Garry be banned by now? It's quite clear he can't behave in a civilized way. I suspect he's too old to hope for any improvements too.

DexDexter

28th August 2009, 15:13

True, but they made no real progress in the year that Alonso was at Macca. Alonso returned and hey presto, progress during the season and a pair of wins. Dont underestimate Alonso's input into the successes Renault has.

What about this year? :)

wedge

28th August 2009, 15:15

Shouldn't Garry be banned by now? It's quite clear he can't behave in a civilized way. I suspect he's too old to hope for any improvements too.

Nah

Much better to leave him alone to make a fool of himself with foolish biased comments

Tazio

28th August 2009, 15:49

True, let's wait until Grosjean beats the 0.6 second guy.
Why can't you get the .6 comment behind you?
Fred did a lot of immature things, and made some comments that he probably wishes he didn't.
I believe Fred has let go of his high and mighty attitude he got by whipping ass,
and winning two WDC in a row while demonstrating that He in his Renault were the best by a ligitamate margin!
Your comment is very, very low class IMHO,
and only shows you don’t want to objectively evaluate his current manifestation!

555-04Q2

28th August 2009, 15:54

What about this year? :)

Cant argue there :p :

This years Renault is just a midfield car. They seem to have made some progress since the start of the season, unfortunately for Renault the likes of Ferrari and Macca have just moved faster.

BeansBeansBeans

28th August 2009, 15:59

Shouldn't Garry be banned by now?

Absolutely not.

I like a lively discussion.

wedge

28th August 2009, 16:23

Straight from the horses' mouth:

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/8/9822.html

(MC) Can I ask a question to Romain to compare GP2 and F1 because sometimes we watch GP2 races and they seem to be pretty chaotic, whereas F1 seems to be relatively, can I say, sensible. What are your feelings about it?

RG: Well, to be honest I was quite surprised how difficult it is to follow a car in Formula One. I don’t know from where it came but for sure I was behind Luca Badoer for quite a long time in the first stint and I couldn’t get closer than 0.8s because you lose most of the downforce and the car goes much faster and this makes your life quite hard when you follow another car. I think there’s a different spirit of building the car. In GP2 all the cars are the same and the ground effect is quite big compared to the aero and in Formula One we are using more aerodynamic downforce than ground effect, so in the end it makes the race much harder to fight and to get close to another car

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=342051&FS=F1

Ross Brawn:

"That was a fantastic performance from Rubens today to take his first and Brawn GP's seventh win of the season. We knew that having a heavier fuel load would give us an advantage over the cars in front but Rubens had to drive at his absolute best to have a chance of victory. He pushed exactly where he needed to. When we got on the radio and told him that he had to put in some quick laps, he delivered."

Knock-on

28th August 2009, 17:04

Why can't you get the .6 comment behind you?
Fred did a lot of immature things, and made some comments that he probably wishes he didn't.
I believe Fred has let go of his high and mighty attitude he got by whipping ass,
and winning two WDC in a row while demonstrating that He in his Renault were the best by a ligitamate margin!

I agree.

The Fast Fred of today is a long way from the Arsey Alonso of McLaren days.

woody2goody

28th August 2009, 17:38

I agree.

The Fast Fred of today is a long way from the Arsey Alonso of McLaren days.

He's driving the f***ing wheels off it this year and he's got only 16 points to show for it :(

ioan

28th August 2009, 17:55

He's driving the f***ing wheels off it this year and he's got only 16 points to show for it :(

He should try harder.

woody2goody

28th August 2009, 18:10

He should try harder.

:rolleyes: Oh dear.

ioan

28th August 2009, 18:22

:rolleyes: Oh dear.

Can't wait for tomorrow afternoon! :p :

jens

28th August 2009, 18:30

I tend to agree with Garry Walker in this respect that trailing by 4 seconds behind is a bit too much for simply "keeping distance and staying in clean air". Approximately 2 secs would be fine if the driver behind knows that the driver ahead has several laps less fuel on-board.

William Hunt

29th August 2009, 00:22

Grosjean was vey impressive in Spa practice today: 5th time was awesome

Knock-on

29th August 2009, 08:47

He's driving the f***ing wheels off it this year and he's got only 16 points to show for it :(

Doesn't matter how many points he has. Some of us can see past our favourite driver and statistics ;)

He's performing better and as a person, appears more balanced and matured.

I cant say I will ever cheer him on but he's more than earned my respect.

52Paddy

29th August 2009, 22:40

I mentioned that he has been beaten by 2 teammates already. Where the hell did you bring out the rest of his teammates? It is obvious you have an obsession to protect your hero, but lets ignore irrelevant issues.

You didn't elaborate on which ones so I had to do the homework myself.

Who cares? I was only talking about two teammates who had beaten him. So why bring out Yoong and Tarso? To waste my time?

See above.

Well, better late than never. If you ever were to apply to any university (unlikely), would you make references to wikipedia in your dissertations?

No, I won't. And I'm starting my enrolement in uni tomorrow, as a matter of fact. But thanks for the encouragement :)

Trulli did not drive in all races for Renault, so the only fair thing to do is to count only the races they were together in the same team. If we do that, then Trulli beat Alonso in 2004.
Of course, we can do the opposite thing, in which case Irvine totally destroyed that Schumacher fellow in 1999

I see where you're coming from and respect what you're saying. Though I look beyond the statistics and I don't think you necessarily do. Which is fine, but going to create a contrast in opinion. For one, I would look at Trulli's experience and weight it up against Alonso's, at the time. This doesn't mean anything to you, but to me, it makes a big impact on the stats. Alonso had half the experience of Trulli.

He was driving the best car on the grid, he had every chance to win the title, he was not disadvantaged in any way at all.

Same thing again here. I would say he was disadvantaged. Maybe by his own actions, but none the less disadvantaged by the mess he was in at McLaren.

Yeah, Piquet was taking that renault to the limit and driving brilliantly, but it was that Alonso guy who was able to make the worst car on the grid be able to fight for podiums. What a hero. What a man. What a HERO.

Driving brilliantly? Taking it to the limit? He didn't know his own limits. He made many driver errors even this year. I don't consider Alonso a hero either. I just don't think your comments are justified.

How do you know Grosjean was pushing and Alonso was not? Tell me. What reason did he have for pushing? No way to get to points, no car nearby. Why would he push?
Tell me.

I hold up my hand on that one. Good man.

The only scraping the barrel is you trying to make up things that never were to hype up Alonso.
Fact is that both Trulli and Hamilton beat Alonso in WDC standings. That is a fact. You know what a fact is?

No, I'm not trying to hype up Alonso. I just don't like you bashing him. I think you're jumping to conclusions too early. Grosjean has a decent debut and suddenly you think Alonso is being "shown up" by him. You're entitled to you're opinion and if you think that the good for you. But then continuing to slate a good chunk of his career is where the line is drawn. He's twice a World Driver's Champion and he beat Michael Schumacher hands down! May I ask what you think of Nigel Mansell?

If you dont want me making fun of you, then improve the quality of your posts.

Thanks Garry. I realise I made some mistakes back there...saying stuff without proper evidence and all. My overall viewpoint stays the same however. That is, Grosjean won't be the third team-mate to beat Alonso. I'm pretty happy with the quality of my posts. And this has been an interesting discussion. I'm not going to change just for you buddy. That's the way I am.

For the record, I'm not an Alonso fan. I'm not a fan of anybody. I just like to see a good race. :)

jens

30th August 2009, 09:26

ioan

30th August 2009, 09:40

Shame that Romain got unlucky at Spa qualifying. He was very close to Alonso, but Badoer ruined his last lap. While Alonso was ahead of Badoer on track and managed to squeeze into Top15 on his last attempt, Grosjean didn't get the same chance. :(

All down to Badoer feeling he's Superman and can cheat on the laws of physics. Bet Grosjean wouldn't have said anything positive about Bady!

Tazio

30th August 2009, 15:21

Alonso slower than Grosjean
Yep RG whips Fred's @$$ up and down the track all weekend again :dozey:
:laugh: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :laugh:

Steve2009

29th September 2009, 05:45

gloomyDAY

29th September 2009, 07:25

Seems pretty silly in retrospect :laugh: G-Dubya being G-Dubya again.

I guess Romain having difficulty with warming up his brakes during qualifying really had Alonso running for the hills. Oh yeah, I don't like Princesa de Asturia Alonsita either but at least I'm willing to recognize his talent. I sniff another WDC for the boys in scarlet next year.

Dave B

29th September 2009, 08:08

What gloomyDay said :up:

I'll never be an Alonso fan and it pains me to admit sometimes that he's a genuine world-class driver and very possibly the best of the current grid.

Grosjean may one day adapt to F1 and even become brilliant, but he's got a while to go before there's a justification for saying Alonso's slower!

wedge

29th September 2009, 12:11

G-Dubya being G-Dubya again.

I guess Romain having difficulty with warming up his brakes during qualifying really had Alonso running for the hills. Oh yeah, I don't like Princesa de Asturia Alonsita either but at least I'm willing to recognize his talent. I sniff another WDC for the boys in scarlet next year.

He had brake problems all weekend.

His brakes overheated and was told to park it and retire early.

gloomyDAY

29th September 2009, 17:09

He had brake problems all weekend.

His brakes overheated and was told to park it and retire early.

:talk:

wedge

29th September 2009, 23:27

:talk:

Please enlighten me why parking the car early in the race because of brake problems is utter BS?

gloomyDAY

30th September 2009, 02:04

Please enlighten me why parking the car early in the race because of brake problems is utter BS?Maybe because it wasn't a brake problem that was hampering Romain. Could have been his incompetence behind the wheel of that Renault. Princesa Alonsita didn't have a problem with his brakes all weekend long.

wedge

30th September 2009, 12:11

Maybe because it wasn't a brake problem that was hampering Romain. Could have been his incompetence behind the wheel of that Renault. Princesa Alonsita didn't have a problem with his brakes all weekend long.

Because Alonso never had a problem all weekend.

Grosjean had minimal running in FP2 because of mechanical issues.

wedge

5th October 2009, 11:56

Our friend Garry Walker has been rather quite on here recently! :D

Garry Walker

6th October 2009, 13:27

Garry Walker

6th October 2009, 13:28

Our friend Garry Walker has been rather quite on here recently! :D

Well, my question, which was "will he be the third teammate to beat Alonso" has been answered, he hasnt been able to match his pace in the last two races, but at monza he was pacewise quite close.

Steve2009

6th October 2009, 17:37

Well, my question, which was "will he be the third teammate to beat Alonso" has been answered, he hasnt been able to match his pace in the last two races, but at monza he was pacewise quite close.Grosjean is the poster-child of the need for in season testing!
I think his future in f1 is very promising, but by this years rules he just got thrown to the wolves.

DiegoMartinez

6th October 2009, 22:34

Well, We can't say Grosjean is better than Alonso. Grosjean made one good racing...

Anyone have to be the best driver on twenty racings to be the World Champion. and Even so in many cases the driver never achieves the title... Gilles Villeneuve is the greatest example... ;)